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Do I have to follow every church teaching? | Think Like a Jesuit, Episode 5
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- Опубликовано: 19 дек 2022
- The church has a whole lot of teachings. Am I expected to agree with every one of them?
In the season finale of "Think Like a Jesuit," Eric and Paddy take on yet another tough question facing Catholics. They consider why church teaching is important, what it means for us to follow it and how to approach a situation where you disagree with something the church teaches.
Thank you for watching our first season of "Think Like a Jesuit." This show is made possible by America Media's digital subscribers. Please consider becoming a subscriber and supporting our work at americamagainze.org/subscribe.
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I love these little talks, they always lead me forward. Years ago, a Jesuit helped my wife and I in a very difficult time period and Father Eric and Father Paddy remind me of that Jesuit who just kind of talked us through that terrible time. Thank you and Merry Christmas!
You are both too young to remember when we children were terrorized by church teachings that we were going to hell --in terrible agony for all eternity-- if we missed Mass on Sunday, at meat on Friday or "entertained" a sexual thought! That is what the Catholic Church did when it could!
America broke from England because of "taxation without representation." As a woman whose entire sex has had nothing to say about church law or any part in formulating it, I feel perfectly free to follow my conscience when it comes certain church laws such as contraception (so cruel to the poorest women), abortion (ditto) and assertions about the LBGT community.
You both are really "cleaning up" what has been a very abusive history of church teachings on sin and retribution, the vision of a God who would cast you into hell if you disobeyed. And I say good for you! It's a necessary, intelligent and compassionate corrective! However, I remember the nightmares, the fears of being damned when I was 8 or 9 years old. We can't ignore that "bad old" history!
The Church's teachings haven't changed despite what you might glean from some priests. Contraception, abortion, homosexual acts, etc. are still grave moral evils. This is what the Catechism itself says.
Great conversation. Very thought provoking. You're helping to keep me on the journey--thank you.
I hear these two men talking a lot about intention, but what about impact? This is the problem I struggle with as a Christian when people say to me, "Think with the Church." The impact of the Church's teaching (say, more recently, on transgender issues, homosexuality, and the family) is mostly disastrous in my context. So when these gents say, "The Church has really good reasons for thinking what it thinks," I want to reply with the words of the Apostle Paul: "Love does no harm to the neighbour" (Romans 13:10).
I have always been, and remain, a Protestant believer who deeply longs to be Catholic and Orthodox, but who cannot join the institution because I cannot assent to basic Catholic assumptions because they would immediately bring harm to people I actually know and love. Lord, come to my aid!
Thank you both for your kind pragmatic reflections and counsel. Blessings to you for continued success in your ministry. Peace to you.
They are exactly right. It is not an either or issue. The teachings of the church are ideals to strive for rather than expectations we all need to meet. Unfortunately that is not why I see in my church. It seems like the bishops and priests have decided that church teachings are too hard for us so they won’t even talk about them anymore. Just show up, God loves you the way you are, put money in the basket and go on with your sinful life. That’s the message I get.
Well, the teachings of the Church are more than just ideals. For example, the teaching of no extra-marital sexual relations. This isn't just an ideal. It really is an expectation for all practicing Catholics. In fact, to disobey such a teaching with full knowledge and full consent would be a mortal sin. I thought I would say this just to clarify. I agree that important moral issues need to come back to the pulpit. Despite hearing a few helpful homilies on certain Church teachings and insights, most homilies, if this isn't disrespectful to say, often seem a bit platitudinous. For example, homilies on faith. Have faith in God, trust Him, don't worry about problems out of your control etc. But there is rarely ever any constructive advice on how to practice that virtue in our lives that hasn't been mentioned many times. How about a homily on the power of the rosary or the lives of the saints? Or how to be humble? Maybe a homily on different penances and sacrifices we can perform (not just during Lent) to grow our relationship with God?
@@PeterRiello : thanks for sharing your thoughts, you're a better teacher than these.
St. Ignatius of Loyola, founder of the Jesuit order is very very sad how some Jesuits priests, bishops turn and twist the teachings for their pleadure and glory. Fr. Mitch Pacwa should give them all scripture and traditional teachings.
It’s not “this and you’re out” it’s more “this or come to mass and refrain from receiving communion…”
Thank you so much! I met a Jesuit priest last week who has helped me so much ! So I sought this out through RUclips and found you guys this is so awesome... Amazing similarities to 12 step programs in ideas and thinking....ei. assume the best of others, look for similarities not differences, avoid black-and-white thinking...etc... Blessings! Our family has been converting to Catholicism.. we were Evangelical Protestants.... Blessings to you both and thank you so much!!
What if your conscience is well informed with the Church teachings, understand the good intentions that it has, but nevertheless, in good faith, find that it is not what you can accept? Is it morally right to follow your conscience in this manner? Note that this choice is not absolute, and is still open to dialogue, but it is a well-informed, good willed, and yet still always tentative choice made in humility.
Great point, see my other comment on this same sentiment.
My understanding is that scenario is exactly when the Church would insist you follow your conscience, while still seeking to further inform your understanding with an open mind
@@thebacons5943 thank you. This is the kind of spirit we must foster as a church. I am so happy that our pope encourages this kind of dialogue, especially with voices in the fringes of the church. We must always strive to move towaeds one another in a spirit desiring of peace, harmony, and dialogue.
No you're still obliged to accept the teaching
@@Traductorero I agree completely. That said, I defer to those who might be able to lend their expertise. Like you, simply doing my best…
James McConnell
1 second ago
Thanks for this discussion. My understanding has been that we in English speaking countries have been raised in the tradition of Common Law where the law is absolute. Canon Law, on the other hand, has been formulated primarily by Latin people raised in the tradition of the Civil Law where the law is the ideal not the absolute. In the Common Law if the traffic light is red at 2 AM on Tuesday morning on a deserted street, you wait until it turns green. In the Civil Law mindset, if there is no one around and no danger to anyone else, you go through the red light. In the Civil Law interpretation of Canon Law only Jesus is perfect and while we may try to emulate Him we cannot be expected to do so perfectly all the time. In the Common Law interpretation of Canon Law Jesus is perfect and if we don't measure up to that perfection we stand a good chance of going to hell.
Great conversations! Keep sharing, it’s really helpful for me 🙏🙏
Thank you both for the work in this channel but also starting a conversation on such a thorny issue. The idea to stay engaged, 'think with the church,' even through deep & uncomfortable tension, really resonates. Most discussions I see of this topic take a bit of an easy out - they rely on the abundance of Grace and forgiveness to catch us when we fall short. But I can't help but think this interpretation assumes we are sincerely trying to follow the Church's teaching.
The circumstance where one consciously _chooses_ to act in disobedience to a teaching feel much more problematic to me. I don't understand the sacrament of Penance to really apply in an absence contrition. To me, this is the real tension that can easily become intolerable and drive people apart from the Church entirely.
When I lack contrition I confess to a lack of contrition. Somehow the friendly welcome from the priest for the honesty brings about the very contrition I had to confess to lacking
Everyone is going to have an "encounter" with Jesus Christ whether they want to or not. The only difference is whether you will encounter Jesus as your Savior or as your Judge. And as the prayer of St. Ambrose states very eloquently, "I ardently desire to have Him as my Savior whom I am unable to face as my Judge." That is determined by how you follow His Church.
Correction. The Way is narrow. Follow Jesus Christ only
@@alisonwelch8465 You can only follow Him from within His Church.
When one clings tightly to any one theology, philosophy, or ideology they always leave some one out....Jesus never left anyone out. The church leaves divorced Catholics out, women out, the LGBTQ individuals out. God is not Catholic nor Jewish nor Hindu, nor Buddha, nor Muslim, etc.....GOD IS LOVE....Follow love, compassion, generosity, and kindness.....including ALL with a welcoming Spirit.
@@donnaerpelding5194 Define God into basic irrelevency with that claptrap. He's just the Butler of Heaven and everyone goes. Justice and Mercy become worthless at that point. When one holds to truth, what is not truth is by necessity left out. When one does not hold to truth, everything else can be included and the truth is left out. As Chesterton wrote: "One can fall in any direction, but there is only one direction in which a person can stand." Jesus doesn't force himself on those who don't want to love Him and don't want to follow His commandments. One of which is "repent." Those who don't exclude themselves to the end, He literally says, "Depart from me into everlasting fire. I never knew ye." He stated clearly that the road to damnation is wide and easy to go down and the road to Heaven is narrow and difficult and few make it.
And the Catholic Church doesn't leave divorced people out, or LGBT people out. Some people in those situations want to stay out because they love their sin more than God and don't want to stop. And they insist that the Church bend to their particular vices and errors.
The truth is, anyone can be a Catholic and go to Communion worthily like every Catholic is supposed to, by repenting and turning away from sin. The way to the Communion rail is by way of the confessional. Nobody is excused from their sins and the Church isn't "mean" for insisting that people meet God under His terms.
@@gerry30 : thank you gerry. Great way to help God's children follow the pathway that leads to heaven.
Had to listen to this again and they seem so uncomfortable about this topic and I sense they want to exclaim like I- of course you can! Prayers for them who are so educated and come off so conflicted. Peace 🙌
Modern (modernist ) Jesuits
@@briandelaney9710 bingo.
Hi, guys. Watching this again and loving it. I *do* think that adult relatives (parents, grandparents) sometimes coerce us as adults. But I do think it is the experience of many people I know, especially (but not only in) in the GLBT+ world. This common experience is part of what makes it so hard to think with the Church or trust spiritual guides. I know you've thought about it. Thoughts?
Great discussion, I enjoy your channel. Charity, Nuance, and Critical thinking. Well done.
I'd like to offer some pushback or at least food for thought and encourage you two to finish your thoughts on this topic in a future video.
Specifically, let's focus on the issue of dissenting from doctrines based on conscience. I don't mean merely disagreeing with the teaching, but actually knowing by way of a a (very) informed conscience that a specific teaching is not only incorrect, but actually harmful.
An example is the Church's teaching on LGBTQ issues, as one prominent example. Eric and Paddy noted that following Church teaching should be akin to following the traditions handed down by grandparents. I'll respectfully demur on that one because the teachings were formed through the years by ONE exclusive all-male cadre without serious input from women or other excluded groups.
You spoke of the rules as coming from a "community of people" but the voices of LGBTQ have been completely left out of the teachings, that, quite frankly, attack the very *being* of a person. These teachings were started in the bronze age and then honed in the middle ages with some finer pencil points inked in the early-to-mid 20th century, but are largely ignoring the past 50 years of scientific findings and common sense.
So what is one to do? Should one commit to staying in a damaging relationship?
Sibling in Christ, I share your sentiments. However I believe to remain within the fold while expanding the reach of the voices of disenfranchised minorities within the church has more potential for progress rather than dissenting in frustration. Just as Jesus, at the beginning of his ministry, was on the fringes and gave voices to the fringes of 1st century Jewish society, so should we remain within, on the borders ever pushing further the frontiers of the kingdom of God on earth by speaking the truth of least of God's servants.
@@Traductorero Thanks for the reply. Can you expand on why one needs to belong to an institutional Church in order to accomplish this?
@@TheRealShrike while the church has administrative and institutional power, there is also the possibility of remaining within those very structures in order to expand the pockets and spaces of dialogue for the church to become answerable to the times while remaining independent of it.
In truth, I stay mostly for sentimental reasons, in very much the same way I would always try my best to respect and value my relationships, always hoping for reconciliation and peace. Pope Francis, I believe, envisions this kind of attitude with his synod on synodality. I believe he sees the church as having the potential to not just survive in a post Christian world, but thrive with a multiplicity of voices that are always in dialogue and moving towards each other in love, humility, and a sense of familial community. I believe this is easier for me to envision as well, coming from an Asian culture where family and community are values. In much of human history, people lived in close knit communities where power was always negotiated among different people. I hope in a church with this kind of spirit.
My favorite quote when it comes to 'upholding church teachings'...When one clings too closely to any one theology, philosophy, or ideology you always leave someone out. Jesus didn't leave anyone out. The church's stance on LGBTQ community, divorced Catholics, on women, etc. are examples of the Church teachings that leave someone out....not Christ like at all. I choose Christ.
@@Traductorero Good luck. Glad you are thinking deeply about these things and using critical thinking skills. Be well.
Daily I meet strangers, friends, intimates. Through those brief, incandescent Gospels, through Jesus, I know, with certainty, they are each the face of God. Through the church, via the pomp of its magisterial, 600-page catechism, I am told some of them are intrinsically disordered. They are not. God is not intrinsically disordered.
Even the Jesuits do not have the guts to debate and discuss real issues such as sexuality, contraception, and the political stands of the bishops. The synod of bishops have caused more people to leave than the most eloquent atheist spokesman!!
I would very much like to have such a conversation with one of your brothers, or perhaps someone else you might recommend. My local parish priests are not quite up to par, I feel, on some of these questions. Do you have someone on your staff, with a solid background in moral theology that could help me? I'm "stranded" behind the Redwood Curtain in northern California. In person spiritual resources are scarce here.
Wow, I wish that I had been taught Catholicism by the Jesuits! 👍👍
How about adding a woman to this discussion? There are issues woman particularly need to comment on such as Birth control and divorce.
why do you want to be called a catholic if you do not believe in what the Church teaches? What is the point?
I want to get y'all's take on canon 14 of the 7th session of the Council of Trent. For my money, that one (anathema to one who says people baptized as infants should be asked as adults if they want in or out of Christianity and that if they opt out they should get no punishment other than being denied the Sacraments until they repent) wasn't within the ambit of the Church's protection from error. It has a major run-in with Dignitatis Humanae from Vatican II.
Padres, you two priests have changed my thinking, and certainly changed my thinking about today's Jesuits. I am older than dirt now and have never had a spiritual advisor, I must say your videos have somewhat filled that hole in my spiritual life. Have you or America ever considered a series of pamphlets on this topic and others for the laity? That would be an asset to our spiritual lives. Thank you and God bless you.
When one clings tightly to any one theology, philosophy, or ideology they always leave some one out....Jesus never left anyone out. The church leaves divorced Catholics out, women out, the LGBTQ individuals out. God is not Catholic nor Jewish nor Hindu, nor Buddha, nor Muslim, etc.....GOD IS LOVE....Follow love, compassion, generosity, and kindness.....including ALL with a welcoming Spirit.
@@donnaerpelding5194 God's Church is catholic. Catholic means all-embracing. The Church is all-embracing. No one is left out of the Church if they repent of their grave sins, are baptized, and follow the Church. Essentially, it's their choice.
@@PeterRiello : a good answer. God bless you for this teaching, simple and true.
Get in touch with Fr. Mitch Pacwa, a good Jesuit priest. He will help you on the way to heaven.
Great teachings. Being a happy heretic I enjoy learning from you. I didn't leave the Roman church. She left me. The final straw was being told how to vote. Paying 400 bucks for my son to make his 1st Communion. The church practiced simony.
Interesting. I’m watching this program for first time. We need a vocabulary to understand the new way of talk in the C. Church today: to listen- to accompany- all or nothing- freedom- sexual beings- inclusion-synodality-homosexual- transgender- women-pedofilia- love- conscience- body- freedom of conscience- perfection- judgment…etc. etc. In this vocabulary we have a nomenclature to understand each other when we talk so serenely and understanding. The problem begins, when we start questioning. The answer generally lead us to talk about perfection, since we are imperfect humans, then we have to accept the reality of exceptions then we make exceptions as the normal and what seems a common sense, what seems normal, is dump in the trash can of unreality, and end up living in fantasy.
These way of thinking and acting, has lead us in the Catholic Church to the creation of a New Church, that is trying to form a “new man” and “new women”.
“By their fruits you shall know them” the scripture tell us and “wide is the road that leads to perdition and narrow is the road that leads us to salvation” or Paul stab deep, when He tell us “do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed….” The Tower of Babel is always enticing. The Lord shall destroy, once more this fantasy.
HEEEY! they're back!!
Thank you 💕
Is this at Xavier HS in NY? Class of '13
Please stop the music I don't hear anything
I second this, a lot of people have trouble hearing speech over music. It's like reading something that's been highlighted with a really dark color.
It's outrageous that the same people who had fought for decades the Teachings of the Church regarding same-sex marriage and the impossibility for people in grave sin to receive Holy Communion; now that the Pope has changed these teachings, come out to tell us that we have to accept the Church's Teachings. It's also outrageous also because implicit in their position, is the lie that the Teachings of the Church regarding faith and morals can change or be changed by anyone, when the truth is that not even the Pope can change any of them. The truth is that once a Pope declares a truth, it can't be changed by any other Pope preciseluy because all the following Popes and the laity have to be obedient to what the previous Popes and the Church has taught. This is a basic principle that makes us what we have been for 2,000 years: CATHOLICS.
As they say in 12 Step groups- Progress not perfection. We aim for perfection, but celebrate our progress toward that perfection.
Thank you.
There is a difference between having a question about a Church teaching or not understanding the what or why of a teaching and positively denying a teaching of the Church. Most of the people who dissent from Church teaching don't understand the very basics of Humanity vis a vis God. G. K. Chesterton understood the very basic concept. "We are broken." Most people don't believe that, they don't see the need of a Savior and much less a need for a Church and no need for Repentence. In their minds, Jesus Christ is simply the Butler of Heaven who is there to answer the door and let us in when we die.
Gerry, you are painting with an awfully broad brush, there, which sounds like the position the two Jesuits recommended folks avoid.
@@TheRealShrike I'm simply in disagreement with the Jebbies. They talk about the gray but avoid the ultimate reality of the black and white. I'm not a big fan of priests who "accompany" a person and don't lead them anywhere. There is a lot of presumption of Christ's mercy and not enough taking of Him seriously. I've always been impressed by priests who genuflect and aren't afraid to "shush" people who are talking too loudly in Church. They behave (correctly ) as if Christ is a real person, of incomparable nobility present in their midst and not a smokey, idea of a person who just "loves us" whatever that actually means to individuals.
I have a relative who is a psychologist and in a discussion I was told "I deal with people in the gray areas" I said essentially , "Gray is an illusion. gray areas are really just small bits and pieces of black and white" What looks like a big gray area of a problem is ultimately a bunch of smaller issues that are black and white decisions. You go through the small things and step by step and you'll find your way to the truth. The difficulty is, that requires decisions and whenever you make a decision, you lose something. People don't like to do that. A simple shortcut way is basically applying what Bishop Sheen said, "When someone leaves the Church, don't look at the Creed for the reason why, look at the Commandments. There is always a sin they want to commit." That applies to everybody and that commonality may be a broad brush but it's a succinct and clear way to the Truth. Jesus Christ isn't sort of a suit that people try on to see if it fits and if not, that's okay. People need to know that they need to put themselves below Christ and ask Him to change them in conformity with Him. That's not even on the vast majority of people's minds nowadays.
@@gerry30
Gray is everywhere. We are awash in gray. Morality is not easy. It is hard work done by humans of all types, not just the religious. If it is so easy, why do reasonable, intelligent, informed people with good intentions disagree on countless issues?
Your example of the Ten Commandments actually demonstrates my point because the Ten Commandments are so vague and riddled with exceptions so as to not all that useful. Each one requires an exhaustive research project to figure out a reasonable course of action. The Ten Commandments are fairly useless in trying to figure out bioethics questions, for example. When is taking someone off a ventilator the right thing and when it is the wrong thing? The answer is GRAY. It's hard work.
Why do universities have philosophy/ethics departments? If it is so easy, why do Catholic schools teach the moral decision making *process* rather then just slapping down some rules?
Morality is complicated. What is the right thing to do in this example? To allow the rainforest to be cut down now for short term gain for poor farmers, or to retrain the farmers and preserve the forest for generations? You need to collect data, interview all stakeholders, look at historically related examples, and attempt to make the right decision with the info you have.
Lastly, I fully disagree with the Sheen quote, which is an old nonsensical Trope trotted out against non-believers. People leave the Church for a vast array of reasons. Deconstruction is a varied process for any who undergo it.
Right on!
To be able to adhere to the Church teaching fully, to me, is the outcome or fruit of our perfect relationship with God. But perfection in terms of any relationship does not happen overnight.
Eg when we first enter into relationship with someone, we only know him/her by that much, but this does not mean we don't love each other or that the relationship is flawed but just that the two persons are still journeying in that relationship, striving toward maturity and perfection. [but if either or both parties decide to call it quit, then the relationship will become flawed]
God has loved us first (Romans 5:8) so to be able to abide by all the Church teachings is not the prerequisite to enter into our relationship with Him. (The Council of Trent did not deny the essentiality of 'imputed grace', but it expounded that our salvation also requires the realisation of infused grace - 'increase in justification')
But as we know Him more intimately and our relationship with Him deepens, then gradually we will gather the strength and attain spiritual maturity to be able to appreciate these teachings.
Thus, it is not about "You must adhere to these teachings in order to be loved by God" but rather "You will adhere to these teachings because God won't stop loving you."
I struggle with the idea that only the Holy Spirit convicts of sin. When I do it, it is ALWAYS from my teeny tiny, self-referential perspective.
The question and title of this video is interesting, but I am afraid I found no meaningful answer to it.
A better question , can you have reservations about some of Vatican II’s documents?
This discussion begs the question: when is an alleged teaching truly an immutable teaching, rather than just good advice or a viewpoint of the day?
The last several decades have seen a kind of "creeping infallibility" at multiple levels. This has been a major cause of tension, and indeed, a reason why many leave the Church.
"The Catechism of the Catholic Church" represents, both factually and symbolically, the apex of this creeping infallibility. But the views expressed there are not necessarily infallible immutable teachings. It is perfectly possible that many of these "teachings" will morph, perhaps even be reversed, in the medium- to long-term future. There are many historical precedents for such reversals. At one time, levying of interest was firmly considered to be sinful. At one time, owning a slave was considered licit. In the decades or centuries to come, it is quite probable that homosexuality will no longer be labelled "intrinsically disordered", that contraception in marriage will no longer be labelled "intrinsically evil" and that some pope will no longer hold that the Church does not have the authority to ordain women.
Pope Francis has clearly started to move away from the creeping infallibility phenomenon even though a relatively small but vociferous group of conservative Catholics have found this excruciatingly painful. No doubt, the Holy Spirit will guide the Church through these challenges in years to come. Veni, Creator Spiritus....
To answer the question, all dogmas must be accepted in their entirety. No ifs, ands, or buts. Doctrines that aren't dogmas are required to be assented to and followed in their entirety, but certain aspects of the doctrine may become more detailed (developed) over time. This means that with a doctrine, some people might have opinions on the teaching that go beyond the scope of what has been formally taught, but they cannot go against the doctrine inasmuch as it has already been defined.
@@PeterRiello Thanks for your response. It pretty much corresponds to the standard response given in Catholic circles. But it frames the matter in rather abstract generic terms, whereas the proverbial devil is in the details. (No pun intended.) As far as I know, there is no definitive demarcation of the boundary between doctrine and dogma other than those laid out in Vatican I. And subsequently there have only been two Marian dogmatic pronouncements that followed those guidelines.
The boundaries between infallible teachings and doctrine prior to Vatican I seem rather fluid at the edges, so to speak. Presumably credal contents move in the direction of infallibility. Views on matters such as suicide, levying of interest, slavery, limbo have shifted. The dogmatic/doctrinal status of encylclcals is ill-defined and controversial. Humanae Vitae's rejection of contraception is not backed by sensus fidei. Increasingly the notion that homosexuality is intrinsically disordered is rejected. So is the practice of prohibiting divorced but civilly remarried Catholics from communion being rejected. There are issues around cohabitation prior to marriage, long accepted in parts of Africa, and now commonplace in the West -- should these couples be barred from communion?. One could go on and on.
In some sense, we should accept that there will always be matters such as these about which opinion differs. Perhaps the greatest challenge is for all of us to accept that such differing viewpoints are inevitable and not to marginalise those who disagree with us.
Great discussion! I have not been a fan of video sessions - until now! Thanks.
Interesting analysis, but with a big hole in the logic. It is all very well theorising, as you do, that (a) church teaching is correct, (b) people cannot follow it because it is difficult, and (c) if you accompany them on the journey you will be with them when they come to accept them and lead them back to the church. But what if their lack of acceptance of a teaching is not because it is difficult, but simply because it is wrong, and their experience of life shows that even if male celibates in a church bubble don't know it? What happens if the problem isn't with them, but with you?
Church teaching has dramatically changed all through history when it realised, often long after everyone else, that it was wrong and ridiculous. Pope Gregory XVI in an 1832 encyclical condemned freedom of conscience in society as an "absurd and erroneous teaching or rather madness". The church u-turned on that. Vatican II threw that out, as it did Leo XIII's condemnation of equality and participation of citizens in civic and political life. Up to 1950 the church taught that using so-called natural family planning was a mortal sin in any cases. Then Pius XII did an about turn and taught the exact opposite. As late at 1860, the church taught that it was not a sin to own another human being so long as the slave was treated humanely. Leo XIII threw that out and declared slavery in any case a sin. The Church, influenced by St Thomas Aquinas, taught capital punishment was morally justified. Popes executed people in the Papal States. Then in 1995 Pope St John Paul II adopted the exact opposite, arguing that except in such limited cases as to make it almost impossible, capital punishment was morally repugnant and sinful. The decree Tametsi in the Council of Trent, about the need for a priest to witness a marriage for it to be valid, was an about turn of 1500 years of church teaching.
Few institutions have changed their doctrines and teachings more often than the Catholic Church, all while saying it is unchanging.
If your definition of "walking with people" is simply to walk along, eyes closed, ears closed, and try to lead someone back to the teaching, then you are wasting your time. Maybe by opening your eyes and ears to their experience you might find out that sometimes the problem isn't that church teaching is hard, but that in the experience of millions living real experiences, it is simply wrong. In other words, the fault isn't with them. It is with you and the church.
Those developments are a bit more complicated than you describe here, and I think you're assuming more about the intentions of the would-br listeners than is necessary. One can be confident of one's own position and still be genuinely interested in hearing someone describe their own, differing view. One can even do this without expecting them to change their minds or demanding that they do so. In fact, it probably takes something like true confidence in your own position to really be able to listen well.
Lots of heavy comments - some not very nice - so I am going to ask a lighthearted question. Fr. Paddy, are those Iggy socks you are wearing? I thought so!
Are you truly offended by the binary view of sin...right vs wrong with no "in-between"? As priests you have to keep your silence when criminals confess their crimes. As victims of crime we have to deal with the repeat offender who has the patience of their priest on their side. Do you report criminals to the police? Become a witness to their confession? I see a conflict of interest. What if the crime of domestic violence is the planned, deliberate, merciless killing of their unborn child? How can I be as patient as my priest? Abortion is not illegal so it's not a crime? Does this fall into the "in-between" gray area of sin? You are confusing me. But then I do not agree with Pope John Paul II's requests to release Agca from his prison sentence in Italy. Is this Muslim really a convert to Christianity and a justification for a touchy feel-good "in-between" approach to crime? What is it you want us to teach our children? Mercy? Justice? Silence? Do Jesuits want us to make up our own tenets to follow as practicing Catholics? Oh, wait, if the church says no then we are obliged to be obedient even though you seem to scorn any polarized view of sin? You are confusing me and you have lovely dispositions but I can't keep watching your channel.
On your first few questions, Priests are bound by the seal of Confession, meaning that the Priest that are being confessed to of crimes-no matter how heinous they are(except in some cases, e.i. abortion)- are bound to never say any of to anyone, even to their fellow Priest. It is not really a conflict of interest because Theologically speaking, the Priest is just the instrument used by God to reconcile the penitent unto Himself and by the penitent to reconcile himself to God. That is why the sacrament is also called the sacrament of reconciliation. And so the Priest's interest must not interfere with the Sacrament, even after it is done.
I think I get confused about God's mercy in the sacrament and God's justice after we die. I want justice today, now, you know?! I have to wait and pray for my enemies. My family welcomes practicing homosexuals, fornicators, drug addicts, and pro-choice "Catholics" who say they follow the "don't ask, don't tell" unspoken rule with their priests and go to Communion despite not believing in the presence of Jesus (there is no offense when there is no God). I ask them why they still call themselves Catholic and they say they want to. I don't know how to talk to them about faith and morals. It is frustrating and scary. All these secrets I don't wish to keep. I would rather not know. There is even a defrocked priest in my family for crimes against a child. What can I say to any of them? I avoid family reunions like the plague...Jesus told us to leave when others do not respect God. It is frustrating!
And there are satanist and occultist necromancers and witches in my family! I think they are delusional and deranged but can't tell them this. They have all said my belief as a Christian is the wrong path to spiritual enlightenment. I think that they are de-evolving spiritually. We are at a standstill. I run around splashing holy water around the house after they have walked around the house with burning incense and incantations for protection from evil spirits. It's crazy! I stick out like a sore thumb nowadays. I still don't know how to welcome people who reject the light of Christ. It's just creepy! Like I said we need more direction from the pulpit. Thanks for your patience with my "ten - second snit".
People who tell others that they are "heretics" are not reflecting Christ's ways of love and meeting others where they are. Jesus repeatedly showed he was not as concerned with legalism as he was with the ultimate laws of love, compassion, forgiveness, and mercy.
Jesus did offend people with the truth. Sometimes ithe loving thing to do is speak a painful truth to someone. Is it never right to speak plainly about being a heretic to explain what that means ?
When one clings tightly to any one theology, philosophy, or ideology they always leave some one out....Jesus never left anyone out. The church leaves divorced Catholics out, women out, the LGBTQ individuals out. God is not Catholic nor Jewish nor Hindu, nor Buddha, nor Muslim, etc.....GOD IS LOVE....Follow love, compassion, generosity, and kindness.....inclusive of ALL with a welcoming Spirit.
Spoken like Judas himself
@@donnaerpelding5194keep your falsely welcoming spirit - the Holy Ghost is good enough for the rest of us ;)
Jesus forgives sin and tells and warns the sinner not to return to the sin. Welcoming is not condoning the sinful behavior.
I can't accept an infallible ex cathedra decree so I cant accept the Vatican 1 infallible definition of ex cathedra decrees. Both come with automatic anathema. So I am not to receive sacraments until I am united again with the de fide fairh/dogma of the church. Even a bishop or pope can't change an immutable , itreformable dogma. I can't accept the ex cathedra in Cantate Domino that all Jews and pagans etc must go to hell unless united with the actual visible church before they die. This excludes baptisms of desire etc. An anathema is so serious for all of us. What can I do? I tried everything.
When one clings tightly to any one theology, philosophy, or ideology they always leave some one out....Jesus never left anyone out. The church leaves divorced Catholics out, women out, the LGBTQ individuals out. God is not Catholic nor Jewish nor Hindu, nor Buddha, nor Muslim, etc.....GOD IS LOVE....Follow love, compassion, generosity, and kindness.....including ALL with a welcoming Spirit.
Are there any religious order for women that follow the Jesuit charism?
there are MANY ignatian feminine orders/congregations !
Yes indeed. The Institute of the Blessed Virgin Mary - also known as the Congregation of Jesus or the Loretto Sisters. Founded by a 16th cent woman called Mary Ward, converted to Catholicism when it could have got her killed, wanted to educate girls, traveled to Rome, was refused the right to establish an order devoted to women’s education and just carried on teaching girls anyway. The Holy Spirit quickly made up for the Holy Sees initial prejudice and the order was soon permitted. Mother Theresa left the Loretto Sisters to found the Missionaries of Charity. There’s a lot here in the UK where they were founded but I think there’s some in the US and all over the world really. Wonderful, generous and liberal order. Feminists in habits in a way - except they don’t really wear habits any longer
One of my partners close friends has actually just professed in the Loretto Sisters (hence how I know about them - visited the museum in the convent in York). An extraordinary strong highly educated and deeply critical young woman. The very last person society would expect to become a nun but the Loretto Sisters are a perfect home
Hi..please can somebody tell us
@@charleshofman7637 i think i saw a post about the xavieri sisters in france
❤️
love these videos
“I feel like I’m not worthy”
Well, we aren’t 🤷♀️
Are they priests or philosophers ? I like them very charming monks
I came for an answer and got sophistry
What answer were you hoping for?
don't give up willing to keep on dying to your old self, cos this, and yes no other, is the way Jesus is giving you his ever new truly universal self - don't give up dying to yourself cos that is the way God's life works you over into his communal self of the Trinity, where each divine person is fully given over to the other without holding back through some particularity held on to in exclusivity i.e what we should call our ordinary sinfulness.
Let's still dare use older, really clearer, formulations of ever illuminative revealed truths. The dying bit is the harsh wording in our snowflake lands, but snow flakes die rapidly anyway, and they will find out sooner than later, so why avoid or obscure the truly good way of entering into the inevitable. It's the dying that is the good part really, cos that's the way God's full otherness is received as a liberation of what will always be somehow our still sinfull life. No man more purified of sin than the Cardoner visionary, no man still so scrucupulous afterward. He received a full saintly gift, yet he had to hold on to what he had seen even if he could never ever forget it, as he was divinely blessed, but not yet divinised, right...? The already but still not yet kinda thing.
So, an altogether nice, correct, amiably intelligent conversation, true also, but I am not sure its kindly unstoppable need to somehow sweet talk wherever possible is as helpfull as it could....No offense though, dear brothers, and i hope none is taken where none was given, but i tend to believe ever more firmly, at 63, that some of the old language is like the good old language of the good old doctors of yonder years, language of the "stop kidding yourself"-injunction style. Not the overbearing commanding style neither, but yes, a clearer injunction style, as old damned earthquakes keep on happening also, with 8000 lives snapped like sticks in a moment's notice. And i am not saying God showed us some pent up anger here. But let's get somewhat clearer on the good dying part and some of it's urgency, given all this godddamned kinda dark dying in what one used to call, without resentment, acts of God. No woke whatsoever but yes more wakefulness in vigorous Jesuslike "cut he crap" -style, I guess.
Book wisdom.
To deny any doctrine is a serious problem. Of course we all fall…but to deny a doctrine or dogma in order to satisfy our own personal beliefs or feelings is clearly sinful.
Yes, they call us towards holiness and we often fall short. I know I do…but to deny the teaching is the real problem. The things I fall short on I admit are real teachings and therefore I go to confession when I fail to live them. The problem is those who deny the teachings and therefore see no need to confess sins in violation of them. In fact, many priests and prelates implicitly deny the Church’s teachings. If they didn’t, the Faithful would understand the gravity of the teachings better. Instead, they keep getting license to sin from the very men who should be guiding them away from it.
Wow, very well said.
It's cause most things aren't so black and white mate.
I don’t think this video is capturing the real question. It’s not, “Can I accidentally or lazily fail to follow church teaching and still be Catholic?” Its, “Can I willfully reject church teaching and still be Catholic?”
The former is simple human frailty, where we’re trying to follow the teaching but come up short - not because we disagree with teaching, but because we all struggle with our fallen nature. The Fathers in the video are right, that’s what reconciliation is for.
But in the latter scenario - one in which you are willfully rejecting church teaching because you think it’s wrong or too hard for you to follow, and you are no longer open to having your mind and heart changed - you have effectively rejected Catholicism itself, and what it teaches about God’s will for us.
I don’t see how the latter can be acceptable for someone who wants to be called a Catholic.
I love the idea these presenters have of the church as a family heritage - the “faith of our ancestors”. The church is an inter generational passing down of a way of living that has been successfully tried and proven over thousands of years.
Hello
Did Dr. Martin Luther King "think like a Jesuit?"
You have discern in yourself if such and such a teaching is actually healthy. Most of the time the answer is no.
ask questions? then question authority. develop critical thinking . ...... but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. takes more work to achieve decisions based on good conscience.
As an American I tend to follow the law 😂 ? Gimme a break !!
Answer. Yes you do Jesuits, especially the Bible and whatJesus said.
The Church IS God, he created the Church for your spiritual health, not for your controlling of it or molding it to suite your own wants and desires.
No human can one up the Trinity.
You never speak of prayer and obedience to it. What’s that about ?
There’s a difference between dogma and doctrine. Doctrines derive from dogma and do change. Study history. Ultimately one’s conscience is supreme. Love God and do as you will
The catechism says conscience is prime but not supreme
Our conscience is willed and formed by our intellect. People hide behind their conscience for justification of their action. There's infallible ignorance or a poorly formed conscience. Most people do not do their due diligence in trying to understand Church teaching with that they put their soul at risk.
This is so wrong
We need to put our faith in the FINISHED WORK OF THE CROSS!
Hebrews 10:12
Authorized (King James) Version
“12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;”
John 19:30
Authorized (King James) Version
“30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.”
Romans 3:24
“being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:”
Romans 3:28
“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
Ephesians 1:7
“in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;”
Ephesians 4:32
“and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.”
Colossians 1:14
“in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:”
Colossians 2:13
“And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
MODERNISM. 101!!!!!!!!!!!
I think you are making this way too complicated.
«Cito catechesis est appellata nisuum summa in Ecclesia susceptorum ut discipuli arcesserentur, ut homines iuvarentur ad credendum Iesum esse Filium Dei idque credentes vitam haberent in nomine Eius, ut iidem educarentur et in hac vita instituerentur et sic corpus Christi aedificaretur.»
If I am not mistaken, Jesuits were created by st. Ignatius Loyola to defend and preach Catholicism. Not to destruct it and preach modernistic and protestant teachings.
No.
God forbid the church update its teachings -- omg. Fires of hell will consume you. A lot of people need to grow up and move forward and understand nothing and nobody is infallible and nothing and nobody is exempt from examination and tweaking. We learn and grow and move forward. If you don't want to do that, then get left behind and stay in a small, limited world.
Eff yes we must follow all the Church teachings to be a Catholic - and that is just the table ante, the starting point. It can take us a while to get there, but we must try to understand and accept church teachings without specious justifications for dissenting against them or carving out exceptions. Yes, we all fall short in many ways but we must never say it’s ok or that doesn’t apply to me. The Gospels remind us over and over again that the way we are to love God is by doing his will and keeping his commandments. Ignoring or dissenting from Catholic dogma and moral precepts is not love of God but hateful rebellion against him. The Jezzies are always attempting end runs around God's truth. They dress it up as a deeper truth but in reality they are pridefully saying non serviam!
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven." MT 5:17-19
To be a Catholic? Is that in the creed? So no sinners are in the Church? You are spouting heresy. Google which particular heresy you are promoting.
I’ll give you a hint: Cathari and Albigensian
When one clings tightly to any one theology, philosophy, or ideology they always leave some one out....Jesus never left anyone out. The church leaves divorced Catholics out, women out, the LGBTQ individuals out. God is not Catholic nor Jewish nor Hindu, nor Buddha, nor Muslim, etc.....GOD IS LOVE....Follow love, compassion, generosity, and kindness.....including ALL with a welcoming Spirit.
You are perfectly right brother. St John tells us " If you love God, then you obey His commandments and His commandments are not burdensome." . And there are passages in the scripture that specifically states the path to heaven and to hell. Jesus himself said in Matthew " “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.". We can not water this down . While its true that we are not perfect and will never be perfect here on earth but we must strive as Jesus said Be Perfect for your Father in Heaven is perfect. Of course , we have to be compassionate and accompanying but we can not teach people short of striving to obey every teaching of Jesus Christ through the magisterium of the Church. We do have to be patient with one another as we will fall time and time again but we must remain grounded on desiring and pursuing what Jesus wants us to and how He wants us to live our lives. In fact we can be liable at the end to say otherwise.
@@donnaerpelding5194 God is love indeed but it is revealed in Jesus Christ. It is experienced through Jesus Christ whom God sent in order that we may have eternal life. And Jesus Christ establish the church, he being the head and we being the body, as a way of propagating this authentic love of God and the depository of the authentic truth. And the Holy Mother Church do welcome all and hopes for all and prays for all that all may have salvation but it also has to speak for the sake of the salvation of the soul about what will not bring us salvation and true charity demands that She the church must not only accompany a person for his/her temporal good but eventually what will lead him/her to eternal destiny; the more important one. And this we can hear how, through the scriptures. The Lord loves all of us through the church as all of us are sinners and in loving us desires that we get to heaven to be with Him. The question then is what is Jesus telling us in order to get to heaven? WIll we follow Him?
If your conscience tells you that abortion is OK, then your conscience is wrong. Our conscience is not absolute. We need to follow church teaching, even when we disagree with it.
Your nuts!!!!!!!!!! Jesus said"those that say lord, lord shall not enter the kingdom of heaven! Only those you do the will of my father will go to heaven/!Have you ever heard of confession. We must obey God's will or we don't love God/first commandment.
Y’all are totally impervious to how divisive this sort of rhetoric is. Not only does it fly in the face of what we know to be true based on the established doctrines of the Church, but it sows so much confusion that is otherwise easily avoided…
To be anything but Catholic is dissent.
Being Modern Jesuits ,, they will say “yes!! Dissent on everything!!!0
This is pathetic. Catholic Church teaching: DO NOT THINK FOR YOURSELF!
But drawing others into your own sin and confusion is very dangerous because you are responsible for your neighbors sin by following your sin.
From this talk I learned that dissenting from magisterium of the Church is OK, as long as I formally do not leave the church, but continue to contribute money. In exchange I will get ‘feel good’ morality, together with group of friends who feel the same and support each other in their dissent. Thank you Jesuits! Thank you pope Francis!
Hmm, that’s kind of a ridiculous take. Perhaps more time reading the Gospel’s would be helpful
@@Ericviking2019 hmm…that is what I heard from these two men. Read gospels? Sure! But I f you mean to read them like the Jesuits do? Thank you but - no, thank you!
"Do I have to follow every church teaching?" Basically, yes. If you think other wise, you are Jesuit from America magazine, not a normal Catholic.
You have to follow your well-formed conscience wherever it leads you. To ignore your well-formed conscience is sinful.
@@lizbueding2626 I don't think you listened to the entire video. A well informed conscience would not lead you to remain in explicitly rejecting a dogma of the Church. We aren't "bound" by our conscience, but trust the Church. The Protestant worldview claims through their teaching of the "right" of private judgement otherwise.
@@lizbueding2626 So, when my "well-formed" concience tell me that killing unborn babies is ok, it is okey. But, when this same "well-formed" concience tell me to be racist it is, miricle, suddenly not well-formed? This is what this crap of "well-formed" concience mean in practices and I don't believe in any of it.
I think you're confusing these guys with people that don't think critically. They are actual priests and published authors that have eight degrees in philosophy and theology between them. Their answer is going to be a little more complex than you might be ready for. So, maybe Jesuits aren't for you; SSPX might be more your speed.
@@OMurchadha "I think you're confusing these guys with people that don't think critically." Maybe you don't noticed that "critically thinking" is not equal to "slavishly obidience to prograssive talking points".
Praying for the suppression of jesuits.