The short term goal for C919 is China's domestic market, which is large enough for a company like COMAC to survive. After having mature and proven products, COMAC can start to take small fraction of the international market. It takes time, but think 20-30 years down the road.
Won't be a competitor in the short term. But in the long term when they have more experience with devolpment of new aircraft and a well established customer base they could become a competitor.
Within China, which is the largest market in the world, it will absolutely be successful , in EU and US, probably not, everywhere else will probably be price based. The fact they already have the largest market locked in means it will be successful
The Chinese airplane market is completely artificial and already in violation of WTO rules. Moreover, Chinese airlines are now baulking at having to buy the COMAC C919 under instructions from Beijing, because it is more expensive to operate than the western competition. Furthermore, in the event of hostilities with the West, this Communist state-owned company will not receive important upgrades to dozens of entirely western systems embedded within COMAC, from avionics to fire control and landing systems. Assuming it can no longer steal western IP, China's COMAC is finished before it flies. The worst part involves the fact that COMAC's engines are western LEAP engines. China is playing a risky game if it thinks it can steal or reverse-engineer this technology.
The same way the big three auto companies from Detroit looked down at the Japanese, now Airbus are like the Toyota, Honda, and Nissan of aviation as it seems to be Airbus laughing all the way to the bank on having the last laugh. To say Airbus is like Toyota and Boeing resulting of being like GM.
It would be great to add another serious player into the commercial aviation industry. Three players or more will allow healthy competition. I believe China will be a formidable competitor in 15 years.
Whether the western world like it or not, China domestic market alone is big enough for development of China own made commercial planes. The world market is bonus.
Many airlines with established relations with Boeing/Airbus receive significant discounts (often 50%-60%) on aircraft purchases. A 737 MAX, with a list price of $125 million, would cost more or less the same as a C919 (estimated costly roughly $50 million) with such a discount. It's unlikely they would switch over when they're already getting a good deal. That being said, airlines in developing countries that don't have an air travel infrastructure and aren't frequent customers of Boeing/Airbus may make Comac more compelling. But that's strictly talking pricing. Tie into that manufacturer reputation, which Comac is still building, lack of aircraft continuity (i.e. airlines' planes aren't from the same company), poorer range, sanctions, tariffs, etc. and suddenly that cheaper price isn't so appealing anymore.
@Hoy Sum The point being, however, that price is not the only thing at play here. If I'm a US carrier who operates strictly Boeing aircraft, there's little justification if any for me to invest in a plane that is heavily tariffed and sanctioned, has poorer range, and is totally incompatible with my current fleet, plus is built by I company I have no relations with and know little about.
Wanna bet? What if you can't get maintenance and spare parts? Imagine if you had to send an aircrafh back to China for repair. What if you have to retrain all of your pilots?
Boeing survives not only because it makes good planes, but also because USA is powerful. COMOC has the market, also has a powerful country on its back. and China has its national resolve to achieve it so it will succeed eventually I don't even doubt a bit I can't image a powerful country which has NO decent aerospace industry, which surely include big commercial jets
It would be benefit to the subscribers worldwide if Pure Aviation can provide more information about C919 engine, hydraulic system, cockpit layout, computer/GPS system etc.
Depends what its for. It could be a project just to make the chinese infrastructure one step less dependent on imports, or it is intended for export as a major function. Pretty sure, just like the bullet trains, it will be used as a diplomatic tool after Chinese airlines have been supplied - so every country that goes into bilateral / multilateral contracts, FTAs, etc. will be offered these planes at extremely good prices, which could make them dominant especially with state owned carriers as well as small regional airlines in eastern and central asia, africa and south america. Pushing into the home markets of Boeing and Airbus in Europe and North America as well as russia with its own manufacturers will take long, and might not even happen with the C919 but possibly with a later model. Its not unthinkable that in order to protect their manufacturers EU+USA might try to lock comac out completely under some pretext - my guess is safety...
No doubt that this is a possibility. Maybe that, or comac planes will be sold in small quantities. Just look at Russian manufactured planes, and how rarely you spot them at us/eu airports.
India's HAL needs to collaborate as well with one of the best commercial airliner manufacturer in the world!!! the collaboration is 100% essential to fulfill the need for India's first indigenous built commercial pax airliner, both narrow & wide body jets!!! India needs a twin engined 156 seat (in 2-classes) NBJ that's 23% - 28% cheaper to run than the A320-200 Neo, A321-200 Neo LR & (the now notoriously infamous) B737-MAX9!!! it'll have an unrefueled range of (3,600 miles) 5,350 kms!!! it's got to have short field take off & landing capabilities, especially on rough unpaved air strips & table top runways like in Mangalore!!! the NBJ will be 22% longer than the A321-200 Neo LR & B737-MAX10 & will incorporate a much wider fuselage cross section than it's rivals plus a higher cabin interior (+6.3 ft) height!!! the NBJ will be powered by a world first i-HYBRID ROLLS ROYCE e-Trent turbo fan engines!!! that'll provide higher power rating & unmatched range!!!
Great video with realistic assessment of Comac's limitations. I would add that China does not have a 100 year history of designing and manufacturing commercial airplanes like companies in the West. They lack the infrastructure including worldwide maintenance and support. I agree with you assessment. It will be successful in China because the state orders it. Let's hope the planes are airworthy. Imagine the fiasco otherwise.
It's possible, yes. But it will take time. A major problem for Comac is that engineers are not allowed to work together for fear of someone stealing the intellectual property. Due to compartmentalizing, innovation will be slow. However they have a good possibility of domestic market. Also 60% of the parts for the C919 are made in the US. Which is not a problem now but with US relations deteriorating they might have to look elsewhere for parts. The aviation business is a long tough road. If CN can keep good relations with other countries then I believe they might have a shot.
COMAC like with Russia's UAC (united Aircraft Corporation) do not have global engineering, spares, logistics support and sales networks the Boeing and Airbus have. COMAC does has a market in Asia and in countries where China has strong economic influence over, for the ARJ21, C919, and C929 which could have more of an impact for Boeing and than Airbus.
The problem is it will be a must for Chinese Airlines and a good alternative for the third world market. It is not how many they sell and deliver, but how many of the A320m / 737 sales that Boeing and Airbus will not be able to sell and deliver. But all it will take is a couple of crashes with dead people and it will be kaput. Safety is the critical factor.
To be honest, with the inferiority to big plane manufacturers but the cheaper price this is another way to get a grip on Africa and other areas with a lot of developing countries. China has been doing this for really long now, investing in developing countries and then asking for favours back. I really hope that developing countries' airlines don't take the bait.
why China is different with Russia? because china has a market which is big enough to accumulate the plane's reputation by operation record and performance. Just like their high speed railway. Sooner or later, with knowing a quality and good price, it will drag buyers and passengers as well. I think China won't be hurry them to a large quantity in short time, they may slowly, carefully and gradually expand for a good service record.
As to say with Boeing, they need to just keep up with the program and make quality products especially the 737 MAX if not to say a crash in Japan it will bite Boeing in the ass and after that a middle finger coming from Japan is given to Boeing and then Boeing meets Fokker as after a crash in Japan, Boeing begins to meet the Grim Reaper after a Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes in Japan.
That was on purpose. Bombardier is no longer in the commercial jet business. They sold their remaining A220 stake to Airbus, their Dash 8 program to Longview Aviation, and their CRJ program to Mitsubishi. They are now solely focused on private jets.
This sounds like a very biased report. Of course, the 2 incumbents, Airbus n Boeing, have big advantages at this time. Comac'll have to use its recruited talents n resources to improve the qualities of its aircrafts as the years go by. Whether it remains under state-controlled or not, there'll many ways to fund it. In reality, for such a large size country, bigger than Europe in population n size one should not be surprised if another aircraft manufacturer is launched further down the road.
Any foreign competitor out side of it’s home market will take over the world market. Just like the big three never looked at Japanese car companies not succeeding outside of Japan and guess what they did. Just like Airbus will not succeed outside of Europe and now Airbus has done the same as the Japanese has done with American car brands. Then when COMAC time comes they will eventually do the same with Boeing and it’s European competitor that kicking Boeing’s ass known as Airbus could plan to eat these two airplane giant’s lunch.
They will only compete with Airbus mostly in China market in near term, achieving half market share at least on narrow body passenger jets. Boeing is not qualified to be a competitor in the game. For the reason you can look at Huawei.
COMAC IS FROM CHINA AND FOR CHINA AND OTHER COUNTRIES BUT THE WEST. WESTERN PEOPLE ALWAYS SKEPTICAL ABOUT CHINA BUT CHINA WILL BE SOON THE GREATEST COUNTRY. I AM NOT CHINESE
Thanks I pass. I have used many "made in china" products and they just cant compete with American products. If price is priority go to chine but with my life I trust Boeing or Airbus a million times over. thanks bye corona airways.
100 years of reputation means nothing. Reputation is like glass once broken its gone. I rather fly a new one from Comac than fly another Boeing. We are all bias.
The short term goal for C919 is China's domestic market, which is large enough for a company like COMAC to survive. After having mature and proven products, COMAC can start to take small fraction of the international market. It takes time, but think 20-30 years down the road.
Right, slow and steady. Plus Comac's state-owned, so they likely aren't collapsing anytime soon!
There's also the factor of selling to heavily sanctioned regimes like Iran, Cuba, and Syria.
Won't be a competitor in the short term. But in the long term when they have more experience with devolpment of new aircraft and a well established customer base they could become a competitor.
Agreed!
Wait til those china planes start crashing....
@@julioc.7760 are you talking about 737Max???
Within China, which is the largest market in the world, it will absolutely be successful , in EU and US, probably not, everywhere else will probably be price based. The fact they already have the largest market locked in means it will be successful
Couldn't agree more!
The Chinese airplane market is completely artificial and already in violation of WTO rules. Moreover, Chinese airlines are now baulking at having to buy the COMAC C919 under instructions from Beijing, because it is more expensive to operate than the western competition. Furthermore, in the event of hostilities with the West, this Communist state-owned company will not receive important upgrades to dozens of entirely western systems embedded within COMAC, from avionics to fire control and landing systems. Assuming it can no longer steal western IP, China's COMAC is finished before it flies. The worst part involves the fact that COMAC's engines are western LEAP engines. China is playing a risky game if it thinks it can steal or reverse-engineer this technology.
@@ronaldmarcks1842 did you just make that up or do you actually have source for this? Sounds like fake news to me
@@keith6371 You'll have to do independent research for a change!
@@ronaldmarcks1842 so you made it up, good to know
COMAC will syep by step growing as the ARJ21 are already 45plus aircrafts in commetcial service.
I still remember the years when Boeing looked down on airbus.
The same way the big three auto companies from Detroit looked down at the Japanese, now Airbus are like the Toyota, Honda, and Nissan of aviation as it seems to be Airbus laughing all the way to the bank on having the last laugh.
To say Airbus is like Toyota and Boeing resulting of being like GM.
It would be great to add another serious player into the commercial aviation industry. Three players or more will allow healthy competition. I believe China will be a formidable competitor in 15 years.
Let's hope so!
Competition will be better for all.
Whether the western world like it or not, China domestic market alone is big enough for development of China own made commercial planes. The world market is bonus.
If it's 50% cheaper, then every country will buy it.
Many airlines with established relations with Boeing/Airbus receive significant discounts (often 50%-60%) on aircraft purchases. A 737 MAX, with a list price of $125 million, would cost more or less the same as a C919 (estimated costly roughly $50 million) with such a discount. It's unlikely they would switch over when they're already getting a good deal. That being said, airlines in developing countries that don't have an air travel infrastructure and aren't frequent customers of Boeing/Airbus may make Comac more compelling. But that's strictly talking pricing. Tie into that manufacturer reputation, which Comac is still building, lack of aircraft continuity (i.e. airlines' planes aren't from the same company), poorer range, sanctions, tariffs, etc. and suddenly that cheaper price isn't so appealing anymore.
@Hoy Sum The point being, however, that price is not the only thing at play here. If I'm a US carrier who operates strictly Boeing aircraft, there's little justification if any for me to invest in a plane that is heavily tariffed and sanctioned, has poorer range, and is totally incompatible with my current fleet, plus is built by I company I have no relations with and know little about.
Wanna bet? What if you can't get maintenance and spare parts? Imagine if you had to send an aircrafh back to China for repair. What if you have to retrain all of your pilots?
@Hoy Sum The point is it's not just about the sale price.
COMAC just needs to concentrate in internal market, overseas market just a bonus...
Boeing survives not only because it makes good planes, but also because USA is powerful.
COMOC has the market, also has a powerful country on its back. and China has its national resolve to achieve it
so it will succeed eventually
I don't even doubt a bit
I can't image a powerful country which has NO decent aerospace industry, which surely include big commercial jets
For now Airbus is eating Boeing’s lunch.
It would be benefit to the subscribers worldwide if Pure Aviation can provide more information about C919 engine, hydraulic system, cockpit layout, computer/GPS system etc.
Depends what its for. It could be a project just to make the chinese infrastructure one step less dependent on imports, or it is intended for export as a major function.
Pretty sure, just like the bullet trains, it will be used as a diplomatic tool after Chinese airlines have been supplied - so every country that goes into bilateral / multilateral contracts, FTAs, etc. will be offered these planes at extremely good prices, which could make them dominant especially with state owned carriers as well as small regional airlines in eastern and central asia, africa and south america. Pushing into the home markets of Boeing and Airbus in Europe and North America as well as russia with its own manufacturers will take long, and might not even happen with the C919 but possibly with a later model.
Its not unthinkable that in order to protect their manufacturers EU+USA might try to lock comac out completely under some pretext - my guess is safety...
China can play the same game by limiting their access to the biggest market!
No doubt that this is a possibility. Maybe that, or comac planes will be sold in small quantities. Just look at Russian manufactured planes, and how rarely you spot them at us/eu airports.
India's HAL needs to collaborate as well with one of the best commercial airliner manufacturer in the world!!! the collaboration is 100% essential to fulfill the need for India's first indigenous built commercial pax airliner, both narrow & wide body jets!!! India needs a twin engined 156 seat (in 2-classes) NBJ that's 23% - 28% cheaper to run than the A320-200 Neo, A321-200 Neo LR & (the now notoriously infamous) B737-MAX9!!! it'll have an unrefueled range of (3,600 miles) 5,350 kms!!! it's got to have short field take off & landing capabilities, especially on rough unpaved air strips & table top runways like in Mangalore!!! the NBJ will be 22% longer than the A321-200 Neo LR & B737-MAX10 & will incorporate a much wider fuselage cross section than it's rivals plus a higher cabin interior (+6.3 ft) height!!! the NBJ will be powered by a world first i-HYBRID ROLLS ROYCE e-Trent turbo fan engines!!! that'll provide higher power rating & unmatched range!!!
Great video with realistic assessment of Comac's limitations. I would add that China does not have a 100 year history of designing and manufacturing commercial airplanes like companies in the West. They lack the infrastructure including worldwide maintenance and support. I agree with you assessment. It will be successful in China because the state orders it. Let's hope the planes are airworthy. Imagine the fiasco otherwise.
It's possible, yes. But it will take time. A major problem for Comac is that engineers are not allowed to work together for fear of someone stealing the intellectual property. Due to compartmentalizing, innovation will be slow. However they have a good possibility of domestic market. Also 60% of the parts for the C919 are made in the US. Which is not a problem now but with US relations deteriorating they might have to look elsewhere for parts. The aviation business is a long tough road. If CN can keep good relations with other countries then I believe they might have a shot.
Probably not. They're probably going to be heavily tariffed, and I don't think that many airlines would go from Boeing and Airbus to Comac.
You're probably right!
Probably not many established airlines, but many new airlines from developing countries will.
COMAC like with Russia's UAC (united Aircraft Corporation) do not have global engineering, spares, logistics support and sales networks the Boeing and Airbus have. COMAC does has a market in Asia and in countries where China has strong economic influence over, for the ARJ21, C919, and C929 which could have more of an impact for Boeing and than Airbus.
People squeeze into a cheap jet now to save money and if the Chinese plane is cheaper then once it is proven some passengers will use it.
The problem is it will be a must for Chinese Airlines and a good alternative for the third world market. It is not how many they sell and deliver, but how many of the A320m / 737 sales that Boeing and Airbus will not be able to sell and deliver. But all it will take is a couple of crashes with dead people and it will be kaput. Safety is the critical factor.
In the US I don’t see COMAC succeeding (because of tariffs). And I’m not sure about Europe.
Airbus has a facility in Mobile, Alabama just like Mercedes Benz built cars in Alabama now.
In the past, China making passengers planes is just business option but now after experiencing trump, it is an absolute necessity.
To be honest, with the inferiority to big plane manufacturers but the cheaper price this is another way to get a grip on Africa and other areas with a lot of developing countries. China has been doing this for really long now, investing in developing countries and then asking for favours back. I really hope that developing countries' airlines don't take the bait.
It’s just a question of time that C919 has an inefficient range.
why China is different with Russia? because china has a market which is big enough to accumulate the plane's reputation by operation record and performance. Just like their high speed railway. Sooner or later, with knowing a quality and good price, it will drag buyers and passengers as well. I think China won't be hurry them to a large quantity in short time, they may slowly, carefully and gradually expand for a good service record.
Comac 919 in nutshell :
Ctrl+C
Ctrl+V
Now all that’s left is Ctrl+P :)
Try it yourself. You made it sound so easy.
Stupidest comment from someone who knows nothing about aeronautical engineering.
As to say with Boeing, they need to just keep up with the program and make quality products especially the 737 MAX if not to say a crash in Japan it will bite Boeing in the ass and after that a middle finger coming from Japan is given to Boeing and then Boeing meets Fokker as after a crash in Japan, Boeing begins to meet the Grim Reaper after a Boeing 737 MAX 8 crashes in Japan.
Hey Pure Aviation, you forgot to mention Bombardier in the beginning of the video
That was on purpose. Bombardier is no longer in the commercial jet business. They sold their remaining A220 stake to Airbus, their Dash 8 program to Longview Aviation, and their CRJ program to Mitsubishi. They are now solely focused on private jets.
This sounds like a very biased report. Of course, the 2 incumbents, Airbus n Boeing, have big advantages at this time. Comac'll
have to use its recruited talents n resources to improve the qualities of its aircrafts as the years go by. Whether it remains under
state-controlled or not, there'll many ways to fund it. In reality, for such a large size country, bigger than Europe in population n size
one should not be surprised if another aircraft manufacturer is launched further down the road.
China doesn't need to take the international market it just needs to take the Chinese market.
Any foreign competitor out side of it’s home market will take over the world market. Just like the big three never looked at Japanese car companies not succeeding outside of Japan and guess what they did.
Just like Airbus will not succeed outside of Europe and now Airbus has done the same as the Japanese has done with American car brands.
Then when COMAC time comes they will eventually do the same with Boeing and it’s European competitor that kicking Boeing’s ass known as Airbus could plan to eat these two airplane giant’s lunch.
737 crisis 787 crisis 777 crisis
They will only compete with Airbus mostly in China market in near term, achieving half market share at least on narrow body passenger jets. Boeing is not qualified to be a competitor in the game. For the reason you can look at Huawei.
When Boeing & FAA are in bed together oversight on quality is suspect at best.
@ 2:00 That is what I was waiting for. From where China stole the technology. LoL, Hopefully is not from Boeing.
Number one in 10 years time.
Hey Mr Al baker go buy these then ask them to stretch it the same size as a A350 then you can moan to the Chinese about the paint
Good china
With Boeing Max out of picture due to bad plane design, there are currently only one viable plane on this segment which is airbus.
I think comac will win aviation race with airbus and boeing not immediately but definitely
Pretty worthless piece of analysis. It’s like an arts student trying to write a scientific journal.
Can’t please everyone!
COMAC IS FROM CHINA AND FOR CHINA AND OTHER COUNTRIES BUT THE WEST. WESTERN PEOPLE ALWAYS SKEPTICAL ABOUT CHINA BUT CHINA WILL BE SOON THE GREATEST COUNTRY. I AM NOT CHINESE
Thanks I pass. I have used many "made in china" products and they just cant compete with American products. If price is priority go to chine but with my life I trust Boeing or Airbus a million times over. thanks bye corona airways.
100 years of reputation means nothing. Reputation is like glass once broken its gone. I rather fly a new one from Comac than fly another Boeing.
We are all bias.