Smyth Busters: AR-10 vs AR-308 - What's the Difference?
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- Опубликовано: 2 авг 2024
- Brownells Gun Techs Caleb and Steve are sharp as new thumb tacks and even more adept at bursting balloons of firearm misinformation. Today they tackle the notion that any AR-type rifle chambered in 7.62 NATO or .308 Winchester is an AR-10. Many people who think they own an "AR-10" actually have what's generically called an "AR-308". The AR-10® is a specific rifle made by the Armalite® company, which owns the AR-10® name as a registered trademark. So ONLY that Armalite rifle can be legitimately called an AR-10®. ("AR-15" is a non-trademarked, public domain designation for the smaller rifle usually chambered in 5.56 NATO or .223 Remington.) The big deal for an AR-308 owner is that AR-10® parts are NOT necessarily interchangeable with parts for the DPMS LR-308 or other AR-308 rifles. Significant differences include the upper receivers, barrel extensions, handguard mounts, bolt headspacing, gas tubes, and buffers. The fire control groups, dust covers, pistol grips, muzzle devices, and receiver extensions (buffer tubes) WILL interchange, as will the magazines (except for some very old AR-10s that used FN FAL mags). If you own an AR-10®, Armalite will be your main source for parts, though some aftermarket parts makers do offer AR-10® specific handguards and the like. One problem is that some makers of AR-308 components are careless and say their parts are for the "AR-10". Have you had compatibility problems with AR-10 vs AR-308 parts? Tell us about it in the comments!
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I didn’t know this.
Yeah, and if you look for an AR in 308, its almost always going to be called an AR-10. I mean looking at Gunbroker, its literally always going to be called an AR-10.
Honestly, I think Brownells is wrong here. If everyone is calling AR-308's AR-10's then we have the same thing happening as when people started calling generic AR platforms AR-15's. No, you almost certainly don't own an Armalite one, but functionally all of the parts labeled "AR-10" are going to be for what Brownells here is calling an AR-308.
In fact if you look on Brownells own site and search for AR-10 parts, you get essentially nothing but AR-308 parts. Credit to them, though: they're all labeled "AR 308" or "308 AR", and NOT AR-10, but they still match the AR-10 keyword.
I didn't know either. I blame the merchants if they continue to misinform their customers.
I didn’t no either, was thinking about building one sometime.
Good information if you were to build one you are better off getting all the parts from 1 company like Aero Precission that way all parts will match
Isn't an sr25 based off the ar10
The more you know...💫
wow! I'm a big time ar-15 guy,
I did not know there was a difference between the ar-10 and
the ar-308. thank you for the education.
Why do I get the feeling that Caleb is really into swing dancing at sock hops? Seriously though, this series is excellent. Great info!
😂😂😂👍 I had much the same reaction.
He straight up looks like he came of the set of a movie or show set in the 50s
Perfect voice for that era too, reminds me of Joseph mazello as Eugene sledge
Isn't everyone?
Monday Tuesday Happy Days. Thursday Friday Happy Days....These days are ours, oh happy days...
Because he looks like a 50’s square.😎
Even in the AR-308 ( I have always called it LR-308) there are some issues with compatibility. My suggestion has always been match up your receivers as one set, your barrel/bolt as another. You can kinda mix/match the rest. But say, aero M5 lower (LR-308 compatible) with a DPMS upper can get a little weird with overall fitment.
Ok. I didnt know most of this. I knew there where various 308 chambered ar's at to make sure what I got would fit. But dang. Now I know. Thank you.
I learned something new today. I had no idea that that AR-10 was so different that a AR-308. Thank you for the information.
I have a AR308 6.5 Creedmoor that I put together for this very reason. The AR308 pattern is more widely provided for in the aftermarket than the AR10 is which makes compatability issues less. Unless you just have to have the Armalite name on the receiver the AR10 isn't worth the hassle in my opinion.
"I don't fob! I'm a Dapper Dan man!"
@@Gwenhwyfar7 pride in vanity is to a fault. To each their own.
An AR308 in 6.5 Creedmoor is a terrible naming convention. ARSR makes somewhat more sense since it references the magazine size. Then what do I know. 😉
@@RARufus is DPMS pattern LFAR 6.5 Creedmoor more to your liking? In complete truth and transparency that really would be a more direct descriptive terminology.
6.5 is the way, for now and the future
Knew this while doing research to build my DPMS AR308 years back. There are manufacturers that like to list non compatible parts as AR10/308. My advice is to know what you are buying by reading the details and buy matching receivers. Great information and video as always Brownells.
Yup... I have an Eagle Arms AR-10B from years ago.. 2005 or so...uses the M1A/M14 modified mags. I wanted a 243 upper & could not find nothing, not in the B config. And if I did... it cost as much or more then the DPMS pattern complete rifle....
So when CDNN was clearing DPMS LR308 lowers, bought one to built a 243...& a 308 hbar...
I learned this the hard way when I built my PA10s years back. Still, good info to have out there. Good video guys. Thanks!
i spent alot of money on an armalite ar-10 20 round mag only to find out it will not fit in a dpms lr 308 or smith wesson m&p 10 / only seems to fit armalite mag well and nothing else
@@commiesnzombies finally, someone said LR 308, this ar 308 is just going to add to the confusion.
@@TurningGuns Yeah.. exactly. I've always known them both as AR10's-- with either the Armalite patter, or the LR 308 patter..."AR 308" just throws more mud in the muddy water. lol
@@TurningGuns So, the LR-308 and AR-308 are separate and different patterns? I'm just trying to make sure I'm getting this all right.
@@bobby1970 that's right.
At first I thought we were nitpicking but - this is important info...
I concede lol
I am currently building an AR308 and Very glad you put this video out. So far I have only the upper, lower and the internals. Thank You Both for the information!
Worth mentioning there are two different heights of AR 308 receivers. Before you look at rails its a good idea to check which you have.
@@blckandwhtknight I was surprised they didn’t mention that fact.
I used a Zev hand guard on my BA 308 build, and highly recommend it.
Research was helpful be when I assembledine.👍
@@usernamunavailiable They did..
Good advice for those of us with little to no hands on experience with the heavy caliber AR platforms.
I love these videos and bits of knowledge you all are providing. Thanks for making this stuff!
When I first started my Aero m5308 build I didnt know that lower parts kit from other manufacturers couldn't fit, even the buffer weights and springs weren't interchangeable. So if you buy Aero M5 308 and start to build it make sure all the parts come from Aero.
I kind of went this route just to make it as hassle-free as possible, but thanks for the heads up
What about Fire Control Groups? I would like to have something a bit nicer than a standard trigger if possible.
@@zroberts02 most likely you're going to have to stick with Aero precision. I tried lower parts kit from DPMS LR 308 did not fit. Contact Aero or contact the manufacturer of the product you're trying to use. That way you don't waist your time and money getting the wrong part.
@@zroberts02 Hi I have an all aero precision ar308 and have a LaRue trigger group in it and have had no problems whatsoever.
@@zroberts02 The triggers and pins, grips, forward assist and dust cover-- are the same.. I believe that even the charging handle are the same too........ The two main issues are the barrel/ bolt pair..and the receiver pairs being cut different.
Something everyone seems to gloss over regarding AR-10's is that they were purpose-built for 308. The massive bolt-carrier, the gigantic buffer tube, the direct impingement system; everything about it was designed to fight the problems regarding full auto 308 in a lightweight platform.
Let me elaborate.
The bolt carrier is unusually large compared to other options, and is pretty space inefficient; but for recoil control, the added weight helps a ton.
Same situation with the buffer tube; the FAL just used a smaller spring and a rod on a hinge, but the AR used a larger tube to hold a larger spring and a weight to further offset the recoil.
The direct impingement system is pretty important too, as it does two things: it improves accuracy due to barrel harmonics, and it prevents Joe Schmuckitelly from destroying the barrel and internals by creating an intentional failure point that completely disables the firearm and is super cheap to fix.
Meanwhile the FAL was built for 280British, an intermediate cartridge, and is thus a bitch to shoot.
And the G3 was part of a whole family of guns, one of which being the MP5 and the other being the G53, which was in 5.56. As a consequence, the G3 is also a bitch to shoot.
And the sad thing is that America doesn't use the AR10 for anything other than DMR roles, which isn't the role it's meant for; it's a battle rifle, and it out performs the M14 and SCAR by a longshot. Plus, it doesn't just cheat by being super heavy.
Thanks for the information about this topic I wish you had put this out 2yrs ago when I started to plan my build. When I started planning my build I noticed 4 different types of variations on this format. I recommend anyone building one to purchase the main parts from one manufacturer no matter what the cost. Keep up the good work.
I think an episode highlighting Caleb’s barber, hair stylist, coiffurist is past due
first time here and got the same feeling
I actually had no idea the AR-10 was an Armalite name. I also had no idea that AR-10 parts were not compatible with AR-308s. Great info!
I'm glad you guys made this.
Parts compatibility is the biggest reason I tracked down an older DPMS LR-308 instead of building my own from scratch.
KAC SR25, DiamondBack DB10, LMT LM8, and even M110 DMR sniper rifle that the military uses, also have the Armilite AR10 pattern.. and I'm sure there are a few others-- It's not just Armilite...... I'll probably never build an LR308, and just stick with the Armalite pattern-- all the best brands use their standard.
I put together my first AR 308 this last year. I found some really good articles about the differences between AR-10/LR-308 and Armalite and DPMS. Then I was lucky enough to find great deal on Aero M5 lower.
That’s VERY good information, thank you, and the differences at the component level obviously are very consequential.
I too did not know this was even a thing. I have never seen AR-308 advertised either. I have not yet modified my “AR308” (Diamondback) so I am glad you guys posted this before I wasted money I could have spent on precious metals - lead, copper, & brass.
Did you modify yet? Heard/read that if you have diamond back you have to stay with diamond upper and lower for example. Do you know if this is true ? I have Db15 556
This was illuminating to me. And yes, there is market confusion. Beginning of this year, I bought the Windham Weaponry R16SFST-308. So, technically, they are not calling it an A-10 but I have thought of it as such. Perhaps I should call it an LR 308. That being said, I was looking for an extra wide charging handle because with the scope on, the ocular is right over where the charging handle rests. Anyway, so looking for it, many sights list both because it is perhaps a part that works in both.
The rifle came with a telescoping stock on a carbine length tube. Before shooting it, I wanted to change the stock. I took off that carbine length tub, spring and buffer and put on a Luth-AR rifle stock kit for AR-10s. Then I put on a Magpul PRS Gen III precision rifle stock. This led to a comedy of errors you may enjoy. I did not check the weight of the rifle buffer in that kit. I accidentally overgassed myself.
When I went to shoot it, I was getting good performance out of one ammo (Federal) and the failure to extract leading to double feeds (Hornady.) Overgassing is when the amount of gas coming back is making the bolt carrier group move back and forth to fast. Fixed gas block and staked gas key, my one option that did work was to take apart the assorted buffers and swapping weight slugs, I have the rifle buffer weighing 6.1 ounces and that solved the problem, mostly.
Basically, in a rifle buffer, you need at least 5.3 ounces, sometimes more.
Glad to see this addressed. Built my first AR platform 308 around 18 years ago and went thru this all back then. What you don't mention is why there are different platforms vs the AR-15 platform. Simple, but understandable: there was no "mil-spec" developed for this platform, even tho the first AR (Armalite Rifle) was in 308 caliber. After the US adopted the 223 cartridge for their new rifle, the 308 platform languished. DPMS really pushed their own version in the 90's/early 2000's, and because of the proliferation of their version, it was adopted by parts manufacturers and eventually duplicated by other firearms manufacturers. Today there are a plethora of great companies making "DPMS Pattern" rifles, with some tweaking the design even further.
DPMS LR-308 came out in 2004. Eagle Arms re-branded as ArmaLite Inc. introduced the "AR-10" in 1996.
Stoner was working on prototype SR-25s in the late 1980s, introduced the production rifles with KAC in early 1990s, with ads for them showing up in gun rags in 1993.
Original ArmaLite rifles were prototyped from 1955-1959, licensed for production in the late 1950s to Dutch, who made rifles for Sudan and Portugal.
Thank you Caleb and Steve! I also thought they were the same thing. Good to know, because I am about to build myself an AR-308 (not an AR-10) and it helps to order the correct parts!!
I've known some of this in a general way, but it's good to hear the specifics. Guess I've had a fair amount of dumb luck in putting my AR-308s together...
I do appreciate that you have lessened my ignorance, This has also ran me down a rabbit whole which has taught me there a lot more differences about other 308/7.62 that I know nothing about.
Great video! I’ve always thought you guys deserve way more subscribers due to your production quality and especially your firearms knowledge! Thanks for the great content!
Brownell's is an awesome company for sure! A+
@@firstnamelastname6216 that too!
I bought a “carbine length” gas tube that was supposed to be compatible with the LR308 (not from midway or brownells) and I was having a whole bunch of issues with cycling, feeding, etc. it turns out the Fun fact is: AR10 gas tube length 12 inches, LR308 carbine length gas tube 11.75 inches. It’s the small things
One thing I thought you would’ve touched on is the difference in DPMS pattern receivers. Being there is DPMS high, and DPMS low.
That's a good point. If you are building an upper from scratch, you have to match the receiver (high/low) with your hand guard height. But most people just buy complete uppers and never even have to think about that.
We are doing that in a Quick Tip video.
They did...
I always learn a lot from you guys. Thanks for your videos. I enjoy them all!
Love this. For novice folks, it helps greatly. This is what happens when... something is not standard... but looks similar.
Never mind the differences between the AR10B vs AR10A...
Like so many others I had no idea that there was any difference. This is very good to know. Thank you fellas.
Great info as usual!
Thank you guys!
Did not know this! I've been blindly referring to my Savage MSR in 308 as an AR-10. Thank you for schooling me.
Interesting, never knew there was a difference. Great info guys👍
Not only a difference between those, but among the AR308 (DPMS pattern) receivers there is a difference in height which determines what rails are compatible.
I definitely learned some new stuff and will like to thank you’ll pls keep the info rolling in
Thanks for the information guys!!! Learned a lot about the AR-10 / AR-308.
From my understanding, DPMS (LR308) is more the standard/norm now where as the AR10 is slowly becoming a thing of the past.
DPMS no longer exists as a company and within the LR-308 line-up, they had 3 different receiver heights. That was before they introduced the GII small frame series, which shares no critical parts with LR-308 series.
There are a lot of companies using SR-25 compatible receivers, including LaRue, LMT, and ArmaLite.
After-market companies who make their own receiver sets went through major beta testing pains through customers, discovering that parts fit together just fine, but then damage the lowers under fire.
Carrier rails smash into the RET thread boss area because none of the parts were vetted with pyramid testing.
Never knew! Good info to have as I seek out parts…thanks Guys!
I remember reading about the PSA PA-10 using a mixed system like the upper is DPMS but the lower is Armalite except for the profile or maybe it was the other way around. I tried to build an Aero M5 LR-308 a few years ago but never finished, its still on my list of goals though :)
I just built a AR308, seeing this video I'm pleased the companies I ordered from were all labeled correctly.
Im really happy i came across this info. Still so much to learn.
I’ve learned the hard way too. Now I own both. Thanks again, Smyth busters
My AR-308 was listed as AR10 DPMS compatible but you had to read into the description, you had to be looking for those parts that would work together and finding company's that worked together. As much as I would love to build my 308 from scratch for a completed upper with BCG charging handle barrel and handguard from BCA at 309.00 shipped when I bought it was a heck of a deal so found a lower that would work and built it from there only thing I had to change was putting an adjustable gas block from the over gassing but getting
Thanks for this information, ran into this similar issue with an AR-15 build where I bought a proprietary upper/lower (non mil spec among other things) that I was unaware it was proprietary... needless to say I had issue with parts compatibility. I wish companies would put in big bold red warning labels that their platform works with in house parts or at least the measurements/spec of parts so if you buy aftermarket you can verify that they will fit. But it was a good live and learn experience as it was my first build... and thankfully I had a friend who could fix those issues.
Honestly didn't know this. Great info
Don't forget the bolt hold open part, the AR308 version is just a bit shorter and won't reliably hold open the AR10 upon expending the final round. Also, The AR10 requires a threaded pin to hold that part in the receiver, many AR308s use a standard roll pin in that location. Cheers!
I had to angle grind my catch so it would fit around the receiver to fully rise up and that was a quick easy fix. Only had to grind it one time vs typical gunsmithing where you have to go back and fourth 20 times to get it perfect
Thank you for the clarification, sirs
Good info guys. Always enjoy your lessons.
I knew they were different but I had no idea it was this much difference! Wow
This is good to know. I have a Windham AR308. I installed the Elfman drop in trigger that also fits the AR15. Works great. Mil Spec buffer tube.
Nice!
I'm glad you cleared this up for me
Like so many others, I was unaware of the differences, until now, thanks! One issue I see with one of the AR-308 types is that of the DPMS Recon G2/GII, that it also is not quite the same as the average AR-308 due to the various improvements DPMS made. Now that DPMS has gone "poof" from the market, I'm hoping that the successor organization will have replacement parts available at some point.
Though I’ve been shooting most of my life I’m relatively new to the AR platform. I would have fallen into this rabbit hole deeply. I had no idea. My rookie thought is to spec out what I want and order it complete. Thanks guys, great info.
Thanks for this informative video, quite timely for me.
Excellent information; thank you! Don't have either platform, but at least now I know the difference...
I built a DPMD platform AR-10 style in .243. My firing pin retainer some how was missing when I went to clean the rifle and spent hrs searching for one on line, and my wife came to my aid and found 2 @ J P rifle mfg.when local sporting goods nor Brownell and other on line stores had none. You are correct, my DPMSis not an AR.
I was not aware of this at all, thank you for the education.
Hmmm, who knew! I never changed my AR10T, so it never came up as an issue, but thanks for keeping me from future problems.
Good information. I have been thinking of building an AR10/AR 308 and I did not know they were different.
Good video to add to the saved list.
Just for future information.
I was not aware of these differences when i purchased my Armalite 7.62x51 AR10. Had I been an informed shopper, it would have made finding parts much easier! I still love my Armalite rifle & i would purchase again, just wish i did my research before spending the money. Now finding parts is difficult & theyre more expensive, because theyre not generic parts.
If you own an Armalite rifle, buy your parts directly from Armalite. You also need to be very aware of whether you are holding an AR10A or AR10B. Strangely enough, the ‘B’ is the older version and the ‘A’ is the newer itineration that takes polymer mags. Steel mags only in the ‘B’ version.
I did know this and I've successfully assembled two AR308 uppers for the lower that I machined back in the day. I did my research and never had to return a part because it was for the wrong version.
Great video!
I have an Armalite AR-10 purchased in 94 . Armalite at the time made mags from M-14 mags and modified them to comply with the AWB passed that year . They had a funky button you had to push in to load the 1st 2 rounds . Later Armalite changed that and made they're own proprietary mags and then changed again to be compatible with pmags (the latest change I believe) . I was able to change out the mag release and modify 30 round M-14 mags by using a dremel to cut a hole for the mag catch and put non tilt followers in . They fit tight and work well in my 1994 AR-10 . I paid $1100.00 for it back then .
I built an AR 308/DPMS pattern, and the learning curve of what fit and what didn't 5 years ago was a real eye opener. And I still didn't know till just now about the bolts and headspace issues.
I can definitely agree that there's confusion. Just looking at PSA's stuff (for entry level exploration) they have something that's a PA-10 and you see on the products page people asking what pattern this it is in all the time.
Once had a POF-308 lower and didn't know it was completely different than either the Armalite or the various other versions. Was quite surprised when the upper was completely different!
Yeah, most people I know call AR-308s AR-10s including me... I'm guilty of this as well. But, everyone I know who has a 308/762 has a AR-308 because that is the platform that is compatible with most of the market and aftermarket. I've built one and it turned out great. If you are doing it for the first time, I would probably suggest using a lower and upper from the same manufacturer. If you are doing an AR build for the very first time (any AR build) you probably want to get an assembled upper for sure. Putting together the lower is no biggie and tons of videos on it. Anyway, once you build an AR you will be hooked. It is a lot of fun.
This helps me immensely. Building my first from the ground up.
Very helpful video, thanks!
I learned something new. Thanks for the information, Brownells.
I bought a 308 bcg from you and on your email list for an aero upper and lower. I knew armalite was different but didn't know specifics. Good to know.
Great info!
Thank you for the information.
Less than a minute in and I learned something. No, I'm not ignorant on firearms. I've only been a firearm owner for 9 years, and an AR owner for 5, so I'm always learning about firearm related stuff. With that said, this is the shit most new gun owners are afraid to ask because the firearm community is its own worst enemy when it comes to criticism. Anyway, thanks for the info and I hope haters keep moving along.
That's the problem, the AR-10 was never standardized like the AR-15 was, that was only on Colt, they're thinking was allow other companies figure out the standards for it. 50 years later and it's still an issue.
I learn so much from these videos!
I always build DPMS/SR25 spec for all parts EXCEPT the buffer assembly. I use Armalite spec with that to have more flexibility with carbine weights.
Thank you putting this video out , i have met big gun guys who didnt know how to dicern one lower or upper from the other. This so called AR10 marketing does confuse the buyer. Thanks
Thanks for the information.
Always great information from Brownells. I like the way it's explained also. Some will tell you this information almost as an insult. As if, you should know everything little thing about the rifle before you purchased it. I believe the only question I asked the dealer was can I shoot both 7.62x51 and .308 ammo. Thank you Brownells.
YES went down that rabbit hole!! Buy a matching set upper and lower receiver that will fix a lot of problems. Also barrel and bolt carrier group from same manufacturer.
The AR10 was never a military standard so there was no standardization of platform like the AR15. Also Armalite never sold off the rights to the platform like they did with the 15. Best bet if building an AR308 is to build to DPMS pattern and the best option out there without spending a ton of money is the Aero M5 set up
The wide variance in AR308 is super annoying. Every time you ask a company "does it fit on mine" you just get shrugs. I don't want to buy a $100 part on the off chance it might fit
I have an old Noveske N6 which is on the Armalite pattern. Getting spare parts and magazines has been a nightmare. It is now just a safe queen
I knew building a 10 isn’t as simple and straightforward as a 15 but didn’t know the reason. I knew enough that parts interchangeability was an issue but never the reason why. Thank guys, I’m positive you just saved me some headaches👍🏻
Good to know, heard many parts are not interchangeable. Been planning to build .308 the last year, but this was the main deterent besides price/availibility in same period. Chief issue then is many manufacturers are proprietary components/non-interchange. Thats precise reason why I went with Ar15 platform for present.
Always learning. 👍
Wow,,, I was unaware of that.
I had considered getting into .308 in the past but GREAT information to have in your back pocket.
👍🇺🇸👍🇺🇸
My AR308 from Aero Precision is badass. Best rifle I've ever owned and I've always wanted a AR308 since I was a kid. Living the dream
AR-6.5 Creedmoor? Thank you for another excellent video!
Several years ago I got an ar10 lower from a friend. Thinking ar15 where everything is mil-spec, I ended up with a dpms upper to assemble my gun. I ended up with a very nice rifle in the end, but machining the lower to fit the upper was WAY more work than I want to do again! My advice is to research carefully when buying parts to ensure compatibility!😃
Very nice point thats totally new info for me
Big props for being willing to say "Have an Ar-10? Call Armalite." A big part of customer service is admitting when you cant help and pointing to someone who can. Too many people are scared to do this these days.
Important to note that the buffer tubes DO NOT interchange. The AR 10 carbine extension is longer. Mixing those will can cause major problems. Worst case would be an Armalite extension on a AR308 buffer. Your bolt carriers going to get lodged in the tube the first time you fire it. Putting a Armalite buffer in short extension would be pretty obvious, as the bolt won't even travel to cycle a round, though it would be safe.
The rifle receiver extensions interchange but the carbines are indeed different.