Wow guys! I really didn't think this video was going to do as good as it did! I'm glad all of you have liked, disliked, commented, and hated on the video. I want to keep trying with this so bare with me I hope you guys stick with me. Lets keep the conversations rolling!! Don't Forget to check out my other videos!!
@@jayzdawg3111 Thats what its all about and I didn't think this video was gonna do good at all. I was just spewing thoughts about the series that came into my head and just decided to have fun with it and threw the question out there knowing I might trigger some stans lol
@@kadu-kunFrom Radditz to Vegeta Goku got around 20x stronger without Kaioken. If Gero made as math 1 year 20x stronger bye buildung the Androids it would have been those Numbers. Against Vegeta 8000 one year later when the from Nappa killed got wished back a year has past Gero would then work with 160000. Another year pass Trunks kills Mecha Frieza Power Level with that Gero probably works is 3,2 Million. Another 3 years are passimg till the Android Saga. The numbers there would have been 64 Million, 1,28 Billion and 25,6 Billion with what Gero probably works. Let us say Base for Vegeta is 600 Million then he would be as SSJ in 30 Billion Against Android 18 with around 25,6 Billion let us say 26 Billion. Vegeta and 18 battled for a while and SSJ costs Energy so at the Beginning Vegeta maybe was a bit stronger but the Stamina Difference was to high and when Vegeta startet to get weaker it would have become more easy to Break His Arm.
The good doctor didn't need to study the saiyans to have that power, the androids are humans with infinite energy and super durable synthetic cells. Their strength has to do with their ki being unsensable, and being more like Superman's powers. Their energy field protects them from physics itself and powers them. Their strength is they don't get tired, but their raw strength is because well... Base saiyans couldn't even lift 40 tons back then, and these are metal and plastic people with muscles like ours but made synthetically. Their power is both because of how energy works in Dragonball, but because their bodies can't be hurt or damaged, and their attacks can use their muscles full strength, without ripping them apart. You act like the androids got power by copying Saiyan cells, but their not like saiyans at all. Also, humans are better at using energy than saiyans are confirmed, so it could have to do with them being human at one point, and being given infinite energy usage. Whrn you can use unlimited energy and your energy is a weapon, you can hit infinitely hard my guy, but that's another plot hole. But another way to put it is they have more than four times the ki of the saiyans, so the Saiyan attacks can't penetrate the ki barrier (guidebook statements for how energy functions in db)
@@richardfalus2873 Base not able to Lift 40 tons is because Toriyama was inconsistent in what he shows. Alone in his Journey to Namek the weighted Clothes alone would have one 100x Gravity at least 10 tons. And that's not the highest weight have him ever seen do as feet of strength. The highest is much earlier in Dragonball Classic the giant Boulder he and Krilin has to push before they're very first Tournament. I made the math even with the lightest Rock this Boulder was over 40 tons.
@@Genya2008 in super while training to attain blue Goku and Vegeta lifted weights equal to 40 tons. They have also done 60. Back then early db no definately, but he did do that. If you say it doesn't count because he was training to get blue, you haven't seen super.
That’s not possible because Akira the great Toryiama had not invented Cell yet🧞♀️. It was an improvised move out of bad character writing (according to the editors not me😊) since 18 & 17 sucked as atrocious villains . I like them but they were not climactic w/ how Trunks was freaking everyone out w/ his premonition🧝🏾♀️
@@Darkside-bv2zh exactly🤤I remember going through that logic when I realised there was something fishy about SSj3 running out of energy like that so he couldn’t use it on Vegeta but only on Fat Buu, it was weird…and they re-used that rule against Kid Buu again how Goku looses his energy bc of that improvised transformation. But that gave a reason for everyone to help in against Kid Buu though 🚬
I mean the real reason why 19 and 20 were dealt with so easily is because they were already marked as "lame" by Toriyama's editor so he had to put them down quickly to get to the "real" arc villains (also later seen as lame by his editor, which is why we got Cell instead)
Thank you for posting this. I always see videos of people trying to rationalize why a something happens one way and not the other in shows and movies but forget that it is just what the story calls for to progress it or it is editors not liking the way the story is going.
And to top it off semi perfect cell is cell supposed final form but deemed too ugly by editor, which is why I guess cell max stuck at semi perfect level
No. That's a misconception, it wasn't his editor, it was his ex-editor. He saw the manga just like any other reader and gave Toriyama a call requesting he changes them. It makes no sense if he was his actual editor, you know an editor's job is to keep a cohesive story? What sense does it make to allow him to publish 19 and 20 to then remove them in the next issue? Same with 17 and 18. Toriyama had no obligation to listen to him, but I guess he appreciated the feedback or agreed on it somewhat and went for it.
The bigger plot hole is cell states that gero was able to get samples from freiza and king cold during trunks fight, which involved trunks going super saiyan and then Goku comes back and literally transforms into a super saiyan in front of trunks gero should have known as cell states it later on
I don’t know if that’s a plot hole. Present Gero had known nothing about the encounter with Trunks and Freeza. Had no info on Trunks and no info about SSJ. So possibly those spy robots just didn’t relay the info at that point. What is a plot hole is Cell mentioning Trunks when there was no time traveler that came to his timeline. That Cell would be from the original tl so it would’ve been Goku who killed Freeza and King Cold not Trunks.
@@Schizo_Ty cell still says he has cells from Frieza and king cold meaning gero’s robot bugs must have collected samples from them I think it was poor writing and toriyama simply forgetting the only purpose those cells served was cell surviving in space after blowing up
@@OceanGroupGamer Yes I’m aware he has Freeza’s cells. Which is why I mention the only outcome is at the TIME Gero doesn’t know about it. Cell would obviously know because he is from the future and the Super computer would relay all the information for him. Gero isn’t from that future. There’s a huge chance he just doesn’t know about SSJ because the info wasn’t relayed at that point. Cell also doesn’t blow up in space. He blows up on King Kai’s planet which is in Other World. Toriyama gave him Freeza’s cells because Freeza is one of the strongest fighters in the universe and his evilness is going to play a part of Cell’s personality. I don’t think he forgot, but more so just didn’t keep it consistent. Cell comes after Gero, and Toriyama writes by the seat of his pants. Gero not recognizing Trunks and not recognizing SSJ makes complete sense when you realize Cell wasn’t thought up of at the time. No mention of the spy robots seeing the fight between Trunks and Freeza or what Cell should be saying, Goku and Freeza (since he is from a different future) when Gero saw Goku go SSJ for the first time.
Butterfly Effect. When you drop a small rock in a cup of water, ripples result from it. Cell coming back in time from another parallel timeline where he kills Trunks and steals the time machine already sent ripples in the timeline. In Trunks' timeline, Goku used instant transmission instead of a spaceship to return to Earth, and must have been either strong enough in base to kill them both, or the transformation destroyed Gero's machines.
Very weird because also during piccolo vs cell the spy bots were still around but yet when Goku came back to earth to kill Frieza and king cold Goku didn't go ssj to kill them??? If so gero would have known about it@@Schizo_Ty
Just because dr gero didn't see a power lever doesn't mean he couldn't reach it. Why would he only want to match gokus power and not completely pass him up
The point is Goku’s power on earth and Gero reference point would have been a power of under 50K. Goku after SSJ etc was at least 3000x stronger than he was when he fought Vegeta on earth. How and why was Gero able to create the androids that powerful it’s completely absurd.
@@Goodie7I don’t like videos like this they’re thinking way too hard. It’s a show, the worlds most powerful super computer is going to try to make the world strongest thing if that’s what it’s made to do😂 why are we putting logic behind an anime?
Actually, future trunks never specifically said "Androids 17 and 18". He just said 2 androids would appear. As he didn't know about the other androids appearing since he was just a baby when they appeared.
In the German dub he speaks about Android 19 and 20, is then surprised that they're not the twins and then we learn they're still called 17 and 18 in the future means Trunks fucked up some numbers. It's so weird
@@aurorasdrawingcorner In the manga he also says 19 and 20 The anime left out specific numbers because Toei knew about 17 and 18 (Which makes it odd the German dub put them back in, lol. . . Or maybe it was specifically Funimation taking the numbers out in the English dub. . Potentially just because they didn't really know what numbers were in the Japanese? Probably not since they got it right while the androids were on screen. I think the German dub just re-introduced the plot hole for giggles)
Vegeta lost due to the same reason he said he'd lose to Gero after he defeated 19. He lost a lot of energy. Sure, you can say that the fight didn't last long enough for that to seem plausible, but he was in that form since before the androids were activated. If i recall correct, Vegeta didn't power down after he took the senzu. He did later on, but powered up yet again all while not taking another senzu. He hadn't mastered the form yet, so his battery was steadily dropping whilst 18 has infinite energy. Even Piccolo stated that Vegeta was losing energy with every move he made. Vegeta also used a large ki blast that destroyed a truck, but there's another potential waste of power there, and another big bang attack in the fight, thus dropping him to beneath 18. And Piccolo fused with Kami, boosting him beyond a super saiyan. It makes sense to me since basically every fusion we've seen gives a ridiculous exponential boost
You kind of answered your own question. It's because 17 and 18 had unlimited Ki and stamina, unlimited guys...Keyword. That is why they were stronger than the Saiyans, Gero messed up and overpowered 17 and 18 tha'ts why he was against activating them until he was forced to.. he messed up and overpowered 17 and 18 so he had to shut them down after turning them into Androids. Too powerful to control. The legendary Super Saiyan was the strongest in the universe no mortal or alien could beat it, so making something artificial to defeat it actually makes sense. When its artificial you can modify it as much as you like. Secondly if you really think about it, Earths technology has always been superior to Alien technology in the Dbz world..A Namekian spaceship takes a month to arrive to Namek, a Saiyan ship probably a little faster, but Dr Briefs ship got you there in 6 days..Plus creating a gravity room inside the ship which can go up to 450 times Earths gravity, so it's not far fetched to create an Android that is super powerful. Lastly are you a really calling Piccolo vs 17 a dumb fight? It's agreed amongst almost every fan that the fight was one of the best in the series, come on dude , really smh.
At the time the gravity could only go up to to 100 x earth gravity but still. Also earth was the only planet able to create a radar that can locate the dragonball as. But to be fair Bulma and her dad are just super intelligent
The ship Goku used to get to Namek was powered by the engine from Nappa's space pod. It wasn't earth technology. Also, the Namekian ship was the one used to get Proto Kami to earth, meaning that it's several hundred years old by the time it's seen.
@@markvanpopering4598 But the point is.. it was Dr Briefs influence, technology and brilliance that made the Saiyan pod even more advanced than what it was to begin with, it was even more advanced than a normal Saiyan pod, Which proves in the dbz world Earths technology is still far superior. You can only create something more advanced if you have the tools to do it, no Saiyan has ever made a pod as great as Dr Brief even though they Saiyans had access to multiple ships, Dr Briefs only needed one single broken ship and pretty much had to rebuild the whole thing from scratch, not only did he significantly improve the ship but the time frame it took him to build it from scratch is pretty impressive, it proves Earths technology was more advanced, all the Saiyan pod did was give him the blueprints on how to go about making a more powerful ship.
I think he's underestimating how intelligent Dr. Gero is. If I know my opponent is a 10, and I need to defeat him, I would not stop at 15, I'd try to max out as high as possible. Get up to 50 minimum. In addition, Gero would also have seen in his research how quickly Goku increases his power through each battle, this man would be the worst scientist ever to not give ample buffer room for the kid that went from fighting armies to being possibly planet busting.
I think the plot hole is more that the earlier made androids 16, 17, and 18 are so significantly stronger than the later made 19 and 20 that it makes no sense, why can 18 break Vagetas arm and walk away from the fight with only a torn up jean jacket whilst the android he made right after her got its arms literally torn off by the same Vageta? I mean really go back and watch both fights and think about how little sense it makes for 19 to be so outmatched and for 16-18 to be absolute worlds stronger than super saiyan.
@@Jay71k that's still not an example of a plot hole. Android 2 does not to be stronger than android 1. There could be loads of reasons for this. Getting back to your example, it was explained in DBZ that 19 was designed to be a power draining android, so as to make him more controllable. 17 and 18 were too strong and independent, which made them ineffective weapons. So Gero planned to recycled them into power ups for Cell. So from a plot perspective Gero motivation was not just to make stronger androids than the last but to make better weapons.
@@kinganarkzie I do remember him saying they were too independent and it was trouble, but the reason I point this out is because even if 19 was designed to be weaker, why wouldn't he make himself even close to the strongest he could? The smartest scientist in the world didn't think to make himself as strong as possible or at the very least stronger than his own inventions? Him being too independent wouldn't be an issue like it was for 17 and 18, whether he chose to make 19 and 20 infinite energy or energy draining it still makes absolutely no sense for him to choose to take such a substantial drop in strength for himself for seemingly no reason. Imagine if he made himself the same power as 17 and android 19 had the power of 18, who was slightly weaker than her brother. Now, whether or not he chooses the infinite energy or energy draining route, he's the strongest android, 19 still has minimal emotion and self direction, and they're strong enough to wipe out the Z fighters. I just can't fathom Gero being incapable of thinking that up or making it happen.
The androids thing is pretty simple, they are that strong because Gero was able to make them that strong. It's not like while he's making the androids, he just wanted them to just be stronger than goku, he would make them as strong as he can, which ended up being significantly stronger. Also he is able to do this because he is a genius when it comes to this stuff. Doesnt make it a plot hole.
Yeah he's probably even more intelligent and scientifically gifted than even Dr. Briefs and Bulma, who created capsules and a time machine, respectively.
I think the thing is, Gero monitored Goku's progression. Not just his power. He knew that that KaioKen x4 was no where near Goku's limit. He knew that Goku, a young man, would increase at the same rate if not at a faster rate than he already has been. And then to see vegeta, who was stronger than Goku, most likely with the same growth potential...Gero buffed those Androids to the absolute zenith of his scientific abilities in hopes that it would be enough. Luckily enough for him...he made them strong enough to defeat the super saiyan he knew nothing about
The heart virus became rampant in the future. Its not a ssj thing it mightve mutated from the saiyans and went widespread across the earth but it wasn't just for the saiyans
That's... That's not what a plot hole is... Just because you think a character isn't capable of doing something doesn't make it a plot hole. A plot hole would be if Gero said something like, "During my work, I ensured that my androids are twice as strong as you were against Vegeta ahahah!" And then we see them somehow packing up Super Vegeta and Goku with ease, when they're clearly more than 2x as strong as they were back then. And it's strange to question how Piccolo is able to fight 17 when Piccolo was able to keep up with Frieza's second form on Namek, an insane feat, and in the time since, he has been shown to be constantly training. He's essentially a Namekian God in the making from everything on Namek, that's why he was able to easily ascend to new heights with Shenron's power in Dragon Ball Super Hero. Of all the Z-Fighters that aren't a saiyan, Piccolo has literally always been the one whose tried the hardest and strived for greater heights. You're also forgetting how the Saiyans ruled on Planet Vegeta. They were subservient peasants essentially, who conquered planets with meager power levels and were never truly tested. That's why it was so easy for Frieza and his minions to make them bow. There's literally no reason to introduce the heart virus as some kind of MacGuffin to explain why nobody went Super Saiyan before Goku (/Bardock) when we see the reason is simply that they sucked and were weak in the overall scheme of things. So weak that a lowly Saiyan warrior of Earth could defeat their prince. So, yes, once Super Saiyan started to become more prominent, because their enemies became strong enough to warrant it, Saiyans across the universes began to achieve the form-- and in the case of the Universe 6 Saiyans, it's clear that being around or fighting a Super Saiyan helps them ascend as well, like it stirs the genes within them awake and helps them to reach greater heights. It makes a lot of sense when you think about the Super Saiyan God ritual as well, how it requires five righteous-hearted Saiyans (honestly the righteous-hearted thing is probably not actually a requirement) to essentially awaken the sixth Saiyan with their ki. That's clearly not the actual requirement for going SSJ God, as Vegeta simply achieves the form through training, but it's a fast and "easy" way to awaken it because Saiyan genes yearn for battle and surpassing their limits. I swear Dragonball fans can't comprehend the very simple story of Dragonball, it's impressive. Unless you're just clickbait or rage farming, then I guess good work.
On the Piccolo thing, did the creator of this video even pay any attention to what is stated multiple times during the Freeza saga, about how if he were to merge with Kami he could've defeated Freeza?
Android 16 had been created with the sole purpose of easing Dr. Gero's grief. However, it's not surprising to see there be no plot hole when concerning Android 17's capabilities. Not only is designed to be the most promising of Gero's creations but his and 18's battle skills were consistently adapting and based on mental fucking and strategy.
@@young_shaad5227 Not just that but Gero purposely made him gentle. He also uses the same model as android 17 and 18 but is weaker then them since he's artificial like android 19.
@@alexzero3736 I'm kinda perplexed at what could have happened during the time where Trunks grows up to be as old as Gohan was when his father died. Do they just turn the blind eye to what happened to civilians, because frankly if they showed up in front of the android they would get killed, or get involved in some sick game the Androids make them play.
@@alexzero3736 I mean, given how powerful the androids are, what did Gohan and Bulma actually do under those times when Trunks and Gohan were too young. Even if they want to help others, they are not powerful enough. I'm not saying they are heartless.
@@alexzero3736 The androids have to have a twisted liking to Gohan or even Trunks, because there's no way they would let them live, assuming that they went out of their way to help others as soon as they can fight capably.
YESS HOW, I'VE BEEN WONDERING THAT FOR YEARSSS. The explanation I got was that samples for frieza and cold were collected by the super computer. And he didn't check it for some reason
@@peacockmusicpageTrust me, people treat what TFS says as gospel. There are people out there that genuinely think Goku is a bad father. You can blame TFS for that.
Not a plot hole, the answer is: *BECAUSE OF FRIEZA* showing up on Earth, Gero had the drones scan that battle too. (That's how Cell gets Frieza and King Cold's DNA) - Remember these Androids were made because of Goku and Piccolo specifically. Goku and Piccolo were threats to the Earth, (because Goku defeated the entire army by himself and King, Piccolo took over the world as king) thus, he wanted to make Androids that could defeat them. - 2nd thing is the only difference from Trunks time and present time is because Trunks shows up to defeat Frieza, 2 things happen: 1- Cell goes to that timeline and slightly causes delay in Goku getting the virus. 2- the other thing is that 17 and 18 were awoken prior to the 3 years BUT they were out of control so he put them back to sleep. (And also remember that 17 and 18 were kidnapped and modified into 17 and 18) Gero knowing about Trunks and Frieza (mainly Frieza) made it so he knew they had to be even stronger. So he put them back to sleep and kept working on them after he had finished 19. Also makes more sense with FighterZ explaining the work on 16 and why he was stronger than 17 and 18 18 was still weaker than Vegeta but as stated Vegeta was burning outta energy when she wasn't. Also when Piccolo fights 17 later he realizes that the Android's strength is capped, that they cannot get stronger during battle.
The real reason Gokus heart disease got delayed is that he hasn't fought king Cold. He definitely wouldn't finish finish Cold instantly like Trunks did, so Cold had an opportunity to transform, and Colds final form, if we take example from the difference between Freezas 2nd and final form, is evenly matched to Goku. So this hard fight made his disease spread faster, just like we've seen in his battle with Android 19
I like to believe that he didn't just monitor how strong goku got. He took into account the rate of his growth. Remember with kaioken times 4, he is roughly 21 times stronger than raditz within a year. The strongest opponents he faced was oozaru vegeta. Keeping that in mind as well 4 more years of training with higher levels of kaioken, gero went above and beyond and made the androids strong enough
Agreed! Android 17/18 were just normal, power level 5 orphans who Gero modified heavily. I had also wondered what would have happened if Gero modified someone with a higher base level power (I.e. Tao?)
@@StephenDallas-n8v No, Gero specifically gave android 17 and 18 models, it was called the infinite energy model. The set back on this model is it did not put the host under complete control under Gero because android 17 and 18 still had their humanity and were rebellious. He was forced to shut them down and was going to continue to find a way to subjugate them at a later time. Android 16 also uses the same model as them but he is easier to control because he's artificial and was made after his dead son he also made him gentle. This is also the time he found out how to fuse cells together and started his work on Cell which would utilize android 17 and 18 to help perfect it since they were rebellious and could cause trouble down the line. This is why he created another artificial android android 19, told it to put his brain into android 20 and the model he chose for not just his but android 19 were the absorbing energy models which were older and weaker models but can grow in strength by absorbing ki.
@@TommyNitro haha, the manga industry isn’t known for planning long term. They make it up as they go by the seat of their pants. Believe it or not, some works by Tolkien were written in a similar serialized format via weekly segments in newspapers. Same with Charles Dickens and Jan Austin. That’s why their books were so long (not because of their huge writing genius).
@@NAzo. the only issue with the idea that the models are locked in at a specific power level is that in DB Super they shared that the androids were capable of growing their strength like other fighters. That’s why I bring up other warriors getting the mod who might have had more of a natural knack for growth anyways.
My best assumption is that Gero calculated Goku at his absolute theoretical max; Kaioken X4 + Ozaru + anger boost And he most likely had some sort of chart showing progression so he could’ve predicted some strength based on the predictions he made
The argument in universe is that cell coming back in time changed a bunch of things. The reality is that Toriyama was constantly being hounded by his editor to make changes so theres so many inconsistencies in the android and cell saga. Hell in the manga theres a huge inconsistency because it clearly shows that Trunks was refering to android 19 and 20 originally when talking to Goku, then he comes back to the past again and is like "Who dat? Because the editor thought they were dumb, but he already wrote and drew the chapter so he just lazily pretends it didnt happen.
The reason vegeta lost from 18 because she don't run out of stamina, if a dbz fighter is tired and the person he fighting is not then. There is no wsy they winning the fight. Piccolo made it clear already on why he lost the fight already.
I understand that point, however, in the show Vegeta was still fresh off a sensu bean after his fight with Gero and 19. Now, you can make the point that the form was still relatively new and he was losing stamina as he used the form, but I don't think just him being slightly tired would be a viable reason why she was able to dawg walk him while 17 and piccolo were evenly matched when they fought later. Still a fair point tho
@@kadu-kunif Piccolo would have fought 18 instead maybe he would have won, since 17 is stronger than 18. ✊🏻Either way 16 being stronger than all of them was a nice plot twist when he went to fight Imperfect Cell…the season got soo good during that moment. Probably the climax of DBZ when Cell was transforming ✌🏼
@@kadu-kun the reason is simple she was stronger , she easilly also knocked trunks out if i remember , it not rocket science , trunks and vegeta were about the same stength and lost against the androids , meaning android were stronger .
@@kadu-kunthey all got dawg walked the first time they faced 17 & 18 tho. Piccolo only matched up on par with 17 AFTER fusing with Kami later on. Not sure that comparison works
I don’t think that explaining Goku’s heart disease as a trait every saiyan should have is a good idea. Why apply it to the whole race? It’s clear super saiyan was rare bc it was hard to achieve and Frieza would have killed anyone he thought could achieve it. No need to over complicate it.
I started DBZ back when the Android arc started and then lost cable at the start of the Majin Buu arc. I still hold this show in extremely high regard. Toriyama got mega respect from me.
Here's what I know: The Super Saiyan transformation required a particular power level, as well as a certain amount of S- Cells. None of the Saiyans on Planet Vegeta had even remotely close to the power level needed. Goku had three Zenkais that happened almost back to back. Two on his way to Namek, and the final one prior to his faceoff with Frieza. That allowed him to reach the level needed to transform. It was often mentioned in the anime that the first Saiyan to transform couldn't control his power and died from it. Goku's heart virus is unique to him. There has been speculation that it's because of Goku overusing the Kaioken that he has the virus. King Kai told him not to overuse it because it's too much of a strain on the body. However, we all know how simple Goku is.The Super Saiyan transformation accelerated the progression of the virus in the timeline we all know. Now, why do we have so many Super Saiyans? Gohan has always been one with incredible potential, and has been keeping up with the adults in the series. Gohan was stronger, even if for a second, against Raditz than Goku and Piccolo combined. It's natural that he got the transformation. Goten and Trunks received all the S-Cells from their fathers since they were already Super Saiyan themselves. That's probably why they were able to transform so easily. I don't know about the other Goku and Vegeta from the end of GT and I don't care about the Saiyans from the other universe. As far as Android 19, we don't know if it's just because of the change in the timeline, or if the future also had Android 19 and 20, and then were killed by the Z warriors, but then defeated by 17 and 18. 17 and 18 were always difficult for Gero to control. It doesn't change the fact that in both timelines, the androids were far stronger than a Super Saiyan. Piccolo had fused with Kami prior to facing 17. Piccolo fused with an already defeated and borderline dead Nail and was able to go hit for hit against 2nd form Frieza. It makes sense that the Namekians get way stronger by fusing than they do training. I'd say a bigger plot hole is why didn't the much stronger Namekians fuse and defeat Frieza and his goons with that power.
I think it’s likely the namekians knew that either they wouldn’t be strong enough, OR, they just didn’t have the time to do it since the frieza force would suddenly show up. All the strongest were able to be handled easily enough by the frieza force, there was really only one super strong namekian and that’s why he was stationed with guru. Piccolo being leagues above everyone was the only one who they could fuse with and have a chance of winning
@@torunho07 I believe piccolo was probably around 50k. Nail was 42k and he was above. Nail was the strongest fighter and leagues above everyone else so they only one who could compare and stand a chance was piccolo
S-Cells? Goku had three "Zenkais"? Why have I never heard of these terms? Did they start popping up in the Super series or something? Kinda reminds me of how the mystery of the force in Star Wars was ruined by being overexplained.
@@Seanidor it's Saiyan lore that was explained in Z with the Saiyans arriving. It didn't matter in Dragon Ball, otherwise Goku would have received a massive Zenkai to match Raditz. When a Saiyan is mortally wounded and recovers quickly, their power increases. It's a sort of cheat code of a Saiyan.
9:03 They show in Dragonball that it doesnt take that much training time for gifted fighters to reach new heights quickly. The saiyans are all gifted and so is piccolo. Also Toriyama always included a plot device to explain why characters got super strong fast, thats why it makes sense for piccolo to be fighting on par with 17 because he fused with Kami and they had already shown how effective namekian fusion is.
Well. Lets see. 13 14 and 15 Have a movie. Cooler landed on earth at some point. There are a few movies like bojack that land somewhere between. Trunks vs frieza existed. Goku did go ss1 vs trunks. Goku vegeta and friends DID train for the upcoming androids POST trunks arrival had 3 years to train. Vegeta tried to get to super ss1. Goku had his frieza victory base power during training. He may have used ss1 occasionally. So it makes sense that gero's computer would be making the androids in OUR time around post frieza goku in kaoiken strength. Aka less than Ss but stronger than kaioken. Which is why vegeta can clap 19/20 but not 16/17/18. Also the androids are being built while gero is attacking the city still. So 16 is probably far stronger as he is the last to open and sees 3 supers not just 1. Trunks changed the time line by coming back and not killing the spy drones.
they recently confirmed in dragonball daima that the reason goten and trunks as well as others generations down is due to "the calmer an enviroment the easier it is to transform into a super saiyan" so people like cabba, goten, trunk that live in a calm enviroment are born with more S-cells which cause them to reach ssj with little to no emotional stress.
It’s called exponential growth. Something that an average person is capable of understanding. Dr. Gero is a genius so just because YOU are incapable of thinking of such a concept doesn’t mean he isn’t. He expects to lose again and again because he already has. He has a back up for his back up because he has already experienced it and compensates for it. Example…CELL.
6:38 i mean there are quite a few instances of technology being able to outdo fighters in the series. Gero literally invented a perpetual energy device. I dont think it really qualifies as a plothole when trunks points out a lot of other things different from his timeline. The real answer is just like folks said on here toriyama was making it up as he went along. The in universe answer is time travel shenanigans
Cell reveals to piccolo when they fight after his fusion with kami , cell admits that the bots have been watching them and taking samples and updating the computer to that day and even showing the bug following them
One thing I always thought was crazy was the fact that scientists on Earth could actually create beings more powerful than Frieza, a brutal space dictator that most of the universe feared.
Two possibilities at your question by 5:40 Dr Gero (in the altered timeline, which then became the main one) continued to gather data after the battle with Future Trunks and Frieza/King Cold. Due to the league of absence the Z fighters had during the Namek saga, Dr Gero had focused on his Android development and less on surveillance/additional research. However, upon detecting the battle his drones only come upon the aftermath, detecting foreign DNA and this is where he recovers Frieza's and his fathers DNA. Realising the potential this carries, and how no one else BUT the Z fighters would have been capable of defeating some other living organism with huge energy potential in its very cell's, Dr Gero is forced to alter his plans. Remember, he still had another three years to alter his plan. He is also on par with or greater than Dr Briefs of Capsule Corp in terms of his intelligence and ingenuity. So he adjust the Androids and Cell based on his new discoveries and hardens the androids even more, not to mention the fact that they have an unlimited energy potential as Dr Gero has successfully managed to harness the power of THE SUN in an energy source for them using a fictional form of nuclear fusion. So this explains how the Android's were so powerful to begin with. Second reason. Everyone talks about Trunks first trip back in the timeline and this alters things - which is evident because of the Z fighters having the foreknowledge of the Androids, but also with different Androids present here that were not present in his timeline. The reason why theres a wider variety of Androids in the altered (main) timeline, is because of Trunks visit which shifted events, places, ideas etc. In that timeline. It also meant that if/when Goku, Piccolo and Trunks trained outside, that Dr Gero would have continued to compile data on them. Goku obviously never used the Super Saiyan with Piccolo and Gohan because it would have been far too much for them to handle at this stage. And this explains why Dr Gero still had no data on Goku (and Vegeta) being Super Saiyans (with Vegeta's transformation taking place off of earth also).
The reason they are more powerful is because he gave them infinite ki and stamina. They were so powerful he shut them down. They were too strong for him to handle. Theres no plothole.
Then why was he confused about super Saiyan in the first place? How would he know that trunks is a Saiyan? Im fairly sure he didn't know that frieza was landing until later
@kadu-kun With the context available to him, he didn't know Trunks was a saiyan and therefore wouldn't recognize "Super Saiyan". All that he knew was that a powerful fighter defeated another powerful fighter, and could update his androids with whatever information he gathered. Of course, this is with the revelation of Trunks vs Frieza being captured on footage by RR.
@@lilian6613He could have retrieved cells from his remains / ashes after Trunks kills Frieza. Trunks entering this timeline caused a butterfly effect that led to the androids becoming more powerful and the invention of cell.
@kadu-kun The anime explains it. The computer he built was programmed to work on its own with zero intervention. Even if Dr. Gero died, the computer will keep working along with the scout robot to keep collecting data and bio-material to nurtur Cell. Meaning that if Dr. Gero, for whatever reason, was unaware of the SSJ vs. Freeza battle on earth, the computer and scout were.
From a meta perspective, some of the problem can be explained by the executive meddling done during the Android Saga, given that Toriyama intended 19 and 20 to be the androids Trunks had warned about, but because of feedback from his editor he pivoted to 17 and 18, then Cell, then rushed through Cell’s transformations.
@@amunrarebirth5511 the only part was how are the androids stronger than super Saiyan. Which is true a lot of people say that but when he brought up heart disease being part of super Saiyan transformations that where I drew the line.
@@micahsilago801Take the legacy element out of the equation and look at the character of Goku Goku wasn't poisoned, it was a disease. Depression is a form of disease, by which a whole host of physical medical problems can stem Imagine what it's like to be an animal caught in the brush. As an instinctive being, your whole mode is what you can do to not be caught out in the open. The moment you lose your mobility, you are exposed. In some cases going from a predator to prey in mere moments. My larger point being that your biological chemistry can shift and alter your composure Goku became a predator out of necessity. There was no turning point in the fight where he willed himself into proper form and viability in order to change the tide. He literally had a psychotic break spurned on by anger and losing control Compound this by copious amounts of training and blunt force trauma from Vegeta, and Frieza (Piccolo depending on how we concern his body composition post mortem). And we know that he has a drive to attain physiological unlocks in the form of senzu type medicine. It's only been a few occasions where Goku has made a recovery using time. Goku's ticker has kind of been a crucial element throughout the course of Dragonball. For whatever reason, his makeup seems to want to override damage or a rational response to it. We see this when he won't give up against Roshi, or when he maxes out against Piccolo Sr, or when he multiplies the Kaioken As a fighter, Goku seems to have his sights on overclocking. And I personally can't tell whether this him throwing things at the wall as an artist or just his genetics acting unconsciously. Either way it stands to reason that bearing the load of power, then furthering that into legend has lent itself to decay. It only takes one bad tear to turn 20 inch arms into deflated husks. Why not the SSJ merit? Seems to me, considering that the Saiyan of legend destroyed himself in anger, that using such a primordial force is a precursor to decay. How often do you hold anger to the chest without some form of negative feedback? I know that when I'm angry, my ability to work safely is compromised and I make many more mistakes. You can use anger in quick succession to overcome hurdles in an arduous task, but holding it? I guess I don't see why it wouldn't compromise health
You're missing the big point that there was are several dozen leaps in power over the recent time of Z. Before Z, Piccolo was the threat, with that power immediately being dwarfed in a way that OG DB didn't yet showcase, via Raditz. After Raditz, you have Vegeta who is over 10x stronger than Raditz. Gero is making the read that their powers will continue this exponential curve, and for the writer's sake, that allowed him to keep up with Super Saiyan. Even if Kaioken doesn't increase, he's fully expecting every one of the Z Fighters to continue gaining strength. The scene of Gero tearing a hole through Yamcha was actually supposed to portray this, seeing as he did indeed get stronger from before, but sadly, it just adds to the exhibit of Yamcha getting hoed. In terms of the training they went through, Vegeta's power goal wasn't to surpass the Androids. His goal was to eclipse the Super Saiyan barrier, and that ended up resulting in Grades of the form that heavily surpass the Androids. You are right about the rarity of Super Saiyan primarily because they didn't explain the science of it; they should have actually used S Cells WITHIN the story. We have people like Bulma, but I think ultimately, it's the personification of not enough time. Bulma would take Raditz' scouter while showing no interest in alien DNA? Just seems weird is all. It cries out the concept of not being capable of writing a character smarter than yourself, but only because there wasn't enough time to reach the conclusions her character logically would. The ironic thing is, Dragon Ball's plot holes tend to be a culmination of several factors in the same way that their story points tend to be a culmination of everything beforehand. It's like the ultimate hit-or-miss
Bulma at the time was a tech engineer, why would she be interested in dna. That is not her field of expertise. Writing what you know is making a scientist who is an expert in all fields. Which apparently AT did since bulma found tge cure to the heart virus
@@sonnywoods6846 Bulma’s field of expertise??? That changes nothing about what I said, considering she is the very plot device used to drive part of the story forward. She has multiple expertise, and all I was implying is it’s a possibility to use as someone who is married to an alien. Would you not be curious about the differences between a Sapien and a Saiyan as a person with the IQ and general intelligence of Bulma?
Naw he did equate this in his point, but there is no way that them fighting at 20-30,000 and max 50,000. To keep anticipate the potential growth would have only lead him to 200k maybe 500k max! There is no way he could have legitimately anticipated the leap in power scale of Frieza that completely wild. The androids should not have been able to beat 3rd for From which is well over 5mill let alone his final Max! And even more crazy the androids were stronger by a long shot then the being stronger then Frieza, the Super Saiyans??! Who sit at 160Million?! Impossible. Lmao 😅
@@amunrarebirth5511 Idk bout that logic. Gero has data as early as Piccolo, and if you pay attention to each multiplier to each next villain, you can see what I’m pointing out. What a lot of you fail to realize is that these characters aren’t training to be equals, but to HEAVILY SURPASS them. It was unprecedented to Gero that he would even need 18 and 17, with their issues primarily being the fact that they defy his programming. Piccolo would be somewhere in the 300 range, showing a 5x to Raditz’ bare minimum of 1,500, showing a 120x jump to Vegeta’s 180,000 in the Great Ape form. We know thanks to 16’s technology that their energy levels were likely monitored throughout, and the recent leap would have been within a year’s span. It is more than anticipated that he would have to at least be in the millions, but that he would go the safe step and push it to the hundreds of millions. The half human Cyborgs, 17 and 18, as well as 16 are each more than enough of a showcase. Also, it was that one notion of “why didn’t Gero just focus on one Android” that feels just a little crazy. If he didn’t do everything he was doing up to that point, he seriously wouldn’t have gotten that far. Think about the fact that Gero also individually discovered the concept of fusion power boosts, even if being absorption based. Imperfect Cell could more than double his power by absorbing basic people. If people caught on to the hidden parallel Toriyama intended, all the way up to Superhero itself, it’s that Gero doesn’t entirely believe himself to be evil. He also ends up increasing the power of his androids via making other androids multiple times. It even got repeated in the movie. It’s the dark parallel to Goku reforming the evil warriors he fights.
@@_WiZ420 all i said was akira toriyama was writing what he knows. Wasn't trying to change anything. Most people don't know the difference between an engineer or a biologist which is why bulma who should only be a tech genius was able to cure a viral disease. Because all toriyama knows is that she is smart so she can do anything including things outside her field of expertise
Here's the most logical solution to this point which I came to terms with after re-watching DB enough times over the decades: -> Freeza and Cold arrive on Earth in Age 764 -> Goku confronts both after using IT to appear on Earth before his "Ginyu Force Special Edition" Saiyajin space pod arrives there -> fighting 2v1 it's probably not a reach to say that Goku didn't beat them fast but had a long battle against them since he has the habit of "playing with his food" -> Goku stays alive from Age 764 until November 766 where the Heart Disease gets him -> meaning Dr Gero had at least 2 years to process the new data about Super Saiyajin that his spy drones collected -> as a result the Androids had the strength to overtake Super Saiyajin ⬆️ all of this applies for the Timeline of Future Trunks Now since Trunks dealt with Freeza and Cold fast by "not playing with his food", since he is just built like that, Dr. Gero's spy drones weren't able to pick up on SSJ strength, even the "SSJ Goku SSJ vs Future Trunks sparring match" apparently didn't provide enough data, meaning present Timeline Dr. Gero must have clutched with estimates about how strong Goku possibly could get and somehow ended up making the Androids even stronger than they were in Trunks' Timeline. Anything else would be too much of a reach Edit: Bulma didn't invent the medicine. I really hate the trend of Dragon Ball fans thinking that Bulma can just create anything after watching too many of them "What If ..." scenarios on RUclips here, totally forgetting about brilliant people like Dr. Briefs (Bulma's dad) and others existing in the DB verse
Nah Goku knew what they were there for and would want to risk as little collateral as possible after what went down on Namek. I really think he beat them just as fast as Trunks did.
@@hitkid2456 Nah, I think too much dubbed dbz has rotted your understanding of Goku's character, he absolutely would've milked that fight. I doubt it was necessarily a long one though considering how much stronger he was than trunks.
Bro you should do a podcast or twitch on this, the convos would be live and push your viewers farther; the comments of this RUclips don’t really make it amicable to have this discussion when I know they would be fire.
@@SkullZGaming_ power scaling was very important during the Sayan & Namek Saga , & during Androids & Cell Saga it changed bc it’s a different arc. Gero took samples from Frieza & his father for Cell, so why would 18 have to be weaker than Frieza? Power Levels is not storytelling during that arc see what I mean?😅. Also the Androids are not built like Sayans. SSJ was effective for the previous arc, not for the Androids, Akira wanted to move on from that. Gero is a tougher Villain than Frieza, that’s why😪 18 was toying w/ Vegeta the whole time. It wasn’t even about running out of energy like Piccolo mentioned🤔 in the video it explains that Goku would have found ways to increase his Kaioken, so Gero built Cyborgs that were thousand times stronger to those possibilities as precautions. Right? Even if Gero was surprised by Vegeta going✨super Sayan I think he says that it doesn’t really matter that much, bc his precautions against Kaioken Multipliers mounts up to something that is higher than a Super Sayan 🚬 seeing as how 17 scanners work as a scouter, using it to determine he was stronger than 16…hints that gero has some sort of measurement to calculate Goku’s strength; on Earth it was like 8000 so Gero made the androids 60-70,000 times stronger, which is why they were so 🎃scary & unstable (limitless artificial ki) SSJ was a mythical legendary transformation that just boosts a saiyans power to an incredible point⚡️, and the androids were already limitless in power too, only difference is that one of them runs out of energy. Then they added the multipliers and put it down to being only 50x base , somewhat, I can’t get all the exact measurments right Lololol every saiyan became too dependent on their transformations to fight, their base form getting stronger is key to making super saiyan stronger, for instance frieza would have been stronger than super saiyan had goku not received a zenkai boost that brought him from 90k to 3 million🤖🤖I have a giant headache now lmaof 🤣🤣
Dragon Ball's plot was always about overcoming and surpassing, so anything after Freiza had to be stronger than Freiza. Just like anything after Cell had to be stronger than Cell, which was Majin Buu.
As far as I know, the only argument I can see is that Dr Gero was able to get data on when Freiza arrived on Earth in his meta form right before Trunks stomped him. It was in the manga at least.
I like to think the reason the saiyans were so comparatively weak outside the main group was because their base was so strong compared to other races. This means they never got injured for the zenkais and never had a real reason to train, with Frieza taking out any that showed too much promise. This would explain the lack of ssj.
This was no plot hole. Dude, you have never heard about the Z gene and how “it becomes unlocked.” As the heart disease happened, it’s because Goku never really rest whenever he was traveling planets. Think about, go to gym none stop every 3 hours and see if you don’t feel your heart and maybe brain have weird palpitations. End of story. Why did 17 picked up a close fight with Piccolo? Because Piccolo absorbed Kami out of all people! How could 18 break Vegeta’s arm? Because she had an already heightened level.
The reason 18 could break vegeta arm, is because she (who’s energy doesn’t run out) allowed vegeta to get tired before she kicked him with her full power
4:00 well if he saw goku and vegetas fight on Earth, he calculated he neded Android 1000 times stronger and with unlimated energy , he build cyborg Tao Bei Bai after all i dont see this being a big Plot hole
All the things that irritated us at 12 year old kids. Toriyama is actually a really non consistent writer, but we all ignored it since the show "got us" so we didn`t care. But I remember all the points you made we made as 12 year old kids in the park while discussing the show. There are also at leas 100 more major plot holes, but yeah, we still love it :)
@justlol7281 "The Androids Awake!" (目め覚ざめた１７号ごう、１８号ごう, Mezameta Jūnanagō, Jūhachigō, lit. "No. 17 and No. 18 Are Awakened") is the one hundred fifty fifth chapter of Dragon Ball Z and the three hundred forty-ninth overall overall chapter of the Dragon Ball manga. Gero, inside his lab, says that he would have preferred not to activate 17 and 18, but that he has no choice now, and hopes that he has fixed the problem that the androids have. Lmao
@@notoscarthegrouch “fixed the problem that the androids have” is that what ur saying proves he made them stronger for super saiyan? Idk if that’s what that means…
@justlol7281 Dr. Gero had some micro cell extractors that took DNA from Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, King Cold, and Piccolo. Cell says he came back to this time when he was made by killing the Future Trunks and taking his ship. He turned himself into larvae and waited for four years until all the power came back. Piccolo asks why he came back here, and Imperfect Cell said it was to absorb Android 17 and Android 18 to become complete. The Remote Tracking Device is an extremely intelligent tracking device disguised as a ladybug. It was created by Dr. Gero to study Goku and the Dragon Team and gathered genetics from the greatest fighters to create Cell. It could also remotely transmit the cells to the computer. The computer that Cell was waiting for 17 and 18 to be updated by because if he absorbed them before the update, they would be too weak.
Dr. Gero made 17 and 18 way too strong, which was he believed was the reason he couldn’t control them, he made Android 19 totally loyal by creating him from scratch, and when he turned himself into an android he made himself stronger than 19 but at the end of the day he still was no where near 17 and 18’s strength. He was scared of his own work, after he finished converting himself into an android he probably planned on leaving 17 and 18 in stasis until Cell hatched
he wasn't finished with the androids , 17 was acting up so he shut him off with the remote but 17 waited till he got released out of his pod to kll gero .
@@crisalcantara7671 Hero ended up giving in the main timeline and made 19 and then converted himself, all this happened in the timeline where Goku stayed alive, there was never a timeline where 19 and 20 were explicitly stated to be in trunks’ timeline, except in the original unedited manga, it’s strange that Gero didn’t make himself stronger because he was quickly dispatched like he was nothing to them. While it was great for a dramatic plot, it gives us more questions than answers to the full story
You have a good idea going but you're missing details like the uploader. The reason why Gero couldn't control android 17 and 18 was because of the android model he used on them which was a newer model called infinite energy. The set back on these models was it was too difficult to control because the host (17 and 18) still maintained their humanity. This model was also much stronger. So while he shut them down this is also when he figured out how to fuse cells together and started his work on Cell. This is where because of the nature of 17 and 18 were uncontrollable they would be used to perfect Cell in its transformation that was as a back up plan to defeat Goku but not just towards him towards Earth for the destruction of the Red Ribbon Army. He also created android 16 using the same model as 17 and 18 but since it was artificial it was easier to control which is why he intentionally made it gentler not only because of that it was also to resemble his son who died in the Red Ribbon Army killed in action which is why when android 17 free's him after noticing his model was the same as theirs but that he was also weaker then him because Gero when he runs to his lab after android 19 gets unalived (it's artificial) had no choice but to turn 17 and 18 on and commands them to attack the Z fighters. They first asked Gero a question if the model he and 19 had which were absorbing energy models which were older models which is why Gero chose it instead of the infinite energy model. After this they get rid of Gero knowing they were stronger.
A big part of why there were no super saiyans on planet Vegeta is because the form (before the back tingly crap) required an intense feeling of rage that saiyans in the Frieza Force would never really encounter. They were sent to conquer planets that were several magnitudes beneath them, and they were encouraged on their planet not to form any emotional attachments, so they never had anything to be angry about. What made Trunks and Goten so angry they were able to transform? Probably nothing, that was from a period of time when Toriyama had stopped taking the series seriously and was likely meant purely as a gag.
5:46 18 wasn’t stronger than vegeta. They seemed pretty much equal but vegeta got cocky and underestimated his opponent. At least my thoughts anyway. 🤷🏽♂️
18 was much stronger than Vegeta. The androids were so much stronger than anything they faced before that it made piccolo fuse with Kami and made the saiyans use the Huperbolic time chamber.
@@LectricVonThunder I respect your opinion. We all thought the same about jiren tho and turned out that he was no stronger than blue lvl. I know it’s a different person but using that as an example.
@@JayyyTheGr8_JMNG What? Respectfully, where are you getting this from, bro? Jiren washed blue form in every appearance it made in the TOP. It took mastered UI Goku to even be able to actually box with Jiren. Unless you're talking about the manga's continuity which is a totally seperate canon that i honestly dont care about.
@@JayyyTheGr8_JMNG Also, remember that the main timelines Androids were even stronger than the one's from Trunk's timeline. Piccolo after he fused with Kami is the most powerful Z fighter until the Saiyans train on Kami's lookout, Vegeta damn near had an emotional breakdown when he sensed his ki, and even he was just about dead even with 17.
@@LectricVonThunder I do agree that 17 was stronger no doubt but I still feel like 18 and vegeta were pretty even. Just to be partial, I would give room that she was a tad bit stronger but not by much. Just my opinion.
from the dbz wiki. "Saiyans who have a gentle spirit gain more S-Cells, but when a Saiyan increases their battle power, they steadily gain more S-Cells. Once the Saiyan has enough S-Cells, a feeling such as strong anger or sadness can transform a Saiyan into a Super Saiyan." so one reason there weren't more super saiyans is that kindness is a reason goku got his, which saiyans did not have much of inherently, nor the luxury to gain it as a combat force
@@Mrniceman2 Gero left the process of Cell's production to his supercomputer after he got the preliminary work done, seeing that the project would take several years otherwise. Gero's supercomputer collected the genetic material from Freeza and king Cold, and I believe the computer believed it had sufficient Saiyan data and Gero himself just didn't look in on the progress at all that's the explaination given I think
If 17 and 18 had the same Ki absorbing hands and absorbed the Z fighters strongest beam attacks then it wouldve made sense that their power level would become higher than them. But Gero somehow making androids stronger than freeza out of normal teenagers, having infinite energy is some huge bs😂and we know the editors made tori change the cell saga a lot so all these inconcistencies makes sense i guess.
BS based on what? Youre just saying you cant imagine Gero making Androids that strong, but why? Hell, Frieza was just born as strong as he was with no training.
@@LectricVonThunder bc the last android he made was barely kid goku level and then he makes beyond super saiyan level androids somehow Even though he didnt even saw what happened at namek, last data he had was the vegeta fight And also he made those strong androids out of normal ahh teenagers The only one that makes sense with his power level is Cell bc he has DNA from saiyans and freeza
Not only that, but there’s a recipe on how to do it now. Like someone creates a new cake flavor that has never existed before, so good that person begins to teach others to do it, or someone has a taste and figures out how to make it themselves. Now that cake is sold world wide, that’s how I see it
"Super saiyan disease"? The heart virus wasnt a super saiyan related disease (or saiyan for that matter). They (piccolo) even tell yamcha to take the medicin just in case he gets infected by goku, when he moves goku from the battle field.
I know its not a "super sayian disease." I am stating that it would interesting that the disease would be an interesting plot point if it happened because of the transformation.....
Because he gained data and cells from Frieza and his father. Although we're never really given an explanation other than he's a genius and gave them infinite energy, I always assumed that the data he gained on however cyborg Frieza functioned is what allowed him a scientific breakthrough large enough to create cyborg humans that strong. Specifically, if cyborg Frieza is stronger than base (final form) Frieza, then that must mean that the cybernetic enhancements are stronger in some aspect than his body. So, in this scenario, you get a base form slightly stronger than final form Frieza. Then you get to the infinite energy drive. Energy (Ki) in the dragon ball universe also reinforces one's physical ability, both in strength and durability. We see the androids using Ki based attacks and techniques, so they can use whatever energy the drives produce to a similar effect as normal Ki, although clearly not to the drive's fullest potential since the attacks aren't infinitely strong. The way I see it, they're just using their Ki unconsciously to reinforce an already massively strong body, but can't make themselves invulnerable or insanely powerful without focusing and concentrating their energy, i.e. energy barrier and ki blasts
Theres MANY more plot holes in the trunks timeline: 1) Why did trunks only go back in time to give goku the heart medicine if he knew it wouldnt effect the future timeline in any type of way? and why didnt trunks pick the strongest Z fighter or some type of help so they could go back in time and help trunks defeat cell and the androids, Trunks could of easily picked piccolo to fuse with kami, picked the hyperbolic time chamber, or pick others to get stronger and team up to fight in trunks future timeline. 2) Why didnt goku or the Z fighters from otherworld help trunks and future gohan during the fight with the androids? There is absolutely 0 excuse why they didnt join in to help. 3) Trunks and future gohan should of 100% received a significant zenkai boost during the years of fighting the androids. 4) Cell had more then enough time to absorb the androids in the future. 5) Why didnt trunks use the namek dragon balls to wish any of the Z fighters back especially goku, Or atleast wish for the androids to be gotten rid of, Theres so many wishes you can do with the namek dragon balls. 6) Everything about the future trunks story makes absolutely 0 sense and its not logical.
The thing is they didn't KNOW the location of new namek, so there is a SLIGHT chance they could've found it. Second off Porunga wouldn't have been able to get rid of the Androids because they'd be stronger than him Third, He went back in time to find a possible WEAKNESS for the androids before they arrived, even then he didn't know if him going back in time would've changed events
@@denickart The thing is, they can't JUST go to King kai's place, They have to get permission from King Yemma and with all the dead souls coming, I doubt that they'll be able to talk to King Yemma
Not to mention they could have used dragon balls to instantly wish goku back to full health leaving heart virus null. They had 3 years to make use of wishes before the androids, and I didn't see a one 🙄
@@thescratchanimator570Doubt it. If the amount of souls got to the point that King Yemma was having trouble keeping up with them he would've sent some fighters to take care of the androids like he did with Buu.
so vegeta vs 18 has been answered in interviews. they where equal in power, she couldnt just outright break his arm out the gate it took time to wear him down. the stamina factor is what they site as the problem that happened there and vegeta was equal in power so much so it surprised trunks how well his father was doing on his own and started to think maybe this can be possible.
Gero was going to build his machines as strong as they were regardless of whether or not he know about Super Saiyan. Gero was written to mirror Goku except evil. While Goku can train and fulfill his desire to get stronger, Gero also has an insatiable lust for power. He built 19 and converted himself but continued to build stronger and stronger models. He wasn't ready to release 17 & 18 in the present timeline because they were still a work in progress regarding his ability to control them. He then had Cell on the back burners to increase work volume but he knew even before he had created 19 and his android body of how powerful Cell would become. He creates for the sheer purpose of breaking his previous limits. He even alludes to this when his automated voice speaks to Cell in the alternate timelines during Cell's flashback while fighting Trunks: "...that is the beauty of your design. You will always have an insatiable appetite for power, much like my own." If Gero had lived to see Cell's birth he would've continued building stronger androids.
This is a prime example of Dragon Ball fans not reading. The reason why the androids are so strong is because they're mechanical. Frieza was stated to be even stronger bc his mechanical parts can handle more energy. Also the androids being strong wouldn't even classify as a plot hole
I think he's more so talking about the absurdity of human scientists being able to create machines as strong as super saiyains, also the fact that bulma doesnt make anrdroids to defeat any future villain is kinda of a plothole
@@zacbrown3797 I already explained the 1st point and the 2nd is irrelevant and not a plot hole. Heck, what would an android even do against Buu? You make no sense
@@Mavuika_Gyaru just make an android as strong as buu, heres another one bulma made a time machine instead of making a space ship to namek (to use the namekian dragonballs)
To answer this question it's more than likely because not being able to get tired of loose stamina can give you a dangerous advantage in the fight notice how at the beginning of Vegeta and Android 18's fight Vegeta actually has the advantage It's up until the middle of the fight he starts to get wearing down getting tired affects you.
The reason Super Saiyan was seen as a "Legendary" thing and no one could do it is because they thought Super Saiyan was a thing one would achieve upon becoming strong enough, like after a certain level of strength, something would just happen and boom, Super Saiyan. This is pointed out by the way Vegeta, in the Namek Saga, constantly believed himself to already be a Super Saiyan and at one point thought Goku achieved it. But no, in reality, Super Saiyan is something ANY Saiyan could achieve if they knew how. In the beginning of the Buu Saga, the series tried to tell us that Super Saiyan was not special in the form of Trunks and Goten achieving it at such young ages, but no one seemed to pick up on that, so decades later, in Super, they dumbed it down further by giving us the "Back Tingle" explanation, a Super Saiyan Tutorial that, if you paid attention, is the same type of explanation as the one Gohan gave Videl on how to harness and use Ki
Trunks going back in time (as well as Cell) changed the current situation of the timeline. That's the easiest explanation I heard and it's the one I roll with to this day.
His increase from raditz to vegeta was insane. I don't understand how trunks was able to hang with them after 4 years of training also wasn't data collected when frieza arrived
Wow guys! I really didn't think this video was going to do as good as it did! I'm glad all of you have liked, disliked, commented, and hated on the video. I want to keep trying with this so bare with me I hope you guys stick with me. Lets keep the conversations rolling!! Don't Forget to check out my other videos!!
@@jayzdawg3111 Thats what its all about and I didn't think this video was gonna do good at all. I was just spewing thoughts about the series that came into my head and just decided to have fun with it and threw the question out there knowing I might trigger some stans lol
@@kadu-kunFrom Radditz to Vegeta Goku got around 20x stronger without Kaioken.
If Gero made as math 1 year 20x stronger bye buildung the Androids it would have been those Numbers.
Against Vegeta 8000 one year later when the from Nappa killed got wished back a year has past Gero would then work with 160000. Another year pass Trunks kills Mecha Frieza Power Level with that Gero probably works is 3,2 Million.
Another 3 years are passimg till the Android Saga.
The numbers there would have been 64 Million, 1,28 Billion and 25,6 Billion with what Gero probably works.
Let us say Base for Vegeta is 600 Million then he would be as SSJ in 30 Billion Against Android 18 with around 25,6 Billion let us say 26 Billion.
Vegeta and 18 battled for a while and SSJ costs Energy so at the Beginning Vegeta maybe was a bit stronger but the Stamina Difference was to high and when Vegeta startet to get weaker it would have become more easy to Break His Arm.
The good doctor didn't need to study the saiyans to have that power, the androids are humans with infinite energy and super durable synthetic cells. Their strength has to do with their ki being unsensable, and being more like Superman's powers. Their energy field protects them from physics itself and powers them. Their strength is they don't get tired, but their raw strength is because well... Base saiyans couldn't even lift 40 tons back then, and these are metal and plastic people with muscles like ours but made synthetically. Their power is both because of how energy works in Dragonball, but because their bodies can't be hurt or damaged, and their attacks can use their muscles full strength, without ripping them apart.
You act like the androids got power by copying Saiyan cells, but their not like saiyans at all. Also, humans are better at using energy than saiyans are confirmed, so it could have to do with them being human at one point, and being given infinite energy usage. Whrn you can use unlimited energy and your energy is a weapon, you can hit infinitely hard my guy, but that's another plot hole.
But another way to put it is they have more than four times the ki of the saiyans, so the Saiyan attacks can't penetrate the ki barrier (guidebook statements for how energy functions in db)
@@richardfalus2873 Base not able to Lift 40 tons is because Toriyama was inconsistent in what he shows.
Alone in his Journey to Namek the weighted Clothes alone would have one 100x Gravity at least 10 tons.
And that's not the highest weight have him ever seen do as feet of strength.
The highest is much earlier in Dragonball Classic the giant Boulder he and Krilin has to push before they're very first Tournament.
I made the math even with the lightest Rock this Boulder was over 40 tons.
@@Genya2008 in super while training to attain blue Goku and Vegeta lifted weights equal to 40 tons. They have also done 60. Back then early db no definately, but he did do that. If you say it doesn't count because he was training to get blue, you haven't seen super.
Cell is the reason why Goku's heart disease got delayed because Cell is the reason why this timeline changed so much.
Goku had Covid. That is why it got delayed.
That’s not possible because Akira the great Toryiama had not invented Cell yet🧞♀️. It was an improvised move out of bad character writing (according to the editors not me😊) since 18 & 17 sucked as atrocious villains . I like them but they were not climactic w/ how Trunks was freaking everyone out w/ his premonition🧝🏾♀️
@@PrincessDesert well if that's the case then Goku didn't have SS3 when he fought Majin Vegeta
@@Darkside-bv2zh exactly🤤I remember going through that logic when I realised there was something fishy about SSj3 running out of energy like that so he couldn’t use it on Vegeta but only on Fat Buu, it was weird…and they re-used that rule against Kid Buu again how Goku looses his energy bc of that improvised transformation. But that gave a reason for everyone to help in against Kid Buu though 🚬
cell and trunks changed it , it's not hard to understand there is not plot sht .
I mean the real reason why 19 and 20 were dealt with so easily is because they were already marked as "lame" by Toriyama's editor so he had to put them down quickly to get to the "real" arc villains (also later seen as lame by his editor, which is why we got Cell instead)
Thank you for posting this. I always see videos of people trying to rationalize why a something happens one way and not the other in shows and movies but forget that it is just what the story calls for to progress it or it is editors not liking the way the story is going.
And to top it off semi perfect cell is cell supposed final form but deemed too ugly by editor, which is why I guess cell max stuck at semi perfect level
No. That's a misconception, it wasn't his editor, it was his ex-editor.
He saw the manga just like any other reader and gave Toriyama a call requesting he changes them.
It makes no sense if he was his actual editor, you know an editor's job is to keep a cohesive story? What sense does it make to allow him to publish 19 and 20 to then remove them in the next issue? Same with 17 and 18.
Toriyama had no obligation to listen to him, but I guess he appreciated the feedback or agreed on it somewhat and went for it.
@@AlexTCGProYT I thought his ex-editor was who he partially based Freeza on?
they were super lame. thank goodness they had very little screen time
The bigger plot hole is cell states that gero was able to get samples from freiza and king cold during trunks fight, which involved trunks going super saiyan and then Goku comes back and literally transforms into a super saiyan in front of trunks gero should have known as cell states it later on
I don’t know if that’s a plot hole. Present Gero had known nothing about the encounter with Trunks and Freeza. Had no info on Trunks and no info about SSJ. So possibly those spy robots just didn’t relay the info at that point.
What is a plot hole is Cell mentioning Trunks when there was no time traveler that came to his timeline. That Cell would be from the original tl so it would’ve been Goku who killed Freeza and King Cold not Trunks.
@@Schizo_Ty cell still says he has cells from Frieza and king cold meaning gero’s robot bugs must have collected samples from them I think it was poor writing and toriyama simply forgetting the only purpose those cells served was cell surviving in space after blowing up
@@OceanGroupGamer Yes I’m aware he has Freeza’s cells. Which is why I mention the only outcome is at the TIME Gero doesn’t know about it. Cell would obviously know because he is from the future and the Super computer would relay all the information for him. Gero isn’t from that future. There’s a huge chance he just doesn’t know about SSJ because the info wasn’t relayed at that point.
Cell also doesn’t blow up in space. He blows up on King Kai’s planet which is in Other World. Toriyama gave him Freeza’s cells because Freeza is one of the strongest fighters in the universe and his evilness is going to play a part of Cell’s personality.
I don’t think he forgot, but more so just didn’t keep it consistent. Cell comes after Gero, and Toriyama writes by the seat of his pants. Gero not recognizing Trunks and not recognizing SSJ makes complete sense when you realize Cell wasn’t thought up of at the time.
No mention of the spy robots seeing the fight between Trunks and Freeza or what Cell should be saying, Goku and Freeza (since he is from a different future) when Gero saw Goku go SSJ for the first time.
Butterfly Effect. When you drop a small rock in a cup of water, ripples result from it. Cell coming back in time from another parallel timeline where he kills Trunks and steals the time machine already sent ripples in the timeline. In Trunks' timeline, Goku used instant transmission instead of a spaceship to return to Earth, and must have been either strong enough in base to kill them both, or the transformation destroyed Gero's machines.
Very weird because also during piccolo vs cell the spy bots were still around but yet when Goku came back to earth to kill Frieza and king cold Goku didn't go ssj to kill them??? If so gero would have known about it@@Schizo_Ty
“There are no holes in the plot, only holes in your understanding”
-Scott Cawthon
Lmao what a lazy was of meatriding a series, do better💀
@@fireballstudiose
Demonstrably false.
"I don't even write my own stuff, I just let that theory guy make shit up for me"- Scott fnaf guy probably
I mean it’s true with some series ig, I think boruto is the perfect example.
A major plot hole in dbz is that Gohan was being beaten by the androids for 10 years and didn't get any zenkai boosts
Just because dr gero didn't see a power lever doesn't mean he couldn't reach it. Why would he only want to match gokus power and not completely pass him up
The point is Goku’s power on earth and Gero reference point would have been a power of under 50K. Goku after SSJ etc was at least 3000x stronger than he was when he fought Vegeta on earth. How and why was Gero able to create the androids that powerful it’s completely absurd.
@@Goodie7I don’t like videos like this they’re thinking way too hard. It’s a show, the worlds most powerful super computer is going to try to make the world strongest thing if that’s what it’s made to do😂 why are we putting logic behind an anime?
But the thing is gero DID want to completely pass goku up
Bro spied saiyan saga level beings just to be above frieza
he saw Goku's kaioken times 4 which has a PL of 24 000, Goku SSJ on Nameck has a power levl of 150 million, It's a huuuuuuuuuuuuugeeeeeee gap
@@user-vg8tv1hp9c
On the contrary, I don't think he's thinking *enough*, actually
Actually, future trunks never specifically said "Androids 17 and 18". He just said 2 androids would appear. As he didn't know about the other androids appearing since he was just a baby when they appeared.
In the German dub he speaks about Android 19 and 20, is then surprised that they're not the twins and then we learn they're still called 17 and 18 in the future means Trunks fucked up some numbers. It's so weird
Trunks fought them in the future. That's how he knew.
Unless I misunderstood your comment.
@@aurorasdrawingcorner
In the manga he also says 19 and 20
The anime left out specific numbers because Toei knew about 17 and 18 (Which makes it odd the German dub put them back in, lol. . . Or maybe it was specifically Funimation taking the numbers out in the English dub. . Potentially just because they didn't really know what numbers were in the Japanese? Probably not since they got it right while the androids were on screen. I think the German dub just re-introduced the plot hole for giggles)
Ffacctss !
@@lloydcantuii2887 The Future Z Fighters probably (barely) defeated Future 19 and 20.
That 17 and 18 were later awakened (after Goku died).
Vegeta lost due to the same reason he said he'd lose to Gero after he defeated 19. He lost a lot of energy. Sure, you can say that the fight didn't last long enough for that to seem plausible, but he was in that form since before the androids were activated. If i recall correct, Vegeta didn't power down after he took the senzu. He did later on, but powered up yet again all while not taking another senzu. He hadn't mastered the form yet, so his battery was steadily dropping whilst 18 has infinite energy. Even Piccolo stated that Vegeta was losing energy with every move he made. Vegeta also used a large ki blast that destroyed a truck, but there's another potential waste of power there, and another big bang attack in the fight, thus dropping him to beneath 18. And Piccolo fused with Kami, boosting him beyond a super saiyan. It makes sense to me since basically every fusion we've seen gives a ridiculous exponential boost
He took a sensu beam after the fight against 19
@lilian6613 Dragonball fans not beating the allegations
@@BrandonCSB ?
@lilian6613 if you read my comment, you'd know I already mentioned the senzu bean. I said he took the bean, then powered back into a super saiyan
Vegeta destroying a truck is completely irrelevant when they can destroy planets with ease.
You kind of answered your own question. It's because 17 and 18 had unlimited Ki and stamina, unlimited guys...Keyword. That is why they were stronger than the Saiyans, Gero messed up and overpowered 17 and 18 tha'ts why he was against activating them until he was forced to.. he messed up and overpowered 17 and 18 so he had to shut them down after turning them into Androids. Too powerful to control. The legendary Super Saiyan was the strongest in the universe no mortal or alien could beat it, so making something artificial to defeat it actually makes sense. When its artificial you can modify it as much as you like.
Secondly if you really think about it, Earths technology has always been superior to Alien technology in the Dbz world..A Namekian spaceship takes a month to arrive to Namek, a Saiyan ship probably a little faster, but Dr Briefs ship got you there in 6 days..Plus creating a gravity room inside the ship which can go up to 450 times Earths gravity, so it's not far fetched to create an Android that is super powerful.
Lastly are you a really calling Piccolo vs 17 a dumb fight? It's agreed amongst almost every fan that the fight was one of the best in the series, come on dude , really smh.
At the time the gravity could only go up to to 100 x earth gravity but still. Also earth was the only planet able to create a radar that can locate the dragonball as. But to be fair Bulma and her dad are just super intelligent
The ship Goku used to get to Namek was powered by the engine from Nappa's space pod. It wasn't earth technology. Also, the Namekian ship was the one used to get Proto Kami to earth, meaning that it's several hundred years old by the time it's seen.
Preaching
As a dragon ball fan I don't bite on this theory fam.
@@markvanpopering4598 But the point is.. it was Dr Briefs influence, technology and brilliance that made the Saiyan pod even more advanced than what it was to begin with, it was even more advanced than a normal Saiyan pod, Which proves in the dbz world Earths technology is still far superior. You can only create something more advanced if you have the tools to do it, no Saiyan has ever made a pod as great as Dr Brief even though they Saiyans had access to multiple ships, Dr Briefs only needed one single broken ship and pretty much had to rebuild the whole thing from scratch, not only did he significantly improve the ship but the time frame it took him to build it from scratch is pretty impressive, it proves Earths technology was more advanced, all the Saiyan pod did was give him the blueprints on how to go about making a more powerful ship.
This is not a plot hole, he just made a very strong android.
Exactly what I was saying there is no plot hole 😂
I think he's underestimating how intelligent Dr. Gero is. If I know my opponent is a 10, and I need to defeat him, I would not stop at 15, I'd try to max out as high as possible. Get up to 50 minimum.
In addition, Gero would also have seen in his research how quickly Goku increases his power through each battle, this man would be the worst scientist ever to not give ample buffer room for the kid that went from fighting armies to being possibly planet busting.
I think the plot hole is more that the earlier made androids 16, 17, and 18 are so significantly stronger than the later made 19 and 20 that it makes no sense, why can 18 break Vagetas arm and walk away from the fight with only a torn up jean jacket whilst the android he made right after her got its arms literally torn off by the same Vageta? I mean really go back and watch both fights and think about how little sense it makes for 19 to be so outmatched and for 16-18 to be absolute worlds stronger than super saiyan.
@@Jay71k that's still not an example of a plot hole. Android 2 does not to be stronger than android 1. There could be loads of reasons for this.
Getting back to your example, it was explained in DBZ that 19 was designed to be a power draining android, so as to make him more controllable. 17 and 18 were too strong and independent, which made them ineffective weapons. So Gero planned to recycled them into power ups for Cell.
So from a plot perspective Gero motivation was not just to make stronger androids than the last but to make better weapons.
@@kinganarkzie I do remember him saying they were too independent and it was trouble, but the reason I point this out is because even if 19 was designed to be weaker, why wouldn't he make himself even close to the strongest he could? The smartest scientist in the world didn't think to make himself as strong as possible or at the very least stronger than his own inventions? Him being too independent wouldn't be an issue like it was for 17 and 18, whether he chose to make 19 and 20 infinite energy or energy draining it still makes absolutely no sense for him to choose to take such a substantial drop in strength for himself for seemingly no reason. Imagine if he made himself the same power as 17 and android 19 had the power of 18, who was slightly weaker than her brother. Now, whether or not he chooses the infinite energy or energy draining route, he's the strongest android, 19 still has minimal emotion and self direction, and they're strong enough to wipe out the Z fighters. I just can't fathom Gero being incapable of thinking that up or making it happen.
The androids thing is pretty simple, they are that strong because Gero was able to make them that strong. It's not like while he's making the androids, he just wanted them to just be stronger than goku, he would make them as strong as he can, which ended up being significantly stronger.
Also he is able to do this because he is a genius when it comes to this stuff. Doesnt make it a plot hole.
I think he’s basically baiting at this point… “why are the robots in a anime so strong it’s not realistic” 😂
Also he has friaza and king colds dna
@@user-vg8tv1hp9c
If that's his argument then he's dumb
Yeah he's probably even more intelligent and scientifically gifted than even Dr. Briefs and Bulma, who created capsules and a time machine, respectively.
Anyone wanna create an android with me? 😅😂 We can call her Siri 😂😂
I think the thing is, Gero monitored Goku's progression. Not just his power. He knew that that KaioKen x4 was no where near Goku's limit. He knew that Goku, a young man, would increase at the same rate if not at a faster rate than he already has been. And then to see vegeta, who was stronger than Goku, most likely with the same growth potential...Gero buffed those Androids to the absolute zenith of his scientific abilities in hopes that it would be enough. Luckily enough for him...he made them strong enough to defeat the super saiyan he knew nothing about
This makes the most sense
Fair, makes sense. I just think that him "guessing" the massize gap of power that goku would achieve on namek is a stretch
This is the correct answer
The heart virus became rampant in the future. Its not a ssj thing it mightve mutated from the saiyans and went widespread across the earth but it wasn't just for the saiyans
I don't think he said it was a ss virus he said it would be a good excuse to make it as a consequence for achieving ss
@jotinajero97 yea you're right
I don't respect community guidelines and this is a half-baked idea
That's... That's not what a plot hole is...
Just because you think a character isn't capable of doing something doesn't make it a plot hole. A plot hole would be if Gero said something like, "During my work, I ensured that my androids are twice as strong as you were against Vegeta ahahah!" And then we see them somehow packing up Super Vegeta and Goku with ease, when they're clearly more than 2x as strong as they were back then.
And it's strange to question how Piccolo is able to fight 17 when Piccolo was able to keep up with Frieza's second form on Namek, an insane feat, and in the time since, he has been shown to be constantly training. He's essentially a Namekian God in the making from everything on Namek, that's why he was able to easily ascend to new heights with Shenron's power in Dragon Ball Super Hero. Of all the Z-Fighters that aren't a saiyan, Piccolo has literally always been the one whose tried the hardest and strived for greater heights.
You're also forgetting how the Saiyans ruled on Planet Vegeta. They were subservient peasants essentially, who conquered planets with meager power levels and were never truly tested. That's why it was so easy for Frieza and his minions to make them bow. There's literally no reason to introduce the heart virus as some kind of MacGuffin to explain why nobody went Super Saiyan before Goku (/Bardock) when we see the reason is simply that they sucked and were weak in the overall scheme of things. So weak that a lowly Saiyan warrior of Earth could defeat their prince.
So, yes, once Super Saiyan started to become more prominent, because their enemies became strong enough to warrant it, Saiyans across the universes began to achieve the form-- and in the case of the Universe 6 Saiyans, it's clear that being around or fighting a Super Saiyan helps them ascend as well, like it stirs the genes within them awake and helps them to reach greater heights. It makes a lot of sense when you think about the Super Saiyan God ritual as well, how it requires five righteous-hearted Saiyans (honestly the righteous-hearted thing is probably not actually a requirement) to essentially awaken the sixth Saiyan with their ki. That's clearly not the actual requirement for going SSJ God, as Vegeta simply achieves the form through training, but it's a fast and "easy" way to awaken it because Saiyan genes yearn for battle and surpassing their limits.
I swear Dragonball fans can't comprehend the very simple story of Dragonball, it's impressive. Unless you're just clickbait or rage farming, then I guess good work.
On the Piccolo thing, did the creator of this video even pay any attention to what is stated multiple times during the Freeza saga, about how if he were to merge with Kami he could've defeated Freeza?
Android 16 had been created with the sole purpose of easing Dr. Gero's grief. However, it's not surprising to see there be no plot hole when concerning Android 17's capabilities. Not only is designed to be the most promising of Gero's creations but his and 18's battle skills were consistently adapting and based on mental fucking and strategy.
I thought android 16 was created out of love from his son??
@@arthurarzu5972
What do you think he's grieving?
@@Billyblue98cause he's a twink
Y'all are all wrong, he just design 16 after his son. That's all we officially know about it.@@Billyblue98
@@young_shaad5227 Not just that but Gero purposely made him gentle. He also uses the same model as android 17 and 18 but is weaker then them since he's artificial like android 19.
I never understood why he had to know about ssj, just make them as strong as possible
It's possible, but still sounds like Gero just found some cheat codes.
I hate it about DBZ and DBS, mindless powercreep.
@@alexzero3736 I'm kinda perplexed at what could have happened during the time where Trunks grows up to be as old as Gohan was when his father died. Do they just turn the blind eye to what happened to civilians, because frankly if they showed up in front of the android they would get killed, or get involved in some sick game the Androids make them play.
@@chupacabra-j2e who turned blind eye? No one actually could defeat androids, and army is useless in Dragon Ball.
@@alexzero3736 I mean, given how powerful the androids are, what did Gohan and Bulma actually do under those times when Trunks and Gohan were too young. Even if they want to help others, they are not powerful enough. I'm not saying they are heartless.
@@alexzero3736 The androids have to have a twisted liking to Gohan or even Trunks, because there's no way they would let them live, assuming that they went out of their way to help others as soon as they can fight capably.
Riddle me this. How could Gero have Freeza and Cold's DNA for Cell whilst simultaneously not knowing about super saiyan?
You literally made a statement that proves why this video is retarded
This one bothered me since I was a kid
YESS HOW, I'VE BEEN WONDERING THAT FOR YEARSSS. The explanation I got was that samples for frieza and cold were collected by the super computer. And he didn't check it for some reason
This isn’t a plot hole it’s plot armor. Which is new enemies of an arc are stronger than the previous enemies. The plot calls for this.
goku doesn't eat a sick alien on Yardrat to get instant transmission, that was an abridged thing they added for comedic effect.
Thats the joke.
@@Flipitmixit I get that, I just don't know if they do.
@saiyan4414 literally everybody knows even my 4 year old nephew
@@peacockmusicpageTrust me, people treat what TFS says as gospel. There are people out there that genuinely think Goku is a bad father. You can blame TFS for that.
@@vDeadbolt idk I blame them for perpetuating it but I'm certain the narrative was around long before TFS
so in 1984 there was this movie called Terminator…
Lol, the terminator started it all with time travel and saving people
0:04 Man that sound...
0:22 you mean this one..
@@nessbotno
Take me back😢
How do you even begin to imagine this sound as a sfx producer
The nostalgia it carries
Not a plot hole, the answer is:
*BECAUSE OF FRIEZA* showing up on Earth, Gero had the drones scan that battle too. (That's how Cell gets Frieza and King Cold's DNA)
- Remember these Androids were made because of Goku and Piccolo specifically. Goku and Piccolo were threats to the Earth, (because Goku defeated the entire army by himself and King, Piccolo took over the world as king) thus, he wanted to make Androids that could defeat them.
- 2nd thing is the only difference from Trunks time and present time is because Trunks shows up to defeat Frieza, 2 things happen:
1- Cell goes to that timeline and slightly causes delay in Goku getting the virus.
2- the other thing is that 17 and 18 were awoken prior to the 3 years BUT they were out of control so he put them back to sleep. (And also remember that 17 and 18 were kidnapped and modified into 17 and 18)
Gero knowing about Trunks and Frieza (mainly Frieza) made it so he knew they had to be even stronger. So he put them back to sleep and kept working on them after he had finished 19. Also makes more sense with FighterZ explaining the work on 16 and why he was stronger than 17 and 18
18 was still weaker than Vegeta but as stated Vegeta was burning outta energy when she wasn't. Also when Piccolo fights 17 later he realizes that the Android's strength is capped, that they cannot get stronger during battle.
3:55 props to you for using the Jak and Daxter soundtrack, its rare but awesome when my 2 favorite franchises mix
The real reason Gokus heart disease got delayed is that he hasn't fought king Cold. He definitely wouldn't finish finish Cold instantly like Trunks did, so Cold had an opportunity to transform, and Colds final form, if we take example from the difference between Freezas 2nd and final form, is evenly matched to Goku. So this hard fight made his disease spread faster, just like we've seen in his battle with Android 19
I like to believe that he didn't just monitor how strong goku got. He took into account the rate of his growth. Remember with kaioken times 4, he is roughly 21 times stronger than raditz within a year. The strongest opponents he faced was oozaru vegeta. Keeping that in mind as well 4 more years of training with higher levels of kaioken, gero went above and beyond and made the androids strong enough
Not really a plot hole. He just made insanely powerful androids. Thats it
Agreed! Android 17/18 were just normal, power level 5 orphans who Gero modified heavily. I had also wondered what would have happened if Gero modified someone with a higher base level power (I.e. Tao?)
@@StephenDallas-n8v No, Gero specifically gave android 17 and 18 models, it was called the infinite energy model. The set back on this model is it did not put the host under complete control under Gero because android 17 and 18 still had their humanity and were rebellious. He was forced to shut them down and was going to continue to find a way to subjugate them at a later time. Android 16 also uses the same model as them but he is easier to control because he's artificial and was made after his dead son he also made him gentle. This is also the time he found out how to fuse cells together and started his work on Cell which would utilize android 17 and 18 to help perfect it since they were rebellious and could cause trouble down the line. This is why he created another artificial android android 19, told it to put his brain into android 20 and the model he chose for not just his but android 19 were the absorbing energy models which were older and weaker models but can grow in strength by absorbing ki.
I disagree. It was clearly poor writing that was obvious to me as a kid.
@@TommyNitro haha, the manga industry isn’t known for planning long term. They make it up as they go by the seat of their pants. Believe it or not, some works by Tolkien were written in a similar serialized format via weekly segments in newspapers. Same with Charles Dickens and Jan Austin. That’s why their books were so long (not because of their huge writing genius).
@@NAzo. the only issue with the idea that the models are locked in at a specific power level is that in DB Super they shared that the androids were capable of growing their strength like other fighters. That’s why I bring up other warriors getting the mod who might have had more of a natural knack for growth anyways.
My best assumption is that Gero calculated Goku at his absolute theoretical max;
Kaioken X4 + Ozaru + anger boost
And he most likely had some sort of chart showing progression so he could’ve predicted some strength based on the predictions he made
The argument in universe is that cell coming back in time changed a bunch of things.
The reality is that Toriyama was constantly being hounded by his editor to make changes so theres so many inconsistencies in the android and cell saga.
Hell in the manga theres a huge inconsistency because it clearly shows that Trunks was refering to android 19 and 20 originally when talking to Goku, then he comes back to the past again and is like "Who dat?
Because the editor thought they were dumb, but he already wrote and drew the chapter so he just lazily pretends it didnt happen.
4:15 / 4:16 Man is your inner Frieza talking right here ? 😅 Jokes aside, really good video.
Lmao somtimes he tends to leak out from time to time 😅
The reason vegeta lost from 18 because she don't run out of stamina, if a dbz fighter is tired and the person he fighting is not then. There is no wsy they winning the fight. Piccolo made it clear already on why he lost the fight already.
I understand that point, however, in the show Vegeta was still fresh off a sensu bean after his fight with Gero and 19. Now, you can make the point that the form was still relatively new and he was losing stamina as he used the form, but I don't think just him being slightly tired would be a viable reason why she was able to dawg walk him while 17 and piccolo were evenly matched when they fought later. Still a fair point tho
@@kadu-kunif Piccolo would have fought 18 instead maybe he would have won, since 17 is stronger than 18. ✊🏻Either way 16 being stronger than all of them was a nice plot twist when he went to fight Imperfect Cell…the season got soo good during that moment. Probably the climax of DBZ when Cell was transforming ✌🏼
trunks litterly said that when he was observing the fight .
@@kadu-kun the reason is simple she was stronger , she easilly also knocked trunks out if i remember , it not rocket science , trunks and vegeta were about the same stength and lost against the androids , meaning android were stronger .
@@kadu-kunthey all got dawg walked the first time they faced 17 & 18 tho. Piccolo only matched up on par with 17 AFTER fusing with Kami later on. Not sure that comparison works
The fact that he made four androids stronger than the emperor of the universe 💀
I don’t think that explaining Goku’s heart disease as a trait every saiyan should have is a good idea. Why apply it to the whole race? It’s clear super saiyan was rare bc it was hard to achieve and Frieza would have killed anyone he thought could achieve it. No need to over complicate it.
I started DBZ back when the Android arc started and then lost cable at the start of the Majin Buu arc. I still hold this show in extremely high regard. Toriyama got mega respect from me.
So do I my friend. This show is a forever series for me
Me too
Here's what I know:
The Super Saiyan transformation required a particular power level, as well as a certain amount of S- Cells. None of the Saiyans on Planet Vegeta had even remotely close to the power level needed. Goku had three Zenkais that happened almost back to back. Two on his way to Namek, and the final one prior to his faceoff with Frieza. That allowed him to reach the level needed to transform. It was often mentioned in the anime that the first Saiyan to transform couldn't control his power and died from it.
Goku's heart virus is unique to him. There has been speculation that it's because of Goku overusing the Kaioken that he has the virus. King Kai told him not to overuse it because it's too much of a strain on the body. However, we all know how simple Goku is.The Super Saiyan transformation accelerated the progression of the virus in the timeline we all know.
Now, why do we have so many Super Saiyans? Gohan has always been one with incredible potential, and has been keeping up with the adults in the series. Gohan was stronger, even if for a second, against Raditz than Goku and Piccolo combined. It's natural that he got the transformation. Goten and Trunks received all the S-Cells from their fathers since they were already Super Saiyan themselves. That's probably why they were able to transform so easily. I don't know about the other Goku and Vegeta from the end of GT and I don't care about the Saiyans from the other universe.
As far as Android 19, we don't know if it's just because of the change in the timeline, or if the future also had Android 19 and 20, and then were killed by the Z warriors, but then defeated by 17 and 18. 17 and 18 were always difficult for Gero to control. It doesn't change the fact that in both timelines, the androids were far stronger than a Super Saiyan.
Piccolo had fused with Kami prior to facing 17. Piccolo fused with an already defeated and borderline dead Nail and was able to go hit for hit against 2nd form Frieza. It makes sense that the Namekians get way stronger by fusing than they do training. I'd say a bigger plot hole is why didn't the much stronger Namekians fuse and defeat Frieza and his goons with that power.
I think it’s likely the namekians knew that either they wouldn’t be strong enough, OR, they just didn’t have the time to do it since the frieza force would suddenly show up. All the strongest were able to be handled easily enough by the frieza force, there was really only one super strong namekian and that’s why he was stationed with guru. Piccolo being leagues above everyone was the only one who they could fuse with and have a chance of winning
@@Pizzagatetruecel was Piccolo that far ahead from them though? Because Nail was at like 40,000, and Piccolo on Earth was below or at 4,000.
@@torunho07 I believe piccolo was probably around 50k. Nail was 42k and he was above. Nail was the strongest fighter and leagues above everyone else so they only one who could compare and stand a chance was piccolo
S-Cells? Goku had three "Zenkais"? Why have I never heard of these terms? Did they start popping up in the Super series or something? Kinda reminds me of how the mystery of the force in Star Wars was ruined by being overexplained.
@@Seanidor it's Saiyan lore that was explained in Z with the Saiyans arriving. It didn't matter in Dragon Ball, otherwise Goku would have received a massive Zenkai to match Raditz. When a Saiyan is mortally wounded and recovers quickly, their power increases. It's a sort of cheat code of a Saiyan.
9:03 They show in Dragonball that it doesnt take that much training time for gifted fighters to reach new heights quickly. The saiyans are all gifted and so is piccolo. Also Toriyama always included a plot device to explain why characters got super strong fast, thats why it makes sense for piccolo to be fighting on par with 17 because he fused with Kami and they had already shown how effective namekian fusion is.
Well. Lets see.
13 14 and 15 Have a movie.
Cooler landed on earth at some point.
There are a few movies like bojack that land somewhere between.
Trunks vs frieza existed.
Goku did go ss1 vs trunks.
Goku vegeta and friends DID train for the upcoming androids POST trunks arrival had 3 years to train.
Vegeta tried to get to super ss1.
Goku had his frieza victory base power during training.
He may have used ss1 occasionally.
So it makes sense that gero's computer would be making the androids in OUR time around post frieza goku in kaoiken strength. Aka less than Ss but stronger than kaioken.
Which is why vegeta can clap 19/20 but not 16/17/18.
Also the androids are being built while gero is attacking the city still.
So 16 is probably far stronger as he is the last to open and sees 3 supers not just 1.
Trunks changed the time line by coming back and not killing the spy drones.
Fucking thank you. This video sucks. This guys sucks and his dumbass little character of himself sucks
they recently confirmed in dragonball daima that the reason goten and trunks as well as others generations down is due to "the calmer an enviroment the easier it is to transform into a super saiyan" so people like cabba, goten, trunk that live in a calm enviroment are born with more S-cells which cause them to reach ssj with little to no emotional stress.
It’s called exponential growth. Something that an average person is capable of understanding. Dr. Gero is a genius so just because YOU are incapable of thinking of such a concept doesn’t mean he isn’t. He expects to lose again and again because he already has. He has a back up for his back up because he has already experienced it and compensates for it. Example…CELL.
keep the plot twists coming. top job
6:38 i mean there are quite a few instances of technology being able to outdo fighters in the series. Gero literally invented a perpetual energy device. I dont think it really qualifies as a plothole when trunks points out a lot of other things different from his timeline. The real answer is just like folks said on here toriyama was making it up as he went along. The in universe answer is time travel shenanigans
Cell reveals to piccolo when they fight after his fusion with kami , cell admits that the bots have been watching them and taking samples and updating the computer to that day and even showing the bug following them
Best Dragon Ball channel and I peeped this a couple years ago lol like the way 18 pampered Vegeta is wild😂😂😂
One thing I always thought was crazy was the fact that scientists on Earth could actually create beings more powerful than Frieza, a brutal space dictator that most of the universe feared.
1:27 good lord that forehead😭😭😭😭
Truly he is the son of Vegeta!
Two possibilities at your question by 5:40
Dr Gero (in the altered timeline, which then became the main one) continued to gather data after the battle with Future Trunks and Frieza/King Cold. Due to the league of absence the Z fighters had during the Namek saga, Dr Gero had focused on his Android development and less on surveillance/additional research. However, upon detecting the battle his drones only come upon the aftermath, detecting foreign DNA and this is where he recovers Frieza's and his fathers DNA.
Realising the potential this carries, and how no one else BUT the Z fighters would have been capable of defeating some other living organism with huge energy potential in its very cell's, Dr Gero is forced to alter his plans.
Remember, he still had another three years to alter his plan. He is also on par with or greater than Dr Briefs of Capsule Corp in terms of his intelligence and ingenuity.
So he adjust the Androids and Cell based on his new discoveries and hardens the androids even more, not to mention the fact that they have an unlimited energy potential as Dr Gero has successfully managed to harness the power of THE SUN in an energy source for them using a fictional form of nuclear fusion.
So this explains how the Android's were so powerful to begin with.
Second reason. Everyone talks about Trunks first trip back in the timeline and this alters things - which is evident because of the Z fighters having the foreknowledge of the Androids, but also with different Androids present here that were not present in his timeline. The reason why theres a wider variety of Androids in the altered (main) timeline, is because of Trunks visit which shifted events, places, ideas etc. In that timeline. It also meant that if/when Goku, Piccolo and Trunks trained outside, that Dr Gero would have continued to compile data on them. Goku obviously never used the Super Saiyan with Piccolo and Gohan because it would have been far too much for them to handle at this stage. And this explains why Dr Gero still had no data on Goku (and Vegeta) being Super Saiyans (with Vegeta's transformation taking place off of earth also).
The reason they are more powerful is because he gave them infinite ki and stamina. They were so powerful he shut them down. They were too strong for him to handle. Theres no plothole.
The moment we start to question imperfect perfection, is the moment we descend into delusional chaos.
Great vid tho.
4:15 damn lmaooo put a lot of emphasis behind monkey their emperor frieza
Apologies....sometimes my inner emperor tends to leak out
😂😂😂😂😂😂I love saying MONKEY LIKE FRIEZA😂😂😂😂
@@Los4rmdagang4 I do it in my sleep...
Biggest plot hole is why Goku had to travel bag to earth on a ship when he just learned instant transmission.
I ALWAYS THOUGHT THEY COULD'VE JUST WISHED IT AWAY WITH THE DRAGONBALLS
The dragon balls can’t wish away natural diseases
@@Kahanamiactually it’s stated that it can’t bring back someone who died of natural diseases but maybe you could have wished it away?
Or at least 1) Wish for medicine and/or 2) Wish for Goku to be immortal
@@cadenlafever5293 or been clever with the wording and wished it onto Cell/Freiza
I always figured Goku unknowingly caught the virus causing his heart disease when he was on planet Yardrat.
He saw trunks turn super sayin and goku when frezia and king cold showed up
Then why was he confused about super Saiyan in the first place? How would he know that trunks is a Saiyan? Im fairly sure he didn't know that frieza was landing until later
@@kadu-kunSo why Cell has Frieza's cells??? How did Dr. Gero's Robot not see the super Saiyan who faced Frieza and his father??
@kadu-kun With the context available to him, he didn't know Trunks was a saiyan and therefore wouldn't recognize "Super Saiyan".
All that he knew was that a powerful fighter defeated another powerful fighter, and could update his androids with whatever information he gathered.
Of course, this is with the revelation of Trunks vs Frieza being captured on footage by RR.
@@lilian6613He could have retrieved cells from his remains / ashes after Trunks kills Frieza.
Trunks entering this timeline caused a butterfly effect that led to the androids becoming more powerful and the invention of cell.
@kadu-kun The anime explains it. The computer he built was programmed to work on its own with zero intervention. Even if Dr. Gero died, the computer will keep working along with the scout robot to keep collecting data and bio-material to nurtur Cell. Meaning that if Dr. Gero, for whatever reason, was unaware of the SSJ vs. Freeza battle on earth, the computer and scout were.
From a meta perspective, some of the problem can be explained by the executive meddling done during the Android Saga, given that Toriyama intended 19 and 20 to be the androids Trunks had warned about, but because of feedback from his editor he pivoted to 17 and 18, then Cell, then rushed through Cell’s transformations.
Yeah you are talking nonsense
Oh...🥲
Naw he is making a lot of sense actually
@@amunrarebirth5511 the only part was how are the androids stronger than super Saiyan. Which is true a lot of people say that but when he brought up heart disease being part of super Saiyan transformations that where I drew the line.
No.
@@micahsilago801Take the legacy element out of the equation and look at the character of Goku
Goku wasn't poisoned, it was a disease. Depression is a form of disease, by which a whole host of physical medical problems can stem
Imagine what it's like to be an animal caught in the brush. As an instinctive being, your whole mode is what you can do to not be caught out in the open. The moment you lose your mobility, you are exposed. In some cases going from a predator to prey in mere moments. My larger point being that your biological chemistry can shift and alter your composure
Goku became a predator out of necessity. There was no turning point in the fight where he willed himself into proper form and viability in order to change the tide. He literally had a psychotic break spurned on by anger and losing control
Compound this by copious amounts of training and blunt force trauma from Vegeta, and Frieza (Piccolo depending on how we concern his body composition post mortem). And we know that he has a drive to attain physiological unlocks in the form of senzu type medicine. It's only been a few occasions where Goku has made a recovery using time. Goku's ticker has kind of been a crucial element throughout the course of Dragonball. For whatever reason, his makeup seems to want to override damage or a rational response to it. We see this when he won't give up against Roshi, or when he maxes out against Piccolo Sr, or when he multiplies the Kaioken
As a fighter, Goku seems to have his sights on overclocking. And I personally can't tell whether this him throwing things at the wall as an artist or just his genetics acting unconsciously. Either way it stands to reason that bearing the load of power, then furthering that into legend has lent itself to decay. It only takes one bad tear to turn 20 inch arms into deflated husks. Why not the SSJ merit?
Seems to me, considering that the Saiyan of legend destroyed himself in anger, that using such a primordial force is a precursor to decay. How often do you hold anger to the chest without some form of negative feedback? I know that when I'm angry, my ability to work safely is compromised and I make many more mistakes. You can use anger in quick succession to overcome hurdles in an arduous task, but holding it? I guess I don't see why it wouldn't compromise health
What gets me is how does Cell have Frieza and Cold cells if Gero said he stopped stalking
You're missing the big point that there was are several dozen leaps in power over the recent time of Z. Before Z, Piccolo was the threat, with that power immediately being dwarfed in a way that OG DB didn't yet showcase, via Raditz. After Raditz, you have Vegeta who is over 10x stronger than Raditz. Gero is making the read that their powers will continue this exponential curve, and for the writer's sake, that allowed him to keep up with Super Saiyan. Even if Kaioken doesn't increase, he's fully expecting every one of the Z Fighters to continue gaining strength. The scene of Gero tearing a hole through Yamcha was actually supposed to portray this, seeing as he did indeed get stronger from before, but sadly, it just adds to the exhibit of Yamcha getting hoed.
In terms of the training they went through, Vegeta's power goal wasn't to surpass the Androids. His goal was to eclipse the Super Saiyan barrier, and that ended up resulting in Grades of the form that heavily surpass the Androids. You are right about the rarity of Super Saiyan primarily because they didn't explain the science of it; they should have actually used S Cells WITHIN the story. We have people like Bulma, but I think ultimately, it's the personification of not enough time. Bulma would take Raditz' scouter while showing no interest in alien DNA? Just seems weird is all. It cries out the concept of not being capable of writing a character smarter than yourself, but only because there wasn't enough time to reach the conclusions her character logically would.
The ironic thing is, Dragon Ball's plot holes tend to be a culmination of several factors in the same way that their story points tend to be a culmination of everything beforehand. It's like the ultimate hit-or-miss
Bulma at the time was a tech engineer, why would she be interested in dna. That is not her field of expertise. Writing what you know is making a scientist who is an expert in all fields. Which apparently AT did since bulma found tge cure to the heart virus
@@sonnywoods6846 Bulma’s field of expertise??? That changes nothing about what I said, considering she is the very plot device used to drive part of the story forward. She has multiple expertise, and all I was implying is it’s a possibility to use as someone who is married to an alien. Would you not be curious about the differences between a Sapien and a Saiyan as a person with the IQ and general intelligence of Bulma?
Naw he did equate this in his point, but there is no way that them fighting at 20-30,000 and max 50,000. To keep anticipate the potential growth would have only lead him to 200k maybe 500k max! There is no way he could have legitimately anticipated the leap in power scale of Frieza that completely wild. The androids should not have been able to beat 3rd for From which is well over 5mill let alone his final Max! And even more crazy the androids were stronger by a long shot then the being stronger then Frieza, the Super Saiyans??! Who sit at 160Million?! Impossible. Lmao 😅
@@amunrarebirth5511 Idk bout that logic. Gero has data as early as Piccolo, and if you pay attention to each multiplier to each next villain, you can see what I’m pointing out. What a lot of you fail to realize is that these characters aren’t training to be equals, but to HEAVILY SURPASS them. It was unprecedented to Gero that he would even need 18 and 17, with their issues primarily being the fact that they defy his programming. Piccolo would be somewhere in the 300 range, showing a 5x to Raditz’ bare minimum of 1,500, showing a 120x jump to Vegeta’s 180,000 in the Great Ape form. We know thanks to 16’s technology that their energy levels were likely monitored throughout, and the recent leap would have been within a year’s span. It is more than anticipated that he would have to at least be in the millions, but that he would go the safe step and push it to the hundreds of millions. The half human Cyborgs, 17 and 18, as well as 16 are each more than enough of a showcase.
Also, it was that one notion of “why didn’t Gero just focus on one Android” that feels just a little crazy. If he didn’t do everything he was doing up to that point, he seriously wouldn’t have gotten that far. Think about the fact that Gero also individually discovered the concept of fusion power boosts, even if being absorption based. Imperfect Cell could more than double his power by absorbing basic people. If people caught on to the hidden parallel Toriyama intended, all the way up to Superhero itself, it’s that Gero doesn’t entirely believe himself to be evil. He also ends up increasing the power of his androids via making other androids multiple times. It even got repeated in the movie. It’s the dark parallel to Goku reforming the evil warriors he fights.
@@_WiZ420 all i said was akira toriyama was writing what he knows. Wasn't trying to change anything. Most people don't know the difference between an engineer or a biologist which is why bulma who should only be a tech genius was able to cure a viral disease. Because all toriyama knows is that she is smart so she can do anything including things outside her field of expertise
I really enjoyed this video and most people don't look at it like this and I'm glad you kind of broke it down you was cooking❤
🥹🥹 Im trying lol. Thank you
Tricked me into a What if 😂
Keep these coming bro I like the channel
Thanks Bro!!
Here's the most logical solution to this point which I came to terms with after re-watching DB enough times over the decades:
-> Freeza and Cold arrive on Earth in Age 764
-> Goku confronts both after using IT to appear on Earth before his "Ginyu Force Special Edition" Saiyajin space pod arrives there
-> fighting 2v1 it's probably not a reach to say that Goku didn't beat them fast but had a long battle against them since he has the habit of "playing with his food"
-> Goku stays alive from Age 764 until November 766 where the Heart Disease gets him
-> meaning Dr Gero had at least 2 years to process the new data about Super Saiyajin that his spy drones collected
-> as a result the Androids had the strength to overtake Super Saiyajin
⬆️ all of this applies for the Timeline of Future Trunks
Now since Trunks dealt with Freeza and Cold fast by "not playing with his food", since he is just built like that, Dr. Gero's spy drones weren't able to pick up on SSJ strength, even the "SSJ Goku SSJ vs Future Trunks sparring match" apparently didn't provide enough data, meaning present Timeline Dr. Gero must have clutched with estimates about how strong Goku possibly could get and somehow ended up making the Androids even stronger than they were in Trunks' Timeline. Anything else would be too much of a reach
Edit: Bulma didn't invent the medicine. I really hate the trend of Dragon Ball fans thinking that Bulma can just create anything after watching too many of them "What If ..." scenarios on RUclips here, totally forgetting about brilliant people like Dr. Briefs (Bulma's dad) and others existing in the DB verse
Androids 17 and 18 were weaker in Trunk's timeline, implying Dr. Gero had to rush their development
Nah Goku knew what they were there for and would want to risk as little collateral as possible after what went down on Namek. I really think he beat them just as fast as Trunks did.
@@hitkid2456 Nah, I think too much dubbed dbz has rotted your understanding of Goku's character, he absolutely would've milked that fight. I doubt it was necessarily a long one though considering how much stronger he was than trunks.
Bro you should do a podcast or twitch on this, the convos would be live and push your viewers farther; the comments of this RUclips don’t really make it amicable to have this discussion when I know they would be fire.
I have been thinking about doing youtube streams doing these discussions. Should I do a community post for this stuff?
And this is the start of bs power scaling, two cyborgs (Android 17 and 18) stronger than Frieza was absolutely ridiculous to me😭😭
@@SkullZGaming_ power scaling was very important during the Sayan & Namek Saga , & during Androids & Cell Saga it changed bc it’s a different arc. Gero took samples from Frieza & his father for Cell, so why would 18 have to be weaker than Frieza? Power Levels is not storytelling during that arc see what I mean?😅. Also the Androids are not built like Sayans. SSJ was effective for the previous arc, not for the Androids, Akira wanted to move on from that. Gero is a tougher Villain than Frieza, that’s why😪 18 was toying w/ Vegeta the whole time. It wasn’t even about running out of energy like Piccolo mentioned🤔 in the video it explains that Goku would have found ways to increase his Kaioken, so Gero built Cyborgs that were thousand times stronger to those possibilities as precautions. Right? Even if Gero was surprised by Vegeta going✨super Sayan I think he says that it doesn’t really matter that much, bc his precautions against Kaioken Multipliers mounts up to something that is higher than a Super Sayan 🚬 seeing as how 17 scanners work as a scouter, using it to determine he was stronger than 16…hints that gero has some sort of measurement to calculate Goku’s strength; on Earth it was like 8000 so Gero made the androids 60-70,000 times stronger, which is why they were so 🎃scary & unstable (limitless artificial ki)
SSJ was a mythical legendary transformation that just boosts a saiyans power to an incredible point⚡️, and the androids were already limitless in power too, only difference is that one of them runs out of energy. Then they added the multipliers and put it down to being only 50x base , somewhat, I can’t get all the exact measurments right Lololol every saiyan became too dependent on their transformations to fight, their base form getting stronger is key to making super saiyan stronger, for instance frieza would have been stronger than super saiyan had goku not received a zenkai boost that brought him from 90k to 3 million🤖🤖I have a giant headache now lmaof 🤣🤣
Wtf no there's nothing wacky about it st all
Nah, I'd argue that power scaling was broken during the Freeza Arc.
Dragon Ball's plot was always about overcoming and surpassing, so anything after Freiza had to be stronger than Freiza. Just like anything after Cell had to be stronger than Cell, which was Majin Buu.
As far as I know, the only argument I can see is that Dr Gero was able to get data on when Freiza arrived on Earth in his meta form right before Trunks stomped him. It was in the manga at least.
Your point is valid great angle ! 🧐
I like to think the reason the saiyans were so comparatively weak outside the main group was because their base was so strong compared to other races. This means they never got injured for the zenkais and never had a real reason to train, with Frieza taking out any that showed too much promise. This would explain the lack of ssj.
This was no plot hole. Dude, you have never heard about the Z gene and how “it becomes unlocked.” As the heart disease happened, it’s because Goku never really rest whenever he was traveling planets. Think about, go to gym none stop every 3 hours and see if you don’t feel your heart and maybe brain have weird palpitations. End of story. Why did 17 picked up a close fight with Piccolo? Because Piccolo absorbed Kami out of all people! How could 18 break Vegeta’s arm? Because she had an already heightened level.
The reason 18 could break vegeta arm, is because she (who’s energy doesn’t run out) allowed vegeta to get tired before she kicked him with her full power
U put the jak and daxter music in the back??? Fire !!
Its my favourite game series!!
@@kadu-kun alr im subscribing for that 😂❤️ its def in my top 5 and my childhood
4:00 well if he saw goku and vegetas fight on Earth, he calculated he neded Android 1000 times stronger and with unlimated energy , he build cyborg Tao Bei Bai after all i dont see this being a big Plot hole
9:00 the second plot hole. In my opinion cell was weekend after the battle with Android 16 and Tien. Maybe Semi cell wasent in his Full power
All the things that irritated us at 12 year old kids. Toriyama is actually a really non consistent writer, but we all ignored it since the show "got us" so we didn`t care. But I remember all the points you made we made as 12 year old kids in the park while discussing the show. There are also at leas 100 more major plot holes, but yeah, we still love it :)
Gero updates the firmware of 17 and 18 when he learns of super saiyan. Also, the drones obtain both freiza and colds dna for cell.
When did he do that? Lmao
@justlol7281 "The Androids Awake!" (目め覚ざめた１７号ごう、１８号ごう, Mezameta Jūnanagō, Jūhachigō, lit. "No. 17 and No. 18 Are Awakened") is the one hundred fifty fifth chapter of Dragon Ball Z and the three hundred forty-ninth overall overall chapter of the Dragon Ball manga. Gero, inside his lab, says that he would have preferred not to activate 17 and 18, but that he has no choice now, and hopes that he has fixed the problem that the androids have. Lmao
@@notoscarthegrouch “fixed the problem that the androids have” is that what ur saying proves he made them stronger for super saiyan? Idk if that’s what that means…
@justlol7281 Dr. Gero had some micro cell extractors that took DNA from Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, King Cold, and Piccolo. Cell says he came back to this time when he was made by killing the Future Trunks and taking his ship. He turned himself into larvae and waited for four years until all the power came back. Piccolo asks why he came back here, and Imperfect Cell said it was to absorb Android 17 and Android 18 to become complete.
The Remote Tracking Device is an extremely intelligent tracking device disguised as a ladybug. It was created by Dr. Gero to study Goku and the Dragon Team and gathered genetics from the greatest fighters to create Cell. It could also remotely transmit the cells to the computer. The computer that Cell was waiting for 17 and 18 to be updated by because if he absorbed them before the update, they would be too weak.
What’s crazy is that he didn’t know about ssj even though he knew about frieza and king cold and likely witnessed trunks and goku as ssj
Dr. Gero made 17 and 18 way too strong, which was he believed was the reason he couldn’t control them, he made Android 19 totally loyal by creating him from scratch, and when he turned himself into an android he made himself stronger than 19 but at the end of the day he still was no where near 17 and 18’s strength. He was scared of his own work, after he finished converting himself into an android he probably planned on leaving 17 and 18 in stasis until Cell hatched
he wasn't finished with the androids , 17 was acting up so he shut him off with the remote but 17 waited till he got released out of his pod to kll gero .
@@crisalcantara7671 Hero ended up giving in the main timeline and made 19 and then converted himself, all this happened in the timeline where Goku stayed alive, there was never a timeline where 19 and 20 were explicitly stated to be in trunks’ timeline, except in the original unedited manga, it’s strange that Gero didn’t make himself stronger because he was quickly dispatched like he was nothing to them. While it was great for a dramatic plot, it gives us more questions than answers to the full story
You have a good idea going but you're missing details like the uploader. The reason why Gero couldn't control android 17 and 18 was because of the android model he used on them which was a newer model called infinite energy. The set back on these models was it was too difficult to control because the host (17 and 18) still maintained their humanity. This model was also much stronger. So while he shut them down this is also when he figured out how to fuse cells together and started his work on Cell. This is where because of the nature of 17 and 18 were uncontrollable they would be used to perfect Cell in its transformation that was as a back up plan to defeat Goku but not just towards him towards Earth for the destruction of the Red Ribbon Army.
He also created android 16 using the same model as 17 and 18 but since it was artificial it was easier to control which is why he intentionally made it gentler not only because of that it was also to resemble his son who died in the Red Ribbon Army killed in action which is why when android 17 free's him after noticing his model was the same as theirs but that he was also weaker then him because Gero when he runs to his lab after android 19 gets unalived (it's artificial) had no choice but to turn 17 and 18 on and commands them to attack the Z fighters. They first asked Gero a question if the model he and 19 had which were absorbing energy models which were older models which is why Gero chose it instead of the infinite energy model. After this they get rid of Gero knowing they were stronger.
A big part of why there were no super saiyans on planet Vegeta is because the form (before the back tingly crap) required an intense feeling of rage that saiyans in the Frieza Force would never really encounter. They were sent to conquer planets that were several magnitudes beneath them, and they were encouraged on their planet not to form any emotional attachments, so they never had anything to be angry about.
What made Trunks and Goten so angry they were able to transform? Probably nothing, that was from a period of time when Toriyama had stopped taking the series seriously and was likely meant purely as a gag.
5:46 18 wasn’t stronger than vegeta. They seemed pretty much equal but vegeta got cocky and underestimated his opponent. At least my thoughts anyway. 🤷🏽♂️
18 was much stronger than Vegeta. The androids were so much stronger than anything they faced before that it made piccolo fuse with Kami and made the saiyans use the Huperbolic time chamber.
@@LectricVonThunder I respect your opinion. We all thought the same about jiren tho and turned out that he was no stronger than blue lvl. I know it’s a different person but using that as an example.
@@JayyyTheGr8_JMNG What? Respectfully, where are you getting this from, bro? Jiren washed blue form in every appearance it made in the TOP. It took mastered UI Goku to even be able to actually box with Jiren. Unless you're talking about the manga's continuity which is a totally seperate canon that i honestly dont care about.
@@JayyyTheGr8_JMNG Also, remember that the main timelines Androids were even stronger than the one's from Trunk's timeline. Piccolo after he fused with Kami is the most powerful Z fighter until the Saiyans train on Kami's lookout, Vegeta damn near had an emotional breakdown when he sensed his ki, and even he was just about dead even with 17.
@@LectricVonThunder I do agree that 17 was stronger no doubt but I still feel like 18 and vegeta were pretty even. Just to be partial, I would give room that she was a tad bit stronger but not by much. Just my opinion.
from the dbz wiki. "Saiyans who have a gentle spirit gain more S-Cells, but when a Saiyan increases their battle power, they steadily gain more S-Cells. Once the Saiyan has enough S-Cells, a feeling such as strong anger or sadness can transform a Saiyan into a Super Saiyan." so one reason there weren't more super saiyans is that kindness is a reason goku got his, which saiyans did not have much of inherently, nor the luxury to gain it as a combat force
@druski888 Absolutely, also never mentioned in canon so its all just considered true from interviews, I don't put much stock in it.
The real question is how does cell have Frieza dna if Gero didn’t know about namek
Frieza died on earth to goku
@@blvkisdead9220 ok but if he has dna from that fight how did he not know about a super saiyan
@@Mrniceman2 Gero left the process of Cell's production to his supercomputer after he got the preliminary work done, seeing that the project would take several years otherwise. Gero's supercomputer collected the genetic material from Freeza and king Cold, and I believe the computer believed it had sufficient Saiyan data and Gero himself just didn't look in on the progress at all that's the explaination given I think
@@eveningswan4491 didn’t realize that. It’s a pretty lazy explanation but I guess it is an explanation
Pretty sure it's because since Cell is from a timeline where Goku fights Frieza, Gero/his computer would have been able to get that data.
I know you ain’t clown on that piccolo vs 17 fight ☠️ that shyt was 🔥
If 17 and 18 had the same Ki absorbing hands and absorbed the Z fighters strongest beam attacks then it wouldve made sense that their power level would become higher than them.
But Gero somehow making androids stronger than freeza out of normal teenagers, having infinite energy is some huge bs😂and we know the editors made tori change the cell saga a lot so all these inconcistencies makes sense i guess.
BS based on what? Youre just saying you cant imagine Gero making Androids that strong, but why? Hell, Frieza was just born as strong as he was with no training.
@@LectricVonThunder bc the last android he made was barely kid goku level and then he makes beyond super saiyan level androids somehow
Even though he didnt even saw what happened at namek, last data he had was the vegeta fight
And also he made those strong androids out of normal ahh teenagers
The only one that makes sense with his power level is Cell bc he has DNA from saiyans and freeza
Bruh. The reason the super saiyan form is more “easily” achievable now especially for saiyan/earthling hybrids has already been answered many times.
Not only that, but there’s a recipe on how to do it now.
Like someone creates a new cake flavor that has never existed before, so good that person begins to teach others to do it, or someone has a taste and figures out how to make it themselves. Now that cake is sold world wide, that’s how I see it
Let's get this clear, Goku didn't die because of a virus, he died to hearth attack, due to high cholesterol.
Too much bacon
Yo 1st time viewer your outro got me to sub! Got me thinking i like all thoses things too 😅
"Super saiyan disease"?
The heart virus wasnt a super saiyan related disease (or saiyan for that matter).
They (piccolo) even tell yamcha to take the medicin just in case he gets infected by goku, when he moves goku from the battle field.
I know its not a "super sayian disease." I am stating that it would interesting that the disease would be an interesting plot point if it happened because of the transformation.....
@@kadu-kun got it👍
Using TFS abridged voices instead of real voices was a dmb move.
My thing is how did gero create robots that were stronger than frieza 😂
Right bro!
Because he gained data and cells from Frieza and his father. Although we're never really given an explanation other than he's a genius and gave them infinite energy, I always assumed that the data he gained on however cyborg Frieza functioned is what allowed him a scientific breakthrough large enough to create cyborg humans that strong.
Specifically, if cyborg Frieza is stronger than base (final form) Frieza, then that must mean that the cybernetic enhancements are stronger in some aspect than his body. So, in this scenario, you get a base form slightly stronger than final form Frieza. Then you get to the infinite energy drive. Energy (Ki) in the dragon ball universe also reinforces one's physical ability, both in strength and durability. We see the androids using Ki based attacks and techniques, so they can use whatever energy the drives produce to a similar effect as normal Ki, although clearly not to the drive's fullest potential since the attacks aren't infinitely strong. The way I see it, they're just using their Ki unconsciously to reinforce an already massively strong body, but can't make themselves invulnerable or insanely powerful without focusing and concentrating their energy, i.e. energy barrier and ki blasts
*Asks commonly asked question*
*inserts fan fic*
Theres MANY more plot holes in the trunks timeline:
1) Why did trunks only go back in time to give goku the heart medicine if he knew it wouldnt effect the future timeline in any type of way? and why didnt trunks pick the strongest Z fighter or some type of help so they could go back in time and help trunks defeat cell and the androids, Trunks could of easily picked piccolo to fuse with kami, picked the hyperbolic time chamber, or pick others to get stronger and team up to fight in trunks future timeline.
2) Why didnt goku or the Z fighters from otherworld help trunks and future gohan during the fight with the androids? There is absolutely 0 excuse why they didnt join in to help.
3) Trunks and future gohan should of 100% received a significant zenkai boost during the years of fighting the androids.
4) Cell had more then enough time to absorb the androids in the future.
5) Why didnt trunks use the namek dragon balls to wish any of the Z fighters back especially goku, Or atleast wish for the androids to be gotten rid of, Theres so many wishes you can do with the namek dragon balls.
6) Everything about the future trunks story makes absolutely 0 sense and its not logical.
The thing is they didn't KNOW the location of new namek, so there is a SLIGHT chance they could've found it.
Second off Porunga wouldn't have been able to get rid of the Androids because they'd be stronger than him
Third, He went back in time to find a possible WEAKNESS for the androids before they arrived, even then he didn't know if him going back in time would've changed events
@@thescratchanimator570 One of the dead Z fighters could've easily had King Kai locate New Namek and then contacted Bulma or Gohan to bring them back.
@@denickart The thing is, they can't JUST go to King kai's place, They have to get permission from King Yemma and with all the dead souls coming, I doubt that they'll be able to talk to King Yemma
Not to mention they could have used dragon balls to instantly wish goku back to full health leaving heart virus null. They had 3 years to make use of wishes before the androids, and I didn't see a one 🙄
@@thescratchanimator570Doubt it. If the amount of souls got to the point that King Yemma was having trouble keeping up with them he would've sent some fighters to take care of the androids like he did with Buu.
Glad i saw this video recommend me seeing some dragon ball videos 😊
Glad your here fam!
@@kadu-kunI just enjoy and love anime. I subscribed to your channel
Welcome to the squad bro. I love this stuff too. Im going to do so many more videos soon
@@kadu-kun when you super chat I'll donate to you 😀
You dont have to! Only if you really want to fam
so vegeta vs 18 has been answered in interviews. they where equal in power, she couldnt just outright break his arm out the gate it took time to wear him down. the stamina factor is what they site as the problem that happened there and vegeta was equal in power so much so it surprised trunks how well his father was doing on his own and started to think maybe this can be possible.
Yes thank you 💯💯
That slight snippet of grandpa from jackie chan 👍🏽🤝
Gero was going to build his machines as strong as they were regardless of whether or not he know about Super Saiyan.
Gero was written to mirror Goku except evil. While Goku can train and fulfill his desire to get stronger, Gero also has an insatiable lust for power. He built 19 and converted himself but continued to build stronger and stronger models. He wasn't ready to release 17 & 18 in the present timeline because they were still a work in progress regarding his ability to control them. He then had Cell on the back burners to increase work volume but he knew even before he had created 19 and his android body of how powerful Cell would become. He creates for the sheer purpose of breaking his previous limits. He even alludes to this when his automated voice speaks to Cell in the alternate timelines during Cell's flashback while fighting Trunks: "...that is the beauty of your design. You will always have an insatiable appetite for power, much like my own." If Gero had lived to see Cell's birth he would've continued building stronger androids.
This video is for fans not fanatics, thank dude :)
19 and 20 have to steal ki to use it while 17 and 18 generate their own energy
This is a prime example of Dragon Ball fans not reading. The reason why the androids are so strong is because they're mechanical. Frieza was stated to be even stronger bc his mechanical parts can handle more energy. Also the androids being strong wouldn't even classify as a plot hole
Is the new evil guy stronger than the last? Plot hole ☝️🤓
I think he's more so talking about the absurdity of human scientists being able to create machines as strong as super saiyains, also the fact that bulma doesnt make anrdroids to defeat any future villain is kinda of a plothole
@@zacbrown3797 I already explained the 1st point and the 2nd is irrelevant and not a plot hole. Heck, what would an android even do against Buu? You make no sense
@@Mavuika_Gyaru just make an android as strong as buu, heres another one bulma made a time machine instead of making a space ship to namek (to use the namekian dragonballs)
@@Mavuika_Gyaru super android 17 vs uub......
To answer this question it's more than likely because not being able to get tired of loose stamina can give you a dangerous advantage in the fight notice how at the beginning of Vegeta and Android 18's fight Vegeta actually has the advantage It's up until the middle of the fight he starts to get wearing down getting tired affects you.
The reason Super Saiyan was seen as a "Legendary" thing and no one could do it is because they thought Super Saiyan was a thing one would achieve upon becoming strong enough, like after a certain level of strength, something would just happen and boom, Super Saiyan. This is pointed out by the way Vegeta, in the Namek Saga, constantly believed himself to already be a Super Saiyan and at one point thought Goku achieved it. But no, in reality, Super Saiyan is something ANY Saiyan could achieve if they knew how. In the beginning of the Buu Saga, the series tried to tell us that Super Saiyan was not special in the form of Trunks and Goten achieving it at such young ages, but no one seemed to pick up on that, so decades later, in Super, they dumbed it down further by giving us the "Back Tingle" explanation, a Super Saiyan Tutorial that, if you paid attention, is the same type of explanation as the one Gohan gave Videl on how to harness and use Ki
Trunks going back in time (as well as Cell) changed the current situation of the timeline. That's the easiest explanation I heard and it's the one I roll with to this day.
Considering we never know how the heck do the androids have infinite ki and stamina....the answer will forever be... because the plot needed it.
His increase from raditz to vegeta was insane. I don't understand how trunks was able to hang with them after 4 years of training also wasn't data collected when frieza arrived