It's actually disgusting. How are we to believe anything that comes out of his mouth when he simultaneously claims bigness and littleness? He needs to address this immediately.
Why should we bother to reply to Joel? He would reply to us and we would have to reply to his reply. There's no end to that. It would be quite enough for us to announce that Joel is a traitor to the working class, and everyone will understand everything- Vladimir Lenin
and, likewise, Vaush doesn't make his response to Big Joel some variation of a "The Essay Bro Problem" essay or whatever the term is The ideal back-and-forth here are continuous videos whose titles are some variation of "The (Debate/Essay) Bro Problem", either directly discussing the other person's points in the previous video out of context, or vaguely alluding to them in their analogies
@@Ass_of_Amalek I heard they hired a CIA barber to cut it off but he was such a Chad it grew right back and the barber quit to become a sugarcane farmer.
On the contrary, you must grow your beard out thricefold to triple your leftist power. Everyone knows the real leftists have immaculate facial hair, unlike that loser Marx
The only reason I was able to find Vaush is because I typed in Men's rights in YT and he had a video where he genuinely cared about men ( he also had a video response to Thomas Sowel) and now here I am removed from the red pilled rabbit hole..... Thanks 👍🏾 👍🏾🇺🇸
So if Vaush didn't happen to have a video on the specific topic that you searched for that the YT algorithm suggested, you'd have a total opposite worldview? You really think that is a strong selling point? The last thing I looked up was how to fix my washing machine, but there was no Vaush video about it. Guess I'll keep my same political beliefs.
If this doesn't end with a screen full of little vaush react-windows completely covering the original video while voosh reacts to Joel's reaction to his 10th reaction to a reaction I will be very disappointed
I love big Joel so much. He’s like one of the only Lefttubers to actually respond to vaush without Turning it into a brain dead video about debate bros being bad.
Yeah, I think even if you disagree with his points he comes at Vaush with respect and good faith. Which we need more of in the online left--we don't benefit from infighting, we literally never do.
@@gabriellegoodwin4422 Vaush's constant gatekeeping is a huge problem, though. Any personal critic of his he dismisses as either a "tankie" or insane and therefore not a valid leftist voice.
@prageruwu69 I Have A Bad Habit Of Stealing Other Ppl's Playlists So Thanks For The Breadtube/Leftist Playlist!😊 Hopefully I'll Find Some Stuff I Have Yet To See Before.😬
@prageruwu69 Btw Do You Like/Listen To Dorian Electra? Idk Just Looking At Some Of Your Playlists & Stuff Made Me Think Of The Song 'My Agenda' By Dorian Electra. I Feel Like You Might Dig Them If You Haven't Checked Out Their Stuff Before, Although I Feel Like To Really Understand The References Made In Their Songs; You'd Have To Be Pretty Familiar/Knowledgeable Of Internet (/Internet Political Sphere) Culture/Lore.. Like The Songs 'Edgelord' & 'Gentleman/M'Lady' For Example Might Be A Tad Confusing If You Have No Awareness Of The Meme-ing At Play Lolol. Anywho; Sorry For The Randomness, I Think It's Just Cuz 'My Agenda' Has Been Stuck In My Head For Days Now & Anytime I See Anything LGBTQIA Related; It Just Starts Playing In My Mind.🤣🤣
These reach out to men/boys, anti-blackpill S-teir takes are the kind of things I wish I'd encountered 15 years ago when I had my head full up my backside. I really hope Vaush can keep up the good work
@@MindForgedManacle I have the ability to shake exactly two aspirin from a bottle, to instantly find the cut on a roll of packing tape, and the power to calm jittery squirrels. Despite these powers my application to the Justice League was rejected. (And yet Hawkman, supposedly, is eminently qualified. 👺👺👺 )
Andrew Tate getting this popular for talking about masculinity is really all the proof you need. Noone sits and listens to some dude talk about what is and isn't masculine for hours unless they are deeply insecure about their own masculinity.
Sorry I meant to nitpick a point your point for clarity and ended up stumbling upon why I think it’s such a big deal so concretely, it’s mysandry but in a specific patriarchal way that is quite similar to terf discourse. Anyway… It’s a big deal, talking about masculinity or wanting affirmation are not inherently bad. It is instead that most people willing to talking about it are closet nazis(Jordan Peterson and right wing establishment) or mysoginist rapist pigs (Andrew tate and much of the manosphere) Vaush having the ability to do so and regularly is something good people who are left leaning need to do more of. The entire trans discourse is about gender identity. Feminism is one of the most important cultural movements of the past 1000 years and a lot of it is women ranting about being women. The idea that men would be exempt from this desire to be affirmed as they see themselves, to be alleviated of societal pressure or to find ways to assuage them. I think not caring about this discourse is an offshoot nearest to the terf offshoot. It relies on buying into mysoginy so deeply that patriarchy has trained one to see men as emotionless, violent and rational in their evil. This assumption makes it just as easy to dismiss trans women as it is to dismiss men.
Also explains why so much of Taint's audience is so young. When you're going through the throes of puberty, insecurity isn't a bug, it's a feature. So, manosphere scammers see these ripe and awkward moneybags--err boys, and gives them easy answers to hard questions and these literal kids eat this up.
@@markusa5293 A meme of a scientist saying “I do not know is SpongeBob is dead or alive until I look inside this box” and SpongeBob says “I make krabby patties” and he responds “shut up”, all in a really shitty audio
"Sharing these feelings with actual humans your age around you is a lot healthier than going online to find whoever's making the most money off of lying to you." Damn that's a spicy quote.
Goddamn, vaush manages to say my insecurities out loud like no one else. It’s cathartic. Sheer utter terror of being a creep or threatening or of wasting their time when they aren’t interested
Out of curiosity, if a het trans guy were to make videos about subjects like that, do you think cis het guys would listen? Living most of my life as fem presenting and having had many bad experiences, I feel I can offer other guys a lot of advice on subjects like that. Especially since I'm really familiar with feeling emasculated and the fear of feeling that way lol
@@Dekubud I'm not super afraid of being emasculated, personally. My far bigger fears are having my existence reduced to "creepy guy" or "threat" when I try and act on my deep desires for intimacy. Basically it drives me to never try to express my sexual or romantic desires ever, and it's rough. I'm sure there's plenty of cis men, young and old, who have deep fears of emasculation though, and so long as you come to the conversation with plenty of compassion your perspective would be worthwhile for them! edit: cis men, not necessarily het, brain tired
@@mousefire777 Which is an issue when we talk about how it's lonely and isolated men (either literally or figuratively) that end up committing violence. So what we have is a endless cycle of isolating men for violence, leading to isolated men committing violence. So it's nice that Vaush is sticking to this. It's the right thing to do. Caring about men and their struggles is the right thing both morally and politically.
@@RJCain I think you're overstating things a bit. Remember, everyone's getting isolated. That's capitalism, we're having a breakdown of community. I don't think leftists being unnecessarily cold to young men directly leads to violence, except maybe on the margins. It mostly just leads a proportion of young men to be pulled more easily to the right. Not saying it isn't good to care about men's issues. We do statistically face unique issues that should be addressed be the left, since the right is just gonna fuck us. I totally agree with your last sentence
@mousefire777 The problem is that you say you want intimacy and then you talk about expressing your sexual and romantic desires. To most women those are not what they consider to be intimacy, and they strongly do not want a man, especially a stranger, to express those things to them in any way. Trust and emotional attunement to thier needs is what they consider as intimacy, and in general is the precursor to feeling romantic and sexual attraction.
Joel responding in RUclips chat to Vaush responding to Joel responding to Vaush responding to Joel was truly one of the moments of all time Edit: oh and I forgot Vaush was responding to Joel in RUclips chat lol
Im not sure why Big Joel says that there isn't a massive demand for self help style content among young men, when that's a huge part of how both Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson grew their followings. Still love Big and Little Joel though, let's keep this react train rolling until each video is 24 hours long
Exactly. Peterson is jut bad self help, average self help, and Christian Conservatism (plus woo). People aren't drawn to him because they want to be regressive. The self help draws them in.
Because of their self-help or because of their reactionary politics? It's easier to sell reactionary politics. You don't have to really educate people or ask them to self-reflect or self-critique. You can just say, "hey, you see those people? They suck! Let's hate on them together!"
I think this fear of being called creepy is also a thing because there is a subconscious realization that women experience a lot creepy guys and they don’t want to be that guy. They want to be “one of the good ones”.
Well sure, it can be both fear of being unintentionally creepy, and fear of being unfairly misperceived as creepy. There's more than one way to fall off a bicycle, and neither the senders nor the receivers of social cues ever have anything close to prefect perception.
@@hadronoftheseus8829 true. I just think we need to address this “women will label anything creepy” message. Yes some women are unreasonable, and some are hypersensitive/hyper vigilant, and some are just awful man haters. But that isn’t the norm. All you can do in any interaction is do your best to read reactions, give outs/check in with other person. I just think this “women will call anything creepy” harkens back to the Gamergate -Elevator gate discourse. Where sympathy for the man rejected (understandable) overwhelmed ability to empathize with the woman. The right isn’t telling these young men is how to get a meaningful relationship, or find happiness. It isn’t even pretending to. The grift the right is running is ancient: find angry or fearful young people, give them a target, promise them reward. It is telling these young men hey you have trouble empathizing with others? No problem Here is “woke” it is the source of all your problems, come fight the left for us and we will reward you. Reward varies but is often wealth and power, alluding that this is how one achieves happiness. Of course this sells with teen boys they are still growing their prefrontal cortex and awash in hormones! They struggle with empathy because their brain is literally building that part. (Right targets girls with Evangelicals and Purity Culture as preteens because the window for opportunity with girls is narrower puberty stabilizing earlier) The left doesn’t have an easy sell, and won’t stoop to false promises. One thing the left should work on is rewards. Show how doing good and making the world better, while difficult, is rewarding and makes people happy and fulfilled.
@@LizStaples appreciate the effort of your post and agree with the right vs left bit, but you just made Hadron's point, turning what he said into " women will label anything creepy". That is a wild way to interpret or a wild way to respond to what he said. I think you might be giving women at large a little bit too much credit as well. I'm thinking young women and using the word to insult or make fun of/ostracize.They are humans and have an incredible capacity for being shitty like men. That doesn't mean women don't experience creeps, both can be true.
@@delneus I agreed with Hadron right out the gate! Also “women will label anything as creepy” is referring to the video and Vaush’s words. How someone is indoctrinated into a Cult - be it Alt right, religious, or an MLM Step 1 tell person that ONLY their personal fears are valid; that anyone else claiming fear or even provable harm is delusional or malicious. In group vs out group thinking -{This cuts to exactly why the right is focusing on teen boys and we are seeing the issues within that demographic) Step 2 inflate fears, reinforce any negative imagined outcomes as a given, this will create crippling affect and keep person from attempting interaction outside the ingroup {This is the step Vaush is focusing on which is good but I don’t think on its own can be effective as root of disordered thinking remains} Step 3 utilize compounding factors to solidify control (late stage capitalism, geo politics, cultural panics) { This is where left has solid footing and fights back best but again this is rarely enough on its own} And 4 tada 🎉 congratulations you have a steerable herd of angry isolated people. I’m not arguing that fears of young men are invalid! I simply think that any claim there is a sudden shift and rash of women unfairly ostracizing men is unfounded red pill logic and sus at best.
Will you guys just get together and have a really fun, friendly stream together already? It’d be a great show and you guys can finally just directly understand each other
@identikit I mean in a sense that you wouldn't really mistake Joel as liking Vaush in that video, it was pure business in addressing his arguments as opposition. Not to say he was demonzing or belittling Vaush or anything it was just not going to offend any Vaush haters.
@@excalibur2772 yeah for real, Joel can’t exactly pal around with Vaush on stream without getting knocked right out of his posh Sarah Z/folding ideas lane. The sacrifice of Lindsay Ellis definitely shook these guys.
Dude when I’m lifeguarding and I have literal 9 year olds asking me if I like Andrew Tate it’s pretty easy to tell that the popularity of figures like him is not chiefly a conscious one
I don’t know about anyone else but I’m just gonna tell my little story here. Vaush has probably been the most positive role model I’ve ever had. I’ve always been a pretty timid person, I kept to myself, went to work, and did well in school, but I was getting really disheartened. I had no real relationships beyond a couple friends from school and was very afraid of branching out and talking to anyone else. When I started watching Vaush, I saw myself in him. When I watched him debate, I’d hear him say the things I wanted to say and mop the floor with people I hated. He gave me the confidence to unapologetically be who I am. His advice, even at its most basic, genuinely helped me out of a really tough spot. I got my shit together, lost a lot of weight, and met a ton of new people this year. I even got a girlfriend, something I was ready to accept would never happen for me. I don’t care what anyone says about Vaush, he played a pivotal role in saving me from myself. Thanks, Vaush.
I gotta say, I love listening to Vaush, too. He seems to genuinely care about his audience, and the world in general. I appreciate his quiet, thoughtful words, and his obvious respect for females and other minorities. Very inclusive. Sam Seder is the same, they operate from a place of respect for all until a person turns Nazball. We girls do like to feel respected, gotta say it. Kind of a human thing; and a man who can show genuine respect for women deserves all the blow jobs his grateful girlfriend can orally perform. You know, the kind of b.j. that could strip the paint off a fender and make you see god, but without the teeth. Respect me... Enjoy that. Very simple, imo. Vaush is sanity In a world of Tate and Crowder types.
not to traumadump but near the end when someone mentioned this is how abusers think and vaush applied the same thought process to them - youre so right. every time my stinky dad was abusive he claimed he was a victim, and only defending himself. maybe this simplifies it too much but i think the motivation does apply to abusers so well. they never think theyre abusive, do they?
I can't help but remember the prevalence of anti-sjw content way back when when considering the motivations for moving rightward. Everywhere I looked there was content saying how horrible the left was for white straight males like me, and it took years and an open mind to find my way back here. Even then, it's mostly by circumstance. With unfortunate youtube recommendations or a more radical environment irl, I wouldn't be shocked if I would have become someone I would find abhorrent with the perspective I have now.
I vaguely remember those days. The sjw stuff still bugs me now and again, but I do mainly care about the economic side of things rather than the sociological ones. And yes I do know how the 2 can interact, but its the more universal policies I go for. A lefty who doesn't touch on "sjw" issues as much as economic ones might be a good bridge to get some people away from the right
Lmao. Imagine if Vaush refused to do any more debates and his whole channel was just catty response videos. He'd hit 2 million subs in less than a year.
i think what joel’s fucking up is that he thinks that men are knowing of the fact they’re perceived as better than women, but in reality they don’t. a lot of men look at things happening in their personal lives and then look at the societal fact that they have it better and think “this doesn’t apply to me at all, i need more.” which then leads into watching manosphere type content and then adopting far right ideas from that
tldr: men are feeling entitled to more cuz they feel that they’re lacking something and end up falling into manosphere content in hopes of getting more
I swear every single comment here about what Joel's position supposedly is would add up to about three hours of content and it's weird how y'all are getting that from two ten minutes or so videos. Oh wait, no it's not, it just means Vaush spent three hours strawmanning him. Lol.
I really like these longer lecture-esque videos/segments, especially when they're on social conditions and issues that a lot of people are either actively dealing with or can otherwise relate to. I think they can be really good teaching tools for people either getting into leftism or just trying to start examining the world they live in more critically.
Also it's not about the specifics; it's about treating cis guys and their issues with comparable warmth and understanding as the issues of women and queer folk.
@@eldritchtourist yeah, I notice it in a lot of transmasc spaces, where trans men end up feeling alienated from broader queer and feminist spaces because they're suddenly treated as the enemy compared to their experiences when they were presenting more femininely.
That sounds like liberal color blindness to me. I believe in improving society, not in upholding an abstract ideal of equality. Last week Vaush was talking about an upcoming g3n0cide against trans people, but now suddenly we are supposed to treat the "issues" of straight men as equally important that he literally said were trivial in this video?
As someone who just got out of a rather conservative high school, Vaush is a lot more right than people give him credit for. Young people really do seek out self help and then get sucked into the far right through listening to conservatives' advice, and then watching more political videos of theirs.
i don't really agree with Joel on this issue, but the end of that video was chef's kiss perfection. "I hope you agree with me and never challenge me again. Bye."
I'm going 2 keep this short cause on mobile. A few years back I was mentally in the worst place I'd been and emotionally 2. So I started to look into self help and trying to get my life in order, it started out good but over time I went into channels like huMAN, strong successful male (I think that's the name), and eventually fresh and fit (plus other channels). Looking back it was all emotionally driven content that feed on my week self image and amplified personal experiences. Eventually I cam across a video that countered fresh and fit with actual logical discussion, this got me actualthinking about that content and looking at it with reason I saw so many flaws in the content I had been watching. I regret going down that rabbit hole as it goes against who I naturally am, but I got brainwashed without even realising. That's my story, and I hope it shows how easy this shit can happen.
@@zacheryeckard3051 I will have 2 find it. I think it might have been Abba and preach. But not sure, would have to go back, but I do know it was a video specifically talking about them and maybe a few other mentions.
I haven't gotten all the way through it, but it feels like if Vaush would clarify by saying "Talking about young men's issues and providing leftist spaces with genuinely helpful and applicable advice will not single handily move them towards the left, but it WILL give us the opportunity and room to introduce leftist thinking and help close the vulnerabilities men have that helps them along the path to the alt/far right."
@@woobiefuntime We don't need to work "with" the right on this at all, unless you mean that some of the people who will be drawn into it will be right wingers. Our goal here is to replace the right as much as we can, and in turn provide a more positive masculinity, not work with them.
I also think a big point is that young men want to look up to other men. Especially those without great father figures in their lives and thats not necessarily cause they are inherently sexist but want to grow up to be those people. Like I also looked up to my sister but I felt I could never be like her. Whereas my cousin was a more realistic goal and for a lot of my childhood i looked up to him
I agree with vaush here, young men don't get into misogyny because they want it. But Joel is treating it like vaush is saying that once they are into misogyny they innocent victims who hate women because they have no choice.
Many do want to. It’s a desired that’s instilled by our society since birth. So instilled it’s not even conscious, which is why it’s hard to even correct
@@claymusicoff5663 'It’s a desired that’s instilled by our society since birth. So instilled it’s not even conscious' I hear it over and over. So how does that work, this instillation exactly? What are the inevitable particles of it that mindset that are implanted in all men's minds since birth whether they are raised by traditional families, non-religious ones, conservative, liberal, left-leaning, single fathers, single mothers, father and mother, two fathers, two mothers etc.?
@@blinski1 Everywhere actually. If you're post 12 and still haven't dated anyone, there's something "wrong" with you. If you're out of shape, you're "lazy" and "nobody would love you". The guys always get the girls in all media, from children's books to blockbuster movies. If you don't have a S.O. by 30, you're a "loser". Heck, approach any person & make a mistake and now you're just "creepy". Current society atomizes the individual and then pretends that talking about it is what creates issues.
I don't think the self help genre is terrible because self help is inherently bad, I think it is because of the Dunning Kruger effect. People like Joel might not be the best at offering advice but they are better than what is out there because people like him are smart enough to know they aren't perfect so they stay out of it. Imagine a world where there were a dozen or so Petersons and Tates but a hundred Big Joels. It wouldn't be perfect, might not even be good, but it would be objectively better right? If you let the losers dominate the market then of course the market will be fucked up.
this is why vaush being a youtuber is a W. Unlike a lot of youtubers he has IRL rizz and if not great at being a good role model, he's very good at expressing what he's learned.
Big Joel is great, I really love the way he was engaging with Vaush's arguments. It seems like they may still disagree, but it also seems like he was genuinely listening and thinking about what Vaush had to say.
I've listened to Vaush and Joel in this subject. I am of the opinion that Joel doesn't actually know very many people who are like this, not personally. I'm a lefty and I'm in a relationship with a person who studies the role of gender in politics, but I have worked a lot of blue collar rural based jobs and I've gotten to know my crewmates pretty well. I do believe some narrative that men are under attack is being fed to these guys by bad actors, people who I can't fathom actually believe what they preach. This gives false reason, but reason nonetheless to the fears, anxieties, economic disparities etc. That these men or boys are experiencing. They lack maturity (especially the adults) and critical thought, and they fall for it. It seems to me like vaush is listening to these other people more than Joel. Joel sounds like my spouse's colleagues who have never had any real conversations with these lost boys. I think the cure is prevention. Teaching critical thinking and having decent mentorship to teach emotional maturity, logic, critical thinking and empathy. Leaving boys to figure it out on their own is like leaving it up to a lottery that is being rigged by the right. Being a successful mentor does begin with just listening and trying to get to the bottom of the behaviours and opinions even if you don't want to hear the preamble. Something the experts usually fail to do.
I think a good way of examining the overall problem Vaush is trying to point to is this: Feminism as a movement arose as opposition to the traditional gender role(s), norms, and expectations that were assigned to women (ie, be beautiful, be silent, obey your husband, be the sole caretaker of the kids and homestead, etc etc you all know the drill). Such gender expectations are, in a nutshell, unreasonable and unrealistic. I think just about everyone on the left with a decent amount of knowledge on the subject under their belt knows this. These expectations weren't anything strictly codified, per se, or even genetically intrinsic to women, but rather imposed (subtly or otherwise) by existing society, who in turn had THEIR expectations imposed on them by the previous society/generation, and so on and so forth. We are now in a day and age where we have the presence of mind to perform a meta-examination of such gender norms for women and are learning just how arbitrary and harmful they are. The thing is, men have their own set of gender expectations that have been imposed upon them in the much the same way as women; they just look different. Men need to "be manly", with that being defined differently each generation but generally involving some degree of independence (usually financially, but also in other domains), being physically strong and emotionally invulnerable, have sex with beautiful women, etc... If you're paying attention while reading, though, you'll notice 2 things: 1) these gender expectations for men are just as difficult/harmful/stressful to realistically conform to for men as the gender expectations for women are for women (This is the CORE issue), and 2) these male expectations incidentally confer a greater deal of social power to men than the female expectations do for women. Whether this second point is by design or emergent from millennia of human civilization is another discussion altogether. Both of those components are important to understand if you want to get a more complete grasp of the picture. Twitter lefties, however, tend to only focus on the second component, as well as the associated fascistic consequences from it. What Vaush is trying to draw attention to is the *first* component (without detracting from the second because it's still very much true), because it's that first component that's the core problem and what's actually causing many of the mental health problems many young men and incels are facing, rather than a threat to the second component (as Twitter lefties seem to think). Men and women both face the same core gender expectation problem, it just *looks* different for each because of the emergent consequences that we have to deal with every day. While the Left understands the intricacies of the problem as it pertains to women (ie the left understands components 1 & 2 and knows to correctly systematically dismantle both), they've decidedly ignored its manifestation in men while the Right hasn't. The thing is, as with much of what the Right does, they fail to fully understand the problem as well and provide a (politically advantageous) solution to these men that end up making the overall problem worse - that is the Right is reinforcing the first component (ie be stereotypically manly), which doesn't solve the core problem but still gets these men on their side, incidentally reinforces the second component, and consequently gives them more raw political power. What Vaush is trying so desperately to tell everyone (and I find it incredibly frustrating that he's having such a hard time getting people to understand this), is that the Left needs to ALSO address the first component of the gender expectation problem in men, except give them an actual solution to their problem that the Right only wants to perpetuate. When an incel says something like "women owe me sex!", the Right responds with "Yeah, women DO owe you sex!" while the Left responds with "Ew, no one owes you shit, go away." The Right validates their feelings, doesn't actually solve the problem in a healthy way and in fact makes the problem worse, and gets them on their side to use for political purposes. Meanwhile the Left invalidates their feelings and tosses them aside. AKA, the Right gets more political power by default and the Left makes things harder for itself. Instead, the Left can respond with "Hey, I get that you feel that way. Everything in society is telling you that you need to 'fuck bitches and get money,' and I know it's disappointing that these expectations can just seem so big and impossible and out of reach. That's because, for the most part, they are, and you'll probably drive yourself crazy trying to meet them. The thing is, women don't owe you sex any more than any random stranger owes you anything. And yeah, it's frustrating that your biology is flooding your mind with all these sexual feelings and desires and you're having a hard time fulfilling them, but if you're patient with yourself and with the people you encounter, I can assure you that you'll fulfill them eventually. In the mean-time, here's some coping strategies and other resources to help you with your feelings. If you feel a need to talk about them more, there's a community over here you can go to and they'll be happy to engage with you and talk about it. Respect others, respect yourself, and in time, you'll figure out what it means for you to be a man that's much healthier than the version that was slapped together by our more ignorant predecessors." It's harder than what the Right has to do. A LOT harder. It involves showing compassion and empathy toward people you're 99% sure would never do the same for you unprompted. But if we're trying to build a better world for everyone to live in, well... As the saying goes, nothing worth doing is ever easy.
Despite not agreeing with either, I've really enjoyed how good faith this back and forth has been. So refreshing compared to how these things usually go, and both people are making thoughtful points.
Joel is one of the only people who engages with Vaush on fair terms like this when they have a disagreement and I think everyone who does disagree with Vaush should examine how he does and strive to be like him in that way
@@treegrilld my main thing is that I don't think talking about men's issues will actually convince the people that buy into the Tate thing, it's not like anti-SJWs where they'll respond to facts and logic if you make the right argument, manosphere guys just have too easy answers and young people are too gullible. I think it's more effective to try and instill empathy for others, instead of reaching out with sympathy for themselves. Still, like I said both make good points that dispute my view, and I can easily change my mind in the future from lived experiences.
40:45 Getting past the political and trying to connect at a personal level has been something the left has always been terrible at. It's a big reason why we lose arguments that should be easy wins. If you can't connect with a person regarding things they deal with on a day to day basis, you'll have a much harder time connecting politically. That's not to say we should be the "Best Bud Brigade", but this focus on political ideas is why many people see the left as aloof, if not downright alien.
i realised during thia discussion how weird it is that conservatism prescribes feminism as a ruinous force to the family but also to individual single men. men have the free, legal liberty to leave mariages whenever they want but so many men still choose to murder their spouse and/or kids than engage in that right. unlike qhen a woman kills an abuser or a husband when she has no right to leave (prior to legal divorce or the ability to have her own money and property). but women are still repeatedly framed as antagonists to men's liberty and wellbeing, and even to the righteous american nuclear family. BIZARRE
Vaush the huge problem with your discussion of the matter is your solution. You correctly identify that men not getting laid begins causing their frustration, and your solution is to tell them leftist advice on how to be better at it. The solution is to tell men that sex is not what they need to be happy. Leftist advice for men should unironically be "you are Kenough" from Barbie.
I completely agree with what Vaush says about young male insecurity being a large factor in their push to the right. I often look back and can see how one or two changes could have pushed me to that side.
I see this as the same as debate streamers and video essayists: even if something won't solve the problem by itself, every little bit helps. Also, I've argued with my conservative parents for years, think about 15 or so at this point, and they are absolutely ruled by insecurity and fear. Every argument we have is about them being afraid of something, obviously something ridiculous like parents "forcing their kids to be trans," but fear nonetheless.
thank you to you both. Ive been searching for conversations like this from white men for at least the past 10 years since I came to consciousness via Judith Butler's gender performativity. thank you for talking about this.
I literally lost twitter art mutuals when I agreed with Vaush on this one. It fascinates me that leftists are so willing to cancel eachother for super petty reasons but still, the idea that the online left can have a problem is so offensive to the same people.
It's much like "American Diabolism" being the opposite of American Exceptionalism. It becomes more about being against what has been deemed as the enemy then it is being right. And it's a hell of a lot easier to feel someone is your *enemy* if you believe they're badwrong on a deep, fundamental level. Essentialization is easy, because it can serve to resolve what would otherwise be cognitive dissonance
That is because you agreed on a misogynistic take. Some people just don‘t want to be exposed to that. That‘s a personal thing, not a political one. You‘re missing the point here.
I’ve struggled with, and still struggle, with extreme social anxiety and insecurity. I never managed to fall down any pipeline though, probably because I had leftist parents lol. But also I was never angry at the world for my mental health issues, I struggled more with self hatred. I was an edgy white boy so I got a lot of school shooter jokes made about me, so I would say, “I’m more the type to kill my self than anyone else.” Lmao.
While it’s true that many left wing people think just mocking men is perfectly acceptable, people (men included)were going alt right long before we had anywhere near the level of progressivism we have today. So I think more blame goes towards the right being at fault than the left.
the argument is that we need to take up space in what the right is using to indoctrinate to ..... well get in the way of them doing it instead of right wingers getting them for free as it were
i don’t think it’s about “more blame” or anything, of course the right is more at fault. The bigger thing is that the left is somewhat culpable and not willing to admit it, when they could be actively countering the harm done by the right
The thing is that intended or not, that type of view seems to be uncharacteristically essentialist from the left, and fails to recognize that the left has been lacking in offering an alternative or addressing the issue besides sneering at it.
Before we had anywhere near the level of progressivism we have today... I think that's your answer right there. By progressivism you may be referring to scum manifesto level progressivism, but that can also mean actually being present to counter alt right arguments. Having been on yt since 2006, I can tell you that basically the only content available on here WAS anti-SJW content. Skeptictube was a very, very powerful force. So, I want to be clear: left representation and outreach is a huge factor in creating the kinds of spaces it wants to create.
While true, that doesn't mean the left can't or shouldn't be better. Just because someone is worse than you doesn't mean you have an excuse to not be better.
It's kinda weird that Joel keeps saying "The patriachy produces people who beleive X" without explaining how it isntills those beleifs in people. It's not just an ever present force in the universe, it's a system of beleifs and behaviors that are taught and reinforced.
Usually it’s instilled from an early age from the parents, media and society around them. So the idea that leftist could really do much in the way stopping it from happening is pretty wrong
Yes but I think the critique he's making is that those systemic forces far outweigh whatever advice an internet streamer can give to a population of people and that blaming the left whole cloth for failing to counteract that weight is very short-sighted
@@deepakjetly1717Yes, but how did these people become so grounded in their views, so unwilling to change their minds? A good bit of it comes from childhood experience with family, friends, etc. But I feel like a significant portion of this group got to where they are from JBP, from Ben Shapiro, from these right wing political pundits who also give out advice. I fear Tate has pushed many more down this road. But we can get to these people before they get to that point.
I mean, on some level the answer here could be "how to deal with your gender" at least in attitude; I think the left at least should recognize that gender enforcement is a problem.
Vaush’s point about self help content for guys and girls stuck with me. bestdressed stopped posting on youtube a while ago but i remember watching her and going from shoe collection and thrifting clothes to talking about first jobs and advice on dating. And then i remembered my ex who got into weightlifting and his feed went from normal self help stuff to,,,really bad takes on mental health and relationships, he eventually got into the andrew tate shit and that relationship is most definitely over
The left should have a monopoly on self help. Period. That's the point Sid and Vaush are making. Anyone disagreeing with that are more interested in aggrievement than they are actually helping anyone. The advice to young men should be "get better rizz game bro, get a haircut" not "join the DSA and get involved in politics" there's nothing wrong with that at all, it's actually a good thing. But it doesn't fix the underlying problems.
This is pretty brain dead. What does “the left should have a monopoly” on self hel even mean?? The Left should have a monopoly on votes. But hey look at that, that’s not how the works works. And “self help” is mostly reflective of the society and community you’re already in. If you live in a right leaning, religious, capitalist society it’s going to produce that kind of self help. And when it comes to the online space, there’s not enough leftist. Not everyone can talk about self help and advice. A lot of content creators and fans aren’t even in that position to even pretend. This is why this is meaningless. Vaush self help in asking people out and being confident exist everywhere. Spend 10 minutes in the bookstore self help section you’ll see the comment is there. Idk look into any leftist movement that has managed to do something. None of them grew, or were started out by self help gurus.
...or, some of us believe that mixing therapy with political punditry is inherently unethical, especially if we're not in any way mental health professionals. It disturbs me how people just see the chance to advance power and no other concerns.
@@claymusicoff5663 That's a very long way to say "I do not know what a prescriptive statement is". Also, you know what those leftist movements that did stuff did? Outreach. They didn't discard possible audiences because "wtf not every leftist can appeal to those people, I guess we have nothing to offer them".
This was a pretty decent response by Vaush. However he failed to address some key points by Little Big Joel. Namely, how does the exploitation of Oompa Loompas factor into the effects of Patriarchy on men?
01:09:24 the reason why tradwife mentality is not so effective in turning women far right because the left DOES offer an alternative for women to become empowered and it has been doing it for the last couple of years. We really need to construct a better version of masculinity, but at least in my LGBT+ circles, there's still lots of man-hate, bi fobia, straight and cis hate (ironically but not really). Im a trans woman btw This discourse is sooooo tiring and it ALL comes from insecurities. 2023 is here people, get real, man hate is out, sarcastic overconfidence is in
As trans man, I had this really insecure period where I was deep in misogyny. But once I worked out I was really just hating being forced into womanhood, those insecurities were tackled. I'm no longer like that. Thankfully, I was already very lefty in other ways, so I never traveled into more conservatism.
From the direction of Vaush's point of view, young men can be helped, "saved", and right wing ideas aiming for such victimes can be intercepted by the left. From the direction of Joel's point of view, some young men are just lost, and are destined right wingers. Joel gives up on people, while Vaush is hopeful. Let's all hope Vaush is right.
I wouldn't grant it entirely to Vaush, but it was definitely him and people like him that unalienated girls from me and had me discover that I'm myself a girl. Yes, the mindsets exposed to young boys do have an impact on how they process their experiences and how to work to change them.
Vaush should 100% try to get the Charisma on Command guys on for a talk/debate. I feel like those dudes have some of the least toxic advice for young insecure men online.
@@kukurhuza oh okay, I’m kind of curious how that went. I always did get the vibe that their politics were pretty questionable despite giving generally pretty decent advice on how to get by.
@@ianwazowski5607 most of what I’ve seen on that channel doesn’t come off as misogynistic. It’s certainly myopically focused on the wants of men, so I can absolutely see how misogyny would creep in there. (I haven’t looked at them in over a year now, so they could have nose dove). Either way, they’ve got a fair following of insecure and vulnerable young men, the fact that they’re not selling an overtly horrible perspective is at least a positive starting point for those kids.
Also isn't a bit playing into the "men must be stoic and solitary" patriarchal standard by saying that men should not need to get advice on things? Believing men should just grow up and become a leftist, unaided, while being excluded from discussion (or brought in to discussion to be a punching bag), regardless of their environment, is itself a patriarchal train of thought.
Yup, I like Joel but his points on this subject were just frankly bad. Bless his heart, but I don't think Joel realizez how smart and educationally privileged he actually is (that's not a bad thing If you account for it). I think he just think people couldn't be so stupid. They HAVE to he rationally weighing their privilege like he is. Which is why he seems to not be able to believe the concept many of these people do it out of fear ,insecurity and ignorance.
As a trans man I was moved to stay in the center and even started leaning right in some places when younger because I didn’t feel welcomed as a man on the left I had to out myself often to have opinions on certain things because a man can’t talk on a certain thing or I was told I was a bad person for how I sat down on a train and the right were the people saying hey that doesn’t make you a bad person and were the places giving advice
The ideas that sexism is appealing to men due to the material benefits it confers onto them and that they are manipulated into being attracted to these benefits due to their insecurities are not incommensurate. Both are in play to varying degrees all the time.
I need a map to help me keep track of all the characters in this, one minute its old vaush then its new joel then its old joel then its new vaush and then all of a sudden youtube chat joel appears
around 3 years ago, i got dumped by someone i really liked. i was distraught, i wanted to do anything to get them back, romantic attraction is rare for me and i was terrified that id never find someone again (a stupid thought, but hey i was 16). i went online to try to find something, anything, any bit of advice i could use to get them to love me again. and i found one of those self help sites, a "get any woman to fall for you with this one simple trick" type ones i was right wing at the time already, my morals werent the best, but thankfully ive been through enough abusive relationships to realize that the site was just telling you to abuse someone and make them depend on you. if i didnt have that experience, if i didnt see the red flags, i couldve gone down a pretty rough path. the right pays insane amounts of money to target young men, and the left needs to combat this with as much vigor as they combat other issues the only reason im leftwing in the first place is because of vaush, i found one of his videos on a pro lgbt tiktok comp, the first debate against the inseminator, and i found him entertaining. before vaush, i unironically watched crowder because my dad did, and i thought he was right about all his right wing bullshit. but compared to vaush, he wasnt as entertaining. you cant just say the ideas, you have to sell them, bringing people over to the left has always been like this and its a little infuriating to see people act otherwise
Yes Jordan Peterson's self help advice aimed at men is bs, isn't that the point? Jordan Peterson grew in popularity by filling a niche, advice aimed towards men. There is an audience there, clearly. Self help aimed at men is right dominated, which allows the right to exploit insecurity in order to spread misinformation and ideology. You cannot raise mens issues in left wing spheres without a battle and long drawn out debate about, or cries that mens issues should take a back seat to every other social issue. This combative attitude inevitably drives some young men away, into spheres they feel take their issues seriously, and the right wing capitalizes on that.
![Eminem - Fuel (feat. JID) [Official Lyric Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/t5H_CewqpKA/mqdefault.jpg)
I can't stand Joel. I mean, he describes himself as big, and then he turns around and says "oh, I'm little now." Which is it Joel? Indecisive af.
It's actually disgusting. How are we to believe anything that comes out of his mouth when he simultaneously claims bigness and littleness? He needs to address this immediately.
rip bladee rip ripsquadd
They're actually two different Joels, m'kay? Do better and get it right next time, smh my head 😠
@@titaniawallace4223 out of his big mouth? out of his little mouth? who knows anymore?
He resides on Little Big Planet?
Why should we bother to reply to Joel? He would reply to us and we would have to reply to his reply. There's no end to that. It would be quite enough for us to announce that Joel is a traitor to the working class, and everyone will understand everything- Vladimir Lenin
Found the real leftist
Damn, I can't believe Lenin already disproved Joel 5,000 years ago
Based and gnomepilled
eggman moment
@@ericcolbear2373 It's a meme. Some dumbass lefty tried to use it to discredit debate bros.
I can feel how much respect Vaush has for Joel through the screen and it warms my heart.
Truly a good faith conversation on the left creator space you love to see it
joel is a treasure, only creator I genuinely would like to be friends with
It's like a big sweater for your internal organs.
@@FerousFolly big joel is my parasocial bestie
@@rainbowkrampus I actually go through Covid for the first time rn and waves of freezing are part of it. So anything warm and comfy is good rn.
vowsh turning a 13 minute video into an hour and twenty minute react god bless
Based and redpilled
Bread
Breadtuber as in Getting that bread
TEQUILA SUNSET HATHE COME
@@androgenius_alisa gotta respect the hustle fr 🫡
We know Big Joel isn't a leftist because his response to Vaush wasn't a 'The Debate Bro Problem' essay.
smh my head
shame, now I can't watch him, if he's not taking the bait.
Based
@@prageruwu69 shakin my head my head too
and, likewise, Vaush doesn't make his response to Big Joel some variation of a "The Essay Bro Problem" essay or whatever the term is
The ideal back-and-forth here are continuous videos whose titles are some variation of "The (Debate/Essay) Bro Problem", either directly discussing the other person's points in the previous video out of context, or vaguely alluding to them in their analogies
big joel, like myself, is a scrimblo male, the rarest male type
Preach
He shaved his beard before responding, you have to shave yours or you're not a real leftie
The bigger the beard the more leftist. Marx had a massive beard, castro had a decent beard and stalin had no beard
@@Ass_of_Amalek I heard they hired a CIA barber to cut it off but he was such a Chad it grew right back and the barber quit to become a sugarcane farmer.
On the contrary, you must grow your beard out thricefold to triple your leftist power.
Everyone knows the real leftists have immaculate facial hair, unlike that loser Marx
Shave your beard??? And betray Marx?!??!?! NO!
This is the real plot line I'm invested in
The only reason I was able to find Vaush is because I typed in Men's rights in YT and he had a video where he genuinely cared about men ( he also had a video response to Thomas Sowel) and now here I am removed from the red pilled rabbit hole..... Thanks 👍🏾 👍🏾🇺🇸
Welcome Sheldon. Hope you like it here.
@@ajseker Thank you 👍🏾🇺🇸
Happy to have you here my guy! I don't doubt your doing better for it and that's good to see.
@@Dekubud Thanks for the Support Man 👍🏾👍🏾🇺🇸
So if Vaush didn't happen to have a video on the specific topic that you searched for that the YT algorithm suggested, you'd have a total opposite worldview? You really think that is a strong selling point? The last thing I looked up was how to fix my washing machine, but there was no Vaush video about it. Guess I'll keep my same political beliefs.
If this doesn't end with a screen full of little vaush react-windows completely covering the original video while voosh reacts to Joel's reaction to his 10th reaction to a reaction I will be very disappointed
That's pretty much what the Luna Oi thing turned into
Joel looks like he's falling into the thrall of count Dracula. Much respect.
Fr is he okay
God I wish that were me
Big Renfield
I love big Joel so much. He’s like one of the only Lefttubers to actually respond to vaush without Turning it into a brain dead video about debate bros being bad.
True!
Yeah, I think even if you disagree with his points he comes at Vaush with respect and good faith. Which we need more of in the online left--we don't benefit from infighting, we literally never do.
@@gabriellegoodwin4422 Vaush's constant gatekeeping is a huge problem, though. Any personal critic of his he dismisses as either a "tankie" or insane and therefore not a valid leftist voice.
@@sarahjessicafarter7383 except I don’t think he did that in this video. You can see vaush’s respect for big Joel
You are mentally ill. 😂😂
Infinite content unlocked
It's moebin time
@@Ass_of_Amalek Damn, i don't think i even remember that. Video replies ? As in like, you can post a video in the comment section ?
@@Ass_of_Amalek good ol reply girl era i miss it dearly
I love how both their secondary channels are at war.
not really war, unironically just a civil discussion between two scrungly men
@@prageruwu69xd ur name. Nice
@@prageruwu69 I agree that is a righteous handle and a perfect name for a prageru parody
@prageruwu69 I Have A Bad Habit Of Stealing Other Ppl's Playlists So Thanks For The Breadtube/Leftist Playlist!😊 Hopefully I'll Find Some Stuff I Have Yet To See Before.😬
@prageruwu69 Btw Do You Like/Listen To Dorian Electra? Idk Just Looking At Some Of Your Playlists & Stuff Made Me Think Of The Song 'My Agenda' By Dorian Electra. I Feel Like You Might Dig Them If You Haven't Checked Out Their Stuff Before, Although I Feel Like To Really Understand The References Made In Their Songs; You'd Have To Be Pretty Familiar/Knowledgeable Of Internet (/Internet Political Sphere) Culture/Lore..
Like The Songs 'Edgelord' & 'Gentleman/M'Lady' For Example Might Be A Tad Confusing If You Have No Awareness Of The Meme-ing At Play Lolol. Anywho; Sorry For The Randomness, I Think It's Just Cuz 'My Agenda' Has Been Stuck In My Head For Days Now & Anytime I See Anything LGBTQIA Related; It Just Starts Playing In My Mind.🤣🤣
These reach out to men/boys, anti-blackpill S-teir takes are the kind of things I wish I'd encountered 15 years ago when I had my head full up my backside. I really hope Vaush can keep up the good work
They have it so good. Back in the day we just had sargon *shudder* shoe, etc. What I wouldn't give to have Vaush on yt in 2014.
An hour and 20 minutes out of a 13 minute video. God bless you Vaush.
The world's funniest superpower
Helps that Joel was in RUclips chat so they could talk directly for a bit
too short
@@MindForgedManacle I have the ability to shake exactly two aspirin from a bottle, to instantly find the cut on a roll of packing tape, and the power to calm jittery squirrels. Despite these powers my application to the Justice League was rejected. (And yet Hawkman, supposedly, is eminently qualified. 👺👺👺 )
@@MindForgedManacle It's not just autism, it's Super Autism.
Andrew Tate getting this popular for talking about masculinity is really all the proof you need. Noone sits and listens to some dude talk about what is and isn't masculine for hours unless they are deeply insecure about their own masculinity.
Sorry I meant to nitpick a point your point for clarity and ended up stumbling upon why I think it’s such a big deal so concretely, it’s mysandry but in a specific patriarchal way that is quite similar to terf discourse. Anyway…
It’s a big deal, talking about masculinity or wanting affirmation are not inherently bad. It is instead that most people willing to talking about it are closet nazis(Jordan Peterson and right wing establishment) or mysoginist rapist pigs (Andrew tate and much of the manosphere)
Vaush having the ability to do so and regularly is something good people who are left leaning need to do more of. The entire trans discourse is about gender identity. Feminism is one of the most important cultural movements of the past 1000 years and a lot of it is women ranting about being women. The idea that men would be exempt from this desire to be affirmed as they see themselves, to be alleviated of societal pressure or to find ways to assuage them. I think not caring about this discourse is an offshoot nearest to the terf offshoot. It relies on buying into mysoginy so deeply that patriarchy has trained one to see men as emotionless, violent and rational in their evil. This assumption makes it just as easy to dismiss trans women as it is to dismiss men.
Exactly
+
Also explains why so much of Taint's audience is so young. When you're going through the throes of puberty, insecurity isn't a bug, it's a feature. So, manosphere scammers see these ripe and awkward moneybags--err boys, and gives them easy answers to hard questions and these literal kids eat this up.
Yeah and maybe you're projecting! Meet me in the parking lot, ****!!
/s
This is turning into a Reddit thread. I love it.
This isn't a fair fight. It's two Vaush's against one Joel
And the joel is small
2 vaushi vs 2 1/2 joels i.e 1 joel
- I do not know if Joel is big or little until I watch inside the box
“Good things are good”
- Shut up
Hyphens would help, but great one.
good post
What's this a reference to?
@@markusa5293 A meme of a scientist saying “I do not know is SpongeBob is dead or alive until I look inside this box” and SpongeBob says “I make krabby patties” and he responds “shut up”, all in a really shitty audio
@@anapaulapedro7025 Gianni Matragrano my beloved
"Sharing these feelings with actual humans your age around you is a lot healthier than going online to find whoever's making the most money off of lying to you."
Damn that's a spicy quote.
Goddamn, vaush manages to say my insecurities out loud like no one else. It’s cathartic. Sheer utter terror of being a creep or threatening or of wasting their time when they aren’t interested
Out of curiosity, if a het trans guy were to make videos about subjects like that, do you think cis het guys would listen?
Living most of my life as fem presenting and having had many bad experiences, I feel I can offer other guys a lot of advice on subjects like that. Especially since I'm really familiar with feeling emasculated and the fear of feeling that way lol
@@Dekubud I'm not super afraid of being emasculated, personally. My far bigger fears are having my existence reduced to "creepy guy" or "threat" when I try and act on my deep desires for intimacy. Basically it drives me to never try to express my sexual or romantic desires ever, and it's rough.
I'm sure there's plenty of cis men, young and old, who have deep fears of emasculation though, and so long as you come to the conversation with plenty of compassion your perspective would be worthwhile for them!
edit: cis men, not necessarily het, brain tired
@@mousefire777 Which is an issue when we talk about how it's lonely and isolated men (either literally or figuratively) that end up committing violence. So what we have is a endless cycle of isolating men for violence, leading to isolated men committing violence.
So it's nice that Vaush is sticking to this. It's the right thing to do. Caring about men and their struggles is the right thing both morally and politically.
@@RJCain I think you're overstating things a bit. Remember, everyone's getting isolated. That's capitalism, we're having a breakdown of community. I don't think leftists being unnecessarily cold to young men directly leads to violence, except maybe on the margins. It mostly just leads a proportion of young men to be pulled more easily to the right.
Not saying it isn't good to care about men's issues. We do statistically face unique issues that should be addressed be the left, since the right is just gonna fuck us. I totally agree with your last sentence
@mousefire777 The problem is that you say you want intimacy and then you talk about expressing your sexual and romantic desires. To most women those are not what they consider to be intimacy, and they strongly do not want a man, especially a stranger, to express those things to them in any way. Trust and emotional attunement to thier needs is what they consider as intimacy, and in general is the precursor to feeling romantic and sexual attraction.
i want big joel to respond to this so we can have even more vaushes on screen at once
🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿
The internet isn't ready for Little Joel and Big Joel in the same video
Joel responding in RUclips chat to Vaush responding to Joel responding to Vaush responding to Joel was truly one of the moments of all time
Edit: oh and I forgot Vaush was responding to Joel in RUclips chat lol
Joelception
Im not sure why Big Joel says that there isn't a massive demand for self help style content among young men, when that's a huge part of how both Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson grew their followings.
Still love Big and Little Joel though, let's keep this react train rolling until each video is 24 hours long
Exactly. Peterson is jut bad self help, average self help, and Christian Conservatism (plus woo).
People aren't drawn to him because they want to be regressive. The self help draws them in.
Because of their self-help or because of their reactionary politics? It's easier to sell reactionary politics. You don't have to really educate people or ask them to self-reflect or self-critique. You can just say, "hey, you see those people? They suck! Let's hate on them together!"
I think this fear of being called creepy is also a thing because there is a subconscious realization that women experience a lot creepy guys and they don’t want to be that guy. They want to be “one of the good ones”.
In my case I consider myself innately creepy and therefore something I have to consciously overcome
Well sure, it can be both fear of being unintentionally creepy, and fear of being unfairly misperceived as creepy. There's more than one way to fall off a bicycle, and neither the senders nor the receivers of social cues ever have anything close to prefect perception.
@@hadronoftheseus8829 true. I just think we need to address this “women will label anything creepy” message. Yes some women are unreasonable, and some are hypersensitive/hyper vigilant, and some are just awful man haters. But that isn’t the norm.
All you can do in any interaction is do your best to read reactions, give outs/check in with other person.
I just think this “women will call anything creepy” harkens back to the Gamergate -Elevator gate discourse. Where sympathy for the man rejected (understandable) overwhelmed ability to empathize with the woman.
The right isn’t telling these young men is how to get a meaningful relationship, or find happiness. It isn’t even pretending to.
The grift the right is running is ancient: find angry or fearful young people, give them a target, promise them reward.
It is telling these young men hey you have trouble empathizing with others? No problem Here is “woke” it is the source of all your problems, come fight the left for us and we will reward you. Reward varies but is often wealth and power, alluding that this is how one achieves happiness. Of course this sells with teen boys they are still growing their prefrontal cortex and awash in hormones! They struggle with empathy because their brain is literally building that part. (Right targets girls with Evangelicals and Purity Culture as preteens because the window for opportunity with girls is narrower puberty stabilizing earlier)
The left doesn’t have an easy sell, and won’t stoop to false promises. One thing the left should work on is rewards. Show how doing good and making the world better, while difficult, is rewarding and makes people happy and fulfilled.
@@LizStaples appreciate the effort of your post and agree with the right vs left bit, but you just made Hadron's point, turning what he said into " women will label anything creepy". That is a wild way to interpret or a wild way to respond to what he said. I think you might be giving women at large a little bit too much credit as well. I'm thinking young women and using the word to insult or make fun of/ostracize.They are humans and have an incredible capacity for being shitty like men. That doesn't mean women don't experience creeps, both can be true.
@@delneus I agreed with Hadron right out the gate! Also “women will label anything as creepy” is referring to the video and Vaush’s words.
How someone is indoctrinated into a Cult - be it Alt right, religious, or an MLM
Step 1 tell person that ONLY their personal fears are valid; that anyone else claiming fear or even provable harm is delusional or malicious. In group vs out group thinking
-{This cuts to exactly why the right is focusing on teen boys and we are seeing the issues within that demographic)
Step 2 inflate fears, reinforce any negative imagined outcomes as a given, this will create crippling affect and keep person from attempting interaction outside the ingroup
{This is the step Vaush is focusing on which is good but I don’t think on its own can be effective as root of disordered thinking remains}
Step 3 utilize compounding factors to solidify control (late stage capitalism, geo politics, cultural panics) { This is where left has solid footing and fights back best but again this is rarely enough on its own}
And 4 tada 🎉 congratulations you have a steerable herd of angry isolated people.
I’m not arguing that fears of young men are invalid! I simply think that any claim there is a sudden shift and rash of women unfairly ostracizing men is unfounded red pill logic and sus at best.
Will you guys just get together and have a really fun, friendly stream together already? It’d be a great show and you guys can finally just directly understand each other
they should play minecraft together
Lol Joel only responded antagonistically for a reason
@@excalibur2772 I really find it hard to see his video as "antagonistic", I've seen him passive agressive and that wasn't really it
@identikit I mean in a sense that you wouldn't really mistake Joel as liking Vaush in that video, it was pure business in addressing his arguments as opposition. Not to say he was demonzing or belittling Vaush or anything it was just not going to offend any Vaush haters.
@@excalibur2772 yeah for real, Joel can’t exactly pal around with Vaush on stream without getting knocked right out of his posh Sarah Z/folding ideas lane.
The sacrifice of Lindsay Ellis definitely shook these guys.
I’m a trans woman and, having been raised a boy, this REALLY resonates.
I so want a response video from Joel now. And another response video to that. How far down the rabbit hole can we go people?
And how long will the videos get?
@@quarkonium3795 just until we reach the singularity. Or maybe just a little after
that'd be a fun arc
If in 2026 we're not watching a 62 hour long reaction to a reaction to a reaction etc etc what even is the point of the Vaush Pit?
we need so many that vaush's face cams are covering older face cams
I need that "You leave your son home for three days" bit animated. 😂
^ Agreed
Dude when I’m lifeguarding and I have literal 9 year olds asking me if I like Andrew Tate it’s pretty easy to tell that the popularity of figures like him is not chiefly a conscious one
I don’t know about anyone else but I’m just gonna tell my little story here. Vaush has probably been the most positive role model I’ve ever had. I’ve always been a pretty timid person, I kept to myself, went to work, and did well in school, but I was getting really disheartened. I had no real relationships beyond a couple friends from school and was very afraid of branching out and talking to anyone else. When I started watching Vaush, I saw myself in him. When I watched him debate, I’d hear him say the things I wanted to say and mop the floor with people I hated. He gave me the confidence to unapologetically be who I am. His advice, even at its most basic, genuinely helped me out of a really tough spot. I got my shit together, lost a lot of weight, and met a ton of new people this year. I even got a girlfriend, something I was ready to accept would never happen for me. I don’t care what anyone says about Vaush, he played a pivotal role in saving me from myself. Thanks, Vaush.
I gotta say, I love listening to Vaush, too.
He seems to genuinely care about his audience, and the
world in general.
I appreciate his quiet, thoughtful words,
and his obvious respect for females and other minorities.
Very inclusive.
Sam Seder is the same,
they operate from a place of respect for all until a person turns Nazball.
We girls do like to feel respected, gotta say it.
Kind of a human thing;
and a man who can show genuine respect for women
deserves all the blow jobs his
grateful girlfriend can orally
perform.
You know, the kind of b.j. that could strip the paint off a fender and make you see god, but without the teeth.
Respect me... Enjoy that.
Very simple, imo.
Vaush is sanity In a world of Tate and Crowder types.
Say it with me now: meet people where they are!
Or admit you just want to circlejerk yourself into irrelevance.
Love Joel’s softboy Rantsona, the thumbnail did him clean!
it looks so good dude
not to traumadump but near the end when someone mentioned this is how abusers think and vaush applied the same thought process to them - youre so right. every time my stinky dad was abusive he claimed he was a victim, and only defending himself. maybe this simplifies it too much but i think the motivation does apply to abusers so well. they never think theyre abusive, do they?
It's either that or "i'm not perfect, but everyone else is just as bad"
No one wants to be the Two face of their personal life story, they want to be Batman, whether they deserve it or not.
I can't help but remember the prevalence of anti-sjw content way back when when considering the motivations for moving rightward. Everywhere I looked there was content saying how horrible the left was for white straight males like me, and it took years and an open mind to find my way back here. Even then, it's mostly by circumstance. With unfortunate youtube recommendations or a more radical environment irl, I wouldn't be shocked if I would have become someone I would find abhorrent with the perspective I have now.
I vaguely remember those days. The sjw stuff still bugs me now and again, but I do mainly care about the economic side of things rather than the sociological ones. And yes I do know how the 2 can interact, but its the more universal policies I go for. A lefty who doesn't touch on "sjw" issues as much as economic ones might be a good bridge to get some people away from the right
@@ShukakuTheCrazy1 That's basically Kyle Kulinski, no?
@@Junebug89 yeah pretty much.
I can’t believe how these guys are milking me of all these views from essentially 1 argument. I feel like a little cow. Mooooo 🐮
Lmao. Imagine if Vaush refused to do any more debates and his whole channel was just catty response videos. He'd hit 2 million subs in less than a year.
That's kinky
i think what joel’s fucking up is that he thinks that men are knowing of the fact they’re perceived as better than women, but in reality they don’t. a lot of men look at things happening in their personal lives and then look at the societal fact that they have it better and think “this doesn’t apply to me at all, i need more.” which then leads into watching manosphere type content and then adopting far right ideas from that
tldr: men are feeling entitled to more cuz they feel that they’re lacking something and end up falling into manosphere content in hopes of getting more
I swear every single comment here about what Joel's position supposedly is would add up to about three hours of content and it's weird how y'all are getting that from two ten minutes or so videos.
Oh wait, no it's not, it just means Vaush spent three hours strawmanning him. Lol.
@@laurelgardner So what's the strawman and what's the actual claim?
@@laurelgardner what would you say this comment got wrong?
@Josie i don’t get what you mean or what your point is. read the tldr i made it’s the top reply
I really like these longer lecture-esque videos/segments, especially when they're on social conditions and issues that a lot of people are either actively dealing with or can otherwise relate to. I think they can be really good teaching tools for people either getting into leftism or just trying to start examining the world they live in more critically.
Also it's not about the specifics; it's about treating cis guys and their issues with comparable warmth and understanding as the issues of women and queer folk.
Not seeing people as The Enemy, yeah.
Not just cis guys at all. Nearly everything that applies to them also applies to trans men, especially if you transition young, like I did.
@@eldritchtourist Good point.
@@eldritchtourist yeah, I notice it in a lot of transmasc spaces, where trans men end up feeling alienated from broader queer and feminist spaces because they're suddenly treated as the enemy compared to their experiences when they were presenting more femininely.
That sounds like liberal color blindness to me. I believe in improving society, not in upholding an abstract ideal of equality. Last week Vaush was talking about an upcoming g3n0cide against trans people, but now suddenly we are supposed to treat the "issues" of straight men as equally important that he literally said were trivial in this video?
As someone who just got out of a rather conservative high school, Vaush is a lot more right than people give him credit for. Young people really do seek out self help and then get sucked into the far right through listening to conservatives' advice, and then watching more political videos of theirs.
no vaush is pretty left
Real people remember all the RUclips responses with RE: in the title
i don't really agree with Joel on this issue, but the end of that video was chef's kiss perfection. "I hope you agree with me and never challenge me again. Bye."
"looking like a cursed wooden ventriloquist doll owned by hitler's jester" just gotta give props to this description of jordan peterson
I'm going 2 keep this short cause on mobile. A few years back I was mentally in the worst place I'd been and emotionally 2. So I started to look into self help and trying to get my life in order, it started out good but over time I went into channels like huMAN, strong successful male (I think that's the name), and eventually fresh and fit (plus other channels). Looking back it was all emotionally driven content that feed on my week self image and amplified personal experiences. Eventually I cam across a video that countered fresh and fit with actual logical discussion, this got me actualthinking about that content and looking at it with reason I saw so many flaws in the content I had been watching. I regret going down that rabbit hole as it goes against who I naturally am, but I got brainwashed without even realising. That's my story, and I hope it shows how easy this shit can happen.
Hey, can you share the name of the video that freed you from Fresh and Fit?
It may help others, too.
@@zacheryeckard3051 I will have 2 find it. I think it might have been Abba and preach. But not sure, would have to go back, but I do know it was a video specifically talking about them and maybe a few other mentions.
@@a-fletcher Definitely let me know if you find it for sure.
I'll take anything that could help.
@@RiceShouldBeFluffy I would agree with that, at least they pointed out fresh n fits crap though, that's really the only stuff I watched of theirs.
I haven't gotten all the way through it, but it feels like if Vaush would clarify by saying "Talking about young men's issues and providing leftist spaces with genuinely helpful and applicable advice will not single handily move them towards the left, but it WILL give us the opportunity and room to introduce leftist thinking and help close the vulnerabilities men have that helps them along the path to the alt/far right."
Its a area that we can work with segments of the right on.
@@woobiefuntime We don't need to work "with" the right on this at all, unless you mean that some of the people who will be drawn into it will be right wingers. Our goal here is to replace the right as much as we can, and in turn provide a more positive masculinity, not work with them.
@@Junebug89 we can work with partners of the right. . I know of right wingers who hate people like tate
This is so funny, you’re both right nothing either of you is saying is mutually exclusive like all of these opinions all work together
least verbose leftist debate (they agree with each other on 99% of all things)
I also think a big point is that young men want to look up to other men. Especially those without great father figures in their lives and thats not necessarily cause they are inherently sexist but want to grow up to be those people. Like I also looked up to my sister but I felt I could never be like her. Whereas my cousin was a more realistic goal and for a lot of my childhood i looked up to him
I agree with vaush here, young men don't get into misogyny because they want it. But Joel is treating it like vaush is saying that once they are into misogyny they innocent victims who hate women because they have no choice.
Many do want to. It’s a desired that’s instilled by our society since birth. So instilled it’s not even conscious, which is why it’s hard to even correct
That's really, really not what Joel is saying.
@@claymusicoff5663 'It’s a desired that’s instilled by our society since birth. So instilled it’s not even conscious'
I hear it over and over. So how does that work, this instillation exactly? What are the inevitable particles of it that mindset that are implanted in all men's minds since birth whether they are raised by traditional families, non-religious ones, conservative, liberal, left-leaning, single fathers, single mothers, father and mother, two fathers, two mothers etc.?
@@claymusicoff5663 So you claim.
But I don't see any evidence for this claim.
@@blinski1 Everywhere actually. If you're post 12 and still haven't dated anyone, there's something "wrong" with you. If you're out of shape, you're "lazy" and "nobody would love you". The guys always get the girls in all media, from children's books to blockbuster movies. If you don't have a S.O. by 30, you're a "loser". Heck, approach any person & make a mistake and now you're just "creepy".
Current society atomizes the individual and then pretends that talking about it is what creates issues.
This reminds me of how in Beau Burnam’s Inside he is responding to himself endlessly
I can't wait for there to be a Vaush in every corner and each one is talking slightly faster than the last.
I don't think the self help genre is terrible because self help is inherently bad, I think it is because of the Dunning Kruger effect. People like Joel might not be the best at offering advice but they are better than what is out there because people like him are smart enough to know they aren't perfect so they stay out of it. Imagine a world where there were a dozen or so Petersons and Tates but a hundred Big Joels. It wouldn't be perfect, might not even be good, but it would be objectively better right? If you let the losers dominate the market then of course the market will be fucked up.
this is why vaush being a youtuber is a W. Unlike a lot of youtubers he has IRL rizz and if not great at being a good role model, he's very good at expressing what he's learned.
Big Joel is great, I really love the way he was engaging with Vaush's arguments. It seems like they may still disagree, but it also seems like he was genuinely listening and thinking about what Vaush had to say.
A strong turn 4 from vaush let’s see if joel can get enough resources back to mount an offense.
I've listened to Vaush and Joel in this subject. I am of the opinion that Joel doesn't actually know very many people who are like this, not personally. I'm a lefty and I'm in a relationship with a person who studies the role of gender in politics, but I have worked a lot of blue collar rural based jobs and I've gotten to know my crewmates pretty well. I do believe some narrative that men are under attack is being fed to these guys by bad actors, people who I can't fathom actually believe what they preach. This gives false reason, but reason nonetheless to the fears, anxieties, economic disparities etc. That these men or boys are experiencing. They lack maturity (especially the adults) and critical thought, and they fall for it.
It seems to me like vaush is listening to these other people more than Joel. Joel sounds like my spouse's colleagues who have never had any real conversations with these lost boys. I think the cure is prevention. Teaching critical thinking and having decent mentorship to teach emotional maturity, logic, critical thinking and empathy. Leaving boys to figure it out on their own is like leaving it up to a lottery that is being rigged by the right.
Being a successful mentor does begin with just listening and trying to get to the bottom of the behaviours and opinions even if you don't want to hear the preamble. Something the experts usually fail to do.
I think a good way of examining the overall problem Vaush is trying to point to is this:
Feminism as a movement arose as opposition to the traditional gender role(s), norms, and expectations that were assigned to women (ie, be beautiful, be silent, obey your husband, be the sole caretaker of the kids and homestead, etc etc you all know the drill). Such gender expectations are, in a nutshell, unreasonable and unrealistic. I think just about everyone on the left with a decent amount of knowledge on the subject under their belt knows this. These expectations weren't anything strictly codified, per se, or even genetically intrinsic to women, but rather imposed (subtly or otherwise) by existing society, who in turn had THEIR expectations imposed on them by the previous society/generation, and so on and so forth. We are now in a day and age where we have the presence of mind to perform a meta-examination of such gender norms for women and are learning just how arbitrary and harmful they are.
The thing is, men have their own set of gender expectations that have been imposed upon them in the much the same way as women; they just look different. Men need to "be manly", with that being defined differently each generation but generally involving some degree of independence (usually financially, but also in other domains), being physically strong and emotionally invulnerable, have sex with beautiful women, etc... If you're paying attention while reading, though, you'll notice 2 things: 1) these gender expectations for men are just as difficult/harmful/stressful to realistically conform to for men as the gender expectations for women are for women (This is the CORE issue), and 2) these male expectations incidentally confer a greater deal of social power to men than the female expectations do for women. Whether this second point is by design or emergent from millennia of human civilization is another discussion altogether.
Both of those components are important to understand if you want to get a more complete grasp of the picture. Twitter lefties, however, tend to only focus on the second component, as well as the associated fascistic consequences from it. What Vaush is trying to draw attention to is the *first* component (without detracting from the second because it's still very much true), because it's that first component that's the core problem and what's actually causing many of the mental health problems many young men and incels are facing, rather than a threat to the second component (as Twitter lefties seem to think).
Men and women both face the same core gender expectation problem, it just *looks* different for each because of the emergent consequences that we have to deal with every day. While the Left understands the intricacies of the problem as it pertains to women (ie the left understands components 1 & 2 and knows to correctly systematically dismantle both), they've decidedly ignored its manifestation in men while the Right hasn't. The thing is, as with much of what the Right does, they fail to fully understand the problem as well and provide a (politically advantageous) solution to these men that end up making the overall problem worse - that is the Right is reinforcing the first component (ie be stereotypically manly), which doesn't solve the core problem but still gets these men on their side, incidentally reinforces the second component, and consequently gives them more raw political power.
What Vaush is trying so desperately to tell everyone (and I find it incredibly frustrating that he's having such a hard time getting people to understand this), is that the Left needs to ALSO address the first component of the gender expectation problem in men, except give them an actual solution to their problem that the Right only wants to perpetuate. When an incel says something like "women owe me sex!", the Right responds with "Yeah, women DO owe you sex!" while the Left responds with "Ew, no one owes you shit, go away." The Right validates their feelings, doesn't actually solve the problem in a healthy way and in fact makes the problem worse, and gets them on their side to use for political purposes. Meanwhile the Left invalidates their feelings and tosses them aside. AKA, the Right gets more political power by default and the Left makes things harder for itself.
Instead, the Left can respond with "Hey, I get that you feel that way. Everything in society is telling you that you need to 'fuck bitches and get money,' and I know it's disappointing that these expectations can just seem so big and impossible and out of reach. That's because, for the most part, they are, and you'll probably drive yourself crazy trying to meet them. The thing is, women don't owe you sex any more than any random stranger owes you anything. And yeah, it's frustrating that your biology is flooding your mind with all these sexual feelings and desires and you're having a hard time fulfilling them, but if you're patient with yourself and with the people you encounter, I can assure you that you'll fulfill them eventually. In the mean-time, here's some coping strategies and other resources to help you with your feelings. If you feel a need to talk about them more, there's a community over here you can go to and they'll be happy to engage with you and talk about it. Respect others, respect yourself, and in time, you'll figure out what it means for you to be a man that's much healthier than the version that was slapped together by our more ignorant predecessors."
It's harder than what the Right has to do. A LOT harder. It involves showing compassion and empathy toward people you're 99% sure would never do the same for you unprompted. But if we're trying to build a better world for everyone to live in, well... As the saying goes, nothing worth doing is ever easy.
Despite not agreeing with either, I've really enjoyed how good faith this back and forth has been. So refreshing compared to how these things usually go, and both people are making thoughtful points.
Joel is one of the only people who engages with Vaush on fair terms like this when they have a disagreement and I think everyone who does disagree with Vaush should examine how he does and strive to be like him in that way
same
True, also may I ask what your op is out of curiosity?
@@treegrilld my main thing is that I don't think talking about men's issues will actually convince the people that buy into the Tate thing, it's not like anti-SJWs where they'll respond to facts and logic if you make the right argument, manosphere guys just have too easy answers and young people are too gullible.
I think it's more effective to try and instill empathy for others, instead of reaching out with sympathy for themselves.
Still, like I said both make good points that dispute my view, and I can easily change my mind in the future from lived experiences.
Instead of big or little Joel I call him "a Joel of ambiguous height"
40:45 Getting past the political and trying to connect at a personal level has been something the left has always been terrible at. It's a big reason why we lose arguments that should be easy wins. If you can't connect with a person regarding things they deal with on a day to day basis, you'll have a much harder time connecting politically. That's not to say we should be the "Best Bud Brigade", but this focus on political ideas is why many people see the left as aloof, if not downright alien.
i realised during thia discussion how weird it is that conservatism prescribes feminism as a ruinous force to the family but also to individual single men. men have the free, legal liberty to leave mariages whenever they want but so many men still choose to murder their spouse and/or kids than engage in that right. unlike qhen a woman kills an abuser or a husband when she has no right to leave (prior to legal divorce or the ability to have her own money and property). but women are still repeatedly framed as antagonists to men's liberty and wellbeing, and even to the righteous american nuclear family. BIZARRE
Difference of Vaush's react videos with Joel.... Joel looks great on every still frame pause.
exited for 3 and half hour reaction video to little joel's future video on him going "vaush bad" in different tones of voice for 2 minutes
Oonga boonga
Vaush the huge problem with your discussion of the matter is your solution. You correctly identify that men not getting laid begins causing their frustration, and your solution is to tell them leftist advice on how to be better at it. The solution is to tell men that sex is not what they need to be happy. Leftist advice for men should unironically be "you are Kenough" from Barbie.
That beard gives joel +5 charisma.
Can't wait to see Joel's reaction to this
I completely agree with what Vaush says about young male insecurity being a large factor in their push to the right. I often look back and can see how one or two changes could have pushed me to that side.
Was hoping we would learn from 2016, but the state of this discourse is not helping.
I see this as the same as debate streamers and video essayists: even if something won't solve the problem by itself, every little bit helps.
Also, I've argued with my conservative parents for years, think about 15 or so at this point, and they are absolutely ruled by insecurity and fear. Every argument we have is about them being afraid of something, obviously something ridiculous like parents "forcing their kids to be trans," but fear nonetheless.
thank you to you both. Ive been searching for conversations like this from white men for at least the past 10 years since I came to consciousness via Judith Butler's gender performativity. thank you for talking about this.
I literally lost twitter art mutuals when I agreed with Vaush on this one.
It fascinates me that leftists are so willing to cancel eachother for super petty reasons but still, the idea that the online left can have a problem is so offensive to the same people.
It's much like "American Diabolism" being the opposite of American Exceptionalism.
It becomes more about being against what has been deemed as the enemy then it is being right.
And it's a hell of a lot easier to feel someone is your *enemy* if you believe they're badwrong on a deep, fundamental level.
Essentialization is easy, because it can serve to resolve what would otherwise be cognitive dissonance
That is because you agreed on a misogynistic take. Some people just don‘t want to be exposed to that. That‘s a personal thing, not a political one. You‘re missing the point here.
@@paulneun3356 What point is that? That you never had an original thought in your head? How could I miss that?
@@ripvanwando Go smell your farts somewhere else.
@@paulneun3356 "Men should be treated with empathy" is not misogynistic.
I’ve struggled with, and still struggle, with extreme social anxiety and insecurity. I never managed to fall down any pipeline though, probably because I had leftist parents lol. But also I was never angry at the world for my mental health issues, I struggled more with self hatred. I was an edgy white boy so I got a lot of school shooter jokes made about me, so I would say, “I’m more the type to kill my self than anyone else.” Lmao.
This is so hard to listen to while working bro the double Vaush is killing me 😭
While it’s true that many left wing people think just mocking men is perfectly acceptable, people (men included)were going alt right long before we had anywhere near the level of progressivism we have today. So I think more blame goes towards the right being at fault than the left.
the argument is that we need to take up space in what the right is using to indoctrinate to ..... well get in the way of them doing it instead of right wingers getting them for free as it were
i don’t think it’s about “more blame” or anything, of course the right is more at fault. The bigger thing is that the left is somewhat culpable and not willing to admit it, when they could be actively countering the harm done by the right
The thing is that intended or not, that type of view seems to be uncharacteristically essentialist from the left, and fails to recognize that the left has been lacking in offering an alternative or addressing the issue besides sneering at it.
Before we had anywhere near the level of progressivism we have today... I think that's your answer right there. By progressivism you may be referring to scum manifesto level progressivism, but that can also mean actually being present to counter alt right arguments. Having been on yt since 2006, I can tell you that basically the only content available on here WAS anti-SJW content. Skeptictube was a very, very powerful force.
So, I want to be clear: left representation and outreach is a huge factor in creating the kinds of spaces it wants to create.
While true, that doesn't mean the left can't or shouldn't be better. Just because someone is worse than you doesn't mean you have an excuse to not be better.
It's kinda weird that Joel keeps saying "The patriachy produces people who beleive X" without explaining how it isntills those beleifs in people. It's not just an ever present force in the universe, it's a system of beleifs and behaviors that are taught and reinforced.
Usually it’s instilled from an early age from the parents, media and society around them. So the idea that leftist could really do much in the way stopping it from happening is pretty wrong
@@deepakjetly1717but how big is this unmoveable percent? And the left isn’t even trying for the rest that could be convinced
Yes but I think the critique he's making is that those systemic forces far outweigh whatever advice an internet streamer can give to a population of people and that blaming the left whole cloth for failing to counteract that weight is very short-sighted
@@deepakjetly1717 should maths be taught in school? No, because there are people who will never be good at maths
@@deepakjetly1717Yes, but how did these people become so grounded in their views, so unwilling to change their minds? A good bit of it comes from childhood experience with family, friends, etc. But I feel like a significant portion of this group got to where they are from JBP, from Ben Shapiro, from these right wing political pundits who also give out advice. I fear Tate has pushed many more down this road. But we can get to these people before they get to that point.
I mean, on some level the answer here could be "how to deal with your gender" at least in attitude; I think the left at least should recognize that gender enforcement is a problem.
Vaush’s point about self help content for guys and girls stuck with me. bestdressed stopped posting on youtube a while ago but i remember watching her and going from shoe collection and thrifting clothes to talking about first jobs and advice on dating. And then i remembered my ex who got into weightlifting and his feed went from normal self help stuff to,,,really bad takes on mental health and relationships, he eventually got into the andrew tate shit and that relationship is most definitely over
The left should have a monopoly on self help. Period. That's the point Sid and Vaush are making. Anyone disagreeing with that are more interested in aggrievement than they are actually helping anyone. The advice to young men should be "get better rizz game bro, get a haircut" not "join the DSA and get involved in politics" there's nothing wrong with that at all, it's actually a good thing. But it doesn't fix the underlying problems.
TBF "Get a haircut" should be changed to "get a stylist".
This is pretty brain dead. What does “the left should have a monopoly” on self hel even mean?? The Left should have a monopoly on votes. But hey look at that, that’s not how the works works. And “self help” is mostly reflective of the society and community you’re already in. If you live in a right leaning, religious, capitalist society it’s going to produce that kind of self help.
And when it comes to the online space, there’s not enough leftist. Not everyone can talk about self help and advice. A lot of content creators and fans aren’t even in that position to even pretend.
This is why this is meaningless. Vaush self help in asking people out and being confident exist everywhere. Spend 10 minutes in the bookstore self help section you’ll see the comment is there.
Idk look into any leftist movement that has managed to do something. None of them grew, or were started out by self help gurus.
...or, some of us believe that mixing therapy with political punditry is inherently unethical, especially if we're not in any way mental health professionals. It disturbs me how people just see the chance to advance power and no other concerns.
@@claymusicoff5663 That's a very long way to say "I do not know what a prescriptive statement is".
Also, you know what those leftist movements that did stuff did? Outreach. They didn't discard possible audiences because "wtf not every leftist can appeal to those people, I guess we have nothing to offer them".
@@laurelgardner If you think only mental health specialists can hand out advice, I very much hope that you're surrounded by them at all times.
This is like a fever dream hearing 2 different vaushes
This was a pretty decent response by Vaush. However he failed to address some key points by Little Big Joel. Namely, how does the exploitation of Oompa Loompas factor into the effects of Patriarchy on men?
01:09:24 the reason why tradwife mentality is not so effective in turning women far right because the left DOES offer an alternative for women to become empowered and it has been doing it for the last couple of years. We really need to construct a better version of masculinity, but at least in my LGBT+ circles, there's still lots of man-hate, bi fobia, straight and cis hate (ironically but not really). Im a trans woman btw
This discourse is sooooo tiring and it ALL comes from insecurities. 2023 is here people, get real, man hate is out, sarcastic overconfidence is in
As trans man, I had this really insecure period where I was deep in misogyny. But once I worked out I was really just hating being forced into womanhood, those insecurities were tackled. I'm no longer like that. Thankfully, I was already very lefty in other ways, so I never traveled into more conservatism.
From the direction of Vaush's point of view, young men can be helped, "saved", and right wing ideas aiming for such victimes can be intercepted by the left.
From the direction of Joel's point of view, some young men are just lost, and are destined right wingers.
Joel gives up on people, while Vaush is hopeful.
Let's all hope Vaush is right.
I mean Vaush has admitted that some are just lost, we just have to act like they aren't cause we truly don't know which ones are which.
I wouldn't grant it entirely to Vaush, but it was definitely him and people like him that unalienated girls from me and had me discover that I'm myself a girl.
Yes, the mindsets exposed to young boys do have an impact on how they process their experiences and how to work to change them.
Great that Joel was in the chat for this !!
Joel is such a lovely, scrungly litte/big guy he could be completely wrong and I couldn't judge him for it.
This is like that Bo Burnham bit about reacting to a reaction of a reaction of something. Lol
Vaush should 100% try to get the Charisma on Command guys on for a talk/debate. I feel like those dudes have some of the least toxic advice for young insecure men online.
He actually did go on their podcast; they ended up arguing over what racism is 90% of the time lol
@@kukurhuza oh okay, I’m kind of curious how that went. I always did get the vibe that their politics were pretty questionable despite giving generally pretty decent advice on how to get by.
@@ianwazowski5607 most of what I’ve seen on that channel doesn’t come off as misogynistic. It’s certainly myopically focused on the wants of men, so I can absolutely see how misogyny would creep in there. (I haven’t looked at them in over a year now, so they could have nose dove). Either way, they’ve got a fair following of insecure and vulnerable young men, the fact that they’re not selling an overtly horrible perspective is at least a positive starting point for those kids.
Man, I’ve never met this guy before, but he spittin fr fr.
Also isn't a bit playing into the "men must be stoic and solitary" patriarchal standard by saying that men should not need to get advice on things? Believing men should just grow up and become a leftist, unaided, while being excluded from discussion (or brought in to discussion to be a punching bag), regardless of their environment, is itself a patriarchal train of thought.
Yup, I like Joel but his points on this subject were just frankly bad.
Bless his heart, but I don't think Joel realizez how smart and educationally privileged he actually is (that's not a bad thing If you account for it). I think he just think people couldn't be so stupid. They HAVE to he rationally weighing their privilege like he is. Which is why he seems to not be able to believe the concept many of these people do it out of fear ,insecurity and ignorance.
This is like one of the most positive level-headed comment sections I’ve ever seen in a response video, especially a response response video
I can't believe Sauce is banning all mention of Big Joel in his sub and refusing to make a single video about him again. Literally 2341237
Hell yeah brother
I’m loving these, I feel like a ping pong ball
As a trans man I was moved to stay in the center and even started leaning right in some places when younger because I didn’t feel welcomed as a man on the left I had to out myself often to have opinions on certain things because a man can’t talk on a certain thing or I was told I was a bad person for how I sat down on a train and the right were the people saying hey that doesn’t make you a bad person and were the places giving advice
The ideas that sexism is appealing to men due to the material benefits it confers onto them and that they are manipulated into being attracted to these benefits due to their insecurities are not incommensurate. Both are in play to varying degrees all the time.
Needs one more screen of both Joel and Vaush. This is Vooshception.
I need a map to help me keep track of all the characters in this, one minute its old vaush then its new joel then its old joel then its new vaush and then all of a sudden youtube chat joel appears
around 3 years ago, i got dumped by someone i really liked. i was distraught, i wanted to do anything to get them back, romantic attraction is rare for me and i was terrified that id never find someone again (a stupid thought, but hey i was 16). i went online to try to find something, anything, any bit of advice i could use to get them to love me again. and i found one of those self help sites, a "get any woman to fall for you with this one simple trick" type ones
i was right wing at the time already, my morals werent the best, but thankfully ive been through enough abusive relationships to realize that the site was just telling you to abuse someone and make them depend on you. if i didnt have that experience, if i didnt see the red flags, i couldve gone down a pretty rough path. the right pays insane amounts of money to target young men, and the left needs to combat this with as much vigor as they combat other issues
the only reason im leftwing in the first place is because of vaush, i found one of his videos on a pro lgbt tiktok comp, the first debate against the inseminator, and i found him entertaining. before vaush, i unironically watched crowder because my dad did, and i thought he was right about all his right wing bullshit. but compared to vaush, he wasnt as entertaining. you cant just say the ideas, you have to sell them, bringing people over to the left has always been like this and its a little infuriating to see people act otherwise
Yes Jordan Peterson's self help advice aimed at men is bs, isn't that the point? Jordan Peterson grew in popularity by filling a niche, advice aimed towards men. There is an audience there, clearly.
Self help aimed at men is right dominated, which allows the right to exploit insecurity in order to spread misinformation and ideology. You cannot raise mens issues in left wing spheres without a battle and long drawn out debate about, or cries that mens issues should take a back seat to every other social issue. This combative attitude inevitably drives some young men away, into spheres they feel take their issues seriously, and the right wing capitalizes on that.
Me personally, I love big Joel. Little Joel however infuriates me to no end, like stop trying to be big Joel your not all that.
And now Little Joel has to respond to this video.