Critique of Westside with Chad Wesley Smith & Dr. Mike Israetel | JTSstrength.com
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- Опубликовано: 1 июл 2024
- Westside Barbell has dominated multiply powerlifting, but how does it's system work for raw lifters? Dr. Mike Israetel and Chad Wesley Smith discuss its pros and cons for the raw lifter:
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I get the feeling from watching this that Chad truly hates Westside, while Dr. Mike really doesn't mind it.
In my opinion west side is the meat head douche bag old way of training, lot of short cuts with form and looking to game the game.. there is a funny ass video showing their guy squat next to Olympic lifters and it’s hilarious
How interesting. In all seriousness, why is westside hated, they have a lot of world records right? They're one of the best yes?
@@sabertoothwallaby2937 Well, they have world records in small federations with not so many lifters, multi-ply is almost dead so a multi-ply world record is nowhere near as impressive as an ipf world record, but Westside likes to ignore this in order to boast about how great they are.
@@emiljorgensen5340 then why have they begun training raw and novice powerlifters in the past several years? Your opinion sounds straight from 2002
@@Theroadneverending It's just a different sport than raw powerlifting. Don't compare them.
That was really interesting. It felt more like 15 minutes to me - that's what I like in your videos. The info is put together in a very approachable way.
"supplements"
LOL I thought the same thing
steroids
me: (is natural, lifts raw, running westside and making progress) alrighty
@ 5:15 obvious acne on deltoids. I think it's fair to say Westside isn't the only ones using "supplements."
im pretty sure everyone knows mike is on the soviet supplements xD
juggernaut training systems I appreciate the info y'all share and will apply it to my training keep up the good work
We can sit here and debate or critique Westside technique all day, the truth is that there is something about THAT gym, that attitude, that atmosphere that is just different and savage compared to perhaps any other in this country. I don't think Westside method is for everyone, especially not raw lifters. However, I think anyone who trains at Westside or follows Westside philosophy will absolutely improve in whatever they are doing. That's really the key Westside brings to the table, and that is backed up by testimony from everyone who ever trained there, even if they didn't subscribe to everything Louie said. Mark Bell, Dave Tate, Wenning, Efferding, JM Blakely, and many other greatly respected coaches and powerlifters all agree about one thing when it comes to Westside... it brings out the absolute BEST in you, and the atmosphere pushes you beyond what you thought possible. There have been many guys who trained there who took the principles they acquired and became very successful coaches or businessmen in their own right. I named a few of those guys above. There's MORE to Westside than the method. That's the real truth of it.
Equipped = very gay
@@CCSABCD No, very gay is what you turned out to be, despite all the efforts of your parents to find you a mate.
@@maxxxmodelz4061 No need to get so butthurt gay man
@@CCSABCD My butt never hurts, gay for pay.
@@maxxxmodelz4061 Why are you telling everyone what you do for money man, have some privacy
I'm glad you guys are doing this video series on programs! Great job with the video breakdown.
Brandon Lilly got butt hurt as fuck over this video. He went on record to say that he couldn't even squat 600 pounds raw after he took his gear off and left westside.
You do realize that he got kicked out of WSBB for stealing and selling fake roids? Even though Louie and him have reconciled I'm disappointed he would still continue to bash Westside.
Source on that?
I think conjugate training can absolutely work for raw lifters provided you do the exercises that promote raw lifting. I don't know how much training Louie ever did with raw competitor other than with that SHW who was removed from membership due to not being able to be there enough - but the guy wasn't there long enough to see what he could do under that system and was already strong when he got there. I am friends with a guy who trained there and he has told me that just because the day calls for ME or DE does not mean it always ends up that way. If you're beat up, ME is not gonna happen. There's a lot of rehab work going on as well. Lots of people critique based on what info is out there, but remember, its only a template or guide. Louie isn't dumb. If he was gonna train raw competitors, it certainly would be different exercises and minor changes in percentages, sets, reps, etc, but the methods and theory would remain the same.
spot on chad!!! I'm a raw squatter but I use box squats as an accessory. free squatting is no issue I'm told I squat too deep lol but box squats for me are to really hit hips and abductors. love the content man
this is gonna be an awesome series.. looking forward to it!
Subscribed and I also purchased your book 7 scientific principles of strength training and it helped me massively. Many thanks guys.
Really looking forward to this series!
awesome upload. please keep them coming. learning a lot.
oh god yes. this series is gonna be amazing
Love Louie and I do ''conjugate'' my way and they work. But I never run westside system because I compete raw. Id run a 6 weeks cycle peak program for meet, but Id never done westside peak cycle, like most people say raw lifters need to get used to the movement. Like what Ed Coan say stick to what ever works! Great video guys! (Y)
They train raw nearly year round
You two talking together is amazing ! The depth of knowledge between the two of you is insane! So much respect for both of you !
Yeah! I'm really looking forward to this series! I've been waiting for something like this since Powerliftingtowin ended his series. From what I've seen here, your conclusions seem pretty similar to his. Looking forward for more!
As someone who is in exercise science I love this channel!!!
Great review guys!
great stuff Chad as always. Wasn't just a video saying " this way is bad, don't do it bla bla buy this." nice in depth explanation I enjoyed it
Really enjoyed this discussion, felt like I learnt a lot about programming and progression in general as well as gaining a greater understanding of Westside
I watched the video and learned something today. i don't know it all
I train conjugated periodization, volume, bodybuilding. All of the above
Do I follow a concrete Westside template, with speed work, pendulum waves, and so forth? No
Tons of strongman guys I train and compete with use pieces of WSBB, but not the entire system
The video was professionally done, and you both speak with class, sophistication, and eloquence.
Keep up the good work
Great video lads. Would love to see a video on your thoughts with regards to frequency of the lifts and how it changes.
Thanks. Here ya go: ruclips.net/video/-iV1N4gjGoA/видео.html
Awesome discussion, glad I discovered you channel big Chad.
Love this, thanks guys. Had no idea about hypertrophy phases being beneficial 20+ weeks down the line. Guess I've been too impatient.
FWIW, Louie says clearly here that his lifters use 75%-85% on speed squat day for an average of 25 lifts. With bands, this will be 50%-60% in bar weight and 25% in band tension. This has always been the case. His speed squat "load" has always been 75%-85% with bands.
50% +25% band tension isn't the same as 75% straight weight.
And you shouldn't be doing triples with 75% if you want hypertrophic/strength gains.
excellent discussion. i'd be interested to see your guys thoughts on a non-westside concurrent training system vs more of a block style periodization which seems to be more in line with the things i've seen on the JTS site
+The Strength Doc Thanks. In brief, the concurrent part is going to be where it falls down, so at phase potentiation it will be lacking, but keep in mind that is one of the lowest ranking principles so you could still have a very effective program.
Juggernaut Training Systems thanks for the response! i was expecting that to be the answer just didn't want to make any assumptions without hearing from you
+Juggernaut Training Systems think you'll ever do a video series for older strength athletes (banged up 40+yr olds)?
Well, first of all, this did seem like a rather neutral video and not just a long rant of westside bashing, so I really do appreciate that. Now, I won't go into the details of everything but just say some general stuff because referring to it all would take forever. On thing is the definition of westside. I can't very well know all the sources but to my understanding Louie has always talked about individuality in choice of exercises as well as individual weaknesses and so on. And while they rather largely use the same template, some guys at Westside, like some bench only guys, have strayed away from that template. What I am trying to say is that Westside in itself is done in a way that worked for the guys there rather similarly most of the time BUT imo it is still Westside, if some changes are made because making those changes is in the nature of the programme. It's not just something that you should blindly follow but rather constantly think about.
Now I myself am not a world class lifter. I would say that at my best (before my recent injury) I was fairly strong on a national level, competing in the middleweights as a natty, junior RAW lifter. So I am certainly not among the best by any means but it's safe to say that I've been around the block and tried some things. In terms of hypertrophy, once I started using the concurrent method, I (over a few years) really blew up in strength and size compared to where I was before. Until my injury I also made rather steady improvements every year. If I compared myself to my usual competitors of the same height, I was definitely more muscular, most of the time. That's not to say anything about the importance of that fact, in the end strength is king in powerlifting, but in my own case, Westside was awesome for hypertrophy. I also noticed that the focus on the posterior chain was a godsend for me, as my lifts always improved better the more I hit that chain. I had a phase for 3 months where I listened to all the anti Westside articles and tried to switch my focus to quad training, front squats, high bar squats, close stance and all that (mind you, I don't squat very wide in competition as well, just because my mobility isn't well enough for that, so the movements should have been better in terms of specificity) with the same template and what happened? My squat dropped 10-20%, as did my deadlift. It was a disaster. Now I am not saying that this is how it is for everyone but for me, obviously, sticking to Louie's ideas worked better. Same goes for the deadlift. I used deadlift variations, sometimes 20% of my ME days to sometimes 50% or so of my ME days, but never used my comp style deadlift in training. And still, it is my strongest lift by far, making up roughly 40% of my total. So obviously, all this worked for me.
I have switched to another system only once since 2012. I did so while I was in a weaker phase, just having finished a cut that went worse than it should have. Anyway, it felt good for about one and a half weeks, which is when the high frequency and high volume at complex barbell movements (the comp lifts) really took their toll. I had beat up wrists, elbows and knees, as well as a constantly cramped up QL muscle but most importantly, I injured my right glute, which kicked me out of the circuit for a year. This took its toll mentally, resulting in me losing the will to lift for quite a while and not getting back to my personal best since. I am just now in the process of really getting back up and reclaiming that drive to get to the top. As for the bench, I did manage to reach about the same strength or a bit more than that for a time, training with the same high frequency programme but bench only, but my technique went to shit, despite all that specific preparation that supposedly should have helped me.
Now there are aspects of "westside" that work for a lot of people but not for me. I really struggled improving my bench despite getting really strong triceps (and always having had very strong shoulders). The reason was, simply, that my chest lacked. But "westside" is not just training your arms. It's training your weaknesses, which for most people means working their arms. I've trained a couple of people in my home gym over the years and I am the only one that lacked in the chest department. Everyone else lacked lockout and arm strength. So for them that was great. For me the weakness was just different and when I made the switch to more focus on my weaknesses, my bench went up by 15% in 2 months. So was the system the problem? No, it was just the way I used the system. I also have found that I made better progress not just maxing out but rather choosing max effort volume according to Prilepin's chart, i.e. I made smaller jumps in weight in order to have more heavy singles, doubles or triples (4-10 total reps in the 90% range). However, this may have led to my tendency to peak and burn out, then peak and burn out again. But I have always had that tendency, so who knows?
I know that I am mostly rambling here and this is taking way too long to type out, so let me just conclude:
- I see your arguments and I appreciate the effort to spell things out and reason
- despite that, most of what Louie prescribes has worked so much better for me than anything else I ever did
- I disagree with your definition of "Westside" (which I am unsure whether to even use as a term bc as far as I remember they only ever speak of the conjugate or concurrent method themselves)
- building on that, one of THE corner stones of this system is individuality, subtle changes to cater to the one's personal needs and weakness analysis and work on those weaknesses. Having said that, I don't think that the rules of "Westside" can be set in stone as they are always treated to be
- and building on that, I have made some minor changes for myself but feel certain that those don't change the nature of the system
- finally I have never been seriously injured until I strayed away from the system
So all in all: it just works for me. I can't speak for anyone else, really, but for me it was the best thing since sliced bread. But if other things work better for others, then they should do that. Just don't write this system off as being "just for equipped lifters" or "just for juice heads".
Thank you for sharing this story. I hope you managed to get back to where you wanted to be
love the vide! more pls!
Always learn so much from JTS. I think from some of the comments some people think conjugate periodization and Westside are the same thing.
great talk ! DUP vs block periodization next?
This is gonna be an awesome series. I think u both did a good job stating the pros and cons of westside. I didn't see this being negative at all. This series can be helpful to a lot of ppl. Great idea and great video.
Conjugate is the only way I'll train. People go way overboard with specificity. If you make your normal training harder then what you have to do in competition, it's hard to lose. Period. I definitely gained strength fastest using a juggernaut type program. But I also gained nagging injuries, and mental fatigue to the point where I took a year off just because I couldn't stand training anymore. Linear periodization took the joy out of training for me. Conjugate allows to me to have fun with something different every single week. I'd rather gain strength slower over time and enjoy the process.
hell yeah
Too much specificity causes injuries
@@Yeomannnexactly, You dont have time to recover from that specific stimulus
@@mac5917 Which over time leads to stagnation and injuries because the body has already become adapted to that specific stressor and needs a new one. It's basically like continuing to hammer wood after a nail is already in it. The nail (stressor) has already done it's job, the wood (body) needs another nail. If you keep hammering the same nail, the wood is eventually going to break. If pure specificity was the answer, then all we would need to do is squat, bench, and deadlift. Clearly that is not the case. Furthermore, if linear periodization was the answer, then we would all be inhumanly strong. Again, clearly false. Progress is slow, and it's not linear at all, so why would we use a linear system to progress?
Would like to see a critique on a DUP-style program next! Always enjoy these vids with Dr. Israetel
Wow great video. You guys could have just said why you don't like it and it would have been like 10 minutes, but you gave real reasons why it isn't optimal which I really appreciate. Learned a lot thank you.
Amazing video. I can't wait to see the rest of the videos in this series. I just finished a conjugate program, and Im so glad that you addressed the phasic structure of it (even though conjugate isn't necessarily westside). Im a relatively new lifter, and long-term success is my main goal, thanks for clearing that up!
ME day is more so just to teach how to properly strain. And they also for DE they use 60% bar weight plus 20-30% band or chain tension. And they recommend just using 70-75-80% straight up weight if you don’t have access to that specialty stuff :)
Awesome, thanks!
Great critique! Very logical and remain objective throughout all arguments.
it is very logical but their starting premises are inaccurate due to a poor understanding of the methods
Things are constantly changing at Westside, over the last year I have seen more 5x5 and 6x6s on dynamic effort lower day done on the mens side than I have seen of the old 8x2 speed squats. Same on bench, tons more volume and things are constantly changing. I coach mostly raw lifters and I agree we need a ton more raw volume free squat work. I took some stuff from Jesse Norris' program and added it to what I was taught at Westside years ago and that's how we do things now.. We add in extra days after the main days all the time (mostly a front squat day). So do I program "Westside"..I guess not.Maybe your doctor friend trained WS wrong when he tried it. Ask Chuck V is there is sandbagging at Westside lol
Thanks Gracie
The original westside template which is STILL VERY HEAVILY advocated by westside lifters, does say that in westside, you're doing max or dynamic effort every week. and for speed squats, 1-2x7-10 is still utilized as the main speed rep/set range for lifters at westside barbell club. So your variations of the westside barbell program may be very effective, its still certainly not westside. Also no one in this whole video said that lifters at westside barbell club were/ are sandbagging. And yes, raw lifters do indeed need more volume, which you noted, but that's not westside. Also you've seen more volume being done by westside lifters because they're lifting raw more, which is the ENTIRE point of this video, to show that traditional westside is not for raw lifters.
+Juggernaut Training Systems what are the categorical guidelines for smaller, medium and larger lifters?
Height would have to be taken into account but generally I'd say
Thank you. I think I have a decent idea now.
The guys at massthetics, made a conjuring program for raw lifters and its seems to be very well done. I see people getting a lot stronger, very fast on it.
I think because of the low volume (more volume than westside, though) people aren't seeing great hypertrophy gains, but rather get really efficient with the muscle that they have. Great video, keep it up.
Would you consider making a video regarding GPP in the context of general strength training or powerlifting?
I'd love to see that, because there's a lot of differing opinions on the matter; most recommend sled work, which you suggest is suboptimal yet some recommend pushups, pullups, battle rope and shooting hoops as part of their GPP. It's very confussing.
Your content is amazing as always! Thank you
Chernyak and Jay Schroeder have stated (paraphrase) that "speed work recovers the body".
I am sure that the dynamic effort day does develop a form of "explosiveness" but there's a strong
chance that recovery has been enhanced as well. Oh and by the way I like your GPP analysis.
Great critique.
Dr. Israetel, THANK YOU for using the correct definition of GPP. I hate that the term GPP has essentially become synonymous with "physical fitness" and not as a part of a larger program leading into and supporting the goal of training.
Please do cube method for strongman 💪🏻 although I assume covering the cube or 365 strong would be the same as the program is structured similarly. Also would love to see more strongman content from you guys!!
great point about the suit..lotsa stuff to ponder
26:15 what he says about Matt Wenning vs intermediate lifters is so accurate. In order to take a training philosofy like Westside's and twist it to suit yourself at 225 lbs natural & lifting raw, you need to really think your rotation of exercises and volume through. It will probably not even be "pure Westside" anymore even though that's where your program originated from.
really like this video im a westside raw lifter but i program myself and it is heavily modified for me i box squat until my last 2 squat sessions i do believe that its not for beginners i lifted for 12 years before westside just my two cents also i do appreciate these videos they are helpful thanks
bob
Hey guys, could you make this available as an audio only version of the jugg life? Would love to be able to download and listen to it multiple times
One thing that Louie Simmons continue to point to for effectiveness of the Westside method is the record board. He shows that his method produces many strong power lifters. Isn’t the proof in the pudding the results?
It would be, except those records are from sky high squats and soft locked benches and squats in the least competitive divisions that powerlifting has to offer.
I think you may be forgetting that at greater joint flexion the lifter is operating at way less than 90% with bands and chains. So there is a lot of work being done at 60 to 80% of every rep. It is far more complex than just attributing a percentage to a rep or set.
You guys should do Daily undulating periodization
Where can I get a hard copy of the book? The site only offers an e-book.
Outstanding Points
I've got to do a critique of Westside for my MSc program. It would be really helpful to know a couple of research papers you gentlemen used for this video.
Ollie Driver I’d buy their book on principles. I hope that has references. Outside of that they go from the dome.
love the supplements comment....best critique I've seen of the west side system. .love the channel great knowledge. .keep it up..
how is it great critique if people at the top of RAW lifting who train in different ways also juice to the max?
+Tobias Ommer ...raw = lifter lift weight...geared = test elastic strength of fabric not lifter..critique clearly shows that the westside method is oriented towards geared lifters and will not suit raw...n yes it is a grt critique and i dont understand how your point makes it a poor one
+j.p. leahy because "supplements" means juice, not gear. at least "supplements" has been used to describe steroids by everyone else for years and years, so I dont think chad meant anything else
+Tobias Ommer I don't think you get it kido, too many supplements for u I'd say
j.p. leahy There's no reason to get all condescending. You're getting at using equipment, which is an entirely different thing that Chad talked about but that I am certain he didn't mean when he talked about supplements. Whether you are insinuating that I am using powerlifting gear or illegal substances: I do neither. That assumption is ridiculous.
You guy are the best. Thanks for changing my understanding of Westside training.
Those surprise competitions will kill ya. Loved the Windows update analogy. Perfect.
In a recent video I watched Louie talk about swapping speed day for a volume day when required and discussed 3 week waves of 5x5, as well as 6x6, 8x8 and even 10 x 10 if needed. He also discussed prioritising what’s needed and that could be wide grip bench for pecs or rollbacks etc for triceps. I think the volume is no different to say the Juggernaut method except one follows linear periodisation and the other doesn’t.
Volume is high asf on westside which people don't seem to get because it isn't done only through the big 3 like most programs.
hey chad, are you going to post the interview you did with matt wenning?? really interested to watch that one. 2 great strength coaches having a chat..
This critique is basically "why a program that wasn't designed for raw lifters doesn't work the best for raw lifters" oh wow that's neat and obvious
So louie's methodes are only for Equipped lifters?
@@borisrovchenko7747 Well planned conjugate training can fit anyone but the training done at Westside was most prevalent and got the most records with equipped powerlifting
Although a lot of their training was raw and they were all obviously super strong
People like Matt Wenning adapted Westside to his own version of conjugate after he left and took the world records at a Westside meet
So he got stronger and broke world records after he LEFT Westside because he fine tuned his training and actually allowed deload weeks and emphasized recovery
He also had world records in raw powerlifting
So conjugate works for most anyone as long as you know how to plan it but the balls to the wall 100mph every day training with Westside works best if you're equipped
You need to be an animal to hold 900lbs in your hands for a bench or 1200lbs in a squat even in a suit or shirt but with the assistance of the suits acting as a sort of "second muscle" and extra support they can get away with doing dynamic effort work that's too heavy and immense band tension that gets lighter at the bottom of the lift
Raw lifters need to build more muscle and get in good volume and work capacity
Westside did a lot of that but it needs to be tweaked and changed here and there to best fit someone who isn't a 300lb, world record holder, maniac, in prime 90s-00s Westside, and on steroids
@@BulkBrogan. got it, thanks mate💪 i get it💪💪
Good stuff
I love listening to west side content, and Louie was such a good spokesperson for his methods that every so often I’m thinking “I’m gonna do it, conjugate let’s go” then I watch dr mike and I’m like “oh yeah, not for me lol”
When we doin a overview of Grind supplements?
intelligent debate. Enjoyed a lot. Strange that bodybuilder was talking about not enough strength work and powerlifter talking about hypertrophy.
great video, that Dr. has the sickest quads
Are you guys planning on doing The Cube eventually?
Great video. I wanted to say that there is more to accommodating resistance than assisting the top part
of the lifts that need to be emphasized for the "shirt and suit elite". When one wants to use the barbell in let's
say the bench press for "explosiveness" accommodating resistance eliminates that "deceleration" that takes place.
Very valuable. In addition (not to be a name dropper) But Dragomir Cioroslan told me once (years ago) that a (any) routine designed to improve strength MUST satisfy 2 factors-Maximum Nervous system stimulus AND
hypertrophy. He reiterated immediately- YOU MUST HAVE BOTH!
There is still a deceleration no matter bands or chains, if there wasn’t, the bar wouldn’t stop at the top of the lift, it would leave your hands. If looking for upper body explosiveness, for say a football lineman or shot putter, supine medball throw variations and pushups onto boxes will be much more useful.
I completely agree with you. But if I am not mistaken that's what Louie stated concerning the purpose of bands and chains . I do not doubt that "explosive push-ups" and med ball throws would be a "go to" for football lineman and/or shot putters .
Can anyone recommend me a program? I'm currently running congujate but I want to switch it up. More volume would be good. I still want variations and 4 days a week would work best. Thanks.
I feel that some of their criticisms are misplaced because the system is for equipped powerlifters and they bring up novice lifters and raw powerlifters which just isn't the way to go. It'd be like me critiquing Caltech for not having enough humanities degree programs when the college is specifically for people who want to be Engineers or Physicists.
in certain ways
WHOOOOOOO
Also, some of their criticisms of Westside are flat out wrong and indicate a lack of knowledge.
Hey Chad for the Bulgarian System video are you bringing Max on for that one?
+bryan vela Yes most definitely
Interview burley hawk
good point
Chad if you had an opportunity to change what you did lifting and general prep wise as a track and field athlete, what would you do? You mentioned doing a lot of westside style conjugate work for shotput, do you think other methods would have given you more success?
Definitely would have changed a lot of things in hindsight. I had very high general indicators (lifting, jumping, sprinting results) that would have been more on par with someone throwing 22m, while I threw 19.50-20m. I should have taking a more submaximal approach in the weightroom (which would have ended up with me being just as strong but 2-4 years later in my career) and I could have taken that extra energy I was spending on ME weights and spent them on 1-more throwing and 2-more special strength exercises like rotational core strength drills.
Great video. Well worth the time. As a raw lifter, it's good to hear about programs that don't fit my goals. Obviously Westside works for some people, but one size definitely doesn't fit everyone.
What's that soundtrack in the beginning??
I always thought the the Power walks ( sled drags) were used more for warm up. or accessory. Hamstring dominance. Personally I love them but only ever use them for warm ups (light) or accessory ( relatively heavier).
What's your (or anyone's) opinion on kind of a squat to box with your regular stance, where you're not sitting back into the box, but just separating the concentric and eccentric portion of the lift?
Why not just do a pause squat?
it is very interesting to me that most Westside lifters are small. At least, smaller in the regard to RAW lifters. Such limited range of motion and lack of volume truly does limit muscle growth, which is very critical to natural RAW lifters. Great video. The haters will come, but I find all the points in this video extremely accurate. Plus, as said in previous comments, Chad does currently have the strongest PL team with him right now. Results speak for themselves
Have you ever met Dave Hoff? Jason Coker? Matt Wenning? They're all really, really big. Not to mention that guy who broke the American deadlift record from Westside. Can't remember his name
+David Brockmeier Well, I said in comparison to RAW lifters. Yes, Hoff is big, but compare him to Chad, Ray Williams, Brandon Allen, Josh Morris, etc. My point was that RAW lifters have to put more emphasis on every body part, and not just work on hamstrings for squats, or triceps for bench, etc....it's like Chad said. geared lifters put more emphasis on seperate parts, like rear delts for bench, whilst raw lifters must do more triceps and shoulder press, giving them a much bigger overall look.
Here, I am not a hater but I am a very astute thinker. Why don't you point out these extremely accurate points and school me. But take note of them first, because most are bashing methods, that have nothing to do with the system. JTS and WSB are systems, methods are used in these systems, and can be changed. Methods do not define systems, except possibly in the minds of newbs, or someone selling a different system So I will be waiting for these "points" that show the JTS system will work better than the WSB system.
That's because raw lifters are on more drugs.
Dr.isratel! I have found You agian!
Every time I try and construct a Westside type program with an appropriate stimulus on the secondary day, it pretty much comes out looking like a 4 day Texas Method.
They train for wearing a suit or shirt in comp. So it is effective for that style.
Westside's response to this video is over 140 World Records
in the loosest judged, least competitive divisions possible.
Juggernaut Training Systems the success of westside, and it is successful, is the hyper competitive atmosphere. One Can argue about training techniques all day long but there is no argument that a super competitive atmosphere will produce champions. More gyms would do well to mimic the atmosphere rather than focusing on the particular training methods.
Love West Side!!!💪💪
Can you do Mike T's RTS?
I think this is great. It is very fair, and i dont see this as bashing at all. I would like to see sheiko, cube, ed coans program, and maybe some programs of other elite lifters. I would also like to hear what changes for "non-tested lifter" and what programs work better for stronger lifter, 700+ squats do a lot of cns damage. I feel like taking a nap after, not doing volume work lol
I would love more of a critique on the conjugate methodology concept as opposed to what Louie Simmons is doing because many people come to the conclusion that things need to be modified so they definitely aren't doing exactly what Louie is, so in that case it's not Westside. When looking at different periodization models choosing to do a block/phasic system or training multiple qualities within the week can become confusing. For instance, I used to do what Charles Poliquin espoused with a phase of accumulation and then a phase of intensification but there wasn't enough discussion on how long those phases should be and he used a 3 rep bracket such as 3-5 reps, 6-8 reps, 2-4 reps, 8-10 reps but the problem is some of those can easily overlap poorly where the contrast seems to small. In your opinion is a conjugate system worth doing at all, or is block periodization always better if it's intelligently designed?
More programming review videos like this please.
Can you guys do The Texas Method?
+Taylor Plum Texas method is probably the best early intermediate program basically. Can't go wrong with it.
+Tushar Bharadwaj Mike and Chad probably don't like it. It's low volume and poorly balanced
it's a weekly peak. Chad and Dr. Israetel probably wont like it since they're a huge fan of block periodization even for novices
Not sure why they wouldn't like it. Chad uses what he calls the "Cowboy Method" which is just an inverted Texas method.
Why not? He is right.
Hard to deny that it works for a few certain people? Is this a case for this is great geared pharma enhanced athletes? I do not say either is bad just think a lot of programs work or dont work based on the person and where they are in the lifting journey.
two words, Burley Hawk
PlutoTheGod he’s back at Westside btw. Looks to be lighter. Hope he’ll come out of retirement soon.
It would be cool to see a video looking at how Westside works for an athlete in a sport outside of powerlifting and other weight training sports. It is apparent that there are a lot of problems with Westside for raw powerlifters who are trying to increase their total, but if could have less problems and more benefits for people in other sports. Would be cool to see a video on this since Westside is probably the most popular weight training protocol for athletes.
In brief, it places far too much emphasis on maximal effort lifting (1-3rm maxes weekly) which in addition to just not being the best way to develop maximal strength in the long term as discussed in this video, it is also unnecessarily stressful to the nervous system, taking up too much of the athletes energy on what basically amounts to very general work (sport training and spp drills are specific, lifting is general) this taking away from the amount of work with higher transfer can be done. Also, the lack of phasic structure is problematic, as sport training will benefit from times of more general and more specific training from a skill and energetic standpoint.
+Juggernaut Training Systems Thanks for the response. This makes sense
Chad mustnt have enough of hate from the westside trolls lol I loved the video bruv, keep em coming
+Syrus Kite I stay fighting the good fight in the face of trolls.
+Juggernaut Training Systems hell yeah! Im currently on my 3rd JuggerCube run, had tried it 2 times before to awesome results. Took a year off doing bodybuilding style workouts to build muscle and currently 2 months in on this one. Love your work Chad! After watching this Im rethinking the chest supported dumbell rows on bench day. But Ill definately look up another Juggernaut program afterwards. Theres a bunch of different styles of programs that people are taking at my gym from sheiko to bulgarian and rpe variations but none of them are making my sort of gains. Different training regiments must help people right? But Im getting older and I wana make sure my moves are towards efficiency rather then beating in the bush trying different programs. Thanks again I really appreciate the Juggernaut teams insight into strength
I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Lilliebridge Method
Great video you guys always put out great content. Parts of conjugate training like variation to fix weak points ("you can't fix your squat by squatting you need to do other exercises that fix the source of your weak points") makes some sense to me but when learned individuals like Chad and Mike disagree in favour of more specificity in training I find it a difficult to reconcile the two. Matt Wenning stands behind conjugate training and westside principles (i.e. more lat engagement on the bench, hip/glute dominant squats with a more vertical shin angle) and clearly has a lot of success with it. Is someone like him the exception to the rule? Do PED's dictate what training philosophy is optimal for the individual?
Make sure the remember that Westside is a conjugate system but not all conjugate systems are Westside. Matt is certainly very successful with more Westside inspired training but if you look at top raw lifting, he is in the small minority in his training style. Drug use will influence MRV and many other important factors but those can usually be addressed with adjustments to training. Read this: www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2015/08/25/snowflake-training/
+Juggernaut Training Systems Thanks so much for the prompt reply, looking forward to more of these. I purchased Scientific Principles a few months ago and thought it was great anyone reading this should get it.
If you haven't trained at westside it's difficult to critique westside. Just my 2cc's.
Chad has a stick up his ass about WSBB for reasons unknown. Since its popular to bash the system, he does it knowing it'll generate traffic for his site
Westside Strong right. All he's trying to do is promote his program to make money.
he's explained many times why he has so much to say about it
take a shot every time they say "probably"
False.
I was doing 5x5 and 5x6 volume work, with more abbreviated routines, as a powerlifter in the early '90s. Long before 'Starting Strength' and the like. I got it from Brooks Kubik and it was the best way for me for building strength with hypertrophy. I can't say I agree with the 'lots of sets' view. I went from nothing to a 300lb bench with 2-3 workouts a week with only 6-8 sets for a movement per WEEK. With below average genetics. 'Basics, 'breviated and best' takes you a very long way. Also it's not like people weren't doing pin-presses, floor press etc and other exercises to assist lift training. This was knocking about long before Westside or 'scientific training'.
You seem to be missing the band tension on speed day. Bands get you to 75-85% range
and if you're doing DE work without bands you use those percentages with straight bar weight
Someone please tell me what the song used in the intro is???
Westside barbell system is best!! Have training 35 years, last 25 with Westside. It's about have to change moves, stretching, and i make body moves, witch are not part of Westside. Best system, thank's Louie!!