I really appreciate these videos. It helps me understand the voodoo going on inside my pump. My pump was causing running problems and finally stopped drawing fuel. After watching your videos, I realize my pump probably is beyond any reseal repair. I have metal glitter-like flakes coming out of my fuel return. Once I get a good pump, I will take mine apart to see what actually failed. I realize that I probably have metal flakes in my lines and injectors too. Thanks again for all the detailed info, it helps out a bunch.
I have been searching and searching to find just this, like the way you take the time to explain without too much (anorakism) thank you, you have definately given me the knowledge to strip my leaking pump. Great post.
I just watched all of this series, this is great information, and structured in a way that I personally am able to understand the material. I am in the process of remedying a “hunting” or surfing idle issue on my first gen, and am looking to my VE pump next to determine if it is the cause of the problem. Your video series was the most comprehensive information out there. I wish you had more videos about your 5.9 with the same methodical explanations!
Hey Andrew, couple of questions. 1) Is it a slow hunting, like a couple of seconds between RPM swings? 2) Has the governor spring been swapped out to raise the rev limit? 3) With the truck hunting at idle, can you visibly see any of the throttle mechanisms moving? If not, then it's probably an internal spring issue. Here's a high level diagram of the pump www.4btswaps.com/attachments/idle-jpg.11626/ The spring at the very top left of that diagram which is not labeled, is the Governer spring which is used to increase the rev-limit of the pump. You can pick up a 3200rpm spring for about $25, which is pretty safe on stock valve springs. I would suspect that, or the idle spring shown in the diagram. Both of those are only accessible by pulling off the pump-top. Pulling off the pump top isn't particularly hard, just make sure it's very clean so no dirt falls in. There's only one spring connection between the pump-top and the pump body, so nothing will explode out or dis-lodge if you pull it off.
Brady Mashak, thanks for the reply! I was not expecting you to ever get back to me ha. 1) I would agree there are 1-3 seconds between the “peaks” of the surging. 2) I honestly don’t know, I’m at least the 3rd owner. I do know the fuel pin has been rotated, and that the pump has been “rebuilt” per the previous owner. 2b) How does one tell what the rev limit is? I came across someone online saying they put their truck in neutral and floored the fuel pedal to find their max. I wasn’t sure this was a good idea, but I tried and let off the pedal when my aftermarket tach crept past 3000rpm. 3) I do not see any throttle mechanisms actively moving when it is surging/hunting. It does happen very reliably +/- around 850-950 RPM however. I backed the idle screw out to a ~650-700rpm idle (I have to give it a little fuel or it will stall on startup if it’s cold), and that seems to solve the low end hunting. But if I’m coasting along in first gear (auto trans) it will surge/hunt until I apply firm brakes and the idle drops back down to below 800. Are you suggesting a new gov spring to be a worthy candidate to solve the problem? I don’t know much about the gov springs, and how they could potentially wear out or get old. Thank you so much in advance for any reply, as well as for your information thus far!
@@sklereth The original Rev limiter of these trucks was 2700-2900rpm, so it's probably got an aftermarket Governor spring, which might just be poor quality (they don't really wear out), or they forgot to install the "idle spring" when they rebuilt it. I put a cheap 3200rpm governer spring in my truck and never had idle issues though, so expensive isn't necessarily better. ruclips.net/video/agQXmV90G6Y/видео.html This video shows how to swap the governor spring, and at 3:24 you can see him actually tugging on that small and soft idler spring. The "idler spring" is called out on the diagram from that previous link I commented. Its a really small compression-type spring, and it just keeps some constant tension on that throttle arm that pivots inside the pump. Also, It's pretty safe to neutral-rev the truck like that up to about 3500rpm with the stock valve springs, so you're plenty safe with you're truck only going up to ~3000. I recently put some stiffer valve springs in my truck and run a 4000rpm rev limit and haven't had issues. For your peace of mind: typically if you have a bad/plugged injector or damaged pump, it will just sound like an uneven idle and it won't cause surging. So I don't think you need to worry about that at least. I've heard people say a hunting idle can "sound like an aggressive cam!" but with a turbo diesel, an aggressive cam should not create a lopey idle unless they got a custom made a stupid cam profile. So it's not like they just put a cam in your truck and that's the cause.
Aha! So much information... I only wish I had found those links a month ago. That dieselram.com post describes: “When idle speed begins to drop, the centrifugal governor weights and the governor sleeve retract; the idle spring then pushes the metering sleeve to the right, increasing the amount of fuel to correct the idle speed.” Sounds exactly like what is going on in my case. I will tear into my pump later this next week (if I don’t have time tomorrow!) and see if there’s anything obviously wrong. Perhaps replacing the idler spring is worth considering while I’m in there. Now to figure out where to get one, if that is what the problem is... I read about half that document about the inner workings of the injection pump. I’ll finish it tomorrow and get back to you more questions. One that comes to mind now is: does holding wide open throttle in neutral and waiting until your RPM’s level out truly represent the gov spring capabilities? I guess I’m just not sure how to accurately check what RPM gov spring I’ve got in there, assuming there are no identifying markings on the physical spring. I do know the KDP hasn’t been addressed, and it does appear nobody has ever removed the timing cover, so I don’t imagine a cam replacement has occurred. Oh, and one more bit of info. The truck does haze blue/white at idle. Without a significant decrease when warm. Not sure if this is relevant information, but I figure the fuel system is all connected... Again, I appreciate the assistance, and I will comment again with more info as soon as I have some! Any further ideas from your end are very appreciated! Edit: one more thing I remembered. Before and after my current idle screw adjustments, I *can* get it to smooth out the hunting issue if I ease real gently off the throttle. If I abruptly take my foot off the fuel pedal it surges much more roughly.
Hi, can we buy a replacement plunger? First time witnessing in opening a fuel pump head. Also, is it normal for the plunger to have scratches or scarring? Can it still be used or at least function according to its purpose? Thanks!
Hello ...i have tdi42 installing into 1998 UD 1400 6cylinder diesel and it has been sitting for 2years i did start it every week but last week i start it and its start shaking and smoking white diesel smoke and no return coming on no power what do you think please?
Brady, why did the camplate go bad? I 'm asking because i have an engine that shakes at idle and vibrates at most of the revrange. Injectors are overhauled and compression i within 2bar difference. Id like to know what you think. Thanks
It's really hard to say for sure what caused my pump to fail. But I'm fairly confident the root cause was my failing lift pump. If the fuel pump isn't full to the top with fuel, then the entire cam plate is not lubricated and cooled properly. And worst case scenario it could actually pull some air into the pumping piston at what ag high rpm and load, the pump side of the cam rollers could lift off the cam plate (like valve hang, if the return spring is aged and theres no fuel pressure pushing it back) and then the rollers could slam back down onto the cam plate and fracture it. If your truck is idling rough, it's either compression, injectors, or the pump/fuel system. But before assuming it's the whole high pressure pump thats bad, I'd check and make sure that your lift pump is flowing fuel. Otherwise these VE pumps hate it when they have to suck fuel all the way from the tank with a shot lift pump, but they will do it and they will idle like crap at a lower than normal rpm in my experience.
@@bradymashak231 thanks for answering, i dont have a lift pump.. never had for 10 years now.. maybe thats the problem because i have good compression and good injectors
understanding how something works is the only way to know how to make mods that will provide improvements. great job on figuring it out. here is a link you might be interested in. its a tutorial that was made when the pre turbo bosch ve pump came about ruclips.net/video/SqBlqdeP3uE/видео.html
I really appreciate these videos. It helps me understand the voodoo going on inside my pump.
My pump was causing running problems and finally stopped drawing fuel.
After watching your videos, I realize my pump probably is beyond any reseal repair. I have metal glitter-like flakes coming out of my fuel return.
Once I get a good pump, I will take mine apart to see what actually failed.
I realize that I probably have metal flakes in my lines and injectors too.
Thanks again for all the detailed info, it helps out a bunch.
Brady you are the men for making these videos. Absolute treasure of RUclips.
I have been searching and searching to find just this, like the way you take the time to explain without too much (anorakism) thank you, you have definately given me the knowledge to strip my leaking pump. Great post.
I just watched all of this series, this is great information, and structured in a way that I personally am able to understand the material.
I am in the process of remedying a “hunting” or surfing idle issue on my first gen, and am looking to my VE pump next to determine if it is the cause of the problem. Your video series was the most comprehensive information out there. I wish you had more videos about your 5.9 with the same methodical explanations!
Hey Andrew, couple of questions.
1) Is it a slow hunting, like a couple of seconds between RPM swings?
2) Has the governor spring been swapped out to raise the rev limit?
3) With the truck hunting at idle, can you visibly see any of the throttle mechanisms moving? If not, then it's probably an internal spring issue.
Here's a high level diagram of the pump www.4btswaps.com/attachments/idle-jpg.11626/
The spring at the very top left of that diagram which is not labeled, is the Governer spring which is used to increase the rev-limit of the pump. You can pick up a 3200rpm spring for about $25, which is pretty safe on stock valve springs. I would suspect that, or the idle spring shown in the diagram. Both of those are only accessible by pulling off the pump-top. Pulling off the pump top isn't particularly hard, just make sure it's very clean so no dirt falls in. There's only one spring connection between the pump-top and the pump body, so nothing will explode out or dis-lodge if you pull it off.
Brady Mashak, thanks for the reply! I was not expecting you to ever get back to me ha.
1) I would agree there are 1-3 seconds between the “peaks” of the surging.
2) I honestly don’t know, I’m at least the 3rd owner. I do know the fuel pin has been rotated, and that the pump has been “rebuilt” per the previous owner.
2b) How does one tell what the rev limit is? I came across someone online saying they put their truck in neutral and floored the fuel pedal to find their max. I wasn’t sure this was a good idea, but I tried and let off the pedal when my aftermarket tach crept past 3000rpm.
3) I do not see any throttle mechanisms actively moving when it is surging/hunting.
It does happen very reliably +/- around 850-950 RPM however. I backed the idle screw out to a ~650-700rpm idle (I have to give it a little fuel or it will stall on startup if it’s cold), and that seems to solve the low end hunting. But if I’m coasting along in first gear (auto trans) it will surge/hunt until I apply firm brakes and the idle drops back down to below 800.
Are you suggesting a new gov spring to be a worthy candidate to solve the problem? I don’t know much about the gov springs, and how they could potentially wear out or get old.
Thank you so much in advance for any reply, as well as for your information thus far!
@@sklereth
The original Rev limiter of these trucks was 2700-2900rpm, so it's probably got an aftermarket Governor spring, which might just be poor quality (they don't really wear out), or they forgot to install the "idle spring" when they rebuilt it. I put a cheap 3200rpm governer spring in my truck and never had idle issues though, so expensive isn't necessarily better.
ruclips.net/video/agQXmV90G6Y/видео.html
This video shows how to swap the governor spring, and at 3:24 you can see him actually tugging on that small and soft idler spring. The "idler spring" is called out on the diagram from that previous link I commented. Its a really small compression-type spring, and it just keeps some constant tension on that throttle arm that pivots inside the pump.
Also, It's pretty safe to neutral-rev the truck like that up to about 3500rpm with the stock valve springs, so you're plenty safe with you're truck only going up to ~3000. I recently put some stiffer valve springs in my truck and run a 4000rpm rev limit and haven't had issues.
For your peace of mind: typically if you have a bad/plugged injector or damaged pump, it will just sound like an uneven idle and it won't cause surging. So I don't think you need to worry about that at least.
I've heard people say a hunting idle can "sound like an aggressive cam!" but with a turbo diesel, an aggressive cam should not create a lopey idle unless they got a custom made a stupid cam profile. So it's not like they just put a cam in your truck and that's the cause.
Here's a link to one of the least confusing documents on this pump:
www.dieselram.com/showthread.php?t=197873
It explains the idler spring a bit.
Aha! So much information... I only wish I had found those links a month ago.
That dieselram.com post describes: “When idle speed begins to drop, the centrifugal governor weights and the governor sleeve retract; the idle spring then pushes the metering sleeve to the right, increasing the amount of fuel to correct the idle speed.” Sounds exactly like what is going on in my case. I will tear into my pump later this next week (if I don’t have time tomorrow!) and see if there’s anything obviously wrong. Perhaps replacing the idler spring is worth considering while I’m in there. Now to figure out where to get one, if that is what the problem is...
I read about half that document about the inner workings of the injection pump. I’ll finish it tomorrow and get back to you more questions.
One that comes to mind now is: does holding wide open throttle in neutral and waiting until your RPM’s level out truly represent the gov spring capabilities? I guess I’m just not sure how to accurately check what RPM gov spring I’ve got in there, assuming there are no identifying markings on the physical spring.
I do know the KDP hasn’t been addressed, and it does appear nobody has ever removed the timing cover, so I don’t imagine a cam replacement has occurred.
Oh, and one more bit of info. The truck does haze blue/white at idle. Without a significant decrease when warm. Not sure if this is relevant information, but I figure the fuel system is all connected...
Again, I appreciate the assistance, and I will comment again with more info as soon as I have some! Any further ideas from your end are very appreciated!
Edit: one more thing I remembered. Before and after my current idle screw adjustments, I *can* get it to smooth out the hunting issue if I ease real gently off the throttle. If I abruptly take my foot off the fuel pedal it surges much more roughly.
Hi, can we buy a replacement plunger? First time witnessing in opening a fuel pump head. Also, is it normal for the plunger to have scratches or scarring? Can it still be used or at least function according to its purpose? Thanks!
Hello ...i have tdi42 installing into 1998 UD 1400 6cylinder diesel and it has been sitting for 2years i did start it every week but last week i start it and its start shaking and smoking white diesel smoke and no return coming on no power what do you think please?
Brady, why did the camplate go bad? I 'm asking because i have an engine that shakes at idle and vibrates at most of the revrange. Injectors are overhauled and compression i within 2bar difference. Id like to know what you think. Thanks
It's really hard to say for sure what caused my pump to fail. But I'm fairly confident the root cause was my failing lift pump.
If the fuel pump isn't full to the top with fuel, then the entire cam plate is not lubricated and cooled properly. And worst case scenario it could actually pull some air into the pumping piston at what ag high rpm and load, the pump side of the cam rollers could lift off the cam plate (like valve hang, if the return spring is aged and theres no fuel pressure pushing it back) and then the rollers could slam back down onto the cam plate and fracture it.
If your truck is idling rough, it's either compression, injectors, or the pump/fuel system. But before assuming it's the whole high pressure pump thats bad, I'd check and make sure that your lift pump is flowing fuel. Otherwise these VE pumps hate it when they have to suck fuel all the way from the tank with a shot lift pump, but they will do it and they will idle like crap at a lower than normal rpm in my experience.
@@bradymashak231 thanks for answering, i dont have a lift pump.. never had for 10 years now.. maybe thats the problem because i have good compression and good injectors
understanding how something works is the only way to know how to make mods that will provide improvements. great job on figuring it out. here is a link you might be interested in. its a tutorial that was made when the pre turbo bosch ve pump came about ruclips.net/video/SqBlqdeP3uE/видео.html