Why did Huberman endorse Susanna Søberg's bad science?
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- Опубликовано: 20 мар 2024
- About a year ago Andrew Huberman introduced a Danish biologist to the world, naming her the most important expert on brown fat and cold exposure in the halls of medicine. She had written only two papers on the topic, and only one in a reputable journal, but Susanna Søberg quickly became a household name to ice bathers all over the world who were looking for scientific backing for their icy dips. I was pretty excited by the credibility that Søberg brought to the table, but when I started actually looking at her famous paper in Cell Reports Medicine, things stopped adding up. Her claims about the underlying mechanisms of how brown fat burns calories were so far off the scientific consensus that it was jaw dropping. Throughout her paper she repeats time and time again that her instrumentation is not on par with the gold standard, and that her results should "be taken with caution." She kicked off a cold water swimmer from her study when he didn't produce enough heat, and worried it would throw off her results, and in the conclusion of her paper she straight up admits "we cannot conclude whether winter swimming per se results in increased cold-induced thermogenesis." All of this to say, after reading her article, I really had to wonder how it got published in the first place.
But that's not even where the problems stopped. Shortly after her appearance on The Huberman Lab came out Søberg left the scientific world altogether and started an online training course where she sells her video certifications in cold water swimming for $2500 a pop. This is the very definition of a conflict of interest. How are we supposed to believe in scientific results when the scientists directly profit from a positive signal?
The article in Cell Reports was hardly the only case of Søberg conducing bad science. Recently a comment on the crowdsourced science watchdog PubPeer noted that another study of hers--this one on binge drinking and liver enzymes--had nonsensical data. Somehow a graph that was supposed to have 8 data correlations only had 7. It didn't make and sense.
All of this to say, while Søberg might be a great person to encourage people to jump into ice water, her scientific claims aren't based on the science she purports them to be.
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As someone who does autopsies, I can tell you that adult humans have an insignificant amount of brown fat if they have any brown fat at all.
Maybe she’s one of his girlfriends?
A few times I’m sure
Clearly there are transactions between them...
Absolutely, my brother. He did the same thing with the Belcampo meats lady, her ads were all over his podcast for a while
HAHAHA 🤣 *respectfully
Great job 😊 If you fact check Huberman's claims you'll have material for a LOT of videos! 😁
I'm going to have a few Huberman videos coming up. I also did one a few days ago--an interview with Derek Beres which you might like.
These days, fact-checking is often like something straight out of an Orwellian novel. The naive truly believe the ‘science’ as presented, and will vehemently protect the scientism consensus. Society wasn’t built to protect you. It was designed to exploit you as a form of livestock. Woods for the trees.
I can see the wisdom in the story of the 'Emperor's new clothes' now, once that you start seeing it, it becomes shocking how pervasive it is.
I will keep an eye out for your Huberman video, all the best.
It's giving me a bit of an existential crisis. It feels like every person I once thought had something going for them has turned out to be a fraud. First Wim. Now Huberman.
@@sgcarney... Lex Fridman
Honestly, when people get used to be "creators", they can't stop at the point they should. They keep going even after that they run out of the subject they knew about. Huberman was sharing very good information for very noble intentions. Once you reached a point, you need more research and you need more of your own time to double check someone else's information. If you have other things going, you may make short cuts. Especially when your new "discovery" is very pretty and attractive :).
Others, who solely rely on their RUclips channel have to "create life changing" information to keep the money coming. Authenticity and reliability suffers.
Lex is a good guy, who is naive when it comes to human nature. You can't be friends with Netanyahu and Palestine street merchants at the same time. You can't support democracy and human decency while you being friends with Jared Kushner (he is rooting for the demise of your Palestine street merchants, it will create an investment opportunity for beachfront properties).
Constant online presents are exposing the flaws of people on it more than before. Especially when it takes a long time to figure out that you need to move on. I liked Rebel Wisdom. I miss it, but David Fuller did it so well. Hopefully he found his new, authentic calling. He moved on before he started desperately trying to force something. I hope his new life and creative enquiry is just as authentic as his old project.
People also very mob like and don't like to see the truth about their "heroes". It is not the story of the "Emperor's New Clothes". There, people started to face the truth. Here, they rather stone those who dare to see. Humans are very tribal. These new tribes are different than our old ways of bounding to each other and hating others. We pick sides the way unhealthy, narcissistic families behave. Not something constructive.
It is an existential crisis for humanity.
@@sgcarney... Lex Fridman
Honestly, when people get used to be "creators", they can't stop at the point they should. They keep going even after that they run out of the subject they knew about. Huberman was sharing very good information for very noble intentions. Once you reached a point, you need more research and you need more of your own time to double check someone else's information. If you have other things going, you may make short cuts. Especially when your new "discovery" is very pretty and attractive :).
Others, who solely rely on their RUclips channel have to "create life changing" information to keep the money coming. Authenticity and reliability suffers.
Lex is a good guy, who is naive when it comes to human nature. You can't be friends with Netanyahu and Palestine street merchants at the same time. You can't support democracy and human decency while you being friends with Jared Kushner (he is rooting for the demise of your Palestine street merchants, it will create an investment opportunity for beachfront properties).
Constant online presents are exposing the flaws of people on it more than before. Especially when it takes a long time to figure out that you need to move on. I liked Rebel Wisdom. I miss it, but David Fuller did it so well. Hopefully he found his new, authentic calling. He moved on before he started desperately trying to force something. I hope his new life and creative enquiry is just as authentic as his old project.
People also very mob like and don't like to see the truth about their "heroes". It is not the story of the "Emperor's New Clothes". There, people started to face the truth. Here, they rather stone those who dare to see. Humans are very tribal. These new tribes are different than our old ways of bounding to each other and hating others. We pick sides the way unhealthy, narcissistic families behave. Not something constructive.
It is an existential crisis for humanity.
@@sgcarneyDon't ever learn more about Princess Diana! She was a master.
@@tmtb80 Huh?
Dude had a bad friendship and made it his life’s mission to bring people down
Very interesting. The little difference in BAT between Wim and his brother was illuminating. Thanks for the video 🙏🏼
My pleasure! That study was crazy
Wow. I was initially interested in her but when I dug into it I was like wtf. After her appearance on Huberman I thought she'd have something to add but nothing of substance materialized. I have to admit I was surprised since (at that time) I expected more from a guest on Huberman since he always claimed that he rigorously reviewed and vetted the research of his guests. But her information that I saw was fluff so I forgot about her. She seemed like a pretty face and nothing more.
I swim in winter, I'm 60, for 20 minutes. Best thing ever. Everyone should try it. Minus 5 C is pretty much the best time to go. Under ice is real cool. Caution: don't exceed 30 sec under the ice. After 20 more minutes drying in the wind brutal shot down of circulation from feet and hands, sudden and almost total loss of control but can be forced to walk home and hold clothes with arms. Must get to above 0 C in the minutes following this, movement is necessary to give heat to body to distribute to vital organs.... 15 C is enough to be safe. I usually pass the first 5 minutes getting the wood to burn in my stove, then the heat takes over. 2 hours of bliss follows. Never ever got any problem with this procedure of mine, done over 30 times. BUT: I gained 10 pounds of fat that year and started to get fat since. My body reacted by making me a fat suit. I tough I would burn brown fat, but it's the opposite. Or something else got into the process... maybe invisible penguins abducted me or something...lol
Really interesting. Would you be open to having a 15 min interview with me some time? Following up on what other commenters said, it does seem that cold might actually make a person larger as the body opts to insulate instead of ramp up energy expenditure. I agree that there are benefits to cold exposure. I just don't like the abuse of science that Soberg and Huberman make to get there.
This actually makes a lot of sense. I remember my friends from the high school swim team complaining about how swim gave them an extra layer of fat (they swam in fairly cold water). They felt like they had a lot of muscle and it was hidden under a layer of fat.
This seems like a pretty extreme protocol. Have you historically tracked your waking body temps? My guess would be that the extreme cold exposure drove down your metabolism. This happened to me due to cryotherapy. I don’t have science to back this up just personal experience but would be an interesting test to stop this practice, measure waking body temps before and after stopping cold exposure and see if they rise when you stop.
@@OmSahaja I did stop during covid for obvious reasons, but the fat stayed, and now in summer I can't stand the heat. My body remembers the cold though, and in winter I can get outside undressed and it takes about 6 seconds to acclimate to any temperature, instead of minutes. At night it's about 50F in the bathroom and I don't bother covering myself up. It is really surprisingly fast. I am struggling to stay under 200 pounds.
@@OmSahaja yes it is extreme, but safe if followed. I never took my waking temp. Sorry
Thank you so much for this Scott Carney. There is so much endless BS that gets published it boggles the mind. It isn't hard to see it historically either. All sorts of horror stories have come from bad science being treated with credence: thalidomide, DES, lobotomies, and on and on and on. My point here is that few people with no skin in the game EVER take a hard look at peer review and question it. But peer review is rooted largely in collaborators with whom the authors all have a vested interest in not burning bridges. Then there is dirty funding (pharma companies, for ex), academic momentum of scientists who are more deeply invested publicly, and emotionally in their own research, who will never change their minds. Seriously, this woman had a sample size of less than 20? it is absurd that anyone should take this research without a bigly dollop of skepticism, especially since her results skew so far from prior research. There is gobtons of BS out there (bad science). I have seen all of this first hand. Not to mention legions of historical examples. I wish I had an income, I'd join your channel even if all you did was call out lame papers that get blown WAY out of proportion.
100%. And it's strange because I love my cold water swimming and breathwork, but I don't think we need to make bogus scientific claims about causation to explain why I do it. There are so many pseudoscientific grifters out there who want to tell you they are THE experts on something even though they don't have anything real to back it up. I'm happy soberg enjoys swimming in cold water. Can we leave it at that and stop charging lots of money to tell people to do it?
Great video Scott!💯 thanks for doing all this research for all your viewers.
It means a lot. Thank you for being here.
Good job 👍🏻
Strange that Huberman vouched for this so strongly.
I wonder what he has to say about it.
On a side note, ice baths and cold immersion remain amazing, and and greatly increased my cold endurance.
I wonder what it is, if not BAT.
Cheers.
My guess is that BAT is a bit player at best. And the tolerance is mostly mental. As for huberman…keep an eye on this channel next week.
I'll be on his channel for sure, thanks!
I'm not convinced that the cold endurance effect is purely mental. I went from wearing an insane amount of layers to very few.
Yeah I know, "anecdata", to quote Huberman
Scott Carney
Thanks much for posting.
So what's your opinion on cold exposure therapy. Benefits?
I don't agree that quitting a job (potentially temporarily) makes you "not a scientist anymore". You can be a writer while not actively writing. If you earned the PhD and done the research, especially if you worked in the field, then you are a researcher
That’s a fair point. She did switch career though. She was in active research, now she sells ecourses based on a bad interpretation of her scientific work.
Great work, Scott!
Thanks for listening
Perhaps BAT is Dumbo's Magic Feather.
What is clear is that something impactful is working through cold endurance. But the mystery of why it works looms as large as it ever has.
I agree. There are other mechanisms at play.
Nice vid. Theres a summary at the description. Thankyou for your work sir..
You're welcome
Is cold showers and cold plunge provoking the same or similary results, because I think there must be some misunderstanding here
Man, you are really obsessed with Hubermann. That's some good devotion to going after somebody. Kudos to you
Please play the clip of Dr. Chatterjee saying that an icebath will prevent someone (everyone?) from ever getting sick again. Thanks.
I posted the thumbnail that said exactly that. Did you miss it?
@@sgcarney that appeared to be a Hoff quote that was maybe an episode title. The previous image was a list of topics to be discussed in an interview. No, I did not hear him say that an icebath would prevent all sicknesses.
Just like on your channel you have a thumbnail/episode title that appears to be you giving instructions on how to start a sex cult. Now, I don't think that is what you meant. I think that it is referring to the topic of your video. But,?
Any indication that the info Huberman, not his guests, is questionable as well?
novonordisk makes ozempic/wegovy fyi (re: conflict of interest)
The paradox of all of this "cold burns fat" discussion is there's a very reasonable argument to be made the other way. Bergmann's Rule (1847) is not accepted by everyone, but I'd argue it's a much more solid theory than more cold = less weight. Wherever you live, just drive north toward the cold and report back how many rail thin people you find. Not many. And yes, you might increase BAT and gain weight simultaneously. Both things can be possible. 11 min walk would outperform any cold plunge every day.
Yes! I should do a video on this. The body can protect from the cold in two ways: 1) ramp up heat production through various metabolic and physical processes and 2) insulation. In almost all cases of animals that live in high latitudes they opt for insulation over energy expenditure. It also probably LOWERS your metabolic rate over time. Look at Wim Hof as a prime example. He has gained a LOT of weight in the last few years despite frequent cold exposure.
Maybe a video of you interviewing herself and Andrew Hubernam together would work...right?
A bit less of the "she said, he said" approach. You could mention WH along the line somewhere, who know's.
Lets wait and see! Always debate is better but that is not Scott's style. I hope this is enough for her or Huberman to reply
I'd be open to an interview with them. Sure. But Huberman hates being fact checked (he told me so) and my feeling is that Soberg probably does, too. But maybe I should reach out.
I just found your channel through a link someone shared. Is your content regularly looking into scientific claims such as this? I ask because there is a lot of garbage being published in journals nowadays.
He's like the Joel Osteen of science
Great video. Keep up the good work, sir.
Wow, so interesting, you sort of assume the podcaster has at least looked at the scientific papers before they endorse their guests views. I Have developed a rule of thumb about paying attention to doctor/scientist podcast guests, if their book is available in my local library for free they are more likely to be genuine vs. they are selling a course / book, they are maybe in it for the money. Though definitely not a foolproof guide.
This is very true. But in Huberman's case we sort of did assume this for a while, no? Because he has that whole intro of making science available to people.
In this case, though, he was on the editorial board of the journal, even. So he not only had a look, he had a hand in her output.
Yep , sorry didn’t make it clear, I was referring to other podcasters. Being from the uk I don’t listen to huberman he is way too ’American’ for my tastes. Or maybe if you’re American you would say too ‘bro’.
I actually heard her on Doctor Chatterjee podcast, I would have hoped he would have looked at the study. Or because huberman has given his seal of approval everyone else blindly follows?
@@cw6778 Ah, I misunderstood. Sorry.
A highly-ranked journal can be a seal of approval, I guess. Although it could be a red flag that the person then leaves academia to make stronger claims and sell classes, instead of pursuing the study of the subject with more rigorous controls, multiple variables, etc. It *should* be a red flag, honestly.
And yes, even as an American, he is way too "bro" for me. He found a way into the mindset bros set through some scientific credibility but then dropped the ball big, big time.
I would not mind, personally, if he made it about his protocol. But he sells it as "Huberman Lab," and starts each episode by claiming he wants to make science available to as many people as possible. And that is plain lying at this point. There's plenty of good podcasts actually bringing science to "the people" and none of them sell mindset "hacks" to get more subscribers. Literally, Science has a podcast where they discus research findings with experts. They would have asked uncomfortable questions. Huberman and similar people won't.
What's your opinion on Wim Hof's teaching? I have done 244 ice baths and am about to leave to do 245 after a sauna. I agree some of the claims are crazy like the wealth ones. However on the health side. I've seen people lose weight from Ice baths mixed with other lifestyle changes. I do it mainly to reduce inflammation and boost my immune system as I deal with 2 autoimmune diseases. Are you dispelling cold exposure benefits or her protocol? I also disagree with other things like her 11 minute comment. Many have shown 5 mins and up is great. Hmmm You are making me question protocols thoutgh, but not the therapy.
I've done a lot of reporting on Wim Hof lately. I think the practices are generally good, but no one should ever follow Wim's example on anything. The group is very cult like and people are dying because of it.
🙏
Winter swimming can be everything. 5 to 10 minutes at 5°C is bathing. The ice swimmers I know who loose signifcant weight during the winterseason make 10 to 20 km per week. Anything about warm up procedures and mealtiming in that study? IMO that's far more crucial than 200g more or less brown fat. As long as she is helping people anyhow instead of doing harm. it's ok IMO. We arent our brothers money keepers 😁💰💰💰
She might be doing harm by saying she has a “thermalist cure” fibromyalgia like she did today in her newsletter.
Huberman was on Rogan? Not surprising, given his questionable science claims.
yeah, it is what blew him up in the first place.
Its not even possbile to have an optimal time that is "best" for everybody. Whats the best time for a 100 kg male vs a 45 kg female? Too many variables, what temperature is used etc. That kind of reserch would have to be massive to find something that is optimal.
Exactly. And so the Soberg principle is meaningless from the get go.
Thanks for your honest breakdown of the science!
It helped with your canker sores if I remember rightly so it must have some effect on the immune system? Also FYI, you said energy expenditure increases from 5000-1000 kcal/24 which would be a decrease 😂 you read it wrong which I know you didn’t mean to as it states 500-1000 on the paper. Just messing with you. Love the work. Do you think soberg will give me a refund on her book which she is also profiting from😂. Keep up the good work.
I could well have read the script wrong--but the text on screen was correct. Otto Muzik's paper estimated 20kcal/24 hours and Soberg estimated 500-1000. But YES there is an effect from ice baths. My cankers did go away when I started doing these things. But I'm not making strong causal claims.
Interesting enough, science is never settled. I believe real scientists know this however claim the fame rapidly.
Regardless of how much data one claims to have. There are so many variables that can alter the outcomes of data.
Especially regarding human physiology.
Can someone summarize this video. I can’t do 20 mins.
Miss Goberg lied about the results of her research and made a career promoting cold exposure to burn brown fat without actual proof.
Huberman's become a pseudoscience/scam peddler. When he speaks outside of his area of expertise, he offers a lot of unhelpful and sometimes harmful, content. Avoid.
Conspirituality Podcast has a good episode on the anti-science shenanigans of Rogan, Huberman, & Brand.
He's only getting worse with time. A lot more is going to come out about him soon.
@@sgcarney Infuriating. It's bad enough when folks without uni ed decry science, but it really undermines legitimate science and health care when PhDs do it! UGH!
@@sgcarney lol well you called it. Guy looks like a sociopathic manipulative liar now
Gotta love your arrogant ignorance.
@@user-rn1ws5id8h If you have ideas and evidence to disprove "ignorant" claims made by the OP, by all means, do tell!
Since you haven't offered any refutation of fact, we'll have to assume that you're lashing out in unhealthy ways because you have big feelings about the subject and rather than engage in study to work through your cognitive dissonance, you only have personal attacks on strangers to offer.
If you'd like to learn how to engage in civil disccourse about evidence being presented, as a teacher of rhetoric, I can help you learn these skills. Additionally, if you'd like to learn techniques to manage big feelings rather than attack others, as a teacher of emotional regulation techniques, I can help you learn that as well. I've had a lot of success teaching these concepts to 9th graders-PhDs. Be well, friend. #StayHuman
What is BAT?
I thi k it's Brown Adipose Tissue (brown fat).
So, Scott, shouldn't the results matter more than whether the protocols are perceptually right or wrong? What would you say to the many people who have had a positive effect by following her approach?
This is actually an important question, thanks for asking. I believe cold water exposure and sauna and breath work are beneficial for many reasons (I have 2 books on them). However, Soberg saying that she has a science-based approach is laughable and is simply a marketing ploy to get you to sign up for her $2500 course when you could have, I don't know, just gone out and taken a swim in cold water or jumped in a sauna. The grift is in how she presents herself.
Easy to second guess research especially when the author dutifully remarks all findings, limitations and open questions for future work
...and then proceeds to NOT do said work but instead claims results the work did not find to sell very expensive classes.
There. Completed that for you.
Materialism is so incoherent.
The excluded member was someone who didn’t fit the criteria of the study, it’s a pretty normal process to select people based on criteria for your study
Dum dum, you give me gum gum
Huberman king of pseudo science?
He's becoming that way for sure.
So u hate Hof and Hubberman as well? You say they're frauds? 🤯
so much to say there. next week.
@@sgcarney fascinating
Wow, you seem a little jealous of her attention… maybe teaming w her would be best..
I think she should do better science.
Hello my dear. Please fix video my friendly. It close before I have chances four enjoi this lovely. Please make this four me four appreshiahin all humanitarians
6% difference in body fat is not significant.
I wonder what personal conflicts of interest exist between yourself and Huberman (and indirectly with Soberg), Scott. Are you on a personal vendetta against Huberman perhaps?
Huberman didn’t return your emails, invited you on vacation and then cancelled, and then yelled at you a little too loud?
You didn’t like that and now you’re trying to get back at him by attempting to discredit and disprove information that made him popular.
That hit piece you contributed to was cowardly. Its a shame you’re attempting achieve vengeance, in the process of which a man who contributes good to the world is slandered.
Be sure to include the link to your patreon more often and in bold next time. This way you could leech even more profit out of tearing another person down.
I believe I misspoke in the video. It was a 6% difference in total body fat-not a 6% difference between individuals. The numbers are on screen. There’s a big body composition change when you are 21% body fat and 16%.
And yes, I do have a Patreon. Last I checked it was ethical to get paid to work.
@@sgcarney the difference in body composition between 16% and 21% is still insignificant. Visually they are very similar. The difference in ability to lose fat is also identical. If not the same.
Making money off the downfall of a good person is quite unethical last I checked. Especially when one is motivated not because the other is wrong, but because they dislike the other person. Allowing a personal vendetta to take priority over the objective truth is disgraceful to your line of work.
@@liamhaslam8951 Do you even know what the difference in 16% -20% body fat looks like???
Trolling on a video you don't seem to understand while validating a Machiavellian Womaniser and one of his money making schemes at the expense of the professional credibility of Actual scientists who are authorities on the subject makes you the problem.
@@Solistastyle yes 😂. It’s not a great difference. Visually it’s insignificant, especially when members are sitting around the 20% mark. I will say a 6% difference becomes more pronounced the lower the comparing parties get. For example 10% comparing to 16%. But even still it’s not a massive difference, just more noticeable then 16% compared to 21%.
Machiavellian womanizer? 😂 that’s quite the exaggeration. And he is a real scientist! He has a PhD in neuroscience! And has conducted studies that have been published in many major journals!
This must be the most ridiculous content I've ever seen on RUclips. Calling someone who's actually done proper research in this subject a fraud. I'll dislike this video and report it. Horrible take.
did you watch it?
@sgcarney yes i did. Who do you think you are to ask whether Soberg is a fraud? You seem extremely narcissistic. These methods have helped so many people in different ways. Can't you come up with something better instead of breaking others down?
@@PolarSuntherapy Pointing out bad science =/= fraud callouts. Why oughn't any average Joe get to expose scientific papers that have little asterisks at the bottom of the page saying "we don't really know, so disregard all of this, teehee"? Why should her reputation play a factor here or are you already too much of a loyal believer to not treat her as an infallible deity?
@@PolarSuntherapyDid you actually understand it if you watched it? Were there too many big words for you?
The woman conducted a single study with 8 people, dropped a person who didn't fit her stats and is making money as an expert. The actual Scientist who is the expert said a lot of what she said was nonsense. She caveated her single study with a caution about it's own inaccuracy. And her study, was funded by the makers of Ozempic , a fat loss drug, who she also worked for, although she claims she is a natural therapy Dr. Each issue mildly shady on its own. Together, it's downright dishonest.
Why you hate Soberg? 😢She is a lovely woman who cares for society.
I dont hate her.
I like that she admitted she was cherry-picking with the data and warned people to be skeptical of the results. A lot of the papers that Huberman is most enthusiastic about, the authors say that the results were not statistically significant or were inconclusive. If you are a scientist and suddenly people are paying attention to your work and offering you money to fund research, imo it's not unethical to accept that even if you know the reseach hasnt shown what they are excited about... But it is unethical to start making unfounded claims, even outside of the studies, and it seems like she started doing that 😢
@@sgcarneyit will be very hard to talk to people who refuse to hear you. They are not even capable to listen to your valid concerns. It will be all emotional blaming and insulting you, because they don't want to process something very simple: they like something and/or somebody and they don't want to change their minds. Period. Facts will not change it, denial and ignorance win over reason. It was always like that. Galileo spent his last 9 years in house arrest because truth was inconvenient.
Truth is truth. No matter how inconvenient it is. People who like truth have no problem with that. People who can't stand being wrong will hate you for it.
@@sgcarneyit will be very hard to talk to people who refuse to hear you. They are not even capable to listen to your valid concerns. It will be all emotional blaming and insulting you, because they don't want to process something very simple: they like something and/or somebody and they don't want to change their minds. Period. Facts will not change it, denial and ignorance win over reason. It was always like that. Galileo spent his last 9 years in house arrest because truth was inconvenient.
Truth is truth. No matter how inconvenient it is. People who like truth have no problem with that. People who can't stand being wrong will hate you for it.