A few pros and cons of thrusts in historical sword duels
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- Опубликовано: 27 авг 2016
- Just a quick video for those who are interested in some of the basics of sword fighting. This applies both to one-handed and two-handed swords (as well as certain polearms).
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Развлечения
"Thrusts are...pretty straight forward" - Skallagrim von Liechtenauer-Senpai
I think you mean "sensei" x)
*scribbles notes*
this thread made my day
+hjorturerlend ne, he meant senpai ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I see his *point* there.
"But your arm is gone!" "No it isn't"
Tis but a scratch
it's just a flesh wound...
Y
What are the pros and cons of ending your opponent rightly?
Pros:
-Memes
-Humiliating your opponent
Cons:
-Overused
-Your opponent will come at you regardless and slice you
Pros: end them rightly
Cons:
"honourable sudoku"
Pro: Sounds more sexual than plain ending him.
Con: could forget to unscrew pommel and thusly throw entire sword at opponent. Leaving you only a shield and spear.
pros: everything
cons: nothing
"A line is the shortest distance between two points" Haha! In your limited euclidean worldview maybe!
i think he meant "straight line" . . . and it is true
The shortest distance is actually a spiral. Wrap your head around that one.
+NeoVoodooChild I see what you did there
NeoVoodooChild Yeah . . . . no it isn't
Are we applying SJW logic to the laws of physics now?
I guess that's why being armed with a defensive secondary weapon like a shield or parrying dagger is a great combo with thrusting swords. It worked really well for the Spartans.
I just a notification on my phone that only read: "the pros and cons of thrust-" after a quick chuckle I was pleased to see a skallagrim video at the end of that link.
just received a notification*
try thrust but hole
+ZorroDood "Amazing chest ahead"
In short, Praise the Sun! :P
"Amazing chest ahead, so try two handed"
There is one disadvantage that is especially great in lunges that is also present in thrusts. Thrusts and especially lunges can leave you very vulnerable in an engagement against multiple targets, because it can leave you on an unmaneuverable and vulnerable footing to attack by another target. I believe W.E. Fairbairn discussed it in more depth in his manual on fighting with the Fairbairn Cobra knife.
Nice and tidy basics video. Great job Skall
Awesome video! Glad to see you back training again. Wanna see more videos of you demonstrating techniques and principles! :D
I love your videos, skall , you're the best!
Hey Skall -
I wouldn´t consider this as "pro and cons" - it´s just simply showing what a thrust is in theory and then the important thing how to APPLY this ABSTRACT into swordplay.
Many Dog Brother lessons I visited had this principle - abstract move, training to learn the machanic, adapt the abstract for practical use.
In the beginning I wanted to write "Skall - that´s not how to thrust in a swordfight." - but then you exactly explained why.
I learned from a reconstructed Lichtenauer based HEMA school here in germany exactly the same you showed here.
One is "learning the body movement" and then "applying in combat".
Great to see you back with Swordplaying, altes Haus ^^
Very nice, enjoyable and informative, Skalla. Keep up the good work :)
Can you do more of these live explanation please? Seeing the people moving as it is explained really helps.
Ah, very insightful! There were several interesting points that hadn't occurred to me, great video as always Skall ^_^
I'm a newcomer to your videos and I have enjoyed all that I have watched. Please keep them coming. Best wishes.
Good vid Skall, keep up the good work.
The working out has been paying off Skall. You look great.
its so cool that you guys can do that and thanks for the cool vid.
I really enjoy the location your at. it really stands out
great video and oh man you lost so much weight im so proud of you skall!
Nice video, love what u do!
Good to see you recovered enough for HEMA Skall ^_^
Please make more this kind of videos, please.
While you may not be able to do a proper swing from a forward guard (presuming you don't have time for a molinello), you should be able to do a push cut if the opportunity avails itself.
Stewart is a damn good sparring/training partner. You both know your Shit well. Keep it up.
another quality video, as always.
skall is looking leaner that's awesome !
Cool demonstration :)
I would love to see a video on the practicality (if there is any to be had at all) of the Infinity Blade and the Vile Blade from the Infinity Blade mobile games
Hey Skallagrim, love your channel.
I have a question. What would be the advantages or disadvantages to having a sword, that instead of tapering towards the tip, flared instead?
Example being, how animators seemed to draw Trunks sword from Dragon Ball Z.
Can't wait for more videos.
I generally thrust more often then not if you get my meaning :D
im talking about my penis
Yeah, we get it...
+Connor Shaw-case WHAT! I didn't know
why
leave
Your hair is so god damn amazing Skall
"Thrusts are very straightforward." Literally.
great video
more vids like this please
i just got a synthetic baskethilt broad sword, so i would love to see some techniques and demos.
can you tell me where to get the sword the guy on the right is using? great video, as always :)
Excellent
I do believe that the thrust/stab was usually used as the "coup de grace". Unless we are discussing shield and sword or other forms ie. rapier ex. The author of this vid. is giving us an expansive view of the pro/con. As such we should take the well grounded tips and see if they will work in your style of fighting. Thanks for the tip '-)
I'm a practitioner of traditional Filipino martial arts (that actually teach weapon based fighting first, because it's more ideal) and there's an old saying that goes "slashing ends fights, stabbing ends lives"
Obrigado pelo vídeo!
Penso que o estoque está mais para uma técnica de oportunidade do que uma técnica incisiva.
good choice of clothing, skall
I know how to conceal my belly. :) It keeps getting smaller though.
+Skallagrim good well done on losing it i rly should start to now too
Good for you dude, we're all so proud of you!
GJ Stewart.
Interesting video. I don't completely agree with the notion of thrusts being less safe than strikes however; (For reference, me and my clubs' main focus is on german longsword in the medieval period, things like Danzig and Ringeck etc. since you do Meyer, our findings might be different) you can execute a thrust very safely if you, whilst stabbing, move your sword to the upper-left in a winding-like motion; any retalliation-cut will then be caught on your crossguard.
This also works when stabbing from a lower position, although it will take some more time compared to a thrust from ochs/vom tach. This kind of winding can be done from almost any meisterhaw, especially the ones coming from the shoulder to around-face level like scheitel, krump and zornhaw.
This is backed up by the text and imagery in the glossa we study, for instance: "Mark the War, that is, the Winding and the work with the point that goes from there to the four openings, and drive it thus: when you hew in with the Wrath-hew, then as quickly as he parries, drive up well with your arms and Wind the point of your sword above in to the upper opening of his left side." (Pseudo-Peter von Danzig, on the wrathhew/zornhaw)
But besides that point, very interesting and informative video, especially considering the sidestepping with a normal diagonal cut; I've never seen that within the medieval sources, except when executed at the same time with a krumphaw or zwerchhaw. Thanks for making me learn something (again) :)
You are right, but most of the thrusting I do tends to be towards people in a right ochs or vom tach, in which case the most likely immediate reaction will be a diagonal strike to my head, which winding into ochs can protect. You could also do a schnitt or even close in into wrestling if winding isn't good enough :)
Can we get mace vs sword vs axe (if you haven't done that already), pointing out their strenghts and weaknesses?
Skall, what do think of the trick weapons from Bloodborne?
im wondering that would it be good idea to have a spear (with a wooden stick (or body idk)) and then have a head of a warhammer in the other end so that you can flip the spear around and fight with other end and if the spear gets snaped in half you would be able trow the spear head away and now fight with a regular warhammer. or would this make the spear too unbalanced to handle? and be useless.
Thanks Stewart
Apologies if you've already been asked this and answered, but have you tried out Of Kings And Men? It has a combat style similar to Mount and Blade, but a bit more in-depth and extremely immersive I'd say. Would love to hear your thoughts on it.
I'm also curious about what he thinks about oKaM, such as the accuracy of the stances and the advanced blocking/parrying mechanic.
what are these swords your useing in this video they look like they would be great for sparing
Are there any problems after killing enemy with thrusting attack ? Like, hard to pulling off that sword from their body, or collapsing body pulling your sword and make you off balance ?
it all depends on what weapon you are thrusting and/or cutting with. So its a bit more complicated than that. A knife doesnt have stopping Power in the Cuts for example, some weapons are better at cutting and the Cuts from them stops more than from others etc
Stab wounds are still hard to deal with. A client of mine who is a surgeon told me that wounds created by a kitchen knife are harder to deal with than wounds created by a 9mm handgun.
Hi, I really like your chanel and have some questions. We can see escrime in the olympics, and i was wondering why only one handed thrusting techniques were used. Is it because of the rules, is it because of the swords alllowed in there ? Why is there only escrime in the JO ? Would it be ok to manipulate a saber with 2 hands (even if it wasn't optimal) in this context ?
Not gonna lie, Skall. You've got that Gary Oldman Zorg hair.
From what I've heard there are many accounts of dudes with rapiers running each other through in duels because they both did uncovered thrusts at the same time, and according to George Silver (I think) it was far more likely to happen with such a dedicated thrusting weapon compared to if they had been using cut&thrust swords.
Hey Skallagrim i've been practicing some Kenjutsu and in a Kata there is a thrust in the chest, the katana is suppose to go between the ribs, but i wonder how easy is that to achieve of if is even possible at all- pd:Sorry for the bad english
Is this the extra long version of the black fencer longsword ?
+Skallagrim what is that sword you are using here?
What do you think of detatchable swords?
nice, thanks
How's your shoulder recovering so far, Skall? Hope it's going well.
I want to see skal do a vid on Nioh and see how historically accurate it is
I just want to say that i really like how your sparring partner nods in agreement after almost every sentence you say.
This is for some odd reason a big eye-catcher. lol
Speaking of thrusting, do you know where I can get a rapier?
what do u think of hook swords
I've always preferred cutting, especially with broadswords and sabres. However I have a thing for smallswords, not sure why.
Skall where'd you get that sword?
in the north where everyone wears layers upon layers of wet wool, a point beats the edge (europe)
in the south where people wear less clothing, and different and lighter fabrics, then edge beats point (japan, thailand etc)
Funnily enough, a lot of the historical masters hated thrusts. Duels fought to the first blood with backswords usually ended with a slashed face or mangled hand; duels to the first blood with rapiers ended with a death. Silver especially despised the rapier and thrust-oriented systems.
***** Used them, yes. But if you read Silver's manuals, the thrust are pretty heavily de-emphasized compared to his Italian colleagues of the same period.
Duels with epee to first blood end woth someone getting their arm snip by an epee.
What are your opinion on sais?
"Bah 'tis but a flesh wound." -Dark Knight (Monty python and the Holy Grail.)
There is little more to thrusting than you said, but this was great for a short video.
Question: How likely is an actual dismemberment in a sword fight? I imagine it'd depend a bit on the sword and the power of the strike, but I don't think it'd be common to actually cleave all the way through bone and flesh. Even less likely, I'd guess, if the victim was wearing any kind of armor, as that would slow the blade, even if it did cut through, right?
How's your knee doing? I remember you getting a knee or some other leg injury earlier.
makes sense
That under cut/thrust combination looks like some kind of technique used in samurai movies (7 samurai anybody?).
A quick question, can I cut like he described it really cut throught a whole leg or both arms? becouse bone and flesh are pretty sturdy.
With a well made blade and solid technique, yes, absolutely.
+Skallagrim pretty crazy to think about
There was an archaeological find where a man had both his legs cut off in a single strike.
how does that work?
how did they dig something out the ground and come to that conclusion?
+Rhydonflame Watch skallagrims video "debunking the myth that European swords were dull"
Did you get your shoulder fixed?
Random pommel joke. Seriously though, great vid Skall!
Sick haircut dude!
1:38 I heard some cracking there. Is your knee ok, Skall?
Those were just some branches and pine cones on the ground.
***** Ya, sounded like it. Sorry, was just a little worried after all the trouble with your knee and shoulder.
Alpha PHENIX
Thanks for the concern. :)
Skall, I've seen many comments before about movies and how in them swords "clash" a lot, and in real life they wouldn't do that because swords would break a lot. However, that seems to be the opposite in many videos I've seen. Swords seemed to have touched quite often. So do they mean something different by this, or is it simply not true?
A clash in media is usually portrayed as a reverse tug of war: push the other guy over with raw power. A clash in weapon martial arts -- often called a bind -- is instead a complex game of leverage and angles. Rather than pushing through a central point with raw power, you attempt to navigate around each other's blades. The person with greater leverage in a moment actually needs comparatively little raw power.
Hope that made sense xD
Is it that easy to cut a leg or arm off?
With proper technique and blade alignment, yes it is very doable. Swords are VERY good at cutting through things with proper technique and blade alignment.
I have a video idea kind sir. Can you explain the effectiveness of a chainsaw in combat? Techniques? With all the zombie killing games and movies the prowess of the chainsaw is legendary in dispatching the undead, but is it myth or fact? I'd like to know and I believe you have the answers.
I'm guessing since he's moving his arms like that his shoulder is feeling better. Also you've shown us a bunch of swords movements including movements with a sword and shield and half swording with armor.
My question is, say if your opponent disarms you and you cant get your weapon back, what would be the best course of action (with and without armor/shield)?
I would also like to see if there are historical shield movements for either parries, better blocks, or combat. This would be ranging from large roman like shields down to bucklers.
Lastly what ways are out there to deflect an attack and counter? For example dagger(s) vs sword, how would you deflect or parry a swing from a sword and counter? Or spear vs a war hammer or a glaive.
If anything these are back up video material if you run out of ideas.
"say if your opponent disarms you and you cant get your weapon back, what would be the best course of action"
You say grace and ask for mercy praying that he spares you. The person has a big advantage against you; in fact, he decides whether you live or not. Hence, why you never want to get close to the other fencer or do something stupid.
If you have a shield, different story.
"Lastly what ways are out there to deflect an attack and counter?"
There is the parry then riposte, beat parry then riposte, parry expulsion then riposte, parry then riposte with a transport, parry then riposte with a croise, parry then riposte and disengage around their parry, counterattack, and etc.
For dagger vs sword, you always want to be the attacker and covering the sword with your dagger. It's best to stay out of the fencer with the sword's range by being in a range where they need to advance and lunge.
Cuts and thrusts go hand in hand, and you need both, but at the same time there are swords designed more for one than the other. Rapiers can cut, but they probably wouldn't cut very deep, if at all. I suppose the cuts could be used as a parry if you needed it?
not only as a parry, after you get your blade pushed out of the line you could use that momentum to start a cut to bring it back in line or actually hit your opponent.
What type of sword were you holding Skallagrim?
it was a custom designed practice sword of his kreigsmesser
That kriegsmesser looks nice as fuck, i'd love to get one too one day.
Hey Skall, what can you say about the Warhammer chainsword?
probably too heavy to wield :/
Weight is not the problem, it is carried mainly by Space Marines in power armour, but it would not work because it would probably jam on shit, the teeth would get blunt a lot and fuck up the mechanism, the chain could get jammed and then fuck up the engine of the thing... it is just a bad weapon in reality, but a pretty cool weapon for a sci-fi board game pc game book killing machines.
Meriadoc Gunson It does... it is just a chainsaw with bigger teeth and a different grip.
I recall someone did a long video with tests on ballistics targets that showed that Chainsaws in general would be awful in combat. They cut down trees- not people. As soon as you have a fleshy thing with clothes on it- it would take a long time to cut deeply- it would have a mental impact and be scary as fuck, but acctually getting attacked by a chainsaw, much less likley to be lethal than most weapons.
Protton I was considering it for real life with normal people, not space marines. Space Marines don't even need power armour to use their weapons. They are both augmented and genetically engineered to be VERY strong (and tall).
One word: Abziehen! Und zwar sauber! :D
You don't need to run him all the way through to the crossguard before "abziehen".
Beard for president !
Can't imagine people actually fought with swords and other steel weapons, it feels so odd after we're now accustomed to them as history artifacts or hobby pieces.
How would armour effect this
Similar to the concept of a covered thrust, aren't there strikes that simultaneously parry and attack? I can't remember the name of this strike, but in response to Stuart's attack at 0:51 I've seen people use a horizontal strike at neck height. This simultaneously hits the flat of his blade to knock him off-course, and takes the throat.
Regardless tho, I suppose the takeaway is that all these maneuvers have immense worth -- situationally.
Zwerchhau. (Prounounced "Zverk how" )
Just a quick comment on the beginning when you said there is nothing physically stopping him from continuing the cut...I gotta say the pain would, and that's pretty physical. Imagine being run through when you go to pull your sword up. Unless you have insane willpower and pain tolerance chances are you're going to convulse in pain, lose the grip of your blade and drop it. If you catch the with a thrust on the downward swing the same thing. The pain would most likely make them convulse and lose their grip completely throwing off the edge alignment and dropping the sword. If that convulsion doesn't make the sword drop away from you it would lose a lot of its power because while gravity will do stuff, it was also with the help of the strength of the arm of your opponent.
I mean, normally when you experience pain you convulse and usually drop something, knock something over, lose your grip on whatever you were holding, instantly grab for the hurt area, pull away from the pain, etc.
So I wouldn't say there is NOTHING to stop that attack because pain can cause quite a shock to the system, and unless you're able to control yourself to the point of being able to force yourself through it then chances are they'll lose the grip on their weapon because of it. Of course it is all dependent on the person.
And as the video says, there is always a time and place to use one or the other (slash or thrust). Definitely a good quick info video though.
Talk with basically any martial artist that knows their stuff, and they will tell you relying on pain alone to stop an opponent is an INCREDIBLE risky and unreliable venture in the best of scenarios. People have varying degrees of pain tolerance, even without accounting for the adrenaline that is going to be pumping through you during a life or death duel, making you even LESS likely to notice the pain until after you've delivered your counterblow. You never rely on pain alone to stop someone from hurting you.
This is, incidentally backed up by historical accounts of which there are numerous cases where an individual would be killed by the person they had just dealt a lethal wound to, without the receiver being notably impeded by their fresh injury. You can also see it in modern day-- there are cases of people being fatally shot or stabbed, and STILL going on to take their assailant down, before keeling over and dying in the aftermath. In fact if you go on down the comments on this very page you'll see an example of someone who actually WAS impaled in sparring, due to a poorly made practice sword snapping and impaling him through the flank who fought on for several exchanges before he even realized he'd been injured.
These are not exceptions, and are closer to the rule. In the heat of battle, sources can tell us that it is NOT uncommon for someone to be mortally wounded and not even notice until some time afterwards, when their adrenaline has died down.
So no. Expecting your opponent to stop his swing from the pain is a recipe for your head being split open like a melon.
KatakiDoragon I wasn't saying it was common, but it isn't uncommon. Nor was I saying you should rely on it. I was simply stating that he said there is NOTHING stopping them at all. Which is somewhat of a lie because pain CAN stop them. I'm not saying it will 100% of the time, but it IS a factor that CAN happen and so there is SOMETHING to stop them.
That was my point.
So yes, adrenaline can definitely pules through your system and your body would most likely ignore fatal injuries for a while until it finally realizes "Oh shit, I'm injured. Fuck."
I was not denying that. Just bringing to light that there is that chance and it CAN happen, so there being nothing is just not true.
And as you said, pain tolerance is different for everyone. Which I also brought up as well. Though saying specifically "everyones pain tolerance is different" was probably in a version I erased when trying to get my words across properly. But I did bring up pain tolerance. So I agree, everyones tolerance is different.
I would imagine that if you were pierced through the heart, despite the adrenaline kicking in and all that you would most definitely feel it and convulse, or even a lung since that hampers your breathing almost instantly and is fairly easy to notice as you let out breath to try and bring the sword down it would most likely send a sharp pain through your system. Though I suppose if your adrenaline is that high it wouldn't make much of a difference until your body realized, but I imagine it'd have to be pretty high to ignore a thrust through the heart or lung.
I was definitely NOT saying you should rely on it though. Just that it is a factor. That's all. It's not something you should rely on. Though I will say that in that situation they showed you could step into your opponent after the thrust. You'd be under their arms and not their blade. I mean, I'm no expert but I'm sure there are factors of skill and knowing how to get out of the way of that strike afterwards. There are many factors when it comes to swordfighting, or fighting in general.
***** If that was mid-strike they should not even be thrusting.
In the video though he thrusts as he pulls the blade up. That's not exactly mid strike.
Still, either way in fights there are many factors, and pain is a factor. It might not be overly common, but it's still a factor is my point.
Nikushimi_Zero Okay. Pain CAN stop them. You know what else could stop them? Suddenly being struck by lightning or suffering a spontaneous heart attack in mid-swing.
But I wouldn't bet my life on that happening.
When discussing the "There's nothing to prevent them from making an attack", we're talking about reliable means of preventing them, not an: "If you're lucky" scenario.
KatakiDoragon ***** Well, again. I wasn't saying people should rely on pain. I was just stating that it is a possibility because you don't know the state of the fight or how high on adrenaline they are nor their pain tolerance. :| Well then, definitely wasn't expecting so much sass.
I wasn't even saying you should take the risk. He just said "There's nothing stopping them from striking you" when there is indeed that which could stop them. That and if you were to move in with the thrust (getting under their strike) you could stop the downward slash and avoid it as you thrust.
Obviously like the video stated there are right times and places for thrusts and slashes and choosing when to do which is what makes the fight. I never said you should rely on anything 100%. :|
plus a spear reach. its hard to dodge and deflect if the sword is concealed in the shield.
I was wondering if there were any h.e.m.a. Techniques that would work well with a katana or other eastern weapons aside from basics obviously.
Is there any historical account of people fighting with two weapons, I know there is a reference in the Arthurian legends with Sir Balin, the Knight with Two Swords, but is there an actual European style like that?
Yes, it´s in 16th century treatises.
Would sword and a dagger be considered two weapons?
There are historic accounts of people fighting with a sock full of rocks. If you're asking if anyone's ever fought with two swords, yes they have. If you're asking if it was an actual "thing", not really. It was popular for a little bit, but mostly as a dick measuring thing, cause it's flashier and takes more skill to actually do properly. At least if we're talking about two swords. Having a sword and a parrying dagger was pretty popular.
Yes,there is in fact around genova I believe.
yiğit sivas Honestly that was a stupid comment on my part, I forgot about Italian dueling practice of using a rapier and parry dagger. Also, looking at buckler fighting, that's practically a weapon, brass knuckles with a plate basically.
I like how Skall doesn't care for katanas, but his weapon of choice appears to be a big German katana with a crossguard. =D
(Kriegsmesser)