Attia and McGill are WRONG About Deadlifts and Squats.
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 20 фев 2024
- The recent video by Peter Attia and Stuart McGill on the risks of deads and squats has not escaped our attention. In this video, Sully reacts to Peter and Stuart's positions point-by-point.
WRITTEN AND PRODUCED by Jonathon Sullivan MD, PhD, SSC, PBC
ASSOCIATE PRODUCER: Damian Lang
EXECUTIVE PATRONS: John and Val Rosengren
ELITE PATRON: Dr. Kurt Van Scoik
RESOURCES:
asbmr.onlinelibrary.wiley.com...
www.sciencedirect.com/science...
www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/...
link.springer.com/article/10....
www.mdpi.com/2411-5142/1/2/254
link.springer.com/article/10....
www.sciencedirect.com/science...
journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Fu...
osteostrongatx.com/wp-content...
journals.lww.com/ajpmr/abstra...
asbmr.onlinelibrary.wiley.com...
www.ageright.net/uploads/1/3/...
asbmr.onlinelibrary.wiley.com...
www.proquest.com/openview/1db...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25559...
OLYMPIC PATRONS:
Bill Stanton,
John Slaughter,
Jeffrey Barefoot,
Dr. Bert Lindsay,
Laura and James Welcher,
Shauna Bourassa,
Fred Barnes MD,
Stephen Gross,
Matthew Gross
CHARTER PATRONS:
Grady,
Emily,
Mark,
Warren
POWER PATRONS:
Rod Hargrave
Peter Gardiner
Bar Reehuis
Rob Schillinger
John Carrigg
Tae Ellin
Bert Lindsay, DC
Sascha Goldsmith
Bar Reehuis
Emily
John and Val Rosengren
Sven M
WELCOME NEW PATRONS!
DL C
Phillip Brown
Hans Schmidt
Karla Perez-Gangi
Smeagol Sullivan
Neil
Nancy
Tom Gaskell
Bob G
Rainer Boldhaus
Patrick Ireland
Jeffrey McManigal
Todd Kamins
Bernie Hunt
Will
Bob Parr
Lars Bergstrom
Carole Ludlum
Corey Gilliland
Frank
Richard
Donita Joseph
Joe Green
Marie M
Jim Shelton
John Baldwin
Brad
Brent
Jimmy Bass
IMAGES:
Jonathon Sullivan MD, PhD, SSC, PBC
Lesia McQuade
BECOME A PATRON! www.patreon.com/greysteel
FOLLOW GREYSTEEL ON FACEBOOK:
/ greysteelstr. .
GREYSTEEL WEBSITE AND BLOG:
www.greysteel.org
OUR BOOK:
www.thebarbellprescription.com
I AM a masters competitive powerlifter. I'm nearly 45 and been training for nearly 10 years. I've competed with, and help train, people into their 70s. Even under competition requirements, the suggestions by McGill are wrong (no surprise, knowing his schtick, and his mouthpiece on RUclips, SquatU). So glad to see you covering this so brilliantly to let people know what I immediately knew upon watching that segment!
I listen to every one of Attia's podcasts, they are usually fairly good, but that conversation was just extremely disappointing - a bunch of bias, just-so anecdotes and lack of evidence for McGill's claims, which usually doesn't fly with Attia, except it seems he has already given himself permission to stop lifting heavy because for some reason he already thinks it's deleterious. Yes, at face-value it might seem like loading up any joint is not good for it, but the great thing about science is that it can teach us unintuitive things and show us where casual assumptions are incorrect. All joints, including vertebral joints, are constantly in a flux of degeneration and regeneration - in fact, the two major bone cells, osteoblasts and osteoclasts, constantly break down and build-up bone in a process known as "remodelling". Small amounts of damage from work (not macroscopic trauma but microscopic wear) causes signalling to rebuild, just as with the hypertrophy of muscle that more people are familiar with. We wouldn't say "don't stress your muscles, you'll injure them" because we know that working them is responsible for making them stronger. It's no different with joints, including the spine. Of course, things like arthritis can progress at the same time your lifting progresses, and people can get the wrong idea re correlation vs causation. The very process of ageing is degenerative, so shit happens over time, but one of the best protective measures against those effects is strength training!
I really hope Attia gets some push-back from some of the great folks he knows in this space and he walks his statements back in a future podcast, because that sort of crap can really scare people and do a lot of disservice to his audience. So many people already have so many mistaken assumptions and fears around lifting heavy.
Great comment. Thanks for taking the time.
Wow! I guess no other comments are needed. The balance of intellect in layman's language.
You started training at 35 and you’re still ok at 45, yeh that’s not all that surprising. How many 45 year old powerlifters who started training at 20 don’t have pretty bad shoulders and hips?
@@HkFinn83 Before I was ever into lifting I was into martial arts and skateboarding. My left knee needed an arthroscopy a few years into lifting, and you could make the assumption it was from the lifting... if you didn't know I was taking massive impacts from skating and kicking stuff my whole childhood. I was told to stop lifting of I would need a knee replacement. I said screw that and rehabbed to a squat PR in 22 months and then went on to a national record and national and Oceania firsts in my weight and age class. So has it harmed my knee or has it kept it healthy? How would you know unless you stuck a scope in there every month for a few years and then compared it to a few years of lifting?
Do my shoulders and hips have issues? Yes. Would they have issues at this point if I never touched a barbell? Maybe, yes, maybe no, but I definitely wouldn't be as fit as I am/have been, since I have to stay around my weight class to be competitive. What else might happen to a 20yo who doesn't lift? Suicide is unfortunately a high probability, and I've found the mental health benefits better than antidepressants, as do many others.
I'm not saying you can't get some injuries and get a bit beat-up over time, esp if you are competing, but there is too much assumption of causality and fear mongering around powerlifting, simply due to the nature of it. If you push to compete in any sport you will injure yourself eventually, that's just par for the course, but even here, the injuries are not as bad as in running and team sports. Guys do knees and tear pecs and other muscles all the time and they are back on the podium with bigger numbers in very little time. You don't see a lot of ACL tears in powerlifting.
Finally, I know more people who have been lifting for 30+ years and are still is good shape than people who started young and are busted up at middle age, but that is admittedly more a function of the ages of people I know and when they started. Tomorrow I go help train two people in their 70s who has been lifting since the about 1989 and they don't have any severe issues. One had a hop replacement, but who's to say he wouldn't have required one at around the same age (or maybe even younger) if he never lifted? Who's to say the lifting hasn't' helped him heal from it and keep strength and mobility around it?
Note also that, if Attia lifted heavy for a long time, he has a base of strength and mass that can probably be maintained at some level with stuff like single leg exercises, walking/running backwards on a trail, etc. I mean, he gets paid for it, so he doesn't have time constraints, really.
But as I have responded to untrained adults who tell me they don't want to use weights, if you could already do 8 rep sets of below parallel pistol squats and muscle ups, you wouldn't be asking. You'd already be a gymnast. That's the base level of strength required to really gain anything from such a workout.
If you can't, then barbells and the big compound lifts are the best tools you have to gain strength. IME they're the only thing that can actually be transformative, starting from the lowest baseline or any other.
Fist time I ever deadlifted 500 pounds was in 1982. The last time, this morning at 64 years of age. I watched McGill video while laughing last week.
I'll be 62 next week.
I just pulled 410lbs for a set of 5
I Deadlift once per week.
I managed a 455 pull a yr ago.
This yrs goal is 500.
I learned about Starting Strength method at 58yrs old.
I dont feel pain.
I have had a quad pop 2 times it heals.
I tore a groin muscle pressing really bad. It healed.
I have just added the sled 3 times per week.
I dont plan on stopping anytime soon
GJ, sir! 😊
DL's my favorite exercise.
sleds are a great tool
Bad idea.
You're not 62. Send videos or it didn't happen 😂. Jk
Good on you. There's hope for me yet.
@@fiscolorado656 all my lifts are posted on RUclips.
Just click the big red T.
As referenced in your comments my wife was diagnosed with Osteoporosis at the beginning of her lifting experience. A year later and again a year after that her Osteoporosis had disappeared, You are careful in your prescriptions which are heavy but "not heavier than they need to be," As an 11-year client with Sully I can say my backaches have virtually disappeared. While I have yet to lift 405. I am happy for now at age 77 with 375 on the deadlift,
That is awesome for both of you, and an inspiration too 🙏
You are the MAN!! This 56 year old PL last year salutes a 375 DL at 77....That's AMAZING brother
Wow! That’s awesome, well done to you both!! Keep going!
Lemme ask you old farts something.? Are those 405/375 single rep maxes or 5 plus reps maxes at 7-8 RPE?
Outstanding results, sir! I'm happy for both of you.
Thanks for the accurate content. I am 61, started lifting at 57. I focus on the compounds and doing them correctly. I never push through pain. My ego does not drive my intensity.
I echo that sentiment. There really is no need to go all light and fluffy because we are no longer anticipating facial hair. That said, the whole train to true failure, 'ass to grass' approach probably is not going to be my mindset when I go to the gym.
I have now taken a 900 lb deadlift and 1000 lb squat PR off of this year’s goals. Thanks for saving me Dr. McGill!
😆
Nice.
I mean... that doesn't sound unwise
🤣😂😅😆
Ur probably younger… when ur in your 50-60s u will feel the damage from that type of lifting… longevity is the goal
I am a 61 year old female and I looooove deadlifts. I won’t ever stop doing them.
Im 66 and I coach a bunch of 60 and 70 year olds according to the Barbell Subscription. There is no way they want to stop deadlifts and squats. It has given them the freedom and confidence to try anything without the fear of injury and pain. I wish I had discovered you Dr Sullivan 20 years ago when I started this profession. Respect!
I’m a 61year old plumber . I do squats and deadlifts . For moving water heaters up and downstairs. I do pushups for when I crawl under house. I don’t go no heavier than 300 pounds. Even though I could do 500 when I was a young man .
What do you think would happen if you put 305lbs on the bar?
@@Francesco-cj3oi I would probably be just fine. 😂😂
I watched much of the original video, lost a lot of respect for Stuart McGill. So appreciate this rebuttal. Totally bad logic, “DL is bad for pro powerlifters, so no one should do it.” Been following Barbell Prescription for 5 months now - 59 yrs old, recently set a squat PR for the first time in about 6 years - then broke it a few weeks later, cuz that’s how the program works! By the way, we all get tweaks - my latest tweak, which kept me from deadlifting properly for a month, didn’t come from lifting 322 on the DL, it came from making a mistake on my accessory Good Morning with a 90lb bar!😂 Lesson learned, finally got back to a 4 rep set at 322 today, so glad to put that in my rear view mirror.
To be fair, 300 lbs is still a decent weight. Plus, it sounds like alike you have a fairly physical job that would interfere with recovery if you’re continuously lifting as heavy as possible
OMG THANK YOU!! I saw this video a few weeks ago and because I'm resting a back strain it made me think maybe at 63 I should stop dead's and squats and I had wasted my money on the Barbell Rx book I just received. Your response video makes me feel much better about getting back into my work out and get off my ass and read this book. I retired from the FD after over 40 yrs of service and continue to respond as a volunteer and as an instructor. Watching your videos defiantly helps me keep up with and pass F/F's 1/3 my age and chase be chased and wrestle with my grandkids Thank you so much for all the info you guy's put out please keep it up,
You should go with your gut feeling...you'll pay for continuing squats and deads.
If a friend or family tells me I shouldn't squat or deadlift without solid reasoning, I will send them this video. Thank you.
Not sure what nonsense this is. I've deadlifted and squatted for years, but the risk vs reward for older people is not there. I'd like to see the video author show deadlift and squats for a few years at his age and see how he fares. All it takes is one injury to derail his health. You can get plenty of alternatives. It's shocking this video author thinks he knows more than a renowned expert like McGill. The video author is a clown with this clickbait junk.
@@mementomori29231the video author is one of the world's leading experts in strength training the middle aged and elderly.
@@mementomori29231I deadlift every once in while but I find myself doing kettlebell swings for the most part....as far as squats I've replaced them with hill sprints
@mementomori29231 LOL the benefits of these lifts are greater for older people than younger ones. Get out of your basement and into the iron gyms.
@@mementomori29231you are out of your element. It would have been better had you not commented at all.
I m 60+, had back pain in my 40s, been deadlifting for the last 12 years, gotten strong, no more back pain.
I am really pleased that you have no more back pain
back pain is commonly due to weaker glutes, not something wrong in the back itself. Glad to see its been corrected by lifting instead of surgeries, medications, etc.
My iliopsoas (hip flexors) went "twang" at 35 lifting a 1st gen 55" tv off a wall and back up. Suffered w back pain Dr's and PT's couldn't fugure out. At 40 hired a personal trainer to put on as much muscle as possible before it was too late (as an rn, I worked w frail old ppl). 2 weeks after he taught me light, strict deadlifts, pain went away, and I figured out what had happened at 35. Reciprocal inhibition works!
Thanks for this. I saw this discussion when it aired and I too found moments sloppy. You've clarified a lot here, and I hope Attia sees it and responds.
I started lifting two years ago at age 76. Using a trainer I've worked up to 2x10 squats (195) and deadlift (195) and now concentrating on full range of motion (bench and squats). When I started bench I could barely do the bar due to an old shoulder injury. Now I can bench 145, dumbbell press 50, incline fly 45 all for reps. I've had one or two minor tweaks doing stupid stuff which I now avoid. When you're getting started you need a trainer. Yes, there is some good information on the interweb but you have to be a discerning consumer and simply watch someone lift, while entertaining, isn't very useful from a learning perspective. I've learned more about my body in the last two years than in the preceding 76. I do need to work OHP into my program.
I believe Attia still does deadlifts for bone density but not “powerlifting” - without axial loading there is NO preservation of bone density and he’s mentioned this many times too so we need him back to address specifically bone density preservation. He’s emphasized that one should be able to deadlift just above your body weight to serve this purpose and that won’t injure you
That's true. I did hear him say this too, He said he's not chasing max lifts anymore and doesn't care that much about the weight. I suspect a lot of younger lifters damage themselves pulling more weight than they should, or taking performance enhancement stuff that ends up damaging their joints and tendons under excess loads.
The key to doing these movements is to use a weight you can handle and not go from max lift when you go for a max lift. Make sure that you can do it at least one time with proper form.
While a respected kinesiologist, McGill has been in academia too long. He may have “clients” in the real world but he also has a professional reputation to defend. He’s adopted an easy-does-it approach based solely on professional athletes, people who routinely push the edge of the envelope and do damage as a result. As an athlete of aging, I rely on moves like the deadlift, the squat and the overhead press to maintain my strength, mobility and conditioning…and I never go for PRs. I’ve been hurt - who hasn’t lifting heavy things? - but never seriously and never without gaining (in the long run) the long term benefits of strength training. Kudos to you, Sully!
Well said. I am currently working through McGills book for health professionals, Low Back Disorders (I’m a doctor and a coach too) as I’m coaching a few people with back pain who are really stuck. McGill says at the outset, he sees the people who’ve been failed by everyone else. He’s done some fascinating research and makes some good points, but sadly comes over very badly in interviews. Every one I’ve watched he quotes the same stories and sounds slightly sanctimonious. But he is knowledgeable in some things.
I’m actually the best Master 3 (60-69 years old) powerlifter in my country and let me tell you you’re damn spot on Mr Sullivan!
I think I'm more likely to get injured running backward up a hill than I am deadlifting. This might be because my eyes are on the front of my head; if I try to run backward I'm likely to trip and suffer a macrofracture of my arse.
Right? The mere thought of running backward, let alone at an incline, is really weird.
Retro-walking is a big deal and well studied. It's a great warm-up for the quads, prevents falls for the elderly, and good for treating arthritis
Despite seeing that video I’ve continued with squats & deadlifts.
You see at almost 71 & recently diagnosed with end stage heart failure ( I had no symptoms my Apple Watch alerted me to atrial fibrillation) - lifting heavy 4 x times a week reassures me that I’m still strong & I can still do things like anyone else. I’ve never had an injury & I’m continuing to achieve PBs. My cardiologist was “astounded” I can do so much and declared it was likely my fitness had saved me. ( I should be breathless, have swollen ankles and having difficulty walking)
So I’ll be doing deadlifts until my heart gives up!
Thanks for the important info👍👍👍
Bringing Dr. Barnes in for his clinical insight on this topic was a brilliant move...
Checkmate
I am 62 and I am so tired of hearing "experts" tell me my fragile body can't handle deadlifts. It is by far my favorite lift and hope to keep it my favorite lift into my 90's. My top set is usually 405x4 to 6 reps followed by a protocol I changed to called 10-minute block. This mentality by "influencers" that our bodies are made of glass is absolute nonsense. I really enjoy your content and always look forward to the next video.
@Mathilda2zero that was just a general comment, I know they more than influencers but their arguments were without context.
thank you for your reply
Big mustake. Margin for error is too big.
Another big Thank You! When I saw this video last week, I was really down in the dumps. I'm recovering from a quad strain from squatting, and my deadlift has been struggling. I was left saying "What am I doing to myself???" I'm 54 have been working the program since last Sept. And generally been doing well. However, I wondered if my inexperience was letting me wander into dangerous territory where I'd end up seriously hurt.
I was so waiting for this video! Thanks Sully!
i was also very pleased to see this video. Sully had an excellent reply.
I saw the Attia/McGill video originally, and thought it was a scare tactic. Between your 93 year old deadlifter and another 78 year old female deadlifter who holds records, you got this right on. What you hit the nail on the head on is that the population that McGill deals with are competitive powerlifters who have pushed their body too far; most people who are using the correct technique and are doing it for health will not get injured. This video should get infinitely more hits then that scare tactic video. Thank you for your service
71 years old and have been doing squats and deadlifts following Starting Strength principles (Have automatic refills of The Barbell Prescription) for nine years. After 40+ years of back and hip pain (concrete work) I have been pain free for almost nine years. I'm sticking with what got me here. Thanx, Doc.
When I was 62 I was circling the drain.
I used two canes, and bought a walker.
3/2016 I read Starting Strength and then The Barbell Prescription when it came out.
Humans are not physically normal in the absence of hard physical effort. - Mark Rippetoe
I was able to lift 3x a week. As I got stronger, I had to scale back on my heavy sets. The critical IMPORTANCE of squats and deadlifts is hard to overstate.
The release of growth factors triggered by heavy sets of squats and deads transformed life.
I had already been doing "recommended exercises" to the point of overtraining injuries before 3/2016. The problem with these exercises as a class is dosage, they don't trigger a strong enough response even if the volume is raised beyond the threshold of overtraining.
I've read Peter Attia's book and like most of what he has to say. Dr Johathan Sullivan is correct on Deads and Squats. As we age we are more sensitive to volume, which ironically makes us more dependent on intensity to make progress.
Incredibly important that you made this video. Many times I see influencers where advice is given pertaining to THEIR body or experience or fear. I've been mountainbiking for over 25 years, and was told many times "its dangerous". My reply remains the same: "walking is the future...just not now". I greatly respect Mr. Attia, but I very much disagree with that video (I watched it a few days ago) . I've crashed many, many times over 24 years and my hips and back are still bomb-proof. When asked how I"m still riding this hard, my answer: barbell and moderate to heavy lifting off-season, great sleep and food. Thank you God.
Some slightly older videos have Peter cite heavy squats and deadlifts very first in his list of the most important things to do for exercise for longevity
if you watch the actual video you'll see he has changed his mind due to the reward to injury risk ratio for older lifters
I do respect Atttia for admitting when he's wrong and explaining his positions clearly. A lot of what he says is based on his personal experience so we shouldn't really generalize that. For instance, he's big on steady state cardio to improve VO2 max and does not doe HIT, others say HIT is better at this. From what I can tell, there's a significant genetic component in human performance and fitness as well. We shouldn't ever be making decisions based on what ONE influencer says.
I await the debate. This was a polite, thoughtful rebuttal.
for squatting, you have to be able to get out of a chair or off the sofa - body weight mechanics. You can work up from there, anybody can. For deadlifts, you have to pick things off the floor with two hands - anybody who can pick a sack of feathers off the floor two-handed can do the mechanics. You can build up from there, anyone can.
very well written
Shout out to Fred for coming on and sharing his experience. Good video Dr. Sully
Thank you Sully & your crew for noticing that video and responding. Having just started lifting a few months ago, that vid had me questioning my training and wondering if I ought to call it quits on squats & DL. Your refutation reinforced that I can keep going, that I just need to take it slow, keep working on good form, think long-term value, and try to always dose heavily on common sense. Kudos for providing an alternative point of view!
Appreciate and value the time you’ve taken to address this topic.
I'm 56 and have been lifting heavy for 15 years. I did compete and at 48 did a 605 deadlift and a 500 squat. I've never had a serious injury. I don't compete powerlifting anymore, but can still squat 2x bodyweight and dead over 2.5x bodyweight and feel great. My hips only hurt when I run.
Go gettem Doc!❤
@16:10 Oh, I know the answer! “Sufficient strength” is when I’m able to do the session my coach assigned me, but just barely, with enough left in the tank to recover in time for the next session.
I'm a middle-aged person who's thinking through these issues, and forgive me if I think it's simple. Be persistent in the sense of working out (at least a light workout) OFTEN. But don't overdo it, because you're past your prime in a lot of ways and recovery isn't what it used to be. Don't obsess over heavy weights and personal bests, just focus on decent form and not hurting yourself. Give every group plenty of recovery time and take recovery days as needed. Stretch and sit in the hot tub if that's all that's in you today. Come back tomorrow and hit it hard if you can.
This came up on my feed out of the blue, and what a great job on the topic!
Thanks for some great analysis.
Priceless that your background has pics of you and John Claassen. Well played Doc... well played.
I was a serious ameteur cyclist for about 10 years and had to quit due to back pain. - I found two things to be truely effective to help the pain. 1) Sleeping on the floor (hard surface). 2) Deadlifts. But what is more important, deadlifts did not only fix the symptoms it just fixed my back completely. Pain went away after about 1-2 weeks. - I thing sub maximal deadlift singles (with slow eccentrics) to be the most effectice general strength builder for the back a whole, bar none. If one limits one selft to over hand grip, and has the patience to build up over weeks and months your back becomes solid as a rock. - And when it comes to my neck issues, building strength seems to be the answer there as well (but this might be very individual though). I have used resistence bands to build up strength in the back of my neck and the sides (not the front, i.e. extensions). This has greatly increased the joint stability in my neck, because the cause of pain and other side effects was probably lack of stability in the joints. - At any rate, totally agree. These guys mean well but they are comparing apples and oranges, i.e. category error like you said.
17:50 That which can be asserted with anecdote in the absence of controlled data can be refuted with anecdote in the absence of controlled data. This is brilliant and it’s what I was thinking when I first listened to Attia and McGill’s video about this. There’s no basis to assert that deadlifts or squats are inherently bad or dangerous. My clinical experience suggests the opposite is true.
Deadlifts are great but many of us have experience of pushing them too hard and hurting ourselves. Aged 56 and still learning when not to be an idiot! In the full video Attia talked about his history of back issues. He uses a belt squat machine. Elsewhere Attia says he still deadlifts but only 315lbs or so. Which for most of the generation population would still be a lot.
My takeaway is to carry on deadlifting consistently and keep refining my ability to not be an idiot!
Right. "Don't do stupid shit" is always a good philosophy.
I'm so glad you addressed this. Their logic, as a physical therapist and lifter, was driving me crazy!
THANK YOU for this. I saw that vid with Attia and McGill and something seemed off. I went and did my middle-aged deads anyway.
I can lift my 5 yr old grandson high into the air, my posterior chain is super strong because I regularly deadlift! Smart people saying dumb shit!
"That which can be asserted with anecdotes in the absence of control data can be refuted with anecdotes in the absence of control data." Needed to replay 3 times to get the quote exactly right. Holy sh*t that was good!
I followed attia and really cringed when I watched that cast. There is so much obviously wrong with that. Including the idea that if an injury can happen, don't do it. Well, then, even zone 2 training in some people could cause a heart attack, so I guess we shouldn't do that either. I also feel they were not responsible to who listens to them. All they did was give people who hesitate to workout, a great reason not to. Thank you so much for this incredible practical reaction video.
These statements by Attia and McGill only apply to serious _competitive_ Powerlifters, such as those pursuing record-breaking attempts (e.g., Ed Coan). This has nothing to do with the vast majority of people using the Squat and Deadlift to improve their strength.
Agree, but nowhere do they make that clear. Attia himself is not a serious competitive powerlifter, and he's asking, in part, for himself. So the video is _not_ passing on clear information.
I'm confused.. So when McGill says to choose between playing with your grandkids or deadlifting, because you CAN'T do both, is he only talking about competitive powerlifters grandkids?
@@GreySteel Bingo. I also thought the commentary went back & forth from competitive to recreational lifters without clearly stating so.
Thank you for this, I listen to Attia all the time and this was so confusing. I thought because his own back injuries, he has this view. I’m 51 female and do heavy deadlifts.
Subscribed. Thank you for the information!
I AM FRENCH CANADIAN, ALL MY LIFE I DEADLIFT AND SQUAT I CAN I AM 70 AND DO A LOT OF COSS COUNTRY SKIING AND I AM VERY GOOD AT THAT AND EJOYING LIFE THANK YOU FOR YOU VIDEOS.
EMMANUEL CYR QUÉBEC CANADA
Thank you so much for doing this video. Strength coach of 15 years with over 10k sessions with clients. Embarrassingly new to starting strength and the barbell prescription but my clients are absolutely doing fine with these movements despite previous non related injuries being present and cant be happier! Its all about properly applying the principles you guys so carefully laid out. It works and keeps people's absolute strength at all skill and age levels with minimal risks.
These guys may have gotten to the point where they are comfortable saying it's true because they think it is. Either they are wrong about this or I am freaking Superman. (Hint: I am not Superman.) 53 y/o male. 6'2", 255#. I don't know my true maximums, but I comfortably squat 425, deadlift 525, bench 325. Myoclonic seizures. Thanks Sully, for calling them out in this video.
Edit to add: Former college football player, been lifting for the best part of 40 years (an awful lot of it done imprudently or worse.)
😊😊😊😊😊
I have watched many McGill interviews and I have noticed a pattern: He seems to be a people-pleaser because he will agree with the interviewer even though it contradicts what he said elsewhere. I suspect that had Attia said he thought DLs were the best thing ever, and every senior should be doing them, McGill would have agreed, and held up the same prop to explain why.
Stupidity can be pretty influential when it comes from generally smart, knowledgeable people, capable of logical reasoning and articulate speech. Thanks for the much-needed intelligent pushback. Well done!
You are correct.
I’m 54. Still strong. Still deadlift and squat.
Thank you for this rational response. That video by Attia and McGill was kind of infuriating.
I have been deadlifting and competing in powerlifting since 1987, I currently compete in strongman so heavy deadlifts are always in my training. Yesterday I did 590x2 reps. I am 59 yrs old and don’t have anything really wrong with me. Of course I don’t deadlift heavy more than once a week, I never have, but you can deadlift and squat heavy if you want
Love the video, I'm 63, I squat and deadlift regularly.
When he started talking about walking backwards up a hill I actually started to laugh. I couldn't help my self. I mean WTF. What is sufficient strength? Is it if you're strong enough to get out of your chair without help? It's amazing what some people will come up with / invent to support the narrative they're trying to push while ignoring anything which contradicts it.
Thank you for posting this response Dr. Sullivan. I respect Dr.McGill’s contributions to the field and own two of his books, but as PT with 30+ years experience and currently working at a Center of Excellence designated hospital for total joint replacement I was very disappointed in the many inaccuracies and non-evidence based information that Dr. McGill stated in the video with Peter Attia.
The algo brought me here. I squat, deadlift and do good mornings (ooh no, your neck!) all the time. I love them. I use proper form and I still hit PRs so I am getting stronger over time. My body looks better at 49 than it did at 25. I also look better than pretty much all the other women at my gym who are doing garbage sets and reps of BS low-weight exercises and wondering why they aren't seeing any progress.
Very interesting take on this video. I watched this talk about deadlifts and squats a while back, and it left me wondering exactly how applicable to the 'average' lifter this really is.
I thought your critique was reasoned, polite and answered all the misgivings I had regarding the presentation.
As a baby boomer, I go to the gym a couple of times a week, hoping to stave off sarcopenia rather than enter power lifting competitions.
Having watched a few of Peter Attia's videos, I get his recent reticence regarding deadlifts and squats. If he is to be believed, his earlier training schedules were absolutely ridiculous, both in duration and volume.
He does, elsewhere, make it clear that grip strength is an indication of how active you have been throughout life, and is therefore strongly associated with longevity, rather than advocating that octogenarians rush out and start performing 100kg suitcase carry, in the hope of living to 100 and beyond after a lifetime of gluttony and substance abuse.
However, you are absolutely correct when you point out that comparing mere mortals with legendary powerlifters is not terribly useful.
I have recently incorporated RDLs and squats into my routine, and, having started with modest weight - focusing on technique - I have made decent progress without pain or injury. These are both highly functional exercises, and, provided you don't go crazy - I haven't come across many 150kg grandchildren - there really is no reason to be fearful.
I agree with Attia in the sense that resistance training without D/L is better than no resistance training at all. However, in my anecdotal opinion there is no substitute for D/L.
Love your channel, I am happy to say that I am 68 years old no TRT no drugs never all natural, and this year I set a new PR of 405LB deadlift for 5 reps, 315LB squats 5 reps, and 205 bench 5 reps. I saw this video from Attia and McGill and right off the bat I said BS. Thanks for your take on this. The Old Man.
I watched both videos, I concur with your opinion, thanks for taking the time to produce a well thought out and researched response. Love your work.
I am a 61 year old powerlifter. Lifting for 20 years. Best deadlift in the past year 227.5kg and best all time 242.5kg. I do better, the more often I deadlift heavy. A few weeks ago I competed in the IPF European Masters. I met many, many people much stronger and older, than I am. Many of them squatting and deadlifting for over 50 years!
I am going to continue squatting and deadlifting until I die.
I'm glad you and others have addressed this video. I think Dr McGill was too broad in his indictment of deadlifts. It would've been great if someone like yourself had been included in that discussion.
I was someone who reached out in response to the damned annoying video full of anecdotal whitewash, thanks for this one.
I am continuing to follow my Greysteel/Starting Strength programme. I'd never touched a barbell before but after 18 months the benefits have been enormous, I have muscles I never knew existed and at 61, feel stronger than I ever did and I just pulled 350 for 5 last week.
You could injure yourself with bodyweight exercise if you go to the extremes. If we go down that road what are we left with to exercise?
These guys are keeping people from the only truly life changing exercises out there, for gen pop. These are the lifts that give people quality of life, especially as we age.
57 year old snowboarder here.
These guys truly make me sick for the damage they're doing. I know people who listen to this stuff, and they're debilitated as a result.
The logic these guys use is like telling people they shouldn't ride bikes ever, because competitors in the Red Bull Rampage get hurt.
Thanks, Sully! In a world of lies, you're speaking truth.
thank you for covering this. I am 64 and do deadlifts and I am always very careful. I watched that interview with Attia and McGill and was afraid to do deadlifts after that. So now I will continue to proceed with caution.
All of the things I was internally shouting at the screen when watching that video, you have perfectly stated here, but better. Very well said.
You raise some very good points especially with regards to frequency and dose. And let’s not forget other recovery formalities like sleep and nutrition
Sounds like a logical teardown of opinions, love your work Mr Greysteel.
This is amazing! I watched the video with Attia, who I think is generally an excellent resource and it gave me some pause. Thank you for the response and thank you for the humor.
I started really liking Attia and now I take everything he says with a grain of salt.
So many thoughts on that video, but something positive that came from it is I found your channel.
I feel like the whole point of the video is that top echelon powerlifters are extremely rough on their bodies, so you shouldn't do any exercises they do. Someone wrecks his body doing a 800 pound deadlift. So that means that reps on a 2 plate deadlift is a bad idea when my 1RM is 3 plates? I mean, have they ever heard of nuance? They are making very broad recommendations from top 1% of top 1% of top 1% experience.
I really like the play on the ground with grandkids at 80 idea. I know it's pretty much hyperbole, but think about the math. 80 year olds playing with grandkids on the floor means they would have their kid around 40 and their kid would have a kid at around 40. I know it happens, but when I'm 80 I'm going to be looking at playing on the ground with my great grandkids. I'm already playing with my grandkid at 50.
Thanks for the truth! I think McGill should spend less time bragging about himself how big and strong his hands are, and his grip strength, and spend more time reading and citing the relevant research papers, if any!
Your video is right ON!
Extreme athletes, such as professional power lifters, pro Olympic lifters, football players, etc… are doing things that are Extreme in order to achieve Extreme results.
But it is quite normal for people to just bend down and pick things up, or squat down and pick things up, which historically people have always done when farming and working the land, etc. So doing deadlifts or squatting on a normal nearly everyday basis is by no means an extreme thing. Especially if you aren’t attempting to do maximal fatigue or maximal loading ever single time you train. But if you don’t do those types of movements, you lose strength, ROM, and the ability to ABSORB forces! And THAT is the reason McGill had his hip replaced! He was putting forces on his body, and specifically that particular hip, and his neuromuscular system did not turn on adequately to handle that force. And done so in a repeated fashion.
The majority of people I see CAN’T absorb forces for crap, and that includes many athletes and even powerlifters. They just don’t know how to move their body correctly, and they don’t realize how much they are compensating for their particular weaknesses.
I think the bigger challenge with deadlift is that bad form causes most herniated disc issues and most of us never have been shown or guided on how to do a proper DL. Videos are okay but unless someone with some expertise is there to guide you and correct form, lifting hundreds of pounds incorrectly puts forces on the spine it cannot absorb. He is missing the real problem entirely. I DL'd with bad form with an already destroyed back (my video is on my channel of a viral ladder fall) and did a number on my L4-L5 disc causing severe sciatica with pain so bad I couldn't walk for a while. That was not a function of DL's it was a function of not knowing to engage my core, lock in my arms and keep the bar sliding along my legs and not out away from me. I learned all this AFTER the injury.
TL;DR version: He should teach mechanics and form.
Im 52. Squat daily. I set up the rack in my office. I use EWOT with it. Its amazing. I had to go slow in the beginning as knees and lower back had to grow into it. Now its easy and 0 feelings of "fragile" bones and joints. Its solid.
Nicely put. Thanks
Thanks for this. We starting watching the video you mention and just could not finish it as it was completely contrary to our experience with strength training using barbells. Barbell training works, with good training, and knowledge.
Thanks, Caroline!
That’s how you dissect a pair of experts who get carried away with their stardom. Awesome how entertaining you make it-thank you for restoring faith.
A very well delivered rebuttal. Excellent stuff. I started barbell deadlifting and squatting when I was 40. I'm 53 and I've been doing them ever since. They have always felt safe enough to me as long as you don't get too sloppy or too ambitious. It's only Hex / Trap bar deadlifts that have felt dangerous to me. The weight swings around more. There is less stability. That instinctively feels more dangerous to me.
Hi - I'm 61, inspired by your videos - i did 3 sets of 5 at 200 for parallel box squats yesterday, on Friday I'll do ATG pause squats with a lighter weight but to push ROM and improve mobility, tomorrow I'll do DLs at 285 - not that heavy, but good for me (I did 365 rack lifts last week)- I try hard to maintain form and my back feels better than ever. Who cares what those guys say? No risk, no reward
Interesting perspective, thanks. My takeaway from the Attia/McGill conversation was different than Dr. Sully's and wouldn't stop me deadlifting. I heard it more as a discussion of individual concerns and a valid critique of performance and ego-driven lifting than of the deadlift per se, plus Dr. McGill's preference for more "natural" efforts like backwards hill walking, one-handed log-lifting and pressing cinderblocks overhead 🤣- reminds me of my uncle who worked as a longshoreman for 25 years, drank beer, smoked cigarettes, and thought weightlifters were "insert your favorite non-PC epithet". I am now 65 and train deadlifts weekly, with one "heavy" day and one on which I do lighter variations like the RDL. My form is solid, I no longer go for the PR's I was still setting at 50 - 55, and I am not ashamed to pull off of a slight elevation - that spares load on my previously injured (not by deadlifting!) ankles, knees and lower back ( My hips are miraculously fine, go figure). By the way, I tried the walking backwards up a 20m garage driveway - it wasn’t easy, but the stability and strength that allowed me to do it several times definitely comes from regular, albeit sub-maximal, deadlifting and squats. Thanks to regular cardio, breathing and heart-rate were also no problem.
so in short Attia and McGill are wrong about deadlifts and squats because they are based on anecdotal evidence and do not consider the broader context of strength training for general populations. Attia's argument is based on his personal experience and the experiences of his clients, which may not be representative of the general population. McGill's argument is based on the idea that deadlifts and squats are inherently unsafe and contraindicated for general populations, but this is not supported by empirical evidence.
I followed Peter Attia and subscribed to his podcasts for a year. I stopped because his personal philosophy was that people over 60 will become increasingly frail and their training should focus on avoiding injuring (no PR's, no heavy lifts at low reps, no heavy squats, deadlifts, etc.) and trying to "hang on" to the strength they have. This is a self-fulfilling philosophy - if you train lighter, don't lift heavy, avoid bigger lifts, etc., over time you will definitely become weaker.
that's not his "philosophy" - that is the factual situation for older people. You are way more susceptible to injury and recovery can take much longer or may not occur at all. He's saying use your brain, not just your brawn. You might think that you have adequate warm up routines, impeccable form on ever rep etc etc, but when you're older, the day that you rush a workout may be the last day you lift. This is just a sad biological fact.
Funny because at almost 65 years old, I have found none of this to be true. Each year for the past 10 years I keep getting stronger, more flexible, with better endurance than the year before. The injuries I occasionally suffer from are no better or worse than those experienced by the younger athletes I train with and I don't take any more time to recover from those injuries than they do. I realize my training, nutrition and recovery protocols aren't for everyone, but ignoring what's possible for the sake of what's achievable for the majority of people, isn't helpful. At least not for those people interested in pushing the boundaries of healthy aging.
Arthritis- Contributors
Inflammation from bad diet, sleep, relationships and obviously no exercise.
I love to deadlift and squat so do my 70 and 80 year old clients.
I use the BC Strength T Bell. Such a versatile tool to my audience to progress at 2.5kg at a time.
Fight Sarcopenia
I love this video!!! So funny, such good analysis and gave this 40 year old dead lift lover and personal trainer a renewed sense of joy about this amazing movement!
I'm 58, stronger now than ever. Conventional deadlift 460, sumo 435. If i started lifting like a powerlifter in my teens would be on my way down. I want to reach 500.
Thank you for this! I struggle with motivation to lift as I shift my goals from PR’s to health with aging. Despite reading your book I found myself wondering about risk reward of these lifts as well as I have had issues with injuries. I probably just need to take a more measured/ lower dose of exercise medicine which is great news because I love to squat and deadlift!
Super extra special - 5stars :)
I´m 55 DL once a week squat twice,bench, press etc...+ lots of rowing on the RowErg - proper load management - inensity and volume is the key
A couple of years ago I responded to a survey from Peter Attia, one of the questions was about who he should have on the show. I suggested Dr. Sullivan, an obvious choice considering the show’s subject matter. Still waiting for that to happen.
I'm 60 and go heavy on squat and deadlift and I feel fine after doing them. But it's not like I do them 3 days a week. Deadlift once per week. Squat twice: one heavy day and once lighter day plus split squats.
I heard an interview with Stu McG where he said going too heavy on deadlifts for too many years was asking for a hip replacement at 60. Somehow the message morphed into no deadlfting.
I'm 62 and deadlift 100kg and bench 70kg. Not light, not heavy but enough to be maintaining all round fitness. Yes if I was deadlifting 200kg I would be pushing the boat out.
Soaking in this important rebuttal. I watched Attia/McGill's vd believing. Now I am 180degrees changing my mind. 56 osteopenia with aches in lower back, weak arms i definitely need to deadlift & squat. I haven't been as I let hardness weakness win. Reading other commentary has enlightened me to reasons why to do so, thankyou to you and everyone leaving comments.
You don't need deadlifts and squats. You need machines and dumbells you can handle.
Standing up and picking things up off the ground is for everyone. The issue I've seen with an older lifter I know is remembering and accepting you aren't 20 years old anymore. And that's ok, you don't need to be.
the last thing you need to do at 56 is to start deadlifting and squatting for the first time in your life
you need to be using your bodyweight only with a focus on unilateral movement, not weighted bilateral movements
once you can knock out a few sets of high rep lunges twice a week, then you can start thinking about adding weight via a kettlebell or dumbbell (handheld)
frankly, you never need to touch a barbell to achieve your strength goals
The "ASK ME HOW I KNOW" got me to click subscribe
Great response vid. Literally every human being on the planet ‘tweaks’ their lower back once in a while. If you strengthen your back with squats & deads you are almost certainly less likely to get a tweak taking a shopping bag out of your car.
Thank you for this video. Big name podcasters need to be held accountable so as not to get careless and sloppy with the information they disseminate