@@Dabhach1 He was joking. The point of the joke was that in the past most people didn't care so much about the nuances of liturgy. Priests had to study liturgical format, and liturgical theologians dedicated their time to the study, but most lay people were not concerned. The fact that so many people today are obsessed with liturgy is a sign that this is more of a fad than anything... People say they're concerned with liturgical theology, but actually they're just trying to differentiate themselves from what they perceive as changes in Church that make them uncomfortable, eg. Vatican II.
Trinidad Raj Well, thanks for taking the time to explain to me what I think, especially since I was under the illusion that Catholic teaching could not be changed, and that Vatican II DIDN'T change it.
Same. I never felt like I truly worshiped or adored God or practiced any sort of true Holy reverence to the Living God until I attended a Latin Mass. I was moved and it sealed my choice in converting. I felt like I hit the jack pot. I had no idea there was any controversy prior to attending the TLM and I am deeply saddened that this is even an issue in the Church.
The N.O liturgy growing up “shaped” me into an Atheist. As a convert back to the Church I can say if it wasn’t for the TLM I would have become Eastern Orthodox. This was mainly because of the irreverential experience of the N.O in my area and my ignorance of of Church history at the time of my conversion. I’m sure this is a very common story.
It's the opposite for me as a Protestant already on RCIA classes to become Catholic. In this _Novus Ordo,_ like you Catholics call it, I see many similarities with Protestant churches so I feel like home, a greater version of my home (of course it's not "my home" but you get what I mean). But I'll go even further, to be honest it's not a big deal to me the TLM and the NO issue, I wasn't aware of this things prior to deciding to become Catholic, I was convinced by the theological truths that the Catholic Church was the one founded by Christ, I'll follow the Church because the Church follows Christ and I want to follow Christ. Greetings from South Carolina. 👋
@@NorthCountry84 Not only was I lacking everything you mentioned but was also fighting off a very intense, self destructive and hostile way of life. Any form of sentimentality would have been off putting when I was initially converting back, therefore only with the experience of the intensity within the TLM (I was also discerning between Orthodoxy at the time) did I take everything you just mentioned seriously. Like an Icon, the TLM was a window into Heaven.
I was raised in a Sephardic Jewish household, my grandfather and those of his generation were able to immigrate from Salonika Greece before the Nazi's took over the city because Angelo Roncalli (Later Pope John XIII, later Pope St. John) provided forged baptismal certificates since the US had a very strict limit on Jews entering the States. My father wanted to be and do all things American, he did not want to speak Ladino or Greek, nor go to Services in Hebrew. We have a saying in Judaism, "What the son want's to forget, the grandson wants to remember." I cherish the hymns and prayers from my youth in Hebrew. Skip to College, where I was first to encounter Jesus having been the Messiah. It was a protestant College, and the different denominations reflected on campus all had different teachings of who Jesus was, and what He meant when He said something. The only thing they could agree on was the Catholic Church was not Christian. So I took the anti-catholic ideas they told me, and started reading from Catholic sources. I found not only was what they claimed about Catholic teaching not correct, but in the Catholic Church Jesus was not a person from the past as they spoke of Him as being, but the Living Messiah. I converted and went to a local parish one Sunday (Sorry guys it was a liberal Jesuit parish) where the Liturgy I attended substituted the elements with Tortilla Chips and Beer, being more relevant to the Hispanic Massgoers at the Spanish Mass, Having read myself into the Church by the means of Cardinal Newman, Ronald Knox and others who wrote before the Council, it was a perfect set up for me to look elsewhere. I started going to a couple local Eastern Rite Catholic parishes, and gained a love for the Divine Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil. From there I learned of the SSPX, and attended their seminary. After Ordination (which was a tough road as there was a lot of Anti-semetism there, but being Sephardic with a Spanish name I was able to keep quiet and get through it all, I was still not at ease, with the lack of unity not just with the Holy See, but with one group that held to a private Sede view, and only used the Missal and Breviary of Pius X, others who accepted the Holy Week Rites simplified by Pope Pius XII, but rejected those changes of John XXIII. The Supporters of the 1962 Missal who rejected the Missal of Paul VI. No unity there either. What we had learned in Sacramental Theology clearly supported that what was absolutely essential to a valid Mass, does exist in the framework of the Missal of Paul VI. So it's valid. Paul the VI being a Catholic Pope, had every right to issue a missal, and reform the rites, as long as he maintained a Catholic Rite, which he did. So I returned to full communion with the Holy See, and after a couple years found a bishop who was willing to regularize me and use me for those who wanted the Traditional Rites, as well as permit me the faculties to learn and with a Ruthenian Bishop celebrate the Byzantine Rite. After a recent surgery, when I was unable to travel to the sites where the TLM is celebrated in the Diocese, let alone stand and offer the Mass, I offered Mass in private at home in my wheelchair. Sundays, and Holy Days I did not feel I should isolate myself, so my neighbors (one of the sons, who is a seminarian with the local diocese (New Rite) served my daily Latin Mass at home, while his classes were suspended due to COVID, I joined the family and rode to the local parish where while I sat in the Sanctuary, I did not concelebrate the Mass, as I have never been trained in the new rite. But I did assist at Mass and receive communion there because any Mass Latin Rite or Eastern Rite, celebrated in a rite authorized by the Church, in communion with the local ordinary is not the action of the priest celebrating, but the Action of Christ Jesus Himself. All the Sacraments are the Actions of Christ. I as a priest, or any other priest who Christ has shared His priesthood with may be essential to a valid Sacrament being confected. But it is not our Action... So while I am more comfortable with the Traditional Latin Rite, and the Byzantine (BTW I've also been to the Armenian, Coptic, Syrian Rites, (both Indian and Chaldean) as well as the Maronite, and the same goes for them) All are the opportunity for us to stand or kneel at the Foot of the Cross, and recline at the Last Supper, as Christ transcends time and space and brings to us those events so we can participate in His actions for our Salvation. As a Traditionally minded priest, I hope the readers here, like at my own homilies, got a good snooze, I know this was a long epistle, but at least you can scan it, rather than hear it thundering from the pulpit. Pray for me a sinner and all priests.
Lex Orandi Lex Credendi… Mass conducted Ad Orientem (Priest facing away from the altar) tells the congregation without any words who we are worshipping and the reverence we have for the true Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior without even opening the mouth. I have been attending the TLM for six months now. I took my non-Catholic father to his first TLM and the following day, he told me he wanted to become Catholic. Deo Gratias.
Well this was a pleasant surprise. Usually America Magazine treats us traditional leaning Catholics unfairly, but this was a very open and fair conversation. I am 22 years old and was educated and brought to the faith by awesome Jesuits in my Jesuit high school (shout out Belen Jesuit). I was not initially “trad” but as I learned more about the faith, I quickly began to search for communities that took Catholicism seriously. I am sorry to say that the reality is many (not all or even most, but many) U.S. Novus Ordo parishes do not take our Faith seriously. They have sloppy liturgy, a congregation that cares little about the unchanging doctrine of the church, and zero spiritual life. They are glorified country clubs and make no demands on their congregation. I’ll put it simply, many communities have lost faith in Christ and His Church. I know that is a controversial and difficult thing to say, but it is true. I know it because these were the churches I grew up in. It is this lack of a real challenge and incessant pandering to the youth, forgetting how much our OWN TRADITION has to offer, that is why I stopped believing in Middle School (I came back thanks in part to faithful Jesuits in High School). Many young people are like me. But unlike me, many of them will not come back. Fundamentally, this is not a TLM vs Novus Ordo issue. I’m confident of this. The issue is that young Catholics want to go to liturgies that are rooted in authentic Catholic tradition (so they don’t feel like they’re being pandered to by excessive inculturation), that are trying to be beautiful and reverent (not just minimum effort like one dude with a guitar on a SUNDAY MASS), and that shows them something of the Divine. The TLM offers them this, Novus Ordo’s across the country have not. The Jesuit way to respond to this is to do what these two Fathers did. LISTEN. Don’t cancel us and label us as rigid. We are trying to help the Church reach out to the youth. The way to reach out is to offer them the solid rock of tradition and doctrine while our world spins out of control, not pander to them and “dumb down” the Faith. We might need a little “rigid” these days, I know I did. If you read this, thank you. And God bless these two Jesuits and the Jesuit order.
Javier Mariscal - I could not agree with you more. You have put it beautifully. I do not attend the TLM as it is not offered in my parish. The NO liturgies in my parish, although not irreverent, I don't know how to put it. The few times I have attended the TLM I saw the faith and reverence of the parishioners, it was incredible. The guitar masses, although in my parish they mean well. In other parishes there are lot of abuses. And in general the difference in the TLM and the NO is night and day. Although to me the TLM and the NO are valid as they both offer the Eucharistic miracle which to me is the essence of the mass. The way it is presented is completely different in terms of the way our youth is perceiving it. In my view, in the NO many people miss the two miracles occurring at the mass, in the TLM, I believe, no one present misses that. Why would Pope Francis in essence "forbid" the TLM, I'll never know or understand. However, we catholics have to be very carful, specially on the web, to be disrespectful toward Pope Francis - He is the Pope and therefore deserve respect. We may not agree with him 100% of the time but we don't want to damage the place that the Chair of Peter has in our faith. I'm afraid that in the future, people won't see the Chair of Peter the way we have seen it for over 2,000 years and that would be very sad as the Papacy is what has kept us together as the Church of Christ that we are. Our protestant brethren don't have that, and today are divided into over 3,500 sects. We must defend the Papacy at all cost. I pray that all Jesuits will some day be like these two, God bless them and also our Holy Father Francis.
@@Winston-op5de Thank-you for your good word. At first, in regards to Pope Francis, something was just a little bit off in regards to this Pope. But when he was opening a lot of cans of 🪱🐛 worms, including this one in regards to the TLM, then, I was very worried that it would create a liturgy civil war. Is this what Pope Francis want, a liturgy civil war? 🤔 The best we can do is PRAY for his spiritual 🙏 conversion to Christ. Have a good, blessed, safe, and wonderful Thanksgiving Day. Thank-you ahead for your response. God Bless.
I’m a recent convert from Protestantism. (All the main denominations on my journey to Rome) I was attracted to the Latin Mass on the other side of town but had a beautiful Novus Ordo Parish 5 minutes from my house. I’m a big proponent of going to Churches in my community, because as an Evangelist in the street, it’s better to be able to bring people off the street to a Church near by. But I ended up loving both Masses and when I was at one, I missed the other. 😂 So I prayed and asked God where did He want me to go? A few hours later, my local Parish called me and asked me to come by to meet me. God would confirm that would be my home. Sometimes I wonder what life would be like a TLM but I also thank God for the opportunity to grow in Holy Tradition and get to share these truths at my local Parish. If everything leaves the NO Churches, who will be able to grow alongside those new converts or Catholics who don’t know what they believe like that? I consider it a call from God to stay rooted in my NO Parish and live out tradition to my best by God’s grace. And I’m not a super hero or think I’m something special like I’m going to save the world, but I do enjoy this mission to serve in my community, no matter the liturgical scenario. And thanks be to God, but my Church has a very reverential Novus Ordo Mass. I’ve had many cases where the Lord has spoken to me and have witnessed supernatural events in my Parish during Mass. So it works out. 😊 I do understand some NO Masses are a little looney and it makes it hard for some to side with my perspective. My heart and prayers go out to those who have to endure that. I really do pray for them. But we have to understand that the V2 is a valid council and it’s up to us to stand for truth and tradition. It wasn’t meant to be easy but Jesus will see us through it all.
I, too, am a recent convert, and I greatly appreciate the NO mass. My pastor is a former Baptist, but you would never know it by the way he leads an absolutely reverential mass. As a teenager I attended Latin mass a few times with my girlfriend, who was a cradle Catholic, but found it strange and not easy to participate in, because I did not know Latin. I think it would be nice if parishes would be allowed to offer either or both, as what works best for their parish. I hope I never have to attend a Catholic mass that is presented like a Protestant evangelical service.
Beautifully said. I, too, stuck to a reverent NO parish rather than flee. Sometimes, you have to present liturgical issues to the Parish Council. One of ours was reducing talking in church. Word got out and people stopped talking before Mass. Covid helped. Thanks
Wasn't v2 a pastoral council ?, yes it was , the fruits of this debacle are clear going on 60 years. That a NO has to be labeled as reverent shows the problem that they are not as reverent as they should be. At mass we are at the foot of the cross, that is found in the TLM , no so much,at the NO. Look at a mass from 1965 then one from 1975 the loss of reverence and piety is obvious.
@@RickW-HGWT , how's the fellowship after Mass and throughout the parish outside of Mass? Or is the Mass a private devotion? Does your priest's homily challenge you to apply the Gospel in your daily lives? Do you take up collections for the poor?
Recently a priest told me that when he was in 8th grade in 1966 his pastor asked him "to compose" the Eucharistic prayer for their 8th grade graduation mass. It seems that ever since then priests can do whatever they want with the Mass. You can do whatever you want, as long as it isn't the Latin Mass.
@@oliverclark5604 I don't have a clue what your reply means and I don't want to misinterpret it. My point is that, when the worship is God centered, we are of one heart and mind. I attend the TLM, others attend the NO. I have no judgement of them - no war. I just know that the TLM is where God wants me and I have found an unity with Christ and others there. Isn't that the goal? Why don't we just rejoice that people go to Mass - that they honor the Lord's day. I don't understand your, what it appears to be negative reply. Rejoice that more people are going to the TLM. I rejoice as I see these Masses booming - despite what Pope Francis thinks.
All I can say, in all honesty, is that attending the TLM with the SSPX saved both my faith and my sanity. As a result I think that those who wish to attend the TLM should be left totally in peace to do so. What is happening now to so many TLM parishes is outright persecution which is perplexing when there is so much talk from Rome on mercy and smelling of the sheep. What our forefathers held as sacred cannot suddenly become bad, dangerous, evil and forbidden. If it was good enough for countless Saints, then it is good enough for us. Finally, as Archbishop Vigano said recently "The Tridentine Mass is not going to go anywhere" or words to that effect. Trying to crush it is futile. So just let it be in peace. People like me drive 2 hours in total every Sunday to get to it. We make huge sacrifices to attend it so we're not going to abandon it as easily as people might think. Leave us be. It is that simple.
I joined a traditional parish because of all the problems I was seeing in the Novus Ordo parish I was a member of and in those I visited. The biggest issue was a lack of reverence during mass, especially in the handling of the Eucharist. Some of the worst were celebrated by Jesuit Priests. I have attend mass at a lot of Catholic Churches and while there are some N.O. priests who are quite reverent in celebrating mass, there seems to be many more who aren't. I haven't attended an irreverent Traditional Latin Mass yet, and I've been to quite a few.
escabrosa1, Thanks for sharing. I agree with you 100% but I want to add that we have to be careful when we look at people's behavior and see them as being irreverent. When I was in College at a Franciscan university, I used to be very critical of the people who where in the music ministry. Mainly because of their guitars and my interpretation of their reverence. I learned a big lesson when I followed their behavior after mass and found that they were better Catholics than I and many so call "reverent" Catholics were. So many times what we interpret as irreverent (communion in the hand, kind of "dancing" following the guitar music, etc.) is not irreverent at all. I was just being too judgmental. They did not meet my definition of "reverent" or "irreverent". It was just a different way to express themselves. The so call "reverend people in Church" were the opposite outside the church. I was socked, I learned a big lesson. We should not judge how people express themselves in Church. Many people love Jesus and his Church but act differently and we should not judge them. And I'm not talking about the Clown masses or the LGBTQIA+ masses, of curse those are completely wrong. You have to draw the line somewhere.
@escabrosa1 So many get caught up with their own definition of reverential, but we don't decide. What was affirmed as being reverential was affirmed by the early church when, for example, St. Sixtus c. 115 AD told the Church's position: only consecrated hands may touch sacred objects, and Jesus' Apostles were consecrated to touch the Eucharistic host.
It should not be controversial at all. Why is our Jesuit pope shutting it down? My diocese just shut down our TLM this month. Before anyone lambasts me, I am a regular NO attender and very infrequently attended TLM at our cathedral. Again, this controversy should NOT be and as far as I can see, it’s coming from a Jesuit called Paoa Francis. Any thoughts? Make it make sense.
I grew up with the TLM, feeling pretty good if I could tell what page of the missal we were on. It was quiet, all right. The turning point came for me in the 1960s, when I attended a student mass at the University of Bordeaux and was able to participate in singing the beautiful Gelineau psalm in French. I knew Jesus all along, but had a special encounter with him in the Charismatic Movement of the late 1960s. It was as if the light went on. The rather drab new NO liturgy lit up for me, to where every prayer was the voice of the Holy Spirit. I realized, as I never had in my missal-bound childhood, that Jesus speaks to us in the readings at mass. These are as much an anamnesis as is the epiclesis. Those were concepts we had learned in their Latin-derived theological terms like transubstantiation, where the concept of anamnesis was dynamic: we were taken back, or Jesus was brought forward, to where we were there together at mass, here and now. Sadly, I do not think most parishioners grasp this mystery. There's nothing wrong with the NO. What's wrong is the level of catechesis required to clue people in to what's actually happening. Those whose faith has been enlivened by the TLM, however, have to realize that TLM is not an answer. Jesus is the answer. Pulling everyone back to the Tridentine version of the mass will not instill a renewed reverence. Recall, the opposite was more true for me. If it works for you, I'm glad. However, it might be good to take this faith you have found in the Lord Jesus through the vehicle of the TLM needs to be spread out--not in converting people to the TLM, but in helping people realize the reality of the liturgy--NO or TLM--keeping in mind that the first Eucharist was neither TLM or NO, but in Aramaic.
As a 30 yo I took my kids to the TLM at an FSSP parish. It was beautiful but my 4 children 6 and under demanded we keep going back. Children are tired of the noise of the NO. They call TLM a quiet church and pretty church. That should alarm NO priests greatly. They are failing the littlest of us.
I have no problem with the current mass. That said, the latin mass should be available to our pastors, if only to expose our children to the history/roots of the church. If you don't know where you have come from, then it's hard to know where you're going.
One of the challenges of the "secular soup" is the constant bending to what's popular and not sacred. Latin forms the basis for the language of so many people, the sacredness of that powerful foundation has such a power to touch the heart. This may seem obscure but for a few years I had been listening to mantra's in Sanskrit because of the timeless quality of the sounds. I happened across some Latin Gregorian Chants and I could feel my soul transported across time to the heart of Jesus. The sounds of Latin touch the soul much more than any spoken English words.
"Trust the spirit" what spirit?? Sweat lodge ceremony?? Pick your parish?? Pick a priest?? This is some new religion. A religion based on man. Repent and make reparations. Our Lady of Guadalupe ora pro nobis.
Thank God for the Ukrainian Catholic Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and the Tridentine latin Mass. The Ordinary Form, as Pope Benedict XVI called it, shoved me into over a decade of protestantism. The Latin Mass and the Ukrainian Divine Liturgy pulled me back.
I see Jesus weeping over the splendid chasuble and altar. Take care of your hungry neighbors !! It is not a matter of the liturgical manner but of a contrite heart.
It's not about beauty guys, neither is it about what you enjoy. The Mass is a Sacrifice of the Son to the Father. We are there to participate and witness and draw from the merits thanks to God's eternal charity. What's important is giving the very best to God, not to us. Akin to Cane and Abel. They both offered sacrifice but God accepted Abel's because he gave the very best. God deserves the best. So again, it's not really how we feel about the beauty or lack thereof. It's about God, not us
The TLM does not invite, it draws you in and captivates you and all your senses through its beauty and sustains you with its unabashed proclamation of all Catholic doctrines and dogmas. Its leaves you knowing that you have just taken part of something that is truly good, right, and just worship.
We can't say that the TLM proclaims "all" Catholic doctrines anymore. Catholic doctrines include those promulgated during and after the Second Vatican Council-it *is* now official Catholic doctrine that the liturgy is the offering of the entire people of God, priest and laity together. The natural consequence of this is that the laity have to be full and active participants rather than "silent spectators," as Vatican II taught. The TLM faithfully expressed the body of Catholic doctrine that we had from Trent until Vatican II, but it doesn't fully capture all of the doctrinal truths that the Spirit has led us into today.
@@patp5423 What spirit led you to the belief that the mass was the offering of God's people. Christ's sacrifice, his body and blood, the Eucharist is the sole purpose of the mass. Because of this the people offer themselves to God but they are not "The Offering" at mass. During the TLM the people always offered themselves to God. This is symbolized when they stand for the incensing of the congregation, a beautiful and moving participation during the TLM. Vatican II did not change doctrine. On the contrary it seems from your statement that it obscured and confused doctrine. Since the NO many are not even aware of the doctrine of the Real Presence. They seem to think they are the focus of the mass and are there to celebrate themselves and community.
@@luiscampos-ponce7788 That's true, but there is a reason that Sancrosanctum Concilium, Vatican II's Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, instructed the liturgy to be reformed in the way that it was. There is no denying that the congregation has a more active role in the Novus Ordo than in the traditional Latin Mass. And the more active role of the congregation in the Novus Ordo is entirely appropriate from a theological perspective. One can follow the prayers during the TLM, of course, particularly during the liturgy of the Eucharist. But the Church teaches that the human person is a body-soul composite and that worship is expressed not just in one's spirit but also in one's flesh. When the Novus Ordo insists that the people have to verbalize their prayers (rather than merely follow along), when it makes them recite the creed, or repeat back the refrain of the responsorial psalm, or take part in the singing (Vatican II actually forbade musical arrangements that did NOT have a part for the congregation to sing, as was so common in the pre-Vatican II era), it requires that the whole of the person, body and soul, be fully involved in the act of worship.
As I age, I discover that the facts of life are conservative. Christ will never abandon His Church, and its His--- not ours, not a particular Pope, or a religious order. Don't attempt to make His church what "we" want it to be to match this time or the wants of the people today. Have humility and realize it is we who come to worship Him, it's not about us.
I grew up NO and have no problem with it today. When I came back to the faith five years ago, it was NO, then I started going too daily TLM because it was on the way to work at an FSSP parish which I've since joined. I grew more drawn to it simply because of the reverence, the silence. The silence speaks volumes. As St Teresa said the best time to contemplate and adore Jesus is after receiving Him in the eucharist. St Ignatius even says to hear Christ speak, you need silence. The NO doesn't give you that silence. The music doesn't draw you to God, it draws you to yourself. Don't get me wrong, there are some beautiful NO Masses done correctly. If the priest just followed the rubrics and doesn't make it about him because it's about Him. Was Pope Francis harsh? Yes. Why? I believe certain bishops/cardinals hate the TLM. Secondly, in my opinion, there are some, some rad trads school have ruined it for everyone. How? Continually calling some bishops, and even the pope, heretics. Never speaking with charity. So those who wrote the motu proprio, or rather, those who had a hand behind it and it's implementation were harsh. If the TLM is permanently banned and never permitted publicly to be said again, I won't go SSPX, I'll go back NO. But there will always come a new pope.
I have nothing against the SSPX as I believe Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre some day will be declare a Sant by our Church. But since it is not now in communion with the Catholic Church I would not attend the SSPX. I hope and pray that some day they will be again part of your Church and then I'll join them. I also understand their reluctance to come under Rome as at any point they may have to change the beauty of their TLM and have to introduce guitars, etc. At the present time, please let's stay in our church. No one can get me to leave the Church of Christ. Hope and pray that some day we'll be one.
I as a revert who left for a deacde and a little more came back because of the TLM and loved it. That quiet peace suits me as an introvert, the reverence in it especially when all are done from the bottom of heart is beautiful. When the traditiones custodes came out, i was sad for all the faithful brothers and sisters out there, who wanted to be in communion with the see of peter and yet loving the TLM that nourishes their spiritual are being sort of abadoned to luck. They have to wait for their diocese further announcement of the action on their local latin mass community, whether they get to continue, requires special limited time permission, relocation, closing of community, to celebrate latin mass. Their fate are left to be butcher for being faithful and in communion with the See of Peter, while those radicals can choose sides to go. The restrictions doesnt harm the radicals but the faithful that stays. If ever Pope Francis or the Cardinals see this, all ever wanted to say of this latin community is that, this is painful and it hurts much. Luckily enough, my local ordinary reply in email to me for my enquiry, continues to grant permission as it was before the motu proprio until there are no more priests saying the latin mass. Lets us all pray for our brethren suffering in obedience, that this suffering may end soon with an ordinary that cares and are emphathetic.
If your main criteria for ministry is families, from personal experience, TLM masses are full of families with young kids, the vast majority of which are not ideologues, then the conclusion is is that these ppl must be cared for and follow the law of graduality
According to Pope Francis, all religions is the will of God, which meant all ways to worship is the will of God. So, what wrong with worshipping God throught the Traditional Latin Mass? Why did he hammered the sheep of his own flock? If Traditional Latin Mass is wrong, the Church, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus have been wrong.
How can you talk about discernment without taking about the Will of God? In the last 5 minutes of the discussion they talked about going to different parishes and discerning the styles of liturgy 😳 Why on earth would I want to do that?! By suggesting that they admit to the confusion in the Church. No thanks. I'd rather stick with the TLM, the one liturgy I'm sure is pleasing to God in every way.
The problem with these two priests is that they do not know or ignoring the real reason for some Catholics are abandoning the Novus Ordo Mass. IMO the main reason is that these faithful are turned by the way the Mass is celebrated. There are a lot of abuses and a lot of priests think they owners of the liturgy. The faithful are looking for solemnity and sacredness of the liturgy. They disparage the Latin Mass by stating the priest has his back of the congregation but the real reason for that posture is that ‘facing the altar’ or facing the East where Christ would come in His Second Coming. It’s better to have your back on the people thatn having your back on the Lord. I wonder how these two priests celebrate the Mass. Would people feel like they are worshipping or being entertained.
I felt robbed of being a Catholic when I found a church that has the TLM. It took me until my 30s to find a church. I now only go to the TLM. The NO is clearly a Mass made for Baby Boomers, and it shows in the low attendance figures, with only them present.
Same for me as a millennial TLM member. Luckily we have an FSSP parish so we get the mass. It fills up entirely 30 mins before with all young families. While most NO churches are empty. I think that’s why Francis did this. Try to put the final death nail to the faithful.
I really appreciate how you integrated the various Ignatian principles into the dsicussion - a practical guide on "how a Jesuit thinks". Hope you keep doing this in future videos. I learned about (and am still studying up on) the different Catholic churches and ecumenism. One concept that has helped me a lot is the idea of something (e.g., liturgy) being "LIFE-giving" with the meaning of "life" taken in the context of "Jesus is the way, the truth, and the LIFE". If something is life-giving then it brings me closer to Christ, it makes me more like Christ, and it allows me closer communion to the body of Christ - the Church. If I discern that something is life-giving - even if it is differnt from what I am used to doing - then I think it is a good indication that this is where the Spirit is leading.
"Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi" As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live! Here is a major difference I've regularly observed that I've never heard addressed by Novus Ordo priests: in a Traditional Latin Mass setting, the people are mostly silent while in church both before and after Mass (and anytime they're in church). They reverently bless themselves with with holy water and genuflect when they pass before the Tabernacle. Women cover their heads. The atmosphere is prayerful. At Church in the Novus Ordo, people chat and gossip at full volume, rarely genuflect or bless themselves, stand in the aisles while they talk, ignore anyone who's praying, and pretty much ignore the fact that Jesus is present, body, soul, and divinity in the Tabernacle. Even Novus Ordo priests and religious act this way. No one speaks out about it. Talk in the vestibule or outside. Tell me which congregation is more reverent.
As a protestant who used to work with a bunch of Jesuits, I am always grateful for your thoughtful and reflective conversations on hot topics. I have not considered the ways in which having two very different masses could pull a community apart, and I think you for expressing new wants on both sides of this conversation.
I went to a traditional latin mass as a non catholic two weeks ago with a catholic friend and I really enjoyed it. I really appreciate sacred ritual, even rituals not part of my religion, because I love the appeal they make to my desire of mystery when worshipping. I hope the local catholic parishes in my community with the latin mass continue to celebrate in latin so I can visit again with my friend sometime
I'm sick of all this modernism forced onto us by the baby boomer generation. I want traditionalism. I want the Catholicism that existed for 1900 years before they ruined it.
The traditional Latin Mass developed under the guidance of the Holy Ghost over centuries is simply the means par excellence to worship. The Novus Ordo is a hot mess concocted in four years by men intent on fundamentally transforming the Church.
if you check up until the council of trent, the latin mass did not exist in any coherent form,. it was what it was where ever it was and in most cases non existent as the mass was actually said in the vernacular in the far reaches of christendom. trent wanted a unification. that was why that happened . but saying that the latin mass was a growing stable entity up until trent was not correct. and even since then, 500 years, it has had its variants. the dominicans have their own format and several other roman forms exist. and then the other 27 types. but yes the NO was started to collect and format a generalized process in the vernacular of the regions. so that the format of the mass was predictable but the language suited the region.
@@leylinegoddess It seems to me the format of the Novus Ordo is anything but predictable, but then I switched to the TLM 35 years ago so that may be just heresay.
I don’t understand why this has to be such a big issue. Growing up my diocese only had two parishes that had TLM. People who wanted to attend that went there and everyone else went to mass at the other parishes without a problem for years!!! This has not become a problem until the last two years. It’s been awful.
Maybe the modernists should leave the TLM alone and allow people who want it to practice it unimpeded? That would be a great start! Then we can work our way to cleaning up the NO masses to make them more reverent. Maybe then the “liturgy wars” will finally quiet down! What do you think?
collingdale1 - Please enough criticism of our Holy Father, he occupies the Chair of Peter so he deserves our respect. Let's criticize ourselves before the criticize others. Let's pray for our Pope Francis.
Traditional Latin Mass has greater Reverence than Novus ordo . In order to two communities to integrate would best; the Pope gives plenary indulgence every first Sunday of month attended Traditional Latin Mass for those Novus ordo community and vice versa for the Traditional Latin community. This will being closer both communities and respect for each other😊!
It’s hard to understand that the Latin was the official language of the universal church for centuries. Was that a source of disunity ? I don’t think so. The ritual itself was conducted with so much care, because it was sacred and still is. The Vatican council has been trying to “protestantaise”the church under the name of ecumenism. It amuses me how, many young Catholics after exposition and studying the history of the Latin mass became attached to the Tridentine mass. It’s not nostalgia, it’s a way to get in contact with God. I think not everything is pastoral. I think is matter of love. It is true, that a conservative person wants to preserve aspects that the church thought always like: the family and children. The difference between men and women as created by God. The concept of natural law. The consecuentes of a bad sexual education that implies that a child needs father and mother. That abortion can not be a method of “birth control”. The fact that homosexuality is a fact, but with so much preponderance in Western Europe and USA, teaches the concept of “fluidity” or an spectrum that goes from pederasty, polygamy, and other “filias” that due to the cultural environment, we are trapped into accepting and promoting life styles that do not ultimately cause fulfillment and happiness. Everything starts with prayer. The TLM is one way of prayer. Uniformity is not desirable, nor is to subject the people by decrees or commands, under the name of “pastoral”.
Good and fair discussion. I grew up in NO, spent almost all my school years (university included) in Jesuit houses, and I'm very grateful to have a TLM church round the corner. At the centre of worship is God. And great sermons, in love for God, the Church and all about the salvation of our souls. May our next Holy Father abrogate Traditionis Custodes.
We can alleviate some of this issue by actually following the suggested NO liturgy; Latin, organ music, Gregorian chant etc. You put those back in the mass, it's my belief that 80% of complaints about the novus ordo vanish. Because those things bring back the reverential feel of the event. It sets it apart from the mundane. The biggest mistake that the Church made wrt the updated liturgy was giving celebrants too many options (all due respect). And this is coming from someone who is decidedly *not* a trad Catholic
I enjoy the ordinary and extraordinary forms and am enriched by each. I do appreciate the reverence at the TLM parishes and the silences tend to more helpful for my chatterbox mind and provides.
I have seen Extraordinary Ministers abused in every parish near my home. I tried all 3 of them to find a good reverent NO Mass… all finished Mass within 50 minutes because of the overuse. I have witnessed EMHCs BLESSING PEOPLE WITH HOST IN HAND while making the sign of the cross. I have heard from my liturgy director that my home parish has found hosts in pews, on the floor, half missing, in parking lots, and nothing has been done about it. We have guitar masses playing Protestant music while only one plays the organ beautifully… guess which one is full? There’s no war… Vatican 2 was the Holy Spirit saving the TLM and tradition. I’m no prophet, but watch… In 10-20 yrs the only parishes left will be those who offer the TLM or a reverent NO Mass with communion on the tongue. My parish just lost Life Teen for lack of students and it was the best news I’ve ever heard. They’ll return when we return to true Catholicism. And for the record: I’ve read and approve Vatican 2… but WE HAVE TO DO WHAT THE DOCUMENTS SAY!!!
It's like you understand what is drawing us to the TLM but then you turn around and take it away by saying that we're attracted by the liturgy. For me it's about where I can give God his due worship. One liturgy facilitates that while the other hinders and places obstacles. My desire is to worship God the way Justice and Charity demand that I do.
mass is a ritual, the point is to just be there. Delivering mass in Latin allows it to be done in a more pure way. Why doesn't the current pope just come out of the closet and live a happy life as a protestant?
my discernment has repeatedly pushed me to more conservative parishes with latin in the liturgy. If enough people hold reverence and want TLM in their community then why keep it from them? I'm talking to you Bishop Vetter(Helena,MT)
My brother in Christ, I don’t think the Bishop will be seeing this message under the video. I would recommend writing to him in a charitable manner if you haven’t already, and pray and hope. I don’t think it’s necessary to call him out here
I’m stuck somewhere in the middle. While I enjoy TLM, I don’t want that form to be the only way I worship. The music of the Mass in the vernacular for decades seem to be controlled by the so called St, Louis Jesuits. That music was so bland and dull that many, myself included, almost felt as though there was nothing ‘holy’ any more. Mass with that trite music was frankly unedifying. Why is it so hard to find a Mass with music that still speaks of the eternal. I want a Mass in English that brings me a touch of ‘the almighty’ God.
If the Conciliar documents had been implemented properly we wouldn’t have these “wars”. It’s the Paul VI Missal that’s the problem. Put back the altars, and communion rails, return to ad orientem, bring back chant and Latin. None of those changes were the intent of the Council.
As a philosopher, this particular conversation was astoundingly insightful and I think communicated very complex ideas in very understandable terms. Fr. Gilger's point about reframing our liturgical persuasions (for style or community, etc.) as moments of discerning vocation (i.e., am i called to commit to such and such spirituality or such and such community, etc.) is astoundingly beautiful and I think would be a meaningful point of departure for dialogue, ecumenism, and christian education in the Church.
Everyone I know attending TLM believes this whole heartedly. I attended both. 7:38 . The fact of the liturgy forming is why many prefer TLM. TLM is much more Christocentic in the rubric and has more signs, scriptures and meditation time. Praise and thank God in the Liturgies. This formation then teaches us how to act in community.
After almost 3 years attending TLM I feel that I've learned more about Jesus, Mary, Catholicism, Bible, Tradition, History, Saints, Doctrine, Devotions, Vices and Virtues and Works (etc.), than in the previous 20 years attending NO. I still think I know too little, but these jesuits seemed to me to know nothing about the issue they proposed to talk about.
Nicolau Pinto Coelho, Lets face it the Jesuits are very liberal. The were not at their founding, but at one point they became liberal. They are also supesrmart, I want to be fair to the Order. Having said that, in my opinion they are more in their head that in their heart. I maybe 100% wrong. I'm of course making a general statement and when you do that you are never right 100%. So God bless these two wonderful priest. The topic they are covering is of corse a difficult subject and they were very brave to talk about it. That is why you don't hear too many priest talking about it. Unfortunately, some priests that have dealt with it and other "hot" topics have been cancelled by their bishops which is outrageous as they were just Teaching the TRUTH. That is why I support the Organization of Cancelled Priests which have been growing rapidly. The bad priest should be cancelled not the good ones. Specially during a priest shortage. Incredible.
One final comment - and encouragement to priests saying the NO: slow down the tempo; say the prayers more slowly especially the consecration; make sure lay Eucharistic ministers are dressed properly and not chewing gum(which I Have actually seen); and notice at the TLM masses how attention is focused on the tabernacle with alter servers genuflecting every time the pass the tabernacle; at my parish it looks like Grand Central station with lay ministers and priests running back and forth and not paying attention to the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Tabernacle (ever wonder why there is such a low perception of Catholics who believe in the Real Presence?!!!!).
Right on, John. Slowing down is key to a Reverent Mass. And readers knowing how to read and genuflect. Parishioners can be mindful of staying quiet and not dropping kneelers.
I've been attending, almost exclusivly, a 1962 form of the mass since summorum pontificum and belong to a FSSP parish. Practically speaking there's a whole way of life that me an my family have based ourselves around which we cannot really find out side of that parish and it's important to have good support structures for family life. Outside of TLM communities the large Catholic family really isn't a thing anymore. Theoretically speaking I agree the '62 could use reform, my largest reservation is sacrosanctum concilium has great asperations with too many derogations.
I'm glad the traditional mass has helped some people come back to the Church or even strengthen their devotion. I think the heart of the issue here is not wether or not people love traditional liturgies, it's how do those people mature in love of Christ? That is to say, if they keep going to a "traditional liturgy" for the rest of their life, are they maturing in love of Christ or turning inward toward love of the liturgical form itself? May TLM parishes host communities which have become increasingly antagonistic toward the Pope. It goes without saying that this is not a sign of a maturing relationship with Christ. If we grow in love of Christ then we also grow in obedience, as well as trust in Christ's plans for giving the keys to Peter and thus to all those who sit in the seat of Peter, so to speak. It's okay not to always agree with the Pope, but the flagrant gossiping and bad-mouthing of the papacy has to go if we are going to remain a Catholic church. I'm saying this as someone who also fell in love with a traditional liturgy. I do love it, but all the more I love the Holy Trinity. I don't want to dedicate my whole life to just one liturgical format, I want to dedicate my life to the Trinity. That's the difference.
Understand this, Bergoglio hates traditional Catholics and I have the same feelings for him he is heretic who would gladly destroy a vibrant part of the Church. May Christ judge him for hateful behavior
What a wonderful question you pose in "how do we mature in love of Christ?" I was turned off to the TLM because of the background disrespect for the Magisterium. Come on Traditionals! Bishop Barron says that denial of Vatican ll should be anathema to a Traditional. Ignorance of Catholic Social Teaching should be anathema to a Traditional. Dare I say the USCCB needs to unite around Cardinal O Connor's Consistent Life Ethic?
@@michaelkraft218 please don’t give me that bullshit suddenly with Bergoglio progressives are all about the magisterium, when under JP2 and BXVI your side was constantly going against it. Schism is inevitable
This is a great point. All those who are raging that they were robbed of the TLM when they were younger need to understand that the grass is not perfectly green on that side either. My wife and I both grew up in traditional parishes/communities, and while there were definitely good things, there is undeniably a sense of superiority that makes its way into other facets of life. I love the traditional liturgy but if you hold yourself above other Catholics because you exclusively attend that, and your mind and heart are not turned toward Christ, it can quickly become a kind of idol. A priest friend of mine said that before Vatican 2, everything was all head and no heart (follow the rules and go to your nice liturgy, but no interior disposition or real devotion), and then after, everything became all heart and no head (everything is about feelings and nothing is about learning to truly love God). What we need is a blend of the two. Don't think yourself better than your neighbor because you attend a certain liturgy if your mind and heart are not directed to God. The channel The Logos Project is doing great work on discussing these topics.
@@andym5995 Everyone and every community has their own temptations to sin. For all time, having the Truth has been used by Satan to tempt people into pride (a common refrain among protestants is about arrogant Catholics). Maturing in love for Christ can be achieved by solely attending the Latin Mass (as shown by the innumerable Saints, please pray for us). I attend both Novus Ordo and Latin Mass (whenever I can get it). It is clear to me that the Tradition that the church worked on for centuries is more perfect than the Mass which was made only 60 years ago, in an attempt at ecumenism(?). It is not wrong for the Church Hierarchy to admit that the post conciliar innovations (not the council) have not worked and have been detrimental to the faiths of thousands of Catholics. It is a bit like the Church's teaching on mixed Marriage, it is permitted but should be discouraged as it will ultimately open you up to watering down the faith to our children. We need to return to the Faith of our Fathers.
I don't know anyone under the age of 55 that goes to New Mass, but I know over a hundred that go to the Latin Mass. Ironically, the New Mass is for old people that failed to "get with the times".
I am under 55 and the Latin Mass is the only reason I attend Mass. In my opinion the "Modern Church" has been tainted and when I attend Mass it is to connect with God. Not to be indoctrinated!
Some are moved by elaborate, intricate patterns; some by plainness. Some favor continuity; some favor wayfaring and change. Some behold Providence in the majestic and awesome; some hear God's whispers in the mundane.
not if the people are fiddling behind the priests back, flipping through prayer books, praying the rosary and not paying attention. i have seen, in my youth, literally drunken women sitting in the pew, just sitting trying to put her gloves on. she was bodily at mass with her family but not there otherwise. i have seen people sleep through the latin mass. going to church was a perfunctory duty, not an act of worship. i am reasonably certain that is why a lot of the mass liturgy changed. to stop the mechanical performance of the congregation. latin was never thrown out of the NO. it can be used in several places. mass must not be just an act of standing and doing your own thing. i can be said in the round, in latin and with gregorian chant and very reverently. that was what was intended. you are not just a body showing up because it was a mortal sin to miss mass or guilt flavored religion. NO said people will be the content of the worship of the eucharist in the mass. we will know what and why we are participating.. god probably wouldn't care if you showed up in your pajamas. we cannot be snobs.
@@leylinegoddess lol 😂 people fall asleep now and don’t pay attention. The posture of the priest, facing the people or leading them toward God, I think has little effect.
@@paulcarter996 there are only 30 attendees where i go to church. one would never dare to nod off. everyone would see you. we face each other like in a monastery choir. we have no kneelers. we stand and we participate.
Not really very enlightening. More like "make a bishop Barron style video" Two guys who would rather avoid the topic give fairly superficial observations that end up in making liturgy a Rorschach test. Also, the "fast facts" are incorrect. The TLM is called "Tridentine" because the liturgy was codified officially, it was essentially the same going back to Gregory the Great in the 5th century. The priest is oriented towards God and leads the congregation, he doesn't "face away" and ironically the Novus Ordo as written has the priest "Ad Orientem". Of course there are vast differences in the quality and character of the prayers and symbolic gestures between the two liturgies as well.
@@leylinegoddess Latin was the vernacular language till about 800 AD. Latin remained the language of the liturgy in the Latin rite until 1970. All that Gregorian Chant and the Hymns of Aquinas etc are all in Latin.
Abit disappointed you didn’t mention the idea of blending parts of the TLM into the NO such as reciting some basic prayers such as the Our Father, Creed, and Communion prayers such as the Lamb of God in Latin. We have such a rich tradition that was totally ignored post Vatican II. Let’s draw upon that tradition. Also giving parishioners the option of kneeling to receive our Lord and saying the NO facing the east are other steps that would be well received by those seeking more of the sacred.
I am sure that if either of these thoughtful gentlemen had been in a position allowing him to cancel the Mass that assists a substantial number of Catholics to know God more clearly, love Him more dearly, and follow Him more nearly, that option would have been instantly rejected as a gross infringement of the liberty of Catholics to discern for themselves. One of the speakers touched on a matter that, I think, has not been sufficiently considered. The Catholic community this pope is trying to talk about is not, and should not be, tied to the parochialism of the present. There are people for whom the Novus Ordo, especially as practised in some parishes, stands as a great barrier cuttting them off from their fellow Catholics who once worshipped in the traditional Mass and could not have imagined any other.
@@michaelkraft218 'Godspell' borrowed them too - from an original prayer of St Richard of Chichester (b. 1197). It was one of the earliest prayers I heard after I began school and I was reminded of it later, in 1967, by a semi-retired Jesuit priest during a retreat. All best, C.
So much discussion of the TLM and Vatican Ii, and absolutely NO discussion or even mention, of "Sacrosanctum Concilium," the central operating document of the Second Vatican Council on the Liturgy? Perhaps we should start there, no?
The Novus Ordo mass has been the rule of the day for half a century now. That half a century has coincided with a wholesale emptying out of Catholicism in virtually every way, at every level, pretty much everywhere outside of Africa. We have fewer parishioners, fewer donations, fewer priests, fewer nuns, fewer marriages, fewer babies, fewer baptisms, fewer first communions, pretty much everything. I'm not suggesting you can lay each and every part of that at the feet of the new mass, but I don't see how you avoid laying the blame for at least much of it there. You judge a tree by its fruits - that is, its results. Whatever the intentions were, the fruits appear to be mostly rotten. If you want to resolve the "liturgy wars", then the NO and its most fervent adherents need to demonstrate that its far more compatible with the maintenance of traditional Catholic orthodoxy than it presently seems to be.
I came into the Church with the Novus Ordo. I likewise was in formation in a seminary that exclusively taught Novus Ordo, for a diocese whose bishop refused to train his seminarians in anything other than Novus Ordo. And here are my thoughts, for all the ten cents they’re worth. The TLM is not the only way to celebrate the Mass with reverence. The TLM is likewise not immune from complacency and disrespect. My old pastor used to tell of how rushed the TLM was in his parish before the Council, which inevitably caused mistakes to occur that people largely didn’t notice. The Novus Ordo, to him, allowed him to slow down and sink the meaning of the Mass into his soul. He is a better priest because of it. And there is nothing wrong with that. On the flip side, the Novus Ordo was coopted by some to be absolute perversions of a Mass. A parish near my home used to have Masses done with literal sock puppets used at some point; I have seen the consecration bells used as a processional instrument, and flag twirlers in the background. I have seen parishes that forewent the Homily altogether to display a pageant in the middle of a Mass, and one parish that won’t even begin the Mass in the name of the persons of the Trinity. These aren’t typical by any means, but they’re not unheard of either. If Pope Francis cared enough about the Council that he wishes to safeguard its message and implementation across the universal church, then he ought to have dealt an equal hand to both extremes: To those who use the TLM to reject the Council, and to those who use the Novus Ordo to deny the reverence and devotion Our Lord deserves in His Church. If he had done that, I wouldn’t be nearly as critical of him. What he has done by only going after the TLM is perpetuate the liturgy war in the Church needlessly. Excessive abuses in the Novus Ordo are overlooked, yet the TLM is suppressed because some see it as a rejection of Vatican II and all it stands for, even if for most people that’s not the case. It paints a picture that Pope Francis thinks a hypothetical schism is more important to deal with than a literal heresy breaking out across the United States. This is a war that the Holy Father perpetuates, though perhaps not intentionally. We need clear, decisive leadership to bring both the TLM and the Novus Ordo into what Christ intends them to be. Until that happens, Pope Francis will be chasing shadows while his home continues to burn around him.
Surprised by this fair presentation. Educated by the Jesuits, I switched to the TLM because all the other churches were closed in 2020. We are not rolling back anything with 110 altar boys at my FSSP church. We travel many miles. What altered my opinion was the secrecy of Bugnini. What needs to improve is transparency. None of us will leave the Church; we just resist servile obedience.
Thank you for this very balanced conversation. As a European I often worry about the passion with which American TLM devotees are pushing towards a schism. There's plenty of very reverend Novus Ordo masses here in Rome and we often say or sing prayers in Latin. I love attending the tridentine mass at Trinità dei Pellegrini but I also like understanding the Gospel reading. I hope the two styles can continue to exist. I like both.
Although the new Mass is a major problem it goes much deeper. If interested in finding out more what Vatican 2 has done to the Catholic church reading "Work of Human Hands" by Fr. Cekada will help. Its really sad what has happened to the Church I hope to see the true faith back in all Cities and Country's someday.
Isn't it a bit myopic to attempt to discuss a liturgy that you don't know how to say or experience? Just imagine two Latin clergy attempting to critique the Byzantine Rite. THAT is the level of disconnect and disaffection that Traditionalists feel after the Motu Proprio.
I could be wrong, but I think Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI is in agreement with Pope Francis. Surely, it's an unprecedented situation of having a living former Pope. Pope Benedict gave license to the TLM. Pope Francis had to discipline it, not abolish it.
@@michaelkraft218 oh listen to the liberals who have been dissenting from Rome for decades before Bergoglio..may the war in the Church soon turn hot.... imagine no liberals its easy if you try
Jesus said this to the Samaritan woman at the well about worship: "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.’" (John 4:24) I've only been to a TLM once years ago, and found it beautiful. I also find the N.O. Mass beautiful. The point is, what does God find beautiful? Isn't it He who is receiving our worship? He is concerned with the attitude and sincerity of our hearts. He is concerned with our zeal and love for Him. He is concerned with our love one for another. He is concerned about whether we are welcoming to outsiders who need to hear the Gospel and be saved.
What is a faithful man to do or say - “doesn’t need to look the same” but just can’t look one way?! Why do you think you guys need to rehabilitate your image?!
Let me throw a grenade into this! The Roman Communion has, including the Latin, about 23 different Rites. Each has it's own Missal. And the Byzantines have three Divine Liturgy/Mass forms:. SS. James, Basil and John Chrysostom. Later two. Lost of singing, bells and smells. All of these Rites, Missals and Forms are done reverently. Some of these forms are being martyred into extinction in the Middle East. Maybe in this prideful, gnostic liturgical war, we need to look at and love the Eastern Rites in Communion. BTW, in the end of the Anaphora of St. Basil, there are prayers to prevent division in the Church. All need to take a look at it. And take the Doc's medicine. (St. Basil is a Doctor of the Church.)
As beautiful as the modern TLM is, as well as reverent NO's, you bring up an important point. It's simply hard to go to Holy Mass at a place where enough of the congregation says you're barely Catholic and basically Orthodox if your an Eastern Catholic, as well as the claims that the re-unification of the Eastern Churches with Rome was a necessary evil (people want to talk Moto Propio, but are not aware of the historical restrictions of Eastern Traditions by Roman Bishops). The SSPX and even ICK and FSSP perspectives among the Clergy concerning Eastern Catholics are not charitable for the most part. Additionally, I have been treated in a most unwelcome manner in some circles, since many members of EF congregations I know act as though my attending the Divine Liturgy and simply existing as a Melkite Catholic is detracting in their efforts to scare or shame NO goers into attending the EF. It's really weird and frustrating. While I attend to worship, and not to socialise, these problems in EF Churches need to be addressed at some point. It's so toxic.
"I didn't know anything about the liturgy till I was ordained."
Thank you for the honesty about seminary formation!
It sounded like a boast. This is why so many Catholics have such a massive problem with the order.
@@Dabhach1 He was joking. The point of the joke was that in the past most people didn't care so much about the nuances of liturgy. Priests had to study liturgical format, and liturgical theologians dedicated their time to the study, but most lay people were not concerned. The fact that so many people today are obsessed with liturgy is a sign that this is more of a fad than anything... People say they're concerned with liturgical theology, but actually they're just trying to differentiate themselves from what they perceive as changes in Church that make them uncomfortable, eg. Vatican II.
Trinidad Raj Well, thanks for taking the time to explain to me what I think, especially since I was under the illusion that Catholic teaching could not be changed, and that Vatican II DIDN'T change it.
@@trinidadraj152 what a presumption. So typical of liberals
@@trinidadraj152 Vatican 2 has proven to be a galactic failure
The TLM is where I fell in love with Jesus.
Same.
I never felt like I truly worshiped or adored God or practiced any sort of true Holy reverence to the Living God until I attended a Latin Mass.
I was moved and it sealed my choice in converting.
I felt like I hit the jack pot.
I had no idea there was any controversy prior to attending the TLM and I am deeply saddened that this is even an issue in the Church.
@@jennifernelson6187
It doesn't even need to be an issue. TLM Masses are booming. We should rejoice in that
@@jennifernelson6187 Hallelujah!
Same!
Total respect. I love NO, but i have family in TLM and i find no reason to go against that
The N.O liturgy growing up “shaped” me into an Atheist.
As a convert back to the Church I can say if it wasn’t for the TLM I would have become Eastern Orthodox.
This was mainly because of the irreverential experience of the N.O in my area and my ignorance of of Church history at the time of my conversion.
I’m sure this is a very common story.
It's the opposite for me as a Protestant already on RCIA classes to become Catholic. In this _Novus Ordo,_ like you Catholics call it, I see many similarities with Protestant churches so I feel like home, a greater version of my home (of course it's not "my home" but you get what I mean). But I'll go even further, to be honest it's not a big deal to me the TLM and the NO issue, I wasn't aware of this things prior to deciding to become Catholic, I was convinced by the theological truths that the Catholic Church was the one founded by Christ, I'll follow the Church because the Church follows Christ and I want to follow Christ.
Greetings from South Carolina. 👋
@@doceperu1591 Congratulations Brother, welcome home❤️✝️.
It seems that can only happen if you had no inner life of prayer and reading of scripture and other writings if of saints and lack of community.
@@NorthCountry84 Not only was I lacking everything you mentioned but was also fighting off a very intense, self destructive and hostile way of life. Any form of sentimentality would have been off putting when I was initially converting back, therefore only with the experience of the intensity within the TLM (I was also discerning between Orthodoxy at the time) did I take everything you just mentioned seriously.
Like an Icon, the TLM was a window into Heaven.
Glad to hear how you are doing, Dan.
I was raised in a Sephardic Jewish household, my grandfather and those of his generation were able to immigrate from Salonika Greece before the Nazi's took over the city because Angelo Roncalli (Later Pope John XIII, later Pope St. John) provided forged baptismal certificates since the US had a very strict limit on Jews entering the States. My father wanted to be and do all things American, he did not want to speak Ladino or Greek, nor go to Services in Hebrew. We have a saying in Judaism, "What the son want's to forget, the grandson wants to remember." I cherish the hymns and prayers from my youth in Hebrew. Skip to College, where I was first to encounter Jesus having been the Messiah. It was a protestant College, and the different denominations reflected on campus all had different teachings of who Jesus was, and what He meant when He said something. The only thing they could agree on was the Catholic Church was not Christian. So I took the anti-catholic ideas they told me, and started reading from Catholic sources. I found not only was what they claimed about Catholic teaching not correct, but in the Catholic Church Jesus was not a person from the past as they spoke of Him as being, but the Living Messiah. I converted and went to a local parish one Sunday (Sorry guys it was a liberal Jesuit parish) where the Liturgy I attended substituted the elements with Tortilla Chips and Beer, being more relevant to the Hispanic Massgoers at the Spanish Mass, Having read myself into the Church by the means of Cardinal Newman, Ronald Knox and others who wrote before the Council, it was a perfect set up for me to look elsewhere. I started going to a couple local Eastern Rite Catholic parishes, and gained a love for the Divine Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil. From there I learned of the SSPX, and attended their seminary. After Ordination (which was a tough road as there was a lot of Anti-semetism there, but being Sephardic with a Spanish name I was able to keep quiet and get through it all, I was still not at ease, with the lack of unity not just with the Holy See, but with one group that held to a private Sede view, and only used the Missal and Breviary of Pius X, others who accepted the Holy Week Rites simplified by Pope Pius XII, but rejected those changes of John XXIII. The Supporters of the 1962 Missal who rejected the Missal of Paul VI. No unity there either. What we had learned in Sacramental Theology clearly supported that what was absolutely essential to a valid Mass, does exist in the framework of the Missal of Paul VI. So it's valid. Paul the VI being a Catholic Pope, had every right to issue a missal, and reform the rites, as long as he maintained a Catholic Rite, which he did. So I returned to full communion with the Holy See, and after a couple years found a bishop who was willing to regularize me and use me for those who wanted the Traditional Rites, as well as permit me the faculties to learn and with a Ruthenian Bishop celebrate the Byzantine Rite. After a recent surgery, when I was unable to travel to the sites where the TLM is celebrated in the Diocese, let alone stand and offer the Mass, I offered Mass in private at home in my wheelchair. Sundays, and Holy Days I did not feel I should isolate myself, so my neighbors (one of the sons, who is a seminarian with the local diocese (New Rite) served my daily Latin Mass at home, while his classes were suspended due to COVID, I joined the family and rode to the local parish where while I sat in the Sanctuary, I did not concelebrate the Mass, as I have never been trained in the new rite. But I did assist at Mass and receive communion there because any Mass Latin Rite or Eastern Rite, celebrated in a rite authorized by the Church, in communion with the local ordinary is not the action of the priest celebrating, but the Action of Christ Jesus Himself. All the Sacraments are the Actions of Christ. I as a priest, or any other priest who Christ has shared His priesthood with may be essential to a valid Sacrament being confected. But it is not our Action... So while I am more comfortable with the Traditional Latin Rite, and the Byzantine (BTW I've also been to the Armenian, Coptic, Syrian Rites, (both Indian and Chaldean) as well as the Maronite, and the same goes for them) All are the opportunity for us to stand or kneel at the Foot of the Cross, and recline at the Last Supper, as Christ transcends time and space and brings to us those events so we can participate in His actions for our Salvation.
As a Traditionally minded priest, I hope the readers here, like at my own homilies, got a good snooze, I know this was a long epistle, but at least you can scan it, rather than hear it thundering from the pulpit. Pray for me a sinner and all priests.
Thomas Folio, Extremely interesting. God bless you and thanks for sharing.
Well said - well explained. Thank You.
What a powerful testimony! God Bless you Father!
I read your history, you are a good priest and a man of God, I hope your health improves and God bles you
Inspiring words from a fine priest.
TLM is the best. I just came from the only parish in Mexico City where they offer TLM, it is so beautiful and true.
Lex Orandi Lex Credendi… Mass conducted Ad Orientem (Priest facing away from the altar) tells the congregation without any words who we are worshipping and the reverence we have for the true Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior without even opening the mouth.
I have been attending the TLM for six months now. I took my non-Catholic father to his first TLM and the following day, he told me he wanted to become Catholic. Deo Gratias.
Deo Gratias! That is a great blessing!
Well this was a pleasant surprise. Usually America Magazine treats us traditional leaning Catholics unfairly, but this was a very open and fair conversation. I am 22 years old and was educated and brought to the faith by awesome Jesuits in my Jesuit high school (shout out Belen Jesuit). I was not initially “trad” but as I learned more about the faith, I quickly began to search for communities that took Catholicism seriously. I am sorry to say that the reality is many (not all or even most, but many) U.S. Novus Ordo parishes do not take our Faith seriously. They have sloppy liturgy, a congregation that cares little about the unchanging doctrine of the church, and zero spiritual life. They are glorified country clubs and make no demands on their congregation. I’ll put it simply, many communities have lost faith in Christ and His Church. I know that is a controversial and difficult thing to say, but it is true. I know it because these were the churches I grew up in. It is this lack of a real challenge and incessant pandering to the youth, forgetting how much our OWN TRADITION has to offer, that is why I stopped believing in Middle School (I came back thanks in part to faithful Jesuits in High School). Many young people are like me. But unlike me, many of them will not come back. Fundamentally, this is not a TLM vs Novus Ordo issue. I’m confident of this. The issue is that young Catholics want to go to liturgies that are rooted in authentic Catholic tradition (so they don’t feel like they’re being pandered to by excessive inculturation), that are trying to be beautiful and reverent (not just minimum effort like one dude with a guitar on a SUNDAY MASS), and that shows them something of the Divine. The TLM offers them this, Novus Ordo’s across the country have not. The Jesuit way to respond to this is to do what these two Fathers did. LISTEN. Don’t cancel us and label us as rigid. We are trying to help the Church reach out to the youth. The way to reach out is to offer them the solid rock of tradition and doctrine while our world spins out of control, not pander to them and “dumb down” the Faith. We might need a little “rigid” these days, I know I did. If you read this, thank you. And God bless these two Jesuits and the Jesuit order.
Deo Gratias… well said!
Well said
Javier Mariscal - I could not agree with you more. You have put it beautifully. I do not attend the TLM as it is not offered in my parish. The NO liturgies in my parish, although not irreverent, I don't know how to put it. The few times I have attended the TLM I saw the faith and reverence of the parishioners, it was incredible. The guitar masses, although in my parish they mean well. In other parishes there are lot of abuses. And in general the difference in the TLM and the NO is night and day. Although to me the TLM and the NO are valid as they both offer the Eucharistic miracle which to me is the essence of the mass. The way it is presented is completely different in terms of the way our youth is perceiving it. In my view, in the NO many people miss the two miracles occurring at the mass, in the TLM, I believe, no one present misses that. Why would Pope Francis in essence "forbid" the TLM, I'll never know or understand. However, we catholics have to be very carful, specially on the web, to be disrespectful toward Pope Francis - He is the Pope and therefore deserve respect. We may not agree with him 100% of the time but we don't want to damage the place that the Chair of Peter has in our faith. I'm afraid that in the future, people won't see the Chair of Peter the way we have seen it for over 2,000 years and that would be very sad as the Papacy is what has kept us together as the Church of Christ that we are. Our protestant brethren don't have that, and today are divided into over 3,500 sects. We must defend the Papacy at all cost. I pray that all Jesuits will some day be like these two, God bless them and also our Holy Father Francis.
Well said
@@Winston-op5de Thank-you for your good word. At first, in regards to Pope Francis, something was just a little bit off in regards to this Pope. But when he was opening a lot of cans of 🪱🐛 worms, including this one in regards to the TLM, then, I was very worried that it would create a liturgy civil war. Is this what Pope Francis want, a liturgy civil war? 🤔 The best we can do is PRAY for his spiritual 🙏 conversion to Christ. Have a good, blessed, safe, and wonderful Thanksgiving Day. Thank-you ahead for your response. God Bless.
I’m a recent convert from Protestantism. (All the main denominations on my journey to Rome) I was attracted to the Latin Mass on the other side of town but had a beautiful Novus Ordo Parish 5 minutes from my house. I’m a big proponent of going to Churches in my community, because as an Evangelist in the street, it’s better to be able to bring people off the street to a Church near by. But I ended up loving both Masses and when I was at one, I missed the other. 😂 So I prayed and asked God where did He want me to go? A few hours later, my local Parish called me and asked me to come by to meet me. God would confirm that would be my home. Sometimes I wonder what life would be like a TLM but I also thank God for the opportunity to grow in Holy Tradition and get to share these truths at my local Parish. If everything leaves the NO Churches, who will be able to grow alongside those new converts or Catholics who don’t know what they believe like that? I consider it a call from God to stay rooted in my NO Parish and live out tradition to my best by God’s grace. And I’m not a super hero or think I’m something special like I’m going to save the world, but I do enjoy this mission to serve in my community, no matter the liturgical scenario. And thanks be to God, but my Church has a very reverential Novus Ordo Mass. I’ve had many cases where the Lord has spoken to me and have witnessed supernatural events in my Parish during Mass. So it works out. 😊
I do understand some NO Masses are a little looney and it makes it hard for some to side with my perspective. My heart and prayers go out to those who have to endure that. I really do pray for them. But we have to understand that the V2 is a valid council and it’s up to us to stand for truth and tradition. It wasn’t meant to be easy but Jesus will see us through it all.
I, too, am a recent convert, and I greatly appreciate the NO mass. My pastor is a former Baptist, but you would never know it by the way he leads an absolutely reverential mass. As a teenager I attended Latin mass a few times with my girlfriend, who was a cradle Catholic, but found it strange and not easy to participate in, because I did not know Latin. I think it would be nice if parishes would be allowed to offer either or both, as what works best for their parish. I hope I never have to attend a Catholic mass that is presented like a Protestant evangelical service.
Beautifully said. I, too, stuck to a reverent NO parish rather than flee. Sometimes, you have to present liturgical issues to the Parish Council. One of ours was reducing talking in church. Word got out and people stopped talking before Mass. Covid helped. Thanks
Wasn't v2 a pastoral council ?, yes it was , the fruits of this debacle are clear going on 60 years. That a NO has to be labeled as reverent shows the problem that they are not as reverent as they should be. At mass we are at the foot of the cross, that is found in the TLM , no so much,at the NO. Look at a mass from 1965 then one from 1975 the loss of reverence and piety is obvious.
@@RickW-HGWT , how's the fellowship after Mass and throughout the parish outside of Mass? Or is the Mass a private devotion? Does your priest's homily challenge you to apply the Gospel in your daily lives? Do you take up collections for the poor?
Very good points there; God bless you - from a fellow convert
Recently a priest told me that when he was in 8th grade in 1966 his pastor asked him "to compose" the Eucharistic prayer for their 8th grade graduation mass. It seems that ever since then priests can do whatever they want with the Mass. You can do whatever you want, as long as it isn't the Latin Mass.
😨 It's been total mayhem and chaos since Vatican 2.
Right!
That says more about who your "favourite priests" are than about the priesthood or Novus Ordo
True unity is in Christ. That is why I feel more of a unity at the TLM with people that I don't even know.
@@oliverclark5604
I don't have a clue what your reply means and I don't want to misinterpret it. My point is that, when the worship is God centered, we are of one heart and mind. I attend the TLM, others attend the NO. I have no judgement of them - no war. I just know that the TLM is where God wants me and I have found an unity with Christ and others there. Isn't that the goal? Why don't we just rejoice that people go to Mass - that they honor the Lord's day. I don't understand your, what it appears to be negative reply. Rejoice that more people are going to the TLM. I rejoice as I see these Masses booming - despite what Pope Francis thinks.
@@monicamohan4720 Amen to that. Couldn't have said it any better.
@Monica Yes, Jesus said to worship the Father in spirit and also in truth. Truth is found in Sacred Scripture and Tradition.
All I can say, in all honesty, is that attending the TLM with the SSPX saved both my faith and my sanity. As a result I think that those who wish to attend the TLM should be left totally in peace to do so.
What is happening now to so many TLM parishes is outright persecution which is perplexing when there is so much talk from Rome on mercy and smelling of the sheep.
What our forefathers held as sacred cannot suddenly become bad, dangerous, evil and forbidden. If it was good enough for countless Saints, then it is good enough for us.
Finally, as Archbishop Vigano said recently "The Tridentine Mass is not going to go anywhere" or words to that effect.
Trying to crush it is futile. So just let it be in peace.
People like me drive 2 hours in total every Sunday to get to it. We make huge sacrifices to attend it so we're not going to abandon it as easily as people might think.
Leave us be. It is that simple.
The Latin Mass is the most perfect, beautiful thing I have ever experienced
I joined a traditional parish because of all the problems I was seeing in the Novus Ordo parish I was a member of and in those I visited. The biggest issue was a lack of reverence during mass, especially in the handling of the Eucharist. Some of the worst were celebrated by Jesuit Priests. I have attend mass at a lot of Catholic Churches and while there are some N.O. priests who are quite reverent in celebrating mass, there seems to be many more who aren't. I haven't attended an irreverent Traditional Latin Mass yet, and I've been to quite a few.
escabrosa1, Thanks for sharing. I agree with you 100% but I want to add that we have to be careful when we look at people's behavior and see them as being irreverent. When I was in College at a Franciscan university, I used to be very critical of the people who where in the music ministry. Mainly because of their guitars and my interpretation of their reverence. I learned a big lesson when I followed their behavior after mass and found that they were better Catholics than I and many so call "reverent" Catholics were. So many times what we interpret as irreverent (communion in the hand, kind of "dancing" following the guitar music, etc.) is not irreverent at all. I was just being too judgmental. They did not meet my definition of "reverent" or "irreverent". It was just a different way to express themselves. The so call "reverend people in Church" were the opposite outside the church. I was socked, I learned a big lesson. We should not judge how people express themselves in Church. Many people love Jesus and his Church but act differently and we should not judge them. And I'm not talking about the Clown masses or the LGBTQIA+ masses, of curse those are completely wrong. You have to draw the line somewhere.
@escabrosa1 So many get caught up with their own definition of reverential, but we don't decide. What was affirmed as being reverential was affirmed by the early church when, for example, St. Sixtus c. 115 AD told the Church's position: only consecrated hands may touch sacred objects, and Jesus' Apostles were consecrated to touch the Eucharistic host.
It should not be controversial at all. Why is our Jesuit pope shutting it down? My diocese just shut down our TLM this month. Before anyone lambasts me, I am a regular NO attender and very infrequently attended TLM at our cathedral. Again, this controversy should NOT be and as far as I can see, it’s coming from a Jesuit called Paoa Francis. Any thoughts? Make it make sense.
I grew up with the TLM, feeling pretty good if I could tell what page of the missal we were on. It was quiet, all right. The turning point came for me in the 1960s, when I attended a student mass at the University of Bordeaux and was able to participate in singing the beautiful Gelineau psalm in French.
I knew Jesus all along, but had a special encounter with him in the Charismatic Movement of the late 1960s. It was as if the light went on. The rather drab new NO liturgy lit up for me, to where every prayer was the voice of the Holy Spirit. I realized, as I never had in my missal-bound childhood, that Jesus speaks to us in the readings at mass. These are as much an anamnesis as is the epiclesis. Those were concepts we had learned in their Latin-derived theological terms like transubstantiation, where the concept of anamnesis was dynamic: we were taken back, or Jesus was brought forward, to where we were there together at mass, here and now.
Sadly, I do not think most parishioners grasp this mystery. There's nothing wrong with the NO. What's wrong is the level of catechesis required to clue people in to what's actually happening.
Those whose faith has been enlivened by the TLM, however, have to realize that TLM is not an answer. Jesus is the answer. Pulling everyone back to the Tridentine version of the mass will not instill a renewed reverence. Recall, the opposite was more true for me. If it works for you, I'm glad. However, it might be good to take this faith you have found in the Lord Jesus through the vehicle of the TLM needs to be spread out--not in converting people to the TLM, but in helping people realize the reality of the liturgy--NO or TLM--keeping in mind that the first Eucharist was neither TLM or NO, but in Aramaic.
The TLM is attracting younger people to the Church. It should encouraged, not discouraged.
I see huge amounts of new young people coming into the new mass. Where I live it’s not even offered anywhere.
As a 30 yo I took my kids to the TLM at an FSSP parish. It was beautiful but my 4 children 6 and under demanded we keep going back. Children are tired of the noise of the NO. They call TLM a quiet church and pretty church. That should alarm NO priests greatly. They are failing the littlest of us.
I have no problem with the current mass. That said, the latin mass should be available to our pastors, if only to expose our children to the history/roots of the church. If you don't know where you have come from, then it's hard to know where you're going.
One of the challenges of the "secular soup" is the constant bending to what's popular and not sacred. Latin forms the basis for the language of so many people, the sacredness of that powerful foundation has such a power to touch the heart. This may seem obscure but for a few years I had been listening to mantra's in Sanskrit because of the timeless quality of the sounds. I happened across some Latin Gregorian Chants and I could feel my soul transported across time to the heart of Jesus. The sounds of Latin touch the soul much more than any spoken English words.
"Trust the spirit" what spirit??
Sweat lodge ceremony??
Pick your parish?? Pick a priest??
This is some new religion. A religion based on man.
Repent and make reparations.
Our Lady of Guadalupe ora pro nobis.
Thank God for the Ukrainian Catholic Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and the Tridentine latin Mass. The Ordinary Form, as Pope Benedict XVI called it, shoved me into over a decade of protestantism. The Latin Mass and the Ukrainian Divine Liturgy pulled me back.
I see Jesus weeping over the splendid chasuble and altar.
Take care of your hungry neighbors !!
It is not a matter of the liturgical manner but of a contrite heart.
It's not about beauty guys, neither is it about what you enjoy. The Mass is a Sacrifice of the Son to the Father. We are there to participate and witness and draw from the merits thanks to God's eternal charity. What's important is giving the very best to God, not to us. Akin to Cane and Abel. They both offered sacrifice but God accepted Abel's because he gave the very best. God deserves the best. So again, it's not really how we feel about the beauty or lack thereof. It's about God, not us
All should read “The Spirit Of The Liturgy” Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger .
YES!
The TLM does not invite, it draws you in and captivates you and all your senses through its beauty and sustains you with its unabashed proclamation of all Catholic doctrines and dogmas. Its leaves you knowing that you have just taken part of something that is truly good, right, and just worship.
We can't say that the TLM proclaims "all" Catholic doctrines anymore. Catholic doctrines include those promulgated during and after the Second Vatican Council-it *is* now official Catholic doctrine that the liturgy is the offering of the entire people of God, priest and laity together. The natural consequence of this is that the laity have to be full and active participants rather than "silent spectators," as Vatican II taught. The TLM faithfully expressed the body of Catholic doctrine that we had from Trent until Vatican II, but it doesn't fully capture all of the doctrinal truths that the Spirit has led us into today.
Just because you are silent doesn't mean you are a spectator. We have responses and follow the readings and offer our prayers in the offeratory.
@@patp5423 What spirit led you to the belief that the mass was the offering of God's people. Christ's sacrifice, his body and blood, the Eucharist is the sole purpose of the mass. Because of this the people offer themselves to God but they are not "The Offering" at mass.
During the TLM the people always offered themselves to God. This is symbolized when they stand for the incensing of the congregation, a beautiful and moving participation during the TLM.
Vatican II did not change doctrine.
On the contrary it seems from your statement that it obscured and confused doctrine.
Since the NO many are not even aware of the doctrine of the Real Presence. They seem to think they are the focus of the mass and are there to celebrate themselves and community.
@@luiscampos-ponce7788 That's true, but there is a reason that Sancrosanctum Concilium, Vatican II's Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, instructed the liturgy to be reformed in the way that it was. There is no denying that the congregation has a more active role in the Novus Ordo than in the traditional Latin Mass. And the more active role of the congregation in the Novus Ordo is entirely appropriate from a theological perspective. One can follow the prayers during the TLM, of course, particularly during the liturgy of the Eucharist. But the Church teaches that the human person is a body-soul composite and that worship is expressed not just in one's spirit but also in one's flesh. When the Novus Ordo insists that the people have to verbalize their prayers (rather than merely follow along), when it makes them recite the creed, or repeat back the refrain of the responsorial psalm, or take part in the singing (Vatican II actually forbade musical arrangements that did NOT have a part for the congregation to sing, as was so common in the pre-Vatican II era), it requires that the whole of the person, body and soul, be fully involved in the act of worship.
@@patp5423 so when people kneel using their bodies and pray silently with their souls that's not participation?
As I age, I discover that the facts of life are conservative. Christ will never abandon His Church, and its His--- not ours, not a particular Pope, or a religious order. Don't attempt to make His church what "we" want it to be to match this time or the wants of the people today. Have humility and realize it is we who come to worship Him, it's not about us.
Mass isn’t about us, and when we worship God in a liturgy oriented around our Lord, in a beautiful way the mass does indeed become about us.
Having no reverence at mass is the same as having no fear of God. The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God.
I grew up NO and have no problem with it today. When I came back to the faith five years ago, it was NO, then I started going too daily TLM because it was on the way to work at an FSSP parish which I've since joined. I grew more drawn to it simply because of the reverence, the silence. The silence speaks volumes. As St Teresa said the best time to contemplate and adore Jesus is after receiving Him in the eucharist. St Ignatius even says to hear Christ speak, you need silence. The NO doesn't give you that silence. The music doesn't draw you to God, it draws you to yourself. Don't get me wrong, there are some beautiful NO Masses done correctly. If the priest just followed the rubrics and doesn't make it about him because it's about Him.
Was Pope Francis harsh? Yes. Why? I believe certain bishops/cardinals hate the TLM. Secondly, in my opinion, there are some, some rad trads school have ruined it for everyone. How? Continually calling some bishops, and even the pope, heretics. Never speaking with charity. So those who wrote the motu proprio, or rather, those who had a hand behind it and it's implementation were harsh.
If the TLM is permanently banned and never permitted publicly to be said again, I won't go SSPX, I'll go back NO. But there will always come a new pope.
I have nothing against the SSPX as I believe Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre some day will be declare a Sant by our Church. But since it is not now in communion with the Catholic Church I would not attend the SSPX. I hope and pray that some day they will be again part of your Church and then I'll join them. I also understand their reluctance to come under Rome as at any point they may have to change the beauty of their TLM and have to introduce guitars, etc. At the present time, please let's stay in our church. No one can get me to leave the Church of Christ. Hope and pray that some day we'll be one.
You are so right. It's the noise of a Novus Ordo mass that makes prayer so difficult and creates so many distractions.
@@Winston-op5de maybe I missed something, but FSSPX is inside Church with irregular canonic status.
I as a revert who left for a deacde and a little more came back because of the TLM and loved it. That quiet peace suits me as an introvert, the reverence in it especially when all are done from the bottom of heart is beautiful.
When the traditiones custodes came out, i was sad for all the faithful brothers and sisters out there, who wanted to be in communion with the see of peter and yet loving the TLM that nourishes their spiritual are being sort of abadoned to luck. They have to wait for their diocese further announcement of the action on their local latin mass community, whether they get to continue, requires special limited time permission, relocation, closing of community, to celebrate latin mass. Their fate are left to be butcher for being faithful and in communion with the See of Peter, while those radicals can choose sides to go. The restrictions doesnt harm the radicals but the faithful that stays.
If ever Pope Francis or the Cardinals see this, all ever wanted to say of this latin community is that, this is painful and it hurts much.
Luckily enough, my local ordinary reply in email to me for my enquiry, continues to grant permission as it was before the motu proprio until there are no more priests saying the latin mass.
Lets us all pray for our brethren suffering in obedience, that this suffering may end soon with an ordinary that cares and are emphathetic.
suggestion: stop with the bouncy music typewriter sounds pauses. This viewer finds it very annoying.
If your main criteria for ministry is families, from personal experience, TLM masses are full of families with young kids, the vast majority of which are not ideologues, then the conclusion is is that these ppl must be cared for and follow the law of graduality
According to Pope Francis, all religions is the will of God, which meant all ways to worship is the will of God. So, what wrong with worshipping God throught the Traditional Latin Mass? Why did he hammered the sheep of his own flock? If Traditional Latin Mass is wrong, the Church, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus have been wrong.
Really makes you wonder doesn’t it…. Antipope for sure. I’m beginning to think an antichrist.
How can you talk about discernment without taking about the Will of God?
In the last 5 minutes of the discussion they talked about going to different parishes and discerning the styles of liturgy 😳
Why on earth would I want to do that?! By suggesting that they admit to the confusion in the Church.
No thanks. I'd rather stick with the TLM, the one liturgy I'm sure is pleasing to God in every way.
The problem with these two priests is that they do not know or ignoring the real reason for some Catholics are abandoning the Novus Ordo Mass.
IMO the main reason is that these faithful are turned by the way the Mass is celebrated.
There are a lot of abuses and a lot of priests think they owners of the liturgy.
The faithful are looking for solemnity and sacredness of the liturgy.
They disparage the Latin Mass by stating the priest has his back of the congregation
but the real reason for that posture is that ‘facing the altar’ or facing the East
where Christ would come in His Second Coming.
It’s better to have your back on the people thatn having your back on the Lord.
I wonder how these two priests celebrate the Mass.
Would people feel like they are worshipping or being entertained.
I felt robbed of being a Catholic when I found a church that has the TLM. It took me until my 30s to find a church. I now only go to the TLM. The NO is clearly a Mass made for Baby Boomers, and it shows in the low attendance figures, with only them present.
It's true. The NO feels like the Mass of its time, the 60s, and has not aged well. Whereas TLM is The Mass of the Ages.
Same for me as a millennial TLM member. Luckily we have an FSSP parish so we get the mass. It fills up entirely 30 mins before with all young families. While most NO churches are empty. I think that’s why Francis did this. Try to put the final death nail to the faithful.
I really appreciate how you integrated the various Ignatian principles into the dsicussion - a practical guide on "how a Jesuit thinks". Hope you keep doing this in future videos.
I learned about (and am still studying up on) the different Catholic churches and ecumenism. One concept that has helped me a lot is the idea of something (e.g., liturgy) being "LIFE-giving" with the meaning of "life" taken in the context of "Jesus is the way, the truth, and the LIFE".
If something is life-giving then it brings me closer to Christ, it makes me more like Christ, and it allows me closer communion to the body of Christ - the Church. If I discern that something is life-giving - even if it is differnt from what I am used to doing - then I think it is a good indication that this is where the Spirit is leading.
"Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi" As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live! Here is a major difference I've regularly observed that I've never heard addressed by Novus Ordo priests: in a Traditional Latin Mass setting, the people are mostly silent while in church both before and after Mass (and anytime they're in church). They reverently bless themselves with with holy water and genuflect when they pass before the Tabernacle. Women cover their heads. The atmosphere is prayerful. At Church in the Novus Ordo, people chat and gossip at full volume, rarely genuflect or bless themselves, stand in the aisles while they talk, ignore anyone who's praying, and pretty much ignore the fact that Jesus is present, body, soul, and divinity in the Tabernacle. Even Novus Ordo priests and religious act this way. No one speaks out about it. Talk in the vestibule or outside. Tell me which congregation is more reverent.
As a protestant who used to work with a bunch of Jesuits, I am always grateful for your thoughtful and reflective conversations on hot topics. I have not considered the ways in which having two very different masses could pull a community apart, and I think you for expressing new wants on both sides of this conversation.
Sorry the Tridentine Mass will never be suppressed…..ever!
It wasn't controversial for hundreds of years. It is the Novus Ordo that is controversial, and it needs to be abolished.
The TLM is closer to the text of Vatican II than the average NO Mass.
I love both forms! No war with me. Who is creating division? Are you being rigid?
I went to a traditional latin mass as a non catholic two weeks ago with a catholic friend and I really enjoyed it. I really appreciate sacred ritual, even rituals not part of my religion, because I love the appeal they make to my desire of mystery when worshipping. I hope the local catholic parishes in my community with the latin mass continue to celebrate in latin so I can visit again with my friend sometime
I'm sick of all this modernism forced onto us by the baby boomer generation. I want traditionalism. I want the Catholicism that existed for 1900 years before they ruined it.
The traditional Latin Mass developed under the guidance of the Holy Ghost over centuries is simply the means par excellence to worship. The Novus Ordo is a hot mess concocted in four years by men intent on fundamentally transforming the Church.
Totally agree after being able to see the consequences of its implementation... Vatican 2 is the start of cancel culture.
I attend both and I agree
Correct.
if you check up until the council of trent, the latin mass did not exist in any coherent form,. it was what it was where ever it was and in most cases non existent as the mass was actually said in the vernacular in the far reaches of christendom. trent wanted a unification. that was why that happened . but saying that the latin mass was a growing stable entity up until trent was not correct. and even since then, 500 years, it has had its variants. the dominicans have their own format and several other roman forms exist. and then the other 27 types. but yes the NO was started to collect and format a generalized process in the vernacular of the regions. so that the format of the mass was predictable but the language suited the region.
@@leylinegoddess It seems to me the format of the Novus Ordo is anything but predictable, but then I switched to the TLM 35 years ago so that may be just heresay.
I don’t understand why this has to be such a big issue. Growing up my diocese only had two parishes that had TLM. People who wanted to attend that went there and everyone else went to mass at the other parishes without a problem for years!!! This has not become a problem until the last two years. It’s been awful.
I am so excited that you are making more videos! I love your content!!!
Maybe the modernists should leave the TLM alone and allow people who want it to practice it unimpeded? That would be a great start! Then we can work our way to cleaning up the NO masses to make them more reverent. Maybe then the “liturgy wars” will finally quiet down! What do you think?
Pope Francis seems to tolerate heterodoxy quite well, but has little tolerance for traditionalists
collingdale1 - Please enough criticism of our Holy Father, he occupies the Chair of Peter so he deserves our respect. Let's criticize ourselves before the criticize others. Let's pray for our Pope Francis.
@@Winston-op5de Respect is earned, Pope Francis hasn't done much to actually earn it.
Traditional Latin Mass has greater Reverence than Novus ordo . In order to two communities to integrate would best; the Pope gives plenary indulgence every first Sunday of month attended Traditional Latin Mass for those Novus ordo community and vice versa for the Traditional Latin community.
This will being closer both communities and respect for each other😊!
It’s hard to understand that the Latin was the official language of the universal church for centuries. Was that a source of disunity ? I don’t think so. The ritual itself was conducted with so much care, because it was sacred and still is. The Vatican council has been trying
to “protestantaise”the church under the name of ecumenism. It amuses me how, many young Catholics after exposition and studying the history of the Latin mass became attached to the Tridentine mass. It’s not nostalgia, it’s a way to get in contact with God. I think not everything is pastoral. I think is matter of love. It is true, that a conservative person wants to preserve aspects that the church thought always like: the family and children. The difference between men and women as created by God. The concept of natural law. The consecuentes of a bad sexual education that implies that a child needs father and mother. That abortion can not be a method of “birth control”. The fact that homosexuality is a fact, but with so much preponderance in Western Europe and USA, teaches the concept of “fluidity” or an spectrum that goes from pederasty, polygamy, and other “filias” that due to the cultural environment, we are trapped into accepting and promoting life styles that do not ultimately cause fulfillment and happiness. Everything starts with prayer. The TLM is one way of prayer. Uniformity is not desirable, nor is to subject the people by decrees or commands, under the name of “pastoral”.
Good and fair discussion. I grew up in NO, spent almost all my school years (university included) in Jesuit houses, and I'm very grateful to have a TLM church round the corner. At the centre of worship is God. And great sermons, in love for God, the Church and all about the salvation of our souls. May our next Holy Father abrogate Traditionis Custodes.
Fr. John Hardon SJ. A loyal Son of Saint Ignatius of Loyola 🙏♥️🙏
This was an uninspiring and inconclusive talk.
We can alleviate some of this issue by actually following the suggested NO liturgy; Latin, organ music, Gregorian chant etc. You put those back in the mass, it's my belief that 80% of complaints about the novus ordo vanish. Because those things bring back the reverential feel of the event. It sets it apart from the mundane.
The biggest mistake that the Church made wrt the updated liturgy was giving celebrants too many options (all due respect).
And this is coming from someone who is decidedly *not* a trad Catholic
Good luck getting the Jesuits to do that.Most of their priests are boomers who are still living in 1968.
I enjoy the ordinary and extraordinary forms and am enriched by each. I do appreciate the reverence at the TLM parishes and the silences tend to more helpful for my chatterbox mind and provides.
I have seen Extraordinary Ministers abused in every parish near my home. I tried all 3 of them to find a good reverent NO Mass… all finished Mass within 50 minutes because of the overuse.
I have witnessed EMHCs BLESSING PEOPLE WITH HOST IN HAND while making the sign of the cross.
I have heard from my liturgy director that my home parish has found hosts in pews, on the floor, half missing, in parking lots, and nothing has been done about it.
We have guitar masses playing Protestant music while only one plays the organ beautifully… guess which one is full?
There’s no war…
Vatican 2 was the Holy Spirit saving the TLM and tradition.
I’m no prophet, but watch…
In 10-20 yrs the only parishes left will be those who offer the TLM or a reverent NO Mass with communion on the tongue.
My parish just lost Life Teen for lack of students and it was the best news I’ve ever heard.
They’ll return when we return to true Catholicism.
And for the record: I’ve read and approve Vatican 2… but WE HAVE TO DO WHAT THE DOCUMENTS SAY!!!
It's like you understand what is drawing us to the TLM but then you turn around and take it away by saying that we're attracted by the liturgy. For me it's about where I can give God his due worship. One liturgy facilitates that while the other hinders and places obstacles. My desire is to worship God the way Justice and Charity demand that I do.
Please don’t leave the Church Christ established! If you haven’t yet, watch some videos by Reason and Theology on orthodoxy
mass is a ritual, the point is to just be there. Delivering mass in Latin allows it to be done in a more pure way. Why doesn't the current pope just come out of the closet and live a happy life as a protestant?
my discernment has repeatedly pushed me to more conservative parishes with latin in the liturgy. If enough people hold reverence and want TLM in their community then why keep it from them? I'm talking to you Bishop Vetter(Helena,MT)
My brother in Christ, I don’t think the Bishop will be seeing this message under the video. I would recommend writing to him in a charitable manner if you haven’t already, and pray and hope. I don’t think it’s necessary to call him out here
Think like a Jesuit? No! Please think not like a jesuit. I meant, think not like a modern Jesuit.
Think like St Ignatius of Loyola not Fr Martin :)
My Country has a reverent Novus Ordo
I used to wonder why many in the west don't like the Novus Ordo
until I saw the horrible liturgical abuses there
Because of the unending abuses that have taken place in which the mass becomes a Broadway show
Very fair discussion Fathers, thanks from this trad. (P.S. The first TLM I attended was at the church of my Jesuit Alma mater).
I’m stuck somewhere in the middle. While I enjoy TLM, I don’t want that form to be the only way I worship. The music of the Mass in the vernacular for decades seem to be controlled by the so called St, Louis Jesuits. That music was so bland and dull that many, myself included, almost felt as though there was nothing ‘holy’ any more. Mass with that trite music was frankly unedifying. Why is it so hard to find a Mass with music that still speaks of the eternal. I want a Mass in English that brings me a touch of ‘the almighty’ God.
If the Conciliar documents had been implemented properly we wouldn’t have these “wars”. It’s the Paul VI Missal that’s the problem. Put back the altars, and communion rails, return to ad orientem, bring back chant and Latin. None of those changes were the intent of the Council.
As a philosopher, this particular conversation was astoundingly insightful and I think communicated very complex ideas in very understandable terms. Fr. Gilger's point about reframing our liturgical persuasions (for style or community, etc.) as moments of discerning vocation (i.e., am i called to commit to such and such spirituality or such and such community, etc.) is astoundingly beautiful and I think would be a meaningful point of departure for dialogue, ecumenism, and christian education in the Church.
Everyone I know attending TLM believes this whole heartedly. I attended both. 7:38 . The fact of the liturgy forming is why many prefer TLM. TLM is much more Christocentic in the rubric and has more signs, scriptures and meditation time. Praise and thank God in the Liturgies. This formation then teaches us how to act in community.
Latin Mass guy here. I am not anti Vatican II.
Very interesting! The 'Liturgy Wars' are in my view a convenient distraction from the difficult work of spreading the Gospel.
☝️ Exactly
The gospel is spread through the liturgy. We should pursue the best liturgy we can to be most effective in this task.
😂😂😂😂
After almost 3 years attending TLM I feel that I've learned more about Jesus, Mary, Catholicism, Bible, Tradition, History, Saints, Doctrine, Devotions, Vices and Virtues and Works (etc.), than in the previous 20 years attending NO. I still think I know too little, but these jesuits seemed to me to know nothing about the issue they proposed to talk about.
Nicolau Pinto Coelho, Lets face it the Jesuits are very liberal. The were not at their founding, but at one point they became liberal. They are also supesrmart, I want to be fair to the Order. Having said that, in my opinion they are more in their head that in their heart. I maybe 100% wrong. I'm of course making a general statement and when you do that you are never right 100%. So God bless these two wonderful priest. The topic they are covering is of corse a difficult subject and they were very brave to talk about it. That is why you don't hear too many priest talking about it. Unfortunately, some priests that have dealt with it and other "hot" topics have been cancelled by their bishops which is outrageous as they were just Teaching the TRUTH. That is why I support the Organization of Cancelled Priests which have been growing rapidly. The bad priest should be cancelled not the good ones. Specially during a priest shortage. Incredible.
One final comment - and encouragement to priests saying the NO: slow down the tempo; say the prayers more slowly especially the consecration; make sure lay Eucharistic ministers are dressed properly and not chewing gum(which I
Have actually seen); and notice at the TLM masses how attention is focused on the tabernacle with alter servers genuflecting every time the pass the tabernacle; at my parish it looks like Grand Central station with lay ministers and priests running back and forth and not paying attention to the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Tabernacle (ever wonder why there is such a low perception of Catholics who believe in the Real Presence?!!!!).
Right on, John. Slowing down is key to a Reverent Mass. And readers knowing how to read and genuflect. Parishioners can be mindful of staying quiet and not dropping kneelers.
How bout no more Eucharist ministers?
I've been attending, almost exclusivly, a 1962 form of the mass since summorum pontificum and belong to a FSSP parish. Practically speaking there's a whole way of life that me an my family have based ourselves around which we cannot really find out side of that parish and it's important to have good support structures for family life. Outside of TLM communities the large Catholic family really isn't a thing anymore.
Theoretically speaking I agree the '62 could use reform, my largest reservation is sacrosanctum concilium has great asperations with too many derogations.
NO churches aren’t communities from my experience.
I'm glad the traditional mass has helped some people come back to the Church or even strengthen their devotion. I think the heart of the issue here is not wether or not people love traditional liturgies, it's how do those people mature in love of Christ?
That is to say, if they keep going to a "traditional liturgy" for the rest of their life, are they maturing in love of Christ or turning inward toward love of the liturgical form itself? May TLM parishes host communities which have become increasingly antagonistic toward the Pope. It goes without saying that this is not a sign of a maturing relationship with Christ. If we grow in love of Christ then we also grow in obedience, as well as trust in Christ's plans for giving the keys to Peter and thus to all those who sit in the seat of Peter, so to speak. It's okay not to always agree with the Pope, but the flagrant gossiping and bad-mouthing of the papacy has to go if we are going to remain a Catholic church.
I'm saying this as someone who also fell in love with a traditional liturgy. I do love it, but all the more I love the Holy Trinity. I don't want to dedicate my whole life to just one liturgical format, I want to dedicate my life to the Trinity. That's the difference.
Understand this, Bergoglio hates traditional Catholics and I have the same feelings for him he is heretic who would gladly destroy a vibrant part of the Church. May Christ judge him for hateful behavior
What a wonderful question you pose in "how do we mature in love of Christ?" I was turned off to the TLM because of the background disrespect for the Magisterium. Come on Traditionals! Bishop Barron says that denial of Vatican ll should be anathema to a Traditional. Ignorance of Catholic Social Teaching should be anathema to a Traditional. Dare I say the USCCB needs to unite around Cardinal O Connor's Consistent Life Ethic?
@@michaelkraft218 please don’t give me that bullshit suddenly with Bergoglio progressives are all about the magisterium, when under JP2 and BXVI your side was constantly going against it. Schism is inevitable
This is a great point. All those who are raging that they were robbed of the TLM when they were younger need to understand that the grass is not perfectly green on that side either. My wife and I both grew up in traditional parishes/communities, and while there were definitely good things, there is undeniably a sense of superiority that makes its way into other facets of life. I love the traditional liturgy but if you hold yourself above other Catholics because you exclusively attend that, and your mind and heart are not turned toward Christ, it can quickly become a kind of idol. A priest friend of mine said that before Vatican 2, everything was all head and no heart (follow the rules and go to your nice liturgy, but no interior disposition or real devotion), and then after, everything became all heart and no head (everything is about feelings and nothing is about learning to truly love God). What we need is a blend of the two. Don't think yourself better than your neighbor because you attend a certain liturgy if your mind and heart are not directed to God. The channel The Logos Project is doing great work on discussing these topics.
@@andym5995 Everyone and every community has their own temptations to sin. For all time, having the Truth has been used by Satan to tempt people into pride (a common refrain among protestants is about arrogant Catholics).
Maturing in love for Christ can be achieved by solely attending the Latin Mass (as shown by the innumerable Saints, please pray for us).
I attend both Novus Ordo and Latin Mass (whenever I can get it). It is clear to me that the Tradition that the church worked on for centuries is more perfect than the Mass which was made only 60 years ago, in an attempt at ecumenism(?). It is not wrong for the Church Hierarchy to admit that the post conciliar innovations (not the council) have not worked and have been detrimental to the faiths of thousands of Catholics.
It is a bit like the Church's teaching on mixed Marriage, it is permitted but should be discouraged as it will ultimately open you up to watering down the faith to our children. We need to return to the Faith of our Fathers.
Just find a TLM church. Even if you have to drive hours to do it.
The important question is to know if both masses are equally valid and equally pleasing to God.
At last....a voice of sanity!
I’m a better man for having viewed this. Your words are important and valued.
St. John Paul ll & Benedict XVl both let the Latin mass be said and there was nothing in Vatican 2 against it.
Right on, Sean. You tell them.
I don't know anyone under the age of 55 that goes to New Mass, but I know over a hundred that go to the Latin Mass. Ironically, the New Mass is for old people that failed to "get with the times".
I am under 55 and the Latin Mass is the only reason I attend Mass. In my opinion the "Modern Church" has been tainted and when I attend Mass it is to connect with God. Not to be indoctrinated!
Some are moved by elaborate, intricate patterns; some by plainness. Some favor continuity; some favor wayfaring and change. Some behold Providence in the majestic and awesome; some hear God's whispers in the mundane.
Not “away from the people” it was directed toward God.
not if the people are fiddling behind the priests back, flipping through prayer books, praying the rosary and not paying attention. i have seen, in my youth, literally drunken women sitting in the pew, just sitting trying to put her gloves on. she was bodily at mass with her family but not there otherwise. i have seen people sleep through the latin mass. going to church was a perfunctory duty, not an act of worship. i am reasonably certain that is why a lot of the mass liturgy changed. to stop the mechanical performance of the congregation. latin was never thrown out of the NO. it can be used in several places. mass must not be just an act of standing and doing your own thing. i can be said in the round, in latin and with gregorian chant and very reverently. that was what was intended. you are not just a body showing up because it was a mortal sin to miss mass or guilt flavored religion. NO said people will be the content of the worship of the eucharist in the mass. we will know what and why we are participating.. god probably wouldn't care if you showed up in your pajamas. we cannot be snobs.
@@leylinegoddess lol 😂 people fall asleep now and don’t pay attention. The posture of the priest, facing the people or leading them toward God, I think has little effect.
@@paulcarter996 there are only 30 attendees where i go to church. one would never dare to nod off. everyone would see you. we face each other like in a monastery choir. we have no kneelers. we stand and we participate.
When will Pope Francis have the tango danced in the sanctuary of Saint Peter’s ?
Instead of restricting the TLM why not address the liturgical abuses in the implementation of the Novus Ordo.
Not really very enlightening. More like "make a bishop Barron style video" Two guys who would rather avoid the topic give fairly superficial observations that end up in making liturgy a Rorschach test. Also, the "fast facts" are incorrect. The TLM is called "Tridentine" because the liturgy was codified officially, it was essentially the same going back to Gregory the Great in the 5th century. The priest is oriented towards God and leads the congregation, he doesn't "face away" and ironically the Novus Ordo as written has the priest "Ad Orientem". Of course there are vast differences in the quality and character of the prayers and symbolic gestures between the two liturgies as well.
it was in the vernacular until the 1500's
@@leylinegoddess Latin was the vernacular language till about 800 AD. Latin remained the language of the liturgy in the Latin rite until 1970. All that Gregorian Chant and the Hymns of Aquinas etc are all in Latin.
Abit disappointed you didn’t mention the idea of blending parts of the TLM into the NO such as reciting some basic prayers such as the Our Father, Creed, and Communion prayers such as the Lamb of God in Latin. We have such a rich tradition that was totally ignored post Vatican II. Let’s draw upon that tradition. Also giving parishioners the option of kneeling to receive our Lord and saying the NO facing the east are other steps that would be well received by those seeking more of the sacred.
I am sure that if either of these thoughtful gentlemen had been in a position allowing him to cancel the Mass that assists a substantial number of Catholics to know God more clearly, love Him more dearly, and follow Him more nearly, that option would have been instantly rejected as a gross infringement of the liberty of Catholics to discern for themselves. One of the speakers touched on a matter that, I think, has not been sufficiently considered. The Catholic community this pope is trying to talk about is not, and should not be, tied to the parochialism of the present. There are people for whom the Novus Ordo, especially as practised in some parishes, stands as a great barrier cuttting them off from their fellow Catholics who once worshipped in the traditional Mass and could not have imagined any other.
Good Godspell lyrics there, mate.
@@michaelkraft218 'Godspell' borrowed them too - from an original prayer of St Richard of Chichester (b. 1197). It was one of the earliest prayers I heard after I began school and I was reminded of it later, in 1967, by a semi-retired Jesuit priest during a retreat. All best, C.
So much discussion of the TLM and Vatican Ii, and absolutely NO discussion or even mention, of "Sacrosanctum Concilium," the central operating document of the Second Vatican Council on the Liturgy? Perhaps we should start there, no?
It seems that the popes desire to bring together, is in fact ripping apart catholicism. He may do more damage than Saint Martin Luther.
The Novus Ordo mass has been the rule of the day for half a century now. That half a century has coincided with a wholesale emptying out of Catholicism in virtually every way, at every level, pretty much everywhere outside of Africa. We have fewer parishioners, fewer donations, fewer priests, fewer nuns, fewer marriages, fewer babies, fewer baptisms, fewer first communions, pretty much everything. I'm not suggesting you can lay each and every part of that at the feet of the new mass, but I don't see how you avoid laying the blame for at least much of it there. You judge a tree by its fruits - that is, its results. Whatever the intentions were, the fruits appear to be mostly rotten.
If you want to resolve the "liturgy wars", then the NO and its most fervent adherents need to demonstrate that its far more compatible with the maintenance of traditional Catholic orthodoxy than it presently seems to be.
I came into the Church with the Novus Ordo. I likewise was in formation in a seminary that exclusively taught Novus Ordo, for a diocese whose bishop refused to train his seminarians in anything other than Novus Ordo. And here are my thoughts, for all the ten cents they’re worth.
The TLM is not the only way to celebrate the Mass with reverence. The TLM is likewise not immune from complacency and disrespect. My old pastor used to tell of how rushed the TLM was in his parish before the Council, which inevitably caused mistakes to occur that people largely didn’t notice. The Novus Ordo, to him, allowed him to slow down and sink the meaning of the Mass into his soul. He is a better priest because of it. And there is nothing wrong with that.
On the flip side, the Novus Ordo was coopted by some to be absolute perversions of a Mass. A parish near my home used to have Masses done with literal sock puppets used at some point; I have seen the consecration bells used as a processional instrument, and flag twirlers in the background. I have seen parishes that forewent the Homily altogether to display a pageant in the middle of a Mass, and one parish that won’t even begin the Mass in the name of the persons of the Trinity. These aren’t typical by any means, but they’re not unheard of either.
If Pope Francis cared enough about the Council that he wishes to safeguard its message and implementation across the universal church, then he ought to have dealt an equal hand to both extremes: To those who use the TLM to reject the Council, and to those who use the Novus Ordo to deny the reverence and devotion Our Lord deserves in His Church. If he had done that, I wouldn’t be nearly as critical of him. What he has done by only going after the TLM is perpetuate the liturgy war in the Church needlessly. Excessive abuses in the Novus Ordo are overlooked, yet the TLM is suppressed because some see it as a rejection of Vatican II and all it stands for, even if for most people that’s not the case. It paints a picture that Pope Francis thinks a hypothetical schism is more important to deal with than a literal heresy breaking out across the United States. This is a war that the Holy Father perpetuates, though perhaps not intentionally. We need clear, decisive leadership to bring both the TLM and the Novus Ordo into what Christ intends them to be. Until that happens, Pope Francis will be chasing shadows while his home continues to burn around him.
Thank you for this nuanced and insightful take.
Surprised by this fair presentation. Educated by the Jesuits, I switched to the TLM because all the other churches were closed in 2020. We are not rolling back anything with 110 altar boys at my FSSP church. We travel many miles. What altered my opinion was the secrecy of Bugnini. What needs to improve is transparency. None of us will leave the Church; we just resist servile obedience.
Should be called thinking like a liberal
Thank you for this very balanced conversation. As a European I often worry about the passion with which American TLM devotees are pushing towards a schism. There's plenty of very reverend Novus Ordo masses here in Rome and we often say or sing prayers in Latin. I love attending the tridentine mass at Trinità dei Pellegrini but I also like understanding the Gospel reading. I hope the two styles can continue to exist. I like both.
Although the new Mass is a major problem it goes much deeper. If interested in finding out more what Vatican 2 has done to the Catholic church reading "Work of Human Hands" by Fr. Cekada will help. Its really sad what has happened to the Church I hope to see the true faith back in all Cities and Country's someday.
I missed you guys 😍😍😍😍 love the dynamic you have together, makes learning more fun.
Isn't it a bit myopic to attempt to discuss a liturgy that you don't know how to say or experience? Just imagine two Latin clergy attempting to critique the Byzantine Rite. THAT is the level of disconnect and disaffection that Traditionalists feel after the Motu Proprio.
"I don't think I really knew anything about liturgy like until I was virtually ordained..."
Not in the least bit surprising.
These 2 Priests are why people are leaving the modern liturgy and coming back to TLM.
Why is it always the Jesuits?
Because they are overrun with heretics.
Excellent discussion. Thanks for this presentation. It's helpful for understanding where people are coming from.
I could be wrong, but I think Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI is in agreement with Pope Francis. Surely, it's an unprecedented situation of having a living former Pope. Pope Benedict gave license to the TLM. Pope Francis had to discipline it, not abolish it.
Discipline it? By not allowing it in churches? Suppressing or extinguishing are better words.
@@Donaldalisary , research it and get back to me. No whining when your priests are being divisive to Rome
@@michaelkraft218 oh listen to the liberals who have been dissenting from Rome for decades before Bergoglio..may the war in the Church soon turn hot.... imagine no liberals its easy if you try
What’s a Pope Emeritus?
Correct indeed.
Jesus said this to the Samaritan woman at the well about worship: "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.’" (John 4:24) I've only been to a TLM once years ago, and found it beautiful. I also find the N.O. Mass beautiful. The point is, what does God find beautiful? Isn't it He who is receiving our worship? He is concerned with the attitude and sincerity of our hearts. He is concerned with our zeal and love for Him. He is concerned with our love one for another. He is concerned about whether we are welcoming to outsiders who need to hear the Gospel and be saved.
The Latin Mass will live. The Holy Father has shown no pain for what He’s done.
What is a faithful man to do or say - “doesn’t need to look the same” but just can’t look one way?! Why do you think you guys need to rehabilitate your image?!
Let me throw a grenade into this!
The Roman Communion has, including the Latin, about 23 different Rites. Each has it's own Missal.
And the Byzantines have three Divine Liturgy/Mass forms:. SS. James, Basil and John Chrysostom.
Later two. Lost of singing, bells and smells.
All of these Rites, Missals and Forms are done reverently. Some of these forms are being martyred into extinction in the Middle East.
Maybe in this prideful, gnostic liturgical war, we need to look at and love the Eastern Rites in Communion.
BTW, in the end of the Anaphora of St. Basil, there are prayers to prevent division in the Church. All need to take a look at it. And take the Doc's medicine. (St. Basil is a Doctor of the Church.)
As beautiful as the modern TLM is, as well as reverent NO's, you bring up an important point. It's simply hard to go to Holy Mass at a place where enough of the congregation says you're barely Catholic and basically Orthodox if your an Eastern Catholic, as well as the claims that the re-unification of the Eastern Churches with Rome was a necessary evil (people want to talk Moto Propio, but are not aware of the historical restrictions of Eastern Traditions by Roman Bishops). The SSPX and even ICK and FSSP perspectives among the Clergy concerning Eastern Catholics are not charitable for the most part. Additionally, I have been treated in a most unwelcome manner in some circles, since many members of EF congregations I know act as though my attending the Divine Liturgy and simply existing as a Melkite Catholic is detracting in their efforts to scare or shame NO goers into attending the EF. It's really weird and frustrating. While I attend to worship, and not to socialise, these problems in EF Churches need to be addressed at some point. It's so toxic.