Hi Mike I do not run those motors, but will check if I can. 21.5T and 25.5T run very hot, as they have a lot of winding resistance. If you are using a 2S Lipo, then you will have to make sure the motor does not overheat. So try 6 amps at first, and see how it sounds, and where the timing is set on the endbell. Generally the amp draw will increase rapidly after the sweet spot, so even a few extra degrees of timing will put the amp draw up quickly. All the best Nick
+Nick Adams Thank you very much Nick. You're doing some great work here, I really appreciate what you're doing. The rolling dyno is just awesome...throwback stuff right there :)
Can you make a video showing us how to do this with a common multimeter only??? That would be cool considering 99% of us don’t own a motor analyzer. Thank you for all that you do brotha🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
+Nick Adams Thankyou. I did try to find out but when I did connect my multimeter on A setting in line with esc I got cogging every time but no cogging without multimeter, so thought I'd ask you instead, 👍
+dooronron69 Probably the connecting leads dropping voltage. Try and use heavy connecting wires to the multimeter, and keep them short. If you can make up some with the same wire you use in your car.
Amazing, thank you so much for this. I know this is probably a question most people wouldn't know this because they are odd turns for the rest of the world, but do you happen to know the amp values for 21.5 and 25.5?
+pSiLoKaTaLiSt Hi The meter goes in the positive wire to the battery. (In line) So feed the speed control positve wire into the meter, then take a wire from the other terminal on the meter to the battery positive. The negative wire from the speed control goes directly to the battery as normal.
Hi Nick, thanks for all this great videos. They are very helpfull. Just one question, You said in this video that you can use the analyzer on the car without disconnecting the ESC. Doesn't it harm the ESC ? It's clear that the sensor cable has to be disconnected anyway.
Thank you so much, a very helpful video. If I want to set my timing on the cheap, do you think I could do it simply with an ammeter in line with the battery and set amps that way? I know the reading will be a little higher since there will some current draw from receiver BEC. On a different note, my wife says your voice reminds her of the narrator at the beginning of The Snowman when he says he remembers that year, it brought most snows ever!
Hi, Some questions to Nick , i am using a brushless motor checker it can read Current (amps), Volts, RPMs and KVs, no Timming.... 1. What Current do you recommend for a 25.5T for better perfomance to be use in Formula 1 class? 2. What Current do you recommend for a 21.5T for better perfomance to be use in touring blinky class? 3. What Current do you recommend for a 17.5T for better perfomance to use in touring blinky class?
Hi Nick Thanks for the great videos. I have the same motor analyzer and have set 2 motors to 6 amp draw but when in the car they are pulling just over 7 amps. I have tested the analyzer with an ammeter whilst using a variable bench power supply so I know its accurate. Which would you go with? The figure on the analyzer or the figure from the ammeter when in the car?
Have you tried using the volt ohm meter between the battery and a esc to test amp draw free spinning your motor and compare it to your analyzer. I'm curious if the readings are close. Reason why I'm asking is I have a maclan mrr team v2 17.5 and factory timing is 38deg which was 2.5 amps I upped it to 45 and was only around 3.5 amps. I'm about 47-48 on the motor casing now and its you to 5.5 amps but there scale only goes up to 50 degs. So I wasnt sure if this is normal.
Hi. Some multimeters do not give comparable results. make sure the connecting leads are heavy duty , like on the ESC. 5.5amps at 47degree is about right. The amps start to increase rapidly after a certain advance. In your case 47 degree seems that point. At 50 degree it will probably jump a lot more. All the best Nick
Without a motor tester, can i still do this test using 1s through esc using full throttle on transmitter? If so how will readings differ with the lower voltage
Nick Adams can only get upto 1.8 using trackstar , ive modified the timing ring to allow further rotation but i can only go as high as 2.5 after that the motor slows dramatically.
Hi Matt What wind is the motor? Is it a 21.5T. They cannot reach a high amps, due to the winding resistance. In this case, turn the timing to reach maximum revs, then turn back a fraction.
Hi James Not sure what you're getting at, but if you apply a load that prevents the motor reaching it's maximum revs, then the motor will be overtimed and will draw a heavy current and be inefficient. A bit like driving a real loaded car up a hill in 4th gear, as it picks up speed it will suddenly take off as it enters the efficient sweet spot for the gear. An electric motor in a model car operating with a lot of advance timing will need to be run at the higher speeds to be efficient, although the torque is very high at lower revs, so will still accelerate. All the best nick
Hello Nick. Was wondering what your thoughts are regarding the accuracy of the amperage reading. Which do you think is more reliable? The multimeter or the motor checker? Also, is the very first red lead plugged into you meter the lead from the motor checker itself? It seems to me the first red lead in the meter if from the motor checker, and the second red lead is the charger lead you mentioned connected to the battery. And the black lead from the battery is from the motor checker. Am I correct? Thanks again from across the pond.
Hi If you have the motor checker, tha shows amps, then you will not need the meter as well. The meter is for those who do not have the tester. When connecting the meter, it should read with the leads either way, as the display will show plus or minus amps. All the best nick
Perfect. Thanks for your help Nick. Very informative videos. I look forward to more. And thanks for putting up with all my questions. I'm a bit anal when it comes to my RC cars and equipment. I like to do thinks right.
hi again, sorry i more thought. does this test with 6amps apply to non short stack motors ??? what current would you use to test short stack motors ? thanks.
Hi, so you can use the motor tester in the car without disconnecting the cables from the speedcontroler? Just connect A B C and the sensor with the tester? BR
Hi Nick. Was wondering about the "sweet spot" and gearing. I was able to get my 17.5 motor up to 5.2 amps which I'm happy with but I'm concerened about too much heat. Before I raised my timing my buggy would come off the track at 160 degrees F at 32/69 gearing. Should I reduce the pinion gear? Doesn't the lower tooth count defeat the purpose? Or does the extra timing pick up the slack?
Hi Buggies tend to run motors hot, as there is little cooling air flow. Try and use a fan to cool motor. The motor should not run hotter than say 79 degree C. Measured on case as soon as the car has stopped. It is all about best performance. The lower gear will give more acceleration, is that what you want? The extra timing will add the top speed.
+Nick Adams Based on the new layout of my track more acceleration seems most desirable. I haven't had the opportunity to to test it yet, that will come tomorrow, so a bit of experimentation will be needed. But the d4 1s has a lot of torque it seems.
Hi Nick, how did you work out that 6 amps is the optimum amp draw? because one bloke at my race club said the motor shouldn't draw over 5 amps but never new why. I'm just curious but have not been able to find an answer. cheers mate
+Steve Vakalis Hi Steve All the advice applies to the Blinky (Locked speedo zero boost timing). I checked a number of motors that racers had got to perform very well. 6 amps was a typical reading. Higher currents , say 8 amps made motors hotter, with very little performance gain. Lower currents dropped the performance and top speed, which is not recovered by the gearing. Also when setting the timing, after 6 amps, only a small timing increase causes the amps to jump, suggesting that is the best point for performance against efficiency. However , I give this information so that any racer can get a very good performance from their motor straight away, without being in the dark. Experienced and more serious racers can then adjust their motor up (or down) according to their own ideas, and or the size of track and type of racing. (ie very small track, or very long and fast) and whether the temperature of the motor is worth the risk of a small gain. Lower amp draw will be nice and safe and keep motor cooler and may benifit small tracks with lots of accidents. Lower amp draw will sacrifice top speed, but may not be a concern on smaller tracks. Hope that helps. Nick
Thanks for the great videos, Nick! I subscribed! The info above regarding how people settled at 6 amps is a critical piece of info that you may want to include in the notes section of your video. I was wondering myself how did everyone come to about 6 amps vs. 5 or 4, etc. Glad to see that there is a good factual reason as to why.
Hi The 21.5T motors are inefficient and get hot with the resistance loss in the windings. I suggest you start at 4 amps and see how hot it is after the race. If still below 70deg C on thcase, then try 5amps. until it gets too hot.
Hey Nick, just wanted to say thanks for these great videos. I was wondering your thoughts on Motiv and their view that their 17.5T MC2 should not be set to 6amps?
Hi Matthew I have not seen that view from Motiv. Heat is the main problem with motors running as hard as they can. So always use a high performance cooling fan, and check motor temperature does not go past the 70 -80 degree C at the end of the race.
Hi Dimitri The Multimeter needs to be set to 10amps DC range. Then insert it in the positive power lead, so that the wire goes from the tester and in one socket and out the other to the battery positive. The battery negative lead connects directly to the tester, like normal. Hope that helps nick
Hi Leigh . Track testing shows that setting most winds from 4.5T up to 17.5T perform very well, in Blinky mode, when set about 6 to 7 amps. Your 8.5T motor will be good. On larger fast tracks you can increase the amps 7up to about 8 amps. But alwaqys check motor temperature after a run, and no higher than about 76deg C.
Hi I have been asked this about 21.5T motors. See some answers below. The general answer is that it depends very much on the heat generated during the race. your motor should not exceeds 79degC at end of race. You will probably have to set the free running amps about 4.5A.
21.5T run very hot, as they have a lot of winding resistance. If you are using a 2S Lipo, then you will have to make sure the motor does not overheat. So try 4 amps at first, and see how it sounds, and where the timing is set on the endbell. Check the temperature during a run. Use a high power cooling fan. The motor temperature should not exceed 80degreeC. Generally the amp draw will increase rapidly after the sweet spot, so even a few extra degrees of timing will put the amp draw up quickly.
hi Nick, thanks for this, great job!! i was wondering if you had a chance to test any 21.5 motors ??? i am using a 2s. since they run very hot would you suggest i optimize/test with 5 amps or 5.5 amps ? also when i gear should i gear for 140 degrees or 160 degree motor temp when running ?
Hi Yes, the 21.5T motors run hot, since they have high resistance windings. You will need to start at a lower amps, say 5 amps, and check the temperature. Temperatures above 70deg C after a run, will slow the motor, and any higher than 80deg C will probably damage the windings. Adjust the gearing to suit smaller tracks. Always use a motor cooling fan, if you can fit one.
Thanks. So I dont have a motor analyzer. Ill use my esc and radio but question about the radio. so full throttle with end point of 100. my radio has the option to go up to 150% so should i use 100% or 150% as my throttle endpoint ? thanks.
Hi If you have set the radio to the speed control , then it will be full speed when trigger pulled to max, and a LED normally comes on full on the speed control. (Radio set at 100%) The extra 50% on the transmitter is only used if you cannot get the LED to light, by nudging it up a few %. On modern radios and speed controls this is not normally needed. So just leave at 100%. Also if you put it up, then full speed is reached for less trigger (stick) movement. This could be useful if you just wanted instant max speed without much intermediate throttle control. Note that some speed controls will go out of calibration if you increase to 150%, so do it in stages.
I realise this is old... AND I've got a really stupid Question!! I'm coming back to the Hobby, after a an almost 20 year hiatus. WHAT is "Blinky Mode"? 😱 What is Blinky??? Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks! I appreciate it. It's been a VERY long time since I've raced in Stock Class..... And it was all Brushed back then! We got good at "tweaking" the Endbells slightly and skewing the Armature!! 😱😱 From all I've heard, "Stock" doesn't sound very Stock anymore.
@@Powerpickle68 - It really sounds like it's overdue time to either reinvent or redefine "Stock" Class. It's been considered since the early 90's, to do "Box Stock Handout" of Vehicles, for a REAL Driver's Race!
Hi. A difficult one to answer, as there are so many variables. But i would use 40 degrees and 20 degrees of boost for a longer track. Others may prefer 30 degrees and max out the ESC boost.
Nick, thank you for the very informative videos. Really appreciate your fine efforts. I just received a motor tester and checked two of my 17.5 blinky motors while they were in my B6D's. With the pinions disengaged from the spur gears, and also a clamp on DC amp meter attached to the positive wire from the lipo to the motor tester, both the tester and clamp on meter showed the same amp readings at full spin. However, when I disconnected and removed the motor tester and just used the clamp on meter on the positive wires from the lipo to the ESC, at full spin, clamp on meter showed a gain of 1.00 + amps over what motor tester showed. I repeated the tests several times to include changing sensor cables with no change. With just the clamp on meter, both motors seems to rev higher and pulled an additional amp. If you have time, can you provide your input? Thanks!
Hi What motor tester do you have? The motor tester is not putting out full power. If the motor tester has a built in speed control it looks like it doesn't reach full on power. Also make sure you have good (short) connecting wires and contacts, as they can drop voltage(and current).
Thank you for the quick response. I purchased a Trackstar Motor Analyzer from HobbyKing. It looks identical to G Force, SkyRC , etc., analyzers. Also, much to my surprise, I tested three 17.5 motors (one is new and still in the box) and all motor sensor boards only had a one degree variation in phase timing. Hmm :-) BTW, all motors are Trackstar ROAR approved units and are very competitive on a shorter indoor clay track.
I've been discussing this video at my local track and the most common comment is about running a motor full with no pinion and having the motor explode internally. Does that happen and are you worried about any damage caused to your motors? I tried this method with a multimeter. Certified D4, 1s 17.5 with 48 timing on the can and the amp draw was only 1.8. I guess I can bump up the timing, but I'm worried about continually testing this way.
+ryan holcomb Hi Ryan Yes, rotors can explode, but it is not normal these days. Especially when you consider the revs of lower turn motors. I test at a lower voltage, about 7.6volts. Your motor should definately draw more than 1.8amps at 48degrees, so sometyhing must be wrong.
Hi Ian After a race the motor temperature should not be higher than 80degC Note that motors will get hotter when the ambient temp is higher, and on shorter tracks. Also fit the best motor cooling fan.
Hi Johnny Yes it can work for low turn motors, but with some experimentation. For instance: A racer had several 6.5T motors of different makes. One was the best on the track and others not as good. By measuring the good one, it was clear that the timing on the others was way out. (Amps too low or too high). By setting them to the good one, they all became competitive. However , with low turn motors, it also depends on any timing added by the speed control. But, if the no load amp draw is high, then that is lost power and is lost as heat in the motor. So, if you have extra electronic timing applied from the speed control, then 6 amps will give an efficient motor.
I mostly run hobby wing xr10 with 0 timing but all my motors do have timing but running blinky mode I do have a hobbywing I think v3 something with a famtom 17.5 and been running with 0 timing. Now the motor timing is set around 45 but on my esc when I program the part about timing I think there is 3 choices can you explain esc timing I think I understand the motor timing but lost on esc timing thanks for reading and your time
Hi. When running in Blinky mode, the ESC timing is fixed at zero and is not adjustable. That is why the motor timing is normally set high at 45 to 60 degrees. If you are in normal boosted class racing, the motor endbell is normally set about 30 degrees and then the ESC can be used to increase the timing up to a max of 64degrees, by adding say another 34degrees. Some ESC have boost and turbo settings which can be added together, but also set at various rpm points and ramp up times.
Hi Jeremy No, the 25.5 are inefficient and prone to overheat. so a lower off load amp draw of about 4 amps is a good starting point. Then check the temperature of the motor after a run, and adjust to keep below 70deg C.
Hi A number of racers have tuned successfully at 6 amps (2S Lipo), and the used with a 1S lipo. Some racers prefer less or more timing, so it is critical depending on your track , FDR, and temperature of motor after a run. It is still a good starting point that will get you running at a good speed.
+dooronron69 Hi Assuming you are using a 2S lipo (7.4volt) Most older motors have restricted endbell timing, so you cannot advance to 50 to 60 degrees. It is possible to file away the end stops on some motors so you can add more advance.
+Nick Adams i am using 2s battery and they are new motors but cheap trackstar ones from hobbyking and have max 33 degree timing. my thunder power on full 50 degree draws 7.5A so gunna be turning that down to 6A and use that one. 👍
+dooronron69 Unless you haven't calibrated your radio correctly, the other option is to get a motor with higher timing. My motor goes to 40 and it basically doubles the amp draw in the last 2 degrees. Before that I was getting around 3 amps.
+Robert T it's all sorted now Thankyou, There isn't any radio gear involved, just a battery, multimeter, analyzer and motor. The timing on my motors must have been restricted, When I tried the top end motors they all had higher timing and higher amp draw,
Nick. Im new to rc racing. Thank you for the videos. I am going to setup my revtec 24k 17.5 for offroad blinky based on this video. Could you help me learn the prime timing profile (or however you would call it) for my 4x4 sct? Im running a tekin pro4 4600kv with a tekin rx8 gen 2.
+MerleSauvola Hi The motors can overheat in an offroad. This setting of the motor is for maximum performance for racing. In your 4x4 the gearing may cause overheating, so run it for a few minutes and feel the motor. If cold, then adjust gearing, faster. If too hot to touch reduce gearing or reduce endbell timing down by 10 degrees . Run and check motor temperature, until it runs just hot after 5 minutes. Race on. Nick
Hi Joker. Racing results show that the X factor is the faster motor. Most of the new motors are performing at a high level, and the difference between them is getting less. So they are all are capable of winning.
Hi Nick great video. It looks as if perhaps you set the polarity on the multimeter incorrectly. Your multimeter appears to be reading a negative current flow. I couldn't quite be certain but it looks like you have the com(negative terminal) on your multimeter going to the positive terminal on your battery which in fact is reverse polarity. You should have the positive terminal on the multimeter connected to the positive terminal of the battery.
Hi Cody The amp draw off load is lost power and will result in heat. Low turn motors are normally very powerful and do not need a lot of advance timing. Also timing can be applied by the speed control as Turbo boost etc. Therefore, set the amp draw at 6 or less depending on how the motor is used. For instance, if you have a speed control with boost, then you can start at say 10 degrees on the end bell, which will give a wide torque band and linear speed acceleration. Apply speed control boost and gear the motor for top speed. Race on. Nick
Hi I do have a Dyno that accelerates a heavy flywheel and the results can be analysed on the computer. It does take longer to set up and analyse the results. A constant load dyno would be useful, but the one I have was for brushed motors and cannot cope with modern high power brushless. There are a few coming on the market now, but are expensive. I have considered making one.
Right. I have a turbo dyno I use. Its great. I have it set to a constant volt and it will do 6 pulls each at a different level of torque resistance. From that i measure RPM, Watt, Efficiency and amp draw.
Can anyone tell me that what's the purpose of the ammeter connecting to the motor analizer? Why do you need to see the level of amp via ammeter even though you can check that in your motor analyzer?
Thanks for the reply. I have one more question. If you set up your end-bell at 6.0 amp, but the motor analyzer's timing is a little bit off (maybe around 4~5 degrees), would you still follow 6.0amp or the motor analyzer's setting? If they are different, then what would you do?? Thanks.
+Bart Grider Hi Bart The sweet spot refers to motors run with "Blinky" speed controls: ie. With no advance timing (Turbo) added by the speed control. Therefore the timing on the motor endbell is advanced to get maximum performance. Low turn motors, such as a 7.5T motor normally are powerful enough at a low timing, as supplied. Also most speed controls can add electronic (Turbo boost) timing to give a lot of extra performance from the motor. So, it is not necessary to find an optimum maximum timing on these low turn motors. However, it can still be useful to check the offload current draw, since a high current, say over 10 amps, will cause the motor to heat up. NOTE: Low turn motors can rev very high with no load, and the rotors can explode. Therefore I do not recommend it. Overheating of motors should be avoided, so always check it, after a run, and if too hot to touch, fit a good motor cooling fan, and/or back off the timing on the speed control, or fit a smaller pinion etc. Hope that helps Nick
dick I'm looking for a lcr-meter that I can read the windings on my RC motor for resistance without spending a lot of money just for home use what settings would I use to get a good reading thank you
@@rcmits Hi. The KV remains constant no matter the input voltage variation. So the input voltage source is not that important , as long as it can supply the amps. That is why a 2S lipo is best.
Just want to say thank you to Nick's family for keeping his videos up and running
Nick i have to say i learn a lot watching your videos! Your awesome!
Easy to understand explanation. Well done mate!
Hi Mike
I do not run those motors, but will check if I can.
21.5T and 25.5T run very hot, as they have a lot of winding resistance.
If you are using a 2S Lipo, then you will have to make sure the motor does not overheat.
So try 6 amps at first, and see how it sounds, and where the timing is set on the endbell.
Generally the amp draw will increase rapidly after the sweet spot, so even a few extra degrees of timing will put the amp draw up quickly.
All the best
Nick
+Nick Adams Thank you very much Nick. You're doing some great work here, I really appreciate what you're doing. The rolling dyno is just awesome...throwback stuff right there :)
Thanks for the reply Nick, very helpful info, much appreciated, cheers mate.
Can you make a video showing us how to do this with a common multimeter only??? That would be cool considering 99% of us don’t own a motor analyzer. Thank you for all that you do brotha🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
ruclips.net/video/xLbnYJ3gJ-0/видео.html From 10 minutes
great video Nick, thanks, now I know how to use my analyser
hi nick. if I set my 13.5 sweet spot at 6A using 2s on the analyser what A draw would I get in my car on 1s. thanks.
+dooronron69
Hi
With a 1S Lipo it will then draw about 4 to 4.5 amps, depending on Lipo voltage.
+Nick Adams Thankyou. I did try to find out but when I did connect my multimeter on A setting in line with esc I got cogging every time but no cogging without multimeter, so thought I'd ask you instead, 👍
+dooronron69
Probably the connecting leads dropping voltage.
Try and use heavy connecting wires to the multimeter, and keep them short.
If you can make up some with the same wire you use in your car.
+Nick Adams will try that. thankyou.
Amazing, thank you so much for this. I know this is probably a question most people wouldn't know this because they are odd turns for the rest of the world, but do you happen to know the amp values for 21.5 and 25.5?
when using multi meter you hook em up on the battery side. One on pos and one on neg or one in pos spot in bat and one on pos of esc.
+pSiLoKaTaLiSt
Hi
The meter goes in the positive wire to the battery. (In line)
So feed the speed control positve wire into the meter, then take a wire from the other terminal on the meter to the battery positive.
The negative wire from the speed control goes directly to the battery as normal.
Hi Nick, thanks for all this great videos. They are very helpfull. Just one question, You said in this video that you can use the analyzer on the car without disconnecting the ESC. Doesn't it harm the ESC ? It's clear that the sensor cable has to be disconnected anyway.
Hi Moon
You do not need to disconnect the speedo. You can switch it off, but it is not damaged even if you have left it on.
Nick, thanks a lot for the info. Makes it much easier to test motors which are directly soldered to the ESC
Thank you so much, a very helpful video. If I want to set my timing on the cheap, do you think I could do it simply with an ammeter in line with the battery and set amps that way? I know the reading will be a little higher since there will some current draw from receiver BEC. On a different note, my wife says your voice reminds her of the narrator at the beginning of The Snowman when he says he remembers that year, it brought most snows ever!
This is great! Most ESC's nowadays are programmable. Would you still do this procedure and then add more in the ESC?
can I do this while a motor is still connected to the esc on the ABC wires? but no power to esc and no pinion on the motor
Hi, Some questions to Nick , i am using a brushless motor checker it can read Current (amps), Volts, RPMs and KVs, no Timming....
1. What Current do you recommend for a 25.5T for better perfomance to be use in Formula 1 class?
2. What Current do you recommend for a 21.5T for better perfomance to be use in touring blinky class?
3. What Current do you recommend for a 17.5T for better perfomance to use in touring blinky class?
Hi Nick
Thanks for the great videos. I have the same motor analyzer and have set 2 motors to 6 amp draw but when in the car they are pulling just over 7 amps.
I have tested the analyzer with an ammeter whilst using a variable bench power supply so I know its accurate.
Which would you go with? The figure on the analyzer or the figure from the ammeter when in the car?
Hi Nick. I bought a multimeter and was told that the DCV setting is equal to 10 amps. is this accurate?
Hi
No. That is DC Volts.
It should have a DCA position and a socket marked 10Amps.
Have you tried using the volt ohm meter between the battery and a esc to test amp draw free spinning your motor and compare it to your analyzer. I'm curious if the readings are close. Reason why I'm asking is I have a maclan mrr team v2 17.5 and factory timing is 38deg which was 2.5 amps
I upped it to 45 and was only around 3.5 amps. I'm about 47-48 on the motor casing now and its you to 5.5 amps but there scale only goes up to 50 degs. So I wasnt sure if this is normal.
Hi. Some multimeters do not give comparable results. make sure the connecting leads are heavy duty , like on the ESC.
5.5amps at 47degree is about right. The amps start to increase rapidly after a certain advance. In your case 47 degree seems that point. At 50 degree it will probably jump a lot more. All the best Nick
Without a motor tester, can i still do this test using 1s through esc using full throttle on transmitter?
If so how will readings differ with the lower voltage
Hi Matthew. Yes you can set the motor with a 1S lipo.
The amps should be set about 4.5 amps.
Nick Adams can only get upto 1.8 using trackstar , ive modified the timing ring to allow further rotation but i can only go as high as 2.5 after that the motor slows dramatically.
Hi Matt
What wind is the motor? Is it a 21.5T. They cannot reach a high amps, due to the winding resistance. In this case, turn the timing to reach maximum revs, then turn back a fraction.
I will try that and I will get back to you and let you know how it worked out again thanks a lot
im wondering if the efficiency of the timing will change under load?
Hi James
Not sure what you're getting at, but if you apply a load that prevents the motor reaching it's maximum revs, then the motor will be overtimed and will draw a heavy current and be inefficient.
A bit like driving a real loaded car up a hill in 4th gear, as it picks up speed it will suddenly take off as it enters the efficient sweet spot for the gear.
An electric motor in a model car operating with a lot of advance timing will need to be run at the higher speeds to be efficient, although the torque is very high at lower revs, so will still accelerate.
All the best
nick
that makes sense thank you for explaining.
Hi can we use this analysis device for 3000W bldc motor that comes for electric vehicles
Hello Nick. Was wondering what your thoughts are regarding the accuracy of the amperage reading. Which do you think is more reliable? The multimeter or the motor checker? Also, is the very first red lead plugged into you meter the lead from the motor checker itself? It seems to me the first red lead in the meter if from the motor checker, and the second red lead is the charger lead you mentioned connected to the battery. And the black lead from the battery is from the motor checker. Am I correct? Thanks again from across the pond.
Hi
If you have the motor checker, tha shows amps, then you will not need the meter as well.
The meter is for those who do not have the tester.
When connecting the meter, it should read with the leads either way, as the display will show plus or minus amps.
All the best
nick
Perfect. Thanks for your help Nick. Very informative videos. I look forward to more. And thanks for putting up with all my questions. I'm a bit anal when it comes to my RC cars and equipment. I like to do thinks right.
Ho
No, that's good.
You are preparing to win.
hi again, sorry i more thought. does this test with 6amps apply to non short stack motors ??? what current would you use to test short stack motors ? thanks.
Hi
Yes, you can set the same with short, 1S,2S.
It will get you to a competitive setting, which you can fine tune depending on the type of circuit.
Hi, so you can use the motor tester in the car without disconnecting the cables from the speedcontroler? Just connect A B C and the sensor with the tester? BR
Hi Robert
Yes, to check timing you can do it with motor still driving the transmission.
But to test amps and KV, remove or unmesh the pinion.
Hi Nick. Was wondering about the "sweet spot" and gearing. I was able to get my 17.5 motor up to 5.2 amps which I'm happy with but I'm concerened about too much heat. Before I raised my timing my buggy would come off the track at 160 degrees F at 32/69 gearing. Should I reduce the pinion gear? Doesn't the lower tooth count defeat the purpose? Or does the extra timing pick up the slack?
Hi
Buggies tend to run motors hot, as there is little cooling air flow.
Try and use a fan to cool motor.
The motor should not run hotter than say 79 degree C. Measured on case as soon as the car has stopped.
It is all about best performance.
The lower gear will give more acceleration, is that what you want?
The extra timing will add the top speed.
+Nick Adams Based on the new layout of my track more acceleration seems most desirable. I haven't had the opportunity to to test it yet, that will come tomorrow, so a bit of experimentation will be needed. But the d4 1s has a lot of torque it seems.
Hi
The D4 and Revtech 24K use a strong magnet rotor and give good torque.
+Nick Adams That torque almost makes up for the substandard sensors.
Hi Nick,
how did you work out that 6 amps is the optimum amp draw? because one bloke at my race club said the motor shouldn't draw over 5 amps but never new why. I'm just curious but have not been able to find an answer.
cheers mate
+Steve Vakalis
Hi Steve
All the advice applies to the Blinky (Locked speedo zero boost timing).
I checked a number of motors that racers had got to perform very well.
6 amps was a typical reading.
Higher currents , say 8 amps made motors hotter, with very little performance gain.
Lower currents dropped the performance and top speed, which is not recovered by the gearing.
Also when setting the timing, after 6 amps, only a small timing increase causes the amps to jump, suggesting that is the best point for performance against efficiency.
However , I give this information so that any racer can get a very good performance from their motor straight away, without being in the dark.
Experienced and more serious racers can then adjust their motor up (or down) according to their own ideas, and or the size of track and type of racing. (ie very small track, or very long and fast) and whether the temperature of the motor is worth the risk of a small gain.
Lower amp draw will be nice and safe and keep motor cooler and may benifit small tracks with lots of accidents.
Lower amp draw will sacrifice top speed, but may not be a concern on smaller tracks.
Hope that helps.
Nick
Thanks for the great videos, Nick! I subscribed! The info above regarding how people settled at 6 amps is a critical piece of info that you may want to include in the notes section of your video. I was wondering myself how did everyone come to about 6 amps vs. 5 or 4, etc. Glad to see that there is a good factual reason as to why.
just wondering with 21.5 torque motors where would the sweet sport be ? 5amps ? 6amps ?
Hi
The 21.5T motors are inefficient and get hot with the resistance loss in the windings.
I suggest you start at 4 amps and see how hot it is after the race.
If still below 70deg C on thcase, then try 5amps. until it gets too hot.
Hey Nick, just wanted to say thanks for these great videos. I was wondering your thoughts on Motiv and their view that their 17.5T MC2 should not be set to 6amps?
Hi Matthew
I have not seen that view from Motiv.
Heat is the main problem with motors running as hard as they can.
So always use a high performance cooling fan, and check motor temperature does not go past the 70 -80 degree C at the end of the race.
What motor tester are you using
How did you hook up the multimeter to the battery & analyzer? I can't quite see how the connections were made
Hi Dimitri
The Multimeter needs to be set to 10amps DC range.
Then insert it in the positive power lead, so that the wire goes from the tester and in one socket and out the other to the battery positive.
The battery negative lead connects directly to the tester, like normal.
Hope that helps
nick
+Nick Adams I understand. just need to find a multimeter with the proper sized leads for battery a analyzer. My battery takes 4mm bullets
Hi
Most multimeters have 4mm sockets.
Use heavy duty connecting wire, if the multimeter ones are thin.
Hi Nick would this be the same for 8.5t motor in blinky mode. Tune to about 6 amps?
Hi Leigh . Track testing shows that setting most winds from 4.5T up to 17.5T perform very well, in Blinky mode, when set about 6 to 7 amps. Your 8.5T motor will be good. On larger fast tracks you can increase the amps 7up to about 8 amps. But alwaqys check motor temperature after a run, and no higher than about 76deg C.
Hi Nick,
do you have information for ratio and draw for Sting 21.5T motors for F1? which is a good starting point?
thanks a lot
Hi
I have been asked this about 21.5T motors.
See some answers below.
The general answer is that it depends very much on the heat generated during the race.
your motor should not exceeds 79degC at end of race.
You will probably have to set the free running amps about 4.5A.
Nick Adams what is the sweet spot with the 21.5 motors now that, that wind has been getting more popular with onroad racing
21.5T run very hot, as they have a lot of winding resistance.
If you are using a 2S Lipo, then you will have to make sure the motor
does not overheat.
So try 4 amps at first, and see how it sounds, and where the timing is
set on the endbell. Check the temperature during a run.
Use a high power cooling fan.
The motor temperature should not exceed 80degreeC.
Generally the amp draw will increase rapidly after the sweet spot, so
even a few extra degrees of timing will put the amp draw up quickly.
hi Nick, thanks for this, great job!! i was wondering if you had a chance to test any 21.5 motors ??? i am using a 2s. since they run very hot would you suggest i optimize/test with 5 amps or 5.5 amps ? also when i gear should i gear for 140 degrees or 160 degree motor temp when running ?
Hi
Yes, the 21.5T motors run hot, since they have high resistance windings.
You will need to start at a lower amps, say 5 amps, and check the temperature.
Temperatures above 70deg C after a run, will slow the motor, and any higher than 80deg C will probably damage the windings.
Adjust the gearing to suit smaller tracks.
Always use a motor cooling fan, if you can fit one.
Thanks. So I dont have a motor analyzer. Ill use my esc and radio but question about the radio. so full throttle with end point of 100. my radio has the option to go up to 150% so should i use 100% or 150% as my throttle endpoint ? thanks.
Hi
If you have set the radio to the speed control , then it will be full speed when trigger pulled to max, and a LED normally comes on full on the speed control. (Radio set at 100%)
The extra 50% on the transmitter is only used if you cannot get the LED to light, by nudging it up a few %.
On modern radios and speed controls this is not normally needed.
So just leave at 100%.
Also if you put it up, then full speed is reached for less trigger (stick) movement.
This could be useful if you just wanted instant max speed without much intermediate throttle control.
Note that some speed controls will go out of calibration if you increase to 150%, so do it in stages.
I realise this is old... AND I've got a really stupid Question!!
I'm coming back to the Hobby, after a an almost 20 year hiatus.
WHAT is "Blinky Mode"? 😱
What is Blinky???
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks! I appreciate it. It's been a VERY long time since I've raced in Stock Class.....
And it was all Brushed back then! We got good at "tweaking" the Endbells slightly and skewing the Armature!! 😱😱
From all I've heard, "Stock" doesn't sound very Stock anymore.
It isn't, just like back in your brushed motor days, there is a lot of cheating
@@Powerpickle68 - It really sounds like it's overdue time to either reinvent or redefine "Stock" Class.
It's been considered since the early 90's, to do "Box Stock Handout" of Vehicles, for a REAL Driver's Race!
What do you recommend to set the mechanical timing at if one intends to use a boosted/ turbo esc?.
Hi. A difficult one to answer, as there are so many variables. But i would use 40 degrees and 20 degrees of boost for a longer track. Others may prefer 30 degrees and max out the ESC boost.
Nick, thank you for the very informative videos. Really appreciate your fine efforts. I just received a motor tester and checked two of my 17.5 blinky motors while they were in my B6D's. With the pinions disengaged from the spur gears, and also a clamp on DC amp meter attached to the positive wire from the lipo to the motor tester, both the tester and clamp on meter showed the same amp readings at full spin. However, when I disconnected and removed the motor tester and just used the clamp on meter on the positive wires from the lipo to the ESC, at full spin, clamp on meter showed a gain of 1.00 + amps over what motor tester showed. I repeated the tests several times to include changing sensor cables with no change. With just the clamp on meter, both motors seems to rev higher and pulled an additional amp. If you have time, can you provide your input? Thanks!
Hi
What motor tester do you have?
The motor tester is not putting out full power.
If the motor tester has a built in speed control it looks like it doesn't reach full on power.
Also make sure you have good (short) connecting wires and contacts, as they can drop voltage(and current).
Thank you for the quick response. I purchased a Trackstar Motor Analyzer from HobbyKing. It looks identical to G Force, SkyRC , etc., analyzers. Also, much to my surprise, I tested three 17.5 motors (one is new and still in the box) and all motor sensor boards only had a one degree variation in phase timing. Hmm :-) BTW, all motors are Trackstar ROAR approved units and are very competitive on a shorter indoor clay track.
Hi
Well check some other motors and make sure the tester is working ok.
Maybe it looks the same on outside, but is a second rate on the inside.
I've been discussing this video at my local track and the most common comment is about running a motor full with no pinion and having the motor explode internally. Does that happen and are you worried about any damage caused to your motors?
I tried this method with a multimeter. Certified D4, 1s 17.5 with 48 timing on the can and the amp draw was only 1.8. I guess I can bump up the timing, but I'm worried about continually testing this way.
+ryan holcomb
Hi Ryan
Yes, rotors can explode, but it is not normal these days.
Especially when you consider the revs of lower turn motors.
I test at a lower voltage, about 7.6volts.
Your motor should definately draw more than 1.8amps at 48degrees, so sometyhing must be wrong.
Nice video. after I set for 6amp draw what temp should I be shooting for when gearing the car.
Hi Ian
After a race the motor temperature should not be higher than 80degC
Note that motors will get hotter when the ambient temp is higher, and on shorter tracks.
Also fit the best motor cooling fan.
hey Nick, I don't know if you answered this already but I was just wondering does this method work for modified Motors as well
Hi Johnny
Yes it can work for low turn motors, but with some experimentation.
For instance:
A racer had several 6.5T motors of different makes.
One was the best on the track and others not as good.
By measuring the good one, it was clear that the timing on the others was way out. (Amps too low or too high).
By setting them to the good one, they all became competitive.
However , with low turn motors, it also depends on any timing added by the speed control.
But, if the no load amp draw is high, then that is lost power and is lost as heat in the motor.
So, if you have extra electronic timing applied from the speed control, then 6 amps will give an efficient motor.
Nick Adams thank you I really appreciate it
I mostly run hobby wing xr10 with 0 timing but all my motors do have timing but running blinky mode I do have a hobbywing I think v3 something with a famtom 17.5 and been running with 0 timing. Now the motor timing is set around 45 but on my esc when I program the part about timing I think there is 3 choices can you explain esc timing I think I understand the motor timing but lost on esc timing thanks for reading and your time
Hi. When running in Blinky mode, the ESC timing is fixed at zero and is not adjustable. That is why the motor timing is normally set high at 45 to 60 degrees.
If you are in normal boosted class racing, the motor endbell is normally set about 30 degrees and then the ESC can be used to increase the timing up to a max of 64degrees, by adding say another 34degrees. Some ESC have boost and turbo settings which can be added together, but also set at various rpm points and ramp up times.
Is this still valid in late 2018 with the newer motors?
Hi Stone. Yes, still is valid and gives very good results with latest motors for 2019. Blinky mode racing.
I’ve got a new team edition Maclan 25.5 MRR. Is 6amp draw a good spot
Hi Jeremy
No, the 25.5 are inefficient and prone to overheat.
so a lower off load amp draw of about 4 amps is a good starting point.
Then check the temperature of the motor after a run, and adjust to keep below 70deg C.
Do you tune for 6 amps in a motor used for 17.5 1s (worldGTR or Pan car) ?
Hi
A number of racers have tuned successfully at 6 amps (2S Lipo), and the used with a 1S lipo.
Some racers prefer less or more timing, so it is critical depending on your track , FDR, and temperature of motor after a run.
It is still a good starting point that will get you running at a good speed.
Thanks nick!
even at full timing on 3 x 13.5 motors I've tested the maximum draw I get is 2A. is there a reason I can't get 6 amp draw.?
+dooronron69
Hi
Assuming you are using a 2S lipo (7.4volt)
Most older motors have restricted endbell timing, so you cannot advance to 50 to 60 degrees.
It is possible to file away the end stops on some motors so you can add more advance.
+Nick Adams i am using 2s battery and they are new motors but cheap trackstar ones from hobbyking and have max 33 degree timing. my thunder power on full 50 degree draws 7.5A so gunna be turning that down to 6A and use that one. 👍
+dooronron69 Unless you haven't calibrated your radio correctly, the other option is to get a motor with higher timing. My motor goes to 40 and it basically doubles the amp draw in the last 2 degrees. Before that I was getting around 3 amps.
+Robert T it's all sorted now Thankyou, There isn't any radio gear involved, just a battery, multimeter, analyzer and motor.
The timing on my motors must have been restricted,
When I tried the top end motors they all had higher timing and higher amp draw,
Nick. Im new to rc racing. Thank you for the videos. I am going to setup my revtec 24k 17.5 for offroad blinky based on this video. Could you help me learn the prime timing profile (or however you would call it) for my 4x4 sct? Im running a tekin pro4 4600kv with a tekin rx8 gen 2.
+MerleSauvola
Hi
The motors can overheat in an offroad.
This setting of the motor is for maximum performance for racing.
In your 4x4 the gearing may cause overheating, so run it for a few minutes and feel the motor.
If cold, then adjust gearing, faster.
If too hot to touch reduce gearing or reduce endbell timing down by 10 degrees .
Run and check motor temperature, until it runs just hot after 5 minutes.
Race on.
Nick
Can u compare reedy s plus 17.5 and rev tec X factor 17.5 to see which is faster motor. Thanks
Hi Joker. Racing results show that the X factor is the faster motor. Most of the new motors are performing at a high level, and the difference between them is getting less. So they are all are capable of winning.
Hi Nick great video. It looks as if perhaps you set the polarity on the multimeter incorrectly. Your multimeter appears to be reading a negative current flow. I couldn't quite be certain but it looks like you have the com(negative terminal) on your multimeter going to the positive terminal on your battery which in fact is reverse polarity. You should have the positive terminal on the multimeter connected to the positive terminal of the battery.
what should the amperage be for a 7.0 motor?
Hi Cody
The amp draw off load is lost power and will result in heat.
Low turn motors are normally very powerful and do not need a lot of advance timing.
Also timing can be applied by the speed control as Turbo boost etc.
Therefore, set the amp draw at 6 or less depending on how the motor is used.
For instance, if you have a speed control with boost, then you can start at say 10 degrees on the end bell, which will give a wide torque band and linear speed acceleration.
Apply speed control boost and gear the motor for top speed.
Race on.
Nick
Nick have you ever got to use a dyno like the TurboDyno that puts a load on the motor?
Hi
I do have a Dyno that accelerates a heavy flywheel and the results can be analysed on the computer.
It does take longer to set up and analyse the results.
A constant load dyno would be useful, but the one I have was for brushed motors and cannot cope with modern high power brushless.
There are a few coming on the market now, but are expensive.
I have considered making one.
Right. I have a turbo dyno I use. Its great. I have it set to a constant volt and it will do 6 pulls each at a different level of torque resistance. From that i measure RPM, Watt, Efficiency and amp draw.
Hi
Is that a TurboDyno you can buy, or made yourself?
They are TurboDyno from the brushed days converted for brushless motors. shoot me an email at dirt42fan@gmail.com I will send you some pics
Can anyone tell me that what's the purpose of the ammeter connecting to the motor analizer? Why do you need to see the level of amp via ammeter even though you can check that in your motor analyzer?
Hi
Just to show, you can set the motor up with the ammeter, if you do not have the analyzer.
Thanks for the reply. I have one more question. If you set up your end-bell at 6.0 amp, but the motor analyzer's timing is a little bit off (maybe around 4~5 degrees), would you still follow 6.0amp or the motor analyzer's setting? If they are different, then what would you do?? Thanks.
Great info here.. Do you happen to know the sweet spot draw for a 7.5 motor?
+Bart Grider
Hi Bart
The sweet spot refers to motors run with "Blinky" speed controls:
ie. With no advance timing (Turbo) added by the speed control.
Therefore the timing on the motor endbell is advanced to get maximum performance.
Low turn motors, such as a 7.5T motor normally are powerful enough at a low timing, as supplied. Also most speed controls can add electronic (Turbo boost) timing to give a lot of extra performance from the motor.
So, it is not necessary to find an optimum maximum timing on these low turn motors.
However, it can still be useful to check the offload current draw, since a high current, say over 10 amps, will cause the motor to heat up.
NOTE: Low turn motors can rev very high with no load, and the rotors can explode. Therefore I do not recommend it.
Overheating of motors should be avoided, so always check it, after a run, and if too hot to touch, fit a good motor cooling fan, and/or back off the timing on the speed control, or fit a smaller pinion etc.
Hope that helps
Nick
Thank you for the great explanation.
Good
200th like! 😊
thanks for clarifying
dick I'm looking for a lcr-meter that I can read the windings on my RC motor for resistance without spending a lot of money just for home use what settings would I use to get a good reading thank you
I found nothing you said here useful... I didn't learn anything here that I didn't already know
Good for you knob head
I didn't find anything that "you" said here useful. Since you can't add anything beneficial, then why comment at all.
how much volts do you test at.. to get accurate readins.. 7.6? ~ 8.0v?
Hi Mits. Using this method, use a fully charged lipo. So 8volt is good.
@@nickadams5411 thanks. ive been thinking of using a step-down voltage device that lets me run constant 8v to the tester from a 12v power supply...
@@rcmits Hi. The KV remains constant no matter the input voltage variation. So the input voltage source is not that important , as long as it can supply the amps. That is why a 2S lipo is best.
@@nickadams5411 well... I learn something new everyday... Tha KS for the info