@Arkoudeides. That's objectively not true. Many key Christian thinkers were heavily influenced by neoplatonism. Many Christian philosophers and theologians used neoplatonism to argue for Christianity which helped in the formulation of integral Christian doctrine. I don't necessarily agree with Nietzche's quote because it seems like an incredibly reductionistic dismissal of Christianity and a failure to recognize where they diverge, but it's also false to say that Christianity has nothing whatsoever to do with neoplatonic thought.
Yes because Orthodoxy and all these institutions have been corrupted that's why Greeks (I am Greek) are totally lost and getting destroyed. The institutions and church is totally corrupt
I honestly think it goes far deeper than just simply religion... I may have a bias at play in my train of thought, but it honestly seems to me that Rome was intent on conquering the world in all aspects of life, and has quite frankly been successful. Consider language, military tactics, prevalence in literatures of various religions and writing style, art influence (all types), and just so much more. Going in depth on all of what I just pointed out, would probably be less than a blemish of a scratch on the tip of an ice berg that is hundreds of miles deep. Consider the fact that whomever writes history, controls the world. I seriously want to know just what is contained in the vault of the Vatican. There are always things that are completely off limits, whether it is to scholars or even cardinals. The only person that could probably view anything, would be the pope himself. Speaking of the Pope, just consider his role as the leader that has been deified... seems like an old tradition mentioned commonly. What exactly is in the vault of the Vatican? Why is it so secret? What is the true history of humanity? Just what level of control and influence do they actually have? Forget the Illuminati, they are nothing in comparison to Rome and the Vatican.
The Julio-Claudian emperors wanted to be worshipped as living gods. Their plan was to impose emperor worship on the empire. One religion makes an empire easier to rule. They hit a snag when they tried to impose emperor worship on the Jews. Before the War, there was a Roman propaganda campaign to soften Jewish resistance. Philo is an example. He was an Herodian, and they were very much allied with Rome as was their relatives, the Alexander family. The children of these families were educated in the imperial palace since Augustus. After the War, the Herods were rewarded by the new Flavian dynasty for their loyalty and given the authority to establish a new temple to replace their old income from the old temple. But the religion had to be Roman authorized. The Herods (and Alexanders) employed some Roman intellectuals to create a new religion from the pre-war propaganda, emperor worship, and raided the Iliad, Odyssey. Aeneid, and Septuagint for stories, but mostly the NT story of Jesus is the story of Titus conquering Judaea. Do not underestimate emperor worship. This was a full religion with gorgeous temples, incense, sermons, … the whole nine yards. Constantine was the one who made the laws requiring sons to have the same occupation as their fathers, thus starting feudalism which would last a thousand years until 1348 when the bubonic plague (temporarily?). broke the Church’s power, thus setting the stage for the Renaissance and the Reformation. The Church does not want you to know that the NT is an Herodian forgery. That’s the big secret.
It is really all "hidden in plain sight". The people behind Christianity, and many other scams, were identified by Plato as Sophists. In Plato's Protagoras they are described this way: “Now the art of the Sophist is, as I believe, of great antiquity; but in ancient times those who practiced it, fearing this odium, veiled and disguised themselves under various names, some under that of poets, as Homer, Hesiod, and Simonides, some, of hierophants and prophets, as Orpheus and Musaeus, and some, as I observe, even under the name of gymnastic‐masters, like Iccus of Tarentum, or the more recently celebrated Herodicus, now of Selymbria and formerly of Megara, who is a first‐rate Sophist. Your own Agathocles pretended to be a musician, but was really an eminent Sophist; also Pythocleides the Cean; and there were many others; and all of them, as I was saying, adopted these arts as veils or disguises because they were afraid of the odium which they would incur.” These were the men that built Plato's famous "Cave", Christianity, and many other frauds. Note that Plato states in the first line that Sophists "...fearing this odium, veiled and disguised themselves..." and then repeats these ideas in the last line saying "...adopted these arts as veils or disguises because they were afraid of the odium...". This repetition is one of the tricks employed by the Sophists themselves when they find the need to temporarily use words according to their literal meanings. Another example of this particular trick is found in Plato's Theaetetus where Socrates describes the Sophist Protagoras this way: “In the name of the Graces, what an almighty wise man Protagoras must have been! He spoke these things in a parable to the common herd, like you and me, but told the truth, his Truth, in secret to his own disciples.” In this second example the true meaning of "truth" was needed because the metaphoric "truth" relates to the half truths of allegoric writing which is literally false but hides real world knowledge. Socrates description of Protagoras has an obvious "parallel" to Christ: "With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything." Mark 4:33-34 This "parallel" was actually intended as an allusion to Plato's Protagoras designed to identify Jesus with Sophism. The Sophists are conmen that employ what is essentially an allegoric code and the numerous "parallels" between different writings are often simply allusions designed to provide the context necessary to decipher the allegory. However, the Sophists also like to tell the same story again and again but with different sets of metaphors and allusions and this can also result in apparent "parallels". This practice also provides the basis for the concept of "reincarnation" since the same story can be set in different literal times and places. Christianity actually emerged during a period known as the "Second Sophistic" but modern scholars ignore this fact because of the Pandora's Box that it opens. It seems likely that only a small minority of the current Church hierarchy are actual Sophists, and it is even possible that some Popes have been ignorant of the truth, but many others are undoubtedly are aware that their religion is a fraud because of the way pedophile priests are protected. There are also many secular Sophists who are actively engaged in manipulating our world and feeding the masses their allegories. Freemasonry is just one modern example, while movies such as The Matrix and They Live taunt us with some rather blatant admissions about what is really occurring. Context is the key that allows all the pieces to fall into place.
@ring-tone278 Are you trying to use scripture to help my case, or just simply be one of those people unironically quoting scripture? I'm rather curious, because if you are trying to help or save me, it really doesn't mean anything. Perhaps provide context in the future, either way... ambiguity is rather annoying.
@@charlesbrowne9590 interesting reply 💯💯💯💯 And we can understand why some attributes of jesus are shared with emperors...for exemple "being said to have a divine father and human mother" in order to assert divine kingship
I wouldn't rule out the probability that the incorporation of Platonic thought found its way into the primary history of the Bible. Is it a common source, or were the ancients right in recognizing, either Moses copied Plato or Plato copied Moses? I do think we should keep an open mind to a late Persian or hellenistic touch on the Bible's final touch-ups.
D my apologies for last night if I was out of line at all .. I'm far from the perfect Muslim, Definitely not the best example for the ummah 🤦♂️might've got extra defensive .. Hope all is well with u and yours 🤲🤲🤲
A skeleton Torah was likely at play around Ezra’s time, which was roughly contemporary with Plato. The Torah and books of history appear to be heavily redacted through a Greek lense! An important point you left out is that the books of history and the prophets never indicate the people were actually following the deuteronomic law , they mention following the Torah of YHWH but specific observance is never reflected. In other words it appears they weren’t aware of the Torah in any meaningful way. Further, archeology is replete with evidence that Israel was no different than the surrounding culture. I think this model is starting to have some explanatory power!!! Keep up the good work.
For whatever reason, all of this evidence for late redaction and Greek influence in the O.T.- is as emotionally disturbing to me as the initial deconstruction. Yet I sensed a more recient historical paradigm in stories like Cane and Able, but didn't know enough to find what culture influence was underlying it.
The more we help people understand that they can have purpose and community outside of religious belief, the easier it will be for them to open up to this information. 😌
Hello dear MythVision. Thanks for your videos and for trying to show us different views on myths in general. I haven't seen all your videos, cause it take me some bit of effort as I'm not an English native. So, considering how important I think are your videos, Is it posible that they can be tralslated and subtitled into Spanish language? I could share your videos to so many people that can not see them right now. If that is not possible, thanks anyway and I hope you continue with this great proyect 😍. I'm chilean, by the way, from a far far away country 😊.
I think I can help in this: I know both Plato and Moses. They partnered up pre-COVID, and opened up the kosher 🇮🇱 gyros 🇬🇷 🥙 joint down the street from my place. The Greek is definitely older (his real name is actually Aristokles, but after the arson incident he now goes by Plato). Plato is in his late sixties, while Moshe is barely thirty-five!
Aristokles’s infamous arson incident was a little trick borrowed frmo Moshe (pronounced Mush) called ‘Jewish lightening’, in order to collect insurance.
There's absolutely no argument for Plato using any Bible because he lived hundreds of years before any Bible or any so-called gospels, and we know Plato actually existed unlike Moses
@@MythVisionPodcastPorphyry may have been onto something when he suggested that Ezra, not Moses, wrote down the Mosaic traditions. (see Deuteronomy 34:10, 2 Kings 22:8, 2 Chronicles 34:14)
@@GabrielEddyThis was a common idea. The line of reasoning was that the Babylonians destroyed every copy of Torah so when the Jews were allowed back to Judea Ezra and Nehemiah had to rewrite the entire thing. Clement of Alexandria goes over it as well.
Interesting. I think you have amassed enough material to make us think about this more deeply rather than dismiss out of hand. It is now an interesting area of inquiry. My view is that the Torah is composed of older elements with redaction and compilation with some ancient material. However it is possible that if someone had knowledge of Plato that might influence their redaction. It is still possible that Plato was aware of the Hebrew laws, unlikely he copied them. It is also interesting to explore that these writings are mutially related to some degree and worthy of investigation.
Yeah, the Jews of that era were fundamentalists - of course they would claim antiquity. Taking the word, of fundamentalists, just because it was written 2000 years ago, is as strange as taking it serious today. The reason why the greek writings is so much more plausible and not being what amount to ancient tin foil hattery, *is the source referencing.* Moses historicity is about as certain as Odin/Wodin/Wotan.
Also when you look at history, there is more bullet holes in Judaism. Why would Jews return to live in Egypt when it is forbidden for them to return to live with their slave owners in Egyot? When Cleopatra the Seventh, the wife of JUlius Ceasar, she was a pharaoh of Egypt when the Jews immigrated to Alexandria Egypt. She allowed them to immigrate and granted them the right of commerce and the right to practice their religion. --- this is history. But there is nothing on Egypt's walls about Jews being slaves there, nor a famouse exodus there -- nothing . Also, the anscestors of Cleopatra were the first to translate the Torah of Moses into Greek. So, she was aware of the 5 books of Moses since a relative of her translated it into Greek. But had there been any records of Jews being enemies of Egypt, probably, Cleopatra would have genocide them since they were considered enemies of Egypt, or Her husband Julius Ceasar -- Rome would have genocide them. But because there is no historical records saying Jews were slaves in Egypt, Jews are enemies of Egypt and about a famouse Exodus, Cleopatra granted them residency in Egypt. But it leaves the question, why would run-away Jews return to live with their slave masters? Is like USA, why would run-away-African-Amricans return to live in slave states? Logic, common sense, survival instant, dictates, you want to get away from there possible, never return.
I’m wondering if this copying happened shortly before the Hellenistic era, because after Alexander’s conquest Greek culture became dominant in the Middle East. Wouldn’t it have been too obvious that the Torah was forged and borrowing from the Greeks? Whereas earlier, when the area was ruled by Persians and Greece was a more exotic and unknown place, the Jewish commoners would be more ignorant that their own elites are borrowing ideas from the Greeks.
Lots of good scholarship brought to light. My only issue was that at the beginning it was a bit scatter-shot. By the way, is Neal involve in writing the script? Just curious. Keep up the good work!
I love how this discussion taps into one of the greatest taboos in a way that one can discover it without being told explicitly. The taboo that people were not living in isolated bubbles and that ideas , culture, beliefs changed and adapted over time and by culture. Usually there is the focus on making neighboring people and cultures "other" and certain people as "special". When you can see all the different cultures influence you can see people are more alike than different. Plus, you can see that ideas are things that change in time.
Knowing how much the Hebrew Bible borrowed from other mythologies and religions why shouldn’t that apply to borrowing from Plato also? Seems completely logical. Good job telling this in a clear, concise way.
Those myths aren't at all mythical. The book of Enoch predates Greek civilization and explains what the Greek myths are , the fallen angels and nephilum .
@@Heracles_FE The Epic of Gilgamesh predates the book of Enoch by about 1,000 years. The Hebrew Bible borrowed heavily from it, including the creation myth and the flood myth as well as other parts. This information is readily available online. It is much better to do your homework before you make claims that are incorrect. Christianity is based in large part on Mithraism, often called the seed of Christianity. The entire Bible is a mashup of other more ancient mythologies and belief systems. Nothing new.
@26beegee This is history , not myth . And the idea that Christianity is based in anything other than a garbled history of Yashua by the Roman's because they preferred to remain pagans is a philosophical choice by intellectual idiots . Enoch is the history of Gilgamesh's ancestors.
@@Heracles_FE I’m sorry you think the Bible is history. Both Christian and non-Christian Bible scholars don’t believe most of what is in the Bible is historically accurate and do not believe in a literal interpretation. Some actual places and historic figures are included but, that doesn’t make the book historically accurate. It is historic fiction, a genre of literature that has existed for millennia. Just because New York is a real piece doesn’t mean Spider-Man was real either. Only a small percentage of Christians (mostly American evangelicals) believe the Bible is literally and factually accurate and true. Look it up if you don’t believe me. Don’t mean to burst your bubble but, everyone should know the truth. There are dozens of Bible scholars with RUclips channels, podcasts, websites and other social media accounts where you can learn college level scholarship for free! I encourage you to investigate for yourself. Don’t just take the word of your pastor, friends or family who do not have a formal education about this topic. I made that mistake and was misinformed. They had good intentions but, were also misinformed.
@@Heracles_FE based off of myth and people of that time Jewish tradition the Leviathan was created on the fifth day, 2baruch 29:4 also Genesis 1: 20- 35 serpent monster Yahweh Satan 😆 Prince of power of the air Ephesians 2:2.. Isaiah 27:1 the twisting spirit serpent and also the Book of Job 41:1 through 2 the fleeing serpent
How is it possible they were having this debate only two hundred years after Plato? The Romans recognizes Judaism as an ancient religion, 200 years isnt ancient which leads me to believe the Torah is older than Plato. Would love to hear ideas
Great show 👍. Thanks. A former Catholic Priest Alan Watts claimed that they made it all up. And that we are and Everything is God, in his lecture - On Being God.
@@Eman_PuedamaThese people don’t care about facts lol they want to feed their bias that they are being lied to about jesus as if it’s something bad lmao
I don't mean to discredit all the work these scholars have put into their research. But we can use the same arguments some use against the antiquity of the Bible text. The oldest fragmentary copies of Plato's works go back to 300 BC... so
Man I feel like I’m listening to a college professor in a lecture hall. You’re getting too far from what made your channel great. What I wouldn’t give to here you going back and forth with Dr. Bob.
The most likely scenario is that different ideas popped all over the place where they were discussed, mutated, and influenced each other. By the time they were written down anywhere, they probably existed for a long time. It's like different jokes that exist everywhere but all have similar punchlines.
The problem is the timelines. Most scholars believe that Ezra wrote, edited, or compiled the first five cooks of Moses. The problem with this being a copy of Plato, is that Plato was born 13 years after Ezra had died. Those timelines could be off a few years, but not much. It is probable that there was a Greek influence, trade and cultural exchange in the Mediterranean was common. It is completely different to believe that Plato influenced a text, that even liberal scholars, believe was compiled before his birth. It is likely that both works were influenced by similar sources.
......and 100 years ago most scholars believed that Moses wrote the first 5 books. Perhaps most scholars are wrong again about Ezra compiling the books of Moses.
The whole conversion is lead with a false premise, did the jews borrow from pagans and apply pagan beliefs retroactively moses' god. The god of moses _WAS_ a pagan god. The ninth century inscription from the edomite region shows Yahweh of Samaria and his Asherah. Yahweh of Tenmah (Yemen) and his asherah. Moses did not discover Yahweh, he was an pagan Arabian god. In my opinion he is the combination of the judean Yahu and power aspects from Egypt. We can argue about whether Moses existed or not, i tend to think he did, but the wisdom volcano god who has a body which moses could see is a tell-tale sign of a pagan god. William Propp in his exodus 1-18 makes it clear that jews viewed moses' god in two ways. A god whom is intriduced to moses by El or a god who communicates with moses using angels. These reflect two views they attempt to merge in the text. The old view in which Yahweh was subservient to the father god and the new view in which Yahweh replaces the father gods, and turns his children and angels alike into his servants. We have to assume the older view was the original view. This view is pre-platonic, like a millenium before. So thats not even a question on the table. The question is did the Jewish writers of the 4th to 6th century alter their views to have a more platonic view of gods, or did this come from earlier zoroastrian influences or did the Jews come up with this on their own. Again there is a heavy hand of the priestly source in Exodus, and its pretty clear this is late and likely tied to a change in the lineage of the high priest during the early/mid second temple period. So its possible that platonic ideas are being added. But lets roll the clock back to sennacharib and the mess his family created. While for a time it look as if the chaldeans and canaanite cities would put Assyria back in their places, in the face of Assyrias (head god Asshur) the coalition under El failed. Isaiah makes the point that the other gods could defend off the assyrians from Judea or the northern kingdom, then those gods were dead to him. This is the first indication why the Jews began the process toward monotheism. Prior to that point, as we use the word pagan, Yahweh is a pagan god. And to Ezekial, who can see gods dangly bits in the temple, hes seeing what we would call a pagan god. In the process of 150 years, Akkad and Sumer would dissappear and the mesopotamian gods would be corrupted by exterior influences until they vanished. In fact we can think of Yahweh as one of the earliest corruptions, a chimera between a mesoptamuan wisdom god and a Egyptian/arabian/ethopian power god. And so when did Jews decide that, at least for them, only one god had any power. This is a difficult question, because the remnant of the olde religion still exists in modern judaism. Its almost if they are idolizing the other gods, but removed the names and convinced themsleves the other gods dont exist (e.g, Menorah). It not that they changed the belief so much as they reworded the meaning so that in scrubed itself of the complex relationships between gods. When we ask the question, who influenced what first? we get into a semantic problem of meaning and key abstractions. And abstractions are difficult to patent. Lets say X invents idea 1 and Y idea 2. Both become popular. X borrows a little bit of 2 and Y borrows a little bit of 1 so that we have 1a and a 1b varient that looks alot like 2. And 2a and 2b varient, which looks alot like 1. Thats the problem in exodous; there are at least two varients 1a and 1b, both authoritative or popular enough that they need be included. The question is what precedences lead to 1a and what outside influences lead to 1b. I would love to say, for certain Yahu was a mediterranean transit arabian Enki cult that imported and adapa mystical cult that trasformed itself into an omnigod cult, but I have to take the scholarly perspective that we just do don't know. The only thing we know is during the last years of sennacharib that the judeans began a process of trimming gods from their religion until they trimmed the father and mother gods. That is the jewish meaning of Yahweh, whatever meaning Yahweh had before that is purely acedemic and not of any religious value, those old gods are all dead.
A skeleton Torah was likely at play around Ezra’s time, which was roughly contemporary with Plato. The Torah and books of history appear to be heavily redacted through a Greek lense! An important point you left out is that the books of history and the prophets never indicate the people were actually following the deuteronomic law , they mention following the Torah of YHWH but specific observance is never reflected. In other words it appears they weren’t aware of the Torah in any meaningful way. Further, archeology is replete with evidence that Israel was no different than the surrounding culture. I think this model is starting to have some explanatory power!!! Keep up the good work.
If there is no certainty of Moses’ existance, there should be less evidence for the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This really makes you think who controls the narrative
" This really makes you think who controls the narrative" - there's no mysterious conspiracy at work here. We know who "controls the narrative". Specifically, the religious leaders are the ones who such a thing. That is what _orthodoxy_ and _orthopraxy_ are all about.
It was never a serious question to anyone with even cursory knowledge of the Bible knows of its roots in Greco-Roman Hellenist thought (as well as Jewish and Zoroastrianism tradition). This is the first I've ever heard of the reverse claim, and it is obsard to think Plato took from the fictional character of Moses.
The flaw here is 1) assuming Moses was real. For many of us, this is indulging a fantasy for the sake of argument rather than a serious supposition. Moses is a fiction. 2) By trying to prove the Greek sources as older - which I'm sure they are - you've played into the same argument the Jews were making in that older means true. Older means validity. With that in mind, why are we trying to prove the Greek sources are first? Everyone already knows that the books attributed to the fictional Moses were based on myths brought back by the Israelites returning from the Neo-Babylonian exile at the end of the 6th century BCE, then edited and revised for roughly another hundred years into their final form.
It's still interesting to explore the origins of these stories, just like it is with all mythology around the world. Just finding stories entertaining doesn't mean we necessarily view all or any part of them as being actually real.
@@shanegooding4839 That's all completely beside the point. You can speak about the origins of various philosophies and stories without having to first imagine a fictional character is real nor make an issue about which came first, as if that matters.
Which texts came first, is important for having an accurate view of history. That doesn't mean that the religious/philosophical texts are true or valid.
@@lovestarlightgiver2402 I'd agree except that you and I must have been watching different videos. The entire premise - let me say it again - the entire premise was whether or not the Pentateuch had been influenced by Plato or vis-versa. It was also stated repeatedly that in order to defend the validity of the scriptures many ancient scholars insisted that Greek philosophy had no influence. So, prima facia, the debate wasn't just which one came first, but also about the divine source of scripture and thus it's validity. Do you not get that? Yes, it's nice to know the order of appearance of ideas in history, but that wasn't the premise nor point of this video.
@@juliancate7089 Yes, "ancient authors" cared about which came first to try to defend the validity of divine origin. Regardless of which were written first, there is no evidence of either being of "divine origin", rather than the writings of men which eventually became saved and popular.
According to the archeological research of Simcha Jacobici, Moses is actually dated to 1500 BCE. Please check out his documentary, "Decoding the Exodus."
It seems obvious when you think about the Hellenic period in the Near East that Greek influence had to be significant. There is even some evidence to suggest that circumcision was more widespread there amongst non-Jews before the coming of the Greeks who considered it a barbaric custom.
This is all very convincing, there's no doubt about it. The thing I can't square is when scholars' talk about Biblical Hebrew etc and being able to see the difference in the ages of the writings... But, then I was wondering, beside the Hebrew Bible, how much extra-biblical writing even exists? I'd love to hear a discussion on this topic as all of this is fascinating...but super confusing. ✌️😂
Moses lived about 1,000 years BEFORE Plato was born! How could Biblical authors be influenced by a culture that DID NOT exist at the time? The Hellenistic Period began during the Inter-Testamental Period mean 2 centuries AFTER the last book of the Old Testament was written.
@@thetruthchannel349 good point, check out dr. Jacob Wright’s latest book Why the Bible was written. He shows compelling evidence that the early writings actually came after the destruction of the N & S Israel kingdoms.
Evidently, Moses could not have borrowed from Plato, since he was a millennium earlier than the Greek. However, the authors of the Bible... that is a different story...
Dude. Even if Ezra were the actual author of the Books of Moses, there’s still no way he could’ve borrowed from Plato. The beginning of the second temple began 110 years before the birth of Plato.
Better titled “Justin Martyr vindicated: Plato definitely ripped off some Moses!” While the theory that Ezra was the first to write down the “oral Torah” attributed to Moses is a fairly well-known and evidenced alternative theory to traditional Moses attribution, Ezra’s active years still predates both Plato and Socrates.
Ι ΤΗΙΝΚ PLATONAS LIVED IN THE 5TH CENTURY BC. HE WAS A STUDENT IF SOCRATES. SOCRATES FOUGHT THE PERSIANS AROUND 500 BC IN MARATHON. HE ACTUALLY WROTE DOWN EVERYTHING SOCRATES TEACHED.
THE GREEK PHILOSOPHERS HAD A DIFERENT FROM EGYPT , BACK GROUND OF AT LEAST 1000 YEARS BEFORE 650 BC THAT SOLON LIVED IN ATHENS , AND HE VISITED EGYPT. AFTER 330 BC EGYPT WAS RULED FROM MAKEDON GREEKS UP TO THE ROMANS.
You need a Copyrighter who isn’t academically inclined and who also knows nothing about the topic. Trim. It. Down. Stop trying to co-mingle elaborate metaphors within highly technical phrases
One little problem with your theory the Bible was written about the 10 century BCE and completed around 100 BCE and Aristophanes wasn't born for another 200years
Hi, Mythvision check out Androcles in the lion's den - Aesops Fables. Aesop was born in 620 BCE the setting of Daniel in the lion's den in the reign of King Darius - who ruled 539 - 525 BCE up to nearly 100 years later
Back then when it was written, "HEBREWS" today's culture "My Hebrews and Shebrews!" Isn't there a story of a guy that pissed off god or gods named Gilgamesh that the Jews and Gentians then changed to Noah? I can't remember the Egyptian Heros story(ies) of someone being killed and then brought back, along with the Nile and basket story?
Almost. Gilgamesh met another guy called Ziusudra who was later changed to Noah. Horus was inspiration for Moses, but they didn't need Osiris for Jesus. They had already Romans at home, who could tell them of the resurrections of Caesar, Hercules and Romulus.
There were Jews living in Athens at the time of Plato. He would have heard them from time to time about the Torah (old testament) and their history, but nothing new testament yet.
All 3 of these nations ruled and occupied the Levant. 1. Ashur - Assyrian creator (7th century BCE) Clay tablets in Turkish museum. 2. Marduk - Babylonian creator - (586 - 538 BCE) Clay tablets in Turkish museum. The Enuma Elish also refers to Izdubar the literal translation of Gilgamesh (the great deluge) 3. Ahura Mazda - Persian creator (538 - 332 BCE) one of the oldest known religions (Zoroastrianism). Ahura Mazda and the god of the bible are virtually interchangeable. The Persian Period, also referred to as the Second Temple Period is when the Torah (Hebrew Law, first 5 books of the bible) is thought to have been compiled and edited (around 450 BCE). it is it believed that Hebrew Law came into practice about 444 BCE.
Clearly the New testament borrowed Greek and Roman ideology. No one will debate that, but the old testament is trickier. You would have to prove that the Torah was written during or after Babylonian captivity, but the books of the prophets were the books of that time, not likely the Torah. Imagine the Jews having so much traditions unique to them, not having their own religious text by the time they were taken captive by Babylonians/Assyrians. It makes little sense that the Jews had started writing down their history so late. Now the prophetic books, like Isaiah through Malachi, may have influence from Greek philosophy, but the Greeks were not a world power at the time. Their philosophy wouldn't be as desired to be known as much as the Persian philosophy at the time, which some Greek philosophers definitely learned under the Persian Magi. The books of the bible, which stories take place in a Greco dominated world, make up the apocrypha, which I don't think y'all are aiming to debate any of the books that are considered 'extra biblical' or 'non canon', despite the apocrypha being quite historical. In terms of Plato not giving credit to the Jews. The Jews were most likely a sovereignty of Persia at the time. The Apocryphal books, especially the Maccabees, mention that the Jews had gone from being allies to the Egyptians, then flipping sides and teaming up with Persians, than back to the Egyptians, then to the Greeks, etc, but the Maccabees is 167 bc. At the time when Greece was a world power, the Jews were getting taken over left and right. The thing is, the Apocryphal time was after Plato, so at that point it makes sense to say that the Jews would have borrowed from the Greeks. Matter fact, some theologians argue that the Jews changed their calendar to fit the Greco dominated world. The Bible is full of verses that talk about the Jews trying to be like other nations, but those nations were typically connected to or were the world power at the time. So for the Apocryphal and NT books, you will probably find all the evidence you need to say the Jews took from the Greeks, but as for the Torah, good luck proving that. Why can't we just take the Greek philosopher's own writings as proof. If they themselves say they learned from other nations, why is it hard to accept it? If there are similarities in Jewish and Greek philosophy, it's probably because both of them took from Egyptian and Mesopotamian philosophy, not each other until much later.
@@TheDanEdwards EDIT: I meant no one in this Myth Vision community will probably debate that lol, but yeah I should have been more clear. Most people commenting on these videos are not fundamentalist, and many are probably atheist I take it. I am obviously not a fundamentalist, but there are a minority of Christians that believe that Christianity was corrupted by the Romans during the council of Nicaea. How so many Christians could think that its ok that a council of Romans, and many other nations took part in deciding how to define God, and if Jesus was a prophet or God himself, decided which books didn't fit their narrative, and even admitted political incentives for unification of religion and state, think that the NT isn't strongly influenced by Greco-Roman philosophy, is blind as a bat. Most Christians are told that the Bible is a Christian book, and God has protected it from corruption. The Bible didn't exist before the Council of Nicaea, just the Torah, Books of the prophets, the Wisdom teachings of Solomon, the Apocrypha, and the Gospels; just a bunch of books that were separated, no cannon. The Bible is a Roman creation. Many of the books may be Jewish books, but the Romans decided what books fit their agenda, not the Jews. Holy Bible is Helios Biblos, or Sun Book. Jesus isn't the name of the Jewish savior, Jesus or Iyesus means hail Zues. Yahuwah or Yahushua is the rightful name of the son of God.
We can't discount the possibility of later editorialising of earlier Jewish writings that may have already shared these parallels you mention either. For example Hurrian mythology bears a number of clear similarities to that of the Greeks. We know that the Hurrians are most likely to have been the people who contributed DNA from the Caucasus to ancient Palestine, so those beliefs must have been present there to some extent as well. Later when early Jews noticed similarities that they shared with the Greeks because of these ancestors they could very well have incorporated actual Greek ideas that they liked into their existing writings.
@@shanegooding4839 The only thing is that Jews didn't edit the current Bible we are talking about---Rome did, then England later on, then different regions made little re-translations and edits to their version. It's why their are over 50-100 different Bibles. Jews have little to do with NT edits, but if you are talking strictly OT edits, then yeah they could have and probably did do that during the Maccabean era, but what if some of their edits were edited by the Council of Nicaea later on? I think some of the Apocryphal books hint or mention that a new priesthood was implemented by the Greeks that replaced the true Levites. The priests that were there at the time of Jesus were not part of the Levite bloodline. So with a new priest group, they most likely did edit some of the older books, and applied Greek ideology. This is why the Dead Sea Scrolls are so important, because they would have represented the uncorrupted Jewish versions. But good point you made.
Fascinating, uncovering what may be the source of Moses material inspired by the Hellenistic world. The true source may be even older. I just read an article in IFLScience about the discovery of the Pythagorean Theorem Found On a Babylonian Clay Tablet 1,000 Years Older Than Pythagoras.
Moses lived 1,000 years earlier than Plato. So, no, the Alexandrian school that hodge-podged Judaism, Christianity and Islam borrowed from Plato ... who borrowed from earlier thinkers such as the Egyptians and Sumerians.
Definitely an interesting idea. I was already familiar with the topic of Plato copying the Old Testament (Where I agree with you that his openness of his sources makes the lack of Hebrews pretty compelling), but I hadn't seen the reverse. Even if they didn't directly copy the Greeks, they certainly could have been writing down their own stories into the OT for the first time and casting it in a Greek mold..
My questions is. Was it all just mvde up during the Babylonian captivity???? There's that passage in 2nd Kings about "hey look what we found cleaning up this closet in the temple! Its the law given to us via Moses from Lord YHWH!" Was that passage written as a cover story? Edit: and why? So that they could be better unified in some kind of national identity? Did the Babylonidns or Persians come up with it? Pisses me off and excites me at the same time!
This aligns with what J. Wright shows in his book -Why the Bible was written. Suggesting that this mythical pre history was written after the N&S Israel kingdoms fell.
What are your thoughts on Pythagoras being during the time of King Cyrus and him living in Persia during the Greco-Persian Wars. Btw, Pytagoras considered Jews as Syriac people who practiced Circumcision. I happen to believe that Pythagoras was a prophet of God but his teachings were overshadowed by Athenian ways.
Derek, to me we spend way too much time studying ourselves and the past. In my view I need to turn from the dust of history and test my personal belief that Jesus is the Spirit of God in the flesh. In me.
And what is the source of a spirit in you ,where did it come from before clothing itself in what you term "YOU", and where will it go after the cloth "YOU" is no longer usable to achieve what the spirit requires here?
Brilliant podcast as usual Sometimes the most obvious evidence is overlooked for being too obvious. The overwhelming majority of speakers or characters in Socratic dialogues are attested to historically; Timaeus is not one of those That Plato names Socrates foil as a near homonym to the creators foil, Tiamat, is perhaps the most striking evidence that the biblical stories came first
You need someone to just view it and double check. Text graphics were a mess. Good content. A bit too flowery for my taste. I would save the flowery stuff for moments when it's appropriate. Sparingly.
“Christianity is Platonism for the masses” - Friedrich Nietzsche
There is nothing common between orthodoxy and platonism. Greetings from Greece.
@Arkoudeides. That's objectively not true. Many key Christian thinkers were heavily influenced by neoplatonism. Many Christian philosophers and theologians used neoplatonism to argue for Christianity which helped in the formulation of integral Christian doctrine. I don't necessarily agree with Nietzche's quote because it seems like an incredibly reductionistic dismissal of Christianity and a failure to recognize where they diverge, but it's also false to say that Christianity has nothing whatsoever to do with neoplatonic thought.
Yes because Orthodoxy and all these institutions have been corrupted that's why Greeks (I am Greek) are totally lost and getting destroyed. The institutions and church is totally corrupt
This is really well argued. Congrats on taking such a complicated subject and making it so clear.
I honestly think it goes far deeper than just simply religion... I may have a bias at play in my train of thought, but it honestly seems to me that Rome was intent on conquering the world in all aspects of life, and has quite frankly been successful. Consider language, military tactics, prevalence in literatures of various religions and writing style, art influence (all types), and just so much more. Going in depth on all of what I just pointed out, would probably be less than a blemish of a scratch on the tip of an ice berg that is hundreds of miles deep. Consider the fact that whomever writes history, controls the world. I seriously want to know just what is contained in the vault of the Vatican. There are always things that are completely off limits, whether it is to scholars or even cardinals. The only person that could probably view anything, would be the pope himself. Speaking of the Pope, just consider his role as the leader that has been deified... seems like an old tradition mentioned commonly.
What exactly is in the vault of the Vatican? Why is it so secret? What is the true history of humanity? Just what level of control and influence do they actually have?
Forget the Illuminati, they are nothing in comparison to Rome and the Vatican.
The Julio-Claudian emperors wanted to be worshipped as living gods. Their plan was to impose emperor worship on the empire. One religion makes an empire easier to rule. They hit a snag when they tried to impose emperor worship on the Jews. Before the War, there was a Roman propaganda campaign to soften Jewish resistance. Philo is an example. He was an Herodian, and they were very much allied with Rome as was their relatives, the Alexander family. The children of these families were educated in the imperial palace since Augustus. After the War, the Herods were rewarded by the new Flavian dynasty for their loyalty and given the authority to establish a new temple to replace their old income from the old temple. But the religion had to be Roman authorized. The Herods (and Alexanders) employed some Roman intellectuals to create a new religion from the pre-war propaganda, emperor worship, and raided the Iliad, Odyssey. Aeneid, and Septuagint for stories, but mostly the NT story of Jesus is the story of Titus conquering Judaea.
Do not underestimate emperor worship. This was a full religion with gorgeous temples, incense, sermons, … the whole nine yards.
Constantine was the one who made the laws requiring sons to have the same occupation as their fathers, thus starting feudalism which would last a thousand years until 1348 when the bubonic plague (temporarily?). broke the Church’s power, thus setting the stage for the Renaissance and the Reformation.
The Church does not want you to know that the NT is an Herodian forgery. That’s the big secret.
It is really all "hidden in plain sight". The people behind Christianity, and many other scams, were identified by Plato as Sophists. In Plato's Protagoras they are described this way:
“Now the art of the Sophist is, as I believe, of great antiquity; but in ancient times those who practiced it, fearing this odium, veiled and disguised themselves under various names, some under that of poets, as Homer, Hesiod, and Simonides, some, of hierophants and prophets, as Orpheus and Musaeus, and some, as I observe, even under the name of gymnastic‐masters, like Iccus of Tarentum, or the more recently celebrated Herodicus, now of Selymbria and formerly of Megara, who is a first‐rate Sophist. Your own Agathocles pretended to be a musician, but was really an eminent Sophist; also Pythocleides the Cean; and there were many others; and all of them, as I was saying, adopted these arts as veils or disguises because they were afraid of the odium which they would incur.”
These were the men that built Plato's famous "Cave", Christianity, and many other frauds. Note that Plato states in the first line that Sophists "...fearing this odium, veiled and disguised themselves..." and then repeats these ideas in the last line saying "...adopted these arts as veils or disguises because they were afraid of the odium...". This repetition is one of the tricks employed by the Sophists themselves when they find the need to temporarily use words according to their literal meanings. Another example of this particular trick is found in Plato's Theaetetus where Socrates describes the Sophist Protagoras this way:
“In the name of the Graces, what an almighty wise man Protagoras must have been! He spoke these things in a parable to the common herd, like you and me, but told the truth, his Truth, in secret to his own disciples.”
In this second example the true meaning of "truth" was needed because the metaphoric "truth" relates to the half truths of allegoric writing which is literally false but hides real world knowledge.
Socrates description of Protagoras has an obvious "parallel" to Christ:
"With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything." Mark 4:33-34
This "parallel" was actually intended as an allusion to Plato's Protagoras designed to identify Jesus with Sophism. The Sophists are conmen that employ what is essentially an allegoric code and the numerous "parallels" between different writings are often simply allusions designed to provide the context necessary to decipher the allegory. However, the Sophists also like to tell the same story again and again but with different sets of metaphors and allusions and this can also result in apparent "parallels". This practice also provides the basis for the concept of "reincarnation" since the same story can be set in different literal times and places.
Christianity actually emerged during a period known as the "Second Sophistic" but modern scholars ignore this fact because of the Pandora's Box that it opens. It seems likely that only a small minority of the current Church hierarchy are actual Sophists, and it is even possible that some Popes have been ignorant of the truth, but many others are undoubtedly are aware that their religion is a fraud because of the way pedophile priests are protected. There are also many secular Sophists who are actively engaged in manipulating our world and feeding the masses their allegories. Freemasonry is just one modern example, while movies such as The Matrix and They Live taunt us with some rather blatant admissions about what is really occurring.
Context is the key that allows all the pieces to fall into place.
@@charlesbrowne9590 I appreciate this reply.
@ring-tone278 Are you trying to use scripture to help my case, or just simply be one of those people unironically quoting scripture? I'm rather curious, because if you are trying to help or save me, it really doesn't mean anything. Perhaps provide context in the future, either way... ambiguity is rather annoying.
@@charlesbrowne9590 interesting reply 💯💯💯💯
And we can understand why some attributes of jesus are shared with emperors...for exemple "being said to have a divine father and human mother" in order to assert divine kingship
It follows that the staff of Moses was "borrowed" from the staff of Asclepius.
It does appear that almost all the stories in the Bible comes from older myths.
Son wukong's staff, anyone?
Nu of egyptian myth, the source of staff and the menorah. Joshua, descendant of Nun.
Your content is consistently increasing in quality.
Dude, the blue looks very good on camera, your shirt with the background, good stuff.
I wouldn't rule out the probability that the incorporation of Platonic thought found its way into the primary history of the Bible. Is it a common source, or were the ancients right in recognizing, either Moses copied Plato or Plato copied Moses? I do think we should keep an open mind to a late Persian or hellenistic touch on the Bible's final touch-ups.
D my apologies for last night if I was out of line at all .. I'm far from the perfect Muslim, Definitely not the best example for the ummah 🤦♂️might've got extra defensive .. Hope all is well with u and yours 🤲🤲🤲
@heezyhines2209 thanks alot brother, that means alot to hear.
@@MythVisionPodcast No doubt fam 💯
❤Us atheist have to stick together. Like a flock of sheep going to the slaughter. Jesus lovers had there turn. Now it's ours. Yaaaa
A skeleton Torah was likely at play around Ezra’s time, which was roughly contemporary with Plato. The Torah and books of history appear to be heavily redacted through a Greek lense! An important point you left out is that the books of history and the prophets never indicate the people were actually following the deuteronomic law , they mention following the Torah of YHWH but specific observance is never reflected. In other words it appears they weren’t aware of the Torah in any meaningful way. Further, archeology is replete with evidence that Israel was no different than the surrounding culture. I think this model is starting to have some explanatory power!!! Keep up the good work.
Dudes what a show! Well done man bravo so informative cutting edge shit very kool 🤟
For whatever reason, all of this evidence for late redaction and Greek influence in the O.T.- is as emotionally disturbing to me as the initial deconstruction. Yet I sensed a more recient historical paradigm in stories like Cane and Able, but didn't know enough to find what culture influence was underlying it.
The more we help people understand that they can have purpose and community outside of religious belief, the easier it will be for them to open up to this information. 😌
Hello dear MythVision. Thanks for your videos and for trying to show us different views on myths in general. I haven't seen all your videos, cause it take me some bit of effort as I'm not an English native. So, considering how important I think are your videos, Is it posible that they can be tralslated and subtitled into Spanish language? I could share your videos to so many people that can not see them right now.
If that is not possible, thanks anyway and I hope you continue with this great proyect 😍.
I'm chilean, by the way, from a far far away country 😊.
Another fantastic and well thought out presentation. Once the connections are exposed between ancient literary sources, they can no longer be unseen.
good job derek, salient analysis of a fundamental issue.
I think I can help in this: I know both Plato and Moses. They partnered up pre-COVID, and opened up the kosher 🇮🇱 gyros 🇬🇷 🥙 joint down the street from my place. The Greek is definitely older (his real name is actually Aristokles, but after the arson incident he now goes by Plato). Plato is in his late sixties, while Moshe is barely thirty-five!
Hey right on!! Lol
Aristokles’s infamous arson incident was a little trick borrowed frmo Moshe (pronounced Mush) called ‘Jewish lightening’, in order to collect insurance.
@@moorbilt - Plato would insist on “Greek lighting.” ⚡️🙂
@@JonGalloway-pu3tk - 🙂
Yey you got great food I ate their last week keep up the great work!!!
There's absolutely no argument for Plato using any Bible because he lived hundreds of years before any Bible or any so-called gospels, and we know Plato actually existed unlike Moses
the Torah existed at time of plato...remember nothing Plato Socrates Thales etc wrote exist either...all 3 can be considered myth too
Plato without a doubt would have sourced Moses if he was indeed influenced by his work. This is what scholars do.
@FranG1214 Plato would have no reason to source a Middle Eastern book that wasn't written til the 5th century BCE and that he didn't have access to
@@HorusNoon33 I can most definitely believe that
@nowaout8014 wrong, we have lots of platos writings, but everything on Socrates is from Plato and a few others
Christians and Jew argued for a Mosaic origin for Greek thought in earlier times too when pagans pointed out that the reverse was likely.
Thanks for the content Derek! What would Rabbi Tovia Singer say about this would be interesting to hear😎
I'm confident he would absolutely disagree. He thinks Moses wrote the Torah from what I've gathered. I don't think Moses existed.
@@MythVisionPodcast ouch...
@@MythVisionPodcastPorphyry may have been onto something when he suggested that Ezra, not Moses, wrote down the Mosaic traditions. (see Deuteronomy 34:10, 2 Kings 22:8, 2 Chronicles 34:14)
@@GabrielEddyThis was a common idea. The line of reasoning was that the Babylonians destroyed every copy of Torah so when the Jews were allowed back to Judea Ezra and Nehemiah had to rewrite the entire thing. Clement of Alexandria goes over it as well.
I dont understand why he is still a yahweh believer....
Interesting. I think you have amassed enough material to make us think about this more deeply rather than dismiss out of hand. It is now an interesting area of inquiry.
My view is that the Torah is composed of older elements with redaction and compilation with some ancient material. However it is possible that if someone had knowledge of Plato that might influence their redaction.
It is still possible that Plato was aware of the Hebrew laws, unlikely he copied them. It is also interesting to explore that these writings are mutially related to some degree and worthy of investigation.
PS Damn! Now I'm going to have to read Plato and Herodotus as well as Philo and Joseph's.....
Yeah, the Jews of that era were fundamentalists - of course they would claim antiquity.
Taking the word, of fundamentalists, just because it was written 2000 years ago, is as strange as taking it serious today. The reason why the greek writings is so much more plausible and not being what amount to ancient tin foil hattery, *is the source referencing.*
Moses historicity is about as certain as Odin/Wodin/Wotan.
What great philosophical wisdom would the supposed witings of Moses offer the Greek thinkers? Obey YHWH or suffer?
Moses lived centuries before Plato
Thanks Derek for summarizing all of this. You’re putting the pieces together so I don’t have to.
Thanks my friend. I hope it peaks your curiosity to investigate further if you ever find the time.
@@MythVisionPodcast oh definitely, these videos are usually my starting points and how I find out about the scholars.
Also when you look at history, there is more bullet holes in Judaism.
Why would Jews return to live in Egypt when it is forbidden for them to return to live with their slave owners in Egyot?
When Cleopatra the Seventh, the wife of JUlius Ceasar, she was a pharaoh of Egypt when the Jews immigrated to Alexandria Egypt. She allowed them to immigrate and granted them the right of commerce and the right to practice their religion. --- this is history.
But there is nothing on Egypt's walls about Jews being slaves there, nor a famouse exodus there -- nothing .
Also, the anscestors of Cleopatra were the first to translate the Torah of Moses into Greek. So, she was aware of the 5 books of Moses since a relative of her translated it into Greek.
But had there been any records of Jews being enemies of Egypt, probably, Cleopatra would have genocide them since they were considered enemies of Egypt, or Her husband Julius Ceasar -- Rome would have genocide them. But because there is no historical records saying Jews were slaves in Egypt, Jews are enemies of Egypt and about a famouse Exodus, Cleopatra granted them residency in Egypt.
But it leaves the question, why would run-away Jews return to live with their slave masters? Is like USA, why would run-away-African-Amricans return to live in slave states? Logic, common sense, survival instant, dictates, you want to get away from there possible, never return.
This is an excellent talk.
I’m wondering if this copying happened shortly before the Hellenistic era, because after Alexander’s conquest Greek culture became dominant in the Middle East. Wouldn’t it have been too obvious that the Torah was forged and borrowing from the Greeks? Whereas earlier, when the area was ruled by Persians and Greece was a more exotic and unknown place, the Jewish commoners would be more ignorant that their own elites are borrowing ideas from the Greeks.
excellent derek!! best one yet!!
Aye man. You really do this. Good stuff
This is of my greatest interest in life. Thx so much.
Great show Derek. You worked hard. Thank you. Watching here in Australia.
Lots of good scholarship brought to light. My only issue was that at the beginning it was a bit scatter-shot. By the way, is Neal involve in writing the script? Just curious. Keep up the good work!
Thank you for making a video on this. I am currently going the Argonauts of the Desert as well. Thank you for turning me into this.
Very fun book! Thanks 😊
Derek, I'm convinced that the case you presented that Moses copied Plato is quite compelling.
Tip o' th' hat 🎩 to Dr. Bart Ehrman for "compelling".
I love how this discussion taps into one of the greatest taboos in a way that one can discover it without being told explicitly. The taboo that people were not living in isolated bubbles and that ideas , culture, beliefs changed and adapted over time and by culture. Usually there is the focus on making neighboring people and cultures "other" and certain people as "special". When you can see all the different cultures influence you can see people are more alike than different. Plus, you can see that ideas are things that change in time.
Knowing how much the Hebrew Bible borrowed from other mythologies and religions why shouldn’t that apply to borrowing from Plato also? Seems completely logical. Good job telling this in a clear, concise way.
Those myths aren't at all mythical. The book of Enoch predates Greek civilization and explains what the Greek myths are , the fallen angels and nephilum .
@@Heracles_FE The Epic of Gilgamesh predates the book of Enoch by about 1,000 years. The Hebrew Bible borrowed heavily from it, including the creation myth and the flood myth as well as other parts. This information is readily available online. It is much better to do your homework before you make claims that are incorrect. Christianity is based in large part on Mithraism, often called the seed of Christianity. The entire Bible is a mashup of other more ancient mythologies and belief systems. Nothing new.
@26beegee This is history , not myth . And the idea that Christianity is based in anything other than a garbled history of Yashua by the Roman's because they preferred to remain pagans is a philosophical choice by intellectual idiots . Enoch is the history of Gilgamesh's ancestors.
@@Heracles_FE I’m sorry you think the Bible is history. Both Christian and non-Christian Bible scholars don’t believe most of what is in the Bible is historically accurate and do not believe in a literal interpretation. Some actual places and historic figures are included but, that doesn’t make the book historically accurate. It is historic fiction, a genre of literature that has existed for millennia. Just because New York is a real piece doesn’t mean Spider-Man was real either. Only a small percentage of Christians (mostly American evangelicals) believe the Bible is literally and factually accurate and true. Look it up if you don’t believe me. Don’t mean to burst your bubble but, everyone should know the truth. There are dozens of Bible scholars with RUclips channels, podcasts, websites and other social media accounts where you can learn college level scholarship for free! I encourage you to investigate for yourself. Don’t just take the word of your pastor, friends or family who do not have a formal education about this topic. I made that mistake and was misinformed. They had good intentions but, were also misinformed.
@@Heracles_FE based off of myth and people of that time Jewish tradition the Leviathan was created on the fifth day, 2baruch 29:4 also Genesis 1: 20- 35 serpent monster Yahweh Satan 😆 Prince of power of the air Ephesians 2:2..
Isaiah 27:1 the twisting spirit serpent and also the Book of Job 41:1 through 2 the fleeing serpent
How is it possible they were having this debate only two hundred years after Plato? The Romans recognizes Judaism as an ancient religion, 200 years isnt ancient which leads me to believe the Torah is older than Plato. Would love to hear ideas
Weren’t some Judaic apologists even asserting that ancient Homer and/or Hesiod borrowed in part from Mosaic tradition? The nerve.
That's as bad as a Chinese article claiming English was born from Chinese characters. Complete historical revisionism
Thanks Derek! Love your work!
Great show 👍. Thanks. A former Catholic Priest Alan Watts claimed that they made it all up. And that we are and Everything is God, in his lecture - On Being God.
Alan Watts wasn't a former Catholic priest. I think he was an Episcopalian cleric at one point.
@@Eman_PuedamaThese people don’t care about facts lol they want to feed their bias that they are being lied to about jesus as if it’s something bad lmao
Very good content!
Thank you very much
I don't mean to discredit all the work these scholars have put into their research. But we can use the same arguments some use against the antiquity of the Bible text. The oldest fragmentary copies of Plato's works go back to 300 BC... so
Man I feel like I’m listening to a college professor in a lecture hall. You’re getting too far from what made your channel great. What I wouldn’t give to here you going back and forth with Dr. Bob.
The most likely scenario is that different ideas popped all over the place where they were discussed, mutated, and influenced each other. By the time they were written down anywhere, they probably existed for a long time.
It's like different jokes that exist everywhere but all have similar punchlines.
The problem is the timelines. Most scholars believe that Ezra wrote, edited, or compiled the first five cooks of Moses. The problem with this being a copy of Plato, is that Plato was born 13 years after Ezra had died. Those timelines could be off a few years, but not much. It is probable that there was a Greek influence, trade and cultural exchange in the Mediterranean was common. It is completely different to believe that Plato influenced a text, that even liberal scholars, believe was compiled before his birth. It is likely that both works were influenced by similar sources.
......and 100 years ago most scholars believed that Moses wrote the first 5 books.
Perhaps most scholars are wrong again about Ezra compiling the books of Moses.
Excellent video
Derick sounding EXTRA intellectual
The whole conversion is lead with a false premise, did the jews borrow from pagans and apply pagan beliefs retroactively moses' god.
The god of moses _WAS_ a pagan god. The ninth century inscription from the edomite region shows Yahweh of Samaria and his Asherah. Yahweh of Tenmah (Yemen) and his asherah. Moses did not discover Yahweh, he was an pagan Arabian god. In my opinion he is the combination of the judean Yahu and power aspects from Egypt. We can argue about whether Moses existed or not, i tend to think he did, but the wisdom volcano god who has a body which moses could see is a tell-tale sign of a pagan god.
William Propp in his exodus 1-18 makes it clear that jews viewed moses' god in two ways. A god whom is intriduced to moses by El or a god who communicates with moses using angels. These reflect two views they attempt to merge in the text. The old view in which Yahweh was subservient to the father god and the new view in which Yahweh replaces the father gods, and turns his children and angels alike into his servants. We have to assume the older view was the original view. This view is pre-platonic, like a millenium before. So thats not even a question on the table.
The question is did the Jewish writers of the 4th to 6th century alter their views to have a more platonic view of gods, or did this come from earlier zoroastrian influences or did the Jews come up with this on their own.
Again there is a heavy hand of the priestly source in Exodus, and its pretty clear this is late and likely tied to a change in the lineage of the high priest during the early/mid second temple period. So its possible that platonic ideas are being added. But lets roll the clock back to sennacharib and the mess his family created. While for a time it look as if the chaldeans and canaanite cities would put Assyria back in their places, in the face of Assyrias (head god Asshur) the coalition under El failed. Isaiah makes the point that the other gods could defend off the assyrians from Judea or the northern kingdom, then those gods were dead to him. This is the first indication why the Jews began the process toward monotheism. Prior to that point, as we use the word pagan, Yahweh is a pagan god. And to Ezekial, who can see gods dangly bits in the temple, hes seeing what we would call a pagan god. In the process of 150 years, Akkad and Sumer would dissappear and the mesopotamian gods would be corrupted by exterior influences until they vanished. In fact we can think of Yahweh as one of the earliest corruptions, a chimera between a mesoptamuan wisdom god and a Egyptian/arabian/ethopian power god.
And so when did Jews decide that, at least for them, only one god had any power. This is a difficult question, because the remnant of the olde religion still exists in modern judaism. Its almost if they are idolizing the other gods, but removed the names and convinced themsleves the other gods dont exist (e.g, Menorah). It not that they changed the belief so much as they reworded the meaning so that in scrubed itself of the complex relationships between gods.
When we ask the question, who influenced what first? we get into a semantic problem of meaning and key abstractions. And abstractions are difficult to patent. Lets say X invents idea 1 and Y idea 2. Both become popular. X borrows a little bit of 2 and Y borrows a little bit of 1 so that we have 1a and a 1b varient that looks alot like 2. And 2a and 2b varient, which looks alot like 1. Thats the problem in exodous; there are at least two varients 1a and 1b, both authoritative or popular enough that they need be included. The question is what precedences lead to 1a and what outside influences lead to 1b.
I would love to say, for certain Yahu was a mediterranean transit arabian Enki cult that imported and adapa mystical cult that trasformed itself into an omnigod cult, but I have to take the scholarly perspective that we just do don't know. The only thing we know is during the last years of sennacharib that the judeans began a process of trimming gods from their religion until they trimmed the father and mother gods. That is the jewish meaning of Yahweh, whatever meaning Yahweh had before that is purely acedemic and not of any religious value, those old gods are all dead.
A skeleton Torah was likely at play around Ezra’s time, which was roughly contemporary with Plato. The Torah and books of history appear to be heavily redacted through a Greek lense! An important point you left out is that the books of history and the prophets never indicate the people were actually following the deuteronomic law , they mention following the Torah of YHWH but specific observance is never reflected. In other words it appears they weren’t aware of the Torah in any meaningful way. Further, archeology is replete with evidence that Israel was no different than the surrounding culture. I think this model is starting to have some explanatory power!!! Keep up the good work.
BRAVO FOR YOUR WORK. I THINK YOU ARE SPOT ON. KEEP ON.
If there is no certainty of Moses’ existance, there should be less evidence for the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This really makes you think who controls the narrative
" This really makes you think who controls the narrative" - there's no mysterious conspiracy at work here. We know who "controls the narrative". Specifically, the religious leaders are the ones who such a thing. That is what _orthodoxy_ and _orthopraxy_ are all about.
It was never a serious question to anyone with even cursory knowledge of the Bible knows of its roots in Greco-Roman Hellenist thought (as well as Jewish and Zoroastrianism tradition). This is the first I've ever heard of the reverse claim, and it is obsard to think Plato took from the fictional character of Moses.
😂😂😂
Seeing how the Tora with the writing attested to Moses were written down 300 years before Plato, I’d like to see the Time Machine.
The flaw here is 1) assuming Moses was real. For many of us, this is indulging a fantasy for the sake of argument rather than a serious supposition. Moses is a fiction. 2) By trying to prove the Greek sources as older - which I'm sure they are - you've played into the same argument the Jews were making in that older means true. Older means validity. With that in mind, why are we trying to prove the Greek sources are first? Everyone already knows that the books attributed to the fictional Moses were based on myths brought back by the Israelites returning from the Neo-Babylonian exile at the end of the 6th century BCE, then edited and revised for roughly another hundred years into their final form.
It's still interesting to explore the origins of these stories, just like it is with all mythology around the world. Just finding stories entertaining doesn't mean we necessarily view all or any part of them as being actually real.
@@shanegooding4839 That's all completely beside the point. You can speak about the origins of various philosophies and stories without having to first imagine a fictional character is real nor make an issue about which came first, as if that matters.
Which texts came first, is important for having an accurate view of history. That doesn't mean that the religious/philosophical texts are true or valid.
@@lovestarlightgiver2402 I'd agree except that you and I must have been watching different videos. The entire premise - let me say it again - the entire premise was whether or not the Pentateuch had been influenced by Plato or vis-versa. It was also stated repeatedly that in order to defend the validity of the scriptures many ancient scholars insisted that Greek philosophy had no influence. So, prima facia, the debate wasn't just which one came first, but also about the divine source of scripture and thus it's validity. Do you not get that?
Yes, it's nice to know the order of appearance of ideas in history, but that wasn't the premise nor point of this video.
@@juliancate7089 Yes, "ancient authors" cared about which came first to try to defend the validity of divine origin. Regardless of which were written first, there is no evidence of either being of "divine origin", rather than the writings of men which eventually became saved and popular.
According to the archeological research of Simcha Jacobici, Moses is actually dated to 1500 BCE. Please check out his documentary, "Decoding the Exodus."
Thanks for an excellent dive into the sources of biblical myths, Derek. It's all Greek to me. :-)
I particulaly like that bit in Moses auto biography Deutoronomy 34: 5.
You cracked the code: משה is Moshe/Moses in Hebrew and it Equals 345 in Gematria. Game Over. Pythagorean Mathematics wins
@@melchizedek1380 elaborate
@@blackswanrising2024 d'love to: however, when ever I divulge too much know-the-ledger, youtube hides my comments. Peace
It seems obvious when you think about the Hellenic period in the Near East that Greek influence had to be significant. There is even some evidence to suggest that circumcision was more widespread there amongst non-Jews before the coming of the Greeks who considered it a barbaric custom.
This is all very convincing, there's no doubt about it. The thing I can't square is when scholars' talk about Biblical Hebrew etc and being able to see the difference in the ages of the writings... But, then I was wondering, beside the Hebrew Bible, how much extra-biblical writing even exists? I'd love to hear a discussion on this topic as all of this is fascinating...but super confusing. ✌️😂
Moses lived about 1,000 years BEFORE Plato was born! How could Biblical authors be influenced by a culture that DID NOT exist at the time? The Hellenistic Period began during the Inter-Testamental Period mean 2 centuries AFTER the last book of the Old Testament was written.
@@thetruthchannel349 good point, check out dr. Jacob Wright’s latest book Why the Bible was written. He shows compelling evidence that the early writings actually came after the destruction of the N & S Israel kingdoms.
Evidently, Moses could not have borrowed from Plato, since he was a millennium earlier than the Greek. However, the authors of the Bible... that is a different story...
Moses never existed. As Exodus never happened.
43:52 into the video : AI Paul walker 😂😂
this reading from a script makes for lousy communication. unnatural cadence. too fast.
Dude. Even if Ezra were the actual author of the Books of Moses, there’s still no way he could’ve borrowed from Plato. The beginning of the second temple began 110 years before the birth of Plato.
Better titled “Justin Martyr vindicated: Plato definitely ripped off some Moses!” While the theory that Ezra was the first to write down the “oral Torah” attributed to Moses is a fairly well-known and evidenced alternative theory to traditional Moses attribution, Ezra’s active years still predates both Plato and Socrates.
Very compelling. I tend to agree
1hr in this also ties in with the original Grimms fairytale about Sleeping Beauty :O
An excellent presentation.
Ι ΤΗΙΝΚ PLATONAS LIVED IN THE 5TH CENTURY BC. HE WAS A STUDENT IF SOCRATES. SOCRATES FOUGHT THE PERSIANS AROUND 500 BC IN MARATHON.
HE ACTUALLY WROTE DOWN EVERYTHING SOCRATES TEACHED.
Very interesting 👍
Is there any literary source on Pythagoreans and Platonists arguing about which philosophy is older ?
THE GREEK PHILOSOPHERS HAD A DIFERENT FROM EGYPT , BACK GROUND OF AT LEAST 1000 YEARS BEFORE 650 BC THAT SOLON LIVED IN ATHENS , AND HE VISITED EGYPT.
AFTER 330 BC EGYPT WAS RULED FROM MAKEDON GREEKS UP TO THE ROMANS.
You need a Copyrighter who isn’t academically inclined and who also knows nothing about the topic. Trim. It. Down. Stop trying to co-mingle elaborate metaphors within highly technical phrases
One little problem with your theory the Bible was written about the 10 century BCE and completed around 100 BCE and Aristophanes wasn't born for another 200years
Hi, Mythvision check out Androcles in the lion's den - Aesops Fables. Aesop was born in 620 BCE the setting of Daniel in the lion's den in the reign of King Darius - who ruled 539 - 525 BCE up to nearly 100 years later
Wow. I think George Washington quoted Ronald Reagan. Now I don't believe Washington ever existed.😂
They both are totalitarian. I would stick with Plato, visibly he would have a better claim to divine inspiration than the intelectually shallow Moses
Back then when it was written, "HEBREWS" today's culture "My Hebrews and Shebrews!" Isn't there a story of a guy that pissed off god or gods named Gilgamesh that the Jews and Gentians then changed to Noah? I can't remember the Egyptian Heros story(ies) of someone being killed and then brought back, along with the Nile and basket story?
Almost. Gilgamesh met another guy called Ziusudra who was later changed to Noah. Horus was inspiration for Moses, but they didn't need Osiris for Jesus. They had already Romans at home, who could tell them of the resurrections of Caesar, Hercules and Romulus.
I thought the flood survivor in Gilgamesh was Utnapishtim
@@RedNeckRed647 Yes, that's the same guy who was also called Ziusudra in the sumerian Kings List and in the Atra- Hasis.
There were Jews living in Athens at the time of Plato. He would have heard them from time to time about the Torah (old testament) and their history, but nothing new testament yet.
All 3 of these nations ruled and occupied the Levant.
1. Ashur - Assyrian creator (7th century BCE) Clay tablets in Turkish museum.
2. Marduk - Babylonian creator - (586 - 538 BCE) Clay tablets in Turkish museum. The Enuma Elish also refers to Izdubar the literal translation of Gilgamesh (the great deluge)
3. Ahura Mazda - Persian creator (538 - 332 BCE) one of the oldest known religions (Zoroastrianism). Ahura Mazda and the god of the bible are virtually interchangeable.
The Persian Period, also referred to as the Second Temple Period is when the Torah (Hebrew Law, first 5 books of the bible) is thought to have been compiled and edited (around 450 BCE). it is it believed that Hebrew Law came into practice about 444 BCE.
The Jews of today copied platon and pitagoras
I'm not going to watch this. Your clickbait title deserves no more. There's no controversy other than what you create.
Plato studied in Egypt and Moses was from Egypt and well educated, that’s the connection.
Clearly the New testament borrowed Greek and Roman ideology. No one will debate that, but the old testament is trickier. You would have to prove that the Torah was written during or after Babylonian captivity, but the books of the prophets were the books of that time, not likely the Torah. Imagine the Jews having so much traditions unique to them, not having their own religious text by the time they were taken captive by Babylonians/Assyrians. It makes little sense that the Jews had started writing down their history so late. Now the prophetic books, like Isaiah through Malachi, may have influence from Greek philosophy, but the Greeks were not a world power at the time. Their philosophy wouldn't be as desired to be known as much as the Persian philosophy at the time, which some Greek philosophers definitely learned under the Persian Magi. The books of the bible, which stories take place in a Greco dominated world, make up the apocrypha, which I don't think y'all are aiming to debate any of the books that are considered 'extra biblical' or 'non canon', despite the apocrypha being quite historical.
In terms of Plato not giving credit to the Jews. The Jews were most likely a sovereignty of Persia at the time. The Apocryphal books, especially the Maccabees, mention that the Jews had gone from being allies to the Egyptians, then flipping sides and teaming up with Persians, than back to the Egyptians, then to the Greeks, etc, but the Maccabees is 167 bc. At the time when Greece was a world power, the Jews were getting taken over left and right. The thing is, the Apocryphal time was after Plato, so at that point it makes sense to say that the Jews would have borrowed from the Greeks. Matter fact, some theologians argue that the Jews changed their calendar to fit the Greco dominated world. The Bible is full of verses that talk about the Jews trying to be like other nations, but those nations were typically connected to or were the world power at the time. So for the Apocryphal and NT books, you will probably find all the evidence you need to say the Jews took from the Greeks, but as for the Torah, good luck proving that.
Why can't we just take the Greek philosopher's own writings as proof. If they themselves say they learned from other nations, why is it hard to accept it? If there are similarities in Jewish and Greek philosophy, it's probably because both of them took from Egyptian and Mesopotamian philosophy, not each other until much later.
"No one will debate that," - hah! The typical fundamentalist will go frothing if you suggest the NT borrows Greco-Roman ideology.
@@TheDanEdwards
EDIT: I meant no one in this Myth Vision community will probably debate that lol, but yeah I should have been more clear. Most people commenting on these videos are not fundamentalist, and many are probably atheist I take it.
I am obviously not a fundamentalist, but there are a minority of Christians that believe that Christianity was corrupted by the Romans during the council of Nicaea. How so many Christians could think that its ok that a council of Romans, and many other nations took part in deciding how to define God, and if Jesus was a prophet or God himself, decided which books didn't fit their narrative, and even admitted political incentives for unification of religion and state, think that the NT isn't strongly influenced by Greco-Roman philosophy, is blind as a bat. Most Christians are told that the Bible is a Christian book, and God has protected it from corruption. The Bible didn't exist before the Council of Nicaea, just the Torah, Books of the prophets, the Wisdom teachings of Solomon, the Apocrypha, and the Gospels; just a bunch of books that were separated, no cannon. The Bible is a Roman creation. Many of the books may be Jewish books, but the Romans decided what books fit their agenda, not the Jews. Holy Bible is Helios Biblos, or Sun Book. Jesus isn't the name of the Jewish savior, Jesus or Iyesus means hail Zues. Yahuwah or Yahushua is the rightful name of the son of God.
We can't discount the possibility of later editorialising of earlier Jewish writings that may have already shared these parallels you mention either. For example Hurrian mythology bears a number of clear similarities to that of the Greeks. We know that the Hurrians are most likely to have been the people who contributed DNA from the Caucasus to ancient Palestine, so those beliefs must have been present there to some extent as well. Later when early Jews noticed similarities that they shared with the Greeks because of these ancestors they could very well have incorporated actual Greek ideas that they liked into their existing writings.
@@shanegooding4839 The only thing is that Jews didn't edit the current Bible we are talking about---Rome did, then England later on, then different regions made little re-translations and edits to their version. It's why their are over 50-100 different Bibles. Jews have little to do with NT edits, but if you are talking strictly OT edits, then yeah they could have and probably did do that during the Maccabean era, but what if some of their edits were edited by the Council of Nicaea later on? I think some of the Apocryphal books hint or mention that a new priesthood was implemented by the Greeks that replaced the true Levites. The priests that were there at the time of Jesus were not part of the Levite bloodline. So with a new priest group, they most likely did edit some of the older books, and applied Greek ideology. This is why the Dead Sea Scrolls are so important, because they would have represented the uncorrupted Jewish versions. But good point you made.
@@Eastra3 study the Leviathan/ Levites the serpent worshipers
Fascinating, uncovering what may be the source of Moses material inspired by the Hellenistic world. The true source may be even older. I just read an article in IFLScience about the discovery of the Pythagorean Theorem Found On a Babylonian Clay Tablet 1,000 Years Older Than Pythagoras.
Moses lived 1,000 years earlier than Plato. So, no, the Alexandrian school that hodge-podged Judaism, Christianity and Islam borrowed from Plato ... who borrowed from earlier thinkers such as the Egyptians and Sumerians.
Man this dude is fucking good!!! I Subbed
very interesting the history of ideas we all borrow ideas to make others historically
Definitely an interesting idea. I was already familiar with the topic of Plato copying the Old Testament (Where I agree with you that his openness of his sources makes the lack of Hebrews pretty compelling), but I hadn't seen the reverse. Even if they didn't directly copy the Greeks, they certainly could have been writing down their own stories into the OT for the first time and casting it in a Greek mold..
Europe didn't have a writing system. Read man.
@@greenpulseeducation5002 you again?Read up on the Minoan civilization
Plato never copied the jews
@@Texasmade74 Are you so unable to read or think that you thought your comment added anything?
YOU SIR…ARE TOP TIER !!!! 💯👍🏻
I understood that the name moses is actually an Egyptian name, and there was a person called Amoses who resided in Egypt?
This was fun.
It is really shocking considering they lived 1000 years apart.
My questions is. Was it all just mvde up during the Babylonian captivity???? There's that passage in 2nd Kings about "hey look what we found cleaning up this closet in the temple! Its the law given to us via Moses from Lord YHWH!" Was that passage written as a cover story? Edit: and why? So that they could be better unified in some kind of national identity? Did the Babylonidns or Persians come up with it? Pisses me off and excites me at the same time!
This aligns with what J. Wright shows in his book -Why the Bible was written. Suggesting that this mythical pre history was written after the N&S Israel kingdoms fell.
What are your thoughts on Pythagoras being during the time of King Cyrus and him living in Persia during the Greco-Persian Wars.
Btw, Pytagoras considered Jews as Syriac people who practiced Circumcision. I happen to believe that Pythagoras was a prophet of God but his teachings were overshadowed by Athenian ways.
Derek, to me we spend way too much time studying ourselves and the past. In my view I need to turn from the dust of history and test my personal belief that Jesus is the Spirit of God in the flesh. In me.
And what is the source of a spirit in you ,where did it come from before clothing itself in what you term "YOU", and where will it go after the cloth "YOU" is no longer usable to achieve what the spirit requires here?
From the fact that Moses existed centuries earlier, I'd say it was the otherway around, and Justin Martyr from the second century would agree.
No evidence for Moses existed
Thanks Derek.
I 100% agree. The Greeks were further along than the Jews. Why would the Greeks want inspiration from the Jews?
Brilliant podcast as usual
Sometimes the most obvious evidence is overlooked for being too obvious. The overwhelming majority of speakers or characters in Socratic dialogues are attested to historically; Timaeus is not one of those
That Plato names Socrates foil as a near homonym to the creators foil, Tiamat, is perhaps the most striking evidence that the biblical stories came first
You need someone to just view it and double check. Text graphics were a mess. Good content. A bit too flowery for my taste. I would save the flowery stuff for moments when it's appropriate. Sparingly.
Skip to 8:00
This is brilliant 😁 But I fear the people who think Atlantis was real aren’t going to like it 😉
Could the two schools of thought arrive at their ideas independently. Like pyramids and creation strories.