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I get that creatures from back then seem a joke today, but at it´s time juggernaut and kird ape where killer in aggro decks and juggernaut was also killer in early tron decks. Think about it what can do against a 2/3 on turn 1 back then ? And yes with a taiga that was a 2/3 turn 1. JUggernaut could be out as early as turn 2 in some decks (mishras factory + a land or 2 swamps and a dark ritual are just 2 examples). What can you do against that in old school. There is bolt and swords, that is it. Even terror turn 2 won´t help since it is artifact. You have to also take into account that removal came at a premium back then there where not that many good removal spells. So getting removal out of your deck so you won´t have any removal later when my big threat comes out by playing something you had to answer fast was leggit back then. As for tron, by turn 3 they could have enough mana to play 2 juggernauts with a killer starthand. Or a juggernaut and some other huge threat for 6 mana.
honestly i think #8 was a mistake, banning those cards only brought them more attention and hardly anyone was playing them anyways, I don't think they were racist so much as just not aging that well.
I play Goblins. I have only played Goblins in Legacy since 2012. I LOVED the Miracles Legacy years, as we had a 80%+ winrate against Miracles, unlike literally all other decks. Cavern of Souls -> Goblin Lackey. Go. Oh damn, you Swords to Plowshares my 1/1 Lackey? I play another Lackey and an Aether Vial turn 2. Go. Oh, you Terminus my three Gobbos? I Warchief into Matron for a Ringleader and reload my hand, attack you for 6. Go. You Terminus AGAIN? Oh well, I Matron into Ringleader (shuffling my library as a side, putting back my Goblins from the bottom into the rest of the deck), draw three, I attack you for 2, go. I had an opponent HARDCAST a *FIFTH* Terminus with a Snapcaster to survive (after using two Swords to Plowshares ON RINGLEADERS, because they couldn't keep up). They still died on my turn, because I drew Warchief and had a Mogg War Marshall and a Piledriver in hand... Ahhhh, good memories.
I'm absolutely shocked you have Sensei's Divining Top on this list. I get that it takes a while to properly play, but idfk about it being "one of the worst"
also a teensy tiny, itty bitty exaggeration to say that each top resolution takes 3 minutes to resolve. or that anybody would activate top after already arranging the top cards without the intention to draw one of those cards out.
@@DemonBlanka Right? I see that and I want it for my Bridge deck because anything that lets a creature tribal deck stack itself for Cascade effects sounds great.
Additionally, it's odd to call Top a fair card since it was never played fair, nor did players have to try hard to not play fair. Top is only a "fair" card if there's nothing that interacts with it. Even ignoring fetchlands, there are plenty of ways to shuffle/mill/scry/care about the top of your library. Top has a low cost which makes it easy to deploy and rearrange. It's also free to trade it in. Top may have been banned for being slow, but it wasn't popular because it was slow.
Back in the day, me and a buddy bought some Kamigawa precon decks from a store and played against each other for a pack of Avacyn (when Avacyn was new, got a good deal on the sealed decks). Long story short, his deck had Sensei's Diving Top in it. His pack for winning had a Griselbrand too. Top is and will always be good in every format. Or I have PTSD. Or both.
top was banned in legacy for power level. its ability to soft lock the opponents plus mentor loops got it banned. thats why it took so much longer than the other formats
Running 4 Ivory Tower was insane. Especially when you ran UW control with a Copy Artifact. Imagine you have 4x Moat, 4x The Abyss, 12 spell counters, 4x Swords and Wrath. Then 4x Millstone. Nothing’s coming through. Then the fact that you’re running Timetwister, Wheel Of Fortune (dual lands and Mox Ruby to generate red) Library Of Alexandria, Ancestral Recall. You’ll stay in the 6-8 cards in hand, gain an unkillable amount of life and casually mill your opponent. Or you kill your opponent via Serra Angel/Mahamoti Djinn if you’re playing B Weissman’s The Deck.
@@vyxzuw768 While it does fit, you play at most 1 copy and maybe not even that. It’s a win more card that does nothing on its own and doesn’t stack either. The goal wouldn’t be to gain infinite life, the goal is to be above the opposing deck’s ability to win.
@@Rorschachqp Yes, but since the Library allows you to have an infinite hand size, and there is no technical limit on deck size, you can go for tudors/draw mechanics and then just throw most of your deck into your hand. And with Feldon's cane, you can shuffle your graveyard into your deck. So you make a deck that is designed to just last forever. Win by your opponent leaving from boredom. I ran a red/white/blue deck. Counterspell, Circle of Protection, and a few direct damage. Basically just say no until I Got enough mana to fireball my opponent. Eventually...
@@vyxzuw768 Right I know how the card works and it doesn’t win you the game. The deck I’m proposing was a real deck in 1994 and won all the games until Ivory Tower was restricted.
Being an avid miracles player during that time, a lot of draws were due to it being considered a "Top Deck" and so a lot of players would assume it was easy to pilot and show up first time with it and not have enough reps in. However, I do know of one player that intentionally offered a draw to his opponent 1st round when he won. His opponent preferred that so the opponent accepted. He then spent the next few hours slaughtering miracles players because he had a near 90% miracles matchup.
Another critically important detail about Zuran Orb is that Armageddon and Balance were both staples of a lot of white decks. Casting Armageddon and sacking all your lands before it resolves to gain 8+ life was fantastic. Also, more importantly, casting balance and saccing all your land in response to it gave you the life gain but also forced the opponent to sac all their lands to equalize the number. When you have no creatures in play, this devastated an opponent. Follow it up with a land tax, and you dominate the opponent with a strong control strategy. Armageddon, Wrath of God, Zuran Orb, Balance, Swords to Plowshares, Disenchant. Good times.
Oh and let's not forget the mandatory copy of Feldon's Cane (which I think was restricted?) so when you are almost decked out, the game just continues. I have fond memories I'm playing my green white Armageddon deck against my best friend's black white Armageddon dick when we were kids until literally the sun came up and getting maybe two or three games in
The power 9 was banned from commander not because they were powerful cards but because they were expensive and the commander committee didn't want to set the president that commander was an expensive to play format requiring the P9.
All of the power 9 aren't even banned in Commander. Timetwister is legal. It's just the 5 moxen, Lotus, walk and recall, which are admittedly very powerful and should be banned on power level AND accessibility grounds.
@@ImpossibilitySpace Cards shouldn't be banned solely due to accessibility. If you don't want to play with those cards, just don't, and if you really need to but can't afford it, proxies are a very popular thing. Those cards SHOULD still be banned due to power level, but cards shouldn't be banned because they're expensive.
Oh my God, that was such a beautifully perfect monologue for Sensei's Divining Top. I couldn't stop laughing. Thanks so much for creating this SaffronOlive.
YOOOO!!! you posted a card my uncle drew dude!!! It's the Kird Ape card 2:17, nice!!! My uncle's name is Ken Meyer Jr, he's my dad's brother, he's been doing commissioned artwork for WoTC since 96', he also did artwork for their competitor White Wolf, that's badass to see my uncle's artwork on this channel haha
Similar to the Rukh Egg issue, when Visions was new, we would play Viashino Sandstalker as printed and return it to our hand at the end of every turn regardless of where it was.
For Juggernaut and the sword (or any artifact, really) you have to remember that artifact decks were ridiculously strong when compared to decks of color. You can get six mana from two Towers, and it didn't have to do 20. It just had to do what was left of your opponent's life.
The story of "Invoke Prejudice" is kind of ironic, despite being the most absolutely on-point freaking art and effect. Its the most literal form of a "hate" spell towards creatures that didn't share a mana color with YOUR creatures.
Another thing to note with Zuran Orb is that it was in standard at the same time as Necropotence, so being able to gain life for drawing cards and having a use for the lands you drew was some really good synergy
Ivory Tower and Zuran Orb were used in combo and control decks. Both were used with terrifying efficiency in Necro Deck and Thawing Glacier Control. I love Thawing Glacier.
Sword of the ages was printed the same time as the Tron lands and Mishra's workshop It was super easy to spam the field with juggernauts, triskelions, Colossus of Sardia etc. and crack people for lethal 2 workshops was enough mana to play the sword on turn 2, 3 workshops and some moxen was enough to put 15+ power on the board The typical play pattern for that deck was: T1: Mishra's Workshop, moxen, tap moxen for sol ring, play juggernaut T2: Play another shop, play sword of ages, swing for 5 T3: Play any land, swing for 5, play another jugg tap sword for lethal Keep in mind a 5/3 is hard to block and if you're bolt heavy they'll just play colossus instead which is a 9/9 trample
The combo with Ivory Tower was also having Library of Alexandria. It's worth mentioning that in original MTG rules, the first player would also draw on their first turn. So, play would look like: 1) Go first and draw to 8 cards 2) Play Library of Alexandria, tap for mana, and play Ivory Tower 3) On my next turn, I untap, tap Library to go to 8 cards, gain 4 life from Ivory Tower, then draw to 9 4) Play two cards to bring me back down to 7 cards 5) Repeat for every remaining turn Even a modern aggro player is going to have difficulty beating a control player who is gaining 4 life and drawing 2 cards per turn from their second turn (even if the control player is behind a mana on the curve). Sometimes they brought in Library of Leng into it as well, usually with other draw engines, in order to gain an increasing amount of life each turn. EDIT: And, of course, the combo was only two cards and could fit in any deck. So, there's nothing preventing everyone from picking it up. When both players best creatures was Serra Angel or Shivan Dragon, it was extremely hard for either player to win before decking out. Which is probably why WotC talked about Ivory Tower causing time issues during tournaments.
Funny thing about Beacon of Immortality is that it's now become an okay combo w/ Tainted Remedy, making it potentially a one-shot kill and immediately ending a game rather than drawing it out.
Sword of the Ages is currently on the reserved list and more expensive monetarily than even the most powerful of the Swords of X and Y, so I think it got the last laugh
What you missed about 90s banned cards is that power level of creatures has increased greatly since the 90s. Compared to the cards they were going up against, Kird Ape was strong, because the vast majority of creatures then had power less than or equal to casting cost. With Ivory Tower, issue was not one Ivory Tower, but 4, plus a Library of Leng. Draw cards, don't play anything, gain an ever increasing life amount each turn. 3 life a turn is weak, but 12 on one turn, 16 on the next, and so on could quickly make a player unkillable. Every card you drew and didn't play meant +4 life per turn.
I'm not a fan of "Activate only once each turn" affects but I'd love to see a Senseis Divining Top reprint with this affect. I'd even be happy with an "Activate only as a sorcery" version.
To be fair attune with aether was a crazy enabler for energy decks, allowing them to play whatever colors they wanted while not slowing down tempo because the energy could be used for something
I get banning for time purposes isn't the same as power level, but Top was a key piece to the most powerful legacy deck for years. That shouldn't be here.
Back in 1995/1996 Standard Zuran Orb was good in Erniegeddon Decks: Tap all Lands for mana, sac to zuran orb an play Armageddon. Also Ivory Tower was huge in combination with necropotence: More life equals more cards. I loved this combo😅
Erhnageddon didn't play Zuran Orb. The strategy there was: 1) Play Erhnam Djinn, what was considered a very busted creature at the time. A 4/5 for four mana without evasion, imagine that. Unstoppable xd 2) Play Armageddon. You negate the drawback of Erhnam and rob the opponent of a chance to kill it. But the Armageddon + Orb synergy was interesting before they removed the interrupt card type.
The sword looks crazy when you compare it to, like, Cannon Soldier. I guess it's just that it's so expensive, but knowing there's ways to cheat out equipment, I get it.
Sword of the Ages actually predated damage on the stack. If your creatures were around to deal damage, the only things you could play at that point were damage prevention/redirection and interrupts.
Damage did not use the stack when Sword of Ages was Restricted though. That started with 6th edition rules in 1999. 10th edition rules in 2007 changed it back to how it was in the very old days (sort of).
Fun fact, i was playing a game of commander the other day against Oloro (the giant that gains life) and he killed me with Beacon of Immortality and Sanguine Bond :p extremely OP, should be banned again 😉
As an Arab, I don't find the Jihad card offensive. Wizards was making no moral judgment on Jihad. Historically religious or political ferver has been a boon to troop morale. Even French republicanism had a fanatical morale boosting effect on the revolutionary armies. The Middle Eastern cataphracts depicted in the picture are not ugly demented caricatures. They are depicted as well equipped soldiers fighting a medieval battle with zeal. As someone who always saw people who look like my dad as bloodthirsty terrorists or backwards inept nameless bad guys, I liked the art and the card. It depicted a sort of nobility western media often denies people of MENA descent.
No, white woke Seattle SJWs definitely understand better than all minorities what's good for them to protect them and keep everyone safe from being offended. Thank goodness we can censor and block everything that may even provoke a fair and intellectual discussion about different cultures.
They become crazy woke. Not much logic to it. I loved playing with Army of Allah and Crusade back in the day. Jihad was already a bit too expensive for me...
The people who get offended at everything have outsize power right now. The cost of being accused of being insensitive has been dialed up, and the benefit of being offended constantly, especially if you know postmodernist lingo, opens doors for people.
agree, it is crazy that they can conduct the most offensive behavior(forcing everything to be them or be called "offensive" yourself) and no one bats an eye, there is a proverb in my culture that said "only allowing governors to set fire, but not allowing civilians to light lamps", fits those people well.
@@lsp6032 If anythinf they are perpetuating stereotypes that all Jihad is specifically terrorism. It just means righteous struggle. The slave revolt in Haiti was a jihad. The civil rights movement in America was a jihad. It further orientalizes us to ban it. I respect thier attempt be more sensitive, but in doing so it actually does the exact opposite.
Loved seeing Evan Erwin commenting on the Juggernaut post 😊 the godfather of youtube magic content and mtg content in general 😄 also wild nacatl banning makes me miss Shards of Alara, Worldwake early standard before caw blade 😅 great in depth review Seth love the content and all of you guys from the MTG Goldfish crew
The Commander ban list makes perfect sense once you replace "banned" with "cards that Sheldon personally doesn't like" and "legal" with "cards that Sheldon likes."
@@leonsegade-garcia2936but we also don't want 90 other cards legal but also doesn't make sense coalition victory is banned but thassa's Oracle is fine... I just want the ban list to make sense
@@OnikokoroEvery time I see someone say that I ask myself “What would a ban list that makes sense to everyone even look like?” Everyone seems to have their own idea of what the ban list should be, and the arguments never seem to end.
@@magnusprime962 If I controlled there would be 2 formats Optimized and Casual Cedh would be the best of the best of both those formats. Casual would have more bans then optimized Casual would have no fast mana under 4 mana, no nonspecific tutors no commander that if you have 0 hand, 0 graveyard, draw land for turn and have enough mana to cast your commander and use his ability once you can Win the game or come close to it No I win the game if you don't have blue. Example if on playing Thassa Oracle against deck Red, green, black, and a white deck. They each have 2 nesh cards that no one plays that would work. But lab manic they each have 5 staple cards that can deal with it in response to draw. Second son is the same way And nech cards that ruin the spirit of the game.
Beacon of Immortality being banned in Commander might have to do with how life worked at that time. The original rules for life totals in commander wasn’t that you start with 40 life but rather that you start with 200 divided by however many players there were. So 1v1 had 100 life, 3 players had 66 or 67 life (I don’t remember if it was rounded up or down) and 4 players had 50 life. That meant that Beacon of Immortality could shoot you up insanely high and drag out the game for ages.
While I didnt play in that era, I have seen many of these being used at the time. Let me just add a few things I remember about them: Ivory Tower: I've seen White / Blue control decks use this. Once they set up a lock like Moat (non-flyers cant attack) or Island Sanctuary / Howling Mine (does what Moat does but you need to skip drawing a card) to stave off most of your opponent's creatures, Ivory Tower just keeps raising your life to a point where your opponent just wont be able to do anything but scoop or die VERY SLOWLY via the single copy of Millstone that the control deck uses -_- Juggernaut: Same as the ape: it was just efficient for its time... and splashable in any deck since it was just an artifact. I saw a LOT of decks play it, even some control decks as their win-con, so im guessing Wizards just didnt want it all over the place? HEre's more entry for this list: Shahrazad: banned at around 1994... I mean, this card screams "logistical nightmare!" ranging from time limit to tracking of game state... and worse, if multiple copies were cast during subgames and / or main games... people WILL forget stuff -_- but the card is pretty bad. After winning a sub-game, it just halves the life of the losing player: which isnt really meaningful most of the time. Falling Star: Restricted in 1994, banned 1995. It's a 3 mana red sorcery where you have to toss it in the air to a certain height and any creature it lands on takes 3 damage. If the creature isnt destroyed, it gets tapped and "stunned" for 1 turn. While the effect is kinda ok, the randomness that comes with flipping the card up like Chaos Orb makes it more cumbersome to use. While Chaos Orb at least blows up whatever it touches, this one only affects creatures. If youre not dextrous enough and it lands on Lands... well, tough luck! Still, I think this card was restricted and later banned more due to the stuff you need to do (stand up and aim and throw...) and the interaction that your opponent can do (i.e spread his creatures across the table or move 5 feet away from you) rather than what the card does. For what it does, just... use Lightning Bolt, Incinerate, Chain Lightning, Carbonize, Arc Lightning etc etc etc
Beacon of Immortality holds a special place in my heart for creating the game where I lost at 8 Billion life. So I was playing Mirrodin Block constructed with a friend of mine back in the day and my deck's strategy was to stall out the board and play beacons to gain infinite life until my opponent decked themselves. So my friend (not yet knowing this was my deck) played me a game and eventually dropped his one of Darksteel Reactor. We were kids at the time so synergy was not really our forte; twenty long turns later with 4 cards left in his library, and me at 8 billion life, he won the game. Hmm, interesting on #8, I get most of them, but cleanse seems kinda weird. Yeah it destroys all black creatures, but the art clearly shows zombies and other undead, if it showed something else, I could see that, but still. I get the implication, but it's rather roundabout and seems like a coincidence rather than then the others that were clearly intentional. As for invoke prejudice, I totally get why that was banned (A friend of mine even told me once that the artist was a legit KKK member, though I have no idea if that's actually true or not), I'm always sad to see the Commander format loose weird cards that does odd stuff. I would like to see a functional but more tasteful reprint of that one some day.
Sword of the Ages is actually a powerhouse in old school. Tron decks can generate a ton of mana for artifacts pretty quick, throw in mana rocks, etc, and you could potentially be using SotA with saaaay a Colossus of Sardia, Juggernaut, etc by turn 4 or 5.
You gotta remember if they had ivory tower, they were probably playing library of Alexandria so gaining 7 a turn plus drawing 2 a turn at least is devastating even today but the removal today is superior to then since people account for all card types instead of 1 or 2 card types.
People have said that, but it's not possible because Invisibility was not in any Extended-legal set at the time, as the first core set allowed was Revised.
i would love to know what was going through the RC's head back in 2004 that they thought beacon of immortality in a format where (presumably) commander damage existed was so OP it needed to be banned. like, did commander damage not exist back in 2004?.
“Rook” egg got banned because some people pronounced it “Ruk” is the real reason. Too many games ended in arguing by over the ridiculous pronunciation.
I have fond memories of Sword of the Ages since it was a way to break the stalemate of a bunch of creatures looking at each other. In multi-player free-for-all games, sometimes the board state would look like Player A & B have a bunch of creatures, and Player C doesn't, but if A or B wipes out C, then they are left defenseless. With the Sword, A could wipe out C, then fling his board at B.
I could see ivory tower being an amazing sideboard card against aggro or even mid range to some extent. By turn 4 or 5, assuming you played it turn one, it may have gained 10+ life. Given that, if wotc wanted aggro to be good, i could see them banning it. Heck, ivory tower would be a good sideboard card today if a meta was filled with aggro.
It wouldn’t be good against aggro today because in order to gain life with it you need to either not cast spells, which means not dealing with opposing creatures, or spend mana on drawing extra cards, which also doesn’t deal with your opponents creatures. In almost any format with a good aggro deck you’d take more damage trying to gain the life than you’d actually gain. Against burn, and only creatureless- or very creature light burn, it could be decent, but even that is pushing it due to how slow it is.
Pure lifegain has sometimes been playable in sideboards, yeah. It's not very good vs. aggro but it can do work against all-in strategies like Burn. Like Dragon's Claw in Modern. (Though the format is way too fast for that to matter, now.)
In the middle ages of magic, Ive seen this card to some real work in control decks. Ive seen control decks reach a point where their set up allows them to gain 3 life per turn, have some sort of protection (i.e Moat) and have a win-con. The win-con for more sensible deck builders are usually either Serra Angel or Mahamoti Djinn, but some more crueler players use a single copy of Millstone. If you happen to face these sadistic players... your match is gonna take SO long... watching paint dry is probably faster -_-
An older guy at my game store years ago, played Ivory Tower in his Tower of Power deck. Got out the spellbook and just kept umpteen cards in his hand, not to mention all the other crap in that deck.
I expected to see the ante cards and/or Shahrazad on this list, but I'm kind of glad you didn't include them because everyone basically already knows about them and why they're banned. Most of these cards have more interesting stories.
I feel like all of Top's issues could be solved by making both effects a sorcery speed. You want to do it multiple times a turn? Fine, but it won't matter usually more than twice. No topping in response, it becomes able to be solved... and none of this will happen, since WotC usually doesn't errata cards without very, VERY good reason (*cough* Companions... *cough*). Not my idea, but a very good one!
I have never used diving top like that, I used it as an infinite draw mechanic by making artifacts cost less and letting me play the top card of my library.
I wonder if beacon of immortality got banned because it says target player and double or as I read it gain exact life total. there are quite a few ways to turn life gain into life loss plus you'd have those on the board long before getting the mana to play Beacon in commander.
Disagree hard with the notion that Top is a weaker card on the banlists. It’s way too good with fetches, and miracles/counterbalance become oppressive with it
In the mid-90s I used to play a RG deck where Turn 1 Taiga-Kird Ape was the typical first play with Ernham Djinns on turns 3/4 off Sol Rings/Mana Vaults etc. Was great fun.
My guess with Beacon of Immortality is not having a commander damage rule at the time and not being able to give non combo decks an out against infinite life
One thing to remember about life gain is that Necropotence was a thing. Zuran Orb was basically trade a land to draw 2 cards. I bet a big part of a few of these bans was Kird Ape-giant growth-berzerk-fork. Back in the day, that was downright terrifying, if hard to pull off
Omg Seth mentionning Beacon of immortality, bring me so many good memories. My first magic deck i ever bought like 16-17 years ago was a cleric tribal deck with 4 mother of runes,4 battletide alchemist, and many cleric card from scourge/onlsaught like battlefield medic,doubtless one, weathered wayfarer and 3 Beacon of immortality on it. That was during the time where i think the conflux block was being released and all my friend were playing upgraded version of the time spirals/lorwyn precon. So basically we were a bunch of 13 years old, doing those crazy 6-7 players free for all games where like 1 guy was playing sliver tribal,1 elf, 1 goblin, 1 faerie, 1 fungus, 1 cleric and nobody knew what a boardwipe was and i kept winning by sitting in my corner preventing all damage, gaining a million life with beacon of immortality and then attacking with a 30/30 protection from whatever my opponent was playing. After a while my friends decided that my deck was too strong and they decided to ban beacon of immortality from our playgroup because mostly of the shuffle back in the library effect allowing me to use an it average of 10 times per game XD.
Two things, I don't think top should be on the list. Yes I get that it got banned for slow play rate, but it also banned from legacy for it's ability to create soft locks too. Second thing, the problem with Attune with Aether as Saffron Olive stated was the Energy and Attune was such a big enabler of that deck. That banning it at the time was reasonable because of how strong the deck was and the fact that wotc didn't print effective hate cards to it because Maro hates things that interact with poison or energy.
Top is an interesting one to debate. It wasn't banned for being too good (but for being too slow) but it's also not a bad card. I don't think I'd remove it from the list all together, but I would probably bump it down to the bottom of the list based on everyone's feedback.
8:20 Having Mark Rosewater spend an entire podcast explaining that energy ISN'T a parasitic mechanic, and then talking down to people who use that kinda language is some of my favorite ironic magic content ever (drive to work episode 856)
I think Beacon was banned because it shuffles back in, and with a 100 card deck, beacon can run the risk of both crazy life totals and extending the game through repeated shuffling
Juggernaut was actually powerful in the Ice Age - homelands - Alliances set. Creatures had gone way down in power, and it was easily possible to play it on turn 2-3. Being immune to "terror", it was harder to get rid of it and hitting a couple times with it was a real deal.
Also sol rings and dark rituals. Swinging for 1/4 of your opponents heath was easy to start in the early rounds. This card always seemed to help and win, especially with unholy strength attached to it..
Oh Senseis Divining Top... I still remember an Extended Tournament i was in and on the first round there was a mirrior match of two mono B control decks and, somehow, both had Top and Counter Balance in play... when turns was called by the judge they were still on the first match...
Beacon of immortality puts itself back in your library so it can definitely get into the "if you have no response you can never possibly kill me even though I have no win condition"
What really blows my mind about Beacon of Immortality being banned in Commander is that 21 commander damage is still lethal. So it's not like it's gonna super drag games out or make it literally impossible to kill a player, like Ivory Tower could in the very early days.
Man, I've played this game for 29 years and I never knew about Sword of the Ages! Even as a little kid who thought Necropotence was a useless card, I knew that thing was trash. Maybe they banned it Because it's so bad. . .
Seeing kird ape and Nacatl makes me miss my old Zoo deck. I ran it up to eldrazi winter when i completely stopped playing modern and havent gone back to it. I remember Coco being one of the most busted cards printed for me
I love that Divine Intervention exists because Yugioh had the exact problem with a card called Self Destruct Button, which did the exact same and caused the exact same problem.
I use to play standard around the same time as energy, I never played it but I really like energy. It’s just such a neat deck to see. I’ve wanted to build energy in modern and pauper for the longest.
Some of these make a lot of sense for their time. Kird Ape, Juggernaut, Serendib Efreet...yeah, those were head scratchers in 1997 too. I remember when Extended came out and we didn't really understand the banned list for that.
I’ve seen Stone Throwing Devils in play. . . and Crusade and Jihad can crush opponents. One thing with the Top, is it’s hard to kill. lol, I doubt Divine Intervention was played in too many tournaments. You made it sound like it was frequently played.
beacon of immortality + false cure is a one-shot win. I used to have a deck based around that. Although, it's more likely it just caused a lot of shuffles of large libraries.
Saw swords played in some Red-Green-Blue Eureka decks and Flare decks back in the day. By itself, not the best card by any means. But, activated after a BIG attack, it makes for a great finishing move esp. when playing with pump cards (like Blood Lust, Berserk, Giant Growth) and any power blue. ... Nobody played COP Artifact. ... 90s magic was crazy, stupid fun.
Yeah, I've been playing Magic since 1994 and I remember those days early on where the most effective decks were the ones that had few creatures in them if any at all. They were called "direct damage" decks and so instead of playing creatures that attack a player, you would play a lot of cards like Lightning Bolt, Disintegrate, Fireball, to directly hit players. For that reason red and black were considered the strongest colors. Creatures just seemed like a slow way to damage players, and they were easy targets for these direct-damage cards. Nowadays, with the popularity of Commander format where you start with 40 life i/o 20, it takes longer to kill a player with direct damage, and in the meantime players are bringing out more-powerful creatures than what we commonly had in the early days that can kill you before you can kill your opponent with direct damage. I remember coming back to playing Magic after a long hiatus and I played one of my old direct damage decks and got creamed. I had no blockers, and I couldn't kill the opponent's creatures fast enough with direct damage and so I didn't have enough direct damage cards left in hand to actually damage the opponent.
Zuran Orb was also synergistic with Balance when it was legal. If you could get a slightly better creature in play then you could sac your lands and cast Balance to win the game.
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I get that creatures from back then seem a joke today, but at it´s time juggernaut and kird ape where killer in aggro decks and juggernaut was also killer in early tron decks. Think about it what can do against a 2/3 on turn 1 back then ? And yes with a taiga that was a 2/3 turn 1. JUggernaut could be out as early as turn 2 in some decks (mishras factory + a land or 2 swamps and a dark ritual are just 2 examples). What can you do against that in old school. There is bolt and swords, that is it. Even terror turn 2 won´t help since it is artifact. You have to also take into account that removal came at a premium back then there where not that many good removal spells. So getting removal out of your deck so you won´t have any removal later when my big threat comes out by playing something you had to answer fast was leggit back then. As for tron, by turn 3 they could have enough mana to play 2 juggernauts with a killer starthand. Or a juggernaut and some other huge threat for 6 mana.
honestly i think #8 was a mistake, banning those cards only brought them more attention and hardly anyone was playing them anyways, I don't think they were racist so much as just not aging that well.
Pronouncing “Rogue Refiner” like “Whirler Virtuoso” is one of my favorite Seth mispronunciations to date
Lol...
Wouldn’t have it another way
Whirler virtuoso was annoying af though, to be fair
Content creators put mistakes like that in on purpose because they create a whole lot of comments
I hate the algorithm
@@harkingmadwing5112 That actually makes sense, still Seth is so charismatic that I don’t really care if he does it on purpose
Countertop was the best deck in legacy by a large margin when top was banned. Top is an extremely powerful card with Counterbalance.
I play Goblins. I have only played Goblins in Legacy since 2012.
I LOVED the Miracles Legacy years, as we had a 80%+ winrate against Miracles, unlike literally all other decks.
Cavern of Souls -> Goblin Lackey. Go.
Oh damn, you Swords to Plowshares my 1/1 Lackey? I play another Lackey and an Aether Vial turn 2. Go.
Oh, you Terminus my three Gobbos? I Warchief into Matron for a Ringleader and reload my hand, attack you for 6. Go.
You Terminus AGAIN? Oh well, I Matron into Ringleader (shuffling my library as a side, putting back my Goblins from the bottom into the rest of the deck), draw three, I attack you for 2, go.
I had an opponent HARDCAST a *FIFTH* Terminus with a Snapcaster to survive (after using two Swords to Plowshares ON RINGLEADERS, because they couldn't keep up). They still died on my turn, because I drew Warchief and had a Mogg War Marshall and a Piledriver in hand...
Ahhhh, good memories.
Yeah he undersold how broken that card is, but he's right that it was likely banned because of everyone going to time each round.
Countertop also had a history of winning BO3 matches with 1 win, 0 losses, and 1 draw.
It might be Mandela but wasn't it also pretty good with Miracles as well in Legacy.
I'm absolutely shocked you have Sensei's Divining Top on this list. I get that it takes a while to properly play, but idfk about it being "one of the worst"
also a teensy tiny, itty bitty exaggeration to say that each top resolution takes 3 minutes to resolve.
or that anybody would activate top after already arranging the top cards without the intention to draw one of those cards out.
@@DemonBlanka Right? I see that and I want it for my Bridge deck because anything that lets a creature tribal deck stack itself for Cascade effects sounds great.
Additionally, it's odd to call Top a fair card since it was never played fair, nor did players have to try hard to not play fair. Top is only a "fair" card if there's nothing that interacts with it. Even ignoring fetchlands, there are plenty of ways to shuffle/mill/scry/care about the top of your library. Top has a low cost which makes it easy to deploy and rearrange. It's also free to trade it in.
Top may have been banned for being slow, but it wasn't popular because it was slow.
Back in the day, me and a buddy bought some Kamigawa precon decks from a store and played against each other for a pack of Avacyn (when Avacyn was new, got a good deal on the sealed decks).
Long story short, his deck had Sensei's Diving Top in it. His pack for winning had a Griselbrand too.
Top is and will always be good in every format. Or I have PTSD. Or both.
im guessing the reasoning for including it is because it wasnt banned for being too good, just cause it wastes time
top was banned in legacy for power level. its ability to soft lock the opponents plus mentor loops got it banned. thats why it took so much longer than the other formats
It also made miracles far too powerful.
Technically top is classified as both too powerful and not. On paper it looks pretty weak but in use its busted.
It was the top of the format
Running 4 Ivory Tower was insane. Especially when you ran UW control with a Copy Artifact. Imagine you have 4x Moat, 4x The Abyss, 12 spell counters, 4x Swords and Wrath. Then 4x Millstone. Nothing’s coming through. Then the fact that you’re running Timetwister, Wheel Of Fortune (dual lands and Mox Ruby to generate red) Library Of Alexandria, Ancestral Recall. You’ll stay in the 6-8 cards in hand, gain an unkillable amount of life and casually mill your opponent. Or you kill your opponent via Serra Angel/Mahamoti Djinn if you’re playing B Weissman’s The Deck.
The tinker time vault deck in extended and old school still have pretty much the same broken deck list and game plan as that
Also Library of Leng to have no maximum hand size.
@@vyxzuw768 While it does fit, you play at most 1 copy and maybe not even that. It’s a win more card that does nothing on its own and doesn’t stack either. The goal wouldn’t be to gain infinite life, the goal is to be above the opposing deck’s ability to win.
@@Rorschachqp Yes, but since the Library allows you to have an infinite hand size, and there is no technical limit on deck size, you can go for tudors/draw mechanics and then just throw most of your deck into your hand. And with Feldon's cane, you can shuffle your graveyard into your deck.
So you make a deck that is designed to just last forever. Win by your opponent leaving from boredom.
I ran a red/white/blue deck. Counterspell, Circle of Protection, and a few direct damage. Basically just say no until I Got enough mana to fireball my opponent. Eventually...
@@vyxzuw768 Right I know how the card works and it doesn’t win you the game. The deck I’m proposing was a real deck in 1994 and won all the games until Ivory Tower was restricted.
As someone who used to play magic before ivory tower was restricted it was unbeatable with 3 or 4 out in a control deck.
I remember playing against control decks back then and being INFURIATED. Kismet+Stasis.... 😡😡😡
Zuran Orb is a beast in a landfall deck now. Especially with Titania on the board.
Zuran Orb was broken in standard Balance decks.
Yeah, Titania + Zuran Orb is sweet! I made a Modern deck around it at one point. It was pretty hilarious.
@@ManaDrain315 And not bad in Necro.
Zuran orb goes infinite in so many combos nowadays
I run orb with flagstones and ghostquarter and brought back, steppe lynx love it
Once in a legacy tournament I was in, a Miracles mirror ended up a 0-0 tie after 50 minutes. Probably this was actually very common.
Magic as Richard Garfield intended
Being an avid miracles player during that time, a lot of draws were due to it being considered a "Top Deck" and so a lot of players would assume it was easy to pilot and show up first time with it and not have enough reps in. However, I do know of one player that intentionally offered a draw to his opponent 1st round when he won. His opponent preferred that so the opponent accepted. He then spent the next few hours slaughtering miracles players because he had a near 90% miracles matchup.
Another critically important detail about Zuran Orb is that Armageddon and Balance were both staples of a lot of white decks. Casting Armageddon and sacking all your lands before it resolves to gain 8+ life was fantastic. Also, more importantly, casting balance and saccing all your land in response to it gave you the life gain but also forced the opponent to sac all their lands to equalize the number. When you have no creatures in play, this devastated an opponent. Follow it up with a land tax, and you dominate the opponent with a strong control strategy. Armageddon, Wrath of God, Zuran Orb, Balance, Swords to Plowshares, Disenchant. Good times.
Unfortunately artifacts have gotten better so balance has fallen out of favour in formats that can play them except cube.
Oh and let's not forget the mandatory copy of Feldon's Cane (which I think was restricted?) so when you are almost decked out, the game just continues. I have fond memories I'm playing my green white Armageddon deck against my best friend's black white Armageddon dick when we were kids until literally the sun came up and getting maybe two or three games in
The power 9 was banned from commander not because they were powerful cards but because they were expensive and the commander committee didn't want to set the president that commander was an expensive to play format requiring the P9.
All of the power 9 aren't even banned in Commander. Timetwister is legal. It's just the 5 moxen, Lotus, walk and recall, which are admittedly very powerful and should be banned on power level AND accessibility grounds.
@@ImpossibilitySpace Cards shouldn't be banned solely due to accessibility. If you don't want to play with those cards, just don't, and if you really need to but can't afford it, proxies are a very popular thing. Those cards SHOULD still be banned due to power level, but cards shouldn't be banned because they're expensive.
Oh my God, that was such a beautifully perfect monologue for Sensei's Divining Top. I couldn't stop laughing. Thanks so much for creating this SaffronOlive.
Ha, glad you like it. That was my favorite part of the video too.
Agreed. Save this for Top Goldfish 2023 retrospective.
@@MTGGoldfish Hey. I don't have red hair.
YOOOO!!! you posted a card my uncle drew dude!!! It's the Kird Ape card 2:17, nice!!! My uncle's name is Ken Meyer Jr, he's my dad's brother, he's been doing commissioned artwork for WoTC since 96', he also did artwork for their competitor White Wolf, that's badass to see my uncle's artwork on this channel haha
Similar to the Rukh Egg issue, when Visions was new, we would play Viashino Sandstalker as printed and return it to our hand at the end of every turn regardless of where it was.
For Juggernaut and the sword (or any artifact, really) you have to remember that artifact decks were ridiculously strong when compared to decks of color. You can get six mana from two Towers, and it didn't have to do 20. It just had to do what was left of your opponent's life.
The story of "Invoke Prejudice" is kind of ironic, despite being the most absolutely on-point freaking art and effect. Its the most literal form of a "hate" spell towards creatures that didn't share a mana color with YOUR creatures.
Another thing to note with Zuran Orb is that it was in standard at the same time as Necropotence, so being able to gain life for drawing cards and having a use for the lands you drew was some really good synergy
Seth: Divine Intervention literally can’t win a game
Opalesence: am I a joke to you?
yes
Ah yes, the ol' turn 4, replenish into parallax tide, parralax wave, attunement, remove all your blockers and lands, done. untap, kill you.
Ivory Tower and Zuran Orb were used in combo and control decks. Both were used with terrifying efficiency in Necro Deck and Thawing Glacier Control.
I love Thawing Glacier.
Me too thanks such a broken and balanced card.
Kird Ape next to Channel on the ban list is kind of comical. 😂
Kird ape was really not a joke in the 90s.
This was very interesting
Ha, yeah. Unfortunately Sword of the Ages is on the Reserved List so it's like $90, otherwise I would totally build a Commander deck around it.
Zorbalance was pretty powerful even though Balance was restricted before Zuran Orb was even printed
Sword of ages is interesting, bought mine years and years ago while looking for reserved list cards to buy and cheap at the time.
Zuran orb was great in Necropotance deck.
@@jollyjoker6340 Ahhhh the memories of Zuran Orb -> float 4 mana -> Balance -> Tormod's Crypt -> Planar Birth
Sword of the ages was printed the same time as the Tron lands and Mishra's workshop
It was super easy to spam the field with juggernauts, triskelions, Colossus of Sardia etc. and crack people for lethal
2 workshops was enough mana to play the sword on turn 2, 3 workshops and some moxen was enough to put 15+ power on the board
The typical play pattern for that deck was:
T1: Mishra's Workshop, moxen, tap moxen for sol ring, play juggernaut
T2: Play another shop, play sword of ages, swing for 5
T3: Play any land, swing for 5, play another jugg tap sword for lethal
Keep in mind a 5/3 is hard to block and if you're bolt heavy they'll just play colossus instead which is a 9/9 trample
The combo with Ivory Tower was also having Library of Alexandria.
It's worth mentioning that in original MTG rules, the first player would also draw on their first turn. So, play would look like:
1) Go first and draw to 8 cards
2) Play Library of Alexandria, tap for mana, and play Ivory Tower
3) On my next turn, I untap, tap Library to go to 8 cards, gain 4 life from Ivory Tower, then draw to 9
4) Play two cards to bring me back down to 7 cards
5) Repeat for every remaining turn
Even a modern aggro player is going to have difficulty beating a control player who is gaining 4 life and drawing 2 cards per turn from their second turn (even if the control player is behind a mana on the curve).
Sometimes they brought in Library of Leng into it as well, usually with other draw engines, in order to gain an increasing amount of life each turn.
EDIT: And, of course, the combo was only two cards and could fit in any deck. So, there's nothing preventing everyone from picking it up. When both players best creatures was Serra Angel or Shivan Dragon, it was extremely hard for either player to win before decking out. Which is probably why WotC talked about Ivory Tower causing time issues during tournaments.
I remember when you could draw a card when playing first. LoA was really powerful (still is but it was even more at that time).
Funny thing about Beacon of Immortality is that it's now become an okay combo w/ Tainted Remedy, making it potentially a one-shot kill and immediately ending a game rather than drawing it out.
I've lost to that combo turn 2 and it was hilarious.
The easiest way to beat ivory tower is too attack with 3 Wooly spiders instead of 2
Black vise was doing the job too, until the restricted it.
Sword of the Ages is currently on the reserved list and more expensive monetarily than even the most powerful of the Swords of X and Y, so I think it got the last laugh
Got mine years and years ago because it looked interesting and on the reserved list and alot cheaper at the time
I was expecting a slot about how the original legend rules made all legends inherently restricted despite being terrible.
What you missed about 90s banned cards is that power level of creatures has increased greatly since the 90s. Compared to the cards they were going up against, Kird Ape was strong, because the vast majority of creatures then had power less than or equal to casting cost. With Ivory Tower, issue was not one Ivory Tower, but 4, plus a Library of Leng. Draw cards, don't play anything, gain an ever increasing life amount each turn. 3 life a turn is weak, but 12 on one turn, 16 on the next, and so on could quickly make a player unkillable. Every card you drew and didn't play meant +4 life per turn.
I'm not a fan of "Activate only once each turn" affects but I'd love to see a Senseis Divining Top reprint with this affect. I'd even be happy with an "Activate only as a sorcery" version.
Senseis defining dradle
I like how Kird Ape is right next to Channel in the ban notes, one of the most broken free mana cards in magic.
To be fair attune with aether was a crazy enabler for energy decks, allowing them to play whatever colors they wanted while not slowing down tempo because the energy could be used for something
Another reason why Beacon was a useless ban is that commander damage is a thing in Commander
Sure but it is not particularly hard to build deck so that you'll never take commander damage
A lot of commanders never attack though
I get banning for time purposes isn't the same as power level, but Top was a key piece to the most powerful legacy deck for years. That shouldn't be here.
completly agree
Back in 1995/1996 Standard Zuran Orb was good in Erniegeddon Decks: Tap all Lands for mana, sac to zuran orb an play Armageddon. Also Ivory Tower was huge in combination with necropotence: More life equals more cards. I loved this combo😅
Erhnageddon didn't play Zuran Orb. The strategy there was:
1) Play Erhnam Djinn, what was considered a very busted creature at the time. A 4/5 for four mana without evasion, imagine that. Unstoppable xd
2) Play Armageddon. You negate the drawback of Erhnam and rob the opponent of a chance to kill it.
But the Armageddon + Orb synergy was interesting before they removed the interrupt card type.
Ivory tower is fun with stasis, too. use stasis to delay, while howling mines feed you an island every turn, gain 3, gain 3, gain 3...
@@Nalianna Stasis was super evil :D
@Joseph Poland thanks, exactly thats what i thought, too. I have some of the WCD Decks with Orb and Ernham Djinn in them
The sword looks crazy when you compare it to, like, Cannon Soldier. I guess it's just that it's so expensive, but knowing there's ways to cheat out equipment, I get it.
Cannon Soldier would be bad too if you couldn't use it until the turn after it was played.
It's probably more like Mass Driver ... or post-errata CED?
sword of ages makes a lot more sense when you remember damage used the stack. attack, damage on the stack, sword of ages your board at their face.
Came here to say this. 6 mana was a bit steep, but it wasn't "the worst card ever by a wide margin".
Sword of the Ages actually predated damage on the stack. If your creatures were around to deal damage, the only things you could play at that point were damage prevention/redirection and interrupts.
Damage did not use the stack when Sword of Ages was Restricted though. That started with 6th edition rules in 1999. 10th edition rules in 2007 changed it back to how it was in the very old days (sort of).
Fun fact, i was playing a game of commander the other day against Oloro (the giant that gains life) and he killed me with Beacon of Immortality and Sanguine Bond :p extremely OP, should be banned again 😉
Ha, that's awesome!
Where's Shahrazad?
I was wondering that too.
That's not a bad card.
Good point
@@MakeVarahHappen It kind of is. It's not terrible, but definitely not good.
Beacon of Immortality + False Cure was a known 1 shot in commander back then which might be why it raised a red flag.
As an Arab, I don't find the Jihad card offensive. Wizards was making no moral judgment on Jihad. Historically religious or political ferver has been a boon to troop morale. Even French republicanism had a fanatical morale boosting effect on the revolutionary armies.
The Middle Eastern cataphracts depicted in the picture are not ugly demented caricatures. They are depicted as well equipped soldiers fighting a medieval battle with zeal.
As someone who always saw people who look like my dad as bloodthirsty terrorists or backwards inept nameless bad guys, I liked the art and the card. It depicted a sort of nobility western media often denies people of MENA descent.
No, white woke Seattle SJWs definitely understand better than all minorities what's good for them to protect them and keep everyone safe from being offended. Thank goodness we can censor and block everything that may even provoke a fair and intellectual discussion about different cultures.
They become crazy woke. Not much logic to it. I loved playing with Army of Allah and Crusade back in the day. Jihad was already a bit too expensive for me...
The people who get offended at everything have outsize power right now. The cost of being accused of being insensitive has been dialed up, and the benefit of being offended constantly, especially if you know postmodernist lingo, opens doors for people.
agree, it is crazy that they can conduct the most offensive behavior(forcing everything to be them or be called "offensive" yourself) and no one bats an eye, there is a proverb in my culture that said "only allowing governors to set fire, but not allowing civilians to light lamps", fits those people well.
@@lsp6032
If anythinf they are perpetuating stereotypes that all Jihad is specifically terrorism.
It just means righteous struggle. The slave revolt in Haiti was a jihad. The civil rights movement in America was a jihad.
It further orientalizes us to ban it. I respect thier attempt be more sensitive, but in doing so it actually does the exact opposite.
Loved seeing Evan Erwin commenting on the Juggernaut post 😊 the godfather of youtube magic content and mtg content in general 😄 also wild nacatl banning makes me miss Shards of Alara, Worldwake early standard before caw blade 😅 great in depth review Seth love the content and all of you guys from the MTG Goldfish crew
The Commander ban list makes perfect sense once you replace "banned" with "cards that Sheldon personally doesn't like" and "legal" with "cards that Sheldon likes."
fair but i dont think anyone wants channel, karakas or most of the power 9 to be legal
@@leonsegade-garcia2936but we also don't want 90 other cards legal but also doesn't make sense coalition victory is banned but thassa's Oracle is fine...
I just want the ban list to make sense
@@OnikokoroEvery time I see someone say that I ask myself “What would a ban list that makes sense to everyone even look like?” Everyone seems to have their own idea of what the ban list should be, and the arguments never seem to end.
@@magnusprime962 If I controlled there would be 2 formats Optimized and Casual Cedh would be the best of the best of both those formats. Casual would have more bans then optimized
Casual would have no fast mana under 4 mana,
no nonspecific tutors
no commander that if you have 0 hand, 0 graveyard, draw land for turn and have enough mana to cast your commander and use his ability once you can Win the game or come close to it
No I win the game if you don't have blue. Example if on playing Thassa Oracle against deck Red, green, black, and a white deck. They each have 2 nesh cards that no one plays that would work. But lab manic they each have 5 staple cards that can deal with it in response to draw. Second son is the same way
And nech cards that ruin the spirit of the game.
Ivory Tower was also really effective when paired with Necropotence. Pay 3 or 4 life to reload your hand... and then gain it all back at next upkeep.
Beacon of Immortality being banned in Commander might have to do with how life worked at that time. The original rules for life totals in commander wasn’t that you start with 40 life but rather that you start with 200 divided by however many players there were. So 1v1 had 100 life, 3 players had 66 or 67 life (I don’t remember if it was rounded up or down) and 4 players had 50 life. That meant that Beacon of Immortality could shoot you up insanely high and drag out the game for ages.
"Juggernaut doesn't even show up in standard, it's that bad."
Graaz: "*sad juggernaut noises.*"
Great write up Seth.
Here's one person that appreciates the nuanced history of our great game.
Glad you liked it! These are some of my favorite videos to make. I love Magic's history too.
While I didnt play in that era, I have seen many of these being used at the time. Let me just add a few things I remember about them:
Ivory Tower: I've seen White / Blue control decks use this. Once they set up a lock like Moat (non-flyers cant attack) or Island Sanctuary / Howling Mine (does what Moat does but you need to skip drawing a card) to stave off most of your opponent's creatures, Ivory Tower just keeps raising your life to a point where your opponent just wont be able to do anything but scoop or die VERY SLOWLY via the single copy of Millstone that the control deck uses -_-
Juggernaut: Same as the ape: it was just efficient for its time... and splashable in any deck since it was just an artifact. I saw a LOT of decks play it, even some control decks as their win-con, so im guessing Wizards just didnt want it all over the place?
HEre's more entry for this list:
Shahrazad: banned at around 1994... I mean, this card screams "logistical nightmare!" ranging from time limit to tracking of game state... and worse, if multiple copies were cast during subgames and / or main games... people WILL forget stuff -_- but the card is pretty bad. After winning a sub-game, it just halves the life of the losing player: which isnt really meaningful most of the time.
Falling Star: Restricted in 1994, banned 1995. It's a 3 mana red sorcery where you have to toss it in the air to a certain height and any creature it lands on takes 3 damage. If the creature isnt destroyed, it gets tapped and "stunned" for 1 turn. While the effect is kinda ok, the randomness that comes with flipping the card up like Chaos Orb makes it more cumbersome to use. While Chaos Orb at least blows up whatever it touches, this one only affects creatures. If youre not dextrous enough and it lands on Lands... well, tough luck!
Still, I think this card was restricted and later banned more due to the stuff you need to do (stand up and aim and throw...) and the interaction that your opponent can do (i.e spread his creatures across the table or move 5 feet away from you) rather than what the card does. For what it does, just... use Lightning Bolt, Incinerate, Chain Lightning, Carbonize, Arc Lightning etc etc etc
I too was surprised at absence of Shahrazad.
That was interesting! These kind of videos are always cool.
Beacon of Immortality holds a special place in my heart for creating the game where I lost at 8 Billion life. So I was playing Mirrodin Block constructed with a friend of mine back in the day and my deck's strategy was to stall out the board and play beacons to gain infinite life until my opponent decked themselves. So my friend (not yet knowing this was my deck) played me a game and eventually dropped his one of Darksteel Reactor. We were kids at the time so synergy was not really our forte; twenty long turns later with 4 cards left in his library, and me at 8 billion life, he won the game.
Hmm, interesting on #8, I get most of them, but cleanse seems kinda weird. Yeah it destroys all black creatures, but the art clearly shows zombies and other undead, if it showed something else, I could see that, but still. I get the implication, but it's rather roundabout and seems like a coincidence rather than then the others that were clearly intentional. As for invoke prejudice, I totally get why that was banned (A friend of mine even told me once that the artist was a legit KKK member, though I have no idea if that's actually true or not), I'm always sad to see the Commander format loose weird cards that does odd stuff. I would like to see a functional but more tasteful reprint of that one some day.
I do like weird cards and winning off of them.
The reprint's name can be something like Waning Prism's Interference.
Sword of the Ages is actually a powerhouse in old school. Tron decks can generate a ton of mana for artifacts pretty quick, throw in mana rocks, etc, and you could potentially be using SotA with saaaay a Colossus of Sardia, Juggernaut, etc by turn 4 or 5.
Kinda tempted to throw it into my green go wide/go tall decks. Seems like a good way to finish people off.
It's stupid in og karn commander decks and so are most high cmc terrible artifacts for that matter : D
You gotta remember if they had ivory tower, they were probably playing library of Alexandria so gaining 7 a turn plus drawing 2 a turn at least is devastating even today but the removal today is superior to then since people account for all card types instead of 1 or 2 card types.
Juggernaut was banned because of a combo with Invisibility. Making Juggernaut unblockable.
People have said that, but it's not possible because Invisibility was not in any Extended-legal set at the time, as the first core set allowed was Revised.
i would love to know what was going through the RC's head back in 2004 that they thought beacon of immortality in a format where (presumably) commander damage existed was so OP it needed to be banned.
like, did commander damage not exist back in 2004?.
I pretty much only play commander but man top in a 60 card deck would suck , lol that picture of the guy was perfect
“Rook” egg got banned because some people pronounced it “Ruk” is the real reason. Too many games ended in arguing by over the ridiculous pronunciation.
I have fond memories of Sword of the Ages since it was a way to break the stalemate of a bunch of creatures looking at each other. In multi-player free-for-all games, sometimes the board state would look like Player A & B have a bunch of creatures, and Player C doesn't, but if A or B wipes out C, then they are left defenseless. With the Sword, A could wipe out C, then fling his board at B.
I could see ivory tower being an amazing sideboard card against aggro or even mid range to some extent. By turn 4 or 5, assuming you played it turn one, it may have gained 10+ life. Given that, if wotc wanted aggro to be good, i could see them banning it. Heck, ivory tower would be a good sideboard card today if a meta was filled with aggro.
It wouldn’t be good against aggro today because in order to gain life with it you need to either not cast spells, which means not dealing with opposing creatures, or spend mana on drawing extra cards, which also doesn’t deal with your opponents creatures. In almost any format with a good aggro deck you’d take more damage trying to gain the life than you’d actually gain. Against burn, and only creatureless- or very creature light burn, it could be decent, but even that is pushing it due to how slow it is.
Pure lifegain has sometimes been playable in sideboards, yeah. It's not very good vs. aggro but it can do work against all-in strategies like Burn. Like Dragon's Claw in Modern. (Though the format is way too fast for that to matter, now.)
In the middle ages of magic, Ive seen this card to some real work in control decks. Ive seen control decks reach a point where their set up allows them to gain 3 life per turn, have some sort of protection (i.e Moat) and have a win-con. The win-con for more sensible deck builders are usually either Serra Angel or Mahamoti Djinn, but some more crueler players use a single copy of Millstone. If you happen to face these sadistic players... your match is gonna take SO long... watching paint dry is probably faster -_-
An older guy at my game store years ago, played Ivory Tower in his Tower of Power deck. Got out the spellbook and just kept umpteen cards in his hand, not to mention all the other crap in that deck.
Invoke Prejudice never saw much play... but.... in a monoblue creatureless or artifact deck... it's pretty damn strong.
I expected to see the ante cards and/or Shahrazad on this list, but I'm kind of glad you didn't include them because everyone basically already knows about them and why they're banned. Most of these cards have more interesting stories.
I feel like all of Top's issues could be solved by making both effects a sorcery speed. You want to do it multiple times a turn? Fine, but it won't matter usually more than twice. No topping in response, it becomes able to be solved... and none of this will happen, since WotC usually doesn't errata cards without very, VERY good reason (*cough* Companions... *cough*). Not my idea, but a very good one!
I have never used diving top like that, I used it as an infinite draw mechanic by making artifacts cost less and letting me play the top card of my library.
I wonder if beacon of immortality got banned because it says target player and double or as I read it gain exact life total. there are quite a few ways to turn life gain into life loss plus you'd have those on the board long before getting the mana to play Beacon in commander.
Disagree hard with the notion that Top is a weaker card on the banlists. It’s way too good with fetches, and miracles/counterbalance become oppressive with it
In the mid-90s I used to play a RG deck where Turn 1 Taiga-Kird Ape was the typical first play with Ernham Djinns on turns 3/4 off Sol Rings/Mana Vaults etc. Was great fun.
My guess with Beacon of Immortality is not having a commander damage rule at the time and not being able to give non combo decks an out against infinite life
NGL, as someone who only started playing in the mid 2010s, I appreciate these lil' history vids
In 2004 Beacon of Immortality was more problematic than Ante cards, Chaos Orb or Power 9...
This was pretty interesting! Very surprised by alot of the picks. Well done!
One thing to remember about life gain is that Necropotence was a thing. Zuran Orb was basically trade a land to draw 2 cards.
I bet a big part of a few of these bans was Kird Ape-giant growth-berzerk-fork. Back in the day, that was downright terrifying, if hard to pull off
I like the new style of video. I really like modern content, but this is a cool style.
Omg Seth mentionning Beacon of immortality, bring me so many good memories. My first magic deck i ever bought like 16-17 years ago was a cleric tribal deck with 4 mother of runes,4 battletide alchemist, and many cleric card from scourge/onlsaught like battlefield medic,doubtless one, weathered wayfarer and 3 Beacon of immortality on it. That was during the time where i think the conflux block was being released and all my friend were playing upgraded version of the time spirals/lorwyn precon.
So basically we were a bunch of 13 years old, doing those crazy 6-7 players free for all games where like 1 guy was playing sliver tribal,1 elf, 1 goblin, 1 faerie, 1 fungus, 1 cleric and nobody knew what a boardwipe was and i kept winning by sitting in my corner preventing all damage, gaining a million life with beacon of immortality and then attacking with a 30/30 protection from whatever my opponent was playing.
After a while my friends decided that my deck was too strong and they decided to ban beacon of immortality from our playgroup because mostly of the shuffle back in the library effect allowing me to use an it average of 10 times per game XD.
Two things, I don't think top should be on the list. Yes I get that it got banned for slow play rate, but it also banned from legacy for it's ability to create soft locks too.
Second thing, the problem with Attune with Aether as Saffron Olive stated was the Energy and Attune was such a big enabler of that deck. That banning it at the time was reasonable because of how strong the deck was and the fact that wotc didn't print effective hate cards to it because Maro hates things that interact with poison or energy.
Top is an interesting one to debate. It wasn't banned for being too good (but for being too slow) but it's also not a bad card. I don't think I'd remove it from the list all together, but I would probably bump it down to the bottom of the list based on everyone's feedback.
A friend of mine plays an Italian Sword of the Ages in an artifact deck and it occasionally does things, which I always get a kick out of.
8:20 Having Mark Rosewater spend an entire podcast explaining that energy ISN'T a parasitic mechanic, and then talking down to people who use that kinda language is some of my favorite ironic magic content ever
(drive to work episode 856)
no way these dudes are calling the top one of the worst banned cards. I almost cut off the video there.
I think Beacon was banned because it shuffles back in, and with a 100 card deck, beacon can run the risk of both crazy life totals and extending the game through repeated shuffling
Juggernaut was actually powerful in the Ice Age - homelands - Alliances set. Creatures had gone way down in power, and it was easily possible to play it on turn 2-3. Being immune to "terror", it was harder to get rid of it and hitting a couple times with it was a real deal.
It was always a first pull in drafts back then.
Starting in Antiquities, you could even cast it turn 1 off Mox and Mishra's Workshop.
Also sol rings and dark rituals. Swinging for 1/4 of your opponents heath was easy to start in the early rounds. This card always seemed to help and win, especially with unholy strength attached to it..
Oh Senseis Divining Top... I still remember an Extended Tournament i was in and on the first round there was a mirrior match of two mono B control decks and, somehow, both had Top and Counter Balance in play... when turns was called by the judge they were still on the first match...
Beacon of immortality puts itself back in your library so it can definitely get into the "if you have no response you can never possibly kill me even though I have no win condition"
good video. I remember when nacatl got banned the modern format improved greatly until it was time to unban it
13:57 earned my like. Sick burn!
I like that the commander banlist is complete nonsense. It keeps the format fun casually.
What really blows my mind about Beacon of Immortality being banned in Commander is that 21 commander damage is still lethal. So it's not like it's gonna super drag games out or make it literally impossible to kill a player, like Ivory Tower could in the very early days.
Not every commander deck swings with their commander, especially the plainswalker commanders
@@MrXennhorn Planeswalker commanders weren’t a thing at the time it was originally banned
@@yesman12345ful Moreover planeswalker was not a card type yet either
I read in an old source, perhaps a Duelist magazine, that Juggernaut was supposedly a problem because Invisibility made it unblockable.
Man, I've played this game for 29 years and I never knew about Sword of the Ages!
Even as a little kid who thought Necropotence was a useless card, I knew that thing was trash. Maybe they banned it Because it's so bad. . .
man, It was such a joy playing with 4 necro back in the day.
It would have been fun to mention the alchemy "Juggernaut Peddler" which swaps your opponent's cards in hand for juggernauts and is super powerful
Seeing kird ape and Nacatl makes me miss my old Zoo deck. I ran it up to eldrazi winter when i completely stopped playing modern and havent gone back to it.
I remember Coco being one of the most busted cards printed for me
Zuran Orb nukes board states with Balance, Ivory Tower created a neverending Necropotence draw
I love that Divine Intervention exists because Yugioh had the exact problem with a card called Self Destruct Button, which did the exact same and caused the exact same problem.
WotC: "Destroy all Black creatures is a bad no-no card."
also WotC: "Destroy all nonwhite creatures is fine, tho."
Gotta be thorough, I guess.
Power 9 was probably banned after due to limitation of play
I use to play standard around the same time as energy, I never played it but I really like energy. It’s just such a neat deck to see. I’ve wanted to build energy in modern and pauper for the longest.
Some of these make a lot of sense for their time. Kird Ape, Juggernaut, Serendib Efreet...yeah, those were head scratchers in 1997 too. I remember when Extended came out and we didn't really understand the banned list for that.
Top 4 of this list was great. Many of the entries made no sense though for this list. Sensei's Divining Top is quite powerful.
I’ve seen Stone Throwing Devils in play. . . and Crusade and Jihad can crush opponents. One thing with the Top, is it’s hard to kill. lol, I doubt Divine Intervention was played in too many tournaments. You made it sound like it was frequently played.
beacon of immortality + false cure is a one-shot win. I used to have a deck based around that.
Although, it's more likely it just caused a lot of shuffles of large libraries.
Saw swords played in some Red-Green-Blue Eureka decks and Flare decks back in the day. By itself, not the best card by any means. But, activated after a BIG attack, it makes for a great finishing move esp. when playing with pump cards (like Blood Lust, Berserk, Giant Growth) and any power blue. ... Nobody played COP Artifact. ... 90s magic was crazy, stupid fun.
Yeah, I've been playing Magic since 1994 and I remember those days early on where the most effective decks were the ones that had few creatures in them if any at all. They were called "direct damage" decks and so instead of playing creatures that attack a player, you would play a lot of cards like Lightning Bolt, Disintegrate, Fireball, to directly hit players. For that reason red and black were considered the strongest colors. Creatures just seemed like a slow way to damage players, and they were easy targets for these direct-damage cards. Nowadays, with the popularity of Commander format where you start with 40 life i/o 20, it takes longer to kill a player with direct damage, and in the meantime players are bringing out more-powerful creatures than what we commonly had in the early days that can kill you before you can kill your opponent with direct damage. I remember coming back to playing Magic after a long hiatus and I played one of my old direct damage decks and got creamed. I had no blockers, and I couldn't kill the opponent's creatures fast enough with direct damage and so I didn't have enough direct damage cards left in hand to actually damage the opponent.
Zuran Orb was also synergistic with Balance when it was legal. If you could get a slightly better creature in play then you could sac your lands and cast Balance to win the game.