HIDDEN TRAITOR REVEALED: Deltarune theory
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- Опубликовано: 23 июл 2024
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ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS:
For those confused why I spend the first 2 minutes of this video talking about this pattern with words, it's because Ralsei's devil symbolism has strong roots in why people suspect him of betraying us, that's why I wanted to highlight that we can't trust the word 'devil' to immediately mean bad, especially when Ralsei says he will be a GOOD devil. Sure with this I am assuming good still means good, but if we question everything we can't make any theories.
In the end I am definitely gunning for Noelle to be the villain, I did say 'main villain' in the first seconds of the video, that might be a bit much. Maybe a villain for a chapter. Maybe two? I'm not sure if Noelle would really be 'the big bad' alone. I would assume there would be someone pulling her strings either directly or indirectly. Also, this is my second theory video and I haven't used Gaster as a point yet! Let's see how long Gaster can stay out of my theories.
Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
0:20 Hidden Pattern
1:44 We may have assumed wrong
2:37 Traitor spotted?
4:10 Why betray us?
6:22 There is more! 
Игры
It's ironic that Susie's name literally has the word 'sus' in it yet she is the most honest and normal out of all 4 heroes.
There was nothing compelling you to say this.
@@mortimeir_9540 why did you say that?
Every name in our party is an anagram for some weird shit. Risk. Issue. Asriel.
god freakin damn it if among us wasn't a thing there's absolutely no way people would point something like this out
@@j09k06 Ralsie came before Asriel so technically Asriel is an anagram for Ralsie.
"There is an impostor among us"
"I believe I'm not the only traitor."
@@chiefblox4000 XD
can't really be a tratior if she was never going along with our adventure to begin with
The concept art I showed in the video is called The Fun Gang. Toby seems to consider Noelle a main character, and her angel wings are on the deltarune symbol. I would say she is plenty involved with us.
@@ARoyalRubyI understand that Noelle being the angel shows that she’s the antagonist. But I also believe Ralsei is the true villain pulling the strings to find a way to beat the angel Noelle before she knows her true power which she will use to freeze and kill all the dark world. Both sides are evil I believe but Ralsei dosent know that Noelle is the angel but Kris does.
It's especially interesting since there's evidence to suggest that bringing Rudy into a dark world COULD help him. Berdly's arm is hurt in the light world if that happens in the dark world, and of course in snowgrave he looks dead. So what if Rudy gets healed with a spell?
In my head Rudy would feel better in the Dark World but once he returns he would be back to normal, but in the end that's just an assumption isn't it? You make a great point, if Berdly can keep injuries from the Dark World it really isn't far fetched that someone could feel better after being healed in the Dark World. The only evidence against this is Susie saying that everything she eats in the Dark World doesn't 'really' fill her. In the end we can't be sure as of now.
he dies in undertale so his condition is incurable by magic
Things have been different in both games. Determination is different, your level increases every time you seal a fountain. His condition could be different too.
Healing Magic seemingly cannot heal illnesses in UT (Chara's whole death) and I wouldn't be surprised if that was also the case in DR.
The two worlds have far less differences than people think they do. DT doesn't have to be different either. Monsters are still capable of having it naturally in UT like we see with Undyne, they just can't have it in the same concentrations humans do.
I think it could actually be a good snapping point for Noelle, she tries to heal him in a dark world, it doesn't work, and she starts the roaring in an attempt to gain more power.
funny how we lend Noelle such a power 2:50
"
Also, if Noelle's the Angel and Gaster is the Game Master, who's the "Roaring Knight"
One thing I have a strong gut feeling for (but hardly evidence to back it up) is that the knight isn't evil and that there is a realistic chance they don't fully understand what they are doing.
King and Queen both were unaware of The Roaring and it's deeper meaning, the same could count for them too.
I also think The Knight is a lightner, it might be possible for darkners to create dark fountains in the light world, King even said he wanted to spread darkness throughout the world, but we don't know for sure if that's possible. In the end it seems a lot easier for The Knight to be a lightner. Especially if you assume that The Knight closed the closet door on Susie and Kris.
So...Maybe Papyrus?
@@ARoyalRuby I think it's either Major Holiday, Gerson's relative (Ms Boom) or Gerson's son (Father Alvin). Also, good job for pointing out that the door was closed on us. If Kris were the Knight that made the first 2 fountains, why were they scared of the closet, and why were they inside when it was locked by someone else?
From those three I suspect the mayor the most, definitely lacking some strong evidence though, but it is just chapter 2. Chapter 3 and 4 can turn allll of that on it's head.
AND YES to me Kris has their own plan, is it possible someone that isn't the knight locked the closet? I guess...? But then what on earth is their deal? They are an outsider that KNOWS about these dark worlds and just trolls Kris and Susie...? It just doesn't really add up with what we have so far. The safest assumption is that The Knight locked them in which would cross a few suspects out.
@@FranciTheGamerKris could easily be acting scared.
My headcannon for now is that we as the individual who pulls strings on kris is the main villain, with kris doing whatever it takes to take back control, like opening a dark fountain inside their house, and / or that the gang will turn on them for doing so. The game makes subtle yet important distinctions between Kris and us and makes it clear that it's an abusive relationship kris wants out of
Something big I've noticed is that Susie and Ralsei both get game over dialogue, but Noelle doesn't.
If the game over dialogue is foreshadowing/a flashback (memory of a previous run before the player arrived?) like it is in Undertale, this could have some heavy implications. Noelle either not being present for Kris's failure or even being the one opposed to the main three.
Another devil connection with Ralsei is that he is "The Price of the Dark" which is a common nickname of satan/the devil.
I watched this start to finish and i find this really compelling, it does make sense snd this video is well put together. Great job man!
I wonder how Noelle's betrayal will play out in each route.
In the pacifist route Noelle is more easily manipulated but doesn't want to hurt people (and is relatively less powerful), while the weird route's Noelle actually grows more willful -- as shown by the way she plays Dragon Blazers with her father; so if she's going to betray us, she'll do it on her own terms.
I agree with the direction you are going with, in the weird route Noelle also directly asks Susie if she has a tail instead of trying to secretly look if she has one. Noelle has a 'boldness' stat that goes up in the weird route, so that could reflect her betrayal. Her pacifist betray could be more "I'm sorry Kris I...I know you don't think this is right but Kris, I wouldn't hurt anyone. This is for the best, I hope you can forgive me when you see that Kris."
And her weird route more like "You just have to wait Kris, I wouldn't do this to destroy the world, if anything I'm making it better."
Or what if the Weird Route is the only one where Noelle _doesn't_ rebel?
four?/berdly: well frick you too
noelle can only cast snowgrave in the snowgrave route, but then noelle would not betray kris unless kris does something incredibly more fucked up than even what they've already done.
She was never with Kris's plan lol
@@tiqosc1809she's in a trance.
What if Rudy asks Kris to pull the plug because he can't take it anymore or something like that
this is so smart and novel! definitely gonna change the way i look at the game from now on.
It would be so cool if Noelle got manipulated so many times by us during the game that by the end she becomes genuinely evil or possessed by something
You are always so good with these theories...
Lore of HIDDEN TRAITOR REVEALED: Deltarune theory momentum 100
I feel like we will at some point need to choose between noelle and ralsei.
Now I get it! I realized something! Remember that moment when Noelle checks if Susie has a tail? Well, I always thought it was just funny, but it's more than that! Because Noelle does this not just because she is curious, but because she is trying to confirm if that "dream" that she was just in was real or not. Because no matter what crazy things she saw in a dark world, she can just consider it being her imagination. But learing something about reality, that you didnt know before from your dream? That would prove it to be real. What I'm getting at is that, this moment is a foreshadowing of Noelle becoming more involved into the dark world stuff. And it's disguised as just haha funny moment, but it's serious actually. ALSO! Do you remember that in snowgrave route we dont have this little moment were Noelle checks for Susie's tail? Well, that's because this moment of reflection on reality, is done differently, more creepy: It's done by the cutscene in the hospital, where Noelle finds ot Kris has her watch. So both runs end on the same note: Noelle isnt sure if what she saw was dream, or maybe it was real? Just like whatever you do in chapter 1, it leaves some key points intacted, so chapter 2 cant be much more different. No matter which path you choose, you are still gonna end up going the same direction. Your choices dont matter.
Oooohhh, I think you have a point that the tail thing is played as a gag while actually having a deeper meaning.
Chapter 2 started with Toriel revealing that Kris ate some pie, but the TV is plugged in afterwards, Kris most likely was just executing their plan while taking a slice of pie on the way out. If this is true the game already did the "play serious moment off as gag"
Small correction, the tail thing always happens, but it does change depending on your route. In the regular route Noelle tries to do this behind Susie's back. In snowgrave she bluntly asks in Susie's face if she has a tail or not.
Oh really? Well, I thought I remembered her specifically NOT doing anything about the tail. My bad
@@wscamel226 i think some choises could matter but most not like birdle death it will not matter in chapter 3 but what about chapter 4 everyone will learn about birdle death and there a lot of tension in the city the darks worlds could simboliaze escapism so nothing happens in the dark wolrds with birdle death but birdles death causes tension and fear since literaly somebody died with almost no evdiance of the killer
I'd like to share my thoughts on this. I might write a lot, so feel free to skip or ignore this entirely, I'm just rambling.
I feel most strongly that the assumption that the Angels Heaven and the Roaring are separate. If not entirely separate, at least distinct. My reason for believing this is the way in which the Legend is formatted
"Only they can seal the fountains
And banish the ANGEL'S HEAVEN"
This pretty heavily implies that the fountains are the source of the angels heaven in some form (I'll expand on this later). However, we _know_ that Noelle didnt make the first 2 (or 3, if you count the main one) dark fountains, and so we know another force is the one trying to cause this. I would also like to mention that Ralsei is the one who mentions both names: and yet, calls it the Roaring regardless, despite the term "Angels Heaven" being said before.
Notably, Noelle was present to hear Ralseis speech about the Roaring; she would likely be at least Dissuaded. Though, that didnt stop Kris so I'll hold on that.
In terms of motivation, I believe she has a strong motivation to avoid the Roaring specifically - namely her sister, Dess. We have very little information about her, but we know she's lost, and have good reason to believe she's alive (nb: "lost", not "gone". Game files have unused dialogue that may be her. Deltarune website has a cover of one of Noelle's theme called "findher.ogg", and the original theme is called "lost girl"). We also know Noelle is still very actively searching - based on her search history (revealed by queens custom room for her). Although she clearly cares for her father Rudy, I believe if ever she had motivation for any large action, it would be Dess.
In terms of Means, we all know Noelle has power. But we also know that she is meek. Even in the Weird Route, she is unwilling to use her power until forced. I think the idea that she will be manipulated or otherwise used isnt unlikely.
Now Id like to take a look at the words themselves. I agree somewhat on your analysis of the sentiment of the words Angel and Devil; although I feel theres more to say. The Angel is clearly a worshipped figure, noted by Alvin (and by Gerson in Undertale). It also links to the Delta Rune itself.
In Undertale, the Angel of prophecy is also relevant. Gerson tells us that "an angel who has seen the surface will descend to bring freedom", and that some believe it an angel of death.
Some Lore in Waterfall states that "The Angel will return, and the underground will go empty". This obviously refers to both the Genocide and the Pacifist Endings. By this we see that "Angel" doesnt have a purely negative nor positive connotation, rather its connotations are entirely dependant on the story route.
And yet, it is clear that the Angels Heaven is something we are trying to prevent (or, at least, stop after it happens). Assuming (surprisingly a large assumption actually) that Noelle acts as the angel, the word "Heaven" implies a positive place. As you stated, Noelle clearly has desires, to help her father, for example. This isnt _our_ heaven, it is the Angels - to me, this implies a place which is tailored specifically to the angel. With that being said, if Noelle _were_ to take agency upon herself to bring it, I doubt it would be in betrayal: I'm more willing to believe she would find it in our "best interests", whether mistakenly or not.
Next, our Secret bosses. Spamton mentions Heaven directly stating he requires a human soul to see it. In the weird route, he actively tries to prevent you from sealing the dark fountains, which _does_ imply a connection between them and Heaven. However, Heaven seems to be a time or place, not an event (spamtons "Look into heaven", banish the Angels Heaven, "Heaven are you watching")
Finally, I'd like to bring up Hell. Jevil specifies that "Hell's Roar bubbles from the depths". Its minor, and the only mention, but implies to me that the Roaring is in _opposition_ to Heaven.
Returning to the Legends a final time,
"Earth will draw her final breath
Only then, shining with hope
...
Only they can seal the fountain
And banish the angels heaven
Only _then_ will balance be restored"
"When light is subsumed by shadow
And fountains fill the sky
All will fall into chaos
...
Lost eternally in an endless night
Is that your idea of paradise?"
My analysis here is mostly unfounded, and subjective. Proceed with caution.
The way in which these are worded leads me to believe that Heaven and the Roaring are different events with the same cause. I personally think it may be that the Angels heaven follows Hells Roar. My reason for this is that the Legend seems sequential. "Seal the fountains, AND Banish heaven - only then will balance be restored". 2 tasks that must be completed: first, sealing the fountains, and halting the roaring; then, banishing the angels heaven, and ultimately restoring balance.
Balance, which is a key theme in deltarune, is very specifically 2-sided. Too much in either direction would cause inbalance. Perhaps in order to halt the roaring, all fountains must be sealed, causing an inbalance - not enough darkness, and hence the angels heaven. While only speculation, its clear that Balance plays a role in some form.
Some parting words. Thank you if you read all of this, please feel free to nitpick anything I've said - I'm also fallible! As of Chapter 2, there are too many unknown factors - Gaster, Ralsei, Noelle, Dess, and notably Alvin - who we _know_ is up to _something_ based on his dialogue at the graveyard "Were you proud of me, father? And... is it right for this hammer to..." [implying he is using Gersons hammer for some purpose he is unsure of].
With all these unknowns, its hard to tell who wants what, exactly. I've got many more thoughts but far too much to write in a youtube comment. Thanks for reading
Hey! Wow, thank you so much for being interested enough to write all this. I probably don't have to tell you that I'm a huge Deltarune fan, I've only made 2 theory videos so far (and some parts of the next video are written) but it's about the most fun I had on youtube (and coincidentally people love it the most too)
I like it because theorizing is a lot of fun, it's not even about being right, bouncing some ideas back and forwards is pretty nifty. It's especially easy to do in a game that still needs 5 more chapters with a creator that is VERY careful with his wording. There are so many dialogue pieces that could have a double meaning, and depending on what you see would make you arrive at an entirely different conclusion, it feels like there are enough clues to piece together a good picture without being TOO obvious.
Now to be more on-topic of your comment, you make very strong points that The Roaring and Angel's Heaven could be different.
"Only they can seal the fountains
And banish the ANGEL'S HEAVEN"
That does make it sound like it could be different, though it does go back to the whole 'some dialogues can be read several ways.' It also could
What Gerson said in Undertale is fascinating. I didn't really touch on it here, but I don't think The Angel is just about Noelle. Some parts I also think is about us, for example Spamton saying "[Heaven], are you WATCHING?" I believe is talking about the person controlling Kris. In console versions there is this bar around the screen, the top of the bar even has the Angel's symbol on it. In Undertale you could say it's up to heaven (person controlling Frisk) that decides HOW the underground will be emptied.
About the word 'betrayal' this is something I didn't properly clarify in the video, I didn't necessarily mean that they will be malicious or something of that nature. I mean more in a sense of 'We will be at odds with...' If someone from the fun gang betrays us I don't believe any of them would have malicious intend. Even Flowey was made to have sympathetic aspects by being Asriel.
Jevil's line being a hint that The Roaring is the opposite of heaven could be big, it could fit in with your following point. If balance is shifted one way the Angel's Heaven will appear and harm the world, if balance goes the other way it could cause The Roaring if we indeed assume those to be different. Either way I imagine the end result of those two events to be similar. Destruction.
Thanks again for writing this comment, it was a fun read. If you would like you could add me on discord (aroyalruby) and we could theorize more.
@@ARoyalRuby I really like the idea of Heaven being related to reality! Its been made pretty clear that we, the player, are relevant so I can totally see that. These days I replay deltarune on my switch for convenience, but I honestly hadnt once paid attention to the border itself, I'll have to go check back on them.
I've kinda forgotten my discord password haha, but I'll add you when I manage to get back into it! I'm honestly thinking of properly analysing a few more things about deltarune (maybe collating my long comment/essays haha)
I personally think that it could be Noelle and Ralesi different routes perhaps think about it
Great video ❤
Your thumbnail is better this time but also easily blends in with plenty of existing ones and doesn’t really stand out for that reason
Thumbnails, my mortal enemy...
Several were tried here. I was about to rebrand this entire video because none of them were working at all, but then some final changes kicked in and my abysmal stats looked favorable again! And yes, they stayed that way.
In the end I decided to stick with this one instead of risking anything, it was a VERY educational upload at least 😊
Will you theorize the roles for the 3 heroes in the upcoming chapters in the followup video?
Absolutely! Noelle is such a keypiece that it deserved it's own conversation, her and Susie also are the easiest for me to imagine a plot line for. I can think of several directions for Kris but Ralsei???
That goat leaves me utterly clueless, it's probably why people think he's evil. It's hard to think of what he will do if he truly is on our side 😭
@@ARoyalRuby Even Kris is confusing too because they haven't showed their full personality so far. Heck we don't even know how much antagonism Kris has towards us since they were just upset at us doing snowgrave and they ripped out the soul to cut tyres and create a dark fountain inside their house and in chapter 1 they just pulled out their knife with an evil grin but we don't know if the pie eating moment was genuine or a false alibi and if what did at the end of chapter 2 was suspicious or not.
Really good theory
Damnit, I was also making a video about this 😭 you beat me to it!
At least you can be assured that you aren't alone in this ;)
Not to mention, I also know I'm far from the only one with the "Noelle will betray us" take. This video does have it's own take on it (for example that we can't attach good to the word 'angel' like we would in real life)
You could stay make your video and have your own spin on it, if you make it you can reply to this comment or message me on discord and I promise I'll watch it
your pfp is very funny
If deer freezes bird, then bird strikes deer 22 times in the neck with axe thing. Simply don’t use snowgrave
THE [Impostor] IS OBVIOUSLY THAT [Big] [Godzilla lookin ahh] MEAN GIRL
JUST LOOK AT HER [Personal info3mation]
[SUSie]
I'm really fascinated by how many people point as Susie being SUSie, I'll have to replay and see if I missed anything 😳
@@ARoyalRuby I THINK YOUR [Customers] ARE JUST BEING [Clown around Town]
THAT [Pink Punk] IS ACHTUALLY REALLY [Nice!]
I think the angel could also signify that Noelle might die later in the game. I saw another theory like that.
you're probably right which makes me upset because i dont wanna fight her :(. If she goes against us she will probably end up being redeemed eventually at least because she is a good person at heart.
I doubt that Deltarune would give is such a downer ending that we would have to fight Noelle and for her to stay unredeemed. It would get emotional, it would be rough, but we surely would get through to her.
@@ARoyalRuby I feel like if she is going to be left unredeemed, it's probably going to be because of snowgrave. I can see her out of desperation being unwilling to give up any control or power she gains access to (similar to how she was being a controller hog in the hospital with rudy) and thus making it no longer possible for us to solve the conflict in a peaceful manner
The traitor has already breach our defenses
We can use items to empower our control on Noelle
But that's just a theory......
A GAME THEORY!!!!!!!!!
ANNNNDDD CUT
A GAY THEORY!!!!!
Thank you
How have you come to that conclusion at 0:43? I don't see any evidence for this.
These are just real life words that have a negativity or positivity attached to it.
"I feel the darkness in me."
"You need to see the light."
"Whoa, that story was dark, can we get something more light next time?"
I gave a few examples in the video as well, the words I named for a majority have a positive or negative lean. "You're a monster!" Wouldn't be said as a compliment, but we are literally in a game surrounded by monsters.
We need to be careful attaching additional positive or negative meaning to words, gaining EXP is seen as a good thing. Many people who played Undertale blind killed a few monsters because they were worried about their LV being low. In reality those 2 positive words are negative in Undertale but in every other game they are good, I named that a 'dark world' in most games would be an evil place but it's not in Deltarune.
Both games have used word with a strong negative or positive association and reversed it, that's why I don't just think that Ralsei's connection to the Devil makes him bad automatically.
I wonder the amount of people who watched the video vs. the amount of people who went in the comments to say "nah it's XXX".
I actually have statistics for this, about 30% watched the whole video. I do wonder how many seen the whole video, admittedly my connections aren't as strong as some others. I heavily depend on Ralsei's "I will be a good devil" to be direct foreshadowing instead of being a throwaway line. One day we'll see how this video ages and I can't be more excited!
Underated
It's Ralsei.
0:42 i did but only cause i was going back to check what you said
Nah, i don't think so. I don't think the girl we get to manipulate has malicious intent. If there is a traitor it most definitely is ralsei. 1st. If you enter his name in the GM sequence you get nothing. (If you enter Kris, Susie or Noelle you get AN INTERESTING COINCIDENCE, YOU ARE ABOUT TO MEET SOMEONE VERY, VERY WONDERFUL.) almost as if he is missing. 2nd the devil always tricks people, and its ever so natural, that he pretends he is good.
2:30 What about Christmas as a whole? It being Jesus' birthdate and Christianity being related to angels as a whole. The Holidays aren't really related to the religious side of Christmas though
To be honest I don’t think that there is a traitor besides a part of the game with the knight
if dess is alive I think she betrays us
There's an impostor AMOGUS
It was impossible for me to NOT make an among us references with this topic, I don't care if the joke is old for people 😭
@@ARoyalRubyit's kind of impressive how long that meme has lasted
SUSIE
SUSI
SUS
ITS SUSIE GUYS 😮😮😮😮
Real
@@ARoyalRubyIT NEVER GETS OLD!!!!😈😈😈
Ralsei
Imo, it'll be Kris
Susie could also do that.
Funnily enough, I think Susie is the only person we can rely on 😭
@@ARoyalRubyTrue because every other hero is suspicious in a way. Kris looking at us with an evil grin while pulling out the knife definitely seems like an indicator that they didn't just eat the pie that night and they also cut tyres and created a dark fountain inside their house even after being warned against it by Ralsei. You already made this video on how Noelle is the imposter among us and Ralsei seems to be hiding something by keeping a cute heroic facade. Susie is the only reliable one because she is the most honest and frank out of all 4 heroes.
0:14 berdly is not apart of that group
Could be Ralsei, I think that.
I think Kriss gonna betray us, as player, sooooo Kriss is ok with Noele ? If yes, snow grave is very bad for use, we trained him ally.
still think it's ralsei more but you are making me question noelle with this...
Berdly is the villain
yes hello i am toby fox (real)
good job predicting my game
1:45 🤔
hm?
Under 200 subs?
You could help change that!
For me, it's Ralsei: ver attitude is not normal!
We definitely have enough reason to suspect Ralsei of betraying us. We know he has some sort of plan at the very least.
It is not Susie because Susie turned to our friend, and she is all based on loyalty, show loyalty to her she will show loyalty to you and vice versa. It is probably in the Wrongsave route when she finds the truth of Kris or the players actions and we see that she doesn’t take betrayal well. It is not Berdly he is wayyy to small of a character, his personality being a gamer which fits perfectly in cyber world and no where else. Lancer is like 8 he doesnt have any reason to cause the roaring nor the means to do so. Kris already betrays us the player so he could be or couldn’t be a betrayer. Ralsie is to nice, knows Kris and Susie’s name before they tell him and knows wayyy more than he should, it makes sense from a meta perspective but to just have it go unexplained is not something Toby would do. Noelle is the character I think is going to depend on if you take the Wrongsave route.
I think Ralsei is still suspect for what he tells Kris to do offscreen while "we" (the SOUL) focus elsewhere., for the past 2 chapters.
@@dragonmangames2523 definitely
@@dragonmangames2523 until I watched theory’s I always imagined that Ralsie was talking about Susie or maybe how he even got this power
@@tearsofthekingdom9062 Until we see more of Deltarune's story, we'll never really know what the deal is with it.
@@dragonmangames2523 true
Lore of HIDDEN TRAITOR REVEALED: Deltarune theory momentum 100