Tutorial Tuesday Episode 11 - How To Stop Locos Stalling On Points
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- Опубликовано: 10 дек 2017
- Tutorial Tuesday Episode 11 - How To Stop Locos Stalling On Points
In this episode of Tutorial Tuesday we will show you how to fix your points so that locos dont stall when going overthem
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Great solution to a frustrating problem for those of us with many older turnouts who either don't want to, or can't afford to, change them all out to fancier newer versions. Great retrofit for existing trackage. Thanks much.
What a genius solution to a major problem. I've already ripped mine out and put electrofrogs in . . . . not realising the electrical work required afterwards. Had I seen this video before then I could have saved a lot of money and headaches. Well done, I hope someone sees this vid and saves them the hassle. Brilliant.
I did this on my Peco insulfrog points back in the day. The only difference is that I used the metal adhesive tape you can get in DIY shops. Worked really quite well, though on my big heavily used layout I had to replace it every couple of years because of wear.
Thank you! I've always had trouble with going slow over points but I only way I found was together the points with no eserfrog to handle the problem but I really didn't wanna do all that wiring
You've illustrated why I've only got ONE 0-4-0 in my Railroad...
But I must say, that's elegant and simple solution to that issue!! 👍👍
Carmine 💥⛽
Great idea. I've got some metal paint (for repairing circuit boards) I might try that.
Brilliant! In my opinion, the fun of this or any miniature hobby is in building, not buying. Any schmo can spend money. The joy comes from making something beautiful from "nothing"! CHEAPSKATES UNITE!!
Definitely agree rangerstl07. Glue, paper, cardboard and passion beat credit card modelling every time.
Thanks guys, I couldn't have said it better.
Your so right Ranger 👍🏻 it’s exactly that , the building and using bits of old plastic etc .
I am the worst cheap skate going ha ha ha. My channel gives loads of cheap ways of making things for the layout.
I’m glad it’s not only me 😂😂👍🏻🚂🚂
I used a cardboard box tin foil and an old plastic bag that I used as windows inside the box it sits on my layout as my warehouse
Fantastic! I am going to try this trick. I got a vapor locomotive and it stops in all my hornby points at low speeds. It is quite annoying. Hopefully this will work and I will not screw anything up. Thanks for the video.
Great tips. Going to try this now as I have exactly same problem on my hornby points.
Great simple idea. Will do this on my layout tomorrow. Thank you for sharing.
You are a star young man. I have been having this problem for many years with my old locos. You have solved the issue. I love this sort of cheap ways of repairing things. Im always looking for great tips like this for my videos. I Won't use yours though as it's not mine. ha ha ha. Thanks again.
All the best
Duncan.
Thanks your very little kind, imitation isvtge best form of flattery lol
Many thanks! I seem to recall that it's possible to get conductive paint. Worth a try? Perhaps even aluminium paint?
Wow, will have a go at this fix myself. Thank you.
Great idea! I wonder if that would work with solder too?
Definitely keep it in mind. The key bit is keeping enough of the frog electrically isolated then it'll work as before but hopefully better.
Excellent advice, thanks.
I’m giving this a try. Hopefully it works.
Yes, but you can then get problems with shorts, especially with long wheelbase engines or coaches with metal wheels - there's a reason why frogs are necessary!
The smaller frogs on Peco points can have the same problem.
Personally I use engines with tender pickups, including some very small 0-6-0 T's, and they never stall, even at a crawl.
Great tip, Hornby points are notorious for stalling locos at low speed, it would have been great to see a loco run over the point!
We will try and do that in a future video, the difference it makes is amazing
Could you do a tutorial Tuesday on cleaning track my track gets grubby really quickly even when I clean it!
Thanks for reading
You can also buy narrow self adhesive silver tape which might work but no need for the glue? It's used a lot in modern car connections where wiring loom plugs join pcb boards.
That's great, thanks I will try that out
When my layout was DCC I had the "stay alive" put into each engine. This gives the engine about 5 seconds to get back under track power. It works great for switches with unpowered frogs or even dirty track (as long a it is dirty in short spots). Very good... I never had any problems with the engines staling...
From a budget perspective it does mean buying that for each loco , at what cost per loco, given that most of mine cost me about £25
@@BudgetModelRailways I don't know what it would cost over there but it must have been cost effective as I am pretty broke and spend as little as I can. Living on a fixed income sucks!! Chadwick Railroad has a video where he has shed some light on the "keep alive". He is on your side of the pond and most likely can help you. I do know it isn't very expensive for what it will do for the operation of your road. Cheers mate...
@@davidcurtis5398 - stay-alive isn't an option with original analogue (DC) locomotives, sadly.
I'm working on a way to wire the switch where the only part is the small area of the frog itself. Keep you posted...@@PeterJewell2
Fixed income??? I rely on SS here in the states. Talk about "fixed" income!!!
This is a poor mans electrofrogs. I love it. I don't buy anything brand new so this will be great!
that is a great tip, might have to try that
Love it! always had this problem if i run my locos. Thx mate!
Thanks. You do need to keep the piece of foil small, but it works just fine where I had the problem.
Thnxx so much I'm going to try it sounds like a good idea
Might have been good to see a loco actually running slowly over the modified point. Good hack though, thanks for sharing.
Thanks I’ll have a go at this to see if works
My crossings are all hand-built with live frogs and I still get this problem at slow speeds. My only answer is to contiously check the pickups on my (again, scratch-built) locos. I try wherever possible to put in tender pickups, though too much spring and the wheels don't revolve. Quite often the pickups on the tank engines and very occasionally, rigid, unsprung drivers, just need renewing.
Brilliant! (Why didn't I think of this??!) Thankyou!
Good tip, I'm no soldering Wiz, but could u not run some flux over the plastic and then flow solder over it?
I suspect it might melt the plastic, also it has to be quite small to avoid making both roads live and that ,ignite be tricky to control, but thanks for the thought
Thanks! Very informative! May I kindly ask if this holds true only for 0-4-0 locos? Are you suggesting that something like a 4-6-2 loco will not face this issue? Newbie here and hence the question. Thanks in advance for replying.
Good question. Any loco can suffer from it depending on where and how many pick ups it has, but it tends to be O-4-0 or short wheelbase. Even some older large diesel locos can suffer if only one bogie set of wheels has pick ups. After I made this video I discovered that PECO points have much smaller plastic frogs so I simply switched to using them as they are the same price as Hornby
Great little vid should help out with my older points!
It seems to work on mine.
Brilliant i will give it a go
Great idea
I might have to try this. I have all the same Hornby points (smallest ones) and one of my trains stops when running slowly on just one point. Doesn’t do it on the others. Has anyone run into this issue?
It’s just strange that it will work fine on every other point bar one.
You can also do it with electrically conductive markers.
OMG ! fantastic was trying all sorts !.. oo gauge 6` board so need slow
Good one guys ! 👌.....fred
I take demel and grinding disk to make the frogs a little deeper. Have a thomas that when it comes to that part it derails. The frogs lifts the train up off the track losing power and or derailing.
Exact same problem with my sons Thomas and more so on with annie and clarabel and a milk wagon. Annie and clarabel are very light so come off when milk wagon comes off as this has the narrow coupling on it which i need swap out for wider ones. I also thought of getting a dremel for this also.
What a good idea John. I might just try that. I’ve seen my old wagons tip to one side on those frogs👍🏻🚂🚂
All the best
Duncan.
I picked up my Dremel for a $1 at yard sale. Find all kinds of stuff to use on RR. But batteries wouldn't hold charge. I also have RC addiction along with trains. But anyway, I pulled batteries out. Found out that there were only 4 600mah AA batteries. I had just purchased a cpl sets of Energizer rechargeable batteries. They run 2300mah put them in late 2017 -2018. Working today 2022. For both of my addictions. Best $12 I ever spent for batt , tool , and charger.
@@johnramirez5996 nice one 👍🏻👍🏻
hi there i have just watched the video on putting tin foil on the frog of a set of hornby points which i did find very interesting but did notice that you did not do the whole of the frog is there a reason for this
Yes it would short trains running the other way as the right hand rail would connect with the left. You might be able to experiment with making it a bit longer though
good idea useing tinfoil will try that idea this arvo my train layout. thanks bruce
Very interesting 👌
Thanks I've just started and I'm having problems train keeps jumping off at the points i will definitely try this
This probably wont solve trains derailing at points, thats a different problem. If you are running older triang locos then often the wheel flanges are too deep and they derail at points. Some older points also have shallow grooves in the plastic frogs which can cause de ailments?
Two other things to think about if you are new to this are to keep the speed down and ensure you have switched the points? Multi wheeled steam locos with small wheels front and/or rear can also be problematic on points, esp at speed. 4 or 6 wheel locos and most larger diesel locos are usually the most reliable
Hi..I wonder if this will work on Triang super 4 points...I expect it will...Also have you ever had any issues with the foil tearing after a while with locos rolling over it ? Many thanks...Brilliant idea btw
Yes in use it eventually wears away, but you just have to replace it so no problem
Thanks When i finally rebuild my triang railway this is going to be very useful
Could you give the lunk for the soldering video?
I've yet to discover how to search in your video lists
ruclips.net/video/o15UdEeZLaY/видео.html
Ive a hornby point and two peko points the peco points work fine bith ways tge turnout is fine on the hornby but through route lises power i will try this now ive watched the video many thanks
how'd it work out for you?
@FATTY_BATTY.
It didn't work for me o rang Hornby who said because I brought it as a set the frog is wired to work as part of a complete circuit I'm building a shunting layout so replaces it with a peko point I run four lines off two wires which works for me
@@Burtonupontrentrailwaystoday thanks for responding Its a shame it didn't work out
@FATTY_BATTY.
Your welcome
I've been looking for good roofing felt that looks like ballast for ages, would you be kind enough to point me to some good websites to purchase it from? Much thanks :)
Hi, sorry mine all came from skips etc. If you can get black you can dry brush it with grey paint which gives a good ballast effect
Thank you, needed that :)
Your welcome. Happy new year
Not tired it i will definitely have to try this one!
In the end using Peco points solves it as they have smaller plastic frogs, but it's a good fix for Hornby points
@BudgetModelRailways I do have peco points on my layout but the odd single one is hornby and it'll just be ab absolute nightmare to tear it up so this might help the situation
@@-FreeMiner- it's worth a try
Genius, man. :)
That's very kind
Damn, brilliant!
Thanks
Hmmm. Does this work with the loco exiting the track using the other road? Is there a danger of shorting out?
I tried it and yes, it does short circuit the other track. -_-
Hi. We use DC , I'm guessing it will short DCC. However , if you keep,the piece small and away from the other road there is no reason why it should short?
Hi, it does not short mine, although we are using DC not DCC
Quite possibly.
unless you cut the section of foil closest to the point blades off to clear the wheels.
I believe some paint is conductive ?
Are Hornby HO/OO tracks compatible with PECO HO/OO tracks?
Hornby and Peco are compatible assuming they are the same code/height?
merry xmas england enjoy xmas day with freinds and family we will have a drink for you all on this side of the world .cheers bruce and family
Thanks Bruce, and a very Happy Christmas to you and yours from us back in Blighty. All the best for 2018
I have tried your trick but it only works in one direction. Once I switch the engine stops as always. If you look closely you can create a short at the frog. Do you have this running both ways?
You just need to use two short pieces?
Although you haven’t covered the whole plastic frog with aluminium, or is the intension to to cover just one side?
If you cover it all it will interfere with the current of the loco coming the other way
Will try that , nice and cheap
have you tried this on hornby curved points?
No but it should work?
This started being a problem since I went to DCC, brand new track and class 66, stops as soon as it hits points.
They make copper and aluminium tape which would have been perfect for this as well. Copper stays really clean and the tape is really cheap. Not a huge fan of the aluminium tape because you can't solder to it.
Awsome! Do you know; you guys got the solution to the problem which started "ever since the hobby started"!
Why go DCC or buy electro-points. When these existing insul-frog points can be easily electrified! Lol! Cheers!
Thanks. It seems to work ok on DC points with plastic frogs if the loco dies in one direction
Hi , My bachman ho train goes around the bend and then stops , If i bump the table it starts up again.. help?
It could be dirty track or dirty wheels? Try cleaning both and see what happens
Is there any way l can make a electro frog point into a insulfrog point
Not that I know of
Will this work on normal track joins?
Possibly, although we tend to solder dodgy track joins
Is there metallic paint that allows electricty to pass ?
Have a look for a Circuit Scribe, it's a pen where the ink is around 20% silver and can be used to "draw" out circuits, might do the job. Not sure if it would wear off eventually though.
I’ll try this.
If it works you are a genius
did it work?
It worked for me, but you do have to replace the tin foil every so often
Hey i dont know if anyone could help me i'm knew to this and I recently bought a hornby starter set and bought a track expansion pack and long story short every time I open the points my model train looses all power and i have to unplug the controller and try again
The points switch the power, they act like on off switches so you can isolate sidings etc.
@Budget Model Railways thank you for telling me that makes sense so I just need to find a way to power the siding I guess
The siding will be powered when the point is switched that way, it's so you can have two locos on the layout with only one moving.
Does this still allow for isolation?
It does on mine, but the important thing is to keep the tin foil small and the right shape.
We got 2 options:
1) A gap of few millimetres would be critical (I m going to try & implement this on my model railway)
or
2)you could also use the insulated fishplates. (Still far more economical than newly buying electro-frog points altogether!)
I have this problem with one of my points on my fiddle yard and what happens is the loco goes semi over the point then stops and won't go any further like the current isn't getting through to the other section of track.
Will this solve the problem?
Its worth a try
@@BudgetModelRailways Ok will give it a go. So you think it's the frog stopping the power getting to the section of track behind the point hence why it stops just after the point like there's no power?
@@mattseymour8637 it's possibly the wheels losing power on the plastic frog. Another thing to look for is the area around the frog lifting slightly which lifts the wheel out of contact. Try pushing down in that area to see if it makes a difference. Is it all locos or just one?
@@BudgetModelRailways Hi there yes will try doing that and will try your tinfoil hack.
It happens with all locos on that section.
You could just use 'electro frog' or 'live frog' points which would eliminate the problem at source. :)
Hi, not really unless they have smaller plastic frogs. The power is at both ends, they stall on the frog.
The Loco Builder it's also a lot cheaper than buying electro frog points
I'm afraid that's not the case. Peco code 100 insulfrog and electrofrog points at Hattons are exactly the same price! That said it is of course cheaper than replacing insulfrog points.
Live frog points are made entirely of metal, therefore locomotives will not stall on the frog. I agree though that your solution is a cheap way to 'convert' dead frog points to pseudo live frog points.
@ The Loco Builder, wiring up a live frog layout can be daunting for the beginners this site is aimed at, especially if you include point motors and switches. Also dead/isolated frog points are more readily available used, because more companies included them in train sets.
The downside of dead frogs is they're intolerant of sloppy back-to-back wheel measurements and limited pick ups. The silver foil idea is a good compromise for the occasional stubborn loco on an otherwise reliable layout.
hi just been down to the hobby shop this morning and picked up a new product called rail zip 2 great for cleaning track points electrical connections also lube for locos great stuff my locos are over 20 yaers old they are from brazil the company is called fratesch lococs cheers bruce
I am right that you extend the straight part? Does this help it not stall when going in both directions? Thank you for work!
Which ever part is causing the issue, yes it helps in both directions. Thanks for watching
Hi guys, I just picked up a couple of those conductive paint pens off ebay. I haven't tried them yet. The only issue I can see is that the paint might not take to the waxy plastic. Has anyone else tried this ?
Please let me know how you get on as I've several points that might benefit, thanks
I shall do. Just trying to find a spare minute ! Really enjoying your controller housings by the way !
I use nickel silver rails with electro frogs
Controversial idea looking at the Comments, Thanks for sharing Kev
Thanks Kev. I think the problem is some people are thinking about DCC and we only run DC, also the piece of foil needs to be small and in the right place. But it's totally solved the problem on my layout so I thought it was worth sharing.
No argument with that if it works for you no problem regards Kev
Could you run a loco over it to see it work thanks
I no longer have this layout to show you but the loco just runs over like normal so not much to see?!
Would this work on N gauge Peco points?
Don't see why not, but they gave smaller plastic frogs in any case so should be ok
@@BudgetModelRailways My EFE Clayton’s stall on a particular set of points but everything else is ok. Thanks for your reply 😁😁
Sadly UK outline locos are not all wheel drive all wheel pick up like thier US counter parts and are really built assuming everyone is using DCC and live points. It might be worth trying this technique. Another option is ensure the point is fixed flat and level as in N the slightest bump can lift a pickup wheel and make it stall. It's silly really , a £28 Kato chassis will run smoothly over everything, an expensive RTR loco won't. Its why I have not continued with N.
@@BudgetModelRailways Thanks I would like OO but space is needed. I use DCC but these particular locos seem troublesome.
That's tomorrow night's job then. Thank you.
That won't work on DCC it will short out when wheel touch the foil. You basically connect the outer rail of main line to inner rail of siding with the wheel boom instant short and train stops would work fine for old school DC layout
It was only intended for DC
Hmm I’ve never had this problem with any of my insulfrog points. But then again I am American and I have an American layout with large American locomotives that have all wheel electrical pickup
Large locos esp diesels with all wheel drive and all wheel pick up will be fine , sadly most older UK locos only collect on one bogie etc so can hesitate on points. Strangely it seems to depend on each ind loco , I have outwardly identical 0-4-0 locos and Bo Bo diesels where one is ok and another not!
Budget Model Railways yeah. I have some old Lionel locos that only pick up power from one truck.
I've converted everything that isn't, to all wheel pick-up.
My ultimate solution, which I understand is NOT for everyone - especially the beginner...
Is, all of my Locos are DCC controlled, and all have a device called a Keep-Alive. It's a small Circuit of Capacitors and Diodes, that STORES the Power and DCC Signal.
It is capable of keeping a Lock running at it's set Speed, through almost 15 INCHES of DEAD Track!!!
That one thing, sold me on DCC, more than anything! My Layout hasn't had a single Stall, in over 5 Years!!
It's DEFINITELY more Expensive than DC. BUT, like you, I've been able to find bargains in DCC!! It's just not as easy.
What happens when a loco comes from the left across the points, slowly?
Same as if it comes from the right slowly
Does it work with rolling stock
Yes as far as I know, rolling stock is not an issue as there is no power pick up
@@BudgetModelRailways I have an issue with a box car doing that at 1 particular spot right at the swich
@@NYandAtlantic I guess it's worth a try?
@@BudgetModelRailways once I get home I’ll try it
Also make sure the blades are clean
Good idea. I had cleaned all the blades and points but in this instance it didn't help.
👍👍
I used copper tape no need for glue.
An alternative to foil is a dab of conductive silver paint.
I shall look out for that , thanks for the heads up
I used a really shitty way in the past, I used massive capacitors on my analogue locos
More long term solution would be just to install electro frogs
The point of the video is for those that already have these older points and want to improve them. Newer peco insulfrog would also solve the problem
Unfortunately when the point is set the other way,you have a short cicuit
No, because the tin foil stops short of the other rail. I have used this technique extensively without a single short circuit.
Didnt work for me! There is still a gap employing a bit of foil
Its very small though compared to without it, you must be running the loco very slowly
@@BudgetModelRailways Thats the idea....how to cross points realistickly. we dont do 50mph in the sidings while shunting!
I shunt really slowly with my hornby 06 and banal OK, perhaps its the loco and not the point?
This just shorts out my track and had caused more problems
If it's shorting you made it to long
While watching I thought, would a copper ink marker work for this?
It's an interesting idea
Would adhesive copper foil strip do the same job ??
Should do
I've tried it. Still doesn't work.
Works great on mine, the trick is to ensure you glue the tinfoil to the plastic not the rail
@@BudgetModelRailways done that. Still doesn't work for me.
Ultimately I gave up with them and went to second hand Peco points that have a smaller frog to start with
While I adore the simplicity of the fix, it does not address the "Why" problem. Perhaps another video to explain the cause is the point is not spirit level flat true and square, so when the front wheels are on the plastic frog... that one of the back wheels is floating in the air not in contact with the rails... and that is why it stalls.
Even on flat track it will stall as the plastic frog us much bigger than the newer Peco points for instance
Stupid question here just one side of the frog point?
You could do both but would have to be careful of shorting
@@BudgetModelRailways thankyou but what of the opposite direction on the point do I need to remove the tin foil and replace it for the other direction
@@BudgetModelRailways Thats great tried it and it works for your first video but I'm loathed to try the the other way in case it blows the controller or my Decoders by shorting.
brilliant idea Mate and many thanks for the video!
Save yourself time and just spend £14 on an electro frog pount
I have lots of these and need 8 points for my layout so that means over £100 not £14