One thing I’ve seen with multiple separated grounds wires is when a circuit board has multiple power wires coming in and multiple grounds coming out and all usually something like 22 gauge. What the designer is trying to do is separate the current load and keep within the spec of the 22 gauge wire. Being you tied all your trace grounds together on the board the thing that you’re risking is that if you drop a couple of grounds wires, say because the connector goes bad, then all your current will flow through a single 18 gauge ground wire and if it’s not capable of handling that current load you could overheat that wire and starting a fire before a fuse can blow. Not really an issue with Pinball machines, especially being you’ve strapped that board to the back box with another dedicated ground wire. Also, loving that super clean Fluke! You made my day. That’s been bugging me for so long, but I didn’t want to say anything without at least trying to help.😊
Having a clean multimeter is like showing up on a job site with clean boots and a shiny new reflective vest. People are like, “you don’t do this often”. 😂😂
The big cap on the sound board probably helped to keep noise out. The sideways transistor with the Zener diode and other surrounding components is basically the same as one of those 78xx voltage regulators, only less precise. The higher voltage on your dc circuits is likely to be caused by replacing the lightbulbs with leds; they use less amps so they draw the voltage down less. Whenever i hear you say something with "sucka" it reminds me of the "I'm gonna git you sucka" comedy from the late 1980s. Maybe that's where you got it? Anyway thanks for posting; great video as always!
@Ron I HATE those circuit boards with the feed through holes. Here's a tip to remember - install a piece of buss wire in the hole and solder both sides. I have chased many intermittent problems and found that the foil inside the hole that connects top to bottom has a crack. It will test good with a meter, but under power that crack will open. Sometimes it will work great on the bench, but as soon as you re-install the board and tighten the screws, it will bind/twist the board enough to open that foil.
Clean grounds are a big part of issues in anything "electronic" In the tractor business so many new players went round in circles with fancy laptops telling them things were broke for days but never considered the ground points or testing them. Only to find it was as simple as cleaning them and stuff worked again. Painted ground points from the factory were also an issue. Great video again Ron.
@@LyonsArcade my meter has gotten almost as filthy as that before I cleaned it.. Battery changing time is usually when I do a really good scrubbing on it.
Great job as usual Ron, but your gonna have a hell of a time with those electrical taped harnesses. My dad worked for Rockwell International making axels and steering knuckles in a steel mill. Every time I see that Rockwell logo, I think of him. 😎
The factory ground scheme you describe sounds like a "star point ground system" and it is used on spacecraft! ... BUT, spacecraft use $5,000 gold plated connectors with a life limit on the plug/unplug cycles allowed, sometimes as low as 20 cycles. Lower noise immunity IF all the connectors are sound, clearly not suitable for card edge connectors in a hostile invironment. Good mods Ron.
I can see them keeping it off the chips but keeping it off the transistors that are identical seems a little over done to me.... Thanks for watching thebigmoose2237!
Yeah thats Bukka T from WWE :) Ronnie I am a electronic tinker, even taken some courses at a local Community College to try and get a better overall understanding of electronics. The courses were great mostly theory, a little hands on but for me a lot was missed. Watching videos like yours really does make some of the stuff that is over complicated in class make a whole lot more since. Good stuff Ronnie, thanks! LOL I had to edit the post I called you Donnie, yeah I watch him too. :)
I didn't really think about that but I think you might be correct... hell it's all working so I guess it isn't too important. Those poor LEDs though might burn up!
Hey there Joe nice to see that your alive and doing well, may God smile upon you and your family brotha always , you and your brother Donnie and prayers for all the people of North and South Carolina 🙏!
I do circuit board design and, except for special cases, I put a ground plane on at least one layer (side) of the board and all the grounds from all the components are connected to the one massive ground plane. Doing this allows everything to have the same ground reference and these kind of issues don't happen.
They had separate ground connections because of the voltages (or really the currents) involved. The current flow is different for the relay components then for the IC components on that board. Think of it like a garden hose vs. a firehose for water flow. In theory, the relays would have a thicker wire on the wiring harness to the ground connection to the actual ground. When you have the 40v vs 5v signals, and you combine the ground channels like you did, its possible you are now allowing a much larger current (fire hose level of flow) to return to ground through a ground channel wire that is the equivalent of a garden hose. That could heat up the smaller wire and cause your IC ground to burn up/fail when it handles the current from the larger relay switch. I'm guessing they used the same gauge of wire in the harnesses involved and any ground can handle the load since it is working, but you should pay attention to the wires on the harness when using this fix and just make sure they can handle the current flow involved
Voltage out of a bridge is around ac voltage in times square root of 2 minus two diode drops. This will vary a bit under load. Thanks for turning shango066's handle into a verb. The transistors that switch inductive loads (coils) would benefit from a separate ground, as you minimize the possibility of 'ground bounce' getting back into the logic via the logic ground.
Yes at least someone got this before I did regarding the DC output of the bridge rectifier circuit. Not sure if there is any filter caps on those or not if it is just straight-up rectified but no smoothing / filtering can throw things Askew a bit as well and of course if any bed caps for filter caps and screw with things as well although chances are voltage will be lower unless of course shorted Cavs 4 bad enough that pulls enough current to blown fuses obviously if the Caps are shorted it would pretty obvious! I have actually been around a lot of older equipment enough to know there's some pretty interesting things going on is older stuff. The long time ago had gotten ahold of a lot of pipe organ power supplies which word didn't convert it into shop power supplies. Had an off of one power supply and tell realize just how big the thing was and how much power not the compliment but the input it would require! At that point we will not have enough service entrance capacity to even turn the thing on let alone with the rest the load of the house still was on 60 amp service! Essentially that thing would have required a range circuit even run possibly need to be hardwired either 50 or 60 amps can't remember. Real Beast had been intended for carbon Arc projection! But have been modified numerous times over for general-purpose! One of the power supplies did fix up real nice had a 0 to 15 amp M which was Rosa from an old school x-ray machine. There's no way that wasn't getting used! What's the lowest value car confuses of that size I've ever seen as well Supply could do well over 20 amps however cartridge uses a 2:00 amps ceramic fuse holder don't know how many years old thing was built into the quintessential black painted box with wire mesh chassis. Old-school turnlock had the original cord amplug not even grounded! Heather Andreas pendants original live plugged into receptacle somewhere Church in an organ chamber! They worship our supplies but they often referred to as rectifiers which is actually incorrect. Massive selenium full Bridge rectifiers. Had quite a few so which got the modern rectifiers installed since they were kaput don't worry already been removed yeah well could have been pretty stinky otherwise
Another big plus for the Flukes, is that you won't blow them up (or the part being tested) if you mess up and have the meter on the incorrect setting for the measurement you are trying to take (ie. checking for 240VAC with the meter set on diode)
That's true too... they're just worth the extra money in my opinion and i'm the type that doesn't usually buy expensive. I guess really though, there's even more expensive than Fluke....
@@LyonsArcade With most test equipment, you can go crazy if there's features you need to have. I sell used and vintage test equipment as part of my day job. the really amazing stuff doesn't make it into my hands.
@@LyonsArcadeoff-topic kind of. but suggestion regarding following the individual videos worth the order of which might be helpful 2 and 1st 2nd and 3rd or similar sometimes hard to keep up with which is which occasionally sure others would appreciate as well if this is feasible especially when watching all the way through anyone setup videos on specific machine or otherwise
26.65VAC, when rectified, becomes 37.6VDC with no load. So that checks out when there's no load. Once a solenoid or two are being driven I'd expect to read a lower voltage. Same with the lamps. Once it's driving most of the lamps, the lamp voltage will fall to the expected range. But if it's driving LEDs, it's going to maintain a higher voltage. The transistor circuit on the sound board is a very simple voltage regulator, fed by a half-wave rectifier (the diode). Output voltage should be about 13.5V.
AC voltages are report as RMS (route means squared). They do this so the power calculations are constant with DC measurements. The peak of the AC voltage is the square route of 2 higher or 1.41 higher. It's the peak voltage not the RMS voltage the diodes process.
Sound board: Possibly they have replaced the capacitor with this big one because they had some humming problems with the sound. Normally the higher this load capacitor is, the better. But: the higher the capacitor is, the higher is the initial current when turning on the machine to load the capacitor. So, my guess, this small diode could not handle this big current after turning on the power.
Floating or bad grounds will always cause issues with multi-board systems. It's best to tie them together unless you need to isolate them in a circuit for a specific reason.
Absolutely correct on grounding for sure ran into this while times that was the issue the various devices. Even sometimes on 120 volt AC at least used to be probably still is for some cases especially if using these things like smart switches that are designed for winter is not a neutral level for obvious reasons. Sometimes if there was no AC Brown you have problems. Loose grounding even could give issues. Even back to the day some things did have down from ground even work properly even some fluorescent lights here and there. Saying some weird cases while so that it wouldn't work but if you even touch the bulb it would work about 50% of the time you'd have to do this sometimes every time. Saw a couple fixtures a incandescent bulb was the ballast instead of the magnetic ballast old-school for sure. Even saw one or two that was meant to have this plus additional incandescent sockets so as fun moon Nation if the temperature is below a certain temperature and the faucet will not start or come up to full brightness. Not to be confused with ones that would have a incandescent bulb for an emergency lighting circuit Charlie's oftentimes in buildings that had multiple sub-basements Usually was a long tubular bulb fairly thin piano lamp or picture lamp but much longer and slimmer usually frosted bulb pretty sure these were 120 v potentially even on DC one reason why is it stated on compact fluorescent not for use in emergency fixtures since there were some systems that used 120 volts DC for backup also seen plenty of systems that one bulb would be on one hot like the other would be on the other since that was the only back up in some fixtures back in the day old school
Once the AC is rectified, the DC voltage will be approximately 1.41 times higher. So the 26VAC going in will be around 36VDC. Minus the two diode drops of the bridge, looks about right.
@LyonsArcade It will also read much higher on a multimeter with out a load on the circuit as well. I work on several power supplies that read almost twice the DC voltage with nothing but the multimeter as a load.
Some of those ground tabs don't look like they have any rub marks on them so they were never grounded and should not have worked ever? That is a crazy design. Only reason I can think of is not wanting to use heaver gauge wire so needed to spread out the current over multiple wires, but the way that is normally done is to have something like 5 pins in a row all connected to a common ground for the entire board, spreading them out and isolating them makes no sense.
The LED's could be causing the voltage to jump up also. LED's use less power, so there would be less load on the 6V line, which could make the whole thing jump up higher as less load is on the lighting circuit. Tapping the transformer at 130 could definitely help compensate for that.
Great repair video as always Ron. I've had a question regarding grounds that you mentioned in both videos so far. Can you run a grounding cable or strap from the head to the main cabinet, or is there already one there? I just thought it was weird that it would be possible that all the grounds are not tied together.
There is one doing that... basically there are ground wires everywhere that all go back to the bottom strap, but if any of the ground wires loses continuity you get issues. The green wires in the backbox go down to the strap in the bottom though, yes.
The cabinet grounding on the old Gottliebs usually isn't a problem. The problem is they aren't properly tied together which is made worse by the grounding relying almost entirely on card edge connectors (the System 1 and System 80's other Achilles heel) to tie the grounds to the power supply.
The problem looks like the edge connectors. Oxidized non-gold plated. That is why the other people soldered direct. The design was done in it's day for service calls. Change of board and cables mostly fixes the problem.
Just wondering if you had filled the via`s with solder would that have fixed the ground issue....great mods for sure to get those grounds tied together.
Would the repining of connectors fix this grounding problem? Will have to wait until next video to see how bad they are. And by cleaning dirt off your meter is like blowing the dust off monitors, it's the only thing holding it together.
24:15 that phrase I got you sucker. I do believe that was from a team from mr. T if I'm not mistaken. By the way I remember watching both the Animated Series and the live-action version back in the day really good show think these live-action was a bit better but to each their own
you know I have had issues with Via's before... to fix it I soldered a short piece of wire in the via and soldered it on both sides of the board... this only works for two sided boards because with multiple layered boards... you can't be sure if buried planes / layers are connected (they often use ground planes now in boards)
Consumer and automotive electronic systems have to pass a huge amount of government testing requirements. Besides other things, they cannot emit high frequency electrical noise to affect other nearby electronics. In turn they cannot be affected by high frequency electrical noise from others. This causes all sorts of extra filters, ferrite beads, and single point grounds only at the power supply.
I think you're right and also when you get someone like Rockwell who was doing very important stuff at the time, they probably over designed it to the point that it would work great if it had the constant maintenance and service budget NASA could afford but not so much a lowly pinball operator who wasn't even going to wipe the playfield down!
Hello, Just wanted to introduce myself. I own Docent Electronics, over 30 years. We sell replacement cables and connectors. Also electronic parts for pinball and video games. Our gottlieb connectors are used and shown on TNT repair videos. We carry the full line. Hope we can be of assistance to the group.
That ground pin on J4 looks a bit suspect, all the other connections have wear marks but that one looks untouched. At least the board has had another way of getting ground added.
I wonder if they have separated the grounds, to keep something like interference from multiple devices effecting each other. Like radio interference causing codes on automotive computers. I think like Ron. Ground is ground. Just wondering.
I'm sure they are trying to keep the OV used on the chips away from the 'ground' used on higher voltage parts of the circuit. The problem with joining them all together is that if something happens to allow the main 'ground' to float then if something in the higher voltage area goes short to ground its gonna fry a lot of logic chips.
If I recall correctly, "I got you Sucka" appears in the movie, I'm Gonna Get You Sucka. Towards the end of the movie. But yes, Booker T would say it back in the day.
i wouldn't even say the fluke is the required aspect, so much as it is just getting good product, vs some $3-4 cheapo. i have a brymen i should probably replace the battery on thats just as accurate as my fluke. and its got a larger lcd, so i tend to go to that one more often.
The reason my videos do so well, is that the people who know what they're talking about usually have bad social skills and make horrible teachers, so normal people don't really learn anything from them. You're a good example of that. You claim to enjoy the videos but you can't resist making a snide remark mocking me. You probably do this to everybody in your life, and it's likely caused you lots of problems over the years in your relationships with others, becuase you just have to let everybody know, that you know better than them. Please go watch somebody else's videos, I don't need your negativity and mocking, demeaning comments on mine. Thanks!
@@LyonsArcade apologies text does not always convey the true meaning of the statement. I legit am impressed and enjoy how well he repairs these devices. His scope of Knowles’s covering both EM and solid state machines is equivalent to the volume of knowledge of any electrical engineers I know. So I am truly impressed that he has this knowledge without technical training. Again I do apologize as this is literally the opposite of what I meant. I truly enjoy his videos. They are much better than the other channel with the nearly identical name. So I don’t get flamed on that statement. His videos are ok but Joes videos are better.
sorry I can't trust that he knows what he is doing with electricity until its dirty again just like never trust a carpenter with a new tool belt with new tools.
The only thing I hate about my fluke meter is it’ll shut off in continuity checker (beep) mode too early and fool me into thinking I don’t have continuity and I’ll look over and sure enough the damn meter turned off on me! 😤
I can see why they did the grounds like that, but the design oversights ruined the whole point. That's a star ground system which is designed to isolate the return current of the sensitive components from the high power components. Using a lighting circuit to drive a coil, especially with voltages that far out of spec, will cause the ground at the transistors to float up until they reach an equilibrium current that's too low to pull in that relay. Tying the grounds together like that will work as a quick fix, but you risk having an even worse ground as the closed loops can have current induced in them by nearby wires and end up with all sorts of wacky voltages in different places (Look up ground loops. It's a whole can of worms that throws people for a "loop"). Ideally, you would want to lift the emitters of those transistors and build a brand new ground bus above them using probably 10-12awg stranded wire, keep the logic ground mod but on a separate 16awg wire, bring another 10awg wire from that ground plate below up into the back box, and tie all of the grounds you have at that point together there (mpu, pay, solenoid driver logic, solenoid driver transistor, and main ground). Doing the grounds that way would prevent all major ground loops and possibly even help with the voltage situation over all.
Saying Rockwell screwed over Gottlieb is an understatement. I'd argue that Rockwell ultimately put Gottlieb out of business because their flawed designs (System 1 and System 80) destroyed Gottlieb's reputation to the point where operators didn't trust Gottlieb pinball machines would be remotely reliable. Wizard's World in Fort Wayne is one of the largest all pinball arcades in the world, and they basically refuse to put Solid State Gottlieb pinballs on the floor. The owner hates them because as a kid growing up he remembers them never working. The tech says that he can't get them to stay running. The owner is one of the best people I've ever met, and the tech is a damn good tech. They will HAPPILY put Gottlieb EM's on the floor, and they do have some of those on the floor. I'm still trying to talk them into buying a Haunted House and letting me bulletproof it for them (I had one on location several years ago and it ran with no issues for 2 years straight before I pulled it and put it back in my home). I'm hoping they will take me up on the offer someday because I'd LOVE to see a few of the System 80 games on the floor there. Still, you would think that as crucial the grounding is that Rockwell wouldn't have screwed up the grounding as badly as they did. It's a shame because I think Gottlieb would have survived longer if the operators hadn't lost trust in them. Great job fixing another classic Ron!
Yeah it's a shame. I think they run very well after the ground mods are done, even the System 80's which arguably have much worse ground problems but if the Tech or the owner just aren't into them I can see where it would be a hassle. The Gottlieb Solid State games are my favorites of the 80's even with the issues. Operators were burnt pretty bad on them though....
Everyday I work on a billion dollar plus "thing" designed by Rockwell. I see lots of bizarre, weird, and poorly designed circuits all the time. I do know that alot of the stuff I work on was Sub-contracted out with Rockwell's name still on the end item.
This was absolutely fascinating. I know very little EE and I followed it all. Thank you, as usual. My favorite quote: "Don't worry, people. It'll get dirty again." And as someone already pointed out, I'll bet the "sucka" reference is to this movie -- a total classic and a must watch. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_Gonna_Git_You_Sucka
ONE. STUPID. WIRE!!! A Star Trek analogy comes up -- Mr. Scott, after sabotaging the USS Excelsior (Star Trek III) -- "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain!" Engineering 101 = Keep it simple, stupid!
One thing I’ve seen with multiple separated grounds wires is when a circuit board has multiple power wires coming in and multiple grounds coming out and all usually something like 22 gauge. What the designer is trying to do is separate the current load and keep within the spec of the 22 gauge wire. Being you tied all your trace grounds together on the board the thing that you’re risking is that if you drop a couple of grounds wires, say because the connector goes bad, then all your current will flow through a single 18 gauge ground wire and if it’s not capable of handling that current load you could overheat that wire and starting a fire before a fuse can blow. Not really an issue with Pinball machines, especially being you’ve strapped that board to the back box with another dedicated ground wire. Also, loving that super clean Fluke! You made my day. That’s been bugging me for so long, but I didn’t want to say anything without at least trying to help.😊
Having a clean multimeter is like showing up on a job site with clean boots and a shiny new reflective vest. People are like, “you don’t do this often”. 😂😂
The big cap on the sound board probably helped to keep noise out.
The sideways transistor with the Zener diode and other surrounding components is basically the same as one of those 78xx voltage regulators, only less precise.
The higher voltage on your dc circuits is likely to be caused by replacing the lightbulbs with leds; they use less amps so they draw the voltage down less.
Whenever i hear you say something with "sucka" it reminds me of the "I'm gonna git you sucka" comedy from the late 1980s. Maybe that's where you got it?
Anyway thanks for posting; great video as always!
@Ron
I HATE those circuit boards with the feed through holes. Here's a tip to remember - install a piece of buss wire in the hole and solder both sides.
I have chased many intermittent problems and found that the foil inside the hole that connects top to bottom has a crack. It will test good with a meter, but under power that crack will open. Sometimes it will work great on the bench, but as soon as you re-install the board and tighten the screws, it will bind/twist the board enough to open that foil.
Clean grounds are a big part of issues in anything "electronic" In the tractor business so many new players went round in circles with fancy laptops telling them things were broke for days but never considered the ground points or testing them. Only to find it was as simple as cleaning them and stuff worked again. Painted ground points from the factory were also an issue. Great video again Ron.
Good job cleaning the meter.. I hadn't said anything but it was bugging me too. :P
You're a class act, keepin' your opinion to yourself and all :) Thanks for watching TexanWolverine!
@@LyonsArcade my meter has gotten almost as filthy as that before I cleaned it.. Battery changing time is usually when I do a really good scrubbing on it.
Great job as usual Ron, but your gonna have a hell of a time with those electrical taped harnesses.
My dad worked for Rockwell International making axels and steering knuckles in a steel mill. Every time I see that Rockwell logo, I think of him. 😎
I'm gonna fix those harnesses!!!! Here we go!!!
Having seen you do all of this work I can officially say "It's less broke!"
The factory ground scheme you describe sounds like a "star point ground system" and it is used on spacecraft! ... BUT, spacecraft use $5,000 gold plated connectors with a life limit on the plug/unplug cycles allowed, sometimes as low as 20 cycles. Lower noise immunity IF all the connectors are sound, clearly not suitable for card edge connectors in a hostile invironment. Good mods Ron.
I can see them keeping it off the chips but keeping it off the transistors that are identical seems a little over done to me.... Thanks for watching thebigmoose2237!
Obviously, Joes's dignostic was pretty correct ( it was broke .. :D ). Nice fix Ron ! That one was not simple ;)
I always thought you were well grounded Ron.
I guess you proved that you were not.
🤣
Glad you got ground problem sorted out.
Yeah thats Bukka T from WWE :) Ronnie I am a electronic tinker, even taken some courses at a local Community College to try and get a better overall understanding of electronics. The courses were great mostly theory, a little hands on but for me a lot was missed. Watching videos like yours really does make some of the stuff that is over complicated in class make a whole lot more since. Good stuff Ronnie, thanks! LOL I had to edit the post I called you Donnie, yeah I watch him too. :)
One thing about changing to led lights. The load on the GA lamp circuit will be lower thus the voltage will be higher and maybe in this case TOO HIGH
I didn't really think about that but I think you might be correct... hell it's all working so I guess it isn't too important. Those poor LEDs though might burn up!
Hey there Joe nice to see that your alive and doing well, may God smile upon you and your family brotha always , you and your brother Donnie and prayers for all the people of North and South Carolina 🙏!
Very interesting video Ronnie. …I’m just glad there ain’t gonna be a test! Great work to figure all that out.
We're trying to fix this sucka
Thanks for another great video. Truly enjoy each one you and Joe do!
Thanks for watching, We appreciate it!
I do circuit board design and, except for special cases, I put a ground plane on at least one layer (side) of the board and all the grounds from all the components are connected to the one massive ground plane. Doing this allows everything to have the same ground reference and these kind of issues don't happen.
Great video Ronnie... Thanks! I bet you're looking very forward to re-pin ing all those lovely connectors! See you on the next one. ✌️
Wow, A New Fluke Meter - Naw Ya'll - Cleaned It...Thanks, Joe...Stay Safe...Stay Strong...
They had separate ground connections because of the voltages (or really the currents) involved. The current flow is different for the relay components then for the IC components on that board. Think of it like a garden hose vs. a firehose for water flow. In theory, the relays would have a thicker wire on the wiring harness to the ground connection to the actual ground. When you have the 40v vs 5v signals, and you combine the ground channels like you did, its possible you are now allowing a much larger current (fire hose level of flow) to return to ground through a ground channel wire that is the equivalent of a garden hose. That could heat up the smaller wire and cause your IC ground to burn up/fail when it handles the current from the larger relay switch. I'm guessing they used the same gauge of wire in the harnesses involved and any ground can handle the load since it is working, but you should pay attention to the wires on the harness when using this fix and just make sure they can handle the current flow involved
All the wires are the same size
Voltage out of a bridge is around ac voltage in times square root of 2 minus two diode drops. This will vary a bit under load.
Thanks for turning shango066's handle into a verb.
The transistors that switch inductive loads (coils) would benefit from a separate ground, as you minimize the possibility of 'ground bounce' getting back into the logic via the logic ground.
Yes at least someone got this before I did regarding the DC output of the bridge rectifier circuit.
Not sure if there is any filter caps on those or not if it is just straight-up rectified but no smoothing / filtering can throw things Askew a bit as well and of course if any bed caps for filter caps and screw with things as well although chances are voltage will be lower unless of course shorted Cavs 4 bad enough that pulls enough current to blown fuses obviously if the Caps are shorted it would pretty obvious!
I have actually been around a lot of older equipment enough to know there's some pretty interesting things going on is older stuff.
The long time ago had gotten ahold of a lot of pipe organ power supplies which word didn't convert it into shop power supplies.
Had an off of one power supply and tell realize just how big the thing was and how much power not the compliment but the input it would require!
At that point we will not have enough service entrance capacity to even turn the thing on let alone with the rest the load of the house still was on 60 amp service!
Essentially that thing would have required a range circuit even run possibly need to be hardwired either 50 or 60 amps can't remember.
Real Beast had been intended for carbon Arc projection!
But have been modified numerous times over for general-purpose!
One of the power supplies did fix up real nice had a 0 to 15 amp M which was Rosa from an old school x-ray machine.
There's no way that wasn't getting used!
What's the lowest value car confuses of that size I've ever seen as well Supply could do well over 20 amps however cartridge uses a 2:00 amps ceramic fuse holder don't know how many years old thing was built into the quintessential black painted box with wire mesh chassis.
Old-school turnlock had the original cord amplug not even grounded!
Heather Andreas pendants original live plugged into receptacle somewhere Church in an organ chamber!
They worship our supplies but they often referred to as rectifiers which is actually incorrect.
Massive selenium full Bridge rectifiers.
Had quite a few so which got the modern rectifiers installed since they were kaput don't worry already been removed yeah well could have been pretty stinky otherwise
Another big plus for the Flukes, is that you won't blow them up (or the part being tested) if you mess up and have the meter on the incorrect setting for the measurement you are trying to take (ie. checking for 240VAC with the meter set on diode)
That's true too... they're just worth the extra money in my opinion and i'm the type that doesn't usually buy expensive. I guess really though, there's even more expensive than Fluke....
@@LyonsArcade With most test equipment, you can go crazy if there's features you need to have. I sell used and vintage test equipment as part of my day job. the really amazing stuff doesn't make it into my hands.
@@LyonsArcadeoff-topic kind of.
but suggestion regarding following the individual videos worth the order of which might be helpful 2 and 1st 2nd and 3rd or similar sometimes hard to keep up with which is which occasionally sure others would appreciate as well if this is feasible especially when watching all the way through anyone setup videos on specific machine or otherwise
OMG you cleaned your meter😂. I thought it was a new one before you mentioned it.
26.65VAC, when rectified, becomes 37.6VDC with no load. So that checks out when there's no load. Once a solenoid or two are being driven I'd expect to read a lower voltage. Same with the lamps. Once it's driving most of the lamps, the lamp voltage will fall to the expected range. But if it's driving LEDs, it's going to maintain a higher voltage.
The transistor circuit on the sound board is a very simple voltage regulator, fed by a half-wave rectifier (the diode). Output voltage should be about 13.5V.
AC voltages are report as RMS (route means squared). They do this so the power calculations are constant with DC measurements. The peak of the AC voltage is the square route of 2 higher or 1.41 higher. It's the peak voltage not the RMS voltage the diodes process.
Sound board:
Possibly they have replaced the capacitor with this big one because they had some humming problems with the sound. Normally the higher this load capacitor is, the better.
But:
the higher the capacitor is, the higher is the initial current when turning on the machine to load the capacitor. So, my guess, this small diode could not handle this big current after turning on the power.
To add to the ground off the board. Solder a wire in the via by the edge connector pin. The via hole has a very light layer of copper in it.
Floating or bad grounds will always cause issues with multi-board systems. It's best to tie them together unless you need to isolate them in a circuit for a specific reason.
Absolutely correct on grounding for sure ran into this while times that was the issue the various devices.
Even sometimes on 120 volt AC at least used to be probably still is for some cases especially if using these things like smart switches that are designed for winter is not a neutral level for obvious reasons.
Sometimes if there was no AC Brown you have problems.
Loose grounding even could give issues.
Even back to the day some things did have down from ground even work properly even some fluorescent lights here and there.
Saying some weird cases while so that it wouldn't work but if you even touch the bulb it would work about 50% of the time you'd have to do this sometimes every time.
Saw a couple fixtures a incandescent bulb was the ballast instead of the magnetic ballast old-school for sure.
Even saw one or two that was meant to have this plus additional incandescent sockets so as fun moon Nation if the temperature is below a certain temperature and the faucet will not start or come up to full brightness.
Not to be confused with ones that would have a incandescent bulb for an emergency lighting circuit Charlie's oftentimes in buildings that had multiple sub-basements
Usually was a long tubular bulb fairly thin piano lamp or picture lamp but much longer and slimmer usually frosted bulb pretty sure these were 120 v potentially even on DC one reason why is it stated on compact fluorescent not for use in emergency fixtures since there were some systems that used 120 volts DC for backup also seen plenty of systems that one bulb would be on one hot like the other would be on the other since that was the only back up in some fixtures back in the day old school
good morning Ron Joe
Good evening, how’s it goin?
Once the AC is rectified, the DC voltage will be approximately 1.41 times higher. So the 26VAC going in will be around 36VDC. Minus the two diode drops of the bridge, looks about right.
That was my math too, but the manual acts like we're incorrect....
@LyonsArcade It will also read much higher on a multimeter with out a load on the circuit as well. I work on several power supplies that read almost twice the DC voltage with nothing but the multimeter as a load.
Some of those ground tabs don't look like they have any rub marks on them so they were never grounded and should not have worked ever? That is a crazy design. Only reason I can think of is not wanting to use heaver gauge wire so needed to spread out the current over multiple wires, but the way that is normally done is to have something like 5 pins in a row all connected to a common ground for the entire board, spreading them out and isolating them makes no sense.
The LED's could be causing the voltage to jump up also. LED's use less power, so there would be less load on the 6V line, which could make the whole thing jump up higher as less load is on the lighting circuit. Tapping the transformer at 130 could definitely help compensate for that.
Great repair video as always Ron. I've had a question regarding grounds that you mentioned in both videos so far. Can you run a grounding cable or strap from the head to the main cabinet, or is there already one there? I just thought it was weird that it would be possible that all the grounds are not tied together.
There is one doing that... basically there are ground wires everywhere that all go back to the bottom strap, but if any of the ground wires loses continuity you get issues. The green wires in the backbox go down to the strap in the bottom though, yes.
The cabinet grounding on the old Gottliebs usually isn't a problem. The problem is they aren't properly tied together which is made worse by the grounding relying almost entirely on card edge connectors (the System 1 and System 80's other Achilles heel) to tie the grounds to the power supply.
The problem looks like the edge connectors. Oxidized non-gold plated. That is why the other people soldered direct. The design was done in it's day for service calls. Change of board and cables mostly fixes the problem.
Awwwwwww u cleaned your mollie metter
Rockwell? The guy who sang “Somebody’s watchin me”? Lol! Just being stupid. You all have a great weekend!!!
I believe that was Barry Gordy's son! Featuring Michael Jackson of course
I trust my life with my 87v !
Diodes only allows current to flow in one direction. Used to go from AC to DC or to prevent reverse current flow that could damage IC's.
Just wondering if you had filled the via`s with solder would that have fixed the ground issue....great mods for sure to get those grounds tied together.
Wasn't 'I got you sucker' MrT (from the A Team) ?
Great video ron
"Why get a fluke?" Because theyre the best lol
Preach it brother
@@LyonsArcade you get what you pay for
Amen!. Can't beat a Fluke
Would the repining of connectors fix this grounding problem? Will have to wait until next video to see how bad they are. And by cleaning dirt off your meter is like blowing the dust off monitors, it's the only thing holding it together.
24:15 that phrase I got you sucker.
I do believe that was from a team from mr. T if I'm not mistaken.
By the way I remember watching both the Animated Series and the live-action version back in the day really good show think these live-action was a bit better but to each their own
you know I have had issues with Via's before... to fix it I soldered a short piece of wire in the via and soldered it on both sides of the board... this only works for two sided boards because with multiple layered boards... you can't be sure if buried planes / layers are connected (they often use ground planes now in boards)
Bridge rectifier shorting would blow caps or fuses as AC would be going to the filter caps
Consumer and automotive electronic systems have to pass a huge amount of government testing requirements. Besides other things, they cannot emit high frequency electrical noise to affect other nearby electronics. In turn they cannot be affected by high frequency electrical noise from others. This causes all sorts of extra filters, ferrite beads, and single point grounds only at the power supply.
I think you're right and also when you get someone like Rockwell who was doing very important stuff at the time, they probably over designed it to the point that it would work great if it had the constant maintenance and service budget NASA could afford but not so much a lowly pinball operator who wasn't even going to wipe the playfield down!
Hello,
Just wanted to introduce myself.
I own Docent Electronics, over 30 years.
We sell replacement cables and connectors. Also electronic parts for pinball and video games. Our gottlieb connectors are used and shown on TNT repair videos. We carry the full line. Hope we can be of assistance to the group.
That ground pin on J4 looks a bit suspect, all the other connections have wear marks but that one looks untouched. At least the board has had another way of getting ground added.
I wonder if they have separated the grounds, to keep something like interference from multiple devices effecting each other. Like radio interference causing codes on automotive computers. I think like Ron. Ground is ground. Just wondering.
I'm sure they are trying to keep the OV used on the chips away from the 'ground' used on higher voltage parts of the circuit. The problem with joining them all together is that if something happens to allow the main 'ground' to float then if something in the higher voltage area goes short to ground its gonna fry a lot of logic chips.
You know they're all tied together in the bottom of the cabinet, right?
If I recall correctly, "I got you Sucka" appears in the movie, I'm Gonna Get You Sucka. Towards the end of the movie. But yes, Booker T would say it back in the day.
Maybe Mr T!
Pity the fool who doesn't know The A Team!
Both of yall might enjoy this:
ruclips.net/video/fdJ0TDM7Kvg/видео.html
i wouldn't even say the fluke is the required aspect, so much as it is just getting good product, vs some $3-4 cheapo. i have a brymen i should probably replace the battery on thats just as accurate as my fluke. and its got a larger lcd, so i tend to go to that one more often.
I believe the git u sucker might be from the movie.
I'm gonna git u sucker
The ground kind of moves up or down or fluctuates. It’s fun watching someone so amazing at this but who doesn’t even know the basic terms.
The reason my videos do so well, is that the people who know what they're talking about usually have bad social skills and make horrible teachers, so normal people don't really learn anything from them.
You're a good example of that. You claim to enjoy the videos but you can't resist making a snide remark mocking me. You probably do this to everybody in your life, and it's likely caused you lots of problems over the years in your relationships with others, becuase you just have to let everybody know, that you know better than them.
Please go watch somebody else's videos, I don't need your negativity and mocking, demeaning comments on mine. Thanks!
@@LyonsArcade apologies text does not always convey the true meaning of the statement. I legit am impressed and enjoy how well he repairs these devices. His scope of Knowles’s covering both EM and solid state machines is equivalent to the volume of knowledge of any electrical engineers I know. So I am truly impressed that he has this knowledge without technical training.
Again I do apologize as this is literally the opposite of what I meant.
I truly enjoy his videos. They are much better than the other channel with the nearly identical name.
So I don’t get flamed on that statement. His videos are ok but Joes videos are better.
don't worry it will be dirty again!
I'm workin' on dirtying it up right now
sorry I can't trust that he knows what he is doing with electricity until its dirty again just like never trust a carpenter with a new tool belt with new tools.
Rockwell build taximeters to along with halde and Argo-vdo when they started to change from mecanical to electronic same type of board
I got you now sucka that’s from Sanford and Son lol Hey Great Video
The only thing I hate about my fluke meter is it’ll shut off in continuity checker (beep) mode too early and fool me into thinking I don’t have continuity and I’ll look over and sure enough the damn meter turned off on me! 😤
I can see why they did the grounds like that, but the design oversights ruined the whole point. That's a star ground system which is designed to isolate the return current of the sensitive components from the high power components. Using a lighting circuit to drive a coil, especially with voltages that far out of spec, will cause the ground at the transistors to float up until they reach an equilibrium current that's too low to pull in that relay. Tying the grounds together like that will work as a quick fix, but you risk having an even worse ground as the closed loops can have current induced in them by nearby wires and end up with all sorts of wacky voltages in different places (Look up ground loops. It's a whole can of worms that throws people for a "loop"). Ideally, you would want to lift the emitters of those transistors and build a brand new ground bus above them using probably 10-12awg stranded wire, keep the logic ground mod but on a separate 16awg wire, bring another 10awg wire from that ground plate below up into the back box, and tie all of the grounds you have at that point together there (mpu, pay, solenoid driver logic, solenoid driver transistor, and main ground). Doing the grounds that way would prevent all major ground loops and possibly even help with the voltage situation over all.
You know they're all tied together 2 feet away in the bottom of the cabinet, right? So they're not separate they just ran separate wires.
I would probably put a chime box back in it too.. The beep boards sound horrible to me. LOL I'm old... get off my lawn!!
This. That sound board is terrible compaired to chimes.
What do you mean by "Back in it" it never had one
@@LyonsArcade lol.. I meant put it in.
Saying Rockwell screwed over Gottlieb is an understatement. I'd argue that Rockwell ultimately put Gottlieb out of business because their flawed designs (System 1 and System 80) destroyed Gottlieb's reputation to the point where operators didn't trust Gottlieb pinball machines would be remotely reliable. Wizard's World in Fort Wayne is one of the largest all pinball arcades in the world, and they basically refuse to put Solid State Gottlieb pinballs on the floor. The owner hates them because as a kid growing up he remembers them never working. The tech says that he can't get them to stay running. The owner is one of the best people I've ever met, and the tech is a damn good tech. They will HAPPILY put Gottlieb EM's on the floor, and they do have some of those on the floor. I'm still trying to talk them into buying a Haunted House and letting me bulletproof it for them (I had one on location several years ago and it ran with no issues for 2 years straight before I pulled it and put it back in my home). I'm hoping they will take me up on the offer someday because I'd LOVE to see a few of the System 80 games on the floor there. Still, you would think that as crucial the grounding is that Rockwell wouldn't have screwed up the grounding as badly as they did. It's a shame because I think Gottlieb would have survived longer if the operators hadn't lost trust in them. Great job fixing another classic Ron!
Yeah it's a shame. I think they run very well after the ground mods are done, even the System 80's which arguably have much worse ground problems but if the Tech or the owner just aren't into them I can see where it would be a hassle. The Gottlieb Solid State games are my favorites of the 80's even with the issues. Operators were burnt pretty bad on them though....
I am pretty sure I got you sucker was from the A-team
Everyday I work on a billion dollar plus "thing" designed by Rockwell. I see lots of bizarre, weird, and poorly designed circuits all the time. I do know that alot of the stuff I work on was Sub-contracted out with Rockwell's name still on the end item.
The movie was "I'm Gonna Git You, Sucka!" from the 1970's.
+1
Yodelayheehoo
Hello Lil Everette!
The government uses the lowest bidder.
Lol it’s from the movie I’m gunna get you sucka 😂😂😂😂
What do you call a cow with no legs? Ground beef.
All I have for you is yikes.
This was absolutely fascinating. I know very little EE and I followed it all. Thank you, as usual. My favorite quote: "Don't worry, people. It'll get dirty again."
And as someone already pointed out, I'll bet the "sucka" reference is to this movie -- a total classic and a must watch.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_Gonna_Git_You_Sucka
ONE. STUPID. WIRE!!!
A Star Trek analogy comes up --
Mr. Scott, after sabotaging the USS Excelsior (Star Trek III) -- "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain!"
Engineering 101 = Keep it simple, stupid!
...I think it's a variation of I'm Gonna Git You Sucka! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_Gonna_Git_You_Sucka
I think you're right!