It's not just goths who changed from then to now, it's people and society in general. In the 90s, life was about going out and doing things, seeing things, having new and beautiful experiences. Now, people want to stay inside and utilize technology. That's something I greatly miss about that time period.
Also, there is a great obsession with image now. I have noticed some famous internet goths won't give you the time of day unless they think you are as attractive as they are or have as much fame as they do, no matter how nice you are to them. There was a time not too long ago in which children were taught to not judge a book by its cover, but now we have people in the goth subculture judging other goths by their outward appearance. How "goth" you look or how hot you are. That person they find ugly or looking like a mall goth just might be the most goth person ever and someone very kind and fun to be around. This is more of a reflection on modern day society than goths specifically. In the 80s and 90s, I think goths suffered more persecution than they usually do now so we tended to be less judgmental toward other goths because we knew how it felt to be judged harshly based on appearances (unless you were in junior high or high school. A lot of kids liked to throw around "poser" for silly reasons). These days, people compliment goths more often than they insult them in a lot of areas, so there is a disconnect somewhere in the way of empathy.
I agree. You see a very common sense of nostalgia for the 70's, 80's, and 90's among all kinds of people from punks to metalheads to goth and so on. For me, I even miss the 2000's, even though I was just a kid. We used to throw parking lot shows where we would have a couple bands play and there would be at least 30 people who would come down to see the show. Nowadays, there isn't as much of that commitment or sense of comradry and brotherhood. I seen it happening in some places but not as often as it used to.
see thats exactly why there's SUCh a need to revitalize society, culture and arts!!! We need to externalize our desires more and remind people of the good feelings, oxytocin and dopamine release when you go out and party especially in a particular scene where everyone has a place to fit in. Once the younger generation get a taste for that, they wont let go. We can do it!!
That is something I always say to everybody, but no one seems to understand. Real life was outside, it was very unlike to stay at home saturday night. We used to plan weeks later what we were going to do on weekend. Today, if you go to a club, bar or Pub, bands are playing to no one because everybody is at home watching netflix, covid made it even worse. Also people are more worried about taking photos of themselves and posting on instagram than enjoying the moment and friends. It is so ridiculous. I feel so sad, and I miss the 90s and early 2000s a lot.
I love the surprised look I get from people when I tell them I used to take ballet for six years and that I cosplay. Most people assume goths only do “goth” things. Why be a square when you can be a cube?
It’s the internet. And I’m not anti-internet. But when I went to goth/industrial clubs (1993-2000ish), things were underground. You went for the atmosphere, the experience, to hear the music, to make connections with like-minded people...it wasn’t “exclusive” necessarily but was an underground community. Now everything is at your fingertips. Social media has supplanted face-to-face communities, you can find any rare record, remix, etc., in like 2 seconds instead of digging endlessly through records and cassettes in stores. Some of what the internet has brought is really amazing. But some things have died or changed as a result. It just is what it is.
@@bf13137 Absolutely. It's not an edgy, super underground club that only goths know about if any wannabe goth with an internet connection can find it in 3 seconds. Back then you got invited by those already acquainted. Its like the magic trick that you found out about. It loses its magic and it's Wonder once you know how the trick is done. The internet has done this with all kinds of things. I remember any early 2000s people would tell me about clubs and I would be super interested because it seems like some kind of underground exclusive thing that you had to be invited to. I think what the internet all of that mysticism has been debunked and revealed to the public so now we know that it never was any magic that this is what it was always about it's always about money and marketing and blah blah blah. I think the internet just illuminated that fact and took away the magic like a done with so many other things
i’m 15 so i can’t comment on the club scene but i still feel the fear of being deemed unauthentic/poser. and i’m really caught up in it it’s a shame. if i ever listen to something not goth and enjoy it i actually feel kind of guilty and fake. this toxic mentality needs to end ugh.
Nobody should feel guilty for liking something other than goth. I'm pretty sure where the stigma comes from to begin with is when people call things that aren't goth, "goth". Like saying you're goth because you listen to Marilyn Manson, as an example. Well, that's not goth. You're not goth. If you are into *actual* goth music and the goth scene/community to whatever extent, then whatever else you listen to or do doesn't matter.
Gurl, Britney Spears. Be you and who cares if that makes you "goth." It's more important to be you then to fit into any stereotype. Be you honey. If that means listening to Britney Spears, wearing all black, and loving to surround yourself with spooky things then do it. I promise you'll be happier for it. ❤☠❤
I really miss the club culture of the 80's. The scene in Houston was really inclusive since hard core punk, dance techno, goth and rockabilly all shared the same music venues. The goth crowd would should up to punk shows, punks would go to Goth night; and everyone got along for the most part. All of that really started to change in the late 90's though. Kinda sad. :(
Its still like that. I just went to a local punk show at a rockabilly club lol. Another time I went to a punk show at this underground spot with no address and I was amazed at how inclusive they were when the hispanics had their lil Cumbia parties in between the sets. Although I can say, the spark sure doesn't feel all there at all, yet at the underground lot, it felt like the closest you could get to an experience that is of the scene back then
Dear Angela, AMEN. Goth is goth. I live for the day that sense of wonder can be captured once again. I’ve only ever had “goth night” at a local bar called Mars Bar in Richmond, Virginia. An actual dedicated goth club was not around but damn it I hit goth night ever Wednesday at Mars Bar because it’s what I, and the other goths had. I never wanted those nights to end. You could wear any of the goth styles and it didn’t matter because we all knew why we were there. The sense of dissection hadn’t hit the subculture yet. I want to see that happen again. Thank you for this.
Remember revelations at twisters, or 1408 before that? I know I'm showing my age there, but those were my hay days... I got out of the scene about the time mars bar got going, but still listen to everything from back then. Kinda funny to see a local post... cheers.
I miss Mars Bar! 80s music and friends, we had such a great time back in the day. I went to Sacrosanct after it had moved to Fallout next door, which is thankfully still there. =)
I nearly fell out of bed at 10:28 “Gee i hope they didn’t misunderstand me and think i am a member of a Germanic tribe that LISTENS TO BUILDINGS” BAHAHAHAHA i’ve had my couple minutes to get the laughs out but they just keep on coming, i don’t quite know why that sentence was so funny to me😂💗
I'm the same way! Sometimes just the way a sentence is put together has the ability to set me off and I'm laughing on and off everytime I think about it!
Even I can see a dramatic shift from just a decade ago. There are more people who would rather sit outside the venue to drink and smoke just to say they went than those who go inside and actually want to have a genuine experience.
As an asthmatic and a cancer patient, I am so glad people can't smoke inside. I would never be able to go. I know what you mean though, Kiri. I never understood people who would just sit outside and smoke, or sit at the bar all night while amazing music was playing.
Exactly! This was never a comment on the smoking ban, I'm all for it. People can always run outside to have a smoke then go back inside to have fun, it's a comment on the people who only ever sit outside drinking and smoking and never actually take part in the event they most likely paid a cover charge to attend.
Why dictate how people should enjoy their night out? If they payed the cover and are buying drinks they are supporting the event. They may enjoy the atmosphere and music but not feel like dancing and that is ok. They might be there primarily to socialise too. Full dance floors are great but as long as people are enjoying themselves and keep coming back who cares? Some events are more laid back.
I'm one of those guys who sit outside to drink, and smoke. (not the whole time, but 2/3 or so). I do it because it's hard to converse over the music, and I go to socialize. (in some circles, there may be a pretentious "we're better than our club" nonsense but that's not why I do it)
aytakk Great point! I was responding to the dialogue in the video about that lost "magic" of the event. Part of it could simply be getting older but I was commenting on the fact that I generally see more people outside the venue these days than in it & that may be why. Of course people are free to do what they want at an event so long as they're not hurting anyone.
This all needed to be said. It irks me to no end when I start a discussion online about how goth music and gothic aesthetic and literature can sometimes go hand in hand, then people come out of the woodworks to tell me how wrong I am for drawing such a comparison or making such an example. “Anything that existed before 1979 isn’t goth, it’s gothic,” they say. They somehow thinks that invalidates the examples of inspiration that goth musicians take from gothic literature. Goth music doesn’t exist in a vacuum like these people seem to think it does. These people seem to believe that “Spleen and The Ideal” and “De Profundis” of the amazing work of Dead Can Dance were just randomly pulled out of someone’s ass by a goth musician. Charles Baudelaire wrote that volume in “Les Fleurs du Mail”, named “Spleen et le Idéal” and the poem “De Profundis Clamavi” (Latin for “From the Depths I Cry”). Why is it so wrong for “goth” and “gothic” to be interchangeable? Shouldn’t it help unite us instead of divide us? The difference is two letters: “I” and “C”. Yet now, it’s causing fights and put-downs. I see a huge problem here. It’s a collective experience and aesthetic of the amazing spectrum of goth music, literature, mindset, and being united under an incredible love for things dark, beautiful, sensual, and mysterious. Why can’t we just take that shit and get along? And I fucking hate the fashion police. They can take a bottle of hairspray and shove it up their ass if they say I look like a poseur for sporting my naturally curling, untested hair. I’m just doing what Poe described as “Setting full force of the Homeric epithet of ‘Hyacinthine.’” Amazing video, as always, babe. I love how hard you are trying to unify this fragmented subculture.
If you want to know the reason why the two somewhat split, it's pretty simple. Darkly Inclined/Dark Romanticism being conflated as the same thing as Goth. I'm pretty sure you've run into those people who think Goth is not about the music and think that you don't have to listen or like any Goth music to be a Goth. As long as you wear black, pile on the eye shadow and lipstick, and listen to Metal or classical music, you're a Goth and if anyone says otherwise, they're an elitist. This kind of thinking is what really annoyed Goths and just made them want to distance themselves from these people who were falsifying their scene for the sake of attention and popularity (The "Mall Goth" trend of 2003-2006 is a good example of this). That's pretty much the main factor that contributed the divide because the thing is. While Angela's experience definitely reflects the good and chill time of the 80s and 90s club scene, it also helped that the people were on the same page. They knew that if someone liked things like Gothic literature, imagery, etc, they would also be a fan of Goth music and vice versa. There was no need to for a distinction to be made in those times until the Darkly-Inclined and "Fashion Goths" tried to come in and change the meaning of the scene in the 00s.
"Darkly-Inclined" is just a term used to describe people who are purely just into the dark and macabre but tend to not have interest in the Goth subculture as in they don't listen to the music associated with the scene.
Do you think those people just haven't heard any of the music or just haven't found a goth band/artist that they like?...I don't see why somebody wouldn't like any of the music at all if they were so into the dark and macabre..
Goth clubs in the 90's = A safe haven for dark minded outcasts who like Goth Rock, Darkwave, and Industrial music. Goth clubs in the 2000's and onward = Just another place where you feel judged.
I'm starting to think this skin care thing is a cover up and you're really a vampire or something. I was 2 years old in 98 and you don't look that much older than me.
I have been wishing for a very long time that I could step back into the 90's for a bit(and not turn back into a toddler) because I have always wanted to experience something like this. By the time I was old enough to go to clubs it was way past the 2000's.
I think the Batcave was on 30th street and if I remember correctly that's where your hardcore goths went to. I wore black but never rocked the makeup (I thought I would have looked stupid), I felt I would have caught shit if I went there. I admit it was around '97 I stopped going because there were too many pretentious people (especially dudes) walking around. Still I miss those days I had so much fun hanging out and meeting up with 'club friends' as Angela put it.
Kind of wish I could go back in time and experience what it was like being goth in the 90's. I wish the toxic idea that you're being a poser if you like anything that is unrelated to the goth subculture makes you a poser did not exist... I always have this thought in the back of my head that I'm being a poser if I don't listen to goth music everyday or dress goth. Kind of frustrating, but hopefully one day I will no longer have that thought. Also, I love the way you explain things in your videos and are so inclusive!
I feel kind of robbed that I missed out on this sort of atmosphere. My city never had much of a goth scene, but there used to be a club I would go to called The Wreckd Room, which played a lot of industrial and occasionally strayed into darkwave territory. It was a tiny, mostly undecorated (besides a few band posters with blacklights on them) basement with a capacity of maybe 60 people, which I don't think I ever saw it reach more than once. It closed down a few years ago because the owner was losing money keeping it open or someshit. The scene there was often very elitist and unwelcoming and people didn't generally do a lot of talking to each other, but I loved to go there and stomp around and dance like an idiot underneath the shitty lasers and strobelights anyways. Another place used to be around called Dissent, which had to close its' doors and reopened at a different location under a different name, sticking around for a couple of years before closing due to some drug business happening there. Another place opened briefly called Moon Over Marin which was a good place for metal and industrial and so-called "gothic metal", nifty place with mirrored walls that used to be the entry hall to an old theatre that was mostly demolished, but they also ended up closing due to a variety of insurance issues. Pretty much the only place that stayed open more than 5 years was the Wreckd room, and it was never really a goth club, more of an "alternative" club.
For several years, I identified as goth but it wasn't until about a year ago when I realized I had no clue what goth was. Growing up in a small town with no goth scene, I had never heard Bauhaus or The Cure or anything else about the subculture. It wasn't until I came across your channel (and your music playlists) that really opened the doors for me. Before that, I knew about the fashion, about Poe and the internal desire to buy halloween decorations to put on display all year round, but I didn't even know goth was a genre of music (though unbeknownst to me, some artists that I was into were actually goth like The Birthday Massacre, Johnny Hollow and Voltaire). At first I didn't have any interest in the music but then I actually listened to it and, well, I love it! The whole subculture has this beautiful allure to it that's so indescribable and it just makes me want to listen, to learn and to know more. I've been hooked onto other goth channels, as well as, listening to The Belfry's podcasts. Even though I don't have a local scene, it just makes me want to try harder to find some way into the subculture and to help keep it alive. I don't want to ramble anymore, so I will end with a thank you. Thank you Angela for helping me get a good start on my dark and gothic journey and I hope you keep doing what you're doing because a lot of us baby bats appreciate it. :)
You can never re-capture the magic of being new. But we can run events now and pass that magic on to the new people today. Hopefully they will do the same thing for others too.
Something we need to be careful of. Too much nostalgia can kill things. If new people think everything sucks now because the 80s/90s is so overhyped online, they may not even give the current events IRL a proper go. As great as it all was back then we can't have it back. We live in a different world and need to adjust with it. But that doesn't mean we can't have awesome stuff now.
I can understand that. The whole point really is to show that if it existed once before there's no reason why it can't be that way again. I don't think that things suck, but comparatively there's a huge difference and that's down to us and the younger generation. They don't realize how many of the cards they actually hold and just by showing up they can make a world of difference.
I was around in the 80s, those days where we were ‘alternative ‘.... I still head out to goth clubs, and for me in Melbourne, Australia in 2018, I am feeling quite a lot of magic is returning...
I've gone to the Castle many times!, first time on Halloween a few years ago. I went with two friends intending to go there but they didn't want to wait in line or go in the end. I was so sad and was about to turn away but a couple dressed in matching clockwork orange outfits called to me saying you can hang with us for the night. I was taken a back, and I'm usually shy around strangers but I took a chance and said yes. It turned out to be a fun magical night, filled to the brim with people. Although there definitely was a mix of types of people, but everyone was all having fun together and enjoying the vibe. So glad that was my first experience and can't thank that nice couple enough.
You should go. I am a veteran of the 90's NYC scene who lived in the Tampa area for a little while, and it does have that same "leaving the world behind" feel that the Bank, Mother, and Limelight had. I think the reason the NYC scene lost that feel was Giuliani's crack down on the clubs. There really aren't any huge weekly goth-industrial nights anymore like there used to be. It now tends to be monthly events that have to keep changing location, or be in really small venues where they don't get to really leave a distinct footprint. The Castle has been there 25 years and has always been an alternative club, so you don't have that feeling that they just threw up some red and black sheets on the wall to make it feel goth, because tomorrow it has to be a hipster bar.
Thank you for sharing the video of "The Castle"! My first goth club experience was in the summer of 1997 at the Castle. My friends and I had just graduated high school and we drove almost an hour away just to experience the night. Thereafter, almost every Friday and Saturday nights for many years, no matter where I lived Orlando,Saint Augustine, Daytona Beach, Miami, I still drove all the way to Ybor to dance the night away because it was so addicting. Sadly it's been awhile since I have gone to any clubs, life gets in the way, but it would be amazing to recreate the magic and energy that we had in the 90s. Thank you for creating your channel about the goth culture and sharing your experience.
You gave a shout out to Black Tape for a Blue Girl! I love them still. How I miss Vampiricus and Club Noire. DJ Xian was great. She'd play the goth standards, but then throw in some Japanese goth rock or even disco and no one lost it. We'd just dance. And thanks for making the point that goths come in all shapes, sizes and colors. I never cared, but I feel for baby bats of color who think there's no place for them.
The Castle is my home club and I am exceptionally thankful to have it close enough by that I can still get to it when I get the urge to get my dance on. Been going since 1995 when I turned 18. It's also the longest running single genre club in the area at 26 years strong. Last time I went I did feel the magic slowly dissipating but I will always be fortunate to have that readily available to me as I grew up.
I certainly think the clubs are missing that feeling of "wow, this is home, these are my people" along with that element of "danger" like anything could happen, I only get that nowadays from a local dive bar called Monstercade that plays alot of different dark music.
Hell you have a point .I was there in the 90s and went back to a club i used to go to after about a 15 year gap . Was it me or the club ? I came to the conclusion the atmosphere had gone . People are now educated by the internet .Goth has become a fashion statement as in you should buy all this . We had no money , we just wanted to have fun meet friend dance and drink a lot . Now Its all logged filmed and allied on the phone . We were reckless and sometimes stupid ,but had fun
Thanks so much for this! I'm a Bank alumni ('97 / '98) as well as Pyramid, Coney Island High, Opera etc around the same time. There was truly something magical at that time - a sense of camaraderie for sure!
I love your discription of the feel when enter the club. My mom took me to funhouse, I well under age. I went to batcave daily when also well underage lol. So I got to experience the late 90's early 2000 of the scene. I felt the same way walking in event and seeing the people and sound and the red tinted lights. I can go on for ever. Including the way the night felt as it was ending. The night was so embracing groups would break off and travel the still dead city together clinging on to feelings we had the entire night before sun rise. What I feel the Goth community fell short through out the years is the embracement of positive change. And you mention the very same thing in the same. Like a simple song of Neuroticfish- coming to take me away. It was fun. People laughed and skipped and it just brought people together. Instead of picking apart the differnce of a Victorian Goth and steam punk. P.s GREAT SHOUT OUT!!! Ian Ford and Sean! Red Room! PEOPLE! Go out and enjoy what we have left so we can grow long term down the road! Don't be shy! If you never experienced or never listened to Gothic cultured music. You might find something you love in it....... Or someone! This is Bears. From a fellow New Yorker who traveled the tri state for goth events I personally loved the video. Thanks!
Love this video! I loved hat that guy had to say about seeing the beauty in darkness and appreciating it because you cannot have light without darkness. The yin and the yang concept, I have always believed in this. Great message
Wow i can't believe you brought up the castle! I just recently moved up to west CT but i used to love going over to the castle when I had the chance, although it isn't nearly as cool as it looks in those clips
It’s weird to hear it called slave collar. I agree with you. I’ve heard someone say I’m not a building, so you should know the difference between goth and gothic. My first response was “Huh?”
Lead by a leash huh? Dang, maybe that's what I need to do if I go to a Goth event, bring a leash and find available Goth men wearing collars with an O-Ring to clip it to snag me a Goth man lol Kidding of course haha.
Thanks again, Angela, for the great video and your insight on the Goth/Gothic subculture. You've mentioned so many good and relevant points, and I totally agree with you on all of them. I think we are the same age ;) I've been in the scene since mid 90s and I see and feel the change. I also remember that 'magic' feeling when you entered the club in 90s early 00s. I think nowadays people have become very individualistic and selfish in a way, and social media plays a big role in that 'division' issue that you are referring to. But on the other hand, you are using social media to talk about our beautiful scene, educate people and share the love for the music. Thank you for doing that!
@Angela I love this. I know I am late the party here. This all rings true! My dancing really started in LA and OC in 1988. This discussion really hit the mark for me. I danced through the 90s in LA, SF, SB, SLO. It was always stepping into an immersive atmosphere. 2005 I drove across the US West to East and then back, zig-zagging to visit as many goth clubs as I could - while looking for a school.Thank you Vamp List!
I totally agree, and I think the other thing is self awareness(for example draping yourself over a tombstone with roses in total earnest vs. finding it cheesy and ironic in the present) Basically what you said about goth being nitpicked to the point of disintegrating, there's only one way to be goth and it's set in stone now. Goth back then was fast and loose and if you knew goth, you were it, no one in the 80s and 90s were arguing what is or isn't goth because it didnt need to be said or explained!
This video was extremely refreshing for me to hear. I’m scared of even trying to embrace my “dark side” at times because sometimes? I don’t WANT to dress this way, I might feel colorful one day, or I might say “hey I feel like listening to some nostalgic boybands!” And I’m young.. I feel inauthentic. I’m suppose to be boxed and and ONE THING AT ALL TIMES, otherwise I’m a poser. Why can’t we be many things? The 90’s seemed much more accepting.
Thank you for being such a positive figment of my youth and happiest memories. I'm glad you enjoyed this. I hope it helps people get out and enjoy themselves.
It is a joy and an honor that I could be a part of your life, even through a song or a passing moment, but especially as a figment of youth and happiest memories. I mean that truly. The work you are doing now is insightful, meaningful, and, most importantly, real. Again, you have my thanks for everything you have done and are doing. I wish you all the best.
Call me a poser, call me a faux-goth, call me whatever the hell you want. So long as I am enjoying myself, and not impeding on anyone elses fun in any way aside from trivial things like how I'm dressed, why should I care what anyone else thinks of me. You are a wonderful person who has inspired many. If the rest of the loud and proud individuals in this culture were even half as open as you, this subculture would feel so much more unified.
I don't think it's disappeared completely. I go to an alt club in my area and it's the first club I've ever enjoyed going to. The people are interesting ( a big older crowd as well) and they are friendly and welcoming. The music is amazing. I dance for hours there and I also get that sense of "dread" when the night is coming to an end. Obviously I wasn't there in the 90s to compare, but today's scene feels just as magical to me, even if it's much smaller and harder to find. My love of the music comes from my mom was goth in the 90s in London.
I have to say this.. there was literally a feeling of magic in the air in the 90s! I just couldn't do anything because I was a baby. But I could FEEL IT!!!!!!!!!!!! I remember LITERALLY having a thought at age two: "Mannn I wanna go out and party.. but I'm a baby. I have to wait." That video of the club omg I can feel it. I'm just happy I was born at that time because at least I can feel it based on era. I'm very empathic. I have always said that the 90s just had this spark. It seep into mainstream too, Gloria Estefan, Sade etc. It was an exciting time. That needs to come back.
I agree and attribute this to losing our youthfulness. I remember walking into the club, leaving the world behind and dancing all night long, only stopping to rehydrate.
I was one who likes offbeat music I really did not label myself back then you could go clubbing not hardly obsess about getting hurt or killed in violence today you would not attempt to do that at least not often as a lifestyle sad this generation is one of technology not quality of life or much else
I think one thing that no one mentions is the general lack of support of newer bands from djs especially in the states. In SoCal you rarely hear She Past Away, Frozen Autumn, etc and the djs get either livid or claim the club owners "won't let them" play newer stuff. That's what killed my enthusiasm from clubs, hearing the same Siouxsie and Cure songs every night and no variety.
It's kinda bad from an economic pov as well. so many people are unaware of all the newer bands who try and keep the genre alive, but since they don't get any playtime, they fall into obscurity. Of course there's wgt, but being there 3 times, I can say it's ridiculously expensive. I think if djs/club promoters gave more variety, maybe people would be more enthusiastic, and it might bring back the curiosity of "ooh, i like this song, what is this band?" and so on
OMG! I used to go to the Castle in Tampa for Goth/Industrial Night in the '90s and I remember them putting it on the news. It was so much fun. I really miss it! BTW, you are so cute! I love bats too. Love your channel. Stay spooky, girl!!!!!! :)
Okay just fair warning... This comment may be a little long and I apologize if it ends up being so, I'll try not to drag on (lol you know how I comment by now haha). Okay a few things to note. I totally understand what you're saying about how Goth was back in the 80s and 90s and how there wasn't much fuss going on. Goth was Goth and Gothic and Goth could be used interchangeably with no problem at all. Everyone was on the same page back in that time so there was no reason to have a separation of the words. But see here's the thing. Remember how in one of your older videos you mentioned that in the 00s, you kinda took a little break from the scene and focused on other things and then when you came back to the scene, you didn't recognize just what heck happened to it and created that horrifying mismatched frog monster thing to illustrate how you felt lol? Well the answer is during the 00s, that's when the misconstruction of Goth really started to take full effect and it all started with the people who had no real interest in Goth music and just only cared about looking dark while listening to Industrial or Metal (usually Symphonic, Gothic, or Black because those genres were really starting to gain traction in the 00s), or classical music and thinking that was enough to make them Goth despite not having any likeness or fondness for Goth scene music (whether it be 1980s, 1990s, 2000s. From Post Punk, General Goth Rock, Darkwave, Ethereal Wave, etc.). These people did so much damage to the scene along with mainstream media and online journal outlets and it caused that divide you noticed when you came back to the scene, albeit the online scene. Like I mentioned in the online post, because of people equating being darkly inclined to being the same as Goth when we all know they are two different things. It got to the point where people started being vocal about the differences. Now I've said this before and I'll say it again that yes, it is true that Goths don't have to listen to just Goth music, that would be absurd and it would just burn you out if you only listened to one genre of music and I encourage people to listen to all kinds of music. But the thing is if you don't like any Goth scene specific music at all (and no, I'm not talking about Industrial here), like any type of Goth scene music from Post Punk, Goth Rock, Darkwave, Coldwave, Ethereal Wave, or Deathrock no matter from whatever decade then I'm sorry but I wouldn't call you a Goth. And I'm not saying this in a "I'm better than you" kind of way, I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to call yourself something specific when you don't have any interest in the thing the subject is centered around. This is why the emphasis on Goth vs Darkly Inclined and yes, "gothic" have become a prominent thing in recent years. And before anyone just thinks I'm some elitist prick who can't handle people listening to other kinds of music, go to my channel and look at my playlists and you'll see how wrong you are lol I'm a slave to Disco & Funk 70s music haha. Speaking for myself, it was never about people listening to things other than Goth but rather, people calling themselves Goths and then saying they don't like any Goth scene music, not even at least 5 bands. That or the people who equates genres like Metal or Industrial and considering them to be the epitome of Goth. And just to clarify with Industrial, I'm not saying it's bad or anything, I love some of the stuff (mostly early) but that scene was always affiliated with Rivetheads, it was a different subculture that just happened to get along with Goth. Anyway back on topic. I'm sure there are other things that contributed to this divide but I decided to stick with the main ones that stuck out to me the most and I hope this explanation cleared some things up at the very least. As someone who was a part of the conversation you mentioned in the video, I just felt I needed to clarify what I meant there. It wasn't meant to come off as trying to be a Dbag or anything like that, just giving some insight on how this phenomena (if you want to call it that) came to be and why you see it so much these days. Good video though. I loved the news clip you showed as I could definitely feel the aura of that club and made me wish I could just jump into the computer and explore the Goth club and meet the patrons lol
There were always people who didn't know the music was connected to goth, even in the 90s (and I'm sure even probably in the 80s), especially if you didn't live in a big city. These days, information is at our fingertips and there is no excuse for ignorance, but back then a lot of people didn't know the half of the history of goth because almost no one had the internet and if you did, it was so slow. Music was just something you discovered from compilations, the few magazines at our disposal, chatrooms, and from friends (or if you were really lucky, the radio). Really, it's not just goths who changed from then to now, it's people and society in general. In the 90s, life was about going out and doing things, seeing things, having new and beautiful experiences. Now, people want to stay inside and utilize technology. That's something I greatly miss about that time period.
Oh yes, I totally forgot to mention that these kinds of people existed back then too, my bad. But yes I do agree that in this modern day of the internet with all the information at our fingertips, there is no excuse for misinformation on Goth at this point and that's why when I run into those people who get bent out of shape when you tell them that music like Marilyn Manson or Evanescence is not Goth, I can't help but shake my head in disappointment. And you're right that these days, most people are homebodies and would rather stay home than go out and socialize. The internet has done some incredible things and I'm not going to sit here and lie saying that the Internet is a bad thing but it definitely affected socialization the more and more convenient it got. Because even when you are out in public and just sitting around (I'm kind of a people watcher), I see most people in their groups glued to their phones. I actually met up with an old friend few days ago and she made an observation saying how she was surprised I wasn't on my phone the whole time we hung out lol
Yeah. I love the internet and technological advances, but unfortunately, oftentimes, even good things have bad effects on aspects of society and this just happens to be the case here.
Thanks for putting this video up. I've felt this way going out to dance nights in the past few years, which is one of the reasons I moved to NYC 10 years ago - for the better alternative nightlife. Hoping that the magic comes back.
Glad you made this video, I’ve always thought being goth/alt was cool but I was raised super religiously so I didn’t get into the scene until I was 18 and it’s super lonely cause ppl think I’m a poser haha
This is so refreshing to hear, and rather validating. I grew up with a strict dad who basically dictated everything down to what color of clothes I could wear (my prom dress was a white satin and velvet Victorian gown from Hot Topic - my mom bought it for me while I was visiting her, he gave me crap for it) and basically assigned me the role of "princess" (minus the glam). I'm Goth at heart but obviously never stepped too far outside of the box of public conventionality because I was too sensitive to deal with the consequences (my friends would NEVER describe me as goth but they would describe me as a little "off"). The magic was always in my head and heart, but over the years it seems to have faded, as everyone else seems to have noticed. I decided to search for it and this is the first place I landed. Thank you
2:34 from what I’ve heard plus what I know of the time that goth was forming, the clubs was how people got together. It’s how you got inspiration for your style, how you found new music, how you hung out with friends, and how you made new friends. Before the internet things like this, communities, really depended on people physically coming together. Idk how people not know this but at the same time I’ve been watching videos by older goths since I was 18/19 and I’ve even read a book or two by those considered elder goths plus my mom was in the scene in her youth. So maybe I just find it easier than some to understand this. I’ve had similar experiences with things like Pride, where you get to be with people who understand you, where you get to learn new things and make new friends, and just have fun all while doing it.
It was not until last year that I went to my first goth club, and i felt just like that. I walked in and stopped. I thought, I'm with people like me! Everyone was so welcoming and with so much understanding of me being new to embracing who I am. I feel like I found a family. Maybe the magic is not quite dead!
I’m surprised I didn’t see this video earlier because I love your story based videos. Also because I go to the Castle, and have been for almost 10 years now. But it is incredibly different over the past year. A lot of people go to just make fun of goths. I wish it wasn’t so because even though I’m not emerged in the subculture anymore, I still like bringing out what remains which is the music, and I love to share this with my boyfriend as well.
I'm so glad I found your channel! The Bank was my first goth night also, back in July of 1998. I was spending the summer with my 1st love, I was 19 * a grunge girl fresh out of small-town Georgia. The closest thing I'd ever experienced to goth was watching The Craft, lol. My boyfriend's best friend & his ex took me out shopping & I purchased my first spiked collar. I wore my first see-through shirt that night. My life was completely changed after that. The only song I danced to that night was "Intergalactic" by Beastie Boys, lol. And then a Nitzer Ebb, song I think, came on & I was in shock because everyone got on the dance floor, formed a circle & started dancing. But they were all doing the exact same dance. I called it goth line dancing. It was very strange. I've never seen anything like it before or after. LOL
To me, what got lost was this idea that "you can call me goth, but I identify as me" too many people are just trying to be goth, rather than themselves.
There was a very large goth scene in Denver, during the mid to early 00’s, but it slowly fizzled out. I was looking for something new in 97’ since the Alternative/Grunge scene was dead and buried and so were many of it’s singers. I went to my first Goth night at a local club in Boulder called Millennium, behind the Target. I think I wore ripped jeans and a flannel tied around my waist but wasn’t totally shunned due to my waist long dyed black hair. I looked around the packed bar, knew a lot of the 80’s synth pop and liked the other stuff. I was already a fan of industrial. The next day I went to the used clothing store to buy whatever black clothing items I could afford on a retail employee’s budget of 8 bucks an hour, it was 1997. I checked out the much larger scene in Denver at The Snake Pitt and 1082 Broadway. Wow, there was nothing like Sunday night’s at 1082. People were fairly respectful of others and 95% of the crowd in there Sunday finest dark clothing. In time the scene died in Boulder and shifted to many different bars in Denver. The Church was popular which is an actual old Gothic Church converted multi level bar/dance club. Another bar tried to have a goth night 5 times a week and sadly help destroy the diversity of the scene. I eventually walked away from the scene due to it being the shadow of it’s former self and an annoying ex gf. Before I left Boulder and the country in 2019, there was maybe one or two goth nights a month and the occasional concert to dress up for. The last event I attended was Goth Prom in 2018, and joined the ranks of the Elder Goths. I just turned 50 and live in a country that has never heard of a goth, but have an amazing soundtrack on all of my devices. The scene in the 90’s that I experienced could never be replicated and I only wish I had more photos.
In my situation I might have to go to a goth club by myself and make goth friends there but it's so nerve racking. I hope to meet people who share my interests or have my friends (who aren't goth) follow me or I'm gonna have to push myself to go on my own, either way I'm reaching a club for sure.
YES! You mentioned The Castle! I go there every Friday and Saturday. I love that place, it feels like home away from home. Free expression without repression... they are just giving that shit away at the door (: Also, I am in love with your aesthetic. Keep on keepin on sista.
I'm from Bucharest, Romania. Due to circumstances relating to communism falling, this period from the 90s which you describe happened here a little later, late 90s early 2000s, and i was just old enough to catch it. Now goth never really caught on, i think there's under 100 of us in a city of 2.5 million people, but metalheads were a huge thing, and it's by way of them that i started exploring darker subcultures, they were my "freaks". That time you could walk into any metal bar with long hair and wearing black, you'd feel like you were coming home, people would welcome you as their own, and you'd walk out a few hours later having made several new friends. Things have changed - metalheads, punks and goths have gotten fewer, and i see the exact sort of retreat to the online world that you describe, that same sort of judgemental standoffishness replacing the sense of community. Concerts are the only place where that kind of changes. As for goth itself, there's like one night per month in one club, which at most two dozen people will attend, and the handful of goth bands (Vals Hedone, VaduvaBOB, Divine Muzak) have mostly dissolved. You say there's bickering and divisiveness in the u.s. goth scene - at least it exists. The elders here they stay at home these days, they don't interact with the new blood. I wish i had access to the kind of community you get in places like NY, their magic tarnished such as it is.
I feel like the goth scene is only really alive in big cities in the U.S. (really big cities). The rest is just scattered throughout. For instance, I live in a city with over 200,000 people, but I only know a few other goths. There are tons of metal heads here though, but I have noticed they aren't as nice as they use to be, but that seems to be people in general these days.
Angela Benedict The Castle was always a blast. It’s located in Ybor City in Tampa that consists of a massive strip of clubs and bars so my friends and I would always bounce around from one place to another all night. There was a guy in his 60s who would frequent The Castle and he’d just be wearing his underwear. He was called The Mayor. Lol.
I've watched all of your videos probably like 3 times each. I've been subscribed for quite awhile and I've never made a comment because I don't like social interactions they scare me. But I just wanted to say you're such a beautiful person inside and out. :) Where I'm from there's hardly any goths. I go to the mall or different places and I get stares. I see noone who is like me. It's a joy to watch your videos.
I enjoy hearing about the scene back then as I was too young (born in 87) to have been able to go to anything like that or have access to one when I was old enough due to being in such a rural area in the South.
Fun times at gothic festival here in Finland... the DJ knew how to make the night fun. We sang along to the popular kid's tv show tune, we sang along to ghengis khan etc. I've never had so much fun in a club.
Love loved this video so much. I do remember the magic in the 90s. Hehe. I love listening to your memories of the past. I paint a picture in my head. It reminds me of me and my friends back in the day and now.In my town I live now I'm a total outcast haha so your videos and others and different podcasts help me feel at home when I can't be in L.A. or Bay Area out at clubs with friends. I like how you put the clip in your video. I like watching old documentaries too. I always scour the web and places to find good docs about gothic subculture. I agree people do need to chill out more and also learn to laugh at themselves. I think it is better to do so and just have fun
The only person I know interesred in the subculture is my best friend but she'll be about four hours away next year. Hopefully I'll make some friends with similar interests when I start university.
One thing that made me distance myself from the subculture years ago was the fact that, like you mentioned, if you didn't eat, breathe, sleep "Goth," you couldn't call yourself Goth. Looking back, I think the main reason I felt this way was due to the fact that I wasn't tied to a specific scene. I had a Goth blog (which I still occasionally update), so my exposure to Goth was on the internet where people can be pharisaical. It got to the point where it felt like a chore to look and be into Goth. At a certain point in college, my focus shifted to other things, and now it feels difficult to come back. I really enjoy the Goth nights in my city, and I light up when a song I know comes on. I have to admit, though, that going can be intimidating since everyone knows one another and I don't know anyone. I don't feel like I'm "with my people" there even though I ought to in many respects.
I always thought goth music was magic, and goth clubs were an escape to a sensual anything goes fantasyland ( as long as its consensual) that i immediately felt like i was with my people and i found a home. Now 20+ plus and after seeing how almost every goth (including you beautiful lady) look so youthful, maybe its the whole staying out of the sun. all i know is your so right. keep it up
You just gained a subscriber. I resonate and deeply feel what you said in this video, and I'm not even into the goth scene. I found you in the comments of a Jenna Marbles video, and i am so happy I did. 👏
Dam! i visited the Castle in the mid 90's a few times. Back when there was a large grass feild for parking and no buildings around the Castle....Times have changed there outside and inside big time. When I got back to Tampa in the early 2000's a ton of changes were made in the area. Also inside the Castle there is/was a new room for special events. 2 dance floors, the big one upstairs and the outside patio dance floor next to the bar. Good times.
I had a fake ID too to experience the NYC goth scene. Maybe it is because we grew up in the same area, the same time the same clubs. I can attest that that what she says is the same things I experienced, and we would also change up our style based on the club night/mood/event, and we did plan all week for the event/club night. There was that magic like you say. Maybe it was partly because goths were so shunned by popular opinions and the club you weren't treated like an outcast. It was outcasts being with their people. Maybe some of that is gone because we aren't really outcasts anymore, which was us as goths enduring and showing people that we should be excepted. This has turned new younger goths to now say goth clothing doesn't need to be part of the scene, and you can be goth without dressing up, or you can be goth without the music. Yet in the 90s goth club scene you would plan your outfit way in advance of the goth night. You and all your friends would decide what to wear and it was important to you. Sometimes you go with your friends to a far away goth night. Get a hotel, do eachothers makeup. You prepped for just one goth event and you couldn't wait to dance to your favorite songs, see your club friends, and also admire everyones outfits. I feel like there are newer goths that are fine with encouraging others that they don't have do any of that, that they can pick and choose what they feel like doing feom the scene and still be called goth. They are essentially picking apart the scene and trying to make it that everyone has to be included because they want the label without actually embracing what goth is and newer goths calling people elitists because they get worried then they telling people they can be goth while essentially not being goth. We used to look up to older elder goths because they were goth, they were right, they had the real like experience. I have seen a trend where internet goths, and new goths will try and tell people who have been goth for over 2 decades that they aren't goth, or that the 90's goth bands aren't goth. They try to act like they know more than the people who lived it everyday. I honestly think the encouragement of the lack of dedication to the scene is why that magic is dying. I don't feel there is anything wrong with telling people who either love the music and the scene so you want to be committed to it. It doesn't feel forced and it makes you happy to be committed to it. If being committed to something you love is too much work...maybe you don't love it and maybe you just aren't goth. That isn't a bad thing. We don't need to baby and except every person or we are going to lose the scene itself. We don't have to pander to those who only want to put in enough effort to gain the label of goth and nothing else. If you love it then it is amazing and fun, and not hard. It makes you happy to be goth, it makes you happy to listen to the music, it makes you happy to make yourself up. If those things feel forced to you in anyway than you probably just aren't goth, and there is no same in that. It isn't some great offense to not be goth. Just because it is all of a sudden some cool and edgy thing to be, doesn't mean someone should try and force themselves to fit goth because if you don't naturally love goth than maybe it's not for you. Back in the 90s goths got hate for being/dressing goth by main media. They weren't getting props, and likes. They were being called freaks, ugly, fags. They got daily harrassment by non goths. The only people who typically complimented you were other goths. I think this trying to except everyone just because they want the label of goth and the fear of being called an elitist if you don't just pander to peoples needs to be included and gain the title is what is taking away that magic. Goth wasn't a popularity contest. I would say in my opinion the people in high school who were popular and shunned others for being goth, but now it is popular to be goth, and in the 90's it was popular for girls to look like barbie. So, if the people who are doing it for only the popularity are being blindly excepted, then it will change the scene and the people who are apart of it. There is also too much internet goth experts who mislead people, and too much conflicting information. If you want to know more about goth and truly experience it. Go out and experience it if you can. Go to a club. The best way to learn is to actually do it like the 80's and 90's goths did. We were teaching ourselves. We didn't couldn't just go online and read things. There is too much misinformation online, and it is too overwhelming. I can tell what is BS and what is truth because I have lived it for about 22 years now. Angela is a goth youtuber that I can attest to her knowing what she is talking about and because her experiences are very similar to mine and so I know she doesn't BS and she is very straightforward. If I were new to the goth scene I would listen to her because she isn't a fake RUclips. Her responses and posts are very honest, and you can count on her to give you genuine elder goth experiences, which is something more newer goths are likely to make up and act like they just know it all.
Really interesting. I used to live with a lot of goth friends in London in the 90s. I have limited experience of London (UK) goth clubs in the 90s but it definitely matches your experience in the US. I think the scene was different then. But I think possibly sub culture clubs probably were different generally then (not just goth culture). In the UK at least its very hard to open club nights for sub culture groups becuase the rent is so high, its very expensive and you need to generate a lot of money to keep it going. Also the authorities in the UK more easily take away licenses for anything that slightly goes wrong (such as one person caught with drugs as an example). So some of this has been dying over a number of years. And you are so spot on about the 80 vs 90s (and clubs generally across many music cultures still played 80s music alongside). There really was less of a difference from what I saw and understood.
I miss the 90s goth clubs. Ours was on a Sunday night here and i went every Sunday for years. I ended up going back years later and it felt like I never left. I wish they still had that place. Last goth night I went to was a mix between metal and more modern music. I remember the "kinderbats" (that's what we called the young ones) that I was with complained when anything old came on but I was like "finally"
im 22 now and only one club in my entire city has a goth night and even then its not a regular weekly thing. its crazy how even with the internet its even less community nowadays
It's not just goths who changed from then to now, it's people and society in general. In the 90s, life was about going out and doing things, seeing things, having new and beautiful experiences. Now, people want to stay inside and utilize technology. That's something I greatly miss about that time period.
Also, there is a great obsession with image now. I have noticed some famous internet goths won't give you the time of day unless they think you are as attractive as they are or have as much fame as they do, no matter how nice you are to them. There was a time not too long ago in which children were taught to not judge a book by its cover, but now we have people in the goth subculture judging other goths by their outward appearance. How "goth" you look or how hot you are. That person they find ugly or looking like a mall goth just might be the most goth person ever and someone very kind and fun to be around. This is more of a reflection on modern day society than goths specifically. In the 80s and 90s, I think goths suffered more persecution than they usually do now so we tended to be less judgmental toward other goths because we knew how it felt to be judged harshly based on appearances (unless you were in junior high or high school. A lot of kids liked to throw around "poser" for silly reasons). These days, people compliment goths more often than they insult them in a lot of areas, so there is a disconnect somewhere in the way of empathy.
I agree 100%... it was the best decade
I agree. You see a very common sense of nostalgia for the 70's, 80's, and 90's among all kinds of people from punks to metalheads to goth and so on. For me, I even miss the 2000's, even though I was just a kid. We used to throw parking lot shows where we would have a couple bands play and there would be at least 30 people who would come down to see the show. Nowadays, there isn't as much of that commitment or sense of comradry and brotherhood. I seen it happening in some places but not as often as it used to.
see thats exactly why there's SUCh a need to revitalize society, culture and arts!!! We need to externalize our desires more and remind people of the good feelings, oxytocin and dopamine release when you go out and party especially in a particular scene where everyone has a place to fit in. Once the younger generation get a taste for that, they wont let go. We can do it!!
That is something I always say to everybody, but no one seems to understand. Real life was outside, it was very unlike to stay at home saturday night. We used to plan weeks later what we were going to do on weekend. Today, if you go to a club, bar or Pub, bands are playing to no one because everybody is at home watching netflix, covid made it even worse. Also people are more worried about taking photos of themselves and posting on instagram than enjoying the moment and friends. It is so ridiculous. I feel so sad, and I miss the 90s and early 2000s a lot.
I love the surprised look I get from people when I tell them I used to take ballet for six years and that I cosplay. Most people assume goths only do “goth” things. Why be a square when you can be a cube?
I find both those things to be quite goth to do.
but I get your point. lol
it seems like everything has lost its magic
It's called growing up.
They say the world didn't end in 2000 but has anyone ever really been happy since then?
Miss Murder I was born in the wrong generation cause everyone I know it’s just sad and overworked, no time to hang out with friends anymore...
It’s the internet. And I’m not anti-internet. But when I went to goth/industrial clubs (1993-2000ish), things were underground. You went for the atmosphere, the experience, to hear the music, to make connections with like-minded people...it wasn’t “exclusive” necessarily but was an underground community. Now everything is at your fingertips. Social media has supplanted face-to-face communities, you can find any rare record, remix, etc., in like 2 seconds instead of digging endlessly through records and cassettes in stores. Some of what the internet has brought is really amazing. But some things have died or changed as a result. It just is what it is.
@@bf13137 Absolutely. It's not an edgy, super underground club that only goths know about if any wannabe goth with an internet connection can find it in 3 seconds. Back then you got invited by those already acquainted. Its like the magic trick that you found out about. It loses its magic and it's Wonder once you know how the trick is done. The internet has done this with all kinds of things. I remember any early 2000s people would tell me about clubs and I would be super interested because it seems like some kind of underground exclusive thing that you had to be invited to. I think what the internet all of that mysticism has been debunked and revealed to the public so now we know that it never was any magic that this is what it was always about it's always about money and marketing and blah blah blah. I think the internet just illuminated that fact and took away the magic like a done with so many other things
i’m 15 so i can’t comment on the club scene but i still feel the fear of being deemed unauthentic/poser. and i’m really caught up in it it’s a shame. if i ever listen to something not goth and enjoy it i actually feel kind of guilty and fake. this toxic mentality needs to end ugh.
Where do you live?
Angela Benedict philadelphia
Nobody should feel guilty for liking something other than goth. I'm pretty sure where the stigma comes from to begin with is when people call things that aren't goth, "goth". Like saying you're goth because you listen to Marilyn Manson, as an example. Well, that's not goth. You're not goth. If you are into *actual* goth music and the goth scene/community to whatever extent, then whatever else you listen to or do doesn't matter.
Gurl, Britney Spears. Be you and who cares if that makes you "goth." It's more important to be you then to fit into any stereotype. Be you honey. If that means listening to Britney Spears, wearing all black, and loving to surround yourself with spooky things then do it. I promise you'll be happier for it. ❤☠❤
Julie Niskala hey I'm from Philly too 🖤 I don't go out much to events because I feel the judging too (or maybe cuz of my paranoia, Idk heh)
I really miss the club culture of the 80's. The scene in Houston was really inclusive since hard core punk, dance techno, goth and rockabilly all shared the same music venues. The goth crowd would should up to punk shows, punks would go to Goth night; and everyone got along for the most part. All of that really started to change in the late 90's though. Kinda sad. :(
Popularity took hold and attitudes began to shift. It's a shame :(
Its still like that. I just went to a local punk show at a rockabilly club lol. Another time I went to a punk show at this underground spot with no address and I was amazed at how inclusive they were when the hispanics had their lil Cumbia parties in between the sets. Although I can say, the spark sure doesn't feel all there at all, yet at the underground lot, it felt like the closest you could get to an experience that is of the scene back then
Dear Angela, AMEN. Goth is goth. I live for the day that sense of wonder can be captured once again. I’ve only ever had “goth night” at a local bar called Mars Bar in Richmond, Virginia. An actual dedicated goth club was not around but damn it I hit goth night ever Wednesday at Mars Bar because it’s what I, and the other goths had. I never wanted those nights to end.
You could wear any of the goth styles and it didn’t matter because we all knew why we were there. The sense of dissection hadn’t hit the subculture yet.
I want to see that happen again. Thank you for this.
Remember revelations at twisters, or 1408 before that? I know I'm showing my age there, but those were my hay days... I got out of the scene about the time mars bar got going, but still listen to everything from back then.
Kinda funny to see a local post... cheers.
I miss Mars Bar! 80s music and friends, we had such a great time back in the day. I went to Sacrosanct after it had moved to Fallout next door, which is thankfully still there. =)
Damn I'm in Richmond Virginia and I've been meaning to find goth clubs and stuff in the VA area.
I wish I could have experienced the goth clubs like you had. I've been going to goth clubs for 10 years and I've never felt welcome.
I nearly fell out of bed at 10:28 “Gee i hope they didn’t misunderstand me and think i am a member of a Germanic tribe that LISTENS TO BUILDINGS” BAHAHAHAHA i’ve had my couple minutes to get the laughs out but they just keep on coming, i don’t quite know why that sentence was so funny to me😂💗
I'm the same way! Sometimes just the way a sentence is put together has the ability to set me off and I'm laughing on and off everytime I think about it!
@@angelabenedict same
that made me laugh too
Even I can see a dramatic shift from just a decade ago. There are more people who would rather sit outside the venue to drink and smoke just to say they went than those who go inside and actually want to have a genuine experience.
As an asthmatic and a cancer patient, I am so glad people can't smoke inside. I would never be able to go. I know what you mean though, Kiri. I never understood people who would just sit outside and smoke, or sit at the bar all night while amazing music was playing.
Exactly! This was never a comment on the smoking ban, I'm all for it. People can always run outside to have a smoke then go back inside to have fun, it's a comment on the people who only ever sit outside drinking and smoking and never actually take part in the event they most likely paid a cover charge to attend.
Why dictate how people should enjoy their night out? If they payed the cover and are buying drinks they are supporting the event. They may enjoy the atmosphere and music but not feel like dancing and that is ok. They might be there primarily to socialise too. Full dance floors are great but as long as people are enjoying themselves and keep coming back who cares? Some events are more laid back.
I'm one of those guys who sit outside to drink, and smoke. (not the whole time, but 2/3 or so). I do it because it's hard to converse over the music, and I go to socialize. (in some circles, there may be a pretentious "we're better than our club" nonsense but that's not why I do it)
aytakk Great point! I was responding to the dialogue in the video about that lost "magic" of the event. Part of it could simply be getting older but I was commenting on the fact that I generally see more people outside the venue these days than in it & that may be why. Of course people are free to do what they want at an event so long as they're not hurting anyone.
This all needed to be said.
It irks me to no end when I start a discussion online about how goth music and gothic aesthetic and literature can sometimes go hand in hand, then people come out of the woodworks to tell me how wrong I am for drawing such a comparison or making such an example. “Anything that existed before 1979 isn’t goth, it’s gothic,” they say. They somehow thinks that invalidates the examples of inspiration that goth musicians take from gothic literature. Goth music doesn’t exist in a vacuum like these people seem to think it does. These people seem to believe that “Spleen and The Ideal” and “De Profundis” of the amazing work of Dead Can Dance were just randomly pulled out of someone’s ass by a goth musician. Charles Baudelaire wrote that volume in “Les Fleurs du Mail”, named “Spleen et le Idéal” and the poem “De Profundis Clamavi” (Latin for “From the Depths I Cry”). Why is it so wrong for “goth” and “gothic” to be interchangeable? Shouldn’t it help unite us instead of divide us? The difference is two letters: “I” and “C”. Yet now, it’s causing fights and put-downs. I see a huge problem here.
It’s a collective experience and aesthetic of the amazing spectrum of goth music, literature, mindset, and being united under an incredible love for things dark, beautiful, sensual, and mysterious. Why can’t we just take that shit and get along?
And I fucking hate the fashion police. They can take a bottle of hairspray and shove it up their ass if they say I look like a poseur for sporting my naturally curling, untested hair. I’m just doing what Poe described as “Setting full force of the Homeric epithet of ‘Hyacinthine.’”
Amazing video, as always, babe. I love how hard you are trying to unify this fragmented subculture.
If you want to know the reason why the two somewhat split, it's pretty simple. Darkly Inclined/Dark Romanticism being conflated as the same thing as Goth. I'm pretty sure you've run into those people who think Goth is not about the music and think that you don't have to listen or like any Goth music to be a Goth. As long as you wear black, pile on the eye shadow and lipstick, and listen to Metal or classical music, you're a Goth and if anyone says otherwise, they're an elitist.
This kind of thinking is what really annoyed Goths and just made them want to distance themselves from these people who were falsifying their scene for the sake of attention and popularity (The "Mall Goth" trend of 2003-2006 is a good example of this).
That's pretty much the main factor that contributed the divide because the thing is. While Angela's experience definitely reflects the good and chill time of the 80s and 90s club scene, it also helped that the people were on the same page. They knew that if someone liked things like Gothic literature, imagery, etc, they would also be a fan of Goth music and vice versa. There was no need to for a distinction to be made in those times until the Darkly-Inclined and "Fashion Goths" tried to come in and change the meaning of the scene in the 00s.
Kai Decadence
what does " Darkly-Inclined " mean?
"Darkly-Inclined" is just a term used to describe people who are purely just into the dark and macabre but tend to not have interest in the Goth subculture as in they don't listen to the music associated with the scene.
Exactly this as well.
Do you think those people just haven't heard any of the music or just haven't found a goth band/artist that they like?...I don't see why somebody wouldn't like any of the music at all if they were so into the dark and macabre..
Goth clubs in the 90's = A safe haven for dark minded outcasts who like Goth Rock, Darkwave, and Industrial music.
Goth clubs in the 2000's and onward = Just another place where you feel judged.
We gotta bring that sense of belonging and community back.
Angela Benedict I couldn't agree more.
I'm starting to think this skin care thing is a cover up and you're really a vampire or something.
I was 2 years old in 98 and you don't look that much older than me.
I wish i was 2 in 98 :) i was 18 lol.
Same :)
It might just be good genetics, not smoking, and staying out of the sun!
Staying out of the sun being the biggest one IMO. Lots of elder goths don't have a ton of wrinkles because of the pale aesthetic.
Lol I was 5 in 98 XD
I have been wishing for a very long time that I could step back into the 90's for a bit(and not turn back into a toddler) because I have always wanted to experience something like this. By the time I was old enough to go to clubs it was way past the 2000's.
You hit the nail on the head describing what it felt like entering the goth club....I had that same feeling with the Bank.
I lived in the Bank.
I'd say I was a regular from '93 to '97, I remember always going into Trash & Vaudeville to grab a pass on the way there.
I think the Batcave was on 30th street and if I remember correctly that's where your hardcore goths went to. I wore black but never rocked the makeup (I thought I would have looked stupid), I felt I would have caught shit if I went there. I admit it was around '97 I stopped going because there were too many pretentious people (especially dudes) walking around. Still I miss those days I had so much fun hanging out and meeting up with 'club friends' as Angela put it.
Totally agree with the convenience, I lived in Elmhurst - Queens and the subway was right there. Got off West 4th or near Cooper Square and off I was.
Kind of wish I could go back in time and experience what it was like being goth in the 90's. I wish the toxic idea that you're being a poser if you like anything that is unrelated to the goth subculture makes you a poser did not exist... I always have this thought in the back of my head that I'm being a poser if I don't listen to goth music everyday or dress goth. Kind of frustrating, but hopefully one day I will no longer have that thought. Also, I love the way you explain things in your videos and are so inclusive!
I feel kind of robbed that I missed out on this sort of atmosphere. My city never had much of a goth scene, but there used to be a club I would go to called The Wreckd Room, which played a lot of industrial and occasionally strayed into darkwave territory. It was a tiny, mostly undecorated (besides a few band posters with blacklights on them) basement with a capacity of maybe 60 people, which I don't think I ever saw it reach more than once. It closed down a few years ago because the owner was losing money keeping it open or someshit. The scene there was often very elitist and unwelcoming and people didn't generally do a lot of talking to each other, but I loved to go there and stomp around and dance like an idiot underneath the shitty lasers and strobelights anyways. Another place used to be around called Dissent, which had to close its' doors and reopened at a different location under a different name, sticking around for a couple of years before closing due to some drug business happening there. Another place opened briefly called Moon Over Marin which was a good place for metal and industrial and so-called "gothic metal", nifty place with mirrored walls that used to be the entry hall to an old theatre that was mostly demolished, but they also ended up closing due to a variety of insurance issues. Pretty much the only place that stayed open more than 5 years was the Wreckd room, and it was never really a goth club, more of an "alternative" club.
For several years, I identified as goth but it wasn't until about a year ago when I realized I had no clue what goth was. Growing up in a small town with no goth scene, I had never heard Bauhaus or The Cure or anything else about the subculture. It wasn't until I came across your channel (and your music playlists) that really opened the doors for me. Before that, I knew about the fashion, about Poe and the internal desire to buy halloween decorations to put on display all year round, but I didn't even know goth was a genre of music (though unbeknownst to me, some artists that I was into were actually goth like The Birthday Massacre, Johnny Hollow and Voltaire). At first I didn't have any interest in the music but then I actually listened to it and, well, I love it! The whole subculture has this beautiful allure to it that's so indescribable and it just makes me want to listen, to learn and to know more. I've been hooked onto other goth channels, as well as, listening to The Belfry's podcasts. Even though I don't have a local scene, it just makes me want to try harder to find some way into the subculture and to help keep it alive. I don't want to ramble anymore, so I will end with a thank you. Thank you Angela for helping me get a good start on my dark and gothic journey and I hope you keep doing what you're doing because a lot of us baby bats appreciate it. :)
Yooo I had to think for a second to make sure I didn’t write this, except the bit about the small town lol
You can never re-capture the magic of being new. But we can run events now and pass that magic on to the new people today. Hopefully they will do the same thing for others too.
aytakk This is what makes me hopeful! All we can do is show them and hope they're receptive. There are so many who are. We just need to get them out.
Something we need to be careful of. Too much nostalgia can kill things. If new people think everything sucks now because the 80s/90s is so overhyped online, they may not even give the current events IRL a proper go.
As great as it all was back then we can't have it back. We live in a different world and need to adjust with it. But that doesn't mean we can't have awesome stuff now.
I can understand that. The whole point really is to show that if it existed once before there's no reason why it can't be that way again. I don't think that things suck, but comparatively there's a huge difference and that's down to us and the younger generation. They don't realize how many of the cards they actually hold and just by showing up they can make a world of difference.
I was around in the 80s, those days where we were ‘alternative ‘.... I still head out to goth clubs, and for me in Melbourne, Australia in 2018, I am feeling quite a lot of magic is returning...
It is. People are getting excited again
It’s always a good day when Angela uploads🖤🖤
I've gone to the Castle many times!, first time on Halloween a few years ago. I went with two friends intending to go there but they didn't want to wait in line or go in the end. I was so sad and was about to turn away but a couple dressed in matching clockwork orange outfits called to me saying you can hang with us for the night. I was taken a back, and I'm usually shy around strangers but I took a chance and said yes. It turned out to be a fun magical night, filled to the brim with people. Although there definitely was a mix of types of people, but everyone was all having fun together and enjoying the vibe. So glad that was my first experience and can't thank that nice couple enough.
The Castle is still so much fun. I don't get to visit very often, unfortunately.
I want to go!
Saturday they are having a Vampire Ball
I still haven't gone, my dad promised to take me when I turn 18 though.
You should go. I am a veteran of the 90's NYC scene who lived in the Tampa area for a little while, and it does have that same "leaving the world behind" feel that the Bank, Mother, and Limelight had. I think the reason the NYC scene lost that feel was Giuliani's crack down on the clubs. There really aren't any huge weekly goth-industrial nights anymore like there used to be. It now tends to be monthly events that have to keep changing location, or be in really small venues where they don't get to really leave a distinct footprint. The Castle has been there 25 years and has always been an alternative club, so you don't have that feeling that they just threw up some red and black sheets on the wall to make it feel goth, because tomorrow it has to be a hipster bar.
The Castle still has the look but the "magic"that was in the air in the late 80's early 90's is missing there as well now.
Thank you for sharing the video of "The Castle"! My first goth club experience was in the summer of 1997 at the Castle. My friends and I had just graduated high school and we drove almost an hour away just to experience the night. Thereafter, almost every Friday and Saturday nights for many years, no matter where I lived Orlando,Saint Augustine, Daytona Beach, Miami, I still drove all the way to Ybor to dance the night away because it was so addicting. Sadly it's been awhile since I have gone to any clubs, life gets in the way, but it would be amazing to recreate the magic and energy that we had in the 90s. Thank you for creating your channel about the goth culture and sharing your experience.
You gave a shout out to Black Tape for a Blue Girl! I love them still. How I miss Vampiricus and Club Noire. DJ Xian was great. She'd play the goth standards, but then throw in some Japanese goth rock or even disco and no one lost it. We'd just dance. And thanks for making the point that goths come in all shapes, sizes and colors. I never cared, but I feel for baby bats of color who think there's no place for them.
Everything you've said makes me pine for the old days. Things were so much better for goths back then.
The Castle is my home club and I am exceptionally thankful to have it close enough by that I can still get to it when I get the urge to get my dance on. Been going since 1995 when I turned 18. It's also the longest running single genre club in the area at 26 years strong. Last time I went I did feel the magic slowly dissipating but I will always be fortunate to have that readily available to me as I grew up.
I certainly think the clubs are missing that feeling of "wow, this is home, these are my people" along with that element of "danger" like anything could happen, I only get that nowadays from a local dive bar called Monstercade that plays alot of different dark music.
Hell you have a point .I was there in the 90s and went back to a club i used to go to after about a 15 year gap .
Was it me or the club ? I came to the conclusion the atmosphere had gone .
People are now educated by the internet .Goth has become a fashion statement as in you should buy all this .
We had no money , we just wanted to have fun meet friend dance and drink a lot .
Now Its all logged filmed and allied on the phone . We were reckless and sometimes stupid ,but had fun
Thanks so much for this! I'm a Bank alumni ('97 / '98) as well as Pyramid, Coney Island High, Opera etc around the same time. There was truly something magical at that time - a sense of camaraderie for sure!
I love your discription of the feel when enter the club. My mom took me to funhouse, I well under age. I went to batcave daily when also well underage lol. So I got to experience the late 90's early 2000 of the scene.
I felt the same way walking in event and seeing the people and sound and the red tinted lights. I can go on for ever. Including the way the night felt as it was ending. The night was so embracing groups would break off and travel the still dead city together clinging on to feelings we had the entire night before sun rise.
What I feel the Goth community fell short through out the years is the embracement of positive change. And you mention the very same thing in the same. Like a simple song of Neuroticfish- coming to take me away. It was fun. People laughed and skipped and it just brought people together. Instead of picking apart the differnce of a Victorian Goth and steam punk.
P.s GREAT SHOUT OUT!!! Ian Ford and Sean! Red Room!
PEOPLE! Go out and enjoy what we have left so we can grow long term down the road!
Don't be shy! If you never experienced or never listened to Gothic cultured music. You might find something you love in it....... Or someone!
This is Bears. From a fellow New Yorker who traveled the tri state for goth events I personally loved the video. Thanks!
Thanks for featuring the Castle! That’s been my haunt for 25 years! In fact, I’m taking my daughter there in July for her 18th birthday!
Love this video! I loved hat that guy had to say about seeing the beauty in darkness and appreciating it because you cannot have light without darkness. The yin and the yang concept, I have always believed in this. Great message
Wow i can't believe you brought up the castle! I just recently moved up to west CT but i used to love going over to the castle when I had the chance, although it isn't nearly as cool as it looks in those clips
It’s weird to hear it called slave collar. I agree with you. I’ve heard someone say I’m not a building, so you should know the difference between goth and gothic. My first response was “Huh?”
You'd attach a leash to the ring. Every now and again you'd see someone being lead with the leash attached.
Lead by a leash huh? Dang, maybe that's what I need to do if I go to a Goth event, bring a leash and find available Goth men wearing collars with an O-Ring to clip it to snag me a Goth man lol
Kidding of course haha.
I took one of my friends on a walk to the library twelve years ago. lol
I picked up some vampire novels too. Cliche, but a lot of fun.
Wow haha
Thanks again, Angela, for the great video and your insight on the Goth/Gothic subculture. You've mentioned so many good and relevant points, and I totally agree with you on all of them. I think we are the same age ;) I've been in the scene since mid 90s and I see and feel the change. I also remember that 'magic' feeling when you entered the club in 90s early 00s. I think nowadays people have become very individualistic and selfish in a way, and social media plays a big role in that 'division' issue that you are referring to. But on the other hand, you are using social media to talk about our beautiful scene, educate people and share the love for the music. Thank you for doing that!
@Angela I love this. I know I am late the party here. This all rings true! My dancing really started in LA and OC in 1988. This discussion really hit the mark for me. I danced through the 90s in LA, SF, SB, SLO. It was always stepping into an immersive atmosphere. 2005 I drove across the US West to East and then back, zig-zagging to visit as many goth clubs as I could - while looking for a school.Thank you Vamp List!
Videos like this are so fucking important.
I totally agree, and I think the other thing is self awareness(for example draping yourself over a tombstone with roses in total earnest vs. finding it cheesy and ironic in the present) Basically what you said about goth being nitpicked to the point of disintegrating, there's only one way to be goth and it's set in stone now. Goth back then was fast and loose and if you knew goth, you were it, no one in the 80s and 90s were arguing what is or isn't goth because it didnt need to be said or explained!
This video was extremely refreshing for me to hear. I’m scared of even trying to embrace my “dark side” at times because sometimes? I don’t WANT to dress this way, I might feel colorful one day, or I might say “hey I feel like listening to some nostalgic boybands!” And I’m young.. I feel inauthentic. I’m suppose to be boxed and and ONE THING AT ALL TIMES, otherwise I’m a poser. Why can’t we be many things? The 90’s seemed much more accepting.
OMG that news clip! ASHEN FASHION
I've never heard that term!
Thank you for this, Angela.
Thank you for being such a positive figment of my youth and happiest memories. I'm glad you enjoyed this. I hope it helps people get out and enjoy themselves.
It is a joy and an honor that I could be a part of your life, even through a song or a passing moment, but especially as a figment of youth and happiest memories. I mean that truly. The work you are doing now is insightful, meaningful, and, most importantly, real. Again, you have my thanks for everything you have done and are doing. I wish you all the best.
Call me a poser, call me a faux-goth, call me whatever the hell you want. So long as I am enjoying myself, and not impeding on anyone elses fun in any way aside from trivial things like how I'm dressed, why should I care what anyone else thinks of me.
You are a wonderful person who has inspired many. If the rest of the loud and proud individuals in this culture were even half as open as you, this subculture would feel so much more unified.
Being around Angela's age. I always thought that goth was the noun form and gothic the adjectival form.
As in 'I am a goth in my gothic dress."? Yeah, I can see that working.
Angela Benedict yea, that's pretty much how I've always used the words
I've definitely done that myself. It's just weird seeing them split into different things. It makes conversing a minor challenge.
I don't think it's disappeared completely. I go to an alt club in my area and it's the first club I've ever enjoyed going to. The people are interesting ( a big older crowd as well) and they are friendly and welcoming. The music is amazing. I dance for hours there and I also get that sense of "dread" when the night is coming to an end. Obviously I wasn't there in the 90s to compare, but today's scene feels just as magical to me, even if it's much smaller and harder to find. My love of the music comes from my mom was goth in the 90s in London.
This video was so awesome and interesting again. Angela is my favorite youtuber at this time.
I have to say this.. there was literally a feeling of magic in the air in the 90s! I just couldn't do anything because I was a baby. But I could FEEL IT!!!!!!!!!!!! I remember LITERALLY having a thought at age two: "Mannn I wanna go out and party.. but I'm a baby. I have to wait." That video of the club omg I can feel it. I'm just happy I was born at that time because at least I can feel it based on era. I'm very empathic. I have always said that the 90s just had this spark. It seep into mainstream too, Gloria Estefan, Sade etc. It was an exciting time. That needs to come back.
I agree and attribute this to losing our youthfulness. I remember walking into the club, leaving the world behind and dancing all night long, only stopping to rehydrate.
I was one who likes offbeat music I really did not label myself back then you could go clubbing not hardly obsess about getting hurt or killed in violence today you would not attempt to do that at least not often as a lifestyle sad this generation is one of technology not quality of life or much else
I think one thing that no one mentions is the general lack of support of newer bands from djs especially in the states. In SoCal you rarely hear She Past Away, Frozen Autumn, etc and the djs get either livid or claim the club owners "won't let them" play newer stuff. That's what killed my enthusiasm from clubs, hearing the same Siouxsie and Cure songs every night and no variety.
It's kinda bad from an economic pov as well. so many people are unaware of all the newer bands who try and keep the genre alive, but since they don't get any playtime, they fall into obscurity. Of course there's wgt, but being there 3 times, I can say it's ridiculously expensive. I think if djs/club promoters gave more variety, maybe people would be more enthusiastic, and it might bring back the curiosity of "ooh, i like this song, what is this band?" and so on
OMG! I used to go to the Castle in Tampa for Goth/Industrial Night in the '90s and I remember them putting it on the news. It was so much fun. I really miss it! BTW, you are so cute! I love bats too. Love your channel. Stay spooky, girl!!!!!! :)
Okay just fair warning... This comment may be a little long and I apologize if it ends up being so, I'll try not to drag on (lol you know how I comment by now haha).
Okay a few things to note. I totally understand what you're saying about how Goth was back in the 80s and 90s and how there wasn't much fuss going on. Goth was Goth and Gothic and Goth could be used interchangeably with no problem at all. Everyone was on the same page back in that time so there was no reason to have a separation of the words. But see here's the thing. Remember how in one of your older videos you mentioned that in the 00s, you kinda took a little break from the scene and focused on other things and then when you came back to the scene, you didn't recognize just what heck happened to it and created that horrifying mismatched frog monster thing to illustrate how you felt lol?
Well the answer is during the 00s, that's when the misconstruction of Goth really started to take full effect and it all started with the people who had no real interest in Goth music and just only cared about looking dark while listening to Industrial or Metal (usually Symphonic, Gothic, or Black because those genres were really starting to gain traction in the 00s), or classical music and thinking that was enough to make them Goth despite not having any likeness or fondness for Goth scene music (whether it be 1980s, 1990s, 2000s. From Post Punk, General Goth Rock, Darkwave, Ethereal Wave, etc.). These people did so much damage to the scene along with mainstream media and online journal outlets and it caused that divide you noticed when you came back to the scene, albeit the online scene.
Like I mentioned in the online post, because of people equating being darkly inclined to being the same as Goth when we all know they are two different things. It got to the point where people started being vocal about the differences.
Now I've said this before and I'll say it again that yes, it is true that Goths don't have to listen to just Goth music, that would be absurd and it would just burn you out if you only listened to one genre of music and I encourage people to listen to all kinds of music. But the thing is if you don't like any Goth scene specific music at all (and no, I'm not talking about Industrial here), like any type of Goth scene music from Post Punk, Goth Rock, Darkwave, Coldwave, Ethereal Wave, or Deathrock no matter from whatever decade then I'm sorry but I wouldn't call you a Goth. And I'm not saying this in a "I'm better than you" kind of way, I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to call yourself something specific when you don't have any interest in the thing the subject is centered around. This is why the emphasis on Goth vs Darkly Inclined and yes, "gothic" have become a prominent thing in recent years.
And before anyone just thinks I'm some elitist prick who can't handle people listening to other kinds of music, go to my channel and look at my playlists and you'll see how wrong you are lol I'm a slave to Disco & Funk 70s music haha.
Speaking for myself, it was never about people listening to things other than Goth but rather, people calling themselves Goths and then saying they don't like any Goth scene music, not even at least 5 bands. That or the people who equates genres like Metal or Industrial and considering them to be the epitome of Goth. And just to clarify with Industrial, I'm not saying it's bad or anything, I love some of the stuff (mostly early) but that scene was always affiliated with Rivetheads, it was a different subculture that just happened to get along with Goth.
Anyway back on topic. I'm sure there are other things that contributed to this divide but I decided to stick with the main ones that stuck out to me the most and I hope this explanation cleared some things up at the very least. As someone who was a part of the conversation you mentioned in the video, I just felt I needed to clarify what I meant there. It wasn't meant to come off as trying to be a Dbag or anything like that, just giving some insight on how this phenomena (if you want to call it that) came to be and why you see it so much these days.
Good video though. I loved the news clip you showed as I could definitely feel the aura of that club and made me wish I could just jump into the computer and explore the Goth club and meet the patrons lol
There were always people who didn't know the music was connected to goth, even in the 90s (and I'm sure even probably in the 80s), especially if you didn't live in a big city. These days, information is at our fingertips and there is no excuse for ignorance, but back then a lot of people didn't know the half of the history of goth because almost no one had the internet and if you did, it was so slow. Music was just something you discovered from compilations, the few magazines at our disposal, chatrooms, and from friends (or if you were really lucky, the radio). Really, it's not just goths who changed from then to now, it's people and society in general. In the 90s, life was about going out and doing things, seeing things, having new and beautiful experiences. Now, people want to stay inside and utilize technology. That's something I greatly miss about that time period.
Oh yes, I totally forgot to mention that these kinds of people existed back then too, my bad. But yes I do agree that in this modern day of the internet with all the information at our fingertips, there is no excuse for misinformation on Goth at this point and that's why when I run into those people who get bent out of shape when you tell them that music like Marilyn Manson or Evanescence is not Goth, I can't help but shake my head in disappointment.
And you're right that these days, most people are homebodies and would rather stay home than go out and socialize. The internet has done some incredible things and I'm not going to sit here and lie saying that the Internet is a bad thing but it definitely affected socialization the more and more convenient it got.
Because even when you are out in public and just sitting around (I'm kind of a people watcher), I see most people in their groups glued to their phones. I actually met up with an old friend few days ago and she made an observation saying how she was surprised I wasn't on my phone the whole time we hung out lol
Yeah. I love the internet and technological advances, but unfortunately, oftentimes, even good things have bad effects on aspects of society and this just happens to be the case here.
Agree 100%
omg that clip! I love the girl dressed all in flowing white... so beautiful 😍
Thanks for putting this video up. I've felt this way going out to dance nights in the past few years, which is one of the reasons I moved to NYC 10 years ago - for the better alternative nightlife. Hoping that the magic comes back.
This video is everything. Love your channel's content ❤️❤️❤️
this video gave me chiiilllsss! you explained everything so well. i would die to be a goth in the 90s :-(
Glad you made this video, I’ve always thought being goth/alt was cool but I was raised super religiously so I didn’t get into the scene until I was 18 and it’s super lonely cause ppl think I’m a poser haha
This is so refreshing to hear, and rather validating. I grew up with a strict dad who basically dictated everything down to what color of clothes I could wear (my prom dress was a white satin and velvet Victorian gown from Hot Topic - my mom bought it for me while I was visiting her, he gave me crap for it) and basically assigned me the role of "princess" (minus the glam). I'm Goth at heart but obviously never stepped too far outside of the box of public conventionality because I was too sensitive to deal with the consequences (my friends would NEVER describe me as goth but they would describe me as a little "off"). The magic was always in my head and heart, but over the years it seems to have faded, as everyone else seems to have noticed. I decided to search for it and this is the first place I landed. Thank you
2:34 from what I’ve heard plus what I know of the time that goth was forming, the clubs was how people got together. It’s how you got inspiration for your style, how you found new music, how you hung out with friends, and how you made new friends. Before the internet things like this, communities, really depended on people physically coming together. Idk how people not know this but at the same time I’ve been watching videos by older goths since I was 18/19 and I’ve even read a book or two by those considered elder goths plus my mom was in the scene in her youth. So maybe I just find it easier than some to understand this. I’ve had similar experiences with things like Pride, where you get to be with people who understand you, where you get to learn new things and make new friends, and just have fun all while doing it.
I'm always waiting for the next video! Nice video.
Well stated Indeed. a fine ending to a hard-night's work for me : ) Thank You Angela!
It was not until last year that I went to my first goth club, and i felt just like that. I walked in and stopped. I thought, I'm with people like me! Everyone was so welcoming and with so much understanding of me being new to embracing who I am. I feel like I found a family. Maybe the magic is not quite dead!
Perfect description of the goth clubs in the 90s...it was mesmerising!
im so happy i was a kid in the 80s.back then newwavers,,new romantics,,goths all got along and hung out together.
That was like a good TED talk. Very well done.
thank you for presenting me eyes of the nightmare jungle !!
Paying it forward
I wish I could dance cuz then I would go to goth nights more...lol and I have so much social anxiety
I clubbed from 95 to 2000, and I'm sad people can't have the same thing now. I hope folk are making new kinds of magic for people to find a home in.
This channel is growing ever more, is gud
I’m surprised I didn’t see this video earlier because I love your story based videos. Also because I go to the Castle, and have been for almost 10 years now. But it is incredibly different over the past year. A lot of people go to just make fun of goths. I wish it wasn’t so because even though I’m not emerged in the subculture anymore, I still like bringing out what remains which is the music, and I love to share this with my boyfriend as well.
It’s just nice to be somewhere with people who understand you and love the same things....
🖤🖤🖤
I'm so glad I found your channel!
The Bank was my first goth night also, back in July of 1998. I was spending the summer with my 1st love, I was 19 * a grunge girl fresh out of small-town Georgia. The closest thing I'd ever experienced to goth was watching The Craft, lol. My boyfriend's best friend & his ex took me out shopping & I purchased my first spiked collar. I wore my first see-through shirt that night. My life was completely changed after that. The only song I danced to that night was "Intergalactic" by Beastie Boys, lol. And then a Nitzer Ebb, song I think, came on & I was in shock because everyone got on the dance floor, formed a circle & started dancing. But they were all doing the exact same dance. I called it goth line dancing. It was very strange. I've never seen anything like it before or after. LOL
I have to say, you are a joy to listen to..and easy on the eyes. You rep it well , good talk
I'm happy you enjoyed it!
To me, what got lost was this idea that "you can call me goth, but I identify as me" too many people are just trying to be goth, rather than themselves.
There was a very large goth scene in Denver, during the mid to early 00’s, but it slowly fizzled out. I was looking for something new in 97’ since the Alternative/Grunge scene was dead and buried and so were many of it’s singers. I went to my first Goth night at a local club in Boulder called Millennium, behind the Target. I think I wore ripped jeans and a flannel tied around my waist but wasn’t totally shunned due to my waist long dyed black hair. I looked around the packed bar, knew a lot of the 80’s synth pop and liked the other stuff. I was already a fan of industrial. The next day I went to the used clothing store to buy whatever black clothing items I could afford on a retail employee’s budget of 8 bucks an hour, it was 1997. I checked out the much larger scene in Denver at The Snake Pitt and 1082 Broadway. Wow, there was nothing like Sunday night’s at 1082. People were fairly respectful of others and 95% of the crowd in there Sunday finest dark clothing. In time the scene died in Boulder and shifted to many different bars in Denver. The Church was popular which is an actual old Gothic Church converted multi level bar/dance club. Another bar tried to have a goth night 5 times a week and sadly help destroy the diversity of the scene. I eventually walked away from the scene due to it being the shadow of it’s former self and an annoying ex gf. Before I left Boulder and the country in 2019, there was maybe one or two goth nights a month and the occasional concert to dress up for. The last event I attended was Goth Prom in 2018, and joined the ranks of the Elder Goths. I just turned 50 and live in a country that has never heard of a goth, but have an amazing soundtrack on all of my devices. The scene in the 90’s that I experienced could never be replicated and I only wish I had more photos.
Preach!
I love your videos. Keep it up!
In my situation I might have to go to a goth club by myself and make goth friends there but it's so nerve racking. I hope to meet people who share my interests or have my friends (who aren't goth) follow me or I'm gonna have to push myself to go on my own, either way I'm reaching a club for sure.
YES! You mentioned The Castle! I go there every Friday and Saturday. I love that place, it feels like home away from home. Free expression without repression... they are just giving that shit away at the door (: Also, I am in love with your aesthetic. Keep on keepin on sista.
I'm from Bucharest, Romania. Due to circumstances relating to communism falling, this period from the 90s which you describe happened here a little later, late 90s early 2000s, and i was just old enough to catch it. Now goth never really caught on, i think there's under 100 of us in a city of 2.5 million people, but metalheads were a huge thing, and it's by way of them that i started exploring darker subcultures, they were my "freaks".
That time you could walk into any metal bar with long hair and wearing black, you'd feel like you were coming home, people would welcome you as their own, and you'd walk out a few hours later having made several new friends. Things have changed - metalheads, punks and goths have gotten fewer, and i see the exact sort of retreat to the online world that you describe, that same sort of judgemental standoffishness replacing the sense of community. Concerts are the only place where that kind of changes.
As for goth itself, there's like one night per month in one club, which at most two dozen people will attend, and the handful of goth bands (Vals Hedone, VaduvaBOB, Divine Muzak) have mostly dissolved. You say there's bickering and divisiveness in the u.s. goth scene - at least it exists. The elders here they stay at home these days, they don't interact with the new blood. I wish i had access to the kind of community you get in places like NY, their magic tarnished such as it is.
Western Europe was a whole different can of beans to eastern Europe at the time.
I feel like the goth scene is only really alive in big cities in the U.S. (really big cities). The rest is just scattered throughout. For instance, I live in a city with over 200,000 people, but I only know a few other goths. There are tons of metal heads here though, but I have noticed they aren't as nice as they use to be, but that seems to be people in general these days.
I lived in Tampa for 5 years and as soon as you said goth club that's been running for 25 years I thought it's The Castle!
How was it? I never got the chance to go.
Angela Benedict The Castle was always a blast. It’s located in Ybor City in Tampa that consists of a massive strip of clubs and bars so my friends and I would always bounce around from one place to another all night. There was a guy in his 60s who would frequent The Castle and he’d just be wearing his underwear. He was called The Mayor. Lol.
Preach! Awesome video!!!
We need that 90's aura to return
I've watched all of your videos probably like 3 times each. I've been subscribed for quite awhile and I've never made a comment because I don't like social interactions they scare me. But I just wanted to say you're such a beautiful person inside and out. :)
Where I'm from there's hardly any goths. I go to the mall or different places and I get stares. I see noone who is like me. It's a joy to watch your videos.
I enjoy hearing about the scene back then as I was too young (born in 87) to have been able to go to anything like that or have access to one when I was old enough due to being in such a rural area in the South.
Fun times at gothic festival here in Finland... the DJ knew how to make the night fun. We sang along to the popular kid's tv show tune, we sang along to ghengis khan etc. I've never had so much fun in a club.
Love loved this video so much. I do remember the magic in the 90s. Hehe. I love listening to your memories of the past. I paint a picture in my head. It reminds me of me and my friends back in the day and now.In my town I live now I'm a total outcast haha so your videos and others and different podcasts help me feel at home when I can't be in L.A. or Bay Area out at clubs with friends. I like how you put the clip in your video. I like watching old documentaries too. I always scour the web and places to find good docs about gothic subculture. I agree people do need to chill out more and also learn to laugh at themselves. I think it is better to do so and just have fun
I wish there were more goth clubs near me. There used to be a strong goth culture in Toronto in the 90s (before my time), but not so much anymore :(
I'm from the Toronto area too, and I'm planning to reach the Dance Macabre night in April (Check Toronto Goth Facebook Group)
Same feelings here. By the time I became able to go out, TO scene died with a bang. :/
The only person I know interesred in the subculture is my best friend but she'll be about four hours away next year. Hopefully I'll make some friends with similar interests when I start university.
If you're going to a school in downtown you're set.
Jameka Thomas I dont :( my school is in a boring suburb just outside of downtown
One thing that made me distance myself from the subculture years ago was the fact that, like you mentioned, if you didn't eat, breathe, sleep "Goth," you couldn't call yourself Goth. Looking back, I think the main reason I felt this way was due to the fact that I wasn't tied to a specific scene. I had a Goth blog (which I still occasionally update), so my exposure to Goth was on the internet where people can be pharisaical. It got to the point where it felt like a chore to look and be into Goth. At a certain point in college, my focus shifted to other things, and now it feels difficult to come back. I really enjoy the Goth nights in my city, and I light up when a song I know comes on. I have to admit, though, that going can be intimidating since everyone knows one another and I don't know anyone. I don't feel like I'm "with my people" there even though I ought to in many respects.
I always thought goth music was magic, and goth clubs were an escape to a sensual anything goes fantasyland ( as long as its consensual) that i immediately felt like i was with my people and i found a home. Now 20+ plus and after seeing how almost every goth (including you beautiful lady) look so youthful, maybe its the whole staying out of the sun. all i know is your so right. keep it up
thnk u ..... happy new year evey one
I guess I'll have to start going to goth nights again and straighten shit out. \m/
( LOL at the way your bat moves at 10:56 )
Amen, this is SO spot on! It's just not the same😢
You just gained a subscriber. I resonate and deeply feel what you said in this video, and I'm not even into the goth scene. I found you in the comments of a Jenna Marbles video, and i am so happy I did. 👏
If goths judge other goths by anything it’s their taste in music.
Thankyou for this video. I always find your videos helpful in some way.
Dam! i visited the Castle in the mid 90's a few times. Back when there was a large grass feild for parking and no buildings around the Castle....Times have changed there outside and inside big time. When I got back to Tampa in the early 2000's a ton of changes were made in the area. Also inside the Castle there is/was a new room for special events. 2 dance floors, the big one upstairs and the outside patio dance floor next to the bar. Good times.
I had a fake ID too to experience the NYC goth scene. Maybe it is because we grew up in the same area, the same time the same clubs. I can attest that that what she says is the same things I experienced, and we would also change up our style based on the club night/mood/event, and we did plan all week for the event/club night. There was that magic like you say.
Maybe it was partly because goths were so shunned by popular opinions and the club you weren't treated like an outcast. It was outcasts being with their people. Maybe some of that is gone because we aren't really outcasts anymore, which was us as goths enduring and showing people that we should be excepted. This has turned new younger goths to now say goth clothing doesn't need to be part of the scene, and you can be goth without dressing up, or you can be goth without the music. Yet in the 90s goth club scene you would plan your outfit way in advance of the goth night. You and all your friends would decide what to wear and it was important to you. Sometimes you go with your friends to a far away goth night. Get a hotel, do eachothers makeup. You prepped for just one goth event and you couldn't wait to dance to your favorite songs, see your club friends, and also admire everyones outfits.
I feel like there are newer goths that are fine with encouraging others that they don't have do any of that, that they can pick and choose what they feel like doing feom the scene and still be called goth. They are essentially picking apart the scene and trying to make it that everyone has to be included because they want the label without actually embracing what goth is and newer goths calling people elitists because they get worried then they telling people they can be goth while essentially not being goth. We used to look up to older elder goths because they were goth, they were right, they had the real like experience. I have seen a trend where internet goths, and new goths will try and tell people who have been goth for over 2 decades that they aren't goth, or that the 90's goth bands aren't goth. They try to act like they know more than the people who lived it everyday.
I honestly think the encouragement of the lack of dedication to the scene is why that magic is dying. I don't feel there is anything wrong with telling people who either love the music and the scene so you want to be committed to it. It doesn't feel forced and it makes you happy to be committed to it. If being committed to something you love is too much work...maybe you don't love it and maybe you just aren't goth. That isn't a bad thing. We don't need to baby and except every person or we are going to lose the scene itself. We don't have to pander to those who only want to put in enough effort to gain the label of goth and nothing else.
If you love it then it is amazing and fun, and not hard. It makes you happy to be goth, it makes you happy to listen to the music, it makes you happy to make yourself up. If those things feel forced to you in anyway than you probably just aren't goth, and there is no same in that. It isn't some great offense to not be goth. Just because it is all of a sudden some cool and edgy thing to be, doesn't mean someone should try and force themselves to fit goth because if you don't naturally love goth than maybe it's not for you. Back in the 90s goths got hate for being/dressing goth by main media. They weren't getting props, and likes. They were being called freaks, ugly, fags. They got daily harrassment by non goths.
The only people who typically complimented you were other goths. I think this trying to except everyone just because they want the label of goth and the fear of being called an elitist if you don't just pander to peoples needs to be included and gain the title is what is taking away that magic.
Goth wasn't a popularity contest. I would say in my opinion the people in high school who were popular and shunned others for being goth, but now it is popular to be goth, and in the 90's it was popular for girls to look like barbie. So, if the people who are doing it for only the popularity are being blindly excepted, then it will change the scene and the people who are apart of it. There is also too much internet goth experts who mislead people, and too much conflicting information.
If you want to know more about goth and truly experience it. Go out and experience it if you can. Go to a club. The best way to learn is to actually do it like the 80's and 90's goths did. We were teaching ourselves. We didn't couldn't just go online and read things. There is too much misinformation online, and it is too overwhelming. I can tell what is BS and what is truth because I have lived it for about 22 years now.
Angela is a goth youtuber that I can attest to her knowing what she is talking about and because her experiences are very similar to mine and so I know she doesn't BS and she is very straightforward. If I were new to the goth scene I would listen to her because she isn't a fake RUclips. Her responses and posts are very honest, and you can count on her to give you genuine elder goth experiences, which is something more newer goths are likely to make up and act like they just know it all.
Monday- Control Factory
Tuesday- Hack
Wednesday- Helter Skelter
Thursday- Perversion
Friday- Stigmata / Clockwork Orange / Dark Wave 80s
Saturday- Asylum / Sinomatic
Sunday- Velvet / Bar Sinister
Really interesting. I used to live with a lot of goth friends in London in the 90s. I have limited experience of London (UK) goth clubs in the 90s but it definitely matches your experience in the US. I think the scene was different then. But I think possibly sub culture clubs probably were different generally then (not just goth culture). In the UK at least its very hard to open club nights for sub culture groups becuase the rent is so high, its very expensive and you need to generate a lot of money to keep it going. Also the authorities in the UK more easily take away licenses for anything that slightly goes wrong (such as one person caught with drugs as an example). So some of this has been dying over a number of years. And you are so spot on about the 80 vs 90s (and clubs generally across many music cultures still played 80s music alongside). There really was less of a difference from what I saw and understood.
I miss the 90s goth clubs. Ours was on a Sunday night here and i went every Sunday for years. I ended up going back years later and it felt like I never left. I wish they still had that place. Last goth night I went to was a mix between metal and more modern music. I remember the "kinderbats" (that's what we called the young ones) that I was with complained when anything old came on but I was like "finally"
im 22 now and only one club in my entire city has a goth night and even then its not a regular weekly thing. its crazy how even with the internet its even less community nowadays