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Freezer should have been at max 1.200.000, which is more than 60 times stronger than Earth Vegeta. 60 times. Imagine an human that has 60 times the strenght of one human, he can literally (not a joke) ONE SHOT a Polar Bear and even be able to face Dinosaurs.
What’s more insane is that an absurdly suppressed Beerus sneezed and blew up a planet. This means if Goku is taking a dump and isn’t careful he could destroy the entire universe.
Beerus sneezed and released a small Hakai, it wasn't the sneeze itself that destroyed the planet but the Ki released by it, which in Beerus' case is specifically something that destroys what it touches regardless of everything
The problem is the obsession with the "power level" numbers that the entire fan base have latched on to. The power levels were just a gimmick from the scouters for a couple arcs, and it was consistently shown that their ability to determine someone's combat effectiveness was dubious. Yet since they were the only thing anyone had to go off of they became the de-facto way to measure how powerful a character was. It didn't help that daizenshuu released "official multipliers" for transformations and such and it just turned all fights into math problems. Everyone should stop looking at arbitrary power numbers and multipliers because that's not how fighting is. The Z-Fighters themselves don't use scouters because getting some number from a piece of technology is useless in a fight.
DBZ should've ended by the Frieza Saga or the Cell Saga at the latest. Then create a show like Dragon Ball GT which takes place 10 years later and have the Buu Saga along with a rewritten version of the other GT sagas. Put a rewritten version of the Golden Frieza Saga just right before the Shadow Dragon Saga so we can say goodbye to our favorite villain. Then after Goku defeats Syn Shenron, he ascends to godhood and becomes one with the Force just like the Monkey King he was based on.
5:08 this gets even worse when you account for Anime filler like King Vegeta destroying 3 planets with a wave of his hand, and Vegeta destroying Arlia with just a finger beam
@@Thaglabx13 You know if earths moon were to simply disapear it would catastrophic right? Your comment shows you know next to nothing on how our planet actually works. Look up what happens to planets that becoming tidal locked. Or what would happen if we happen no more seasons. Or if the planet no longer had an axis.
The energy needed to blow up the moon is about 10 billion times the the combined explosive yield of the global nuclear arsenal. The energy needed to blow up the earth is about 1300 times the energy needed to blow up the moon. That means farmer with a shotgun with his power level of 5 should easily be a continent busting threat. Yeah, I can't take power levels seriously.
@@Eonity If it's still exponential below 1k than it makes even less sense for Raditz to lose. Akira just pulled numbers at random, so there isn't any consistent order to measure with.
To be honest, Toriyama should have just established that frieza was a big fish in a small pond by saying he was only the strongest in the galaxy instead of the whole universe since that would prevent villains being stronger than Frieza from being a problem. But I don't blame him for not doing that since I remember hearing that he was planning to end the series by that point.
Yeah exactly I agree for sure. Toriyama didn’t plan to end the series anytime before the buu saga haha. Those are all misconceptions spread around for the sake of it. Every new arc came a week after the last.
@@pkj2148 yeah but in dbs somehow everyone was so much stronger than in dbz, able to match goku and vegeta in their base forms which far surpassed the super saiyan god form
@@Eonity I agree about DBS. I find it ridiculous that Freeza was the stronest in the galaxy and you have random looking fighters in the Tournament of Power who are massively stronger than he was on Namek.
The only beings stronger than Frieza in DBZ were artificial creatures (the Androids and Cell were only around for a couple of weeks and never made it off planet Earth). All of the gods in Super were not planned.
“At the end of the day it’s just a fictional series written by a GOAT.” I’m so glad farm animals have such quality representation and come along way in achievements
What i hate about the broken powerscaling is people starting to make characters whos sole purpose is to get compared to goku (eg. Rimuru, Anos, Hajun, Featherine, etc) which opened a new era where if a character isnt some omnipotent god they arent really mentioned in powerscaling
@@Komaruluten bro holy shit thank you this is such a nice comment I appreciate it so much, if you really liked it you should subscribe for more high quality content I have so many more dbz vid ideas :D
@@Eonity Yeah I thought the same, I was wondering if I was subscribed thinking you had like 100k at least but was honestly surprised you have less than 2k but I'm sure you'll get way more in the future if you keep this quality up!
@@Eonity holy shit I didn't even notice that until I saw this comment. I definitely thought this was a huge content creator and I kept thinking "its good to see big names that still respond to their fans" great work!
The first manga to use numerical power levels wasn't Dragon Ball but Kinnikuman (a series that in general invented a lot of shonen cliches that Dragon Ball would later use). The first major antagonist of Kinnikuman, Robin Mask, had a power level of 960,000. The final antagonist, Super Phoenix, had a power level of 100,000,000. This means the Frieza fight alone (Frieza going from 560 thousand to 120 million) has more power creep than the entire Kinnikuman manga.
530.000 but yeah that was insane I personally would have made the first form 200.000 thats still above everyone on his army with only ginyu his most loyal man being close Second form at 350.000 third 500.000 Final form at 2 million at 50% and 4 million at 100% Meanwhile the ginyu zenkai would push goku to 100 k and at kaioken x10 01 million x20 2 million and as a ssj 5 million At least this way powercreep is held back as much as possible during the arc if possible would also not give ssj to the other saiyans untill AFTER goku recovers from the heart virus
@@danielgonzalez-vm5ljYeah, much better. I would have scrapped multipliers and just scaled down it a lot. Frieza is the emperor of the galaxy. Raditz has like, 600 power level. Nappa has like 800 and Vegeta something of around 1200. Ginyu something like 4000, first form Frieza should be weaker than his strongest soldiers imo, so like 3000. Last form something around 10000.
@@danielgonzalez-vm5ljbut that only turns absolutely dumb powercreep to "just" very bad powercreep. No matter how you slice it power level tennis is just dumb.
@@danielgonzalez-vm5lj I would give frieza and everyone PL 10 times weaker and it make more sense. He didnt need to be stronger than ginyu at his first form
The very funny consequence of how Dragon Ball is written, is that Goku comes out as being absolutely TERRIBLE at power levels. He may have the higest power level in the group - but he always is one step of training ahead. Then when the supporting cast do the training Goku did an acr prior - they come out of it multiple times stronger than Goku was after that same training. And this actually happens both in DB and DBZ. Goku after training with Kami can fight Piccolo, Krillin after training with Kami stomps Radditz. This goes for basically every power up in the show Og and Z alike. One can only speculate what would happen if they let the supporting cast do the same training as Goku an arc prior ^^' As for the Freeza situation, to be fair the blame is somewhat on the Editors, not just Toriyama. Now first things first - we need to start with the fact that Toriyama himself has said that as far as he is concerned, after beating Piccolo / suprassing Kami - he couldn't really imagine Goku getting any stronger. He surpassed god. How much stronger can you get from there? This is why starting with Z - the enemies are aliens, why the gravity training gets introduced, and why power ups come in form of transformations. Toriyama wrote the show fighting against his own mental block saying that Goku can't really get stronger by training. He's a max level character. But then the editors throw a wedge, by requesting the villains to change. Toriyama didn't plan on Freeza having multiple transformations, he didn't plan on there being even stronger andrids, he didn't plan on there being a cell, nor cell having transformations. These all only happened because the editor didn't like the designs and thought they do not convey the big bad well enough. And because Toriyama wanted to have an in universe reason for why these things kept happening - the thing that made the most sense was that, they transform to get stronger. Not to look better. So while Freeza's original power level of 520k was still absurd, as Super Saiyan was already a pre-determined solution against Freeza, the transformations just had to make the Zenkais and Super Saiyan more and more absurd than originally planned.
Yeaaa that's honestly bad, Cell Saga solved this problem halfway, and the reason why Goku leaves most of the cast behind is not only because he is a Saiyan but also because he trains much smarter.
dragon ball power level problem is just a consequence of the plot needing strong villans but at the same time the maincast need to put up a fight so it is engaging so they are given artificial power ups but then once we have a new arc we need even stronger villans meaning the maincast need to be even stronger and the cycle repetes (i mean do you want me to believe that base cabba is universal level)(or that humans have a higher growth rate than a literal race of space warriors that evolved to fight)
Dragon Ball is honestly not a good written show or manga. It's even below average in that aspect, in my opinion. Toriyama already wasn't good at it, editorial pushbacks made it even worse. The thing with "oh he didn't think that hard" is that it just isn't an excuse. It breaks immersion and it creates inconsistencies and absurdities all over the plot. It's not like authors have to know everything about physics, but they should respect the bare, bare minimum of doing a bit of research for their writings. It should be at least marginally logically coherent. Dragon Ball is an excellent Martial Arts comedy, it also does have great moments, actions and very iconic characters, so it's a franchise I appreciate A LOT. But the writing really leaves a sore taste. The story doesn't make any sense if you put even a little bit of thought into it. without dogmatically trying to fill every hole without any evidence.
That's why I kinda shrugged at the tingling back thing with the U6 Saiyans in Super. We already had children with zero trauma and anger bring out the Super Saiyan transformation. The kids didn't even think it was a big deal. Even Vegeta and Gohan thought it was ridiculous.
@@jamesfitzgerald1684 I just told myself that when you go SS once it changes your DNA so that it can be passed on genetically to your children. And never thought about it again.
What? A DB Super related video that isn't completely blinded by nostalgia and misunderstanding of the original series? That's crazy... Finally. Great video.
Technically even before then. You have 17,000ish level Vegeta casually blowing up planets, a 300ish level Piccolo blowing up the moon with one quick blast. Frankly anything shown after Raditz (and including him) would be massive overkill
@MattyGears1583 what the fk does energy control matter to someone like broly? Earth should be screwed. Thank god buu had the balls and actually nuked earth but in dragon ball, death doesnt exist
I agree with your point on how power creep doesn't ruin the series, but it does create some problems that get a little annoying when to the extent seen in db like having side characters gain ridiculous asspulls power boosts in order to keep up and disrespecting previous enemies like you said, great video btw
thanks for the compliment on the video you have no idea how much it means haha. Regardless, it does get annoying but that annoyance is mostly in DBS for me, in DBZ it's decently consistent for the most part. The craziest thing was Tien holding back Cell with a Kikoho, but that was also really cool so I didn't care as much
Yeah idk why they always make a character no diff another if they get a little stronger, like everytime someone goes into a time chamber that mf comes out not to just beat the main villain, but to absolutely embarrass him😭😭
I feel like db always tries to hype up character power ups to a point that it just makes it so everyone has to get 10x stronger per arc just to keep up
Don't forget that SSJ2 Gohan was like, immediately broken, because Perfect Cell makes the half-dozen Cell Jrs who are the same power level as him, and Gohan takes out ALL of them with one hit each, even thought they're 80% of his full power at SSJ2
SSJ2 Gohan is not and never was a 2x boost, I guess you didn't pay attention in all of DBZ which has always been repeatedly hitting you upside the head with the fact that Gohan has absurd amounts of hidden power that only come out when he's angry. The first time we see him he could go from a power level of 1 to over 1000 when he got angry in the Raditz fight, but sure, he didn't get any amount of rage boost when fighting Cell.
@TheAsj97 I never tried to quantify his SSJ2 boost, BUT, like SSJ one was when Goku fought Frieza: it very much IS A multiplier, regardless of whether or not we see Gohan's power increase with rage. Based on what I could find online (and have always seen based on those same resources without having a copy of the Daizenshuu) SSJ2 Gohan is 5 billion in terms of power; supposedly Full Power Perfect Cell - his hail Mary at the end to try and match Gohan's strength at the expense of speed - is 4 billion. That's the same level the Cell Jrs would be, and again, Gohan ONE SHOT THEM. Not Ultimate or Mystic Gohan, just SSJ2 pre-teen Gohan, one-diffing guy because of 1 billion point gap. Could he have gotten a boost from being enraged? Sure, why not, that itself got turned into a form during Black Goku Arc, but I would be shocked if it was as substantial as when he was a kid and suddenly went - as you said - from 1 to 1000. That seems like one of those things they'd need him lose as he learns to harness his power to use it at all times (which it what the Mystic was) because if he didn't then by that same logic he should always be more powerful than everyone by just getting enraged on top of whatever state he's in.
@@TheAsj97 I mean, SSJ2 Gohan was never a specific X times boost. He was as strong as the story required. Toriyama was past using specific power levels at that point so it's really all up to speculation how much power Gohan had then.
@@benbajillionaireno, ssj isn’t a just a multiplier bro. Ssj1 (namek saga) didn’t multiplier, it add 147 million power to the user. Ascended ssj (Vegeta vs semi cell) is: [base x20]+147 million. Ultra ssj (trunks vs cell) is: [base x40]+147 million. And perfected ssj (Goku vs cell) is: [base x50]+147 million. Ssj2 is just [[base x50]+147 million]x2, and power level isn’t linear (power level 8 is not 3 higher than 5, but it like multiple time higher) and it depend on ki control too. That why in broly arc, Vegeta said their power is not far from jiren, but they lost because jiren controlled his ki so well.
The way I see it on how whack the power scaling is, Dragon Ball had a small fire on the stove. Dragon Ball Z's kitchen is on fire. Dragon Ball Super's house is on fire lol
Power scaling was over when piccolo went from last than 5.000 to half a million after 1 month of training and a fusion with a gimp. After that, i stopped caring about the number they were shouting.
he didn't even train for most of that month, legit around or before goku went to his 6 day trip to namek, he gets a call from king kai and we learn that they just got to him, piccolo got dozens of times stronger in *less than a week*
I think you raised the best point near the end: it's actually amazing how well grounded most of the arcs/fights are considering how ridiculous the scaling got so quickly.
One of the most ridiculous things Super did was to make Roshi absurdly strong. In OG Dragon Ball he couldn't even beat Demon King Piccolo. He is not seen training a day in his life after that. Then they expect us to believe he is strong enough to beat Freeza's henchmen in Resurrection of F and also be powerful enough to contend with Tournament of Power level foes? I don't buy it. The fact the Goku picked him over Yamcha who is supposed to have been stronger than Roshi ever since the 23rd World Martial Arts Tournament is an insult.
Just cause we didn’t see it didn’t mean it didn’t happen. With krillin living there why wouldn’t he train? Freeza soldiers are only around a couple hundred to a thousand, so they aren’t really strong in hindsight. I’d argue in favor of master roshi being way stronger than them by the time dbs rolls around.
Goku picked Roshi because the TOP isn’t just about power, about ringing your opponent out. He chose Roshi for his wisdom. Yeah he hasn’t visually shown to train, only said to be offscreen, but even still in the manga his power is described as dirt low and only made it that far in because of his skillset. He gets ringed out by Jiren because Jiren put a little bit more effort after being caught off guard by his dodging. Hell in the anime most of his ring outs are through strategy like the Mafuba and assisting Tien with thunder shock surprise. The only brute force ring out was against Ganos and it nearly killed Roshi anyway. As for the Frieza Force I’m pretty sure it was implied that they’d gotten weaker because they’re too reliant on tech iirc. Though tbf resurrection F isn’t exactly the most well written arc so there can be a point there.
@@normangargantua139 Bro stop the cap ! Why pick Roshi over Yamcha who is stronger ? Because Roshi can help ring people out ? Does it even matter if Roshi is to weak to stand his ground in the first place ? They just wanted to have Roshi in the TOP regardless of pre-established logic. Roshi himself stated that he is no longer on par with the Z-warriors since he didn't even participate in the Tenkaichi tournament where Kami and Piccolo joined . Where was Roshi when Nappa and Vegeta no diff the entire team ? Where was he when Dr Gero and N°19 were ravaging the city ? Where was he in the Cell tournament ? But all of suddent for the TOP he is there ? Tsk stop it ! Heck Goten and Trunk would have been better candidate for the TOP than Kuririn and Roshi and they could fuse too . Drop the "Oh they are children" because in the Buu saga they were the only hope everyone on earth had since they didn't knew Ultimate/Mystic Gohan was alive. Roshi eliminate no one important in the TOP !
@ “Roshi eliminated no one important in the TOP” every elimination in the TOP is important dawg. It’s a numbers game, the team with the most players wins if the time runs out. Every elimination saves the stronger characters a bit of energy and that’s important It’s seriously not that big of a deal. He trained off screen, he got stronger. It’s not that deep. He didn’t even get THAT much stronger, like only ahead of Tien. He gets no diffed by base Goku and folded by Frost effortlessly. Goten and Trunks are kids and are likely to get ringed out by smarter opponents. Need I remind you they literally fumbled against Super Buu because of how cocky they were? They probably would’ve been picked off by Frost, that illusion character Roshi fought, or literally any cunning character. “He stated he is no longer on par with the Z-warriors” well maybe he just wanted to train again??? Iirc he stated Goku and Krillin were inspirations for him to train again. Obviously he’s not gonna be trying to fight Android 20 or 19 or Cell because he didn’t go through that training yet
@@normangargantua139 That is cap and you know it too well ! Goten and Trunk de-fusing against Super Buu is because they didn't knew the Fusion would get shorter with Transformation like super saiyan 3 .Them being Cocky is understandable since they were stronger than Super Buu . The fact they got absorbed is on Gohan and Piccolo since they should have wiser but got fooled just like Goten and Trunk . How can Roshi become stronger than Tienshinhan who never stop grinding ? Make it make sense ! Tienshinhan trained with Kami and King-Kai and have never stopped since. How would Roshi who was weaker than Tienshinhan at the start of Z and didn't get trained by those godly trainer get ahead ? In the TOP power make right ! Jiren hall of fame moves are just basic stuff and he destroyed anyone . Goten and trunk as super saiyan are leagues above Roshi and they can fuse for 30 minutes if they don't transform. It's nice that Roshi can use the Mafuba and the containement energy wave but that doesn't amount to anything when his opponent are faster than him . Again Roshi didn't eliminate anyone important in the TOP. Goten and Trunk would have done as much as him and even more they are just that much stronger .
This is precisely the reason I don't debate db fans in terms of fictional battles, they're hardly consistent and reliable. Super Sayian Trunks shouldn't be able to hold his own against Goku Black and vice versa. Thank you for this video
I think it's because the characters are so fun with a good amount of depth. Also the show is just fun and simple. It's for causals, it knows when to be serious too.
Maybe because it's a great show. You can find huge flaws in everything and even the best show you can find won't be for everyone. For instance... I stopped caring about Naruto when the war arc came about since it felt like it was less about ninjas and more about superhuman (aliens) with powers and energy moves. Many don't like the pacing in one piece (rightfully so), and attack on Titan turned into crap in its last season, and lets not forget Seven deadly sins. However, it doesn't mean you can't enjoy the shows regardless of those facts.
10/10 video tbh, you were always keeping up with revelant points in the video truly quality content there, i was so entertained that i didnt notice when the video ended lol
It certainly ruined the fandom by making the fans into insufferable power scalers who think other series are bad because the characters are not as visibly overpowered, while also dismissing the concept of fighting smarter instead of harder (aka weaker characters being able to beat stronger opponents through a creative use of their abilities)
Nobody unironically thinks a show is bad because the mc can't blow up a planet. Now granted there is a vocal minority of kids who spams "Goku negs" on tiktok, but generally no functioning adult does that kinda stuff. I personally don't see what's so bad about wanting to figure out how strong a character is.
That first point you made is something I've never witnessed. I've never heard any DB individual call a series bad because said character is weaker than Goku. Maybe they would critique the character itself, but not the series, and even in regard to that, it's more so them calling the character weak, as opposed to it being "bad"
To be fair, there's not too many clever abilities that can bridge a gap as big as the power gap between most characters and Dragon ball. A few, bit not many.
@@diplomatofthesosbrigade931 literally the majority of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure just for starters also anything dealing with ghosts, psychic power, curses, or anything that bypasses physical strength also any abilities or power systems that allow the characters to take ridiculous shortcuts (I em looking at you Ben 10)
@@malekat8539 came across it WAY too often during the days of the Big 3, and still see it pop its head from time to time when people discuss stuff like My Hero Academia, Kimetsu no Yaiba, or JuJutsu Kaisen
yeah but do you really expect dragon ball fans to understand the nuances of something that isn't explicitly stated when frieza's base form is EXPLICITLY stated to be his base form yet there was a 24k liked tweet the other day saying "super is so bad because it tricked people into thinking frieza's fourth form is his base form" this fandom has no hope
I think its more accepted in Dragonball and DBZ because we actually see the characters training. In Super were expected to just accept that out of nowhere they're as strong as they're claimed to be, also nothing in the entirety of Dragonball goes beyond the nonsense of Roshi who hasn't had a fight or ANY display of training since Dragonball suddenly being able to handle himself in the Tournament of Power.
In Dragon Ball, power levels were always exaggerated, but in Dragon Ball Super, they became even more inconsistent. The series seems to disregard them entirely at times. For example, in the fight against Hit, Vegeta is forced to transform into Super Saiyan Blue just to keep up with Hit, only to be defeated in a single punch. Meanwhile, Goku takes Vegeta's place and has no trouble catching up with Hit in his base form, which makes no sense given the power disparity shown earlier.
Especially becuase Toriyama said power levels don't matter after the Frieza saga, and that when writing Super he went back to the idea of "whoever does the best martial arts wins the fight".
I just ran into this channel I really liked the video and the top... But we're really got me to subscribe was the ending... I don't know why but it just felt so genuine. "Love you, bye."... Love you too stranger :)!
This is a a very good constructive video that addresses and highlights a issue I see in powerscaling these days. To put it into perspective vaporizing the moon in the way Roshi did requires many Yottatons of force in the Comprehensive Energy Scale which is Large Planetary. A Yottaton is a thousand times more powerful then a zettaton, the GBE of Mars is 1.444 zettatons. Earth's GBE would require 59.44 zettatons. Even the NOVA bomb UNSC superweapon in Halo which has different yields depending on which source you ask from it can range form 1.2 petatons to many exatons because it can crack both a moon and a planet from 10,000 of miles away in space at the same time. Yet that doesn't compare to Master Roshi in Original Dragon Ball's feat of attack potency. The UNSC's Orbital mac cannons are said to produce yields that are equal to 46.5 gigatons which is over 4 times greater then the concept yield of the Project Sundial bomb which was 10 gigatons which in itself is 200 times more powerful then the Tsar Bomba, the UNSC uses these weapons to mount a effective defense against the Covenant's greatest of Assault Carriers. If you think about it a character who has Country level (7 -100 teratons) striking strength and durability alone would be a massive powerhouse in most settings and would be a tremendous threat to entire worlds alone where average ground base militaries cannot stop such a character without even more extreme firepower like the Imperium of Man would probably need to use a exterminatus weapon such as the Cyclonic Torpedo to actually take such a character out in Warhammer 40k and those are not cheap but expensive and costly for their worldbuilding and it's not recommended for their military to do that constantly for the waste of planetary resources it causes. A single power level in Dragon Ball might as well make you a continent level with the way it was implemented unintentionally since the Moon vaporization feat and all thing following after that. Which means Farmer with a shotgun with a power level 5 would solo alot of anime worlds like My Hero Academia which has often gigaton to teraton feats at the end. Power creep needs to be kept under control while worldbuilding and it cannot be allowed to go beyond a certain point without traits and active restrictions that keep it restrained. Worldbuilding franchise that set parameters and relativistic limitations in universe for their created power systems and scaling are the best at keeping such things in check without over dramatically raising the stakes to astronomical level of "Oh no we have a being who is a billion times stronger then the last antagonist and can destroy the entire universe for the one hundredth time wielding macro universe cosmic levels of energy" kind of narrative which gets too chaotic and inconsistent after it's repeated over and over with no good creativity and set limitations. There needs to be standards that are carefully thought of in depth. Power creep is something that must be kept under control and under certain in universe circumstances that keeps it under raps. Is Morgoth in JRR Tolkien mythology a universe buster? No he isn't but it doesn't mean he isn't a threat to the world and the most powerful evil entity in universe. Is Ganondorf busting solar systems and is as durable as that? No he is not but he doesn't have to be to be a great powerful villain. Does Star Wars Expanded Universe Luke Skywalker have galaxy level attack potency, striking strength, durability, and a million times faster then light combat speed? No absolutely not but he becomes a powerful hero one of the strongest Force wielders in existence. The same thing has to be applied to other animes and franchises. Naruto is surely not destroying stars and solar systems nor is Gojo destroying a celestial body. Heck sometimes you don't even need to compel a omnipotent being to do such a spectacle to prove their power and glory in creation. Like in Narnia Aslan doesn't do that despite being God the Son Jesus/Yahusha of the Bible he doesn't showoff his power like Dragon Ball characters do to that extent. There are other ways of show casing a character's power without going the Marvel and DC comics of cosmic glamorizing route.
people give the Androids a pass cuz its cool and they enjoy it, but the idea some guy can just create cyborgs that can kill Super Saiyan's is so fuckin insane lol. then they do it again in Super Hero.
4:02 To add to this Goku when he fought King Piccolo had a PL of 260, so Krillin in a single year of training went from weaker than that to 1770. Goku was taught by Kami as well and for 3 years but didn't have anywhere near the same amoint of gains.
I remember often saying how BAD the power scalling in DB as a whole is, and there would always be at least a 50% chance that someone would always pop saying "Ermm actually, DBZ power scalling is fine its just DBS that screw it up!" And I'm always like: "My brother in christ.. did you watched the show??" (No he didn't, DBZ fans dont watch the show)
I finished DB and I’m about 130 episodes into DBZ, right before the androids show up. It was pretty clear to me what was going on with the power creep from the start. Goku gets too strong for all known enemies, so they introduce new ones, or sideline goku so the rest of the fighters can have an arc that Goku would one shot if he was there. Then repeat. Then they just stopped attaching numbers to the power increases. At no point did the scaling not seem absurd. I just don’t care because my reasons for watching the show are gratuitous. I want the characters to get more and more powerful in an absurd way. I want them to train in 400x gravity and be able to be OP for any threat. It’s pure gratuitous power for me. That’s what makes the show cool. Because the same trope can just be done over again, just make some new alien stronger than super saiyan Goku and make Goku train ina time chamber and get strong enough to OP the new guy. Power creep,doesn’t ruin it for me because I was never in it for the story. I got into it to see what all the fuss was about in the fitness community. And I understand. We are jacked dudes who like super hero’s and absurd training. It gives us inspiration. But that being said, I don’t know how anyone could watch DBZ and not quickly understand what was happening. The creep is out of control from pretty early on.
The _only_ issue with power scaling is when it leaves behind characters that could be very interesting additions to the plot. But this can happen regardless of minimal or absurd power cliffing. Because at the end of the day, in a minimal power cliffing (i.e., horizontal power scaling) story, said character can always come in and still be relevant with little effort, and in a absurd power cliffing story, any character can just get training or a power up from X, Y, or Z and be re-introduced without much issue. It's entirely on the writing in general to utilize characters or not, which then is what is to blame when certain characters aren't used or are left behind (Tien, Krillin, Chiaotzu, 17 and 18, and Trunks and Goten are characters with already deep technique bags, while Chi-chi, Videl, the U6 Saiyans, Uub, and Yamcha are aspiring fighters with a mostly blank canvas for techniques that can be filled with almost anything. And all of them can easily become relevant with just one or two hand-wave power-ups - or just straight up training for the U6 Saiyans and Uub's case).
Yeah the power levels have always been insane, but that's not the reason people say super ruined the power scale. It's because weaker characters like roshi are somehow stronger than characters like Tien with absolutely no explanation.
also wanna point out i tried to use the best footage possible. i think dbz kai is a superior version of dbz so i used that, but i also used the color corrected original dragon ball footage that fans did and even used super hd versions of the movies and other things. i appreciate you noticing it, it means a lot
Alot of people don't understand just how crazy 50x for am multiplier is. let's assume you take the average punch of an adult is 150 psi if you multiply that by 50 you get 7,500 psi an alligator's bite is 2,000 psi you're punching 3.75 times that with a significantly lower surface area.
It also makes little sense that Goku is always ahead of Vegeta despite the latter being born several hundreds of times stronger than him and much more rigorous in his training. At least Goku has never beaten Vegeta.
Dragon ball lost its credibility when frieza did a few pushups and surpassed everyone while goku and Vegeta trained for decades to reach their level😂😂😂
@@maxdrags3115 He was literally born with a power level of 120 Mio without ever lifting a finger, and had to invent multiple suppression forms just to suppress and control his own power. If Goku can jump from, 8000 to 3 Mio within a month with 2 Zenkai boosts and a week of training in 100 times gravity, what stops Frizea from making massive jumps by busting his ass off for 4 months? Not saying it makes sense, but the scaling in DB has always been ridiculous.
First time watching any of your videos, and I must say, this is one of the best pieces of content I've ever seen! I'm definitely interested in more DB content from you, and keep up the fantastic work;
To this day I still remember the ‘oh shit’ moment I had when King Kai revealed that Goku had been using the Kaio Ken at max from the start. Nothing has come close since.
resident reminder, stan lee was not debunking power scaling or the use of it or power levels. or even crosses verse battles. what stan lee was saying is, i as an author cant tell you how another author would write their work. therefore i cannot tell you who would win in a fight. the author of that story would tell you. at most he is telling ppl to stop asking him who wins and how he would write it, but he never says anything about fans having those discussions of their own accord. because if you take his statement at face value he would also be saying "dont do cross verse match ups in your imagination because only writers can do that."
@ this is not in reference to you specifically, its to ppl that ise Stan Lee’s quote to say that power scaling is BS with him as an authority on the subject. He didint dismiss it. He explained why he shouldnt be asked the question. There is thread comment to a top level comment on this video where someone references SL’s quote.
This is just cope. Fans were asking Stan Lee precisely because fan discussions of who will win against who almost always end up nowhere. He (the author) is seen as the ultimate authority, the highest judge, whose conclusion is law. There's no objective metric by which you can judge anything. There's no point in trying to find one. All of these power level arguments are useless, because when you imagine those battles YOU'RE THE AUTHOR. When two people are arguing about two characters, it's akin to them both writing a collaborative work. Instead of bashing imaginary toys against one another, people should enjoy stories and characters. This is what Stan meant.
@@kindlingking you agree with the point i am making. He doesnt tell others to not do it tho. Hes gives his point from a writers perspective. As a writer the writer decides. He didnt say “these things should never be talked about because the only authority is the writer.” And your point makes the same point i was making in the reverse “youre the author” - right. Which is why he shouldnt be asked and why he wouldnt be telling ppl to stop doing that practice entirely. You only need an imagination to do that an everyone has one. I do agree with the point that people should enjoy stories and characters for what they are. One of the ways people do this is by power scaling and vs matches. your comment starts off as if to refute mine or my premise, but i think we agree in the larger direction.
I think the best and most insane part of all this is that the earth has withstood all this power😂😂😂 like I understand the “ki control” to not destroy the ground under you but dude a Solar Kame should ANNIHILATE the world
not to mention there's been battles on earth with people like super Broly who couldn't control his power at all realistically he would blink and destroy the solar system with lowball 😭
this vid kinda highlights a problem i have with the series. most of the fights are insanely one-sided with not alot of back and forth. one guy either gets his ass kicked or the other one does which gets a little repetitive
I honestly knew all this off the top of my head due to growing up and intaking this info, I’m glad you enjoyed! I appreciate every comment like this 🫶🏼🥹
@@Eonity Same. Started DBZ 25 years ago and watched it like 10-20 times. I hate the way super has taken things and the current braindead fandom who seems to have gotten most of their "knowledge" from tiktok
Extremely based. Dragon Ball has always been like that. A show starts at hand to hand combat between skilled human people (saying skilled since the martial arts experts came later) to ending it with universal power levels. And the story isn't long enough to make it make sense when you really think about it. None of this means I don't love Dragon Ball, I do, it's literally one of my favorite things in the world. But I always acknowledged how out of this world the scales were. So was always confused when people said this issue started at Super??? Like what? Fans tend to forget all the things you mentioned or overmightify Z.
Yeah and I still think super definitely ruined it to an even worse extent, making people able to contest with even the strongest of gokus forms when they otherwise shouldn’t, just cause the plot necessitates it. But it definitely didn’t start there at all. I’m glad you enjoyed and commented, if you liked this you should subscribe and stay tuned for what I have next
@Eonity I mean, the whole Krillin vs a really contained SSJ Blue Goku makes sense (and I have seen several content creators explain that in detail in videos and shorts) when you consider that the idea is two things. 1. To show how would Krillin deal with opponents who are way, way stronger than him in the Tournament or Power. 2. Since it's using God Ki Krillin can't sense so he can't know how strong they are, which helps with point 1.
Love Carthu so much, but even krillin holding his own for mere moments implies so much more about the series power scaling than it does show that krillin would be able to outdo them in terms of martial arts prowess. The fight before blue was going perfectly, since goku should already be WAYYYY stronger than him in his base form already
The difference is that Krillin would not be taken out by a bullet in Z, SSJ3 Goku wouldn't be Kamehameha struggling against Krillin, 17/18 wouldn't be able to reach SSJ2/3 Goku just because they felt like training sometimes between working and taking care of their family, Piccolo wouldn't get a power boost that would surpass Buu 10 times over just because he asked Shenron nicely, Trunks wouldn't get to Vegito level just because he's magically made his own spirit bomb out of... power of hope(???)... of all 100 people left on the planet... -and MANY MANY MORE
The first one not really Krillin literally hurt ssj goku with a regular rock because he was off guard and sleeping same thing happened to goku in resurrection F
@@danielgonzalez-vm5ljThat's how ki works, there's a shroud of ki they keep around themselves to protect from any damage. If they are relaxed and not in a fight the barrier/shroud of ki is deactivated or not potent enough to protect them from conventional attacks.
@@danielgonzalez-vm5lj I meant Krillin, when he got shot by one of those thugs. As for Goku - powering down so much while in front of Freeza is dumb writing regardless. I'm also pretty sure his body should still be pretty tough regardless, because back in original DB he's tanked bullets and axes to his head, before he even knew what Ki is.
Love the vid bro. And I agree that power creep if taken too seriously becomes poisonous. It wasn't all bad at the end of the day because I had some genuine fun moments. The first time I saw Freezer, reaching a new form I was like "goddamn, how are they going to justify this? Lmao", it was really fun, I'll never forget it. I also, like the fact that our GOAT decided to drop it to focus on other stuff which made the Android Saha so peak. And damn was the power scaling a hot mess in the Buu saga. I loved the Buu saga, but good god was it inconsistent and overwhelming sometimes. Also hard agree with the fact that us fans think into power levels and comparisons way harder than Toriyama himself ever did writing DB, just look at the toxic Buuhan Vs Kid Buu debate, lol. Speaking of which, I personally love this move by Toriyama. How he decided to come on more reasonable power levels at the end of the arc with Kid Buu within the Fat Buu/Super Buu power range. The fact that he decided to drop crazy over the top stuff like absorption and my GOAT Vegeto was probably the best way to write a meaningful and fulfilling ending. Maybe it's me giving too much credit to Toriyama who didn't even think about it this deep, but the GOAT earned it.
People forgot, power levels were introduced specifically to tell us it doesn’t work. Power level and scaling is tricky, but in the end it’s entirely up to the author and serves only the purpose of plot and story. It can be done well, it can be done poorly. Because it’s all fiction.
No they weren't? Every single time that power levels have shown up (in the real story, not extra guides) they were consistent, it seems you're conflating scouter use to power levels, what was shown not to work was over reliance on using scouters against enemies who can supress themselves, but these people still have real power levels that are consistent and work.
Buu saga goku doesn't need kaioken for that Wanna know something worse ? Battle of gods goku pre ssj god ritual could kill perfect cell with just kaioken
Thank god you made this video... was tired of air heads and sheeps constantly blaming Super for everything, acting like Z doesn't stink it's self. The fact Krillin wasnt instantly flattened fighting a Cell Jr, who was beating on SS Vegeta
To be fair cell told the jrs to torture not kill Krillin surviving makes sense Tien and yamcha helping a tired ssj goku against a cell jr and actually doing something....just one word Lmao
@@danielgonzalez-vm5lj lol remember when a Cell Jr dived hard off a cliff and kneedropped Krillin in his back when he was laying down? How tf was his organs not crushed. But yea ur right, Cell did instruct them not to kill at first. The Jr's are confirmed to be stronger than androids 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, Imperfect Cell, Frieza and Semi Perfect Cell, yet Yamcha and Tien actually landed a blow that actually knocked one of them down briefly. Could u imagine an attack like that working on any of the people I just named haha
Finally. I've been saying this for the longest time. It's ALWAYS been egregious. Goku literally went from Ginyu level to kicking Freeza in the face within the first 30 seconds of meeting him after 1 zenkai boost and that's arguably not even the worst example!
I will say this about the power levels. It makes me not care about anyone who isn’t one of the strongest. When they sideline Goku so that the other guys can have an arc I just think it’s dumb, because if Goku was there he would ‘no diff’ as you say, them instantly. And that just feels dumb that they are making me sit through this arc of characters I don’t care about. Iwould care, if they weren’t weak. So in that sense it’s not the power creep that gets me, its the fact that at first Goku is the only one who matters and then at least vegeta and trunks get powerful, and presumably gohan will matter too (I’m only 130 episodes deep right now). To be honest I started watching this show after finishing Dragonball, because I wanted to see what the fuss was about its iconic in the fitness community because all the millennials grew up watching it and getting inspired to train themselves. As such, I don’t even really care about the story. I see why us fitness guys like the show, and I don’t even have the nostalgia factor since I never watched it as a kid.
@@maxdrags3115 Apparently the fact he could even hold his own against Goku and Gohan and damage Cell Max makes him that strong. I don't agree, but a wide amount of people do.
Fans power scale. I promise y'all Writers, artist, and creators don't give a FUCK about Power scaling. Only fans do. Hell even the whole idea of power level was so that the enemy would underestimate their opponents and rely too much on numbers. It wasn't numbers that beat their enemies, it was wit, cunning, and tenacity.
as someone who's writing, i care to a degree. i know that certain characters are stronger than others, and that's whats important. not HOW MUCH stronger, just a general idea. dbz follows that for the most part, and then dbs kinda fucks it up. but getting to absurd numbers can take the watcher/reader out of the story and be like "wait what?" which is my point here
That's not true. You're confusing battleboarding with power scaling. Why do so many people keep saying this in battle shouen fandoms? It's so annoying. Power levels do matter in Dragon Ball, even after namek saga.
No, it was definitely numbers. Goku didn't beat Nappa because he underestimated his power level. He broke his back because his power level was 16000 with Kaioken and the only difference knowing Goku's accurate power level would be is Nappa would die as even more of a coward, Nappa never had an iota of a percentage of a chance of winning that fight, even if Goku underestimated him. The only times where "wit, cunning and tenacity" matter in Dragon Ball are when the two power levels are close enough, and thinking otherwise is just proving you don't understand the story.
I love the transition into the Freeza Saga. Using original lines recorded by Chris Ayres was the icing on an especially yummy cake. Rest in love, Chris. Your performance as Freeza will live on, but your real legacy will be your incredible kindness to everyone you knew.
I wanted to put a rest in peace somewhere in the video, but it didn't really match the tone. I appreciate you liking it, as it was a part of the video I rewatched over and over to make sure it would perfectly encapsulate how great he was as Freeza. Wanted to make it special for that reason and also since Freeza was the start of the insanely large power jumps haha
@Eonity , as a fellow Freeza lover (props to you for spelling it with two E's), I can safely say that you paid that man his due. Congrats on a great video!
Hey guys! If you like the video/my channel, consider following me on twitter and Instagram! Gonna start posting there more :)
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You forgot to put where the saiyan king blew up 3 planets with a single wave of his hand
@ that’s anime only
@@Eonity oh alr
nobody like the comment
Freezer should have been at max 1.200.000, which is more than 60 times stronger than Earth Vegeta.
60 times.
Imagine an human that has 60 times the strenght of one human, he can literally (not a joke) ONE SHOT a Polar Bear and even be able to face Dinosaurs.
What’s more insane is that an absurdly suppressed Beerus sneezed and blew up a planet. This means if Goku is taking a dump and isn’t careful he could destroy the entire universe.
😭😭
Beerus sneezed and released a small Hakai, it wasn't the sneeze itself that destroyed the planet but the Ki released by it, which in Beerus' case is specifically something that destroys what it touches regardless of everything
@Manudiferro-vn3ggand whis blocked full force punches with just fingers so goku could definitely shit a hole through the world with his asshole
@Manudiferro-vn3gg Ki is life energy so the Sneeze released it nonetheless.
i dont think thats how that works haha
Goku went from 8,100 to 3,000,000 in a month... God, I never thought about that, it's so absurd.
And he still has the Kaioken 😭😭
I think it was more than a month but yes
The problem is the obsession with the "power level" numbers that the entire fan base have latched on to. The power levels were just a gimmick from the scouters for a couple arcs, and it was consistently shown that their ability to determine someone's combat effectiveness was dubious.
Yet since they were the only thing anyone had to go off of they became the de-facto way to measure how powerful a character was. It didn't help that daizenshuu released "official multipliers" for transformations and such and it just turned all fights into math problems.
Everyone should stop looking at arbitrary power numbers and multipliers because that's not how fighting is. The Z-Fighters themselves don't use scouters because getting some number from a piece of technology is useless in a fight.
@@slinkyslink5161 Even someone like me who loves numbers does hate power scaling due to how non sensical it is
8,000*
They should've animated the panel break scene but with Goku facing forward knocking it into glass and 'breaking the tv screen'.
Yeah haha would’ve been awesome
DBZ should've ended by the Frieza Saga or the Cell Saga at the latest. Then create a show like Dragon Ball GT which takes place 10 years later and have the Buu Saga along with a rewritten version of the other GT sagas. Put a rewritten version of the Golden Frieza Saga just right before the Shadow Dragon Saga so we can say goodbye to our favorite villain. Then after Goku defeats Syn Shenron, he ascends to godhood and becomes one with the Force just like the Monkey King he was based on.
@@aesop1451the least trash dragon ball fanfic:
Cant tell if you're trolling or if you're serious @@aesop1451
5:08 this gets even worse when you account for Anime filler like King Vegeta destroying 3 planets with a wave of his hand, and Vegeta destroying Arlia with just a finger beam
as cool as those scenes are i wouldn't count them
The king vegeta one isn't Canon
@@WalidWatterson-oe9ly neither is the Vegeta one, they’re both filler
Well to be fair, it wasn't a wave of hand that destroyed the planets, I think he used a ki explosion
They are canon to the z anime not Kai
The actual mistake: destroying the moon and not caring about the consequences to the planet itself.
Cuh they shoot ki blasts fly have an aura around them when they power up n u only bring up the moon 😂🤣🤣🤣
@@Thaglabx13 You know if earths moon were to simply disapear it would catastrophic right? Your comment shows you know next to nothing on how our planet actually works. Look up what happens to planets that becoming tidal locked. Or what would happen if we happen no more seasons. Or if the planet no longer had an axis.
@hell_march6652 this just proves how much of a dum ahh u are 🤣😂😂
@hell_march6652 r u slow in the head or just plain sped I'm saying that because obviously in their uni their laws of physics r different 😂🤣🤣
@hell_march6652 how slow is you in the head my boy u fkn dum ahh 😂I'm saying that because obviously in their uni their laws of physics r different 😂🤣🤣
The energy needed to blow up the moon is about 10 billion times the the combined explosive yield of the global nuclear arsenal. The energy needed to blow up the earth is about 1300 times the energy needed to blow up the moon. That means farmer with a shotgun with his power level of 5 should easily be a continent busting threat. Yeah, I can't take power levels seriously.
That just means power levels aren't linear with attack potency
Power levels were apparently not linear before 1k, so Goku with a power level of 10 vs the farmers 5 is like multiple times.
@@Eonity If it's still exponential below 1k than it makes even less sense for Raditz to lose. Akira just pulled numbers at random, so there isn't any consistent order to measure with.
Yeah that’s fair, I’m also pretty sure he didn’t think about the energy needed to destroy the moon
The only proper way to do power scaling is how the late Stan Lee said it in an interview
"Who's going to win? WHOEVER THE HECK I WANT TO WIN!"
To be honest, Toriyama should have just established that frieza was a big fish in a small pond by saying he was only the strongest in the galaxy instead of the whole universe since that would prevent villains being stronger than Frieza from being a problem. But I don't blame him for not doing that since I remember hearing that he was planning to end the series by that point.
Yeah exactly I agree for sure. Toriyama didn’t plan to end the series anytime before the buu saga haha. Those are all misconceptions spread around for the sake of it. Every new arc came a week after the last.
Why is it a problem? The two following villains stronger than him didn't exist when Frieza was alive and the third was sealed.
@@pkj2148 yeah but in dbs somehow everyone was so much stronger than in dbz, able to match goku and vegeta in their base forms which far surpassed the super saiyan god form
@@Eonity I agree about DBS. I find it ridiculous that Freeza was the stronest in the galaxy and you have random looking fighters in the Tournament of Power who are massively stronger than he was on Namek.
The only beings stronger than Frieza in DBZ were artificial creatures (the Androids and Cell were only around for a couple of weeks and never made it off planet Earth). All of the gods in Super were not planned.
“At the end of the day it’s just a fictional series written by a GOAT.”
I’m so glad farm animals have such quality representation and come along way in achievements
didn't know dbz was made by messi
Baaaa baaaa head cha baaaaa!!
-The Goat
Ronaldo*@@karimkr6805
Toryama was not a goat. He was a ram (an Aries in other words). The Saiyan personality is very much the personality of Aries people...
@@vladivf hehehe that’s good
Chiaotzu being stronger than main antagonist piccolo in 1 years time is actually criminal never realized
What i hate about the broken powerscaling is people starting to make characters whos sole purpose is to get compared to goku (eg. Rimuru, Anos, Hajun, Featherine, etc) which opened a new era where if a character isnt some omnipotent god they arent really mentioned in powerscaling
bro featherine was made years before battle of god came out and the only people who care about umineko powerscaling are people who haven't read it
@@alephnull8463that may be true but the only reason most people know who she is, is through powerscaling against Goku and others.
How did you even come to the conclusion that any of these characters were made with the intent of beating or even being compared to Goku?
@obiwankenobi7306 Facts. Beyond that her popularity would be none.
@@alephnull8463 carzy i dont even know about halfof the carracters but i am pretty sure the carracters you mentioned can solo dragon boll
didnt realize i was watching a low subscriber count channel with how high quality this video was
@@Komaruluten bro holy shit thank you this is such a nice comment I appreciate it so much, if you really liked it you should subscribe for more high quality content I have so many more dbz vid ideas :D
@@Eonity
Yeah I thought the same, I was wondering if I was subscribed thinking you had like 100k at least but was honestly surprised you have less than 2k but I'm sure you'll get way more in the future if you keep this quality up!
@ that’s the plan! :D
@@Eonity holy shit I didn't even notice that until I saw this comment. I definitely thought this was a huge content creator and I kept thinking "its good to see big names that still respond to their fans" great work!
@@ctlan3554 haha nah I’m just a small content creator. Soon maybe!
The first manga to use numerical power levels wasn't Dragon Ball but Kinnikuman (a series that in general invented a lot of shonen cliches that Dragon Ball would later use). The first major antagonist of Kinnikuman, Robin Mask, had a power level of 960,000. The final antagonist, Super Phoenix, had a power level of 100,000,000. This means the Frieza fight alone (Frieza going from 560 thousand to 120 million) has more power creep than the entire Kinnikuman manga.
I love fun facts haha
530.000 but yeah that was insane
I personally would have made the first form 200.000 thats still above everyone on his army with only ginyu his most loyal man being close
Second form at 350.000 third 500.000
Final form at 2 million at 50% and 4 million at 100%
Meanwhile the ginyu zenkai would push goku to 100 k and at kaioken x10 01 million x20 2 million and as a ssj 5 million
At least this way powercreep is held back as much as possible during the arc if possible would also not give ssj to the other saiyans untill AFTER goku recovers from the heart virus
@@danielgonzalez-vm5ljYeah, much better. I would have scrapped multipliers and just scaled down it a lot. Frieza is the emperor of the galaxy.
Raditz has like, 600 power level. Nappa has like 800 and Vegeta something of around 1200. Ginyu something like 4000, first form Frieza should be weaker than his strongest soldiers imo, so like 3000. Last form something around 10000.
@@danielgonzalez-vm5ljbut that only turns absolutely dumb powercreep to "just" very bad powercreep. No matter how you slice it power level tennis is just dumb.
@@danielgonzalez-vm5lj I would give frieza and everyone PL 10 times weaker and it make more sense. He didnt need to be stronger than ginyu at his first form
The very funny consequence of how Dragon Ball is written, is that Goku comes out as being absolutely TERRIBLE at power levels. He may have the higest power level in the group - but he always is one step of training ahead. Then when the supporting cast do the training Goku did an acr prior - they come out of it multiple times stronger than Goku was after that same training. And this actually happens both in DB and DBZ.
Goku after training with Kami can fight Piccolo, Krillin after training with Kami stomps Radditz. This goes for basically every power up in the show Og and Z alike. One can only speculate what would happen if they let the supporting cast do the same training as Goku an arc prior ^^'
As for the Freeza situation, to be fair the blame is somewhat on the Editors, not just Toriyama. Now first things first - we need to start with the fact that Toriyama himself has said that as far as he is concerned, after beating Piccolo / suprassing Kami - he couldn't really imagine Goku getting any stronger. He surpassed god. How much stronger can you get from there?
This is why starting with Z - the enemies are aliens, why the gravity training gets introduced, and why power ups come in form of transformations. Toriyama wrote the show fighting against his own mental block saying that Goku can't really get stronger by training. He's a max level character. But then the editors throw a wedge, by requesting the villains to change. Toriyama didn't plan on Freeza having multiple transformations, he didn't plan on there being even stronger andrids, he didn't plan on there being a cell, nor cell having transformations. These all only happened because the editor didn't like the designs and thought they do not convey the big bad well enough. And because Toriyama wanted to have an in universe reason for why these things kept happening - the thing that made the most sense was that, they transform to get stronger. Not to look better.
So while Freeza's original power level of 520k was still absurd, as Super Saiyan was already a pre-determined solution against Freeza, the transformations just had to make the Zenkais and Super Saiyan more and more absurd than originally planned.
Yeah I’ve thought about this, didn’t know how to put it into the video and make it feel consistent
Yeaaa that's honestly bad, Cell Saga solved this problem halfway, and the reason why Goku leaves most of the cast behind is not only because he is a Saiyan but also because he trains much smarter.
dragon ball power level problem is just a consequence of the plot needing strong villans but at the same time the maincast need to put up a fight so it is engaging so they are given artificial power ups but then once we have a new arc we need even stronger villans meaning the maincast need to be even stronger and the cycle repetes
(i mean do you want me to believe that base cabba is universal level)(or that humans have a higher growth rate than a literal race of space warriors that evolved to fight)
Pretty sure the blonde hair and blue eyes also cut ink costs.
Dragon Ball is honestly not a good written show or manga. It's even below average in that aspect, in my opinion.
Toriyama already wasn't good at it, editorial pushbacks made it even worse. The thing with "oh he didn't think that hard" is that it just isn't an excuse. It breaks immersion and it creates inconsistencies and absurdities all over the plot. It's not like authors have to know everything about physics, but they should respect the bare, bare minimum of doing a bit of research for their writings. It should be at least marginally logically coherent.
Dragon Ball is an excellent Martial Arts comedy, it also does have great moments, actions and very iconic characters, so it's a franchise I appreciate A LOT. But the writing really leaves a sore taste. The story doesn't make any sense if you put even a little bit of thought into it. without dogmatically trying to fill every hole without any evidence.
Goten and Trunks turning super saiyan as a 'child's play thing' is a point in DBZ where people are like 'yeah thats kind of absurd' lol
That's why I kinda shrugged at the tingling back thing with the U6 Saiyans in Super. We already had children with zero trauma and anger bring out the Super Saiyan transformation. The kids didn't even think it was a big deal. Even Vegeta and Gohan thought it was ridiculous.
@@jamesfitzgerald1684 I just told myself that when you go SS once it changes your DNA so that it can be passed on genetically to your children. And never thought about it again.
What? A DB Super related video that isn't completely blinded by nostalgia and misunderstanding of the original series? That's crazy... Finally.
Great video.
From the Cell saga onwards, the average fighters could destroy the Earth even by accident.
yes exactly
Technically even before then. You have 17,000ish level Vegeta casually blowing up planets, a 300ish level Piccolo blowing up the moon with one quick blast. Frankly anything shown after Raditz (and including him) would be massive overkill
Someone doesn’t understand energy control
@@MattyGears1583You don't need energy control, all you need to do is aim your attack at the ground.
@MattyGears1583 what the fk does energy control matter to someone like broly? Earth should be screwed. Thank god buu had the balls and actually nuked earth but in dragon ball, death doesnt exist
I agree with your point on how power creep doesn't ruin the series, but it does create some problems that get a little annoying when to the extent seen in db like having side characters gain ridiculous asspulls power boosts in order to keep up and disrespecting previous enemies like you said, great video btw
thanks for the compliment on the video you have no idea how much it means haha. Regardless, it does get annoying but that annoyance is mostly in DBS for me, in DBZ it's decently consistent for the most part. The craziest thing was Tien holding back Cell with a Kikoho, but that was also really cool so I didn't care as much
and obviously in DB it isn't really even there, their power boosts are pretty normal for the most part. getting decently strong within reason lol
Yeah idk why they always make a character no diff another if they get a little stronger, like everytime someone goes into a time chamber that mf comes out not to just beat the main villain, but to absolutely embarrass him😭😭
I feel like db always tries to hype up character power ups to a point that it just makes it so everyone has to get 10x stronger per arc just to keep up
yeah toriyama definitely had a method lmfao
Thank god someone said it. Goku been jumping thousands of times to millions of times in days
“Even though we never see ‘m again” 😂😂😂😂 I love how dedicated you are to no spoilers ❤
Haha its mostly a joke but thank you my man
Insanely good video, love to see a Dragon Ball fan who doesn't have some agenda and can also read
Ah thank you man :)
Yo, that was a badass intro for Freeza.
Thank you man 😎
@@EonityBro tho he was making a yt shorts edit 🧐
@@misterlinux9290 is that supposed to be funny? Some type of joke? It really aint
Yeah he was
Don't forget that SSJ2 Gohan was like, immediately broken, because Perfect Cell makes the half-dozen Cell Jrs who are the same power level as him, and Gohan takes out ALL of them with one hit each, even thought they're 80% of his full power at SSJ2
SSJ2 Gohan is not and never was a 2x boost, I guess you didn't pay attention in all of DBZ which has always been repeatedly hitting you upside the head with the fact that Gohan has absurd amounts of hidden power that only come out when he's angry. The first time we see him he could go from a power level of 1 to over 1000 when he got angry in the Raditz fight, but sure, he didn't get any amount of rage boost when fighting Cell.
@TheAsj97 I never tried to quantify his SSJ2 boost, BUT, like SSJ one was when Goku fought Frieza: it very much IS A multiplier, regardless of whether or not we see Gohan's power increase with rage. Based on what I could find online (and have always seen based on those same resources without having a copy of the Daizenshuu) SSJ2 Gohan is 5 billion in terms of power; supposedly Full Power Perfect Cell - his hail Mary at the end to try and match Gohan's strength at the expense of speed - is 4 billion. That's the same level the Cell Jrs would be, and again, Gohan ONE SHOT THEM. Not Ultimate or Mystic Gohan, just SSJ2 pre-teen Gohan, one-diffing guy because of 1 billion point gap. Could he have gotten a boost from being enraged? Sure, why not, that itself got turned into a form during Black Goku Arc, but I would be shocked if it was as substantial as when he was a kid and suddenly went - as you said - from 1 to 1000. That seems like one of those things they'd need him lose as he learns to harness his power to use it at all times (which it what the Mystic was) because if he didn't then by that same logic he should always be more powerful than everyone by just getting enraged on top of whatever state he's in.
There's an easy explanation.
They have no battle expirience and don't protect their vitals as well + he had the surprise attack
@@TheAsj97 I mean, SSJ2 Gohan was never a specific X times boost. He was as strong as the story required. Toriyama was past using specific power levels at that point so it's really all up to speculation how much power Gohan had then.
@@benbajillionaireno, ssj isn’t a just a multiplier bro. Ssj1 (namek saga) didn’t multiplier, it add 147 million power to the user. Ascended ssj (Vegeta vs semi cell) is: [base x20]+147 million. Ultra ssj (trunks vs cell) is: [base x40]+147 million. And perfected ssj (Goku vs cell) is: [base x50]+147 million. Ssj2 is just [[base x50]+147 million]x2, and power level isn’t linear (power level 8 is not 3 higher than 5, but it like multiple time higher) and it depend on ki control too. That why in broly arc, Vegeta said their power is not far from jiren, but they lost because jiren controlled his ki so well.
The way I see it on how whack the power scaling is, Dragon Ball had a small fire on the stove. Dragon Ball Z's kitchen is on fire. Dragon Ball Super's house is on fire lol
perfect analogy
Power scaling was over when piccolo went from last than 5.000 to half a million after 1 month of training and a fusion with a gimp. After that, i stopped caring about the number they were shouting.
he didn't even train for most of that month, legit around or before goku went to his 6 day trip to namek, he gets a call from king kai and we learn that they just got to him, piccolo got dozens of times stronger in *less than a week*
I think you raised the best point near the end: it's actually amazing how well grounded most of the arcs/fights are considering how ridiculous the scaling got so quickly.
Yeah for sure it’s a highlight of the series
One of the most ridiculous things Super did was to make Roshi absurdly strong. In OG Dragon Ball he couldn't even beat Demon King Piccolo. He is not seen training a day in his life after that. Then they expect us to believe he is strong enough to beat Freeza's henchmen in Resurrection of F and also be powerful enough to contend with Tournament of Power level foes?
I don't buy it. The fact the Goku picked him over Yamcha who is supposed to have been stronger than Roshi ever since the 23rd World Martial Arts Tournament is an insult.
Just cause we didn’t see it didn’t mean it didn’t happen. With krillin living there why wouldn’t he train? Freeza soldiers are only around a couple hundred to a thousand, so they aren’t really strong in hindsight. I’d argue in favor of master roshi being way stronger than them by the time dbs rolls around.
Goku picked Roshi because the TOP isn’t just about power, about ringing your opponent out. He chose Roshi for his wisdom. Yeah he hasn’t visually shown to train, only said to be offscreen, but even still in the manga his power is described as dirt low and only made it that far in because of his skillset. He gets ringed out by Jiren because Jiren put a little bit more effort after being caught off guard by his dodging. Hell in the anime most of his ring outs are through strategy like the Mafuba and assisting Tien with thunder shock surprise. The only brute force ring out was against Ganos and it nearly killed Roshi anyway.
As for the Frieza Force I’m pretty sure it was implied that they’d gotten weaker because they’re too reliant on tech iirc. Though tbf resurrection F isn’t exactly the most well written arc so there can be a point there.
@@normangargantua139 Bro stop the cap !
Why pick Roshi over Yamcha who is stronger ? Because Roshi can help ring people out ? Does it even matter if Roshi is to weak to stand his ground in the first place ? They just wanted to have Roshi in the TOP regardless of pre-established logic.
Roshi himself stated that he is no longer on par with the Z-warriors since he didn't even participate in the Tenkaichi tournament where Kami and Piccolo joined .
Where was Roshi when Nappa and Vegeta no diff the entire team ? Where was he when Dr Gero and N°19 were ravaging the city ? Where was he in the Cell tournament ? But all of suddent for the TOP he is there ? Tsk stop it !
Heck Goten and Trunk would have been better candidate for the TOP than Kuririn and Roshi and they could fuse too . Drop the "Oh they are children" because in the Buu saga they were the only hope everyone on earth had since they didn't knew Ultimate/Mystic Gohan was alive.
Roshi eliminate no one important in the TOP !
@ “Roshi eliminated no one important in the TOP” every elimination in the TOP is important dawg. It’s a numbers game, the team with the most players wins if the time runs out. Every elimination saves the stronger characters a bit of energy and that’s important
It’s seriously not that big of a deal. He trained off screen, he got stronger. It’s not that deep. He didn’t even get THAT much stronger, like only ahead of Tien. He gets no diffed by base Goku and folded by Frost effortlessly.
Goten and Trunks are kids and are likely to get ringed out by smarter opponents. Need I remind you they literally fumbled against Super Buu because of how cocky they were? They probably would’ve been picked off by Frost, that illusion character Roshi fought, or literally any cunning character.
“He stated he is no longer on par with the Z-warriors” well maybe he just wanted to train again??? Iirc he stated Goku and Krillin were inspirations for him to train again. Obviously he’s not gonna be trying to fight Android 20 or 19 or Cell because he didn’t go through that training yet
@@normangargantua139 That is cap and you know it too well !
Goten and Trunk de-fusing against Super Buu is because they didn't knew the Fusion would get shorter with Transformation like super saiyan 3 .Them being Cocky is understandable since they were stronger than Super Buu . The fact they got absorbed is on Gohan and Piccolo since they should have wiser but got fooled just like Goten and Trunk .
How can Roshi become stronger than Tienshinhan who never stop grinding ? Make it make sense ! Tienshinhan trained with Kami and King-Kai and have never stopped since. How would Roshi who was weaker than Tienshinhan at the start of Z and didn't get trained by those godly trainer get ahead ?
In the TOP power make right ! Jiren hall of fame moves are just basic stuff and he destroyed anyone . Goten and trunk as super saiyan are leagues above Roshi and they can fuse for 30 minutes if they don't transform. It's nice that Roshi can use the Mafuba and the containement energy wave but that doesn't amount to anything when his opponent are faster than him .
Again Roshi didn't eliminate anyone important in the TOP. Goten and Trunk would have done as much as him and even more they are just that much stronger .
Man i wished Jackie Chun appeared again. I always wonder where he is for the past 30+ years😅
Me too. Is he beerus level by now?
dead unless.... HE IS A GOD THATS BEEN HIDING FROM EVERYONE AND HAS SURPASSED EVERYONE!!!!!!!!
@ Jackie chun stronger than Beerus?
didn't he appear again in the tournament after he first appeared?
Ask Tien.
This channel is INSANELY underrated! I love all of these points and video entirely. Keep it up man!
you guys are so sweet thank you so much
This is precisely the reason I don't debate db fans in terms of fictional battles, they're hardly consistent and reliable. Super Sayian Trunks shouldn't be able to hold his own against Goku Black and vice versa. Thank you for this video
The older I get the more baffling it becomes that DBZ actually works as a show. It has some major flaws but somehow we all keep watching.
It’s the love of the characters we already know
I think it's because the characters are so fun with a good amount of depth.
Also the show is just fun and simple. It's for causals, it knows when to be serious too.
7 palabras: N O S T A L G I A
(9)
Maybe because it's a great show. You can find huge flaws in everything and even the best show you can find won't be for everyone. For instance... I stopped caring about Naruto when the war arc came about since it felt like it was less about ninjas and more about superhuman (aliens) with powers and energy moves.
Many don't like the pacing in one piece (rightfully so), and attack on Titan turned into crap in its last season, and lets not forget Seven deadly sins. However, it doesn't mean you can't enjoy the shows regardless of those facts.
Good characters make up for a lot of flaws
10/10 video tbh, you were always keeping up with revelant points in the video truly quality content there, i was so entertained that i didnt notice when the video ended lol
Stop man I’m gonna cry 🥹🥹
It certainly ruined the fandom by making the fans into insufferable power scalers who think other series are bad because the characters are not as visibly overpowered, while also dismissing the concept of fighting smarter instead of harder (aka weaker characters being able to beat stronger opponents through a creative use of their abilities)
Nobody unironically thinks a show is bad because the mc can't blow up a planet. Now granted there is a vocal minority of kids who spams "Goku negs" on tiktok, but generally no functioning adult does that kinda stuff. I personally don't see what's so bad about wanting to figure out how strong a character is.
That first point you made is something I've never witnessed. I've never heard any DB individual call a series bad because said character is weaker than Goku. Maybe they would critique the character itself, but not the series, and even in regard to that, it's more so them calling the character weak, as opposed to it being "bad"
To be fair, there's not too many clever abilities that can bridge a gap as big as the power gap between most characters and Dragon ball. A few, bit not many.
@@diplomatofthesosbrigade931 literally the majority of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure just for starters
also anything dealing with ghosts, psychic power, curses, or anything that bypasses physical strength
also any abilities or power systems that allow the characters to take ridiculous shortcuts (I em looking at you Ben 10)
@@malekat8539 came across it WAY too often during the days of the Big 3, and still see it pop its head from time to time when people discuss stuff like My Hero Academia, Kimetsu no Yaiba, or JuJutsu Kaisen
0:30 it’s wild because it’s not true, goku went in ssjb so that krillin couldn’t sense how much he was holding back
yeah but do you really expect dragon ball fans to understand the nuances of something that isn't explicitly stated when frieza's base form is EXPLICITLY stated to be his base form yet there was a 24k liked tweet the other day saying "super is so bad because it tricked people into thinking frieza's fourth form is his base form" this fandom has no hope
Nope watch the show krillin is not ssj3 goku lvl
@@dankerbellwhat do you expect? DB fans can't read, hell, Shonen fans can't read.
Agreed. People need EVERYTHING to be specifically called out for them to believe it and refuse to think on context.
@@Koodllezwho tf said Krillin was DBS SSJ3 Goku level?
5:35 That Freeza intro was GOATED 😳🔥
@@sdot7117 thank you 😭🙏🏼
I think its more accepted in Dragonball and DBZ because we actually see the characters training.
In Super were expected to just accept that out of nowhere they're as strong as they're claimed to be, also nothing in the entirety of Dragonball goes beyond the nonsense of Roshi who hasn't had a fight or ANY display of training since Dragonball suddenly being able to handle himself in the Tournament of Power.
In Dragon Ball, power levels were always exaggerated, but in Dragon Ball Super, they became even more inconsistent. The series seems to disregard them entirely at times. For example, in the fight against Hit, Vegeta is forced to transform into Super Saiyan Blue just to keep up with Hit, only to be defeated in a single punch. Meanwhile, Goku takes Vegeta's place and has no trouble catching up with Hit in his base form, which makes no sense given the power disparity shown earlier.
5:26 this sequence right here is very cool, i love it
I appreciate you liking it, it took me a while to figure out how to make it cool :)
It goes so hard
Ngl I always hate how much people transfix on super scaling as though it’s the only case of jumps in scaling. Great video.
Especially becuase Toriyama said power levels don't matter after the Frieza saga, and that when writing Super he went back to the idea of "whoever does the best martial arts wins the fight".
Great video, great presentation. Keep it up! You definitely deserve more subs than what you've got.
@@cameroncowles6232 I appreciate that so much 😭🙏🏼
I just ran into this channel I really liked the video and the top... But we're really got me to subscribe was the ending... I don't know why but it just felt so genuine. "Love you, bye."... Love you too stranger :)!
I love anyone who would watch me yap for over ten minutes :)
5:06 Bro his fuckin INTRODUCTION was destroying a planet
Anime only tho but yeah. Crazy
Just say stupid. don't sugarcoat
This is a a very good constructive video that addresses and highlights a issue I see in powerscaling these days. To put it into perspective vaporizing the moon in the way Roshi did requires many Yottatons of force in the Comprehensive Energy Scale which is Large Planetary. A Yottaton is a thousand times more powerful then a zettaton, the GBE of Mars is 1.444 zettatons. Earth's GBE would require 59.44 zettatons. Even the NOVA bomb UNSC superweapon in Halo which has different yields depending on which source you ask from it can range form 1.2 petatons to many exatons because it can crack both a moon and a planet from 10,000 of miles away in space at the same time. Yet that doesn't compare to Master Roshi in Original Dragon Ball's feat of attack potency.
The UNSC's Orbital mac cannons are said to produce yields that are equal to 46.5 gigatons which is over 4 times greater then the concept yield of the Project Sundial bomb which was 10 gigatons which in itself is 200 times more powerful then the Tsar Bomba, the UNSC uses these weapons to mount a effective defense against the Covenant's greatest of Assault Carriers.
If you think about it a character who has Country level (7 -100 teratons) striking strength and durability alone would be a massive powerhouse in most settings and would be a tremendous threat to entire worlds alone where average ground base militaries cannot stop such a character without even more extreme firepower like the Imperium of Man would probably need to use a exterminatus weapon such as the Cyclonic Torpedo to actually take such a character out in Warhammer 40k and those are not cheap but expensive and costly for their worldbuilding and it's not recommended for their military to do that constantly for the waste of planetary resources it causes.
A single power level in Dragon Ball might as well make you a continent level with the way it was implemented unintentionally since the Moon vaporization feat and all thing following after that. Which means Farmer with a shotgun with a power level 5 would solo alot of anime worlds like My Hero Academia which has often gigaton to teraton feats at the end.
Power creep needs to be kept under control while worldbuilding and it cannot be allowed to go beyond a certain point without traits and active restrictions that keep it restrained. Worldbuilding franchise that set parameters and relativistic limitations in universe for their created power systems and scaling are the best at keeping such things in check without over dramatically raising the stakes to astronomical level of "Oh no we have a being who is a billion times stronger then the last antagonist and can destroy the entire universe for the one hundredth time wielding macro universe cosmic levels of energy" kind of narrative which gets too chaotic and inconsistent after it's repeated over and over with no good creativity and set limitations. There needs to be standards that are carefully thought of in depth.
Power creep is something that must be kept under control and under certain in universe circumstances that keeps it under raps. Is Morgoth in JRR Tolkien mythology a universe buster? No he isn't but it doesn't mean he isn't a threat to the world and the most powerful evil entity in universe.
Is Ganondorf busting solar systems and is as durable as that? No he is not but he doesn't have to be to be a great powerful villain. Does Star Wars Expanded Universe Luke Skywalker have galaxy level attack potency, striking strength, durability, and a million times faster then light combat speed? No absolutely not but he becomes a powerful hero one of the strongest Force wielders in existence.
The same thing has to be applied to other animes and franchises.
Naruto is surely not destroying stars and solar systems nor is Gojo destroying a celestial body.
Heck sometimes you don't even need to compel a omnipotent being to do such a spectacle to prove their power and glory in creation. Like in Narnia Aslan doesn't do that despite being God the Son Jesus/Yahusha of the Bible he doesn't showoff his power like Dragon Ball characters do to that extent. There are other ways of show casing a character's power without going the Marvel and DC comics of cosmic glamorizing route.
Power levels should have not been introduced in Dragon Ball Z at all
Nice video man, love DB, great presentation here. Hope you put out more DB, anime vids 👏💜🟠🐉
Yeah I will for sure! Thanks for your support brother 🩵
Second the comment mentioning the great quality! Keep up the great work! Subs and thumbs, with a little comment for the algo 🤙🏼
thank you :)
I'm surprised you didn't go over the fact dr gero created androids far above super saiyans... With up to saiyan saga data lol
people give the Androids a pass cuz its cool and they enjoy it, but the idea some guy can just create cyborgs that can kill Super Saiyan's is so fuckin insane lol. then they do it again in Super Hero.
4:02 To add to this Goku when he fought King Piccolo had a PL of 260, so Krillin in a single year of training went from weaker than that to 1770. Goku was taught by Kami as well and for 3 years but didn't have anywhere near the same amoint of gains.
Yes!! Exactly thank you
Krillin trained with kami and trained by himself
Krillin's just built different
As a dragon ball scaler myself, this is pretty good showing the absurdity of these overpowered characters, some nitpicks I have but overall solid 👍
Thanks I’m also a power scaler so I appreciate it
@@Eonity that just makes your message at the end, that much more hypocritical lol
Semi Perfect Cell: How are you this strong?
Vegeta: I trained all day yesterday.
Amazing video for small channel. Really well done
I remember often saying how BAD the power scalling in DB as a whole is, and there would always be at least a 50% chance that someone would always pop saying "Ermm actually, DBZ power scalling is fine its just DBS that screw it up!"
And I'm always like: "My brother in christ.. did you watched the show??" (No he didn't, DBZ fans dont watch the show)
I finished DB and I’m about 130 episodes into DBZ, right before the androids show up. It was pretty clear to me what was going on with the power creep from the start. Goku gets too strong for all known enemies, so they introduce new ones, or sideline goku so the rest of the fighters can have an arc that Goku would one shot if he was there. Then repeat. Then they just stopped attaching numbers to the power increases. At no point did the scaling not seem absurd. I just don’t care because my reasons for watching the show are gratuitous. I want the characters to get more and more powerful in an absurd way. I want them to train in 400x gravity and be able to be OP for any threat. It’s pure gratuitous power for me. That’s what makes the show cool. Because the same trope can just be done over again, just make some new alien stronger than super saiyan Goku and make Goku train ina time chamber and get strong enough to OP the new guy.
Power creep,doesn’t ruin it for me because I was never in it for the story. I got into it to see what all the fuss was about in the fitness community. And I understand. We are jacked dudes who like super hero’s and absurd training. It gives us inspiration. But that being said, I don’t know how anyone could watch DBZ and not quickly understand what was happening. The creep is out of control from pretty early on.
The _only_ issue with power scaling is when it leaves behind characters that could be very interesting additions to the plot. But this can happen regardless of minimal or absurd power cliffing.
Because at the end of the day, in a minimal power cliffing (i.e., horizontal power scaling) story, said character can always come in and still be relevant with little effort, and in a absurd power cliffing story, any character can just get training or a power up from X, Y, or Z and be re-introduced without much issue. It's entirely on the writing in general to utilize characters or not, which then is what is to blame when certain characters aren't used or are left behind (Tien, Krillin, Chiaotzu, 17 and 18, and Trunks and Goten are characters with already deep technique bags, while Chi-chi, Videl, the U6 Saiyans, Uub, and Yamcha are aspiring fighters with a mostly blank canvas for techniques that can be filled with almost anything. And all of them can easily become relevant with just one or two hand-wave power-ups - or just straight up training for the U6 Saiyans and Uub's case).
I don't need to watch the video to agree with its title. Power levels (scaling) never made sense to me in this franchise.
you should still watch :D
@@Eonity
Maybe later.
Yeah the power levels have always been insane, but that's not the reason people say super ruined the power scale. It's because weaker characters like roshi are somehow stronger than characters like Tien with absolutely no explanation.
Even crazier when it was revealed that Freeza never even trained.
Your use of clips from DBZ Kai (especially that Frieza edit) was immaculate. Good video!
Ah man that means so much, I really tried to make that part stand out! :)
also wanna point out i tried to use the best footage possible. i think dbz kai is a superior version of dbz so i used that, but i also used the color corrected original dragon ball footage that fans did and even used super hd versions of the movies and other things. i appreciate you noticing it, it means a lot
Alot of people don't understand just how crazy 50x for am multiplier is.
let's assume you take the average punch of an adult is 150 psi
if you multiply that by 50 you get 7,500 psi
an alligator's bite is 2,000 psi
you're punching 3.75 times that with a significantly lower surface area.
Power scaling is a joke. half of the time the author did just a cool move and did not calculate the consequences.
Grown men watching cartoons we used to watch as kids till now is unfathomable
grown men cooking other grown men for having interests like we used to do as kids in a playground is unfathomable
Dragon Ball Super Didn't Ruin Power Scaling, it ruined the whole series, so bad
agreed. I'm not disrespecting akira's work. but dbs is boring for me
I actually agree! Maybe ill use this as a video title…
@@Eonity some things just end.and are perfect but money changes this :( always said it....dbz was the end ..gt, etc...moneymaking "soulless" crap ...
It also makes little sense that Goku is always ahead of Vegeta despite the latter being born several hundreds of times stronger than him and much more rigorous in his training.
At least Goku has never beaten Vegeta.
Vegeta never trained before meeting goku tho
@@agu9302 this is a blatant lie
@@easydubs420 how so? Nothing implies he ever trained before meeting goku
@@agu9302 fighting/sparing is a form of training, which is what he did every planet he conquered
2:58 Popo aint letting that slide bro.
holy shit you're so right im cooked
@@Eonity pecking order
Dragon ball lost its credibility when frieza did a few pushups and surpassed everyone while goku and Vegeta trained for decades to reach their level😂😂😂
To be somewhat fair, he is a mutant similar to Broly.
@@maxdrags3115 He was literally born with a power level of 120 Mio without ever lifting a finger, and had to invent multiple suppression forms just to suppress and control his own power. If Goku can jump from, 8000 to 3 Mio within a month with 2 Zenkai boosts and a week of training in 100 times gravity, what stops Frizea from making massive jumps by busting his ass off for 4 months? Not saying it makes sense, but the scaling in DB has always been ridiculous.
First time watching any of your videos, and I must say, this is one of the best pieces of content I've ever seen!
I'm definitely interested in more DB content from you, and keep up the fantastic work;
Thank you Ace PFP I appreciate that so much! New vid this Friday! :)
@Eonity well I better look forward to Friday then! Have a great week!
To this day I still remember the ‘oh shit’ moment I had when King Kai revealed that Goku had been using the Kaio Ken at max from the start. Nothing has come close since.
@@mrbubbles6468 that was really sick. Seeing all the scenes again but with the Kaioken was crazy
with that much power, the fights shouild look more epic than mere throwing kicks and punches and blasting some rocks
Peak content, great voice acting, the visuals are interesting and the script is great, keep at it
THANK YOU!!!!!!! It's so greatly appreciated man seriously
I mean it's true, Super is just blatantly worse when it comes to the power scaling. I mean it's hot garbage there
Really good video! You brought up some interesting questions and topics i havn't heard about elsewhere.
Ah I’m glad to hear that. These are things I’ve thought for YEARS and just never got around to making a video. I’m glad you enjoyed :)
This is the analysis I have wanted for decades.
I think I give a pass to old db because it ended fast enough before the nonsense got too bad. But I won't lie, Namek Zenkai were so bad.
yeah i agree
resident reminder, stan lee was not debunking power scaling or the use of it or power levels. or even crosses verse battles.
what stan lee was saying is, i as an author cant tell you how another author would write their work. therefore i cannot tell you who would win in a fight. the author of that story would tell you.
at most he is telling ppl to stop asking him who wins and how he would write it, but he never says anything about fans having those discussions of their own accord. because if you take his statement at face value he would also be saying "dont do cross verse match ups in your imagination because only writers can do that."
??? okay
@ this is not in reference to you specifically, its to ppl that ise Stan Lee’s quote to say that power scaling is BS with him as an authority on the subject.
He didint dismiss it. He explained why he shouldnt be asked the question.
There is thread comment to a top level comment on this video where someone references SL’s quote.
This is just cope. Fans were asking Stan Lee precisely because fan discussions of who will win against who almost always end up nowhere. He (the author) is seen as the ultimate authority, the highest judge, whose conclusion is law.
There's no objective metric by which you can judge anything. There's no point in trying to find one. All of these power level arguments are useless, because when you imagine those battles YOU'RE THE AUTHOR. When two people are arguing about two characters, it's akin to them both writing a collaborative work. Instead of bashing imaginary toys against one another, people should enjoy stories and characters. This is what Stan meant.
@@kindlingking you agree with the point i am making. He doesnt tell others to not do it tho. Hes gives his point from a writers perspective. As a writer the writer decides. He didnt say “these things should never be talked about because the only authority is the writer.”
And your point makes the same point i was making in the reverse “youre the author” - right. Which is why he shouldnt be asked and why he wouldnt be telling ppl to stop doing that practice entirely. You only need an imagination to do that an everyone has one.
I do agree with the point that people should enjoy stories and characters for what they are. One of the ways people do this is by power scaling and vs matches. your comment starts off as if to refute mine or my premise, but i think we agree in the larger direction.
I think the best and most insane part of all this is that the earth has withstood all this power😂😂😂 like I understand the “ki control” to not destroy the ground under you but dude a Solar Kame should ANNIHILATE the world
not to mention there's been battles on earth with people like super Broly who couldn't control his power at all
realistically he would blink and destroy the solar system with lowball 😭
Beautiful video new sub
Thank you man
How Goku went into the healing chamber with a power level of 90,000 to 3,000,000 baffles me every time I rewatch.
your video is sooo good, hope you get a lot of subscribe :)
Thank you so much I really appreciate it so much
this vid kinda highlights a problem i have with the series. most of the fights are insanely one-sided with not alot of back and forth. one guy either gets his ass kicked or the other one does which gets a little repetitive
This is why I prefer Dragon Ball. More martial arts and the fights were more interesting and grounded.
we never saw jackie chun again, lol
:(
@@Eonity I wonder whatever happened to him, we will never know
@@pondfishrancher Tien knows.
:D :D
04:19 it took us 1900 years to make cars, and only 40 years after we went to space
Great video stating correct power levels and correct strength for kid buu. Too many channels giving wrong power levels. You earned a sub!
I honestly knew all this off the top of my head due to growing up and intaking this info, I’m glad you enjoyed! I appreciate every comment like this 🫶🏼🥹
@@Eonity Same. Started DBZ 25 years ago and watched it like 10-20 times. I hate the way super has taken things and the current braindead fandom who seems to have gotten most of their "knowledge" from tiktok
lol by this point powerlevels really is bullshit
@@kiratwo4u Yeah. Power levels up to Namek Frieza and SSJ Goku. After that it's just who's stronger than who
Extremely based. Dragon Ball has always been like that. A show starts at hand to hand combat between skilled human people (saying skilled since the martial arts experts came later) to ending it with universal power levels. And the story isn't long enough to make it make sense when you really think about it.
None of this means I don't love Dragon Ball, I do, it's literally one of my favorite things in the world. But I always acknowledged how out of this world the scales were. So was always confused when people said this issue started at Super??? Like what? Fans tend to forget all the things you mentioned or overmightify Z.
Yeah and I still think super definitely ruined it to an even worse extent, making people able to contest with even the strongest of gokus forms when they otherwise shouldn’t, just cause the plot necessitates it. But it definitely didn’t start there at all. I’m glad you enjoyed and commented, if you liked this you should subscribe and stay tuned for what I have next
@Eonity I mean, the whole Krillin vs a really contained SSJ Blue Goku makes sense (and I have seen several content creators explain that in detail in videos and shorts) when you consider that the idea is two things.
1. To show how would Krillin deal with opponents who are way, way stronger than him in the Tournament or Power.
2. Since it's using God Ki Krillin can't sense so he can't know how strong they are, which helps with point 1.
@@Eonity Just found one the videos I mentioned. Check Carthu'sDojo's "Krillin equals SSB Goku" short.
Love Carthu so much, but even krillin holding his own for mere moments implies so much more about the series power scaling than it does show that krillin would be able to outdo them in terms of martial arts prowess. The fight before blue was going perfectly, since goku should already be WAYYYY stronger than him in his base form already
The difference is that Krillin would not be taken out by a bullet in Z, SSJ3 Goku wouldn't be Kamehameha struggling against Krillin, 17/18 wouldn't be able to reach SSJ2/3 Goku just because they felt like training sometimes between working and taking care of their family, Piccolo wouldn't get a power boost that would surpass Buu 10 times over just because he asked Shenron nicely, Trunks wouldn't get to Vegito level just because he's magically made his own spirit bomb out of... power of hope(???)... of all 100 people left on the planet...
-and MANY MANY MORE
The first one not really
Krillin literally hurt ssj goku with a regular rock because he was off guard and sleeping same thing happened to goku in resurrection F
@@danielgonzalez-vm5ljThat's how ki works, there's a shroud of ki they keep around themselves to protect from any damage.
If they are relaxed and not in a fight the barrier/shroud of ki is deactivated or not potent enough to protect them from conventional attacks.
@danielgonzalez-vm5lj Exactly, Goku was asleep, plus it was a Filler.
Meanwhile in Super Krillin got injured while fully aware of the attack.
@@turbotrup96 he was anything but aware of the attack he was looking at freezer powered down and with his back turned
@@danielgonzalez-vm5lj I meant Krillin, when he got shot by one of those thugs.
As for Goku - powering down so much while in front of Freeza is dumb writing regardless. I'm also pretty sure his body should still be pretty tough regardless, because back in original DB he's tanked bullets and axes to his head, before he even knew what Ki is.
TFS vegeta puts it perfectly
“Power levels are bullsh*t”
Love the vid bro.
And I agree that power creep if taken too seriously becomes poisonous.
It wasn't all bad at the end of the day because I had some genuine fun moments. The first time I saw Freezer, reaching a new form I was like "goddamn, how are they going to justify this? Lmao", it was really fun, I'll never forget it.
I also, like the fact that our GOAT decided to drop it to focus on other stuff which made the Android Saha so peak.
And damn was the power scaling a hot mess in the Buu saga. I loved the Buu saga, but good god was it inconsistent and overwhelming sometimes.
Also hard agree with the fact that us fans think into power levels and comparisons way harder than Toriyama himself ever did writing DB, just look at the toxic Buuhan Vs Kid Buu debate, lol.
Speaking of which, I personally love this move by Toriyama. How he decided to come on more reasonable power levels at the end of the arc with Kid Buu within the Fat Buu/Super Buu power range.
The fact that he decided to drop crazy over the top stuff like absorption and my GOAT Vegeto was probably the best way to write a meaningful and fulfilling ending.
Maybe it's me giving too much credit to Toriyama who didn't even think about it this deep, but the GOAT earned it.
How do you only have just a little over 1000 subscribers? Thats criminal! With quality content like this, you deserve over 100k, easy.
Thank you! I only just got 1,000 subs, a few days ago I had 489. Crazy world
People forgot, power levels were introduced specifically to tell us it doesn’t work.
Power level and scaling is tricky, but in the end it’s entirely up to the author and serves only the purpose of plot and story. It can be done well, it can be done poorly. Because it’s all fiction.
Yeah but the levels it reaches in dragon ball are kinda absurd which is the point I made
No they weren't? Every single time that power levels have shown up (in the real story, not extra guides) they were consistent, it seems you're conflating scouter use to power levels, what was shown not to work was over reliance on using scouters against enemies who can supress themselves, but these people still have real power levels that are consistent and work.
"Fiction means NOT REAL" - 🤬
It's funny how Buu saga Goku could only need kaioken×2 to beat tf out of Frieza.😅
If even that lol
Base*
Buu saga goku doesn't need kaioken for that
Wanna know something worse ?
Battle of gods goku pre ssj god ritual could kill perfect cell with just kaioken
Thank god you made this video... was tired of air heads and sheeps constantly blaming Super for everything, acting like Z doesn't stink it's self. The fact Krillin wasnt instantly flattened fighting a Cell Jr, who was beating on SS Vegeta
@@andraegregoire9515 never even thought about that
To be fair cell told the jrs to torture not kill Krillin surviving makes sense
Tien and yamcha helping a tired ssj goku against a cell jr and actually doing something....just one word
Lmao
@@danielgonzalez-vm5lj lol remember when a Cell Jr dived hard off a cliff and kneedropped Krillin in his back when he was laying down? How tf was his organs not crushed. But yea ur right, Cell did instruct them not to kill at first.
The Jr's are confirmed to be stronger than androids 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, Imperfect Cell, Frieza and Semi Perfect Cell, yet Yamcha and Tien actually landed a blow that actually knocked one of them down briefly. Could u imagine an attack like that working on any of the people I just named haha
Finally. I've been saying this for the longest time. It's ALWAYS been egregious.
Goku literally went from Ginyu level to kicking Freeza in the face within the first 30 seconds of meeting him after 1 zenkai boost and that's arguably not even the worst example!
This video was incredibly well done. Lots of dragonball videos have the most lame scripts ever. Love this one man, definitely hoping for more of this
Ah thank you so much! Hopefully I don’t disappoint
9:17 ok the thing about the final flash is that if cell didn’t dodge it would 100 percent kill him and this is stated by Akira Toriyama himself
toriyama's never said that lmao that's a misconception
@@Eonity who will? Headcanons vs actual feats
I've always enjoyed the massive crazy power jumps.
I’m not knocking it if it’s your style, but you must admit it’s slightly absurd when you look at it, even if it is cool 😅
@@Eonity It may be crazy but I like it. As you said it's my style. Crazy can be fun.
meathead ass show Toriyama does not even know baic physics
I will say this about the power levels. It makes me not care about anyone who isn’t one of the strongest. When they sideline Goku so that the other guys can have an arc I just think it’s dumb, because if Goku was there he would ‘no diff’ as you say, them instantly. And that just feels dumb that they are making me sit through this arc of characters I don’t care about. Iwould care, if they weren’t weak. So in that sense it’s not the power creep that gets me, its the fact that at first Goku is the only one who matters and then at least vegeta and trunks get powerful, and presumably gohan will matter too (I’m only 130 episodes deep right now).
To be honest I started watching this show after finishing Dragonball, because I wanted to see what the fuss was about its iconic in the fitness community because all the millennials grew up watching it and getting inspired to train themselves. As such, I don’t even really care about the story. I see why us fitness guys like the show, and I don’t even have the nostalgia factor since I never watched it as a kid.
@@CarlYota Even without power levels based on feats and dialogue, one can discern who the strongest characters are.
cant believe this discussion is still ongoing xD i remember having these conversations with my friends in the 90's xD
haha yeah i used to talk about this with my brothers
giving you the thumb up as a toriyama fan, i loved the ending conclusion, i agree whole heartedly
Krillin is apparently multiversal in Super Heroes and the ToP just by existing with no training. The scaling is goofy.
Yeah super gave characters power boost whenever they felt like it without any reasoning at times
Krillin is blatantly nowhere close to being multiversal lmao
@@maxdrags3115 Apparently the fact he could even hold his own against Goku and Gohan and damage Cell Max makes him that strong. I don't agree, but a wide amount of people do.
Fans power scale. I promise y'all Writers, artist, and creators don't give a FUCK about Power scaling.
Only fans do. Hell even the whole idea of power level was so that the enemy would underestimate their opponents and rely too much on numbers.
It wasn't numbers that beat their enemies, it was wit, cunning, and tenacity.
as someone who's writing, i care to a degree. i know that certain characters are stronger than others, and that's whats important. not HOW MUCH stronger, just a general idea. dbz follows that for the most part, and then dbs kinda fucks it up. but getting to absurd numbers can take the watcher/reader out of the story and be like "wait what?" which is my point here
That's not true. You're confusing battleboarding with power scaling. Why do so many people keep saying this in battle shouen fandoms? It's so annoying.
Power levels do matter in Dragon Ball, even after namek saga.
Power scaling is making sense of who’s stronger than who based on relative feats and statements
No, it was definitely numbers. Goku didn't beat Nappa because he underestimated his power level. He broke his back because his power level was 16000 with Kaioken and the only difference knowing Goku's accurate power level would be is Nappa would die as even more of a coward, Nappa never had an iota of a percentage of a chance of winning that fight, even if Goku underestimated him. The only times where "wit, cunning and tenacity" matter in Dragon Ball are when the two power levels are close enough, and thinking otherwise is just proving you don't understand the story.
Nothing did any damage to the series. The opposite, that's the reason why people like the series in the first place.
It was mostly hyperbole, but I personally don’t mind it in DBZ. It does get quite absurd, though
nostalgia and idolizing
I love the transition into the Freeza Saga. Using original lines recorded by Chris Ayres was the icing on an especially yummy cake. Rest in love, Chris. Your performance as Freeza will live on, but your real legacy will be your incredible kindness to everyone you knew.
I wanted to put a rest in peace somewhere in the video, but it didn't really match the tone. I appreciate you liking it, as it was a part of the video I rewatched over and over to make sure it would perfectly encapsulate how great he was as Freeza. Wanted to make it special for that reason and also since Freeza was the start of the insanely large power jumps haha
@Eonity , as a fellow Freeza lover (props to you for spelling it with two E's), I can safely say that you paid that man his due. Congrats on a great video!
Freeza aint no coward. He didnt give up fighting until the end. Never once tried to run away.
@@Toastaku my goat
@Eonity the greatest villain in fiction