DAW - Apple M3 - Not So Fast
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
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Hey Barry. Thanks for the vid. I appreciate your stuff. As others have pointed out, you got it backwards. It is the EFFICIENCY cores that most DAWS do not use. Most only use the PERFORMANCE cores, including my favourite, Studio One. So the take-away from James Zhan's video that you reference is that in purchasing a new Apple Silicon Mac, one should consider the number of each core type and how much money can be spent.
I have an M1 Max laptop with 64 GB RAM, 8 performance cores and 2 efficiency cores. It is working well for everything music-wise I do, and I don't expect to need to upgrade for the next 3 to 5 years. However, if someone is new to Apple Silicon and wants to get the best performance in a DAW, the M3 Max can have up to 12 performance cores (with 4 efficiency cores), with a single core performance somewhere around 25 or 30% higher than M1 Max, and an upper RAM limit of 128 GB (vs. 64 GB for M1 Max). Of course, the M3 Ultra (when it comes) would be even better. Expensive, of course!
So the best option for you may be an M1 Max. The tricky bit is figuring out what you expect to need over the next few years, with the minimum cost. If you expect you may work with many instances of massive sample libraries, then RAM should be the priority. If you plan to work more with CPU intensive synthesizer or effects plugins, then you might want to prioritize performance.
For me, the most important factor is latency reduction. When I record my voice or play keyboard over other tracks I want to reduce the buffer size enough that I don't hear a delay or echo. But lower buffer size means more CPU load for all tracks. If the CPU can't keep up, then you get pops and clicks (which I used to get all the time on my PC, which is one reason I upgraded to Apple Silicon). There are various ways to reduce CPU load, such as reducing polyphony, freezing tracks, and disabling plugins (some DAWs have automatic features), but one easier mitigation is to get the fastest CPU you can afford. With my M1 Max, the only times I've heard pops and clicks is when my buffer sample size was 64 and I was playing multiple notes live on a complex virtual instrument (Native Instruments Arkhis, for example) with the sustain pedal down.
But in any case, I am grateful for Mr. Zhan's video, and for yours, Barry. When it does come time for me to upgrade, I will consider buying a previous year's model.
Again, thanks. Peter.
Reaper is the GOAT.
That guy's video helped me choose a M2 macbook air instead of M3. It works great for me on Ableton and Logic
For my understanding, Pro Tools 2024.3 took care of that and today it also utilizes all the cores in your apple silicon
Yep. All 10 cores of my M1Pro MBP are showing up in PT 2024.3
But have they lessened their corporate greed tho?
Does that include the M3?
@@christopherjbutleryes
Reaper is seriously impressive. They were one of the first DAWs, if not first to support apple silicon. There are only 2 developers working on Reaper and I remember from an interview, one of the main dev/creator of Reaper Justin was talking about how there were no official documentation from apple about utilizing all of the performance and efficiency cores properly of the different apple silicon's at that time(that was over 2 years ago), so IG he really figured it out all by himself or there might be documentations now because Reaper has been running and fully utilizing apple chips from the beginning. It's absolutely crazy Reaper is developed by like 2 people yet it's beating every DAW in performance and efficiency and even beating apple software on apple hardware. Remarkable. Such a great piece of software with no DRM and extremely lightweight and efficient code.
in B4 the cries of "Its not fair to compare against REAPER!"
Reaper is for the people.
Yes sir. And it is my DAW of choice.
Is there a huge learning curve to get up and running with it?
@@onethousandtwonortheast8848 Only if you are coming from a different DAW
The m1 MacBook Pro was the best computer apple made for DAW.
M1 Air
great Video.... PC User here! and i always know each and every core/thread distribution since many many years when i use Cubase.
Its a desktop utility for CPU/Threads+ RAM a GPU Perromance and i also can see how many processes run (in the background). My processes are abt 70 in WIN 10 when starting Cubase. DPC Latency is is max abt 100usec. (use DPC Latency Mon by Resplendence).
ALL MUSIC MACHINE WINdows i use are stripped to their bare functions ( no MS Bloat, AV and other BS like W LAN or Bluetooth).
Saw that video, he does some great content, it basically informed my purchase of a M1 Studio, they were going cheap, 25% off, thought it was a good buy for what I wanted it for.
The latest pro tools update now makes use of the efficiency cores. It would be great to see an updated comparison to see how much it improves things.
oh yea damn but do all pluging work with it
only took them over 2 years
@@rano12321 had a few problems no big deal lost a few wav on way to update nasty mf 🪚wav
My brother is a producer in LA and relies on his laptop for work daily. He bought a brand new M3 Macbook Pro with 24GB of ram and couldnt even run older Logic sessions. It was completely useless for him. He spent 6 hours on the phone with Apple support over 2 days only to find out what Barry talks about here. He returned it and ordered a refurbed M2 machine. It is absolutely ridiculous and unacceptable that Apple's own DAW cant fully utilize it's FUCKING HARDWARE. I swear Apple makes me wanna fkn scream sometimes......
M1 was $5000. Can not run my MPC DAW. How ever runs everything else. Purchased a trash can Mac Pro. 12 years old and it runs amazing for me. lol.
Crazy. How disappointing
ummm bleeding edge technology has been like this forever. tell him to switch to the peoples daw and the peoples audio interface if reliability is a problem.
Apple is laughing, the PRO moniker is not calling the user a Professional, but calling Them a Prostitute . Apple big pimping into the Trillion$
peoples DAW????@@robflores5172
Berry thank you for this video,been waiting on more audio production creators like yourself to cover this topic and bring awareness into this matter
I'm still using M1 but I have been considering upgrading. I use Logic and given this I am in no rush to get M3. When Apple update Logic to use all the cores in M3 I might consider it again. I have only maxed out the M1 couple of times so there is no hurry. Interesting that Reaper and Cubase are ahead of everybody else when it comes to this
Playback with lot of virtual instrument tracks and 3rd party plugins. I also had other apps running in the background. It seems that was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back, when I quit Logic, quit all the other apps and restarted Logic it played fine.
This is currently a non-issue. Apple released an update that addressed this not long after this video was posted. The efficiency cores are available to Logic. Although, I’m not entirely sure that the efficiency cores are really suited for realtime audio, so this non-issue was probably a non-issue to begin with. The efficiency cores are generally used by the OS and for processes that don’t require a lot horsepower, freeing the performance cores to do the heavy lifting.
Reaper's efficiency is astonishing!! I started using Acustica Audio plugins which are the MOST cpu intensive plugins I've ever seen. But they sound so good. I was using ProTools and Cubase to mix and the Performance meter fluctuates from 70 - 80% following my usual process.
Using Reaper, I can't even get it to 50%. No exageration. I've totally switched to Reaper for mixing. My CPU thanks me everytime I launch it.
I still use the trashcan Mac Pro with Digital Performer and have never had an issue, even using virtual instruments. I too use a Mac until it shows its age with the software that I am using. I really don’t chase what’s new all the time…I tend to focus more on making music instead.
James video is what convinced me to hold off buying any new computer for now. I was ready to buy a maxed out M3, but seeing how most of the DAWs don't utilize everything yet sealed it for me. I use LUNA (which wasn't represented) so I'm going to wait until I know what computer will work best with that.
Great share because naturally, I would have thought that the M3 would be the ideal CPU to have if I was in the Apple world.
There is more to it that has been discovered others since they have discovered the is the speed of the Efficiency cores they are slower. Well in a DAW timing is everything so using only Performance cores keeps everything running at same speed. So bottom line with choosing M1, M2, M3, plain, Pro, or Max check the number of Performance core on the one you buy. The M2 and M3 models mainly increased GPU cores. The M3 Pro is really odd in it reduced the memory bandwidth compared to all the others. So there is a lot to investigate before buying. The M1 Max has 10 Performance cores and I purchased a used MBP M1 Max at a nice price and very happy.
I still use my MP 5,1 128gb ram dual 5690 12core running Monterey. I'm on Cubase Pro 12 with no issues. 24 analog inputs via aggregated audio interfaces/adat etc.
I have absolutely ZERO ISSUES !!!
As long as I am still able to record live bands with no hiccups I'm good. I don't believe in chasing technology (you'll never win). I have to focus moreso on recording/mixing mastering & occasionally some Video Graphics stuff using Adobe After Effects etc.
_____
I do have 2 other PCs. But im usually on my older Mac Pro.
Hey Barry - I'm glad you did this video. I'm going to be in the Market for a new Mac Studio very soon and have also been looking at the M3 (particularly the M3 Max). I saw the video you're speaking of in your video as well. Afterwards I took a look inside Logic on my machine (M1 Max Mac Studio) and Logic IS using the Efficiency cores as welll as the Performance cores and has done so as long as I've been running this machine (June of 2022). It spikes the Efficiency cores up high whereas the Performance cores are more evenly distributed (with the exception of that last core, which always seems to spike up high, especially when running Virtual Instruments). Anyhow, that's just my little observation.
Again, I'm glad you made this Video Barry - as our computers are super important to the work we do, it's good to cover those as well.
I watched James’ video soon after it was released, and it was an eye opener! I was using the Mac Pro trash can with spinner hard drives at the time. Using virtual instruments with Pro Tools HDX was becoming difficult and cumbersome. I now have the Mac Studio M2 Max with 64GB of RAM with a couple external SSD’s, and the latest Pro Tools is working great! At some point with technology if you want to evolve with features and performance, you have to bite the bullet and upgrade. This is my 3rd Mac for studio use since 2010, and I can only hope that this M2 Max will be good for at least another 5-10 years. I think 10 years would be expecting too much though.
So I saw that video and shouted in the DUC forums and typically they all lost their shit.
I bought an M2 pro MacBook new in the end of line sales this year. I still think it’s the best new machine in the MacBook range you can get. It’s a joke that AVID suggests you cannot use efficiency cores for reliability reasons, yet Cubase and reaper manage it. I’ll be honest I got better performance from Intel (not better efficiency though). I think certain aspects of the Apple silicon chips was so wrong until these other developers fix it.
Cubase is The Best Love It
At what, there tools nothing more, when people hear your music they don't say 'I wonder what DAW that was made in' !
The aim should be to get away from this DAW obsessed culture and into one where your music is the focus. Carpenters don't brag about there hammers and chisels.
I found it very ironic that apple's own LOGIC cannot use high-efficiency cores, but CUBASE can.
nah. the 2 devs of reaper was able to beat 100s dev cubase with performance
@@jasoncruizerThese kids today needing 200 tracks to make songs reminds of an axiom; engineers can do with one dollar what someone else needs 3.
All the hits created by arrangers like Arif Mardin, who understood the “nuts and bolts” of how instruments work together, made songs that will remain evergreen.
Hi Barry, love your channel but I think your thumbnail is misleading. While it is true that the M3 Pro with 5 P- and 6 E-Cores is not very well suited for many DAWs, the M3 Max on your thumbnail comes with 10 P- and 4 E-Cores which makes it a lot stronger than the M1 Max or M2 Max, let alone the Pros, for Logic etc.
Regarding the utilization, I can confirm James‘ findings on an M1 and an M2 Pro in test projejcts.
However, I find the E-Cores to be pretty busy in heavy real-life projects. Not sure sure what is due to, I suspect routing but definately worth a look.
Best response yet! ❤️ That's why I bought the M3 Max... Of all Apple silicon that is the most powerful to date of the MacBooks
My m3 max and reaper have a loving relationship 😅❤
I've come to really enjoy and respect your content. I enjoy the discussions you have and the questions you pose. What I love the most is you don't act like a typical influencer. Like I feel like you're really just here to have a parasocial conversation.
Thank you!
You might want to correct what you say in the video, you keep saying that most of the DAW’s only use the EFFICIENCY cores where they actually use the PERFORMANCE cores … sort of an important thing to get right!
And I know that AVID took note of that original video and have worked hard to correct its ability to use all cores … hence recent updates.
I know, I’m stupid sometime🤦♂️
I recently got a 14” MBP M3 Pro, 18gb ram, I just tried 80 tracks in Ableton 12 using Arturia ARP 2600, Eventide Blackhole, SSL native channel strip, SSL native bus comp, Ableton comp & Ableton 8 band eq, cpu use is at 51%, it is only using the 4 performance cores and 2 of the efficiency cores lightly, it’s not ideal, but 80 tracks is a bonkers amount, I very rarely go over 40 tracks and even then they are not all playing at the same time, the MBP is plenty good enough for me personally, but it would be nice if software developers would play catch up.
I just recently bought a new iMac and watched the video beforehand, along with several others. While I have been using Reaper as of lately, I really wanted to return to Logic Pro. However, with the recent update, Logic needs 2019 or newer hardware. In the end, what informed my decision the most was also the need to edit video and livestream. It was a choice between a refurbished iMac Pro for nearly half the price, and what I ultimately ended up purchasing.
I needed something right away, and with switching back from PC, I also need it to last. Since getting the iMac, there has been an update that some plug-in companies are catching up to, so I haven't updated, as of yet. Ironically enough, I currently have more than 200 tracks open in Logic Pro, so it works just fine. I am also curious about Luna, so I am going to try it out, soon. Other than working on this sample pack, I haven't really done a stress test, but it is miles better than Microsoft, and blows my old Intel iMac out the water.
If there are any real issues, I will likely do content on it, but so far... it has been solid.
Do the DAW’s that use P & E cores do so intelligently? I know for a while Cubase wasn’t differentiating between them.
Hopefully Apple will fix this with a future update.
I use a lot of crazy intense plugins on my mixbus and also mix into my master bus. Even though I use Reaper, my poor laptop cannot keep up. I'm basically waiting for an M4 (or possibly M5) Max to come out. The M3 is over 3x more powerful than my current laptop, but my laptop struggles to run most of my current sessions, so ideally, I wouldn't upgrade until I KNOW I can get an Apple CPU that is 4x as powerful as my i7 7700HQ. Single core stats are what matter if you're mixing into mastering chains with demanding plugins (IK Tapes, Tone Projects tools, DMG Equilibrium, etc etc). CPU Cinebench benchmarks for an i7 7700HQ are ~44 (single core) and 174 (multicore), so I'd need something with a single core benchmark of around 165-180 for me to really consider it.
Great point that the software has to be written to take advantage of the new hardware features that a newer platform provides.
Reaper is not free/open source. The license is $60 (home)/$225 (commercial) and it is good for 2 major versions.
I use a Ryzen 5700G 8 core Windows machine and have no problem with core utilization.
The issue is with efficiency cores on Mac/PC platforms and how they are allocated.
I never said it was free, but I’m pretty sure as far as coding. It’s open source. I could be wrong.
@@BarryJohns No, it is not open source, either. The coding is done by the team that created WinAmp (NullSoft). There are other devs that create additional resources for it (like SWS and ReaPack) and skins. A lot of people think it is free because they don't use copy protection and it has an unlimited time demo with nag screens.
@@BarryJohns It's not open source. But it's kinda free!!
@@BarryJohnsReaper itself is not open source however those two developers manage to have a stable daw that will run ON an open source OPERATING SYSTEM. Reaperruns on Mac, Windows, and even freaking Linux. 😀
My Base model MACBOOK PRO M3 8g and it kicks ass running g mad sessions with over 50 tracks full plug ins
Thanks Barry for sharing. I watched the video you referenced and he certainly has a compelling point with the results he was able to get. From a developer standpoint though, I'm wondering what they have to go through to code their DAW to become more efficient. Apple certainly hasn't made this very easy since they do a major MacOS version every year and keep pushing out new CPUs quicker than developers can keep up. We can only hope that there will be some leveling off of chasing the latest and greatest. I'm just hoping the OS craziness doesn't go to crazy with features that we really don't want or need to where the OS boggs down with useless enhancements. I too want my Mac Studio to last as long as possible without getting eaten up by engineered obsolescence!!! Thanks for sharing!!!! I really appreciate your channel!!!
Reaper rules!
yes
Reaper isn't open source - just cheaper, lighter and better developped.
So glad i found this video, great info
8 to 10 years before you upgrade? woooo daddy that's a whole life time Daddy. for we youngies we install anything in our system trying to find that new thing so we broke system really fast .lol But thanks for this videos anyways, love it. I will try to keep my system longer though to save more money cause these companies just draining us dry for very little improvement. So this means I buy your method but I think 10 years is too much.
I would love if this guy did the same with Intel amd AMD chips
For someone who only records audio and does little “in-the-box” but does utilize hardware for mixing, which DAW/computer combo is best?
I think you mean most DAWs can ONLY use performance cores. You kept saying most DAWs could only use effiency cores. I understood you, but this is for the viewer who doesn't know!!!
DAWBench always for the win
The efficiency cores are handling the non real-time events in the latest PT release. These newer processors M3s ARE faster, just don’t but a machine that has less performance cores than what you currently have. As a professional, you always need to do your homework when evaluating new hardware vs what your software can take advantage of. Same holds true for a non professional - know your tools.
I don’t think you need to upgrade every year or even every other year. I went from a 2015 mbp to a m3 max mbp. 10 years of use before needing to really switch. The software will always work with the hardware overtime. With Apple you can’t really change or upgrade the hardware so yeah I went with the m3. The m3 max should be way more than powerful to run any daw needs
I said in the video, I usually get 8 to 10 years out of my computer. My previous computer was a 2008 12 Core macPro.
I bought an M1 Macbook at launch and had to buy a Lenovo Legion because many plugins weren’t up and running on the M1. Long story short, the Lenovo is my main workstation now. I never thought I would move away from Apple, but the Legion is just better imo. I have 6TB on two fast internal SSDs along with 64GB memory, which is really the important thing for software instruments. Also, way more i/o than the M1. I don’t understand why Apple makes storage and memory prohibitively expensive to the extent they have done so and limits the i/o. Anyways, Apple is not the best choice if you run massive software libraries and use a lot of different controllers unless you want to spend $4-5k for $1k of hardware. It never used to feel this predatory, so Apple lost me as a customer.
Hate to say it but I feel like Apple is nerfing Logic on purpose. You have to go M Max to get more P cores vs a M Pro where Reaper uses both the 5 or 6 P cores plus E cores.
Seriously, for most of us a base M1 (upgraded memory if you use a ton of software instruments) is enough. Computers have far outpaced audio needs... because music stays the same (x tracks, x plug ins). We're just gear chasing anymore instead of just sitting down and recording.
Barry Johns: The epitome of sound wisdom.
Thanks for this Link Wonderful and shows others "just the facts". Watched the Suggested and Studio One will do for what I do, Reaper is great for utilization of performance cores & Threads. Shame on the other Daws. Thanks Again ! Happy Good Friday & Easter
Don't be too surprised by the Logic results. If I remember right, REAPER was Apple Silicon native before Logic was
if I'm not wrong, I remember Justin also saying one of the biggest reason why he made Reaper is because he couldn't get much done with Logic and couldn't understand what's going on under the hood of logic lol before he made Reaper.
@@rano12321 we were actually Vegas users. There was a lot we couldn't do in there, or any other DAW. When we met with Avid we were somewhat hoping PT could be made to do some of the things we really wanted, mostly routing wise. We had a pretty good sized list of features we wanted to see, but it wasn't anything ridiculous. The PT guys got back to us the next day at the Tony Maseratti tech breakfast and said some of the things on the list may be able to be done someday, but most of it were impossible. We had to be honest and admit "REAPER can already do this, beta days" and I guess that meant we had to actually make the thing forever.
There is a setting in Logic that lets you allocate all the cores. It’s been there as long as I have used it since M2 Pro came out I believe. The default frees up the efficiency cores so it doesn’t lock up your system if you have a memory leak with a plugin
I've seen his video before, it was really well done. I think Apple is getting carried away with efficiency cores, we don't need that many.
Spot on brother ❤
I always have difficult in chosing a DAW
Studio One lagging behind is disappointing. Since Fender acquired Presonus, the developemnt of Studio One seems to have slowed down. I use both, Studio one and Cubase. Studio One has been my Go-To in the last couple of years but this is changing towards Cubase again. What Cubase/Steinberg have done lateley, e.g. performance improvements, Vocal strip, GUI etc is very impressive. Not even speaking about the synths+effects that come with Cubase Pro, which are in a class of their own. Are you listening Presonus?
thanks barry, great column today ! im lookin at upgrading at some point from my 2012 imac to a mac studio, but im gonna wait until they release an m3 version hopefully this year and hopefully they will have wittled out the bugs to utilise this issue , if they bring out a 27inch or 30inch imac that would suit me fine
Pro Tools 2024.3 now takes advantage of efficiency cores. It would be nice if you would do a little research before piggy backing on someone else’s research. Just saying…
only took them like 3+ years to add it. such a proud thing to say lol.
Encouraging words, very productive. Also completely irrelevant to the overall point.
I have a mac m3 pro chip 18gb RAM and i can literally run 50+ channel strips with autotune, various compressors, eq's and autotune without running any buses on logic pro x. It can also run Adobe premier pro, After Effects and run Logic Pro X at the same time without a single warning. Even rendering tracks and videos down its insanely quick in comparisons to my older i9 its just not even comparable... the m3 pro chip is a absolute monster. Maybe go go the pro model and not the base model? .. i duno.. I just can't see how anyone has performance issues with an m3 running a DAW.
I mentioned in the video that I have an M1 pro Mack, and I’ve never come close to pushing it to its limits. This video has nothing to do with running out of power. Realize, not every user has the same needs. This is more about how most digital audio workstations can you utilize the full potential of the computer. Those are different subjects.
@@BarryJohns fair enough mate. i was more referring to a lot of the comments i was reading haha A lot of your video’s actually encourage my purchases! Looking forward to a possible review of the new neve 1073 digital interface though 👀 “hint hint”
So he could do it across all DAW's? Except most Daw's don't support AU, compared to Vst so what's the missing variable?
Years ago now, I really liked my massively expensive PTHD, but it just couldn’t keep up, particularly with any native plugins. So ditched it. Now much better, but Apple is constantly developing hardware and OS beyond how DAW and plugin software developers can keep up.
I purchased the last Intel iMac fully specced when it came out. It performs worse than my 2012 iMac.
Apple Silicon improvements are based primarily around real-time graphics for Unreal and Unity. Lumen, Nanite, Hardware Raytracing. Messing up audio performance is a side effect.
I'm not entirely sure if this is completely accurate. Apple has altered the way they configure their chips. Previously, the M1 and M2 Pro and Max had identical CPUs. However, this is no longer the case; the M3 Max now comes in two versions, and the higher-end version boasts more performance cores, making it faster than any previous Mac. The most significant difference is with the M3 Pro, as some versions of this chip have fewer performance cores than the earlier M2 and M1 models. Based on my observation, it appears that software like Ableton and Logic only utilize performance cores if the buffer setting is under 256. If it's set to 512 or above, all cores are used, likely because latency is less of an issue at that point. I'm not entirely certain about this, but it seems to be the case with my Macs. I own an M1 Max MacBook Pro, an M2 Air, and I've just ordered a Mac Studio M2 Ultra to replace my 2019 Mac Pro. (what a waste that was)
Do you know if this is a problem with Intel based Windows PCs? Yes, they are x86 rather than ARM, but they have a similar "P Core/E Core" chiplet design.
yes, for such reason all higher-end workstation PCs use new generation of Xeons which have only P cores (unlike Core i9 which is limited to 8 P cores)
I love my M1 mac studio! Don't think ill need to upgrade for a long time
Hey Barry! Just curious as to the upcoming plans of Pro Tools hardware in case your in "the know". I see the talk about Atmos is all they talk about but I can't see that as any kind of priority amongst DAW users. Actually I haven't seen or heard any news from Avid at all. Like I said, just curious. Thanks!!
Reaper isn't open source.
I have a 2015 iMac and a 2015 MacBook Pro, I wanna upgrade, but I saw that same video and I’m holding off, I hope they fix it, or M4 fixes it
Unless I’m mistaken, the newest update for Pro Tools allows it to use all cores now.
You're correct.
yes and its been great!
Unbelievable that Apple’s own DAW, Logic, doesn’t make use of all cores out of the gate!!
It also depends on the size of the projects you work on. I run about 24 tracks per session, and Logic handles it well on an M3Pro 99.9% of the time. But, that being said, no wonder the EU sued Apple. They have figured out how to get your money over and over until it constitutes a screwing. If only "the best" were delivered in the best way.
Apple is getting lazy and very expensive in terms of Mac Pro hardware. Logic Pro is unable to fully use Apple's own CPUs.
I think efficiency cores are not made to be used by heavy workload tasks, so Apples decision not to use them in their DAW actually makes sense. They are intended to do all the other stuff in the background so the system remains fluent. The actual issue is that the M3 Pro has too many efficiency cores and too less performance cores.
You can turn them all on in the settings. But you shouldn’t. As you say, it can cause a freeze up because normally those cores are left available for the system to run other processes in the background.
Apple Logic Pro. . . SMH. I never give Apple the benefit of the doubt. I am somehow conditioned to believe that they throttle software to get you to upgrade hardware - and you actually mentioned that!
The Reason DAW also uses all cores but that was not tested. I am on an M1 MacBook Pro and it is close to Cubase performance.
Twice you said the DAWs only use the efficiency cores - wrong way round. The more backward DAWs use the PERFORMANCE cores only. The weird thing is Cubase doesn't distribute CPU properly on AMD 7950X processors which are 100% performance cores.
You got this one wrong and there are some issues with the original referenced video. Efficiency cores are useless for real time audio. When buying a computer for audio, get something with a larger number of performance cores. One badly optimized VST or AAX plugin isn’t a good comparison, AU is different.
very interesting says this Reaper user..... and I wonder about PC's........
My M1 Pro 14” still going strong. I’d rather have new instruments than new computers :)
Imagine buying an older system because updates aren't there yet. Frustrating, yes, but IMO, updates will be coming, It takes A LOT to bog down a system in audio production, but I get it.
Every time Barry talks about using efficiency and performance cores, he gets them backwards. The testing video he references has it right. Most DAWs use only the performance cores.
I know, sometimes I’m an idiot🤦♂️
This was gonna be my comment also. Barry, You got it backwards - it’s all about performance cores not efficiency cores. But your point is still valid.
Can’t you set Logic to utilize all the cores in the settings? You have to do it manually, the default settings don’t use all the cores as default so it doesn’t overload your system with a full session. You just have to go into the settings and set it to use all cores.
@@ghost-user559I believe you are correct….using all cores is an option which ones needs to set within Logic.
@@pangloss9 Yeah I think either the setting maybe didn’t exist when that other channel made that original testing video, or they just were not fully familiar with Logic. They have made some pretty significant updates since the new chips came out, so it would be easy to miss.
I'm on Cubase and also shocked about Logic when I saw that video. Just Bought a new Mac Mini Pro2.
Well Reaper runs on pretty much anything. I can run almost any incarnation of instruments and effects, really old and new. I am so embarrassed to say how old my PC is. I will be buying a much faster PC and hopefully a better interface (never a usb thing, fuck that shit) eventually.
I just want to compose on my rig, I need midi dins, in and out, 4 mic line ins would be good, thunderbolt is good. I have a wish list of simple features for a modern i/o but they are seriously not there in current offerings. When I bothered to try out Reaper yeas ago all my old kit, and i/o everything worked, from the get go. The universal lexicon of short cuts and expressions all worked.
If one is an old PC power user, getting into DAWs Reaper is brilliant. I could say that about Audacity as well. If you are slightly familiar with a few scripting languages even better.
Its why there are a zillion js scripts and actions for Reaper
The most powerful software ever created is ugly looking. The stock plugins are ugly, 3rd party offerings say by Kilohearts are not pretty either but powerful
With all the videos of you giving your opinion on companies not listening to their consumers, I'm surprised you didn't go with the peoples daw when switching from AVID.
In logic you can use all the performance cores you have to fix it in settings took me awhile to figure it out
I’m keeping my M1 Pro Max until Apple changes management. It’s all about cutting costs and raising profits now. The Jobs pipeline has been emptied and vision is gone.
What people don't understand is that apple repurposed their line with M3. The old ''Pro'' has become ''Max'' now. For instance If people were buying Pro for heavy workload with the M2 series, now they should buy Max with the M3 series. The Pro's have been downgraded for lesser and easier workload. And that's why when people start comparing old to new laptops, simple does't make sense...
Now as far as Logic, it does utilise all the cores when selected... Performance cores for the heavy workload and playback, sound engine etc..( what takes most of the cpu ), Efficiency cores for stability, GUI etc.. (what requires less cpu).. Efficiency cores are also responsible for all the background tasks outside of your DAW.
That way you have a very stable Logic Pro for example. While other daws like FL studio who utilise all the cores in a weird and inefficient way are not reliable and stable at all. Saying this from personal experience.
If you really want more power then M3 max with 12 performance cores is your best choice. Simple as that
Most people make the mistake of thinking that choosing the number of cores represents access to “all” processing, it doesn’t. It’s available power. Most DAW’s allow you to do that. This is not the same thing. Basically what this video is saying is that Logic simply can’t access “all” available power, so choosing cores in Logic is more like choosing a percentage of “available” power, not all “potential” power.
@@BarryJohns That's true and part of what I was saying. Logic gives you the option of selecting exactly how many cores you'd like Logic to use for all operations inside the DAW. It still utilises all the power it just doesn't allow to any efficiency cores to interfere with the main tasks while keeping the efficiency cores for less cpu hungry tasks related to the stability of the DAW. That way you have much better performance and efficiency. I personally don't want any efficiency core being involved with the main tasks inside Logic. I've pushed it to the maximum and I've noticed how well everything holds together for that reason. When the engine is overloaded and stops playback Logic is not even lagging.. you can save your project in peace and fix things. While if that happens in FL for example it simply crashes and that's it. Not to mention the fact that I can load 5 times more tracks, instruments and plugins in Logic.
The only criticism I have of your video, is that you got it backwards for the argument. He was stating that most DAWs only use the performance cores in the Apple silicon, not the performance and the efficiency ones.
Yea I do that a lot.
@@BarryJohns, but that doesn't take away from what you said in the video in my opinion, I think you nailed it on the head.
Apparently, M3 Ultra will have its efficiency cores removed to allow for more performance cores. Efficiency cores are a waste.
I'm transitioning to Cubase, after 15 years of being a Logic guy. Many things motivated me, performance is a huge deal.
Great video, Barry!!
I switched about 4 years ago. The unsolved Logic Pro single core peak issue got to me. Cubase cross grade offer was too good to pass. Never looked back since.
@@LoveMeBack Right? It's unbelievable that Cubase performs better in Mac than Logic! Insane.
@@Joe_Pass Makes no sense.
Have you gone into the settings and set the core number? You just have to flip a single setting.
@@ghost-user559If it was that simple I would still be on Logic.
The problem here is the M1 is more stable than the others because they have been around long enough for software developers to learn the ropes. Then came M2 Apple threw a wrench in the process because the code changed a bit. Causing bugs ie. (The comparison) As if March Pro Tools Studio 2024.3 actually use all cores on M2 Pro. Who knows how bad it will get as the Mx release. I hear Intel support ends at Sonoma. But this is a good point but apple need to slow down with their releases. I wouldn't be surprised if M1 support ends in 5-7yrs
What about Ableton Live on M1?
it had the worst performance.
I've been looking at Getting a MBP M1 Max simply coz M2 & M3 is just financially irresponsible 😂 😂
But once the ssd in the old machine runs out of juice it will be a brick = also financially irresponsible. I love and hate the Macs and am thinking about bailing back to pc.
Reaper!!!
I watched his videos some time ago. In the end I bought an M1 Max 32 GB 1 TB -- and it's (slightly!) slower than my i7 12700K 64G DDR4 2TB nVME :(
Mac more stable and lower latencies though... I have no interest in the later Apple Silicon so far. Oh, using Cubase/Reaper not Logic. Logic/Not very Pro Tools both suck at the moment, IMHO. I use huge numbers of VIs and plugins...
@Barry Johns Studio Talk. The test was not accurate as it only used one plug-in that isn’t optimized for all plug-in formats. So it wouldn’t perform well in all DAWs. A badly coded AU or AAX plug-in might not properly use the efficiency cores. This has been confirmed with other plugins.
You only need to use one plugin, optimized or not it would not have skewed the results. From most of the comments, the latest PT update a few days ago fixed it for ProTools.
@@BarryJohns AU doesn’t work the same. This is established.
You have me pondering something... what actually constitutes a 'pro' recording these days? The music from the bands I listen to primarily (60s through late 90s) sound wildly different from album to album and artist to artist. All the great engineers and producers knew how to pull something out of artists that seems more... tangible than anything I hear today. Everything I hear these days seems so homogenized in terms of production 'styles' or philosophies (if we dare call them that these days). There are tutorials littering the internet on 'how to sound [insert genre here]'.
Van Halen's first album. Those first few Boston CDs. Brothers in Arms. The super scooped clicky bass drum sound of Pantera. Anything Alan Parsons has ever done. Phil Spector. Operation: Mindcrime from Queensryche, which certainly has it's own sound. Aja. So many different flavors available on the sonic palate that just are no longer available as a fresh commodity these days.
To me, production is ART. Engineering, right along the same lines.
So, back to my question... what is the 'standard' these days? How does one determine if their mix is 'pro'? Is there room for sonic experimentation anymore?
It's almost as though the Windows fuckery has become less of an issue than Mac hardware compatibility fuckery.
I use Reaper exclusively. So many features that dont even exist on other expensive DAWS. BUT I do hate the way Reaper looks and the plugins are really not so great.
themes
@@rano12321 I know they kinda suck.