cultural appropriation: can white people wear a sari?
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- Опубликовано: 31 авг 2020
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These are my thoughts (and questions!) x
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shaaba. shaaba jamie jammidodger appropriation appreciation cornrows native indian henna mehndi saris cultural appropriation cultural appreciation brain fart thought of the day questions discussion busuu language learning spanish
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Let me know your corresponding brain farts on the video too, would love to have a chat about this one x
Love you guys
This was very helpful, thank you so much. Also, I think you and Jamie dressing as Aladdin and Jasmine would be adorable!💜
I love how respectful you always are to different groups... I had seen this video from T1j regarding the topic... it was cool too... ruclips.net/video/wQ45VpBB0rQ/видео.html
Y mucha suerte con las clases de español... desde Costa Rica
This has been a brain fart of mine that I have been trying to sort out for a long time, and I really appreciated your video! I am a white American lady, and I was introduced to henna in high school by my friend who happened to be from Sri Lanka. I thought it was awesome and continued to learn about the symbolism of certain henna designs and how the placement of henna also carries meaning through her and the internet. We did henna together at sleepovers and eventually I got pretty good at free handing designs. Occasionally I still do it on myself (I put it on the top of my left hand and occasionally thigh) because it is calming and wearing it gives me a sense of joy when I am down and I mainly do floral patterns. I do not go to festivals or drink, so I hope I am not making an ass of myself. Many people who have seen me wearing it ask if I had went to a south asian wedding. When they learn that I did it myself many have suggested that I make a business out of it, but personally I am unwilling to cross that line. I use conversations such as these to educate others about the origins of henna and mehndi, and the difference between cultural appreciation and appropriation. In my head, if I were to start making money off of somebody else's culture that would be inherently wrong and cross the line from appreciation to appropriation. Even though I use it as a form of art and self expression, it is not mine to profit off of especially in the context of American society. Many black and brown people here are actively discriminated against.
I have a blended family, so I grew up learning about cultures different from mine and learned that diversity is a strength and is beautiful. As a white American lady, I would never do something like cornrow my hair because black people in our society are commonly looked down upon for wearing protective hairstyles in the workplace (there is a lot of institutionalized racism), but when Kim Kardashian does it, it is viewed as fashionable.
You confused Dia de los Meurtos with Cinco de Mayo. The first is day of the dead and the second celebrates the victory of the French/Mexican war.
Dia de los Meurtos is November 2.
Cinco de Mayo is, of course, May 5.
This was the least toxic ramble on cultural appropriation I've ever heard! Also, I think we'd all like more 'Shaaba's Brain Farts'!
By the same token, non white people wearing suits, brogues, caps, bowler hats, mini skirts, high heels, bras and underwear are guilty of cultural appropriation?
@@grucru8615 but thats not part of white culture so-
@@grucru8615 white people arent opressed though
Nope. They are assimilating. They are adopting the characteristics of the dominant culture to integrate better within the culture. Appropriation would be more like Loli culture (if you’re looking for non white people appropriating a “white” culture). But again, people are individuals within any culture. You’ll find a range from people who are super upset to those who don’t give a damn.
@@Anouke79 I don't think Loli is appropriation. The style isn't really something misused or cuturally importiant
I am black, I do not find it offensive when people of other ethnicities wear their hair in corn rows, box braids, etc. In my opinion hair styles are open to everyone. I find it offensive when people try to appear as if they are my ethnicity. Such as Daniel Cohen, I feel as if she tries to be what her perception if being black is. She darkens her skin, talks in what she calls urban style, and dresses like black and POC celebrities. I think you're right, intent and context does really matter.
I am not confident in this perspective as I am white and I am not sure if this is the norm- but the few white people I know who have worn typically black hairstyles have spent hours and even hundreds of pounds in black hair salons to get these styles, I don't see why someone would do that if they didn't genuinely like black people! :)
I'm white and one of my black friends want me to get a nice hairstyle with her! And I'd love to. I have type 3c to 4a curly hair 😊
@Not a weeb, I just watch anime I think it's okay to wear any hair style you like even if you didn't grow up around this ethnicity. I think you are trying to make a different point there- and I have learnt that depending where in the world we are talking about, where you grew up, what nationality your parents are, where your birth or present family has roots in, and what forigen culture your family or the people in your region follow, can all be used or ignored in defining nationality.
@RA Horus True, no one has agreed or disagreed so it is a pointless comment.
@RA Horus My point is that spending so much time and money to get it done probably means you do.
When I was a child we were friends with an Indian couple. They would swap babysitting and we would go to each other's houses for dinner. When I was 7 they went to India for a wedding and the mom brought me a sari. The next Sunday my mom made sure I wore it to church so that our friend would see that the gift was deeply appreciated, and I never, ever wore it as a costume for parties or Halloween. To me that is appreciation.
“White, brown, green,”
Yes you put that henna on shrek
I went to China on a school trip two years ago, and my exchange partner refused to let me leave the country without a traditional outfit in my luggage. So we went to multiple stores and bought me one. It was a great opportunity to learn more about the Chinese history and culture, and also a great bonding moment for the both of us. As the whitest of the whites, I wouldn't necessarily feel comfortable wearing it to school or in the streets because I wouldn't want anyone to think I purchased some random thing off Wish and I'm mocking Chinese people by wearing it, but it's an item of clothing I cherish deeply and I love wearing it at home and feeling absolutely fabulous in it.
I think the line between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation can sometimes be kinda blurry, so we, as white people, need to be extra careful when considering those grey areas, make sure we listen to what people from that group say and respect their feelings and culture.
Also Shabaa I absolutely love your brain farts !! It's such an interesting conversation to have
I wouldn't let my friends leave Japan while going with me without having a yukata. (I was raised in the outskirts of Japan, near the more traditional side, until I was 6, but I was still brought up in a very traditionally Japanese home in Canada.)
They are very comfortable and very simple yet pretty in my opinion, yukatas I mean. My friends were thrilled to experience it and I'm very glad they liked it.
I hope they see the yukatas like that.
Kyrie Lee Oooo an easy one. Because the vast majority of Asian people are Asian. White people are the minority so there is a much different history. Although I have heard in Japan, the tide is slowly turning within young people on using Traditional Japanese clothing? Like, if people dressed up for Halloween as a Maiko (thinking they were dressing as a Geisha of course). Would you be comfortable with that? I might be a little impressed actually if they blackened their teeth as well. But they don’t because culture cultures just take what they want out of it.
White people here need to remember their history and also remember, just because your BIPOC friend said it was ok to do something, doesn’t mean it is. They do not speak for a whole race.
Also, I love Japan. Ohayo Gozaimasu. We were taught some rudimentary Japanese when I worked in Vancouver as well as cultural differences to greet Japanese clients. A few years later I was able to visit a few cities.
@@Ellzy1 Hm, in terms of younger people wearing dressing up as 舞妓/maiko or 芸者/geisha, I'm not sure. I'm sure my great-great-great-great grandmother wouldn't mind, as she was a 芸者/geisha herself. 芸者/Geisha do not mean sex worker, sex workers are called 花魁/oiran in that time.
While I don't speak for the whole race, I think many would agree and disagree. I have not gone to Japan in a while, as I'm residing in Canada now.
It must've been lovely. I'm glad you could visit Japan.
I'm gonna be honest I didn't read the comment, but is your account name a reference to sanders sides? If so, hiya fellow fander!
I love the traditional fashion of both Central and Eastern Asia.
When you look at the traditional costumes between here (Europe) and the Pacific, there is so much beauty and elegance.
I'm actually sad that the European fashion has become the prevalent one everywhere in the world, with traditional clothing getting relegated to the sidelines.
I'm glad that the sari is still worn in India as an everyday garment. When I see Indian women in traditional clothing here in Germany, it always makes me happy. Same goes for African men and women in traditional clothing. It looks really nice.
I also like European traditional clothing and I wish we would bring it back. Why did we ever let go of the tunic?
I am of Tuareg descent. Basically I have what would be typically considered indian (south asian) complexion with light brown hair and eyes, wavy fine hair (not curly). Women where I come from traditionally braid their hair no mattter its texture (montages of cornrows, variety of knots, and jewellery) in very complex styles to protect it against the sun, heat and sand, but when I braid my hair people think I appropriate Black folks hair styles . When I wear a head cover people think I appropriate some sort of middle eastern custom which I don't ( we live in the Sahara desert : we just cover ourselves on account of you know 50 + celsius and the sand...)... I understand why people jump to conclusions but I'd love it they'd first try to understand what is my heritage, and my intent then maybe they can cry appropriation if they still feel like it'
I so agree with you. Being mixed cultures myself and marriage into two different Asian cultures (India and Japan separated by 20 years) I do wish they would ask first before assuming. Braiding of hair into numerous braids is found on all continents in vastly different cultures.
I'm latina (like,I was born and raised and still live in a south american country) but since I'm white (and according to people from the US latinos only have JLo skin colour,we can't be white,nor black), I've been accused (mostly online) so many times, of appropiating my own freaking culture. So yeah, people NEED to stop assuming (mostly based on stereotypes) other's heritage and cultural identities.
I just re-read the comment and 50+ Celsius!? Oh my Lord. Please tell me it's dry heat and not humid one. Summers in my city can get to 35 degress with 90% humidity. The hottest climate I visited was 40 degrees, but like 10% humidity. The idea of 50+ is just *shudders*
@@marus815 Dry so dry... it gets cold (sometimes close to sub 0 ) at night because there is no humidity and no clouds, no such thing as a middle ground in the Ifoghas....😅
I always think about how sad it is when a white-passing person (or person from a lesser-known culture who practices something that looks similar to a different, better-known culture) might feel uncomfortable expressing their culture because others don't know they're "allowed". I guess the only answer is to just be confident that you know what you're doing say "fuck you" to those who are a little too excited to assume, and take the opportunity to explain if someone is curious. Of course, that's easier said than done. :-(
A good example of appreciation and not appropriation: I was thrilled to go to a half Hindu/half Christian ceremony last year but definitely took pause when the invite came with a note that strongly encouraged women to wear a sari or a lehenga. They’re SO beautiful and I think we were all excited and appreciate the attire but my friends and I who were not Hindu and were attending were still very much thinking “are we sure this is ok?” We were nervous about it feeling like cultural appropriation right up until the wedding. The entire wedding was meant to be about the blending of cultures so to the people getting married, it was really important. We went to a shop that specifically sold traditional Indian attire in order to find guidance (as opposed to buying online) and I learned how to tie a sari appropriately and the shop owner happily picked out wedding appropriate attire and even adjusted them for us. When I tried on mine she told me it was so perfect on me she wasn’t letting me leave the store without it - it’s a pale blue with gold accents instead of a bright color, so I think it actually worked out better for my super pale complexion. The bride’s aunts all helped us in the morning to make sure all of the younger women from all backgrounds were nicely secured. (No joke, that’s a challenge in a sari). It was a sweet moment and we even received a lot of compliments and appreciation for taking the care to wear them correctly. I really do think it’s all about context, but for us we learned not just about the fabric and decoration required for wedding attire but it pulled us all into the preparation with the extended family and taught us more about the culture the bride had grown up in overall. It took a lot of confirmation from others that this would be appreciated and not offensive and I never thought I’d wear anything like a sari (and while I love mine so much I can only hope one day I’ll have an appropriate reason to wear it again).
I think thats really the biggest point, understanding the significance of what you are doing/wearing from another culture, and doing that in a situation that supports the weight and meaning of that action. And overall approaching it with the intent to learn and respect, and to not remove the things from their cultural context...if that makes sense.
I went to a wedding & had an experience just like this. We got to wear saris & had people come & tailor them for us. It was lovely
I understand that sadness... I have 3 saris from when I spent some time in India. There I bought them and learned to wear them under the guidance of some friends and when wearing them socially it was applauded as an appreciation gesture but if I were to put them on now that I'm no longer there I think it would be seen as a costume. Its a shame, cause they are 3 of the most beautiful pieces of clothing I own.
I own 2 saris. Both were bought from a local Indian market that has a small back room of imported clothes. I had been admiring saris for a couple years before I found the place. Learned how to wear them and everything. Was driving by and saw a display in the window and had to stop. I bought two that day, asking specifically for one that was suitable for everyday wear, and one a little nicer. The gal that sold them to me was pleasantly surprised that I knew what I was looking at and how it was worn. The only downside is that neither Choli fits me. My ribcage is simply too big, and even if it weren't, my religion prevents me from wearing something that exposes my midriff. So I went and bought some plain white blouses to wear with them. I started wearing them to church on a pretty regular basis. About the fourth Sunday I wore one, I felt a tap on my shoulder after our meeting was over. It was the newest member of our congregation, who had moved in that week from India. She had no friends, no connections other than work, and was extremely shy in her new environment. I will never forget the way her face lit up when we started talking and she realized that I knew just that smallest bit about her home country and culture. I told her all of the information I had on local spots for those of Indian background, including markets and temples. She became much more outgoing and relaxed, and we became pretty good friends. All because some pasty-white red-head decided to wear a sari on a regular basis.
Give it a try. You never know who you might help. :)
This is a really nice story :) I think that traditional Indian dress is so so so so pretty, on absolutely everyone. Over the years I've had a couple of the tunic-like dresses (apologies for not knowing what they're actually called, I'm very white) bought for me from India and I've loved them very much, but in recent years I've felt uncomfortable wearing the one that still fits me, because I don't know if it's okay/what people would think. A big part of me wishes that traditional, but still everyday, clothing like that was acceptable for everyone to wear, while still maintaining it's cultural identity (just to clarify I'm NOT saying that anyone should be allowed to wear particularly meaningful items, like the Native American headdresses that Shaba talks about or anything similar/religious). I love a lot of those beautiful clothes from cultures around the world, and I wish we could share them the way we do foods from different cultures. Again, I'm pretty damn white, and I know I don't really have a place in this discussion and would much appreciate a more qualified voice to weigh in and perhaps help me to see things better if my stance is in any way problematic.
I'm from India and when I got married and invited my white friends to my wedding, I also encouraged them to wear sarees and get their mehendi done. And it was amazing because they were all so excited to dress up and dance to Bollywood music at my wedding. And I think that's totally okay.
But there's also a part of me that gets offended when I see white people only accepting parts of my culture that are convenient to them yet they can be ignorant and even racist towards the community that gave them those things. Like for example, they'll love their chai lattes and yoga and henna tattoos (I cringe as I'm typing this by the way), but they'll still be racist towards South Asian people. And that really annoys me.
So I guess I'm also like Shaaba, where I'm also very confused about cultural appropriation vs appreciation 🤷🏽♀️
Ikr white people who behave like that drive me nuts! The audacity!
the big difference is that you INVITED them to do it and it brought joy to YOU to share it with them. Your wedding sounds beautiful!
I think selectivity & power gradient are a big part of what's particularly problematic about it all...? To me, appropriation is grabbing bits from another culture (usually for shallow aesthetic purposes) without understanding their original context, and all whilst still participating in power politics that penalise the group of origin. The problem is especially egregious because the cultures of origin are generally ones that have already been heavily preyed upon by colonizers, invading forces, and institutionalized racism?
The example of locs is one that makes a lot of sense to me. Many POCs are still suffering prejudice in their jobs & public life if they wear this style, so my deciding to use it just because I thought it looked 'cool' would be super tone-deaf...
honestly, as a European white person, I'm still very very confused about this whole topic. I agree that sharing cultures is exciting and I'm glad cultural appreciation exists, but I also wonder where the line is drawn. my fear is offending people out of ignorance, but I don't want this fear to stop all of us from appreciating other cultures
i think the question is why you feel the need to participate in a culture that doesn't belong to you. if you have a genuine interest in exploring different cultures than your own then listen to voices from that background and take things on a case by case basis. as long as you're not profiting off of a marginalised group and receiving praise for participating in aspects of another group's culture that members of that group would not receive praise for by mainstream society then i think you're good xx
The line is fairly blurry, but it’s there. For example, enjoying Native American traditional music and food is appreciation. But producing or using something sacred or something that’s supposed to be earned in their culture is wrong. That would be like wearing a Native American headdress made for war heroes or wearing Fulani braids (African braids specifically tied to royal ancestry). As Shaaba said about Henna, you have to be invited into those kinds of practices.
@@cassandra4222 you may simply like it. You participate for your own enjoyment. The world would be a much sadder place if you couldn't dance the dances you like, play the songs you like, with the instruments you like, cook the recipes you like, and so on, independently if those are from a foreign culture or not. I'm Brazilian and I would never want anyone to refrain from enjoying any element of Brazilian culture in any way they want. If you like Brazilian dances, clothes, food, please go ahead and enjoy everything to it's maximum
@@claireb6543 Honest question, please do not go on a rant on me.
You have mentioned Fulani braids. If a person of colour in America, specifically a black person, wears it and identifies as herself as American and does not practice anything from the African culture only "just like how it looks like", does it fall under appropriation or not? What will be the difference between that and a white person doing it, because she finds it beautiful?
In my opinion, learning about a culture can be hard and we make mistakes. We try them out because we like that Those mistakes should be corrected and highlighted, but the person should not be harassed, cancelled, abused because it might scare them off to learn more. A culture does not only exist in its food and music but in their traditions, clothing hair-styles etc.
The girl who wore a Chinese dress for her prom and had a huge amount of backlash on twitter because of it, I do not think she deserved it.
(edit: grammar, sorry I am not a native speaker)
Klaudia Fischer The difference is that the Black girl has African ancestry while the White girl does not, and the hairstyle’s purpose was to denote that lineage. I definitely agree with you that people shouldn’t attack people who make a genuine mistake. We should be helping people become better, not shaming them for their mistakes.
I think pocahontas would be dicey because she was a real person and from what I've heard from some native american people they feel weird about it bc disney sort of romanticized it but I'm not sure I'm not native american so it doesnt feel like my place to say haha
Yeah they also made her waaay older in the Disney movies. In real life she was 14 when she met John Smith which adds a level of creepiness to the whole thing
I think she is right on the line between the two. Especially when the movie wasn't a very accurate depiction of native culture.
Also she and John did not fall inlove. He sold her as a slave. So....
I think the only issue was the romanticizing her and smith together. The movie had lots of representation by having the whole native characters voiced by real natives (except for pocahontas singing). Also showed that we dont wear huge feather headdresses or live in teepees. The movie brought a positive representation of natives in the media (compared to the savage view). Its nice to see artwork of her (not super stereotyped) especially what she look like in everyday attire since it's the only representation i will see in media. Sure her attire might not be true to her tribes, but it's a big improvement from what has been shown of natives
Pocahontas has a really upsetting and troubling real story too that got white washed by disney. It's really sad to me.
As a cosplayer I feel like the general consensis in our community is that anyone can cosplay any character regardless of things like race, body type, and gender as long as they do so respectfully, so I definitely think Jasmine and Aladdin would be fine for you and Jamie.
I agree. the only rule is to not do black face or any other offensive make up!
@@methinksish Exactly! The costume is fine but don't try to mimick the racial features.
Agreed however don’t use sacred symbols such as native headers exetera
Headdresses*
@@ashleyford7932 yes, that too.
Alright so when I was going to uni in the UK there was this fashion trend where a lot of white British kids wore keffiyehs round their necks like scarves. And there was a bit of a backlash with an article in the uni paper saying something like 'unless you have at least one Arab grandparent you shouldn't be wearing keffiyehs.' Here's the thing: I'm white but I grew up in Saudi Arabia. And the message I got from this was that I couldn't show any sign of the country I grew up in or how the cultures there (Arab and the many different expat communities) had effected me.
These kinds of conversations often work on the assumption that minorities only exist in the West and that there's a limited number of intersections on people's identities. I didn't grow up with the cultural milestones that kids in the UK would have. But my mother is English. I didn't grow up with the experiences that kids in Greece or Cyprus would have. But my father's Greek Cypriot. And the experiences I had in Saudi were shaped by those expat communities as well as the place we were living in. I don't know how to categorise myself in these Western discussions and I don't think other people know how to categorise me either. And hell this mix isn't even that complicated compared to the influences you'd have in a family where all the grandparents were from different cultures.
I guess my question is: how are you supposed to figure out the line between appreciation and appropriation when your right to the cultures you've lived and experienced is up for debate?
That's a great example of why I find most discussion around appropriation (especially the racially coded one in the US) to be both lacking in nuance and at the same time fixated on in my opinion unimportant details.
I'm of the opinion that all cultural exchange is ok, unless it is specifically exploitative by either causing economic or spiritual damage to the community.
Well, what I've learned is appreciation is wearing a cultures everyday clothing, for example, while appropriation is wearing a sacred or culturally important outfit that you haven't earnt the right to wear. For example, in my culture, in order to wear certain things you must have a good mana. This can be obtained from ancestry, or good deeds. If you haven't earnt the right to wear those things, you simply don't wear them.
@@maapauu4282 That's a good fast and simple way to differentiate it, and it's pretty much what I was thinking too. I would put a little asterisk on the cultural clothing, though- that you can wear them properly in appropriate situations, i.e. wearing henna when going to a wedding like Shaaba encouraged her guests to do. In this way, you'd be keeping the culture alive even in people who may not share that heritage.
@@animeartist888 Good point. I think I meant specifically cultural clothing that isn't for normal people, like how in many cultures a headress is only for nobility, but I guess it came out wrong
I'm a white female, and I'm trying really hard not to step into the cultural appropiation territory, but the more I think about it, the more confusing it gets. I think it should be pretty obvious that garments considered a part of a sacred ritual or tradition by a certain group shouldn't be used as party outfits, that is just disrespectful. But, although I'm white, I come from a country which is small, has it's own unique traditions, and our own language spoken only by a few million people in the world. I've always felt a certain kinship with other small groups, and I have a huge amount of respect for traditions and different cultures. For me, the discussion about cultural appropriation starts to reach a level where instead of appreciating the diversity of cultures, traditions, ethnicities and the multitude of ways we are being human, we are creating unnecessary boundaries, which, in the end, only divide us more, and that can’t be good.
This discussion is needed, and important, and we all need to learn to be respectful of each other's traditions, but I also think cultural exchange is a natural phenomenon, which has always been a part of life.
Cultural appropriation is profiting (monetarily or otherwise) off a component of another culture, or participating in a practice of another culture reserved for religion or honor. Anything else (with the proper education of course) is appreciation! For example, being white and making and selling Native headdresses is appropriation because you’re profiting off of Native American sacred culture. But if you’re enjoying Native American secular music from a native artist, that’s appreciation.
As an Asian woman, I don't think it's very difficult to just stay away from the things that continue to be offensive. For example, I like to participate in BLM events and obviously understand the history behind the plight of Black Americans, but I would never wear cornrows or Bantu knots because it's not a part of my culture and it is very special to Black culture. I would not want to offend any of my Black friends or hurt them, so I just... don't do that. But I do buy their products, support their businesses, learn about their food, and listen to their strife. I think we can appreciate other cultures without claiming something as our own or hurting someone else.
@@claireb6543 and non white people wearing suits, ties, hats, caps, mini skirts, bras, u derwear is not cultural appropriation?
@@grucru8615 There is no historical context of non-white people being praised for things that white people get hate for. There IS historical context for white people getting praised for things that POC get hate for. Also, a lot of modern fasion is/was pioneered by Black people, so try again.
@@alyssahayes268 I don't know I think the idea that people have an authority over different hairstyles is really stupid - do I 'own' my haircut? It really feels like people have massive inferiority complexes
It's also very important to bring up the point that it's not always possible to tell someone's cultural background simply by looking at them.
I've had heaps of people make assumptions about myself based on what they believe my skin tone and hair colour mean.
Great point! x
That's really insightful, thankyou for sharing. Sad people haven't seen your heritage, because of their preconceived ideas.
Yes, I am mixed race and somewhat ethnically ambiguous. Despite the fact that I am not even a little bit Asian, when living in Japan my features have been mistaken for half Japanese on several occasions. I also am formally studying kimono dressing in Tokyo with the intention of becoming a teacher. So people could easily see me, assume that I’m half, so it’s okay-when I’m actually half white/Mexican. It’s simply ridiculous
Names, especially last names, aren't always helpful either. My paternal grandfather is Indian, so I have an Indian last name. In terms of skin, eye and hair color I look northern European, but in terms of bone structure and facial features, I take after my Indian relatives. This confuses a lot of people.
In college, I could always tell when someone doing role call the first day got to me. Some professors skipped my last name entirely instead of butchering the pronunciation.
Lt. Dax my favorite mispronunciation of my last name is “soulless” lol
Forbidding people from engaging with cultures they aren’t biologically connected to seems counterproductive to me. While cultural appropriation isn’t cool to say the least, saying “you aren’t allowed to engage with/experience this because you’ve got XYZ background” just reinforces the us-and-them dynamic that needs to be broken down.
I agree. I feel like cultural appropriation isn’t taken seriously anymore because people push the line of cultural appropriation over to cultural appreciation. For example... someone wearing a kimono as a halloween costume is in no way the same as someone wearing it to a Japanese festival, wedding ect.
@@optimusprime4221 although if you see interviews with Japanese people they think it's great when you wear one regardless of the situation (except really specific kimono e.g a wedding kimono without getting married) so if you want to wear one for Halloween they in general think it's great. If you want to wear one but can't normally then Halloween is a great opportunity to express your love for kimono.
The problem is that if you wear a kimono in Halloween or at a carnival , people might take it the wrong way even if you meant no harm. I'd say better wear a kimono at an event celebrating Japanese culture
@@polifantasmaggl8560 I'd say tell people that it's appreciation, to look at Japanese interviews, and to enjoy yourself. People shouldn't have to justify themselves to others.
@@patheticmortal373 true I'm just saying that it might come of as wrong to some and if you want to avoid conflict its better not to wear it there. If you are willing to defend your choice by all means its just that you have to expect that some people might not see what your intention was at first glance
The thing is that this conversation sometimes goes too far. Of course wearing a war bonnet is a no no, it means so much to the culture of the native American that used it. But wearing feathers (and beads) in the hair is something found in a lot of cultures but people have been attacked for that also. And cancelling people because of something that isn't specific to one culture is just wrong.
Also, the swastika was stolen by the Nazis. Here in Iceland a similar sun symbol had to be covered up because tourists found it offensive. It wasn't the swastika, it just looked like it and had been in use by that company since before the Nazis became into power.
& the word Aryan was stloen by the Nazi's from Hindu culture, but cultural reappropriation is also difficult to navigate.
I understand that both the swastika and the word Aryan were stolen by the Nazis, but you also need to think about what those symbols/words were then done with. Even tho these were peaceful/religious symbols originally, the Nazis have forever tarnished them, to say the least, by using these symbols to murder 10 million people and attempt to eradicate an entire group of people, and managed to murder 6 million Jewish people. As a Jewish person, I’d I see a swastika, I can be aware of the larger history of the symbol, but I’m going to be more than a lot triggered, and I don’t think that that’s odd or unusual in anyway.
@@arielagazin2986 the thing is that not all sun symbols are swastikas but people see something similar and react with accusations of antisemitism. There was a hotel here that had to change the outside of a beautiful old building because of this. The horrible actions of the Nazis have tarnished symbols that aren't the swastika because people don't see the difference. I am not saying we should use swastikas all over, that would be horribly insensitive. I am just pointing out that people aren't very observant when it comes to this, they can't see the difference between one symbol and the other and they cannot see the difference between a war bonnet and a feather in your hair. On one hand you have those crying out to cover everything up and on the other you have people saying if this person can use a feather I can don the feather headdress, the war bonnet. People aren't fullproof in this.
Juliana Magg I completely understand where you are coming from in this. I also believe I know the symbol that you are referring to (I have not been there but I have seen pictures of it in different discussions) and I’ve had mixed emotions and changed ones over time. When I was younger it was much more of a get rid of all of these, they’re offensive and don’t they understand these symbols can no longer mean anything but evil. I have definitely changed my view on this, but not completely. The thing is education, which is the key to everything, right? So when I saw different versions of the swastikas I researched it and found the history. I can’t say that it still doesn’t trigger me, because it will always do so, but I understand that it’s Intent, is very different, and that’s relevant too. I think a good solution might be having educational placards in certain places of prominence (especially in heavily touristy places) like the hotel you mentioned, explaining the meaning of the sun symbol and it’s history and what it is and is not. At least I know from my perspective as a Jewish person that would make me understand and feel much better and probably detriggered if it had felt that way initially. But these are all very complicated issues, I think that many of us know what a really bad example of offensiveness is, but sometimes exactly where that line is is extremely difficult to say.
As someone coming from former USSR where they removed and destroyed all symbols of monarchy, then after the fall of the USSR its own symbols became "offensive", many monuments removed, but many still stay - I will tell you it is absolutely damaging for culture and for society trying to cover up, change and destroy the former history of a country. I think it is much more important to be educated and understanding of the history and what those symbols mean or meant at the time than trying to erase all of it. We should change our take on things.
people can dress as specific characters as long as they don’t try to alter the look of their skin and features to look like that of another race. costumes are costumes. a race is not a costume.
you may not personally see a problem with changing skin tone, but you are aware of the historical reasons why it hurts and offends other people, so it seems a bit of a moot point. unless you want them to be hurt and offended. I feel, as a white person, I have a responsibility to listen to people of colour when they ask me not to do something, and not add to their pain.
there are no real people with unnatural colours of skin, so that is an entirely different thing.
I’ve been listening to my friends and doing what they ask of me. boosting their voices. that’s all I can sensibly do.
Race exists in minds. Be careful with your mindset.
Scarlet she’s just trying to be respectful, no need to go off on one... If you don’t think the way she responded was appropriate, that’s fine but maybe just tell her how to do it better next time, instead of being rude to her when she was trying to be polite. Also, I have heard lots of POC praise white people for thinking this way so I imagine she is just doing what she was told would cause the least offence.
That Spanish accent was so good❤️❤️❤️🇪🇸🇪🇸🇪🇸🇪🇸 saludos desde Españaa
ahhh thank you! This feels very validating 😅 x
In my opinion, as long as you’re wearing other culture’s clothing and not mocking that culture it’s fine. We don’t want to separate cultures by saying “you can’t wear this because you’re....”.
I agree. I spent my formative years living in Japan (I’m a white female) and I didn’t want to leave. I love the culture, tradition, the people I met, the artwork…everything. If I were to get married I would love to wear an Uchikake not as a whole ensemble, but over my dress, as a long coat, instead of a dress with a train or a long veil. They are so beautiful, and having been to a few traditional weddings, I fell in love with this kimono. But, I’m sure someone would tell me it’s cultural appropriation, when I think of it as a beautiful piece of art and the wonderful years I experienced living there. That makes me sad.
I think this is especially the case when the article of clothing is seen as normal or practical by the culture it originates from. Not all clothing has deep spiritual or cultural significance; a lot of it is just to protect the wearer from the elements.
Speaking on dressing as witches in case anyone sees this, as a wiccan, we don't really care about pointy hats and black dresses because that's not really part of our culture. The depictions of green-faced cackling witches flying on broomsticks with warts and big noses can hurt sometimes, but I adore seeing little kids dressing up like witches and making "potions" out of mud and leaves, because it gives me hope that future generations will keep our religion alive when it feels like its dying.
I'm sorry your religion is dying.that could hurt. Sending love✨
Reaching 1 million practicioners worldwide right now I don't think should be called "dying", considering it started with one person in the '40s and got through the whole Satanic Panic thing. Wicca is growing, which you can also notice on places like TikTok and even here on RUclips with more and also younger witches sharing their experiences and advice. You look at the comments on those videos and they're full of closeted baby witches. Wicca is the religion that best suits the time we live in, with care for other creatures and the planet as one of its most important tenets and freedom in all its forms at its core. It's made up of religious and spiritual practices from cultures all around the world by now and every practitioner can basically choose what they want to believe, how they want to interpret it, and what they consider the most important part of the practice for them - we diversify instead of schisming - and that freedom of choice and the personal empowerment of performing spells for things you want instead of only being able to pray and ask for them are attracting people (Speaking as a 28-year-old who's been into Wicca since age 15, I don't know if that makes me newer than you but the baby witches in these comments are much younger). Check out the Green Witch and the Witch of Wonderlust, for example.
@@trishapellis Could you clarify on the point of 'started with one person in the '40s'? Because from what I've heard, it started way before that. Like, from before Catholicism razed half the world.
@@hauntedshadowslegacy2826 Wicca draws inspiration from various pre-Christian European religions, but there's not a line of practice stretching back that far. Gerald Gardner is credited with getting mainstream attention on the practice that came to be called Wicca with his writings starting in the '40s, but he only got into it in the '20s and as far as I know the groups that he joined then weren't much older than that. It was a "revival" in the sense that people tried to do their research and look up what Ye Olde Witchcrafte looked like pre-Roman and pre-Christian conquest, but considering we literally don't have non-Roman and non-Christian (as in, literally written by monks in many cases!) sources, their success in "reviving" a dead religion can only ever be limited. There is a long tradition of essentially cosplay of pre-Christian religion that goes back earlier than the turn of the century that Wiccans have also drawn from, but there's no evidence of any actual line of practice stretching back to ancient European religions, unless you count the various bits of syncretism that still exist more as slightly pagany seasoning sprinkled over your Christianity than anything really recognizable as the same thing as that ancient practice.
ETA: this is not to say that Wicca is "wrong" or "not real" or anything, just that it is a relatively young religion drawing INSPIRATION from older religions, not an old religion itself.
In my culture on Easter Thursday kids dressed up like witches (not the fictional land of Oz type, but the scarf type - I guess it looks more like stereotype babuskas or something) and ran around with brooms and metal coffee pots (for keeping the candy in) and beg for candy :D Well, used to at least. It wasn't really a thing in our few big cities, and now with Halloween being imported the past decade or two it will probably die out aside from really rural towns. It has nothing to do with Wiccans, but it's a fun tradition.
it's nice to know that other people overthink this subject and don't have conclusions as well
St Paddys Day is celebrated more in the US more than it is in Ireland. They call themselves Irish because their great great great great grandfather was Irish... sorry 1/32s of Irish heritage doesn't make anyone Irish.. They go about saying oh i'm Irish how cool fidle de de lucky charms etc etc .......... yet they know absolutely nothing of the bloodshed throughout the Troubles. To me that kind of ignorance is appropriation..! Also we aren't all drunks!
Honestly! Whenever I go abroad and people find out I’m Irish they just start talking about a) drinking, b) St. Patrick’s Day, or c) how they are actually Irish cause their neighbour had an Irish greyhound or something
But they know nothing about Irish culture or history except for St. Patrick’s Day, excessive drinking, and potatoes
If you’re going to claim that you’re Irish, you need to know what that means, what the Irish went through and still go through, our culture, music, history, sport, art, etc.
Ireland has such a deep culture, and all you care to learn about is the commercialised holiday? What a shame
@@samkelly4132 I tell people my family were originally from Ireland - we were, and we look it - but I'm very honest about the fact that it was many generations ago, and I haven't ever been, so although it's a cool fact about my family/origins, I don't consider myself Irish. I consider myself English, as that is where I was born and raised and still live, and where my family has been based for at least one generation before me, although my mother's mother's brother (my great uncle, but I wanted to specify how) went to to Canada, lives there, and has joint citizenship with there and the UK (I think it's called that.) Then my grandparents (my mother's parents) went off to Africa, and spent most of their adults lives there, although they could only stay while working. My mother was born in and grew up in Africa, and feels it to be 'the home of her heart', but she has no right to live there, and would generally not be considered African. Also my grandfather (mother's father) was born and spend his younger childhood in Wales, so all generally very complicated. Also, it's his side of the family that were Irish, so you know... generally all very complicated. But basically, I would say I was English, then if someone was interested explain all this mess.
whenever I have seen st Patrick's day being celebrated a lot of people there aren't even Irish. i think people too often think Irish stereotypes are theirs to make fun of, for whatever reason.
Personally I tend to think of St Patrick’s Day as more of an American thing. If you asked me about Irish culture I would think about trad bands & hurling or Gaelic but as a Scottish person whose siblings have played in various shinty/hurling games & speak Scottish Gaelic that is probably a narrow band of the culture in a different sense. 🤷♀️
I do find it strange that Americans call themselves Irish when in reality they have Irish heritage/ancestry. I know I have an ancestor who was Irish however I don't call myself Irish because of it, I'm English. An American will not call themselves English if they have a great great great grandparent from England, yet will call themselves Irish if they have one from Ireland??? it's personally just mad
My thought is, if you wear something from another culture, if you are approached, could you defend the use of it and feel really good about it? Example, I can’t think of any way to defend me wearing a Sari/ee. I’ve never been to that part of Asia (I have been to S. E. Asia). It would “feel wrong” to wear it. I don’t know how to wrap it properly and it would feel (and look) like a costume. That’s appropriation to me.
On the other hand, I made some friends when I went to Rwanda. We were told where to go buy fabric. We (my bff and I) bought it at one stall, didn’t haggle and each of us spent a couple of hundred usd. The woman was so grateful because it made a real difference in her life. We had a local seamstress make us skirts, paid her double her asking price. One of the friends I made, Jackie, also made me a skirt and sent it over via another friend. You bet I wear those skirts.
I know the complete history of Dutch wax fabrics. The fabrics I bought had no special symbols or meaning to it. I bought it from a local woman. I had (some of it) sewn by local women. Wearing the skirts (also western design) brings me joy and is a wonderful reminder of the people I worked with and made friends with. But on the other hand? I would Not wear a headpiece made with that fabric. That is tied to the slave trade and would be painful for some African Americans.
I grew up in Vancouver. We have a wonderfully large Asian population there. I have had menhndi several times because I had friends that loved to practice their skills and I was a willing subject. I have watched many a Bollywood movie. I love the food, learning about the different cultures and religions. I love the dancing and the mums fussing over their adult children. That is appreciation I think.
I mean I’m not part of any indigenous American tribe but I wear jewelers that I buy directly from native artists. And I assume the stuff they sell to tourists isn’t sacred stuff I should stay away from. Typically I’m cheap when it comes to money but when it comes to local artists I’m willing to spend more
Plus it seems like you did your research on the fabric from its history, to where you sourced it, to who made it. If anyone wants to see cultural appreciation in action they should check out your post
And non whites wearing suits, ties, high heels, mini skirts, caps, ribbons, gingham, bras, underwear is not co side red cultural appropriation because?
@@grucru8615 beacuse that's cultural assimilation, look it up
Honestly I can understand why Jamie would be uncomfortable dressing as Aladdin. As someone with Arab family I wouldn’t even feel comfortable dressing in traditionally Arab clothing because I am white and was not brought up with any Arab culture (except some of the food which is great btw.) I do think that it might be more acceptable for a white partner of a person of color because they are more likely to be coming from a place of appreciation. But it also kind of depends on whether that person of color is from that culture as well.
This is just such a tricky thing and there is so much context required. I think a pretty good rule of thumb would be to educate yourself on the clothing or style that you are wearing and make sure that it is not something sacred to that culture. If you can’t answer that basic question, don’t do it.
Another example I’m thinking of is that it wouldn’t really be cool for a white girl or woman to dress as princess Tiana, would it? That would be taking representation away from the ONE black princess. Circling back to Aladdin, he is one of the only semi-positive representations of an Arab man in mainstream media that I can think of, and it is still very flawed representation let’s be clear.
I’m not saying I have any answers though, this is very much my own 🧠 💨
Hey, thanks for sharing. I too understand Jamie's discomfort I'm just not sure if I necessarily... agree... with it? I don't know! I totally understand your view of it seeming more acceptable as he's with a POC, but the idea of that also makes me feel a bit weird.
You bring up another great point about 'intra-brown' boundaries too. Whilst I'm brown, I'm certainly not arab. Does this mean that me dressing as Jasmine is also appropriation? Am I forever banned from dressing as a princess until a Mauritian-British one graces our screens?! So many questions.
Your point about Tiana is interesting too. I personally wouldn't find it offensive if somebody of any colour wanted to dress as Princess Tiana if they resonate with her story of hard graft, or love of food etc. I also think that stopping people from dressing as Tiana, but allowing them to dress as a white princess almost feels like she's not 'worthy' of being replicated, you know? But at the same time, I can see why saying 'oh yes, white person, you may dress as the very few princesses of colour' seems offensive.
Still no answers, but thanks for brain farting with me :P x
i agree with a lot of what's being said here. i said in my comment that i think it's okay to dress as a character from another race as long as you don't paint your face but i'm reassessing my view! nuance is important.
What’s wrong with dressing up like Princess Tiana? Anyone can do that. She’s a princess like all the other Disney princesses. What would be wrong is if the person did blackface in the costume, but that’s wrong for a different reason. Blackface makes it wrong not dressing up as a black Disney princess. It’s the historical significance that makes it wrong not the action itself.
I’d understand if it was about dressing up as a Native American or Indigenous person. Not a character, but just someone in those groups. I’d also understand if there was actually something being stolen or exploited because that’s another reason it’s wrong. Not just someone from another culture wearing something from a culture outside their own. This is where I’d just let people be offended. I wouldn’t go out of my way to offend and I’d admit if I legit messed up, but if someone was telling me I can’t dress up as a Disney princess because it offends them I’d tell them to get over it. (I’m generally left leaning, a Bernie supporter, totally 3rd party actually, but sometimes this stuff is too much for me.)
People telling others how to cosplay. Jeez. Aren’t there enough serious issues to be upset about? Why choose this one? Not that I cosplay let alone cosplay Disney princesses. Sometimes I swear the US is way too hung up on race and don’t even care about intent. Sometimes I wonder if this obsession is why racism will never end. How can it end if people aren’t willing to put it in the past and move forward? Something interesting is people overseas don’t always agree with Americans on this issue. Japan comes to mind. Other comments seem to be bringing up other countries that seem to hold similar stances. Do we seriously have to do this about cosplay of all things? About Disney? Sometimes it makes sense. Not here imo. But hey, I’m white so take that into account.
Edit: I do think there’s a reason Americans care and a reason why people in other countries don’t always care. I do think there’s important distinctions between the experiences people have. Japan might not understand why Americans care so much because they don’t experience the societal oppression that’s been present in America and its history (since if you live in Japan, you’re probably Japanese and of course are the majority of your country). You might not be as used to the exploitation of your people like groups in America might be and so to people in Japan it might feel more like a positive cultural exchange. I don’t know for sure obviously because I’m American. If anything I’m only going off responses from a ThatJapaneseManYuta video questioning pedestrians in Japan about this topic.) Still though I think Americans take it too far sometimes. Other countries exchange culture with Americans as well. I’ve heard there’s a lot of people in Japan that celebrate Christmas despite not being Christian or believing in God and that people over there also like to have western weddings. Sometimes these cultural aspects are taken out of context too.
okay so i´m a white scandinavian, so i don´t really have much personal investment in any of this, but i would say with Aladdin vs. Tiana vs. Pocahontas, one of the central problems is Disney, and how Pocahontas and Aladdin weren´t handled super well in the first place. Pocahontas was a real person, and Disney has been criticized by Native Americans for their portrayal of her, so i´d stay miles away from dressing up as her. Aladdin has quite a lot of stereotypes in it, and though i haven´t looked into it, i´m guessing that the clothes are based on and/or reference actual cultural garments that have then been reimagined and taken out of context by some person or team at Disney. In contrast, Tiana (though i haven´t seen the film) wears Disney´s usual historically inaccurate western clothes and princess ballgown (it´s supposed to be the twenties, but Disney doesn´t care) that any Disney princess could wear if they were in or travelled to the west (as Pocahontas does in the second film), and that any American of any race would have worn the historically accurate equivalent of irl. I would even say her casual clothes from the movie could be worn by any American today just as everyday clothes.
Esther E. E. I’d agree with Pocahontas. But again, that’s not wrong because how dare you dress as a character outside of your race or ethnicity. It’s wrong because she was a real person and the history is a bit (as you said). Idk anything about Aladdin. I don’t get the Tiana part. It’s more modern than the rest of the stories Disney usually chooses to adapt? It’s better because it’s more modern (set in the 20s). The clothing choices aren’t as irrelevant. I don’t understand.
I'm saying it:
If ANY of my friends want me to wear their traditional clothes meant for their culture for any event, I AM DOING IT!
I grew up to appreciate everyone's differences and culture and if they want me to experience it fully with their clothing I will do it!
Answer to the question - yes as long as its with respect
When I was getting married for the first time, I went to get my eyebrows threaded. The lady who did it (of South Asian descent) asked me if she could do a little henna on my hand. It was really lovely sharing of culture in that moment.
I think the most obvious form of appropriation is Lilly Singh using the word "bawse" which is a word used in AAVE ,but she makes it seem like she created it ,rebranded it and heavily capitalized off of it through her book ,makeup ,merch etc
Regarding Princess Jasmine or Pocahontas, I wouldn't personally dress as them as a white woman. However much I might love those films or learn about the cultures they relate to, I have so many other costume options that don't risk making others uncomfortable. I don't know what the right answer is, but I'd rather be too careful than not enough. Thanks for another thoughtful video Shaaba ❤️
I get that and I think it's great that you are so considerate. But these are Disney characters and that's definetly where I draw the line for me. I would not tell my daughter that she could not dress up as Pocahontas or even Tiana if those were her favourite princesses for example. You would still get Tiana from the dress she wears without having to put dark makeup on, because that of course is a big nono. To me the costume is the character in those cases, not the culture. Dressing up as native american on the other hand costumizes the entire culture and that is where it get's unacccaptable to me. The whole 'Cowboys and Indians' thing that was so normalised for years is just...no.
As an Arab go ahead Jamie, dress as Aladdin. The "original" story is set in China. Arabs aren't South Asian anyways.
no, that's not true.... it isn't set in China
@@Darkmausi In the first Translation of "The One Thousand and One Nights" translated by Antoine Galland it appears to be told to him by Maronite (nowadays understood as Lebanese) traveller Hannah Diab who says that it is set somewhere in the cities of China.The 19th century published English version has illustrations of a Chinese character. There is no actual historical textual evidence of Aladdin in Arabic culture. The Disney version is set in a made up eastern kingdom.
jokuzy Yep, you can see the influences even in the movie, which shows a lot of Asian or more specifically Chinese memorabilia. Like, her tiger is literally named Raja. (Let's hope I wrote that right).
I do recall the very first sentence in that book which Disney derived their movie from says "Aladdin was a little Chinese boy." So, what you say makes sense to me. It's also why I found it weird that the live-action adaptation went for a non-Chinese actor, but... Ah well, I guess Disney just wanted to stick to their version.
ok so i have mixed feelings regarding this subject.
i do believe that when celebrities or brands literally steal aspects of other cultures, which more often than not have, as you said, function and significance, and use it as means to make them seem cool, exotic, inclusive and make profit, that is NOT COOL. cultural appropriation is a real problem and it harms these minorities for sure, and things like "cultural costumes" are not only poor taste but very insensitive.
at the same time though i feel like some people kind of take it a little too far? and don't understand the importance of cultural exchange and such?
i'll use my father's example: he's a percussionist who spent almost 50 years of his life learning and honouring african-brazilian and other south american rhythms and instruments, which i'd say is an extreme example of cultural appreciation and integration. so imagine how absurd it was when he started hearing much younger black percussionists saying that that was cultural appropriation (a concept, by the way, imported from the u.s. with no critical adaptations to our context, but that's another story). like????? i'm sorry but regardless of skin colour my dad dedicated his life to cultivating that craft, and not to seem cool or make it mainstream, but because it was something he loved and felt was his life's purpose.
so some people really miss the mark in this criticism and mistake respectful cultural exchange with stealing it. or just flat out gatekeep and have this weird cultural puritanism, even though cultural exchange has always been part of the human experience, and, especially in brazil, this variety and mixture is what i believe makes us so culturally incredible!
so anyway as you said, people shouldn't be dicky/racist about it, but do believe sharing cultural experiences is a precious part of life and shoudn't be disencouraged.
Yeah we either have people who think cultural appropriation is an sjw conspiracy or are quick to call any cultural exchange “appropriation” to get “woke points”
I love how you look at both sides of the argument and take both sides in to account so there's no hypocrisy, not many people like to do that and it's refreshing to see
I wore a sari for my brother's wedding. The story behind it was that i didn't know what to wear and a south Asian friend suggested a sari. She took me shopping for a sari and taught me how to wear it etc. I feel this is appreciation rather than appropration because i would never have worn it if my friend had not suggested it and taught me to wear it properly.
Is Jamie worried that people might think he's white washing Aladdin if he were to dress up as him? I don't think that is a cultural approiation issue more so then that.
It would be cool if Jamie just went as some other Disney Prince if he's that concerned about it. 🤣
DrowSkinned I think Jamie would make a very dreamy Flynn Rider 💕
@@caromontoya2828 ooh! Flynn Rider and princess Jasmine that is a friendship arc i would love to see
Until oppression of black and brown cultures, and the feeling that those cultures are the oppressors’ for the taking go by the wayside, I don’t see it as such a huge sacrifice for members of the oppressor group to just hold off on dressing as a person of an oppressed group. It’s just jarring to the eye to see a white person dressed as Aladdin. For now.
Thing is, if Jamie darkens his face with makeup, he'll be accused of doing blackface (check what happened to Canadian Prime Minister). If he keeps his face white, he'll be accused of appropriation.
At the end of the day, someone will get offended no matter what. If he chooses to go as another Disney prince, of European type, he'll be accused of racism because he stuck to his skin color, or whatever.
You can't please everyone... And with social media, it can quickly degenerate into undefendable hell for everyone involved.
Honestly when I was a child I remember one of the girls parents came in on career day and braided all the girls hair (whether they were black or not). They never stopped and told the white girls they couldn't get cornrows because of their skin, but wanted to share something that was closely tied to their childhoods as well. The only times I've been told I was doing something wrong and being "racist" (I am mixed with white and black) was by the people who wanted gatekeep their race. They outlasted black people who didn't fit the stereotype. Rather than looking at educating people on how they can be better or share the history behind it they want to gatekeep this culture that was built around oppression. So it definitely comes down to intent and everyone should do their part of educating themselves on a culture or concept before emulating a part of it, we also shouldn't focus on gatekeeping culture but sharing and educating about it.
I'm very white passing because I'm half Scottish, but I'm Mexican as well. It's very odd when I wear traditional hairstyles from either culture and people try to tell me I'm disrespecting other cultures. I understand they are trying to respect different cultures but I'm trying to respect my culture. This is a great topic, I'm glad you covered it!
I remember when I was younger, I went to [mainstream, high end store aimed at white people] with my friends, where we saw a lingerie "kimono". As a Japanese person, I found this deeply hurtful because it felt like that was trivialising my culture, but my white friends just couldn't understand why I was so upset.
I'm soo sorry You had to see that, that's awful.
That must suck, and nowadays it's such a summer trend to wear "kimonos" over your bathing suit or whatever- wish companies would just call it what it is!! A cheap robe or shawl 😂 These basic ass robes are nothing like kimonos!
Yes! I'm Japanese too, and I was raised in a very traditional part of Japan, which still practice 茶道/tea ceremony, many of my ancestors were 芸者/geisha.
I don't mind them wearing 着物/kimono or whatever, but to make it into something else seems very wrong to me.
@@maggiescarlet By robes you mean, 羽織/haori? It is part of kimono, but they make fake 羽織/haori ? How can one make fake 羽織/haori?
Kyrie Lee what they mean is places will call a dressing gown or a garment which is not traditionally constructed like a kimono or a haori a kimono. they are often just something that covers the arms and body similar to a robe or kimono (if they were cut off much shorter) or a haori but rarely actually resemble these garments in construction .
Like how the sleeves on the garment they’re selling are just a normal shirt sleeves and not the traditional kimono(or haori) sleeves.
So essentially not fake haori it just literally isn’t a haori by definition.
I agree that there is a difference between appreciation and appropriation. When I lived in South Korea, I participated in a class where a Korean woman taught me how to make traditional clothing. I am now living in Thailand and I paid a Thai company to dress me in traditional clothing. Both groups of people were totally fine with me making/wearing their traditional clothing. This was me showing appreciation. If I was to take the clothing and wear it to a Halloween party or just around, then it becomes appropriation. Just my opinion, please don’t come for me 🙂
I totally agree with you and if you life in the culture often they see it as a sign of respect that you where the same clothes and also traditional clothing and show's your respect and appreciation of the culture.
See, therein lies the key - you showed respect and appreciation for their art and had them help you understand and wear it in the right context. If you say ordered something off of ebay or amazon from a random fast fashion site that stole ideas from that culture and sold it to make a profit and wore it like a costume around, that'd be a whole different thing, imo. Most people I've spoken to from other cultures are flattered and eager to share their culture with you, but I think it's in how you approach it - do you ask with genuine interest, or are you simply taking it because you feel it's owed to you and you don't care about the history etc.
...that was a really long winded way of agreeing with you. But yeah.
That must be lovely! My friends enjoyed wearing yukatas and kimonos, since I am from there and wanted to show them my heritage.
You were very respectful, and were genuinely interested, that's the difference.
I think in that situation it's about learning.
I disagree. I don't think it requires someone to live in the culture, or to wear it only to a special occasion, if they want to wear the traditional national/regional costume from another culture. Thousands over thousands of foreigners buy traditional Bavarian Dirndl and Lederhosen in my native Munich every year, from garbage cheapo, (perhaps second hand, perhaps not) stores, and simply walk around the streets in them. I think it still looks cute, but, what's more, I certainly don't think they need my permission, to wear whatever they want. And I likewise bought a vintage kimono in Japan last year, which is absolutely beautiful, and silky smooth to the touch, and reasonably comfortable to wear, and which I will certainly wear whenever and wherever I feel like, because last time I checked, it was still a free world. As with wearing a sari in India, the Japanese too were very encouraging for me to put on my new kimono, and very helpful with putting on the obi belt.
Or are kimonos and Dirndl costumes exempt from "cultural appropriation", because neither Germans nor the Japanese are an "oppressed culture/minority", and therefore their culture cannot be appropriated? Good grief, these über virtuous claims are just so full of plotholes.
I've found it's mostly white people that get annoyed at this issue. Every culture I've experienced has welcomed me with open arms, but perhaps I'm not appropriating.
I find it such a difficult topic and I want to enjoy all the cultures of the world and learn the history and experience it all. I get worried that I'll be classed as appropriating. One of my favourite celebrations is Song Kran (Thai new year) and while I wouldn't celebrate it in the UK, I would love to go back and experience it all again.
I find that people get upset when white people try to take sacred things from cultures, rather than the things those cultures might be willing to share (i.e native american feathers vs learning indian dishes or another language)
If you get accused of appropriating Thai culture me and the rest of my Thai family will tell them to shut up and that they don’t know what they’re talking about. 😂 I got really excited to see a non Thai person celebrating Songkran. My mom and her college Thai club had to go around door to door to convince the LA community to let the Thai community hold their local Songkran festival which was open to all races. So she was really frustrated and confused that she worked so hard only to see zoomers gatekeeper their cultures.
Honestly the only really offensive thing you can do is wear a Thai flag on your, uh private, areas. My grandpa thought it was sacrilegious for Americans to wear American flags as swimsuits so I guess different cultural attitudes towards the national flag. But otherwise you are free to appreciate our culture
If you want a quick clarification, you are not appropriating, from what I can tell. Appropriation is when you take something culturally important and bastardize it by being disrespectful. For example, the Haka and Ta moko in my culture have been appropriated a lot
I love that you dressed as Alice in Wonderland. I love the story too. As a white, middle-class woman I am not offended that you dressed as Alice - I think I would be excited to see anyone dressed as Alice since it would be an instant conversation starter, like "Hey, I love Alice in Wonderland too!".
I love you shabba!!
Im half south asian (sri lankan) and i love hearing people talk about cultures.
Also wheres my my-family-has-fed-me-rice-all-my-life-and-now-they-expect-me-be-skinny-but-like-what-we-eat-rice-and-curries-every-night-and-its-"rude"-to-not-eat-the-food squad?
Aww so much love - and I'm soooo a part of that squad! :P x
Half Thai half Mexican so I get this on both sides of my family 😂
Jamie’s and your videos have helped me realise that I’m a trans guy myself. I have my first appointment soon, and a binder. Thank you so much for everything. :)
Good luck! Hope everything I’m the transition process goes quickly and smoothly for you :)
As a cis guy, all the boys know that trans guys are guys.
That’s So Fetch!
What do you mean?
Ahhh!!!! CONGRATULATIONS!!!!
MR_SUGAS_FIRE The boys, meaning my friend group. All of them know, trans guys (meaning those who identify as male) are males.
As someone who has both British and Indian ancestry , that too with one side of my great great grandfather likely being a Churchill supporter ,and other side of my family hails from West Bengal , the very place where the infamous Bengal famine took place .
Suffice to say that , if they were alive at my parents' wedding ,family gatherings would be uncomfortable to say the least .
And my parents made sure I'm aware of both sides of my ancestry, and I'm fluent in English,Sanskrit , Hindi ,Bengali and am learning Greek from my girlfriend
My school had eid parties when I was little and I remember my mum took me to a local shop owned by a Pakistani family and they helped me get a sari for the parties. It was a really nice experience for me to learn about when and where different saris were worn and some of the mums or older sisters did henna for us and brought in food. The cultural exchange that occurred at the eid parties was really formative for me as a white girl with brown friends as it helped me understand their backgrounds and traditions!
Hi shaaba loved the vid! I just had a quick thing. I think people from the culture prefer Native American rather than Red Indian. But loved the vid a lot :-)
I concur. Saying red Indian sounds racist to American ears. I have friends that are native American and from India. They jokingly say to each other Indian dot, not Indian feather. Or the other way around.
Lmao in the Southern US, people refer to Eastern Indians as "red dot Indians." I heard it once & didn't understand so it had to be explained to me
Learning different languages is wonderful, but - if Shaaba came to the U.S. and started speaking Spanish, with her brown skin/long black hair, she would be seen as Latina/Hispanic, and put in that cultural box, often negatively by whites. She'd also probably be expected to be Spanish-language proficient, by both whites and Latinx.
tldr, but a brown female who speaks any Spanish in the US is regarded as Latina - with all that that means culturally.
6:23 ah yes i love all my green friends
btw loved the video it was actually cool to hear about this from non mexican people (im hispanic i hear the same things all the time) it truely is quite an interesting topic and i loved the comparison of the test and appropriation
Culture is a complicated topic because of what it represents to the people it is instilled in, cultural mixing is important but its also important to remember where it began and how it got to where it is. I think alot of it is teaching people how to respect history and to understand the difference between sympathy and empathy, i.e. feeling a way in response to someone else's response and having experienced and understood what the other person is going through and knowing their feelings instead of adding your own implications and without the fog of distance from the situation.
I'm white and christian, and remember hearing about a woman who was using communion wafers as a snack rather than for communion. It bothered me the way they were used, but I also realised the point you so clearly pointed out: intent matters. I would be thrilled to welcome someone into the church and introduce them to communion and its meaning, but outside of that context it loses its significance.
What's shocking to me is that she was just eating one. It's been years, but if I remember right, they taste awful.
Never really thought about this before, finding it really interesting so far! Personally I believe if you use a cultural piece in the right context with good intentions, it's alright. (I feel like I'll be back in a few hours with a proper extended opinion, honestly-)
Keep doing what you're doing, loving the videos! Take care x
Don't take this the wrong way please, but thinking about this IS truly important, I honestly look forward to hearing what more you have to say.
I personally don't think much of it if I see someone wearing cornrows who isn't black (I'm black for context), I actually am more so flattered that they see the beauty and practicality in this style aswell;))). The exception would probably be if like see, I wore cornrows to school for the longest time and now if a white girl would've come with cornrows to school and everybody would've admired it like it was the most beautiful thing ever, the way my hairstyles had never been admired I would be quite irritated tbh. I don't know if that's just pettiness or that makes sense but yeah. I'd probably also be pissed if like a Kardashian or someone super super famous were to like post a photo with cornrows (I think kylie jenner did this) but like not have said anything about like black lives matter or so. Basically have not used their position of power to help the black community. I hope any of the above made sense and was understandable😜😜.
This is what happens, unfortunately. White people and white passing people tend to take things like cornrows from other cultures and make it popular for white people to do it while shunning the people who that culture belongs to
i agree, i'm white latina and my black friends growing up offered to do cornrows on me since they knew i respected and understood the history and background of cornrows and thats ok, but if i saw someone like the kardashians do it without any signs of respect, i'd be pissed too.
@@topsyturvy1097 I am white, I have never done that.
@@ellenday2155 good for you???
@@topsyturvy1097 Don't pretend that white people 'tend' to shun or 'take' things from any culture that isn't their own.
I'm a white female. I purchased a beautiful sari. I'm not wearing it in public only because I don't have anything culturally appropriate to wear it to, but I think it is so beautiful and I just would like to have one to try on at home and I really appreciate the beauty and culture of it.
Omw isn’t Apollo just the cutest cat ever?! 🥺🥺❤️(besides my cat lol)
This is the most cat-parent comment 😂
Shaaba. 🤣🤣🤣🤣 so so true lmao
I absolutely loved this video! Its refreshing to hear someone talking about something this important while not having reached an absolute conclution themselves. But then... Should we really reach conclutions on these kind of subjects? Maybe keeping these conversations active is a way of keeping us all aware of our intents...? Just a little brain fart of my own...
YES.
I really enjoy these kinds of videos. The explanations are clear, concise and while some of the topics are hard to grasp alone you present them in a manageable format. Love you shaaba x
I'm a cosplayer and there's a lot of characters of different cultures and races that people love and want to cosplay and it's perfectly okay as long as people aren't doing blackface or lightening or darkening their skin to look more like the character
Love listening to you talk!!! Thank you :D
Okay so another question about costumes: Where is the line for historical figures? For example Cleopatra. I'm Egyptian and have always felt a bit bothered by the cheesy costumes made for her as if she's just a character in a movie... but idk if it's fair to be upset
I think the "Cheesy costume" sells it, if they're clowning around they're making a site gag out of your history & a major figure from that history & should be called out for it. I've been in multiple countries & was given gifts from people I met in every one of them, if I went & made cheap copies of those with sared meaning I would expext to be shomed for it. Hang in there & know this is a safe place when it gets really bad.
I agree, a historical costume for somthing like a weird costume party would be bad. But if someone dresses like that for them selves because they love the outfit or culture. Then I would actually like them wearing somthing like that. For me it's about the intentions
Good point. I’ve let my kids dress up as historical figures including Cleopatra (we’re all white with blond hair and blue eyes, in Scotland) because I think it’s good for them to learn about a strong, powerful and interesting woman of history. I’d rather they want to idolise Cleopatra than a fictitious fairy princess (although no shade to those who do...) It hadn’t even occurred to me that it might not be culturally appropriate...I do think it would be a shame for us all to have to “stay in our lane” and only dress up as people who (probably) looked like us but I would hate to offend someone with my choice of dress up costume.
Hm, many people cosplay in kimonos and yukatas, only fake ones, of course, and seeing those fake ones on AliExpress make it feel very different for me. Although I know everyone can't get an actual yukata/kimono, as they are expensive.
I think when they're making Cleopatra into some joke then you have every right to be upset.
(For context, I am Japanese and I lived in very traditional Japan before going to Canada, so that is why things such as kimonos or hakamas and haoris are important to me.)
Be upset all you want, don't expect ANYONE else to care about how upset you are.
that's EXACTLY what i was arguing about yesterday, and hearing my own thoughts coming from you makes me feel like i'm not that crazy after all haha
hi shaaba, cultural scientist here! thank you for sharing your thoughts on the topic of cultural appreciation vs appropriation. i think that one thing i would like to add to the conversation, is the component of making profit off of the appropriation of cultures. this goes for example for the discussions over some white women in the public sphere, e.g. also on instagram, wo deliberately dress themselves, style their hair and alter their skin colour though fake tan to imitate elements of in this case Black women in the usa, while popularising it and using this style to sell products or gain more attention on social media. the difference being, that white women in this case, do not feel the same oppression and can wash off their fake tan or undo their braids at the end of the day or if they don't want the look any more. they therefore can free themselves from oppression in form of racism and sexism that women of colour feel every single day without having the opportunity to opt out. unfortunately, there is no 'one answer fits all' for the discussion about appropriation vs appreciation, where to set boundaries is not always clear and can differ from person to person. as a white person with a lot of privilege, i feel like it is important that we take a step back, educate ourselves thouroughly and after that, if still in doubt, ask people who have ties to the specific culture in question if they would be willing to have a conversation about it. as far as dressing up as a witch for halloween goes, i would ask myself: am i potentially hurting somebody's feeling with this costume? am i earning profit or gaining popularity i wouldn't otherwise have had if i wasn't wearing it? these questions can't be clearly answered with yes or no in every single case, ranging from clothing to food, but as you already mentioned, in the cases of cinco de mayo or dressing up as a stereotypical mexican person would certainly answer those questions with a yes. so yeah, i would say white people need to face the fact that it's not always up to them to decide whether or not it's okay to represent this or that part of another culture and it's about time that we realise and accept this and just listen to others who are being vocal about these issues and listen instead of instantly taking the reactionary position of: "i can wear whatever i want and style my hair in cornrows if i want to", thus silencing others and perpetuating the idea that it's our decision how we treat other people's feelings and aspects of their culture. also - sorry for the long post, i'm just really interested in this topic and i'm glad you're speaking about it on your channel - i personally would argue against the fact that it's about the intent and not the message of the costume in this case. this argument taken into let's say feminist discourses, if i am insulted by a cis male who says something sexist, he then realises that i'm upset and angry and then answers 'but i didn't mean it that way you just understood me wrong', i would always argue against it and say well it doesn't always revolve around what you intend, it's what the person who is upset feels and how they are impacted by your actions and statements. so yeah, not sure if i actually added anything to the conversation or am just repeating what you have already put together. anyway, thanks for bringing up this conversation!
I was literally thinking about this last night. Thank you for making this video!
Tysm for making this, this was really insightful for me!
In terms of the halloween thing, I think it's interesting to look at how cosplayers interpret this. For example: most animes are full of japanese characters, but yet many people dress up as their favourite characters for cons and may not be japanese (eg: sailor moon/sailor scouts). The important part is that we can recognize that these costumes are representing characters. Included in that is also not trying to outwardly change your ethnicity/race to match the character (aka blackface or other, which is one of the problems with a lot of halloween costumes). Also, cosplayers are usually not choosing outfits that are percieved to represent entire cultures and getting them both wrong and taking random asthetics from (a la "mexican" man or "native" prints). I'm sure there are others out there who can explain it in better and more detail, but I hope this can kind of help with that side of things.
Awesome ramble. Interesting. Touched upon a lot of questions I have been asking myself regarding this topic.
I feel like this whole discussion of cultural appropriation is important, but it has also led to a lot of fear. Like growing up, my mom did henna for me and my friends for fun “temporary tattoos”, and that was fine. She even did it for some of her friends, who wanted to try it out. But now I’ve learned to do those henna designs myself, my friends who aren’t Indian are super apprehensive of how they will be perceived if they have those done. So yes, things like using the n-word, wearing a Native American headdress or burqa, is not a good idea and it’s good we talk about the real cultural meanings of things. But I think the shaming and that aspect of this discourse is more harmful than helpful.
Totally agree with you on the character thing... I loved Cinderella, so there was a little brown girl running around as Cinderella for at least 3 Halloweens, and I don’t see anything different between that and a little white girl dressing up as Jasmine.
I love how henna looks and I think it is beautiful (I'm White British) and the other day I was googling whether me wearing henna (not traditional designs just like pretty patterns and flowers) would be cultural appropriation. I couldn't find an exact answers but did end up reading about the origins of henna which is so cool. I don't want to accidentally appropriate anyones culture so I thought it was best not to buy or wear henna but I would love any feedback from people who's culture includes henna/mehndi!!
as long as you arent disrespectful about it most of us won't mind if you wear it. as long as you acknowledge its origins and dont try to mock it we dont mind, or at least I dont. just make sure it doesnt become a costume or some kind of quirky gag.
I would suggest not to get traditional designs on body parts they're not usually worn on. Either get any design you want which isn't traditional (that can be wherever you want). I think that would not be cultural appropriation as we may own the culture we don't own the material itself. It is a naturally occurring material (plant) which can be used to dye skin. You can use it however you want. But if you want to get the traditional designs then try to do it the same way it is done in the original cultures. And it's fine if you're doing it yourself but if you're planning to get it done by someone else then please don't get it done at a store run by some white person because while you won't be appropriating the culture, they surely are.
@@indusinghtanwar2711 I would be doing it myself probably on my hands. Just like flowers and cool patterns that I think of in the moment
I can't speak for everyone but from my point of view, doing henna would be fine as long as you're doing your research and not using it on culturally important parts (like feet). I think you're ok because you're doing it because you like it; what irks me is when people use it as a temporary tattoo ink and do sometimes offensive designs. If you really want to make sure it's an exchange rather than stealing, you could buy it from a local Indian (owned) store (it will be pretty cheap too). A small tip: if you squeeze lemon on it before letting it dry it will be darker. Have fun :)
@@aashi8316 I live in a very rural area so unfortunately I don't think I could buy it from a local shop but if I could I definitely would. Thank you for your feedback
I absolutely disagree about the hijab. I'm christian and I wear a head scarf in church. No culture, no religion, no race, nobody can claim the act of wearing a scarf around your head. People literally wear headscarves because it's cold outside.
You are so kind and respectful, I totally agree with what you said
okay, i'm hooked. (i'm still curious, and still don't understand the topic well enough, but this is a good treatment and was a neat introduction to a cool channel, which, it turns out, also has other nifty videos.)
"So please, come join in my confusion"
That made watching the video worth it
Since we’re talking about it, I’d say that when you called native Americans “red indians”, it could be rephrased to Native American, American Indian, or something like that. Those are just terms here in America that are better to use, calling a Native American red skinned is like saying someone who is East Asian is yellow. Use this at your own discretion, but I just didn’t know if you knew that since you’re not from America.
I thought that the term Red Indian has been frowned on for years and hasn't used since. I would always use the term Native American now and I am from the UK too.
@@slytheringingerwitch Just a heads up. Many tribes don't particularly associate with any modern North American state. Indigenous or First Nations are great terms to use too.
@@jokuzy good to know, thanks. Do you still add the 'American' though? As indigenous could also refer to other continents as well.
from my understanding and usage in Academic circles Indigenous Americans is perfectly fine, but also can be inferred to mean to indigenous populations from all of the Americas. Saying Indigenous peoples of the United States would be a way to to include all tribes, bands or independent Nations(such as the Great Sioux Nation) in what is generally thought of as the country of "America".
may i also add that calling them "american indians" leads a ton of people to just use "indians" as a shorter version. the reason the term "indian" is there in the first place is because columbus landed in north america and thought it was india, so they started calling the people there indians. but indians and native americans have two completely separate identities. i've seen tons of people call them indians and every time i thought they were talking about my people. as an indian, i feel slightly invalidated. i can't speak for native americans, but i hope they can agree with me on this!
I think it is very important to understand the meaning behind what you're wearing or displaying. I remember hearing about how the kimono was often given as a gift, so I think the culture is gifted willingly and shared with you by someone who understands it because they lived it and you the outsider of the culture understands the meaning and representation of the gift its ok to use it as it is intended. That being said things like hijabs, kippah and things that are integral representations of religion and things that are representative of specific of integral specific parts of history that we can only sympathize with but never empathize I don't believe in regular street wear are ok to wear by people outside of the culture. Your intent is part of it, but I think it is equally important to look at this as a give and take, if you are invited into it and learn it then its ok to embrace it, but if the majority of the culture wishes to keep it to themselves for reasons only they can say then you should respect the wishes of the people and their wishes. Its a question of respecting another culture and what it represents and seeing something cool and taking it for your own purposes instead of its intended use.
You're so lovely Shaaba! I love hearing your thoughts and opinions on topics! I agree with you that the best way for people to appreciate different cultures is to educate themselves as much as possible on the history and traditions and not take anything for granted! You rock! X
Here's my example: while my sister was dating an Indian man, his sister invited us to her engagement party. His mother invited my sister to wear a sari to the party, so she did.
I did not because it was my first time meeting this family.
My sister was being welcomed as a potential future member of the family, it was beautiful and touching to see her in pictures with such a clear message of acceptance from them.
Had I just shown up in a sari, it may have come off as presumptuous or it may have been fine - the context is that my sister was in close relationship with this family and was invited to participate.
It is tough to navigate because if she had posted a picture of just herself in said sari online, there's no context to why. But posting a picture of the event with everyone together, the context becomes clear. Idk there's nuance lol
I love your videos. They are so interesting!
just wanna mention how much I love these videos. they are very helpful to me for forming opinions, so yeah, thank you for your work, shaaba!
I learnt so much from this video, I’ve been struggling to understand the fine line and this really helped xx thank you!
According my understanding of cultural appropriation, it is indeed stealing someone else's culture. Like recently, I came across some American website that described Indian clothing and jewellery as "Boho". And I think that is disrespectful and ignorant, it is stealing someone else's culture and rebranding it for your own benefit. According to me, that is cultural appropriation. Now, if they would have listed the same items as "Jhumka" (Indian earrings) and "Kurta" (a long Indian top) and then have described what it is, where it comes from and how it is traditionally worn, then that would have been respectful enough for me.
It is people wearing something from my culture and thinking it's cool and trendy, having no idea that people in a culture have been doing this for centuries that upsets me.
Also, it is fine to wear a character's outfit as a costume even if that character happens to be a different race as long as it is a fictional character that has not already be stereotyped and misrepresented. For example, wearing the costume of Pocahontas is inappropriate because she was an actual person and her story was nothing like that has been shown in the movie. You can still like the character in the movie and even like the movie on its own while knowing that it was an actual person who had her own struggle and a big company like Disney exploited her story for their benefit. I think I being a brown girl can wear Jasmine's costume because even though the Arab culture isn't mine, I think we brown people have so much common in our culture and among us that we consider ourselves part of a bigger group. But I know that Jasmine's outfit is created by ignorant men working in Disney. That is not how a princess would have ever dressed. And it is because of that wrong depiction that I think white people should not dress as princess Jasmine. You can surely get inspired by her outfit for an outfit you want to wear in your regular life, just don't dress as her.
And also, dressing simply as an identity is plain offensive. No, you can't dress as a "gay man" or a "Native American person".
Also, a brown girl dressed up as Super woman is not dressed as "Brown Super woman", she's dressed just as "Super woman". And a black man dressed as "Captain America is not dressed as" Black Captain America". An Asian boy dressed as Harry Potter is not dressed as "Asian Harry Potter".
As a french person, I love your introduction: bonjour to you too petit pois
I guess it indeed depends on how you do it, it has to be respectful and while understanding fully the meaning behind the "appropriation/ appreciation"
Really love to see/hear that someone else shares this train of thought regarding this topic. Especially from a brown person (I'm white), because it's such a difficult topic and to see that someone who is part of a culture that sometimes is appropriated struggles with it as much as I do is kinda comforting. So, thanks for making this video Shaaba!
This was a fantastic and reasonable explanation between the two concepts! 😁👍🏻
I grew up in a very multicultural area as a child, so I guess I don't really get the appropriation thing because everyone was encouraged to share and celebrate each other's cultures. The Native American thing I can get, but we all share the same planet and we enrich each other's lives by learning about other countries and cultures. The thing that annoys me most though is when angry white people decide what is offensive for another culture without asking the people from that place what they think. For example, people will go mental if they see a non-Japanese person in a kimono, but if they actually researched it then they would find that Japanese people generally quite like when tourists show appreciation for their culture. I have had discussions about a couple of Afro-Caribbean people about the white people wearing dreads debate and they literally couldn't give a shit and said they didn't know anyone who did.
Exactly. Same with us Latinos. Lately, angry white radicals have been demanding that Latino characters be removed from shows bc they're 'r@cist stereotypes.' But we love those characters & also we don't mind people wearing clothes with Mayan patterns & so forth. We find it flattering
This is a slight tangent but I took an ecology class at university and loads of the white students had dreadlocks and to be honest they looked really gross and ratty! The teacher was white and she had dreadlocks too but her's looked nice. She lived and worked in Tanzania for a while and got her's done there so that's probably why they looked good. I've heard white people before say that they got dreadlocks by just not washing or brushing their hair and letting it matt together and naturally form "dreadlocks" - that's probably what the students did and why theirs looked gross!!
@@rorolilred from what I have heard, the neglect method is actually the worst one in terms of effectiveness.
@@rorolilred I had the dread/braid convo w many ppl and was basically just asked to support a black owned business if I were to want those hairstyles and asked to research things like how enslaved persons braided rice into their hair to not starve on the slave ships
@@laneadams1303 that's really cool that you did that!
I think the only way Jamie dressing up as Aladdin would be offensive is if he decided to do brown face. As far as I've seen and experienced, people can dress up as any fictional character, so long as they're not mocking a culture (the way people do when they dress up like "random Mexican man") and also don't do something awful like painting their skin another colour. Intent definitely matters and I think that some things should never be taken by other cultures - such as war bonnets.
You'd likely get disapproval for wearing cornrows because it IS a cultural thing for black people and people with kinky hair. Even though you're not white, I know quite a lot of people who get upset by other cultures wearing something that's so clearly coded as their own. I...hope that makes sense. I'm tired and a bit out of it.
EDIT: When it comes to food and film stuff, I think that's just appreciation and partaking. The problem, from my understanding, comes from someone outside of that culture taking something that's clearly been taken from that culture and acting like a) it's their innovation, b) they're mocking the cultural item in question or c) they think they're owed it regardless of not knowing the context and history of it. When it comes to food and media, I think it's really beautiful to share those things.
I love this, I always wonder/worry about where the line is between cultural appropriation and appreciating other cultures. Thank you for talking about this!
Such a good conversation though, truly
I can understand why people are upset about some things taken from culture. But many really go over the line. F.e: I am from Germany and like Japan and the culture. It is a country I really wanna live in. But I am still a German. But when I cooked ramen and posted it online bc I was so proud of it and it was really hard. And other people shitted about that. Mostly not even japanese or asians! But I refuse to only eat germans food... bc it would be really unhealthy xD and what do americans eat since they don't really have something that isn't from other cultures?
The people complaining about your food are either trolls or bad friends. And Native Americans still exist! ;p
i think its definitely a complicated thing but i thionk the big reason appropriation bugs me is because of the effects it has, headdresses become a costume, people's religions are degraded to just a trivial fashion statement... Like as a mixed race white and black person, and identifying with being black, canerows and dreads are really important to a lot of people, but then white society has litterally blocked people from jobs for them, and the white use of dreads has actually worsened it, dreads in straight hair often need to be unwashed for the hair to lock, and so now there's a stereotype that dreads are dirty.
I think there's also just an aspect of like "cant we just have something for once" like so much culture and stuff has been destroyed and lost, i kinda want to just have things that are our things for a moment, when there's actually equal footing it wouldnt matter, but there's an imbalance right now. In terms of costumes, it reminds me of cosplay, ill cosplay white characters, but there's also limited mixed or black options, white people have a ton of options, and it does feel wierd there being a different standard, but i feel like often there's such a small amount of minority characters, minorities have every right to want to hold on and claim them.
There's also a difference between taking a piece of culture you see and being invited in, if someone from x culture dresses you up, e.g. i wore a yukata in japan once, being invited into trying that, that seems ok as the people there wanted us to do it, it'd be slightly uncomfortable if our school trip just bought them for the sake of it imo
Chochy I absolutely 100% agree with this argument! I think you explained it all really well :)
Good explanation, and as I commented, white cultural imperialism and the pressure for assimilation means (in my opinion) what "costume/characters" are up for grabs for anyone. We all have these stories and characters imposed on us anyway.
Wonderful stream of consciousnes!!! Love you
It's always good to hear your thoughts Shaaba. I tend to agree with most of your points in this video. There are a lot of questions with this that I too would like the answers to! Intent and context is everything.
just wanted to give my two cents about this as i've been talking about this a lot with both sides of my family (indian and jamaican)
okay, about the 'appropriation' of white culture as a concept, the main issue with cultural appropriation is the fact that you are ultimately taking the culture from an oppressed group? i hope that makes sense, but it is about context largely, i think it's fine for jaime to dress as aladdin because of two reasons. one, it's a couple's costume with his asian fiance who feels comfortable with him doing it and two, aladdin is a fictional character and jaime wouldn't be doing brownface in order to wear that costume. i'd also add the pocahontas thing is probably over the line because she was a real person and went through a lot of trauma in her life that was totally brushed away by the disney film. it's appropriation, not a costume, because she's not fictional, it's like a white person dressing up as mlk or rosa parks, pocahontas fought for her people and sacrificed a lot for them.
but going bakc to my original point, as a half indian half jamaican, i feel i have some insight into this. specifically with henna i think the use of henna itself, like the substance, is fine, however outside of a functional setting (e.g. at your wedding, it's perfectly fine for your non-asian friends to have mendhi as they're participating in ceremonies and it's part of tradition to have your friends have it, they are appreciating your culture and embracing it) i don't think it's okay for non-asians to use mendhi patterns? i had a long conversation with my dadima about it and we agree, the use of henna is fine but to use the cultural patterns is appropriation, as that crosses the line.
then speaking as a half jamaican, i'd say that a white person wearing things like cornrows and box braids is always appropriation (also it's just rly bad for non-curly hair, it can be really really damaging to fine hair, even some mixed race people don't wear those styles if their texture is too straight) but also it's the history behind those styles and the fact that for me, i could be seen as unprofessional, even today, for wearing my cultural styles whereas a white person is seen as cool for it. and in the past, black women were almost forced to wear wigs or straighten their hair to be taken seriously, even in recent years boys have been forced to cut off their dreads in school etc etc. there is also the history dating back to slavery, where we weren't allowed to wear our beautiful cultural styles because it made the slave master's wives jealous that they couldn't do that with their hair and they often worried about their husbands being seduced by the styles or finding one of the slaves more pretty than them. Instead they forced the slaves to wear rags over their heads. that is a deep and troubled history behind those hairstyles and there is much much more to it, our hair is so important to us, and is often the only way for us to feel pretty in a world that tells us that our features, our dark skin and our behaviours are ugly, you know? unfortunately, there isn't enough distance between black women and that trauma for us to comfortably have other people take our culture and wear it in a non-functional way. cornrows for convenience, if you have particularly difficult hair (like u said as a kid ur hair was very long which made it hard to manage) i would view as fine on a kid, it's not taking my culture, having your fun with it and then taking it off when ur ready, it's using the most convenient style for you, which i personally view as different.
also there is the added question of ultimately, if you're outside of a culture and people within it are uncomfortable with you doing certain things with their culture, why would you ever want to push it and make those people uncomfortable just because you (not you specifically i'm mainly referring to white people when they want to wear locs and braids etc etc) feel that you should be allowed to?
edit: also about normalisation! we should be normalising different cultures, however like you said, it shouldn't be a white person doing it that makes it normal. it should be normal because we, within our own cultures, do it! sharing it with white people shouldn't be what makes it normal! overall, i think unfortunately context is key here, there are no hard and fast rules and we have to make judgements for ourselves about what is appropriate and what isn't! i wouldn't dress as pocahontas or a native american or even wear any of their clothing or hairstyles for a party or in everyday life becuase it's their culture and especially in native american culture, everything means something, even the smallest necklace holds a lot of meaning and it's very similar with seemingly small things in indian culture. i can't say the same for jamaican culture, but for black people our hair is so very important to us! idk i'm rambling but i hope i made sense and that you see this!
"it shouldn't be a white person doing it that makes it normal. it should be normal because we, within our own cultures, do it! "
Thanks for this insightful comment, as a white european it helps understand the issue better.
I have a question about hairstyles tho: would it be considered offensive for anyone of non-african descent to wear things like "dutch" braids, "boxer" braids etc which are essentially cornrows ? I get the history and the trauma related to black people and their hair, but at the same time, if it's done respectfully (without ignoring or erasing the origin and history), I don't see why someone who finds the style beautiful couldn't enjoy it ? I'm a bit confused as to where to draw the line...
NB: I don't want to offend anyone, so if I did, let me know so that I can improve
Love this ♥️ thank you for sharing your insights.
Two questions: (obviously you don't have to respond since it is not your responsibility to educate me, just putting them out there)
1) cultural overlap: I remember a while back a lot of people getting upset about 'boxer braids' as appropriation of corn rows, but when I saw them they just looked like Dutch braids which is how I've always braided my hair (since childhood)because it doesn't fall out as quickly. I felt like this situation was complicated by it being a Kardashian (appropriation queens) wearing them but the braids themselves felt like cultural overlap and it left me kind of unsure. I don't want to be disrespectful but I also don't want to give up my own culture either.
2) you mention people dressing up as MLK or Rosa parks. I remember that kid who dressed up as MLK with blackface but was super passionate about MLK and had really wanted to dress as him when told to dress as someone who inspired him from American history. Even without getting into the sanitation of MLK into someone who's views were acceptable to white people, I thought the issue with this was that he wore (and none of the adults in his life stopped him from wearing) black face, not that he wanted to research and present on MLK for his project. Obviously this is a very specific situation that is totally different from someone going as MLK to a fancy dress party, but your comment made me think you might disagree with me on this and I was interested to know why.
Thank you
lets ficks hi! i’m happy to have a discussion about this :))
so for your first point, i looked up the Dutch braids and that’s a different style to box braids, there is nothing wrong with you having your cultural hairstyles because of overlap, a lot of Native American cultures also use the popular ‘Dutch braid’ as another example so I personally see no issue with this! It’s your cultural style and there is often crossover in the more convenient styles! Cornrows are also pretty common in southern Indian culture, which is why my grandma on my dad’s side knew how to braid my hair and they also use the Dutch braid style, it makes sense that so many cultures would have figured out such a convenient style!
For the MLK thing, I understand that that kid wanted to show how much he loved MLK, in that situation it’s delicate, even without the blackface, dressing up as MLK is inappropriate in my eyes, no matter how much he admired him, I think there were just a lot of other options that the adults in his life should have presented to him, in situations where opinions are divided, I personally think, until we have all achieved true equality, it’s probably better to steer clear of such grey areas :) hope that’s clear! it’s early and i have had 3 hours of sleep skjdks :)))
Ambre De Herde hey! i personally think there is no issue with Dutch/boxer braids as they’re so common across every culture, European, Native American, Indian, African and more, it’s just a convenient style that most cultures have some iteration of! It’s also just a very popular style among all cultures, I don’t think it has connotations of any specific culture, the two to four rows are kind of different to the tight and elaborate cornrow styles specific to black culture, I would say like 20 is cornrows, 4 or less bigger ones is very common among most cultures! :))
I think it's hard to determine who is appreciating the culture and who is appropriating it without having a conversation about their intentions. As a white woman there are so many cultures I appreciate and am so interested in, but I'm too scared to express that without being told I'm appropriating and racist. I think this is more of a thoughtful video to discuss the issue and contemplate our actions further, and I love it!
Casual reminder that you now also have temporary tattoo ink called inkbox! i personally use it is a way to express myself, and i use it as an art material. so i would recommend that for people if they felt like henna was inappropiate to experiment with! i personally have their freehand ink bottles and it works amazing! (:
Thank you Shaaba for this brainfart, i would enjoy more. It helped clarify a lot for me and made me more aware of things, so next time i will definitly think about my actions!
Can’t wait to watch this with a hot chocolate and my cat next to me :) feeling comfyy
I also always grab a snack and get comfy whenever Shabba posts a new video!! ❤️❤️
This has been something I've been trying to understand for the longest time and it's frustrated me. I enjoy cultures of varying kinds, and I won't deny being short-sighted at understanding the nuances of culture and their struggles. I've heard many different people talk on this, but I feel yours is one of the more fleshed out understandings of the differences between Appreciation and Appropriation. There is a fine line between the two and I think that line isn't always the clearest to see when we aren't taking a step back to evaluate the intent. But also due to the fact no one person's opinion/stance on it is law, it's hard to set down a standard of it, and I think to some extent that's to be expected and that's okay. In the end, it's something that probably needs more people talking about it so that we can understand and share culture in a way that honors it rather than just puts it on for a cheap thought and tosses it away at the end of the night.
I share the idea that portraying a character is fine, but not the people. Beyond that, I'm stuck in the doldrums of sorting out finer parts of it all. Or even understanding the finer parts.
THank you for sharing your thoughts on this Shaaba. :)
You put my exact thoughts into words. The entire debate is new to me and because there are so many different opinions I can get confused and frustrated, so I think it's very important to have ppl talk abt it and not attack each other
Sometimes I watch her videos with ought even reading the title just because I love her energy and vibe. I loved this video and found it so educational and its great that she is not afraid to talk about the hard topics and makes it fun and interesting. Great job🥰
I think the main problem that blurs the line between both is that people don’t make space for the ones appreciating/appropriating culture to explain themselves, and by explaining I mean talking to them and actually seeing if they’re appreciating the culture or appropriating the culture
I personally have a VERY different example (my culture is not very ignored or a huge minority but it is seen through SO MANY stereotypes outside of South America)
I am Brazilian, and one of my best friend’s from Canada, and she was very into throwing a Brazilian dinner for her family during quarantine (to make a change a lil bit and introduce her family to the culture of one of her best friends) and she took the time with me to understand what every dish meant and how every tradition is constructed before organizing the dinner night, and that made my heart whole because she was actually spreading my culture from a genuine source
Appropriation for me would be if she just searched a bunch of stuff and threw the dinner just cause, just to vary her dinner nights
Interesting video. I liked the fact that you didn't claim to have all the answers. I struggle when people say someone in the 'majority' can't do something, as that judges the person. What about the traveller community or people of mixed race? Someone's heritage isn't always obvious.
I think intent is an important factor, but also is the thing being debated is religious or culturally significant. If it just an everyday item of clothing or hairstyle (to them) I struggle to understand how or why someone could get offended. For instance 'pajamas', many people won't know the origin of the item or word, but as an everyday item should anyone be offended that they are widely appropriated.
This was a great video and made me think more about what the difference is between appropriation and appreciation. I love learning about cultures, but I'm scared to visit places and to not be seen as someone genuinely trying to learn new things as a white person. I hate offending people and I can rarely practice my Spanish with my cousins for fear of them being offended at my bad accent or when I mispronounce words. I don't want them to misunderstand, but I don't know how to get over this fear. It's blocking me from more experiences and things I have yet to do. So listening to someone else who is addressing and also confused helped me understand different angles. Sorry for the long comment, but I hope it added something. Thank you for your lovely content, Shaaba❤️
I've really woken up to all of the aspects of this after learning about Erving Goffman's essay on stigma. Would recommend it to anyone. Yes there are unintentionally slights in the essay but by focusing on the intent to explore social psychology, you really get a newfound appreciation for the experience of belonging to a stigmatised group, and that anything can become a source of stigma. Thank you for your video. Peace.