I think Kelsier is a bit more mixed that some of what was being said. He acted for himself, but he also did love Mare and the crew. Vin acknowledges that. It's not that he didn't care about the skaa, it's just that he used that to also serve selfish ends and to justify almost any actions. In the context of the Final Empire that was heroic and self-sacrificial, but in a different context it leads to Lift in a cage being delivered to someone known as the Lady of Pains. Edit: I essentially agree fully with Matt's take, except on his take on Marsh.
I very much agree with this comment. Great people in history are complicated and do things for a variety of motivations. I enjoyed the analysis and different perspectives discussed in this video, but I feel that some folks are a bit too hard on Kelsier. If he was perfect, it would find his character much less compelling.
Can we have a podcast on Szeth next? *The dudes high spren never showed itself around the other highspren or skybreakers *It only showed up one time in the woods and only after he left nightblood behind *Szeth had to go to it to talk instead of it talking in his head or from anywhere *He's supposed to be at the 3rd ideal but he has never once used a shardblade *The guy straight up walked into a prison cell and killed someone that he was specifically ordered to protect not to kill and his spren didnt even bat an eye, that should snapped his bond like a twig! and its not like hes done the shin genocide yet so hes still operating under the law and under Dalinar.
While I see the Ghostbloods as villains, i'm still very positive on Kelsier. I don't begrudge him not going into the beyond even if he has no goal or something. He just wants to live a little longer, which is something very fundamental about all life. It's what i would maybe do too in the same situation. Time doesn't matter in the spiritual realm so it doesn't matter if he postpones going to the beyond. Also regardless of intentions, the fact that Kelsier has done so much good carries weight for me. Those actions can't be discounted in the same way you won't condone someone doing bad things just because their intention is good.
It's almost like he's a layered person, capable of being multiple things at the same time and doing things for multiple reasons, some of which he might not even be aware of. Is he a narcissist? Totally. Would Scadriel be dead without him? Absolutely. Potentially multiple times depending on what happens in Lost Metal. Does he have a tendency to put himself in a Messianic light? Yes. Has he actually been the savior to at least two different peoples? Also yes. Whatever your opinions on the guy, you can't just shove him into a "Love him or hate him" box. There's always another asterisk at the end of that comment.
Yeah I just finished secret history, and Harmony (Sazed) offered Vin and Elend a chance to go back to life because he fixed their bodies. They both denied but then what happened to Elends and vins bodies?!
I'm about a third done but I've noticed they're overlooking a major aspect of Kelsier's personality. Dude hates social injustice, you could even call him a social justice warrior ;) He is considered a bad person in a society that is *highly* socially stratefied. I mean, think about it. Even the good guys have a caste system that is pretty unquestioned. The closest they have to solving this problem is either gaining a Shardblade or becoming a Knight. That leaves *most* people still in a underprivileged situation. I think it is entirely possible that could be part of the reason Kelsier seems evil. One of Stormlight Archive's themes is perspective and that would only further this theme.
so is that part of his personality part of Kelsier's facade? or is it just another aspect of his selfishness? Because I think his hatred of the skaa system (if its genuine) could possibly be a form of victim entitlement. "This system wronged me, so I'm going to take it down." essentially. So does he hate social injustice, or does he hate things that wrong him?
@@animalia5554 what I’m saying a hatred of one system doesn’t necessarily mean you hate all similar systems. It really comes down to how much empathy he has. Which I think he has very little. He just fakes it very well
LOL for a second I went back to check Way of Kings to see where Lord of Scars is mentioned and then it hit me like duh! Thaidakar! Edit : I would also like to note here that Kelsier can’t have more than one spike, because anything more than one would open him up to Harmony’s control. So I think he won’t have more than one spike. And he has GOT to have one composite spike made of different metals. What say you, guys? Edit 2 : I feel there are two types of cognitive shadows. One, the copies, like the returned. They don’t retain memories of their earlier life. It’s a totally new person. A blank slate, so to speak maybe? So the original soul moves on to the Beyond and a new soul made of investiture is created anew by Endowment. The second ones are like Kelsier and the Rosharans (Heralds, Fused etc.) who retain their memories and hence are basically the same person. That’s what I think. Opinions?
Not necessarily. Paalm used a spike of an unknown (god) metal to avoid Harmony's attention. Kelsier could be able to do something similar. On the subject of the Returned, it's implied that Endowment takes their memories away to better mould them to whatever task she has in mind. Lightsong got impressions of his former life over time.
@@christopyromallis8237 Didn’t she always avoid two spikes though? Always had one spike in her? Or am I mistaken? Returned : It’s just my theory/interpretation, and I still would like to point out that having impressions of a past life and retaining all memories are both pretty different, wouldn’t you agree?
@@christopyromallis8237 Clearly they don't "lose" the memories. I presume that Endowment is suppressing them, because (as you say) they return at the moment of the Returned passing on his/her Divine Breath.
There’s a passage from bands where Mr suit says that you can have up to three spikes, and anymore would open you up to harmony’s control. In paalm’s case she could only have one because kandra work differently then people.
We recorded this earlier than the Brandon episode, and some of our questions in this Brandon did answer. Check it out if you haven't already: ruclips.net/video/dTooA4YrjsA/видео.html
*raises hand* “They’re both me so it doesn’t matter” is possibly the greatest mischaracterisation of that scene from The Prestige of all time. He explains in no uncertain terms how it was the ultimate sacrifice each and every night.
Good point! I always took that as the character over-exalting his virtues, but I admit its been a while since I watched the movie. I likely should have phrased that differently to make my point. :)
I feel like if Kelsier picked up harmony his intent would be "change in order to survive" I'm one of the proponents of the "Kelsier has the "Survive" dawnshard theory (came up with it on my own, didn't know other people had the same theory). My theory continues with this though: "Survive" is the Dawnshard that Hoid used to hold, which is why even though he doesn't hold it anymore, he's still very hard to kill (he survives) and cannot directly hurt others (threaten THEIR survival)
@@voidsabre_ "also" as in Kelsier doesn't necessarily need to hold the dawnshard directly. He could simply be affected by the command due the fact that Leras held it.
I'm almost certain that kelsier would never have more than one spike because then harmony or maybe other highly invested entities could control him. That doesn't sound like something hed be okay with.
I mentioned this to someone else, but it is possible he could have up to three different spikes. This is because in bands of mourning mr suit says that a person can have 3 spikes and anymore would allow them to be controlled by harmony. So this is basically saying up to three are possible. What I think is likely is that he has one spike made of multiple metals, however it is possible he had up to 3.
I've realized something while you were discussing whether or not Kelsier was a copy or the original that made me realize something: we are assuming that cognitive shadows work exactly the same regardless of the Investiture that made them cognitive shadows. With this I mean that cognitive shadows are at the same time Invested Entities AND Manifestations of Investiture. Which means that (e. g.) Nalthian cognitive shadows are different to Rosharan cognitive shadows and Scadrian cognitive shadows. Regarding the quote from Vasher, I think it's safe to assume that he is referring specifically to Nalthian cognitive shadows and Kelsier became a cognitive shadow through a different method. Mainly, returned have their memories removed, and it IS implied that their actual souls move to the beyond, leaving only their mind, whereas Kelsier I think we can all agree has both his mind AND soul, since he was able to hold the power of a shard (while not fully), which I believe is something that cognitive shadows WITHOUT their soul can do. So, to summarize, I believe we've been looking at the cognitive shadow thing wrongly. There's also something strange with Kelsier's 'shadowing' (?), as pointed out by Nazh in secret history, but I think we need to see more of shadow Kelsier to pick up on that
Remember that Zahel doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. The Returned do not actually lose their memories, Endowment just suppresses them. At the moment they fulfill their Intent, their memories return, as happened to Lightsong.
Regarding the Scars, for me it's just like Kaladin's scars: It was such a traumatic experience that it scarred not only his physical body, but his cognitive/spiritual self as well, to a point where even when you can grow limbs, you still can't remove a scar.
I feel like the command to SURVIVE has to have some magical significance based on how it is described and what we learn in Rhythm of War. "SURVIVE. The word vibrated through him, and Kelsier gasped. He knew that feeling, remembered that exact command. He’d heard that voice in the Pits. Waking him, driving him forward. Saving him." That vibration has to be playing a role and it reminds me of Harmony describing Vin entering the Well as an "attuning force" that would eventually allow her to take in all the mists and Ascend to hold Preservation. (HoA p. 553)
Kelsier actively recruited his brother in Final Empire. They do have a complicated relationship, but I fully expect that Kelsier recruited him again through Spook to learn about hemalurgy. It's the most likely source of their knowledge.
Alyx brought up the Hemalurgic sources, but it says I think in Bands that they had old dying metalborn volunteer to "donate" their power Also I don't agree with the idea that Kelsier was good in TFE and Secret History changed that perception, since I was 100% expecting him to kill The Lord Ruler and take his place I love when people compare Kelsier and Denth, where either of them is the villain in most stories but could easily end up on the "good" side Something about The Prestige speech he's talking about is my favorite part: that it's more about how people perceive the copy than the actual truth of it. "It was the looks on their faces"
Explaining the crazy theory about Dawnshards ... spoilers ... While in the Pits of Hathsin, Kelsier encountered the Dawnshard for SURVIVE. The Dawnshard changed him into a Mistborn. It's remarked upon in The Final Empire that it was extremely strange that Kelsier went his entire life without snapping, and then just happened to turn into a Mistborn and on the same day use his brand new powers to escape while fighting off the guards. A Dawnshard could explain everything. Ruin and Preservation created Scadriel from scratch, and what better way then with a Dawnshard which was used by Adonolsium to create the Cosmere. I think the SURVIVE Dawnshard still is hidden somewhere on the planet. Compare when Rysn hears CHANGE to when Kelsier hears SURVIVE. It's too similar.
This is interesting! I guess I just don't know if there's already a canon reason for his snapping. Even if there was, however, perhaps there was a Dawnshard? My only other thought is Preservation (Fuzz) implies that he - the Shard - was the source of the command / intent to survive? So I'm not sure. Still really cool theory though.
@@heygus20 The canon reason for Kelsier's snapping is seeing his wife murdered by the guards after she gave him the atium bead that could have saved her and doomed him. Brandon Sanderson remarked in the annotations of The Hero of Ages that it was strange that he went his whole life as a skaa thief without ever snapping, even the torture prior to being sent to the Pits and the weeks he spent there didn't snap him. It's never explained further.
In the passage about kelsier talking to preservation as he died it specifically says “remember what I told you so long ago” referring to when in the pits of hathsin he hears the word survive. So this basically confirms the voice that told him to survive was preservation.
One thing to look out for with regard to Cognitive Shadows is their memories. Zahel and Kalak both bring up loss of memories. Memories are are the cumulative store of your experience, they shape who you are as a person. It is not just investiture and intent that affects them but also loss of memories. Zahel is no longer the original person he was because his IRL memories are gone, taken away by Endowment. Kalak also talks about how he has forgotten stuff and he can't care enough to store/restore his memories at this point and how the eventual passage of time and loss of memories have changed him. I believe something similar will/is affecting Kelsier too. Whether or not the CS is a carbon copy, the passage of time will coz a loss of memories and start affecting his persona. I believe it is very likely that Thaidakar is no longer the Kelsier that we once knew. He will have changed just like the Fused or the Heralds, although not to the same extent.
Wait how does Kelsier not wanting to die make him a bad person?? Like idk it would have been nice for him to go with vin but it’s pretty understandable that the dude didn’t want to die
You know, I read all the cosmere and didn't expect spoilers here; but I never made the connection between the Returned and the other Cognitive Shadows. Lol.
Sometimes I watch these podcasts and realize how much I don’t know about the cosmere and it feels like I’m in a uni lecture that goes over my head. But like... in the best way?
Truly enjoyed this episode! After ROW I started my reread of Mistborn. The first time I read Kell’s death I couldn’t read Book Two for a month. This time knowing about the Ghostbloods etc I am enjoying paying attention to everything he says and also what others say of him. Appreciate all of the insight. Still a Kelsier fan.
33:39 not only did kelsier hold preservation and possibly retained some hemalurgy knowledge from that, but they also had Marsh. And Marsh probably knows a lot about hemalurgy
I love how books starting to be connected all to eachother and I love Kalsier as character. This episode convinced me to subscribe, going to watch all other podcasts, amazing content to watch at work :-D
I may be wrong but to me Command and Intent are easy to differentiate. I see Intent as what you want, for instance "I want you to go there and bring me back that thing" and Command is just a verbalisation of the intent, for instance : "fetch". In this way, A fairly complicate Intent can be verbalized by a simple Command.
re: he was our god before he came to us Could he be talking about Preservation? As in, "How did you learn all that?" "Oh, I was a god, for a few months"
Is there any discussion of whether the Ghostblood tattoo is Selish? As in, could it have an affect on those who wear it in the same way as tattoos in The Emperor's Soul? Was this already answered and I just missed it?
Just making a tattoo wouldn't grant Selish magic. You have to have a Connection to the right place on Sel (normally by being born there) to use that geographic magic. No matter how hard he tried, Raoden couldn't make a Soul Stamp, and Shai couldn't use AonDor, even though the two look really similar to us.
@@carl11547 I guess I should just always include a reference to the fact that characters in the Cosmere seem to be constantly finding ways around these "rules" as we continue exploring more of it. The implication being that I was referring to the idea of them doing so here. I mean, they have literally stated that they are looking for ways to get around the loss of investiture when moving it offworld. Who's to say they haven't already figured out the connection problem?
Totally agree with Matt and Evgeni regarding Kelsier. He can be ambitious and narcissistic while also caring about the people he's trying to save. Like Matt said, those things aren't mutually exclusive. Just because we later learned that his actions in Final Empire might have been partially due to his need to be in control, doesn't necessarily mean that all the positive traits that Alyx initially liked about him were all a lie. People are multilayered and complicated. In fact that dichotamy is what makes Kelsier an interesting character to me. He was also my favourite character in book 1 for the same reasons that Alyx mentioned but I also thought that he was lacking some depth until I read Secret History. Besides, you could kind of have a similar conversation about Kaladin. Granted his actions are much more morally sound than Kelsier's, but his need to save people is directly tied to his own self worth, and is therefore partially selfish in nature. That doesn't make him any less of a good person, it's just how humans are in my opinion. Also, considering Vin's last words to Kelsier in secret history and the passage that was read in this video, I personally think that Kelsier's being set up for a character development arc there, one that he didn't get the chance to have in era 1 due to dying. Also just my 2 cents, but I think some people might be SLIGHTLY overestimating Kelsier's capacity to do fucked up things. (although in fairness we don't really know how his mental state has been affected by being a cognitive shadow but still)
i don't feel strongly on this, and I haven't check the WoBs, but if Ruin seems greater than Preservation in Harmony, could it be that, rather than there being an additional chunk of Ruin, there is a missing chunk of Preservation? And if that is the case, could we then circle back to Kalsier being an 'avatar' of Preservation? In the Preservation's death scene from Secret History, Preservation grows a little more present and definitley seems to give a Command (don't kill me), and then later Kalsier ascends, and both expands spiritually and gets lathered in Preservation energy. Counter to all this though, is how does this fit with the information on the infinity of shards that we get in Rhythm of War?
Kelsier: I'm in 100% agreement on Alyx's analysis of Kelsier but have come to the opposite conclusion. Though I hate that I was suckered in by him, I love what a character like him says. We are far too eager to love book and movie characters who do very bad things (like killing based on class and thieving just to steal) as long as they also do heroic deeds, defeat evil, and our heroes love them. We were suckered so easily. Or at least I was. There's a proverb that tells us that a man who winks is wicked and worthless. And I was like, what? That's silly. I love lots of men who wink. But when I sat back and did a deep dive into each of their characters, they all came up wanting. Kelsier is a winker, and I missed it. But I absolutely love that it was there all along, and I just need to read more carefully.
Am I the only one that saw the narcissistic hateful revenge monster hiding behind that plastered on smile of Kelsier in the first book? He was constantly choosing to be happy and optimistic which is dramatically different than being those those things Also bad people can want to do good things for the sole reason of trying to be a good person. Kaladin says this about Dalinar after he gives up Oathbringer. Something like: at what point does the pretending become reality? Or like Amos from The Expanse where he's definitely not a good person, but wants desperately to be one; so he attaches himself to good people to do what they do =)
Basically yes. Your Soul is formed by the way you see yourself and Kaladin did not see himself as a free person until the end of book 4 so he did not change and for Kelsier, well the scars have become integral to how he sees himself so they are part of him.
I think his arm scars are like residual self image. Just like how Kaladin still has his slave brands ***Rythem of War Spoilers*** Until after his 4th ideal. Even though he apparently could have fixed them earlier like The Lopin's arm growing back. Kaladin finally didn't see himself as a slave & Kelsier still see's himself as the Lord of Scars. It's part of his Spiritweb / Identity. My head canon is that when he climbed through the Well / Perpendicularity from the spiritual realm, because he was Invested his body reformed when coming back to the Physical realm. Similar to how the fused can form a body with Voidlight and leave a physical husk behind each time.
Kelsier was always someone who used people around him for what he perceived to be right. I think you can sort of see early on who he really is, especially given the things he is willing to do as part of book 1 in addition to the other hints you get of how he acted before the events of book 1. He is perhaps one of the most complex cosmere characters.
Listening at 48 minutes > the hate on Kelsier are unfounded. I think you’re forgetting how broken the Skaa, Marsh, Vin, society, Lord Ruler; he was a by product of his world. His motives after leaving his mortal bounds are now for broken gods and worlds
The definition of good in the sentence "Hemolurgy is good now because Sazid is in charge." (Audiobook listener I am sure I got the quote and spelling slightly to very wrong) Good: not going to make you a slave to a god whose only purpose is to ruin everything including but not limited to your life, the world and everything on it.
My late brother's favorite theory was that the host was a lower case survivor of hathstine. Since Kelsier set free all of the people who were there before destroying the pits.
One more thought. Do we know for sure that Hemalurgy works how we think it does? Could it be used to attach investiture to someone without actually killing someone? I'm probably being too paranoid, but it was worth throwing out there.
This is most likely the case, Kelsier’s end goal is to punch every vessel after his death, I would be surprised if he hadn’t punched Rayse before or during RoW
Guys your reflections on ours favorite revolutionary give me one more reason to let off loud my hot, probably controversial take on our today's subject. But first some thoughts on motivation, I sincerely think his goal is greater cosmere without shard intervening in people lives. If it means cosmere without shards, so be it. Mild malazan spoilers, but I guess you shouldn't care because they're really mild and only refer to one character... motivations, which are quite really unclear, and if it's to be to true I'm here to witness it till the end of the cosmere. I'M HERE FOR IT Kelsier is cosmere Shadowthrone
I have this sneaking feeling that Brandon’s building towards a full blown war between space age technology Scadriel led by Kelsier with and Roshar with more advanced fabriald for era 3. Considering that other planets are already looking at Roshar as an investure mine and era 3 is confirmed to have technology at that level
There was way too much in here to comment on but this was a fun one for sure. I have so many thoughts and theories but all I can say is that I have been HAUNTED by the "he was only a hero in those circumstances and could have easily been the villain if things had been different" and guys I am Terrified. 😅 I thought I wanted to reread Mistborn bad after RoW but this one got me Sweating for it. I am starting the reread in March though, as part of a year long Cosmere readalong I'm hosting here on youtube, so I'll get to sate that thirst soon but AHHHH. I'm also super proud I got the first Who's That Cosmere Character on clue 3! Can't wait till the next one guys, Life Before Death. 🦀 - Bree
I don't know if this question belongs here but why didn't sazed fix the physiology of the southern scadrians? I'm listening to the epilogue of hero of ages and sazed sees how the human body was pre ascension. Kinda looks like he ignored them or didn't know they were there (edit: lol you guys ended up talking about it and seem just as iffy as me)
@@Jinb-ut7bx is that true? If so then sazed certainly should have known about them. Why did he leave them to freeze (they did change because they adapted to the heat. Apparently 1k years was enough for that to occur) after he corrected the orbit and fixed all of the other people?
@@eaptan Likely because he is constrained by being both Ruin and Preservation. He is Harmony so he did this great thing to help the people he cared about but it had to be balanced by doing this asshole thing to other people.
Fortunately for you, he's going to be on two of the February episodes, which we recorded yesterday. He's been extremely busy with his work over the last year. I try to fit people in on the topics they are most passionate about. -Eric
Wild theory Kelsier seizes Honor's shards becoming Honor briefly causing chaos for Odium. Using both honor's and preservation's (remaining) investiture.
If a cognitive shadow was simply a copy, that would mean there would have exist an original at the same time, but the original is nowhere to be seen so that means it moves to the beyond instantly and the cognitive shadow stays in the world of the living. That would go against the believe that if you stay as a cognitive shadow, you don't go to the beyond. I think Vasher understanding is wrong, the explanation he gives in RoW is not 100% true and they are not copies of the original soul. They are their original souls powered with investiture.
That weird WOB about opposite eye spikes, was it not just saying that Kelsier as the sovereign ended up with the eye spike that Vin removed from Marsh just before she ascended? I mean it makes sense that Marsh simply popped it back in after she misted out of there and I can't remember if Marsh had it back when he fought Elend but maybe shenanigans happened and it ended up in Kelsier's new 'sovereign' body.
I don't think that Kelsier and Spook would have needed to experiment with hemalurgy, and Spook specifically warns against it in his book. I think they had Marsh's help, as he did lots of spiking of people to steal powers in Era 1. Also, he had the book and gave it to Wax against Harmony's will. Also, Spook advocated for asking the terminally ill and elderly to sacrifice themselves. Here's the quote from Bands of Mourning: The Lord Mistborn advocated gathering the Metalborn who were elderly or terminally ill, then asking them to sacrifice themselves to make these … spikes, which could in turn be used to create individuals of great power. He made a good argument in the book. It wouldn’t have been so disturbing if it had been easy to dismiss. p. 111-112
Bands of Mourning Spoilers: . . . . . . . . The Soverign visiting southern Scadrial after Keliser's death in the Empire is akin to Jesus appearing in the New World after his crucifixion and ressurection, as told in the Book of Mormon. I can't help but see Brandon's Mormon background providing inspiration for that part of the story. Pretty neat.
Did keleser drain the bands of mourning to get the jugs of investiture that moonlight used in the lost metal. If so, could he be looking to get stormlight to charge the bands to give him the lord rulers power, The power of alumancy and feruchemy bypassing the need for a shard to grant him access to investiture.
I know I’m really late in commenting I just discovered this channel recently and am watching the videos out of order. I have a thought that I think Alyx is forgetting around the 54:00 mark. Kelsier succeeds! He saved an entire race of people not once but twice. Brandon makes it very clear the southerners were dying wholesale. They were on the verge of extinction. While I agree kelsier is selfish and has a very dark side and doesn’t do what most of us would do like the villain, I think he is also a great protagonist. Ian said it best he’s an anti hero! And he is a very effective one at that.
Crazy theory now, what if Adonalsium was never destroyed and splintered! What if he simply got bored and wanted to create a greater chess board so elevated men to shard level power to simply see what would happen. All shards have the ability to hide themselves. What if Adonalsium is just watching what men would do with the circumstance and Hoid is actually his Avatar simply mingling and just being his point of contact for the cosmere?
I think that Ian is wrong and Kelsier isn't antihero. Anti-hero is someone like Punisher in Marvel a person who did a lot of bad things but have a good reason. Kelsier is more like anti-villan. He can do good things, but his reasons are very, very bad
I think Kelsier got hooked up on that Shard juice and is now looking for another hit of it. Think about it what happened to the last person that hold a Shard (or part of it) and survived? He later went to become The Lord Ruler, a "God Emperor" he got addicted to the power. Kelsier is probably the same after tasting godhhod he might be trying to get a hold of another Shard And what Ian says makes sense. That Kelsier tells the ghostbloods that his current body is just an avatar because he is so much greater Because Kelsier _believes_ he is a god and this form of his is just temporary until he can get to hold a Shard again and thart would be his "real" form
Mentioned in the Way of Kings... Well that will be an interesting reread for the readalong I'm hosting. We're at The Final Empire now I clearly need an era 2 reread...
I think the status of Kelsier is dependent on Brandon's intent of his moral place in the story narrative. I do not see Kelsier's personality as evil. It was his ignorance that caused harm. His personality is somewhat the opposite of Taravangian. The more knowledge Taravangian obtains the more evil and selfish he gets. I think the more knowledge Kelsier gets the more altruistic he will become.
I mean preservation/survive does it matter? We see what leras does to elend with a knife, so are his actions on roshar all that different when you extrapolate the scale
Kelsier and Spook are the Rick and Morty of the Cosmere
This is a hottake that i am willing to support
I don't honestly like the finer points of that show, but yeah... the 'intent' is there
Best comment of 2021 so far!
Damnation to You @dominic Pizano! Damnation to You! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 But with love. Respect! 🦀🦐🦞🦜🦜🐔🐔🐓🎉🎉🎉🐲🐲
LMAO!
Kelsier: *lies to himself*
Me: oh no (hears a cryptic humming)
00p
Oh my god
I think Kelsier is a bit more mixed that some of what was being said. He acted for himself, but he also did love Mare and the crew. Vin acknowledges that. It's not that he didn't care about the skaa, it's just that he used that to also serve selfish ends and to justify almost any actions. In the context of the Final Empire that was heroic and self-sacrificial, but in a different context it leads to Lift in a cage being delivered to someone known as the Lady of Pains.
Edit: I essentially agree fully with Matt's take, except on his take on Marsh.
I very much agree with this comment. Great people in history are complicated and do things for a variety of motivations. I enjoyed the analysis and different perspectives discussed in this video, but I feel that some folks are a bit too hard on Kelsier. If he was perfect, it would find his character much less compelling.
I’m definitely pro Kelsier. Tbh if Kelsier became like a very main antagonist I’d probably route for him lmao
Same lol
Yup sammmmmeee lol
He'll be odium after taravangian is done
Sazed: Build radios, kids. Don't use hemalurgy
Do science kids! Not body piercing drugs
Become influences, not surgeons
Guys it is not this hard. Kelsier the real hero of the Cosmere.
#JoinTheCrew
-Hak
3 hours? Sign me up. I can't wait to see Alyx's take on the Lord of Scars given her... disposition towards him haha.
Can we have a podcast on Szeth next?
*The dudes high spren never showed itself around the other highspren or skybreakers
*It only showed up one time in the woods and only after he left nightblood behind
*Szeth had to go to it to talk instead of it talking in his head or from anywhere
*He's supposed to be at the 3rd ideal but he has never once used a shardblade
*The guy straight up walked into a prison cell and killed someone that he was specifically ordered to protect not to kill and his spren didnt even bat an eye, that should snapped his bond like a twig! and its not like hes done the shin genocide yet so hes still operating under the law and under Dalinar.
He didn't kill mr t. But he did intend to. If that's the guy in the cell your talking about.
A Szeth podcast has been on our list for a while! -Eric
@@nicholasgait3739 the spren and Szeth don't know that though! :O
@@GiuseppeBernal he grabbed nightblood so by the letter of the law szeth didn't kill him.
@@17thShard yueesssssss! Thank youuu
While I see the Ghostbloods as villains, i'm still very positive on Kelsier. I don't begrudge him not going into the beyond even if he has no goal or something. He just wants to live a little longer, which is something very fundamental about all life. It's what i would maybe do too in the same situation. Time doesn't matter in the spiritual realm so it doesn't matter if he postpones going to the beyond.
Also regardless of intentions, the fact that Kelsier has done so much good carries weight for me. Those actions can't be discounted in the same way you won't condone someone doing bad things just because their intention is good.
It's almost like he's a layered person, capable of being multiple things at the same time and doing things for multiple reasons, some of which he might not even be aware of. Is he a narcissist? Totally. Would Scadriel be dead without him? Absolutely. Potentially multiple times depending on what happens in Lost Metal. Does he have a tendency to put himself in a Messianic light? Yes. Has he actually been the savior to at least two different peoples? Also yes. Whatever your opinions on the guy, you can't just shove him into a "Love him or hate him" box. There's always another asterisk at the end of that comment.
Just 30 minutes in, but... Harmony created a body BEFORE Kelsier asked him: The one for Elend
Yeah I just finished secret history, and Harmony (Sazed) offered Vin and Elend a chance to go back to life because he fixed their bodies. They both denied but then what happened to Elends and vins bodies?!
@@Stowens93 They are buried in the middle of Elendel.
I feel like Kelsier loves Vin too much to pull something like that
I just love the "There's always another secret" on the back of Bands of Mourning
Listen to the audio book. It gets creepier.
I'm about a third done but I've noticed they're overlooking a major aspect of Kelsier's personality. Dude hates social injustice, you could even call him a social justice warrior ;) He is considered a bad person in a society that is *highly* socially stratefied. I mean, think about it. Even the good guys have a caste system that is pretty unquestioned. The closest they have to solving this problem is either gaining a Shardblade or becoming a Knight. That leaves *most* people still in a underprivileged situation. I think it is entirely possible that could be part of the reason Kelsier seems evil. One of Stormlight Archive's themes is perspective and that would only further this theme.
Is that the difference between Cultivation and Ruin?
so is that part of his personality part of Kelsier's facade? or is it just another aspect of his selfishness? Because I think his hatred of the skaa system (if its genuine) could possibly be a form of victim entitlement.
"This system wronged me, so I'm going to take it down." essentially.
So does he hate social injustice, or does he hate things that wrong him?
@@PonderingsOfPete Why not both?
@@animalia5554 do you mean preservation and ruin?
@@animalia5554 what I’m saying a hatred of one system doesn’t necessarily mean you hate all similar systems. It really comes down to how much empathy he has. Which I think he has very little. He just fakes it very well
LOL for a second I went back to check Way of Kings to see where Lord of Scars is mentioned and then it hit me like duh! Thaidakar!
Edit : I would also like to note here that Kelsier can’t have more than one spike, because anything more than one would open him up to Harmony’s control. So I think he won’t have more than one spike. And he has GOT to have one composite spike made of different metals. What say you, guys?
Edit 2 : I feel there are two types of cognitive shadows. One, the copies, like the returned. They don’t retain memories of their earlier life. It’s a totally new person. A blank slate, so to speak maybe? So the original soul moves on to the Beyond and a new soul made of investiture is created anew by Endowment. The second ones are like Kelsier and the Rosharans (Heralds, Fused etc.) who retain their memories and hence are basically the same person. That’s what I think. Opinions?
Not necessarily. Paalm used a spike of an unknown (god) metal to avoid Harmony's attention. Kelsier could be able to do something similar.
On the subject of the Returned, it's implied that Endowment takes their memories away to better mould them to whatever task she has in mind. Lightsong got impressions of his former life over time.
@@christopyromallis8237 Didn’t she always avoid two spikes though? Always had one spike in her? Or am I mistaken?
Returned : It’s just my theory/interpretation, and I still would like to point out that having impressions of a past life and retaining all memories are both pretty different, wouldn’t you agree?
Or Harmony could just be turning a blind eye to his old friend.
@@christopyromallis8237 Clearly they don't "lose" the memories. I presume that Endowment is suppressing them, because (as you say) they return at the moment of the Returned passing on his/her Divine Breath.
There’s a passage from bands where Mr suit says that you can have up to three spikes, and anymore would open you up to harmony’s control. In paalm’s case she could only have one because kandra work differently then people.
The Ghostbloods are buying Sel-phones from the Ire
Underrated comment lol
Lmao
We recorded this earlier than the Brandon episode, and some of our questions in this Brandon did answer. Check it out if you haven't already: ruclips.net/video/dTooA4YrjsA/видео.html
makes sense. your thoughts on Kelsier are far more cynical than Brandon indicated
These guys fandom-energy is seemingly unlimited. How can they churn out a 2-3 hour podcast like this on any topic in the Cosmere?
*raises hand*
“They’re both me so it doesn’t matter” is possibly the greatest mischaracterisation of that scene from The Prestige of all time. He explains in no uncertain terms how it was the ultimate sacrifice each and every night.
Good point! I always took that as the character over-exalting his virtues, but I admit its been a while since I watched the movie. I likely should have phrased that differently to make my point. :)
I feel like if Kelsier picked up harmony his intent would be "change in order to survive"
I'm one of the proponents of the "Kelsier has the "Survive" dawnshard theory (came up with it on my own, didn't know other people had the same theory). My theory continues with this though: "Survive" is the Dawnshard that Hoid used to hold, which is why even though he doesn't hold it anymore, he's still very hard to kill (he survives) and cannot directly hurt others (threaten THEIR survival)
It could also be that Leras held or once held the survive dawnshard and his command affected Kelsier.
@@Haxerous that's my theory, so I don't know what the "also" means
@@voidsabre_ "also" as in Kelsier doesn't necessarily need to hold the dawnshard directly. He could simply be affected by the command due the fact that Leras held it.
@@Haxerous well, if Leras held it and he died, then it had to go somewhere
@@voidsabre_ we don't really know what happens to dawnshards when the person dies. Like it's not necessary to have just gone to Kelsier.
I'm almost certain that kelsier would never have more than one spike because then harmony or maybe other highly invested entities could control him. That doesn't sound like something hed be okay with.
I mentioned this to someone else, but it is possible he could have up to three different spikes. This is because in bands of mourning mr suit says that a person can have 3 spikes and anymore would allow them to be controlled by harmony. So this is basically saying up to three are possible. What I think is likely is that he has one spike made of multiple metals, however it is possible he had up to 3.
Liu Cixin should write a Cosmere crossover novel about Kelsier called The No Body Problem.
Everyone: I want to get a tattoo.
Kelsier: I want scars, lots of scars
I've realized something while you were discussing whether or not Kelsier was a copy or the original that made me realize something: we are assuming that cognitive shadows work exactly the same regardless of the Investiture that made them cognitive shadows. With this I mean that cognitive shadows are at the same time Invested Entities AND Manifestations of Investiture. Which means that (e. g.) Nalthian cognitive shadows are different to Rosharan cognitive shadows and Scadrian cognitive shadows. Regarding the quote from Vasher, I think it's safe to assume that he is referring specifically to Nalthian cognitive shadows and Kelsier became a cognitive shadow through a different method. Mainly, returned have their memories removed, and it IS implied that their actual souls move to the beyond, leaving only their mind, whereas Kelsier I think we can all agree has both his mind AND soul, since he was able to hold the power of a shard (while not fully), which I believe is something that cognitive shadows WITHOUT their soul can do. So, to summarize, I believe we've been looking at the cognitive shadow thing wrongly. There's also something strange with Kelsier's 'shadowing' (?), as pointed out by Nazh in secret history, but I think we need to see more of shadow Kelsier to pick up on that
Agreed.
Remember that Zahel doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. The Returned do not actually lose their memories, Endowment just suppresses them. At the moment they fulfill their Intent, their memories return, as happened to Lightsong.
@@carl11547 Good point! Didn't remember that
1:27:28 watch Alyx's face when Matt talks about the similarity between Kaladin and Kelsier. :D
Regarding the Scars, for me it's just like Kaladin's scars: It was such a traumatic experience that it scarred not only his physical body, but his cognitive/spiritual self as well, to a point where even when you can grow limbs, you still can't remove a scar.
I feel like the command to SURVIVE has to have some magical significance based on how it is described and what we learn in Rhythm of War.
"SURVIVE.
The word vibrated through him, and Kelsier gasped. He knew that feeling, remembered that exact command. He’d heard that voice in the Pits. Waking him, driving him forward.
Saving him."
That vibration has to be playing a role and it reminds me of Harmony describing Vin entering the Well as an "attuning force" that would eventually allow her to take in all the mists and Ascend to hold Preservation. (HoA p. 553)
Great catch.
I love how the more he schemes and grows the more similar he grows to the Lord Ruler.
You fools. You've doomed us all. Last line of the Lord Ruler.
Jesus do I need to create r/Kelsierdidnothingwrong
You don’t need to do that. It’s just other people’s opinion. No need to react so heavily dude.
Kelsier sends a Kandra to Roshar as an "avatar"
Kelsier actively recruited his brother in Final Empire. They do have a complicated relationship, but I fully expect that Kelsier recruited him again through Spook to learn about hemalurgy. It's the most likely source of their knowledge.
Alyx brought up the Hemalurgic sources, but it says I think in Bands that they had old dying metalborn volunteer to "donate" their power
Also I don't agree with the idea that Kelsier was good in TFE and Secret History changed that perception, since I was 100% expecting him to kill The Lord Ruler and take his place
I love when people compare Kelsier and Denth, where either of them is the villain in most stories but could easily end up on the "good" side
Something about The Prestige speech he's talking about is my favorite part: that it's more about how people perceive the copy than the actual truth of it. "It was the looks on their faces"
Explaining the crazy theory about Dawnshards ... spoilers ...
While in the Pits of Hathsin, Kelsier encountered the Dawnshard for SURVIVE. The Dawnshard changed him into a Mistborn. It's remarked upon in The Final Empire that it was extremely strange that Kelsier went his entire life without snapping, and then just happened to turn into a Mistborn and on the same day use his brand new powers to escape while fighting off the guards. A Dawnshard could explain everything. Ruin and Preservation created Scadriel from scratch, and what better way then with a Dawnshard which was used by Adonolsium to create the Cosmere. I think the SURVIVE Dawnshard still is hidden somewhere on the planet.
Compare when Rysn hears CHANGE to when Kelsier hears SURVIVE. It's too similar.
This is interesting! I guess I just don't know if there's already a canon reason for his snapping. Even if there was, however, perhaps there was a Dawnshard?
My only other thought is Preservation (Fuzz) implies that he - the Shard - was the source of the command / intent to survive? So I'm not sure.
Still really cool theory though.
@@heygus20 The canon reason for Kelsier's snapping is seeing his wife murdered by the guards after she gave him the atium bead that could have saved her and doomed him. Brandon Sanderson remarked in the annotations of The Hero of Ages that it was strange that he went his whole life as a skaa thief without ever snapping, even the torture prior to being sent to the Pits and the weeks he spent there didn't snap him. It's never explained further.
In the passage about kelsier talking to preservation as he died it specifically says “remember what I told you so long ago” referring to when in the pits of hathsin he hears the word survive. So this basically confirms the voice that told him to survive was preservation.
One thing to look out for with regard to Cognitive Shadows is their memories. Zahel and Kalak both bring up loss of memories. Memories are are the cumulative store of your experience, they shape who you are as a person. It is not just investiture and intent that affects them but also loss of memories.
Zahel is no longer the original person he was because his IRL memories are gone, taken away by Endowment. Kalak also talks about how he has forgotten stuff and he can't care enough to store/restore his memories at this point and how the eventual passage of time and loss of memories have changed him.
I believe something similar will/is affecting Kelsier too. Whether or not the CS is a carbon copy, the passage of time will coz a loss of memories and start affecting his persona. I believe it is very likely that Thaidakar is no longer the Kelsier that we once knew. He will have changed just like the Fused or the Heralds, although not to the same extent.
Wait how does Kelsier not wanting to die make him a bad person?? Like idk it would have been nice for him to go with vin but it’s pretty understandable that the dude didn’t want to die
I agree, especially considering the guy was only mid-thirties when he died.
You know, I read all the cosmere and didn't expect spoilers here; but I never made the connection between the Returned and the other Cognitive Shadows. Lol.
Perfectly timed beer sip from Argent after the "Technically he was mentioned in the Way of Kings prologue"
XD
I’ve been trying to learn more about the cosmere... my mind is now shattered into 16 shards
I like when you Talk of the motif of mistborn being the Hero becoming the villain, Rashek, Kelsier, and most probably our beloved friend Sazed.
Sometimes I watch these podcasts and realize how much I don’t know about the cosmere and it feels like I’m in a uni lecture that goes over my head. But like... in the best way?
Makes me want to pick up these side books I've been missing out on.
Truly enjoyed this episode! After ROW I started my reread of Mistborn. The first time I read Kell’s death I couldn’t read Book Two for a month. This time knowing about the Ghostbloods etc I am enjoying paying attention to everything he says and also what others say of him. Appreciate all of the insight. Still a Kelsier fan.
33:39 not only did kelsier hold preservation and possibly retained some hemalurgy knowledge from that, but they also had Marsh. And Marsh probably knows a lot about hemalurgy
What if Kelsier had become the shard that Harmony is?
It would be: I ruin to preserve myself
I love how books starting to be connected all to eachother and I love Kalsier as character. This episode convinced me to subscribe, going to watch all other podcasts, amazing content to watch at work :-D
I may be wrong but to me Command and Intent are easy to differentiate. I see Intent as what you want, for instance "I want you to go there and bring me back that thing" and Command is just a verbalisation of the intent, for instance : "fetch". In this way, A fairly complicate Intent can be verbalized by a simple Command.
Ya, they recorded this before the Brandon Sanderson episode where they asked him about that. He explained it essentially like you did
In re reading secret history, I interpreted that Kelsier became the Shard Preservation until he gave the Shard to Vin
That's what it says, yes. The panelists referred to this, though not consistently.
Yes, that is exactly what occurred. -Eric
I'm 30 minutes into this thing and you guys have pointed out so much stuff that went over my head!
Kelsier’s goal is to mass produce the bands of morning.
Love Ian's and Argent's smiles at 1:05:25 when they see the cat.
re: he was our god before he came to us
Could he be talking about Preservation? As in, "How did you learn all that?" "Oh, I was a god, for a few months"
Honestly, what an amazing episode. Loved this discussion about our main man Scar boi. Gave me a lot to think about!
Is there any discussion of whether the Ghostblood tattoo is Selish? As in, could it have an affect on those who wear it in the same way as tattoos in The Emperor's Soul? Was this already answered and I just missed it?
I think the tattoo is Mare's flower.
Great idea!
Just making a tattoo wouldn't grant Selish magic. You have to have a Connection to the right place on Sel (normally by being born there) to use that geographic magic. No matter how hard he tried, Raoden couldn't make a Soul Stamp, and Shai couldn't use AonDor, even though the two look really similar to us.
@@carl11547 I guess I should just always include a reference to the fact that characters in the Cosmere seem to be constantly finding ways around these "rules" as we continue exploring more of it. The implication being that I was referring to the idea of them doing so here. I mean, they have literally stated that they are looking for ways to get around the loss of investiture when moving it offworld. Who's to say they haven't already figured out the connection problem?
Totally agree with Matt and Evgeni regarding Kelsier. He can be ambitious and narcissistic while also caring about the people he's trying to save. Like Matt said, those things aren't mutually exclusive. Just because we later learned that his actions in Final Empire might have been partially due to his need to be in control, doesn't necessarily mean that all the positive traits that Alyx initially liked about him were all a lie. People are multilayered and complicated. In fact that dichotamy is what makes Kelsier an interesting character to me. He was also my favourite character in book 1 for the same reasons that Alyx mentioned but I also thought that he was lacking some depth until I read Secret History.
Besides, you could kind of have a similar conversation about Kaladin. Granted his actions are much more morally sound than Kelsier's, but his need to save people is directly tied to his own self worth, and is therefore partially selfish in nature. That doesn't make him any less of a good person, it's just how humans are in my opinion.
Also, considering Vin's last words to Kelsier in secret history and the passage that was read in this video, I personally think that Kelsier's being set up for a character development arc there, one that he didn't get the chance to have in era 1 due to dying. Also just my 2 cents, but I think some people might be SLIGHTLY overestimating Kelsier's capacity to do fucked up things. (although in fairness we don't really know how his mental state has been affected by being a cognitive shadow but still)
i don't feel strongly on this, and I haven't check the WoBs, but if Ruin seems greater than Preservation in Harmony, could it be that, rather than there being an additional chunk of Ruin, there is a missing chunk of Preservation? And if that is the case, could we then circle back to Kalsier being an 'avatar' of Preservation? In the Preservation's death scene from Secret History, Preservation grows a little more present and definitley seems to give a Command (don't kill me), and then later Kalsier ascends, and both expands spiritually and gets lathered in Preservation energy. Counter to all this though, is how does this fit with the information on the infinity of shards that we get in Rhythm of War?
Kelsier: I'm in 100% agreement on Alyx's analysis of Kelsier but have come to the opposite conclusion. Though I hate that I was suckered in by him, I love what a character like him says. We are far too eager to love book and movie characters who do very bad things (like killing based on class and thieving just to steal) as long as they also do heroic deeds, defeat evil, and our heroes love them. We were suckered so easily. Or at least I was.
There's a proverb that tells us that a man who winks is wicked and worthless. And I was like, what? That's silly. I love lots of men who wink. But when I sat back and did a deep dive into each of their characters, they all came up wanting. Kelsier is a winker, and I missed it. But I absolutely love that it was there all along, and I just need to read more carefully.
Am I the only one that saw the narcissistic hateful revenge monster hiding behind that plastered on smile of Kelsier in the first book? He was constantly choosing to be happy and optimistic which is dramatically different than being those those things
Also bad people can want to do good things for the sole reason of trying to be a good person. Kaladin says this about Dalinar after he gives up Oathbringer. Something like: at what point does the pretending become reality? Or like Amos from The Expanse where he's definitely not a good person, but wants desperately to be one; so he attaches himself to good people to do what they do =)
Do kelsiers scars stay in the same way that kaladans brand stays?
Basically yes. Your Soul is formed by the way you see yourself and Kaladin did not see himself as a free person until the end of book 4 so he did not change and for Kelsier, well the scars have become integral to how he sees himself so they are part of him.
I think his arm scars are like residual self image. Just like how Kaladin still has his slave brands
***Rythem of War Spoilers***
Until after his 4th ideal. Even though he apparently could have fixed them earlier like The Lopin's arm growing back.
Kaladin finally didn't see himself as a slave & Kelsier still see's himself as the Lord of Scars.
It's part of his Spiritweb / Identity.
My head canon is that when he climbed through the Well / Perpendicularity from the spiritual realm, because he was Invested his body reformed when coming back to the Physical realm. Similar to how the fused can form a body with Voidlight and leave a physical husk behind each time.
Kelsier was always someone who used people around him for what he perceived to be right. I think you can sort of see early on who he really is, especially given the things he is willing to do as part of book 1 in addition to the other hints you get of how he acted before the events of book 1. He is perhaps one of the most complex cosmere characters.
Alyx's reason for disliking Kelsier reminds me of why we all grew to hate Walt in Breaking Bad lol
Listening at 48 minutes > the hate on Kelsier are unfounded. I think you’re forgetting how broken the Skaa, Marsh, Vin, society, Lord Ruler; he was a by product of his world. His motives after leaving his mortal bounds are now for broken gods and worlds
Secret Histories 2 will be from the perspective of Dalinar as a Infused reading scout reports as he prepares to invade other worlds for Odium.
The definition of good in the sentence "Hemolurgy is good now because Sazid is in charge." (Audiobook listener I am sure I got the quote and spelling slightly to very wrong)
Good: not going to make you a slave to a god whose only purpose is to ruin everything including but not limited to your life, the world and everything on it.
You just made me re-listen to Secret History. My feelings on Kelsier are so damn complicated. Let me sum them up:
🙃😶
Omg... Kelsier is going to be the Shard who wants to survive
That Shard's Intent is not directly related to surviving. -Eric
Alyx visibly hates every milisecond of talking about Kelsier lol.
My late brother's favorite theory was that the host was a lower case survivor of hathstine. Since Kelsier set free all of the people who were there before destroying the pits.
Also, are we sure that the ghost bloods ultimate goal isn't to create opportunities for Kelsier to punch shards.
One more thought. Do we know for sure that Hemalurgy works how we think it does? Could it be used to attach investiture to someone without actually killing someone? I'm probably being too paranoid, but it was worth throwing out there.
This is most likely the case, Kelsier’s end goal is to punch every vessel after his death, I would be surprised if he hadn’t punched Rayse before or during RoW
I just found out about these podcasts! Finally! It was about time i shared my Passion with people
Hyped by the Animorphs reference
Guys your reflections on ours favorite revolutionary give me one more reason to let off loud my hot, probably controversial take on our today's subject.
But first some thoughts on motivation, I sincerely think his goal is greater cosmere without shard intervening in people lives. If it means cosmere without shards, so be it.
Mild malazan spoilers, but I guess you shouldn't care because they're really mild and only refer to one character... motivations, which are quite really unclear, and if it's to be to true I'm here to witness it till the end of the cosmere.
I'M HERE FOR IT
Kelsier is cosmere Shadowthrone
I have this sneaking feeling that Brandon’s building towards a full blown war between space age technology Scadriel led by Kelsier with and Roshar with more advanced fabriald for era 3. Considering that other planets are already looking at Roshar as an investure mine and era 3 is confirmed to have technology at that level
There was way too much in here to comment on but this was a fun one for sure. I have so many thoughts and theories but all I can say is that I have been HAUNTED by the "he was only a hero in those circumstances and could have easily been the villain if things had been different" and guys I am Terrified. 😅 I thought I wanted to reread Mistborn bad after RoW but this one got me Sweating for it. I am starting the reread in March though, as part of a year long Cosmere readalong I'm hosting here on youtube, so I'll get to sate that thirst soon but AHHHH. I'm also super proud I got the first Who's That Cosmere Character on clue 3! Can't wait till the next one guys, Life Before Death. 🦀 - Bree
I always thought of the firemothers and firefathers as living inside geothermal vents, storing heat in metalminds.
Harmony's Instant Noodles, available at a. spren city near you
I'm still not convinced he is a villain
I feel like Alyx's reason's for disliking Kelsier are the exact reasons why I love him.
Ghostbloods: Cognitive Shadow from Hemalurgy
I don't know if this question belongs here but why didn't sazed fix the physiology of the southern scadrians? I'm listening to the epilogue of hero of ages and sazed sees how the human body was pre ascension. Kinda looks like he ignored them or didn't know they were there (edit: lol you guys ended up talking about it and seem just as iffy as me)
The southerners were never changed. Rashek put them in the south as a controll group in case something went wrong with the northern population
@@Jinb-ut7bx is that true? If so then sazed certainly should have known about them. Why did he leave them to freeze (they did change because they adapted to the heat. Apparently 1k years was enough for that to occur) after he corrected the orbit and fixed all of the other people?
@@eaptan Likely because he is constrained by being both Ruin and Preservation. He is Harmony so he did this great thing to help the people he cared about but it had to be balanced by doing this asshole thing to other people.
I was waiting for this to drop
I wish Matt was on more of these.
Fortunately for you, he's going to be on two of the February episodes, which we recorded yesterday. He's been extremely busy with his work over the last year. I try to fit people in on the topics they are most passionate about. -Eric
Wild theory Kelsier seizes Honor's shards becoming Honor briefly causing chaos for Odium. Using both honor's and preservation's (remaining) investiture.
If a cognitive shadow was simply a copy, that would mean there would have exist an original at the same time, but the original is nowhere to be seen so that means it moves to the beyond instantly and the cognitive shadow stays in the world of the living. That would go against the believe that if you stay as a cognitive shadow, you don't go to the beyond.
I think Vasher understanding is wrong, the explanation he gives in RoW is not 100% true and they are not copies of the original soul. They are their original souls powered with investiture.
yo Weiry beard looks great my dude!
That weird WOB about opposite eye spikes, was it not just saying that Kelsier as the sovereign ended up with the eye spike that Vin removed from Marsh just before she ascended? I mean it makes sense that Marsh simply popped it back in after she misted out of there and I can't remember if Marsh had it back when he fought Elend but maybe shenanigans happened and it ended up in Kelsier's new 'sovereign' body.
I don't think that Kelsier and Spook would have needed to experiment with hemalurgy, and Spook specifically warns against it in his book. I think they had Marsh's help, as he did lots of spiking of people to steal powers in Era 1. Also, he had the book and gave it to Wax against Harmony's will.
Also, Spook advocated for asking the terminally ill and elderly to sacrifice themselves. Here's the quote from Bands of Mourning:
The Lord Mistborn advocated gathering the Metalborn who were elderly or terminally ill, then asking them to sacrifice themselves to make these … spikes, which could in turn be used to create individuals of great power.
He made a good argument in the book. It wouldn’t have been so disturbing if it had been easy to dismiss.
p. 111-112
Bands of Mourning Spoilers:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
The Soverign visiting southern Scadrial after Keliser's death in the Empire is akin to Jesus appearing in the New World after his crucifixion and ressurection, as told in the Book of Mormon. I can't help but see Brandon's Mormon background providing inspiration for that part of the story. Pretty neat.
Did keleser drain the bands of mourning to get the jugs of investiture that moonlight used in the lost metal. If so, could he be looking to get stormlight to charge the bands to give him the lord rulers power, The power of alumancy and feruchemy bypassing the need for a shard to grant him access to investiture.
i'll be back, once I finish all of mistborn
Okay, I took more than I thought. I'm back
I know I’m really late in commenting I just discovered this channel recently and am watching the videos out of order. I have a thought that I think Alyx is forgetting around the 54:00 mark. Kelsier succeeds! He saved an entire race of people not once but twice. Brandon makes it very clear the southerners were dying wholesale. They were on the verge of extinction. While I agree kelsier is selfish and has a very dark side and doesn’t do what most of us would do like the villain, I think he is also a great protagonist. Ian said it best he’s an anti hero! And he is a very effective one at that.
I get really stuck on this imbalance between ruin and preservation. Aren't shards infinite?
Crazy theory now, what if Adonalsium was never destroyed and splintered! What if he simply got bored and wanted to create a greater chess board so elevated men to shard level power to simply see what would happen. All shards have the ability to hide themselves. What if Adonalsium is just watching what men would do with the circumstance and Hoid is actually his Avatar simply mingling and just being his point of contact for the cosmere?
I think that Ian is wrong and Kelsier isn't antihero. Anti-hero is someone like Punisher in Marvel a person who did a lot of bad things but have a good reason. Kelsier is more like anti-villan. He can do good things, but his reasons are very, very bad
I'm absolutely mostly pro Kelsier lol. The hate on him is quite unfounded imo.
I think Kelsier got hooked up on that Shard juice and is now looking for another hit of it.
Think about it what happened to the last person that hold a Shard (or part of it) and survived?
He later went to become The Lord Ruler, a "God Emperor" he got addicted to the power.
Kelsier is probably the same after tasting godhhod he might be trying to get a hold of another Shard
And what Ian says makes sense. That Kelsier tells the ghostbloods that his current body is just an avatar because he is so much greater
Because Kelsier _believes_ he is a god and this form of his is just temporary until he can get to hold a Shard again and thart would be his "real" form
Mentioned in the Way of Kings... Well that will be an interesting reread for the readalong I'm hosting. We're at The Final Empire now
I clearly need an era 2 reread...
I think the status of Kelsier is dependent on Brandon's intent of his moral place in the story narrative. I do not see Kelsier's personality as evil. It was his ignorance that caused harm. His personality is somewhat the opposite of Taravangian. The more knowledge Taravangian obtains the more evil and selfish he gets. I think the more knowledge Kelsier gets the more altruistic he will become.
Man I really need to do a mistborn re-read
Me, sees title
Me, *laughs maniacally in noble killing”
Brandon did state that if a different person had picked up the shards it could have been Discord instead of Harmony
I mean preservation/survive does it matter? We see what leras does to elend with a knife, so are his actions on roshar all that different when you extrapolate the scale
Need to revisit this after Yumi
This is the Goals Can Align podcast