Our Turbo Predator 420 Gets MORE BOOST!
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
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A couple thoughts/suggestions from seeing others doing turbo single cylinders: Intake plenum volume should be 4.4X displacement of engine with single cylinders. More oil flow is required to protect the turbo bearings. The intercooler radiator is likely too restrictive, potentially resulting in the large temperature drop you experienced. Clock the turbo so the oil drain is pointed straight down. Close the gap on your spark plug a bit to prevent the spark from being "blown out". Use thicker head gaskets to reduce compression ratio and prevent grenading the engine (2vintage just blew up his 400EX). Use heavier valve springs if they are not upgraded already so that the boost does not push them open.
I was going to say the same thing on the radiator. I doubt its passing much boost through. They need a boost guage and do some testing to confirm.
ruclips.net/video/UYLly8J10GQ/видео.html
Turbos need oil pressure I believe. Which obviously correlates with flow and volume. But they need pressure to cool and somewhat suspend the whole works inside. I am unsure if they are using Journal bearing or Ball bearing turbos? Turbos should flow a lot of oil yeah.
All great ideas for further experimentation.
These boys have a long way to go on the turbo learning curve. On the upside, it's fun to watch them slowly and painfully climb that curve.
Agreed. You can create a temperature drop because the charge is actually being cooled or you can create such a restriction on the inlet that the outlet sees a massive pressure drop (and thus a temp drop). These boys have created the latter and discovered how an AC system works. Congrats?
Yep, but it's fun to watch their journey.
It's good to see them broadening their horizons and stepping outside of their box to finally do something different. Them learning how to do turbo based stuff and finally getting their hands into 2-stroke engines is good to see. It now gives them variety over the normal Predator/Tillitson builds. As fun as they are there's only so many times you can repeat the same thing before it eventually gets old. :)
@@stilsonian They should get ahold of a VW intercooler from a TDI beetle. They’re small and durable, and would be perfect for that size turbo.
Watching ike slowly work and make the call to leave the wornout turbo on it is almost painful lol
It is AMAZING to see where y'all are compared to working in John's Parents Garage, to potentially the Shed, to buying Property.
Great Job John & Issac! 👍
USA today #hitydesign
Who caught the flames shooting out at the end??
Hi
also replace the junk axel. no one wants a bumpy ass hurtin ride
😂🔥🔥💪👍👍👍🖐️
A trick I've seen used by an exhaust shop that could be useful for pipe bends and maybe others like flat bar, and square tube, anything metal really. Using a straight piece of thin gauge wire (dia of a coat hanger), bend it how you want your finished product to look, hold it on your material and bend it to match your wire. Trim to fit were you want it, weld it and Bob's your uncle.
My uncle Bob approves this message
While it's helpful it's a lot easier said than done . You're restricted to the radius of the dies in the Bender and the bend is flat .
Seen a video of an exhaust shop using this same technique with a hydraulic pipe bender with now issues, easier said than done?
journal bearing turbos need more oil pressure than boost pressure , needs at least 30psi
USA today #hitydesign
FYI, when you turbocharge a single cylinder 4 cycle engine, it has been determined that the inlet plenum should be 3 x the volume of the cylinder capacity. Counter intuitive I know, but the science has already been done 👍
I thought it was 4.4X displacement?
The turbo needs pressurized oil (30+ psi) not just low pressure oil.Otherwise the new turbo will stick wear out.
These cheap VZ21 turbos do not like high oil pressure. More than 5-8psi and you’ll blow out the oil seals and trash the turbo.
@@AppalachianMountainRiders They were originaly used on Suzuki alto works and other Japanese kei Kars with 660cc engines. They get 30-60 psi oil pressure but the have built in oil restrictors so I guess they don't need much oil pressure. But 5-8 psi isn't enough to tighten the clearences of the journal bearings.
USA today #hitydesign
@@georgetsichlis I’ve blown out three of them in my custom Pioneer 500 turbo build pushing 12psi....all within only 10ish miles...lol. Tho oil pushed right past the seals and past the induction impeller. I’m not saying that better quality RHB31’s won’t hold up to more pressure but the knock off VZ21’s from Amazon won’t. I’m only pushing around 7psi on my 4th and have over 200 miles with zero issues.
@@AppalachianMountainRiders That's a solid point, quality makes quite a difference.
Been watching Cars & Cameras for a long while. Charles makes an excellent addition to the team. Keep up the highly entertaining content.
I dont remember how long exactly myself but it's been a couple years minimum, and I'd agree, hes an awesome addition, good humor, great energy. They really seem to all 3 get along really well. Chemistry is solid.
He won’t be around when joe gets out of jail
@@donvito4884 joe mama?
Charles is definitely a great addition to the channel although his work ethic and attention to detail somewhat highlights Ike and Jons need to to put more time into detail. I know this channel has always been kinda “quick and dirty” but it’d be nice to see more super quality and detailed work all the way through
Joe exotic
You honestly should rebuild the rear axle to fix it. Also side note: Make the lil bridge over the creek a bit wider and make sure there aren't any chunks of rock sticking up out of the bridge too. So that you don't break another axle on something like this ridiculous three stooges machine.
That's the absolute BEST description and comment on RUclips.
That radiator is smaller yes but internally it will generate way more turbulence and thus reduce flow. At that low of boost and the compressor map for those turbos you will basically never heat the intake air enough to need an intercooler.
so do they just remove it then, and put it down to a learning experience?
internally there's not much difference between an IC and radiator, but the crossover tubes are much smaller restricting airflow. so that's where the heat is coming from. they'll need to do a flow meter test through the radiator to see if it's sufficient.
turbo uses exhaust so def they move hot stuff forwarded.
Evil me is 💯 percent. They have high octane fuel to make up for the temperature increase anyway. Even e85 and a cooler spark plug would be safe and may actually increase the output if it gets the correct jetting
@Kurt they would just make in that another one on that just cut it half and tig weld it close then its would work like a sharm
I feel like you guys should make a whole new turbo setup, this one has done what it needed to. And putting it on a V-Twin would mean more displacement and MORE BOOST AND MORE TURBO NOISES
Twin turbo, intercooled v-twin.
Do they make V bands that small?
ruclips.net/video/UYLly8J10GQr/видео.htmlur
@@edwardsdigital I have yet to see a fleshed out “proper” turbo build on a small engine
Next time that you bend another pipe fill it with wet sand. It will prevent it from crimping and folding. No need for the zebra weld bend that you have there ...lololol
(EDIT) use this method for super tight bends that would crimp or fold your pipes.
In many low boost applications there are rubber hoses designed for the boost side of a turbo for instance my 83 turbo diesel quantum engine is plumbed this way..much easier way for future builds :)
edit: it also wouldn't take much to put a remote pressure gauge up front to see actual boost that is being developed..be kinda kool..
MAN I’M SO HAPPY!!! I’ve waited for this video forever, keep up the great work guys!!!! Hoping to meet you all some day
Actually the capacity would be good, you would think there would be turbo lag but since it's a single clydiner it's not constantly making boost so you need space to bulid boost while it can then when the intake opens the boost will go in
So the radiator won't count as an 'expansion boost area'?This is a serious question,not a dig.I always thought the coolers equalized away from pulses to a stream?Of course there'll be pulsing,but the pressure shouldn't drop much between strokes?
Idk about other cars but some of the old Subaru rally cars had a “boost cylinder” which was basically a section of charge piping that was way bigger than the other piping.
That crank pulley is warped. Incase you didn't notice.
You guys should consider getting a tig welder. It has a bit of a learning curve but it's not too difficult to get good enough for what you'll need. Would really help out with thin metal and aluminum.
meh, i'd just like to see them use shielding gas instead of fluxcore.
@@vintagespeed Their other shop has a lincoln mig with gas. I guess they'll eventually move it to the new shop when they get done wiring. The tig would add additional capabilities though. Especially aluminum.
technically with a single cylinder engine the bigger the area of expansion you have the better the turbo works to a point as long as the area is bigger then a pint and no larger then 2 quarts as a size comparison you will get some boost about 8 to 10 lbs depending on RPM and turbo used. a small turbo is better for a single cylinder given the exhaust pipe size and the amount of exhaust pressure
Yeah, single cylinders need more plenum area.
A plenum inlet manifold might help
@@DarkLinkAD expansion volume
@@krakhedd I was too lazy to edit that
Listening to y’all try and rationalize the chop shop butchery work that you are replacing is internet gold 😂
I can’t decide which Charles line was funnier, “Annnd, there’s mud on the ceiling now”, or “You ‘tapped’ me into the WOODS, last video!” 😂
"The back end of this thing hangs way out when you're partyin" -Ike 🤣 🤣 🤣
On most turbos there is an oil return line that has an expansion tank on it. The oil returning is boiling! Great videos kids! The old Fart!
Yall should port that head you'd make more power and flow a bit more also yall got me fixing to build something turboed thinking a 4x6 that away I can Mudd with it and it will have irs gotta figure out how to build the spools for the rear ends
remember, if you have a turbo-charged vehicle on a trailer, cover the exhaust and intake so your turbo doesnt spin without oil........
You of course need a hard surface to run on, but you can use a dyno phone app to get some numbers for power and torque, before and after changes. You need to enter things like weight and gear/sprocket/drive ratios. But could be a way to easily test your stuff. A "Poor Man's" dyno. 😎
Reminds me of when I first subscribed!! Glad to see this thing back in action and made 10x better!
I Love Charlie. He is the comic genius you all need for extra success.
just throwing words around...
Love how often you guys post thank you for being consistent I can speak for everyone in saying we appreciate it!!👍
I'm not an engineer but putting the "intercooler" behind the hot engine is going to effectively do the opposite of what you want it to do it needs to be where it can get fresh cool air not hot air from the engine
The whole thing is pointless with a carburetor anyway.
@@letmehearthatguitarsqueal it's fuel injected
yes that pre-made pipe fittings is the most fast construction ever
I would probably think twice running that worn out turbo. It could potentially send metal into the engine and destroy it...
I don't think it will be flowing Enough air to push it through the intercooler and up into the engine .
That pump doesn't seem to push a ton of oil but I know in an automotive application an improperly sized restrictor on the oil inlet of the turbo can cause premature failure. Is there a restrictor on that lil spooly boy?
I don’t think that oil pump creates enough psi for the turbo bushings
In my turbo experience I believe you need more oil flow to the turbo. Not really more oil psi but more flow
A fun build! just a few tips.
your wideband sensor should be angled up. moisture will condense in the sensor currently and kill it fyi.
a large volume intercooler wont create that much lag and it will definitely cool well especially if you used the fan from the radiator on it.
"The back end of this thing hangs way out when you're partyin'. " Brilliant!
"And now there's mud on the ceiling!" LOL! Love your videos! Keep up the good work!
To really have that turbo last yall need to run the oil pump for a few minutes before you start it, notice how long it took for oil to go thru the turbo and drain
3:20 - when Charles is the one being safe, by inquiring as to the location of the fire extinguisher... 🤣🤣🤣
And at 17:18 when he drops a Leroy reference #HellYeahBrother
Very awesome guys! Killer build
You guys give "trophy cart" a new meaning.
Great video guys.... can't wait to see it run on the track...!!!!
With a little work a 390/420 air filter adapter will bolt onto the turbo inlet and only has a slight misalignment without port matching.
You should turn the intercooler into a wing
Colder Air. Shorter Piping. Looks Cooler.
you guys should have used the big intertooler, you need that space because its a single cylinder. The motor pulses causes the turbo to not spool smooth so with the extra vol it helps to fix that to have even flow into the motor using the big intercooler like a buffer.
4:23 "The back end of this thing hangs way out when you're partying" ... descibes a girl I knew ...
Not surprised with the turbo being shot. I went through 3 Amazon VZ21 turbos in my custom Turbo Honda Pioneer 500 build before I broke down and bought an IHI Rhb31. New turbo has about 200 miles on it right now and I was lucky to get 10 out of the cheapies...lol. If there is one area you don’t want to cheap out on it’s the turbo.
Just a idea put a turbo oil filter post turbo to keep pressure on the turbo. You can buy the bracket cheap and oil filter cheap. The bracket has a small hole that keeps the pressure up and will protect the turbo. The next thing is that a single cylinder pulses too much to make much gain with the turbo. If the turbo was on a 670 you'd make alot more boost by cutting the pulses in half. A charger would be best on a single single cylinder. Love your channel and videos. I'm glad you guys do this stuff.
I’d love to see the pre vs post intercooler boost pressure numbers to see how restrictive that repurposed radiator is with that small engine /turbo combo.
Looks good as long as u dont get rear ended
I remember watching that video years ago now when John welded that turbo setup laughing 😂 as much as he was
I would really like to see y’all do a garage walkthrough of all the projects on the property if that ain’t too much to ask. I’ve been watching yalls videos for 5 years and have watched every episode. Love yalls content!
Also, the less restriction on the inducer the better, and the down pipe should be no smaller than the exducer on the turbine. Just a couple tips.. restrictions in either side just make heat and drop turbo efficiency tremendously.
A shroud for the fan to rad would improve cooling, and a pressure gauge to measure boost would be some steps to take.
Interesting idea with the intercooler, seems to me all the hot air from the engine will go through it. A better location could be up on its side In front of the engine on either corner. Still an awesome build no doubt!!!!!!!
definitely not going to be cooling anything
USA USA today #hitydesign
You guys need a turbo Diesel and build a dually truck cart with full suspension and a lsd rear end . 🤷🏻♂️🤔
I always thought the intercooler went before the turbo. You learn something new every day.
It will act as a safety value too. Anything above 13-16 psi the radiator will blow up (coolant pressure)
I vote for 100 PSI on the next go round, maybe some sequentials in series?
Don't stop now, there is tons of headroom left. They actually do this with some racing diesels, and the spin up is hilarious. They sit there from idle at full pedal in neutral and the thing spins up about 100 RPM/ hour. Then eventually they get on the pipe, so to speak, and WOW. I'm not kidding, it takes many seconds to get up revs in some of them, like well over ten. Look at some of the truck dragsters if you don't know what I am talking about. I think literally 150 PSI in some cases.
Also, if you want to really minimize lag, have you ever seen the variable vane turbos. Pretty cool idea. At low rpm you can kind of think of it like spinning up a water turbine with your finger on the end of the hose greatly increasing exit velocity on initial spin up. I don't know if they make them, but I remember seeing them in some car magazine well back in the ole stone ages. Flintstones used 'em, IIRC. Hey, if they had dinosaurs for pets, why not...turbos for the feet.
Yeah, or rather no, I am not too sure swirling air in a pipe gives more flow...could be wrong, but offhand I can't think of a reason why it would. My guess would be it would lower the flow. Maybe missing something. At the output, where I'm guessing this tiny thread was, it would make absolutely no difference, it wouldn't swirl anything. I know, it was a joke. They intentionally make 'little tornadoes" in cylinders near TDC compression stroke, but that is for a reason. And that reason is to distribute fuel laden air to all parts of the cylinder as quickly as possible. I used to think, way back, that lots of advance in timing was preferable because you always saw it in high performance engines (70s time frame). I subsequently learned that what this really means is horrible cylinder mix dynamics. Oh well...
I had a kid, just licensed ask me if a hair dryer would work as a turbo. Probably something he picked up from some youtube idiot. Another one I did see that was really funny was a guy claiming to up the HP of his Honda 6X by halving the cam speed (or doubling it, don't remember, it had to be a joke, but he didn't present it that way). To my credit, and effort, I didn't laugh at the hair dryer question, and explained the relative levels of flow to him.
Piling up yard blowers won't work either, at least not for more than idle very slightly up. I actually saw someone try this, and the overall 1/4 ET was lowered, but not by as much as I expected. IIRC they said you could actually feel (hear?) some boost effect near idle, but most assuredly not at higher RPM. Funny attempt, but interesting, to some degree, at least. Sounds like something Garage 54 would do (hilarious antics, BTW, total idiots...not really, but most of the things they do definitely are). I often wonder who the hell comes up with those ideas because some of them are way out there.
I once 'fixed' and axle on a about a 2500 lb boat trailer (both) by heating it red and bending with about four feet of water pipe. And I mean the axle itself was bent, like the bearings were no longer parallel. Ran it into a curb that jumped out in front of me, one of those big square guys, and it was REALLY bent. I got it pretty darned straight, measuring with a few machining parallels, looking for light between, and it worked really well, for several years and a good bit of towing before I sold it. Doing it, I was thinking that it may be one of the dumbest things I ever did, but I guess not. Don't try that at home though...worked for me, no guarantee for you. Past performance is not indicative of future results, as all the investment firms say.
Love the 420 turbski build... didn't realize how many times it was modified 💪👊😎
Love the intercooler idea. I would NOT have tried to run that turbo again after seeing all the shaft play. That was most likely caused by your prior boost leaks. That can cause the turbo to overspool and completely roast the shaft bearing.
Oil drain is most likely too small of a diameter and the hot oil is back draining and causing pre mature wear on the bearings and when installing a new turbo always fill the chra with oil before firing. been watching you guys since day one keep up the great work and cool builds!
The intercooler should be out in cool air, you have it behind the hot engine. Don’t rev the engine then shut it off, will leave the turbo spinning without oil . But still love this build. 👍👍
Well with snow on the ground and being 32ﾟ I do not think it's gonna make much of an issue I think you'll see the real difference in the summer time. Have an excellent day
This was a great episode! I love this particular project, great content!
The "turn on the intercooler" joke made me laugh. 😄
You guys should put a stage two kit on the engine and put it on a proper racing frame to see what it’ll do
always great to hear some good pops at the beging of a video.
Actually, when you're turbocharging a single cylinder engine, you want a reservoir between the turbo and the intake port that is minimum 4x the volume of the cylinder. It smooths out the pulses and gives you more accurate fuel/air delivery. so that big intercooler would still probably be too large, but the 919 rad will bring you closer. You have to be careful running an intercooler with a draw-through carb turbo setup though, as it can condense the fuel out of the fuel air mixture and youll get fuel pooling in the intercooler and potential running issues. You may want to convert it to a blow-through setup or go full on EFI.
I think it has efi
"The back end hangs way out when you're partyin' " awww yeahhhh!! 😉
Turbos need more than oil. They need oil pressure to float the shaft. Without enough pressure, it will make contact with the copper/brass bearing and wear it out fast.
Turbo is fine.. when you have oil pressure to the journal the shaft will be floating on oil wedge.. play in the wheel is normal.
single cylinder turbos need a large intake volume otherwise there isn't enough air every time the cylinder takes a breath in. so that thicker intercooler would of been perfect. small boost pipe volume = boost - no boost - boost - no boost.
if it was a twin cylinder then it would have been fine. kind of like a boost battery
This^^^^^
I've only said this on every video they have done turbowise
The coolant chambers equal about 3-4x the volume of the cylinder,so once it's running then the pressure should be good.It seemed like it was running well.I'm not being snide,it's a question too.Thanks for answers if you do.(I want to do similar).
Also you need too have the oil fill and oil drain on the turbo perfectly level that will make everything last longer. And that goes for every size turbo.
11:20 Lol Change the oil and No cold Revs!!! Also the excessive vibration after the turbo mount broke lol
So now take all of this off and put it on the new 459cc Predator 😂 With either engine, might want to upgrade the valve springs to help the intake valve fight against the boost as it closes.
Head work, cam, billet bottom end, etc. would make this thing come alive. Curious to see a dyno chart of this engine.
So stoked on the turbo!!!
I have to say it. I'm definitely a fan of the vintage snap on jacket ike has been wearing.
130 lbs? Man, I thought I was skinny, but I got 90 lbs on Charles... Keep up the great work guys!
For the record turbos need a lot of oil flow to work like their intended to. You might try something like a windshield washer pump or something similar in conjunction with an oil intercooler. It might be a pain in the butt to implement but it will save you numerous headaches in the future.
That's a little low flow for oiling the turbo. That took way to long to go less than 2 feet. Put another pump on there with the original and you will have sufficient oiling for a turbo. Remember that turbo doesn't just have the heat from the bearings that the oil is drawing away but also the heat being transferred into the turbo from the exhaust. On a car you're getting a high flow of oil so it doesn't burn but is also cooling down the turbo.
Not trying to be preachy, but I would like to see you guys get some kind of welding blanket to lay over flammable things. A company I worked for had rolls of a fiberglass matting that worked really well.
Hopefully we will see the axle and the clutch pully shaft fixed. That thing wobbles soo bad lol
I have a really cool build you guys should try. Build a gocart with something like a predator 212 that runs on propane. It would be cool if you could use those coleman camping propane bottles.
It's not just the turbo that builds pressure it has to do with the motor as well the exhaust
Next episode we need to see the difference in short version of this and the long version.
You should get the cheap eBay turbo rebuild kit. It won’t be professionally balanced but it will work for a go cart.
Hi. Cant you put the air cooling radiator somewhere else. Because when you are driving the buggy. The heat from the engine could be going into the radiator, and when you turn the fan on you could be pulling more heat through from the engine
That thing is going to be much more quicker! Please......change out the rear axle because I think the wobbly bent axle is going to be holding back this limo's full potential. The smiles that the limo ignites are just too awesome, don't risk those great moments of satisfaction by skipping the axle repair....maybe even consider one those baby differential axles to really get a more challenging experience...Love That Limo..!
From what I understand if your volume between the turbo and cylinder is something like 2and a half times the volume of the cylinder is ideal. For a single cylinder engine. Also I don't know if you guys have a restrictor after the turbo drain. A small little hole helps build good oil pressure in the turbo.
What? No! The restrictor goes BEFORE the turbo to reduce the amount of oil flow. You do NOT want oil pressure inside the turbo or it's going to leak past the shaft and burn oil.
@@hybiepoo yeah my bad your rite.
Once it's done you should revert it to the 1 seater and rip it around. I bet it would be a rocket!
Anybody knows whats the plan with the totaled miata in the background? Always great to watch the boys do what they have been doing always, but cool to see diffrent ideas and new solutions to problems form the guys! Great job, keep up the absolute gold content!
Awesome job guys!! 👏
Be safe and drive CARELESS!! ✌🤙😜
Been here since 100k subs! Great channel keep up the great work! 😀☺️
It's sort of fun to watch you guys goofing off trying to gain more power with that turbo. when there was no flow testing done, the fact is you can only stuff so much air though a tiny intake port. and there are some other discrepancies involved with this this and any turbo project on any small engine. you have to look at the efficiency involved with this project. let's say the engine originally produces ten HP. and adding the turbo increases that to thirteen HP. that gives you a net increase of three HP. now factor in the weight of all the parts and pieces that were required to complete the project. let's say that was twenty-five pounds. and factor in the amount of power it's going to take to operate the fan on the intercooler. let's say that would take one quarter of one HP to do that. it simply comes down to the math which at this point we can't. because it hasn't been confirmed that the turbo is creating any boost at all without any way to measure that. and it hasn't been confirmed that the turbo is creating any HP increase at all without any way to measure that. ie a dynamometer but once that were achieved we have to go back to the previous numbers that I mentioned. which were 10+the turbo=13-1/4=12 3/4 brings the figure to 12 3/4. then factor in the twenty five pounds of weight added to complete the project. and what that will take away from the total number. let's say that would be another one and a half of a HP. back to the math 12 3/4 - 11/2=111/4. which leaves us with a figure of a net gain of a 11/4 HP and that was being generous. so basically the whole project is mostly for fun and not a significant HP increase. but it's fun to goof off.
Starte the Oil pump for the turbo early.. so its all lubed up befor spinning
You guys need to do compound turbos with that thing. It would be so cool!
The famous words that cleetus mcfarland made a couple years back when he rode Leroy turn the intercooler on his steering wheel a sign that said turn intercooler on!!!
You guys should all run a lap in your choice of kart in every video. Say, in the morning. That’d wake y’all up and it’d be super fun to watch.