Hemalurgy | Lost Metal Shardcast
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- Опубликовано: 23 июл 2024
- It's time for a Mistborn Shardcast! We have learned a lot of new stuff of Hemalurgy in The Lost Metal, so let's talk in extensive detail about those two chapters, and then talk about Hemalurgy implications for the future!
This episode has Eric (Chaos), Evgeni (Argent), and David (Windrunner).
Chapters:
00:00 Introductions and Show & Tell
4:18 Hemalurgy Fundamentals
16:08 Partial Hemalurgy Spikes
1:03:25 Ars Arcanum
1:55:08 Trellium
2:11:41 Other Thoughts
2:17:50 Who's That Cosmere Character
Here are some of the other episodes and videos we referred to in this podcast:
Hemalurgy 2018: • The Hemalurgy Table! (...
White Sand Omnibus: • White Sand Omnibus: Ne...
Our Brandon Interview: • Mistborn Era 3 Title, ...
Black Smoke / Midnight Essence: • Midnight Essence and N...
Harmony: • Harmony | Lost Metal S...
Secrets in Stained Glass (our Mistborn actual-play): • You're Cordially Invit...
Thumbnail by pekgna: / cnw84otoktc
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Come talk with us and the community on the 17th Shard Discord: / discord
Want to learn more about the cosmere and more? The Coppermind Wiki is where it's at: coppermind.net
Read all Words of Brandon on Arcanum: wob.coppermind.net
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Send your Who's That Cosmere Characters to wtcc@17thshard.com
#cosmere #mistborn #brandonsanderson 
Развлечения
‘Sometimes you just say things, and I’m like ‘Cool Evgeni’’ is such a hilariously undercutting burn
It's so strange to me that Khriss presents Marsh as an ancient figure when she is presumably much much older
It makes sense as the writings we have seen are not notes meant for her but for the general public (reader stand ins). The most likely in world example of someone reading the ars arcanum would be a worldhopper visiting a planet for the first time.
@@connerwallace4997 Also, Khriss probably doesn't want the reader to know her long, involved history, for fear that someone would start hounding *her* the way she does other knowledgeable worldhoppers.
Trauma / snapping discussion and me silent screaming “like how they beat the Spren to near death before pulling them into the real world!”
Yooooo you are on to something. Very interesting
Ooh good point.
The last Shardcast episode I watched started with a tequila shot break, and it somehow didn't bode as chaotically as the beginning of this one does.
We're going to get "ethically sourced" and "humane" ads for hemalurgic spikes aren't we?
'Certified consenting donors' are compensated for their contributions to our Hemalurgic acupuncture products - 'Spikes-R-Us'
They just need a Kharbranthian doctor to certify that their “donor” is going to die anyway, or a Skybreaker to certify that they committed a crime 40 years ago.
The commodification of metallic arts is 100% the most interesting thing that's set up for Era 3 in my opinion. I look forward to the Malwish being fleshed out and the Discord stuff, but the spikes and medallions becoming proliferated will allow for a lot of interesting premises.
I feel like Era 3 will introduce it, while Era 4 will take it to the extreme with full on cyberpunk, futuristic, body mod dystopia.
@@robmack519 I am so excited for full on cyberpunk Scadrians.
One way i can interpret the "hemalurgic decay beeing a thing of the past" is that maybe its just about them having refrigerators now so they dont have the maintanece of switching out the blood(or the Steak) and so you can just put a spike in a jar of blood and have it frozen without you having to check on it.
According to WoBs, it's fine if the blood is clotted or whatever. You can just seal a jar of blood with a spike shut, and it'll be fine indefinitely.
If extreme ranges of emotions can snap individuals, I feel like there should be an extreme roller coaster called "The Snapper" in the 3rd era.
Lol, it takes you down the first drop, around a corner, and stops in a dark alleyway. Then employees with clubs come out and just go to town on you. 100% snapping success rate!
I do in fact, remember the identity field that was an absolutely hilarious episode😂
I think it's possible that the reason inquisitors got tired was because of Ruin taking control and talking to them so often, without the active mind control/telepathic communication Marsh might not be tired all the time
I remember the identity field! I still like that theory.
God knows imma devour this episode
1:46:00 You guys were talking about how trying to Compound with Hemalurgy doesn't work and how its probably like Vin trying to use Sazed's Metalmind; the Identities don't match since the powers are from different people and so they don't work was so insightful that I ended up telling my brother about it.
And we figured out how Marsh (probably, maybe its something else for him) does it.
Unkeyed Metalminds. If you Allomantically burn an Unkeyed Metalmind while having the Feruchemical ability to use that metal, I don't see why that wouldn't work. If the problem is that the Identities don't match because the powers are from different people, then using a Metalmind with no Identity should work, that's the solution!
Also, Sazed as Harmony banned Compounding via Hemalurgy. So he might've made an exception for Marsh.
@@justas423 Where are you getting that idea? I don't think that has ever been stated or implied.
The thing about hemalurgic “commands” reminds me of the magic in the Eragon books. You can do magic without speaking a spell in those, but it’s much more likely to go wrong, so they typically use words to limit and focus the energy. I guess this version is a little more mental but maybe a little similar.
34:40
I always thought that the reason nobles were unaffected by the mists was because they would already have been snapped. I always thought the mists were only snapping people and not investing them or giving them powers they wouldn't have had otherwise
to me it seems impossible for the society of scadrial to have only the nobles go through a traumatic event that would cause someone to snap. I believe every Sca misting and mistborn snaps through 'normal' life. Thus the mists would be granting powers
@@connerwallace4997but don’t the nobles specifically try to snap their children while ska just have a bad life that can snap them
👍 I had been looking forward to this episode.
"Ruins Scadrian magic system" took a sec for me to double check.
2:33:13 That's my comment! And I stand by my effusive praise :)
Snapping feels a bit like a Planeswalker having their Spark ignite for the first time. A Spark can ignite via trauma, near death, deep meditation, or even a strong enough emotion.
When you went on the tangent about compounding, this is what I had always thought the unavoidable part of hemalurgic decay was about. The power granted by hemalurgy contains a tiny bit of the dead person’s identity, small enough that you can still use the power but it add resistance and makes the power less efficient. Then with compounding it’s just more sensitive to this resistance and the mismatch in identities causes it to fail.
david either get one hours of sleep and hour or gets incredibly stoned before every episode 😂 zoom in on him for awhile he is blasted
Hemalurgee should be the person who recieves the powers
25:00 More preservation in everybody or on average?
44:00 I'd say that people are more likely to buy the corresponding artificial spike, if they are already mistings or ferrings. Compounding is just too useful. Especially if you need to be a natural allomancer to compound.
50:00 I would bet a lot of money that gold feruchemy will be the most valuable spike.
58:00 By that logic giving spikes non-Scadrians would have a different result.
1:11:00 Allomancer Jak - the Koloss spikes were in an aluminium box and still worked after decades
1:19:00 That raises a question. Could you convert Demoux or Felt into inquisitors? Do they have old-style soul?
1:28:00 That raises the question what will happen to hemalurgy after Discord will have risen
1:36:00 Kandra probably have the courage to take a spike through the eye
1:43:30 This makes far more sense if the contamination is caused by the wrong allomancy. That is the result of compounding has a hybrid identity, hence becomes unusable. That is natural allomancer + feruchemical spike -> can compund versus allomantic spike + natural feruchemy -> no compounding
1:52:00 I am afraid I need to point out that those who fell victim to the mistsickness didn't need to snap
1:56:30 This sounds like Palm used a gallows with a rope attached to her current spike
2:00:30 Then Kandra and humans are different. Otherwise why wouldn't she use multiple Trellium spikes?
2:06:00 Shallan took her anti-herald knife through an oathgate. So the answer seems to be that it works.
2:17:30 That is what Ishar will do. He'll spike the surges out of incarnated Spren.
"That is natural allomancer + feruchemical spike -> can compund versus allomantic spike + natural feruchemy -> no compounding"
I disagree with you on this, @oneukum . I think the issue would be the same either way. Either way, the Allomantic Power would see the Metalmind being burnt as not sharing its Identity.
Got the Cosmere Character from Clue #1 and it was cool to see how every clue reinforced that I was right.
On compounding:
I might be wrong, but someone who is twinborn cannot compound with someone else’s metal mind, correct? So, if a hemalurgist attempts to compound gold with powers from two separate donors, it would be a similar scenario, yes?
A twinborn fuels their feruchemy with their allomancy, but a hemalurgist is attempting to fuel donor 1’s feruchemy with donor 2’s allomancy.
The identity of the feruchemy and the allomantic abilities need to match. (I think.)
My main question is how much of the change of hemalurgy is how much of the change is Ruin no longer pushing in the world and how much is Ruin’s subservience to Preservation. I wonder if Sazed became Discord, and presumably Ruin’s no longer subservient, how much closer to era 1 would hemalurgy become if at all.
I feel that ruin pressing on the fabric or scadriel broke down certain individual’s souls and created “cracks” in their souls which made their identify less coherent and then multiple spikes could be used without identify interference.
damn the first time I got the Cosmere character first than anyone in the show
Even when Evgani has a bad take its a great take ❤
Speaking of a toll on a body driving it to be sleepy, what about whenever Yumi inhabited Painters body?
I'm still thinking that Hemalergist compounding always had a trick, and it's just that when the Inquisitors made themsevels compounders in era one, they were directly under Ruins control who could guide them in performing the necissarly trick around this problem.
carnage immediately i love it
Stabby stabby
I feel like the reason you can't compound anymore is because you are compounding the identity as well, so the now powers you use the more isn't is there. If it's not strictly your identity then it just doesn't work. And the reason it used to work was because Ati ruin used the weakened really to scrub the identity off the spikes enough to compound them. And sazed just doesn't know how/won't do that.
One benefit of medallions is that they are not permanent, but maybe spiking and unspiking yourself repeatedly has negative consequences for your soul. Medallions trade power for flexibility.
The thing about Brandon's answer on Hemalurgic decay is that even in blood it still slowly decayed. I think the implication is that they now have a perfect method whereas blood was an imperfect one.
A couple notes: first, I seemed to remember Inquisitors having longer lives from the books, although that might have been from the perspective of a character who didn't know they were replaced. But I found a paraphrased WOB on how long the lifespan of an Inquisitor is: "It depends on the powers they're given. Some burn up quickly, and others are extended. In general though they do tend to have slightly longer lives. Since Marsh has the missing bag of atium he's going to be around for a while." So, they do generally live longer.
Second, though, is I'm certain I remember that the entire mechanic of snapping was changed. I think there was a scene where Wax was thinking back to his childhood, and something like when everyone turns 13 or whatever they go to this ceremony and see if they have Allomantic powers, so there's no trauma involved at all? It's so odd that I don't think that I just made that up. I can't find it in the Coppermind or WOBs, though.
32:18 It occurs that that could be a method of Investing someone in an emergency. If you know the bind point for, say, stormlight intake, and you were on, idk, Komashi, or somewhere, you could juice up the Radiant with that charged needle and let their healing factor do all the work. Or maybe as a method for strengthening a Cognitive Shadow?
2:17:31 *soul-capturing knife intensifies*
1:06:04 Clearly Allomancy is a lot more common than Feruchemy. In era 1 the mists snapped people "pushing them over the edge" but no such thing happened with feruchemy. I feel it is straightforward Evgeni is commenting on this. Maybe it is just due to how much more common allomancer potential is but it does not feel that simple.
The ethical use of spikes reminds me of the breath situation. Maybe rulers will pay subjects to have their “vestibules of investiture” removed as a patriotic act. It could be used for their military or for a monarch like in Warbreaker.
i think the way you make a compounder is by having somone storing identity in an unsealed metalmind while you spike
their ability out of them.
can the soul be healed after being spiked a little (the non lethal hemalurgy (mentioned in lost metal)) if so do you have a way of mass producing spikes by spiking someone and then healing them and spiking again and again
Well, we know that a Radiant can heal soul wounds with Progression, and hemalurgy works on any world. I believe there's a WoB that gold feruchemy can also heal the soul, assuming the spike didn't steal your feruchemy.
so steel inquisitors live longer than regular people, i know that came up. also it seems like steel inquisitors had linhpins which uped how many spikes a person could have semms like the limit before harmony was 4 so it only changed a bit but we don't seem to be abel to make linchpins anymore, this could be what khriss means as external help rather than meaning a shard.
Era 3 shopping will be unlimited. Discord applies no limits! #FreeRuin
I’ve always wondered why they couldn’t do a special “super spike” similar to the bands in which it could steal the entirety of a mistborn’s or feruchemist’s powers? Maybe with an intent like Nightblood and steal the whole investiture
Maybe its possible. But one the of the rules of hemolergy is that you have to stab them in a very specific place based on what you are stealing.
Thumbnail credit/source? Doesn't seem to be in description.
Ah, oops, it's there now. Thumbnail by pekgna: instagram.com/p/Cnw84OtOktC/ -Eric
1:24:56
"Me twerks!" - Chaos, 2024
I'm sorry, I don't know why that made me laugh, I'm immature XD
Y´all think that the way of "coding" hemalurgic spikes to grant allomantic abilities might be similar to the way one transfer Stormlight from one sphere to another?
Like as you are stabing the person you could play the beating rythm one can detect through bronce burning to code the Investiture as it charges the spike?
You wouldn´t even need to do it all the time it might be enough to just do it with the last person and then that small bit of "Coded Investiture" might also be able to overwrite the rest thats already in the spike
Now I want to ask Brandon if a person
1. used a hemalurgical spike to become a feruchemist
2. stored that attribute in a metal mind
3. removed their spike
4. inserted a new spike keyed to the same attribute, but from a different donor
Would they be able to draw from the metalmind? Basically, is there a bit of the spirit of the donor that gets dragged along that somehow keys the attribute?
On the topic of hemalurgic decay I always thought that 1. coating the spike in blood was never a perfect solution it helped but was not perfect, 2. the spike loses power at an exponentially decreasing rate such as you lose most of the power in the first day of a spike being out of a body, 3. the process of inquisitors hammering a spike through a body into another is almost instantaneous but not quite and since spike lose power exponentially that small moment out of the body is what causes that decrease in power.
PS. I could be totally wrong in all of these points but based of my reading of the books that's what it seems like to me please reply with any arguments ill try my best to get back to you.
Does hemalurgy have to be done with metal? Could you use a spike made out of a gemstone?
I asked once, years ago, and got RAFO'd. I am not sure where I stand on this, I could see it go either way.
if you can steal non inverstiture related traits with hemalurgy, you could theorically kill kaladin and spike yourself with his chronical depression and PTSD. I wonder what metal one would use for this.
If the god metals of avatars can be different from each other (to any extent), then does it mean that their tones/rhythms will also be different?
My guess is that they will have the same tone but slightly different rhythms.
I always assume the way he changed it was they just got snapped as soon as they went into the mists. Could be wrong though
Haven't finished this yet, and I am sure this is not the direction you want to go with the discussion, but I feel like Steel feruchemy posed a lot of problems for Brandon as a writer. Obviously when you add in compounding this would become a larger problem, but infinite speed is just impossible to handle. At least some of the steel inquisitors would have had that combination but never really effectively used it. We only see Steel speed used maybe a single time when Elend is attempted to be spiked at the start of book 3. Has Brandon ever mentioned why he essentially ignored this entirely overpowered ability inquisitors would have? We only finally see just how strong Steel speed is when Bleeder uses it, at which point I just scratched my head wondering why it was never used so effectively previously. And Bleeder couldn't even use compounding!
On the limit on the number of spikes: god metal required to use more? Trellium is in era 2 the only god metal we see being used as a spike and it does weird things!
Could a person using a Duralumin Spike steal a Nahel Bond?
That thing would be terrifying to a Radiant fighting a Hemalurgist
Like not only would they kill you if you lost the fight. They would take your Spren
But then what? Does the Hemalurgist now have to follow that Radiant´s oaths?
Or would they be "unchained"?
The problem I have with intent an hemalurgy is...What happened with spook becoming a Pewter Arm, a piece of a sword broke off after passing through a thug?
Probably the Intent was provided via Ruin, who made that happen and was controlling the guy who did it. It's been a while since I read Hero of Ages, though. -Eric
If Ruin could exert pressure enough to change aspects of Hemalurgy can we just say he did the same to Atium so that only Mistborn could burn it?
That way we don’t need an Atium retcon. Especially because the retcon implies Feruchemy Attributes exist for every godmetal alloy
Imagine you have the potential to be a coinshot but haven't enough investiture to be one, you could take your own investiture with a hemalurgic nail and then invest it with pure door re inserted in yourself and become a full coinshot? would you be weaker than a natural one? cause there would be no identity miss match here
Have you guys ever had a Gamma reader on the show?
Well, beta readers usually also gamma read too. -Eric
@17thShard I ment to say Beta. Haha
Oh, you should check the acknowledgments! You might recognize some names there... So short answer very much yes. -Eric
@@17thShard Awesome! You might know mine as well. Hahaha
my brain hurts :(
So we just aren’t gonna talk about the new hemalurgic constructs the weird furry creatures in TLM? lol
Yeah, we did skip talking about those because we didn't have a lot to say. Maybe we can do a Hemalurgic constructs episode sometime. -Eric
@@17thShard ahh okay just thought y’all forgot about it hehe
*Eric makes "joke" about how he didnt think podcast would go in this direction x20"
At this point that is the expexted result its not that kooky and zany...
You guys talk in circles.