What I found pretty cool in this interview was that after nearly 50 yrs. of studying this, Dr. Pagels was excited and animated when discussing things...
@@michaelfetter5413 What do you mean with "historicity"? They are historical documents, that show Christianism was not a monolithic faith in the first two centuries after Christ. Do you think Matthew 27:52, with the dead coming out from their graves just after the crucifixion and visiting Jerusalem, is more "historic" than Gospel of Thomas?
@@karekarenohay4432 Number and consistency of manuscripts also factoring in time from the events. The gnostic "gospels" are literally fanfic of cultists from hundreds of years later than the canon with a tiny number of manuscripts.
Glad to see you get actual Gnostics on here. This is a reminder to all: The Early Gnostics did not call themselves 'Gnostics' they considered themselves Christians and simply disagreed with the orthodoxy. According to the Apocrypha of John, the main Tragedy in the Gnostic Creation myth was Sophia (a child of the Original God) birthing the Demiurge (aka Yaldabaoth) without the consent of the original God. This was the tragedy instead of eating from the apple. I reccomend ESOTERICA as an introduction to the whole concepts its pretty interesting. 😊
I recommended the video on my playlist “wake up this world is an illusion” titled Dualism: the Illuminati Religion, I pray you wake up from the lowercase god if this world who blinds those who believe not
@@rimbusjift7575 how do you know/judge what's relevant or not, especially considering you can't possibly know what will or won't be relevant in your future with any real certainty at all? I'm 100% sure you don't have a memory full of only "relevant" or utilitarian memories lol. Your comment is basically a roundabout way to do whataboutism and express that you don't care about this lol. It's very transparent, brother 😅 Let people enjoy the things they wanna enjoy instead of moralising and judging to make yourself feel special and smart 🤷♀️ The things you care about and think are important are just as accurate/inaccurate, meaningful/meaningless, and relevant/irrelevant as anyone else. You'd have to think pretty highly of yourself or lowly of others to believe otherwise and you should aim to avoid that. Maybe you really are extra special and know more "relevant" stuff than everyone else, but even that wouldn't make it make sense to judge what others want to use their minds for... People are allowed to enjoy things you don't care about and you don't have to let everyone know how you feel about it 🤷♀️
I so admire Elaine Pagels. A renowened scholar, translator and author, she is willing to sit down with Alex for hours and explore, revisit, explain, and converse. She is centered in her experience and scholarship (and spirituality) yet also has such an open, friendly receptivity. What a great dialogue as was the prior one with the great Justin Sledge. Thank you!
Your comment proves the point , that's why such perversions of : APOCRYPHA, SEPTUAGINT, Book of Enoch , Westcott and Hort RV and today Nestles text . All came out of Alexandria , Egypt. The Muslims burned most of this trash , but evidently Satan found a way to hide some of it . This Harvard graduate , is typical of what comes out of that school .
@@michaelmcnamara8047 if people that are truly saved and remember when and where they were " Born Again " would not give any attention to these GNOSTIC so-called books / gospels. They have their roots in Alexandria, Egypt, and the perverted Manuscripts that are used for all these new translations .
I am a Muslim.... And I really really like to listening to Alex's podcasts and interviews. High intellectual with a pleasant voice and gentle but crticial approach.
Oh, you are so right! She found the truth and the passion. I am 80 and our biggest challenge today is that the youth do not believe we have learned anything of value. Jesus honored the elders, but also showed they had to learn his secret teachings. People have many different names for these mysteries now on RUclips channels, but they all arise from these "secret teachings." When we learn them we are filled with love and light and we can make it through the eye of the needle. You can cling to nothing to make it through. Thank you for honoring this woman's wisdom.
She is a Chosen One like myself like Hermes trismegistus. We live by laws of the universe not the laws written by man Beast!! We're not here to sell you anything we're just here to Shine the Light
You are selling your self I see it somewhat as deviant as you speak of divine power you should know has got nothing to do with religions therefore I call you out demons
I wonder how these older people feel about being approached by Alex who is so much younger to talk about their work. They must be so so happy to share their thoughts and feelings in a way they wouldn’t usually.
I met Elaine Pagel in 1995 , she is wonderful. I use to mistake her for two other women in the community college who looked so much like her but their intellect wasn’t even close to our good lady Mrs. Elain PAGEL . .. . . What a Real Treat to listen to her here today . She captivated me back in the 1990’s and now here. Thank you 🙏 for this video .
I attended a prlvate Jesuit college. During a class on New Testament theology the class started debating Genesis with some blaming Eve for our world while others refused to do so. The priest ended the debate by writing The Gnostics on the chalk board and advising us to learn about them. The Jesuits were later decribed to me as the one's following the dark or black pope. That priest later left the Jesuit order in order to get married. It is likely he discovered the Gospel Of Phillip which led him down a different path. He passed away as a spiritual man which opened up to us this different path. Yes back in the 1970s. Later in life I met a pastor from a Disciples Of Christ who simply asked me if I accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior which I replied yes. That pastor said congratulations you are ahead of the 90 percent of people here. Then he finally went on to say thank you we are here for you only if you need us. Spirituality and the gospel of thomas tells me and many others that The Kingdom is inside and outside of each of us. The fact that we have this 80 year old lady talking about this subject is truly a blessing.
Hmmm. I have a different question, it seems reaching a spiritual level will allow you to teach new things revealed just to you, if this would've been allowed, who would be the judge of saying you can teach your revelations?. It seems a recipe for disaster, just like social media nowadays where anyone without being knowledgeable can say what they please, and have a following. Im not willing to take that gamble with religion because of its fanatic nature. Perhaps was best for the church to do gatekeeping. Idk.
@@sdust251977you do know if you can trust yourself. I learned the concept of self guidance through Abraham Hicks explanation of the Law of Attraction of our universe.
Mr. O'Connor and Mrs. Dr. Pagels, job well done. Enjoyed your conversation on many levels. It was intellectual, spiritually and emotionally fulfilling.
Miracles still abound. This show popped up on my screen and the timing of this information coming to me is almost beyond belief. Not enough space to explain. Elaine Pagels is the most credible and brilliant scholar on the gnostic documents. Thank you for your great presentation!
Dr Pagel is genuine and careful when she speaks, but, she does reveal truth very easily. Wonderful teaching video, thank you. The Catholic church is full of puzzles, I had to attend a Catholic school and church until 3rd grade.
Having earned my degree in Religious Studies from UNC under Bart Ehrman, among others, it's very odd to hear a scholar dodge questions and say, "I'd prefer not to comment on that," and, "I dont like that [source] very much" every time anything contrary to her poisition is raised. Great interview Alex.
I found that odd, too. She admits to "playing favorites." It's as if she's formed up her own orthodoxy for early Christianity, based on both the Gnostic Gospels and the New Testament. There are places in this video where she doesn't appear to be speaking as a scholar but as a believer, and I wonder whether for her there's any daylight between the two. Strange to see in a foundational interview meant to give us an "overview."
She is against the sensationalisation of the Gnostic gospels. Her position is explicitly against some sources, and has to entail some ignoring of the most obviously wacky of the Dead Sea scrolls.
@@newtonswig Wanting to avoid sensationalizing them is one thing. Denying they contain certain ideas and then hand-waving away evidence to the contrary is something else. Seems like anything she doesn't like isn't "real" gnosticism. It has kind of a "that's not real socialism" feel to it.
I found this discussion extremely fascinating; it resonated with some of my own thoughts about religions and Bible texts. I have listened to it ten times, and each time I go back, I discover another gem. One takeaway: I feel the first trinity is a mother, father, and son, not a father, son, and a spirit.
Read the two chapters they quote from the actual Bible and see how honest they are with the context of the verses they quote. Straight from the father (or mother, who cares? Point is, it’s a spirit) of lies.
I find her contributions so enriching for my Christian faith! And it makes so much sense, that the male disciples thought, that there should not be any female disciples, and that the Roman Catholic Church suppressed the knowledge of female disciples.
Im hybrid mindset. when you say: Pray like a LOVER NOT LIKE A BEGGARS. The meaning is When you recognize that the Holy Spirit dwells within you, your approach to prayer transforms completely. Instead of viewing prayer as an act of begging for something external, you embrace it as a powerful expression of gratitude and love. This shift allows you to pray with confidence, tapping into the infinite strength and wisdom residing inside you. When you pray like a lover, acknowledging the divine connection within, you cultivate a more profound and personal relationship with the divine. This heartfelt communication redefines worship, turning it into a joyful celebration of what is already present in your life, rather than a desperate plea for change. By aligning your prayers with gratitude and love, you unlock a deeper understanding of your spiritual journey, inspiring others to do the same.
Just because gnostics don't exist anymore doesn't mean they're the real ones. It could be gnosticism was an innovation in the first place but died down in history but archaeologists found their texts in the 20th century
Absolutely enjoyed that conversation. Mark 4:11 is the underlying proof of the conundrum that we battle. I am honored to find a woman so dedicated to that wisdom. What a marvelous life. We are all one in the light.
"Faith only begins when the proposition to which you assent is one that is doubted, or might quite conceivably be doubted, by people of equal intelligence with yourself." -Fr. Ronald Knox from his book, In Soft Garments: Classic Catholic Apologetics
I struggle with the lack of time spent on why the original church fathers felt the way they did about these texts. She makes it all feel very arbitrary. It seems apt to subject these texts to some textual criticism and dig in to why they were discarded.
There were councils held to bring the people of faith together to decide on what was the truth. The most split opinions were on more vague theological ideas (e.g. is God three persons or three natures - one or three, etc.). Damn-near nobody believed the Gnostic beliefs. Same thing with these "banned" gospels. They weren't banned. They were essentially fan fiction. People always point to the most sane things from the heretical texts while ignoring the completely insane parts that obviously invalidate them. A RUclipsr named Wendigoon did a video on them that was really good and entertaining.
The process of formulating the New Testament into one cohesive canon took over 200 years. There were some prerequisites for a book to be considered for the canon: 1. Apostolic Origin: It needed to be written by an apostle or someone close to an apostle. 2. Orthodox Doctrine: It had to align with the accepted teachings of the Christian faith. 3. Liturgical Use: It had to be widely used in early Christian worship and teaching. 4. Catholicity (Universality): It was accepted by the majority of Christian communities across different regions. This was a long and grueling process of organization and communication in times of harsh persecution and limited resources, especially for the people who were Christians (typically peasants and nomads). 5. Inspiration by the Holy Spirit: It was believed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Gnostic Gospels were excluded because they didn’t meet any of the criteria except for the last one, which is more arguable. They included theological contradictions to the other New Testament scriptures. They were written decades to centuries after any apostles or eyewitnesses of Jesus lived, so we know the Gospels were not written by who they claim to be written by (Thomas, Mary Magdalene, Peter, Philip, Judas, etc.). Also, “Gnostic Christianity” was not a particular sect of Christianity; it was a label given to churches and groups that fell outside of orthodox doctrines and beliefs, so any group that was heretical would be lumped into the Gnostic Christian category. These Gospels aren’t special just because they exist; just like the countless books excluded from the canon, they simply did not meet the necessary criteria to be considered trustworthy, widely accepted, theologically consistent, and effectually canonical.
Yeah, it gives me highschool history class vibes. ''Alas! the dogmatic and weak minded preists were upset by such claims! so they did what they knew best, ban the books, burn the heretics...''
Imagine a teacher saying: "I'm going to explicitly try and teach a group of students so they don't understand, then select a smaller group to teach them properly" That is different from: "They aren't at the level that would be able to understand, so I have to dumb it down for them to get the basics. You're more advanced so I can go more in depth"
I get what you are saying and mostly agree, but there is a kernel of truth to the original claim. You cannot teach calculus to the average first grader. You have to start at the basics. And yes you as a teachers have to adapt your teachings to the level of the students even if they are a group. Again I am not saying you are wrong, but there is a kernel of truth in what she is saying. I think she is using this fact as a defense.
@@RanEncounter Again, that's different. The claim is that Jesus spoke in ways meant to be misunderstood. Sure, I wouldn't teach calculus to a first grader, I would teach them first grade math that they would understand. The equivalent would be for me to give text math problems to a group of first graders, and then I took aside a handful of them so I could explain how to solve the problems. The "secret" teachings, in the gospels at least, were: Here's a parable that will leave most of the listeners confused (but don't worry, that's on purpose) , but I'll explain it to a few of you.
@@RanEncounter Or listen to the kid for once when they can say they can see and understand something and not swat away their funny way of describing the answer 4 units ahead of the lesson
@@Fernando-ek8jp Look you seem to have taken this totally different than what I actually wrote. You seem to be too eager to have a debate. "Again, that's different." Yes that is why I said that there was a kernel of truth in what she said. "The claim is that Jesus spoke in ways meant to be misunderstood." Yes this is the ideas of a person who has for years had to bend their mind to religion to make it make sense. I was just pointing out where this kind of thinking originates and how she does not see it as a problem any more. "The equivalent would be for me to give text math problems to a group of first graders, and then I took aside a handful of them so I could explain how to solve the problems." I literally agreed! Is really a kernel of truth so hard to understand? Do you not understand what I said at all? "The "secret" teachings, in the gospels at least, were: Here's a parable that will leave most of the listeners confused (but don't worry, that's on purpose) , but I'll explain it to a few of you." Yes. I literally agree. Sigh. Do you not understand that how she has in her mind changed the kernel of truth as I said it to what is in the gospels because of her beliefs?
I was born into a very Catholic family but now 55 and not practicing Catholic. My youngest child went to Baptist and learned the Bible so much more than I. Now as she got older she pulled away from religion but does believe in god/Jesus. She says it to hard to follow everything the church taught because to many missing books. We all have faith in our lord Jesus Christ but fear being steered in a word direction. I personally feel like Baptist teach Bible & Catholic worships. So we call ourselves bathlic combining two faiths. I lost my my oldest daughter and feel her at times but not all the time so I do know we are surrounded with love of god & all those that past that love us. Includes guardian angels if they exist. Lovely lady & so happy we have people with huge faith but looks deeper for more teaching. Must thank her for passing on her knowledge. I’m just gonna have to rewatch many times to comprehend cuz I’m kinda confused
@@butter_nut1817 he'd most probably be murdered by Evangelicals in the US as soon as he said that they are the new pharisees, but we know no one's coming back from the dead after 2000 years of a failed promise.
Great interview, very interesting topic and speaker. (P.S: commentors be grateful for the podcast guest) I notice some people complain about her not wishing to speak on certain topics. Bear in mind, her enthusiasm for the topic might not stem from the same place as yours, and that different angle for her curiosity is likely to be why she's dived so deep into these texts.
Thank you for this interview. I've been fascinated with Gnosticism for a couple years now. I was raised Catholic and when I got older, I began to have many questions. The teaching of Christianity never really added up but when I began to study Gnosticism it began to all come together. These teachings tied up a lot of loose ends. It makes it all more believable. Although I don't know if I'll ever have complete faith.
look up the Essenes. A Jewish sect Jesus was part of. They regarded woman equal to man and had rituals like baptism. Aaron Abke talks about them quite often.
I was raised Catholic also and also had MANY questions as I got older that nobody could answer. I also found out early to even ask is a sin. So now older and wiser I had to leave the Catholic Church especially with this latest Pope as my soul just felt unease and I needed to step back and search. Ironically this video popped up and I am SO intrigued. Then, I read your comment and felt relief that I am not alone, so thank you!
What would you feel if Alex asked a question related to paprika specifically in this interview? Is there any possible way this could be related to paprika in any way without changing the subject?
This is a very welcome conversation in my search for greater understanding. It’s not unexpected that your video suddenly appeared in my search for gnostic information. Thank you so much. 🖖👀
Wonderful to see Elaine on the podcast. I’ve been following her work for more than 20 years. Crucial insights on my spiritual journey. Thanks and cheers to you both.
"The gnostic gospels don't contradict the canonical gospels"--well that's a lie! She's still trying to convince herself the gnostic gospels are authentic secret teachings of Jesus!!!!!😅😅😅😅😅😅😅
Are you aware of her ever acknowledging/addressing "A Course in Miracles"? I recently discovered it and am thunderstruck by its quality. I noticed similarities to some gnostic teaching, and some of those who study it have referred to it as "Neo-gnostic." Edit: I've reviewed some part of work, on youtube and elsewhere, but I've yet to see any reference to ACIM.
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@@thomasthomasphilp4393 I was asking because I believe I have heard of some oral traditions in India that say Christ came and ministered there long after his supposed crucifixion.
When you read or listen to the many testimonials of the people who have experienced NDE's this all makes sense. Our orgin is the light, we are all one. Everything is from and part of the light! I thurally enjoyed this video.
Not all NDE’s are the same, and nobody has ever come back from dying. I’ve always found NDE’s being very weak evidence for an afterlife, because NDE’s can also be explained by the fact we are all human. Perhaps when you get close to death your body produces images of white light as your body and brain struggle to survive. I’m not saying I know this is the case but I’m saying that seeing light at the end of life or close to it, does not mean you’re seeing a religious afterlife. It could just mean that, this is the visual experience in your head moments before death. If you want to believe that they are seeing an afterlife that’s fine, but it’s not reasonable evidence that would have to be entirely faith based
I always understood the hidden meaning of parables as an idiot or insincere filter. “Who who seeks finds, he who knocks the door opens” Alongside of ... “We have left all to follow You...” Alongside of “It is given to you to know the secret of the kingdom ... but to them I speak in parables.” So the disciples had access to the solutions to the enigmatic parables because they had proven they were sincere and willing to follow... The parables went out to provoke the seekers to seek. But the ones who just wanted to see a rock star ... they got what they wanted.
Spot on. Many maliciously ascribe the idea of secret teachings to some arbitrary exclusive club mentality. If you're open to it's ideas, it's open to you. For everyone else, what was left was Marx's "opiate of the masses".
You're very astute. Most people idolized Jesus instead of following him. Like you said, they wanted a rockstar. They put him on a pedestal and saw him as better than everyone else when his message was: we are all one.
These books should be taken as seriously as the canonical books. Christians are losing members more and more and the teachings on these books can bring people back. That the kingdom of heaven is within us, that we can all reach Christ consciousness is revolutionary and it resonates with so many people
Not as many people as you think, and that number is dwindling, which is a great sign that more and more are waking up to the objective reality without God or Jesus. Amen to that.
@@tron.44 we have to accept reality if we are to fix the problem. Numbers are decreasing and this other aspect of Christianity resonates with so many people.
@@DaveGfrom3it’s not about numbers. It’s about the True Word being spread. As long as all had heard the truth. You dare taint the Gospel for mere perception of men. You can’t have read the word and really believe in some secret teaching. Men manipulate the word to draw us close to the evil one. Don’t slip
@@Ashamanu7860 the powers that be have exploited the gospels to make you sheep and even get violent toward anyone that disagrees. That’s not Jesus’ way. And the Gnostic gospels contain teachings from Jesus. Look at the state of the world with Christianity as it’s been. Those books were kept out of the canonical Bible because they thought about the divine powers we all have in our consciousness. God said His name is I am. Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within. Be still and know I am the lord. That we can do better than Jesus. I’d rather know all of Jesus’ teachings, not just the ones the pedophilic Catholic Church chooses
Just a brief on “the undivided”, when you still your mind completely (be still and know that I am god) this stillness brings about a transcendent state called samadhi in Sanskrit. While in this state of samadhi, you literally see everything as one, you literally do not see separation, further still, samadhi has layers, if you pass the final layer your body consciousness disappears, you are now beyond space and time, seeing will still happen but from a different level than the eyes, you don’t experience through the body…. Therefore that “undivided” is the state of samadhi…. So be still
There are many other experts. Pagels was at one short period a fundamentalist who did not like many literalist doctrines, especially the „going to hell“ ideas which are not even Biblical. But texts like the Gospel of Thomas confirmed her spiritual sense of Christianity and a path to practice Christianity in a non-literal way. So there is a little bias but still a great scholar and I appreciate both her spiritual sense and her scholarship. A lot of what she writes is basically an apologetic defense for non-literalist interpretations and that there is very old tradition of it. There are other scholars such as mythicists who focus on other Gnostic texts to continue their critique of Christianity, who do go into the texts and interpretations that Pagels finds shallow. No doubt IMO the Marcionist literalists, probably inspired later literalist groups like the Bogomils and Cathars. I find their persecution by the Catholics horrendous but I would no more want to defend their interpretations than I would want to defend literalist Catholics or Protestants. For example. I read Pagels not just for good scholarship but because I too, appreciate that she opens up Christian spirituality.
@@matthewkopp2391 Look what you say is interesting, I am not particularly educated on theology or history. But I think she is missing the point and is wrong about calling the biblical God inferior. I am an atheist but I feel way more inspired from the old testament rather than those gnostic texts or new testament. I think it's a much more sensible God too if I were spiritual at all...
@@bargledargle7941she is not saying the Old Testament god is inferior she is saying that certain early Christians held that belief. She described Marcion for example who believed in the demiurge vs the transcendent God. But a similar distinction is made in the Old Testament. At times God is YHWH and spoken of in anthropomorphic terms and then other times God is described as transcendent and in non-anthropomorphic terms such as I am. There is a theme in the Old Testament as to what constitutes idolatry and the same obsession occurs with Plato who described the demiurge in more neutral terms versus a transcendent god. Early Christianity was infused with Platonism and some took the Plato demiurge idea as evil because of the evil in the world and the evil demonstrated by an Old Testament god. She is just describing different ideas that were around at the time.
@@matthewkopp2391 It's important you corrected me about this. I think the idea of "God of the old testament is evil or inferior" is extremely unattractive and spiritually poor.
@@matthewkopp2391 I am Jewish and she sounds like she wishes she were Jewish too. I am reading "A LIttle Boy in Search of God" by Isaac Bashevis Singer and he speaks of pantheistic ideas. They sound very similar.
“So that they will not understand” reminds me of the paradoxical pointing-out instructions of Zen and Tibetan Dzogchen Buddhism. So fascinating. We have been given such a narrow view of Christianity for thousands of years. In the light of intellectual investigation, something much deeper and (in my opinion) wiser emerges.
@@Fernando-ek8jp An approach to spirituality which is much less preoccupied with doctrine than it is an experiential, integrated way of being in the world. Seeing the Divine as the “ground of being,” the mystery of the universe, rather than a petty God with tribalistic concerns. I think that might have been what Jesus meant by the “Kingdom.” Might just be wishful thinking, though. That being said, these are all very mystical ways of talking about what we know by way of Natural Science. The universe is vast and we are a small part of it. That’s enough for me. :)
@@this_alec I may be completely misunderstanding, but the value I get from your response is basically the admission that we can't really be sure about everything so why not just accept that and stop pretending like we do, there's loads to learn out there.
@@this_alec Then I'm still not understanding what you meant. Maybe you're just applying the principle of speaking in ways explicitly meant to hide their meaning?
Thanks mate. Thats cleared up a couple of difficulties i have had recently. One on the demiurge and the other about ressurection. I love Ms Pagels scholarship.
she was fucking adorable. her enthusiasm for this and energy was incredible: you can tell she really connects with this work in an intrinsic way. I appreciate that more than anything.
- The Roman Empire never died, it became a church. - The British empire never died, it became a global bank. Wonder what will eventually be said about the U.S.A
I had a miserable traumatized childhood. At age 14 I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. My entire being was transformed instantly. God revealed Himself to me in all His Omnipresence. I was healed from my childhood hate and abuse. But I didn't even know what the Bible was. It was when I joined this Jesus Freak cult that I began to be abused by these so-called born again Christian hypocrites. A long time went by and I lost my faith and went bad in life. When I got my faith back I still had many doubts as I was no longer a " funnymentalist ". If anything I am a mystical follower of Jesus Christ, the Christos; the Savior of this world. I would love to study with this lady.
He was a teacher. Not a savior. Many enlightened beings have came to this planet to teach people how to behave. He, like many other ascended masters help people on this side. The best place to look for information is inside of yourself. It's all there. It's not learning..it's remembering ❤
After learning how long ago the book discussed was written, it made more sense about how she expressed her disapproval of the word gnostic. There has been plenty time for her to have grown past her earlier perception and interpretation of the word and how it is used. Excellent and informative video and my thanks and appreciation to you both
"I'll speak on him in a moment" is a gangster ass way of saying "I cant remember the name right now but I will in a minute." Gotta respect that scholarly confidence.
Yes, and I"m sure she is kicking herself for forgetting the name of that other scholar. But it is truly remarkable the command of the material this 81 year old scholar has. I'm grateful for her compassion in being willing to share it with us.
This is one awesome lady. Unique in her style and point of view. She wants to cover what she feels is important for us to understand.🎉🎉🎉 Excellent Lady 💝
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She claims the gnostics are misappropriated as believing in a demiurge yet when challenged on that multiple times she dances around and says “I’d rather not comment on that”. Wtf.
Obviously biased, and she basically admits to that. It's not really what I'm looking for. I'd rather hear from scholars that at least attempt to be objective.
@@Actuary1776 She may have good reasons for ignoring certain parts and acknowledging others, but she's not doing herself any favors not to mention them. I don't know her or her work, but it seemed to me she was more interested in preaching than teaching. Not my cup of tea.
What an interesting subject and guest! So much went over my head but her passion for the subject made it quite inspiring, looking forward to the future discussions
@@swolejeezy2603well, agnostic or otherwise, the idea of the demiurg at least provides a better explanation for the Paradox of Empiricus than anything i've heard from a more traditional Christian apologist.
Precisely, that's what people don't get. She's a believer, but her scholarly experience forced her to be open to the idea of Christian teachings beyond the Orthodox, and she fully recognizes how Church fucked up the entire religion... but the "alternate" cosmology is outside of her comfort zone. Which is a bit odd I admit, because things like the Demiurge and Sophia are very much part of the Valentinian systems that she defends. Nevertheless, she's still has a more open-minded and mature approach not just to Christianity but religion as a whole than 99% of the people out there, and for that she needs to be commended.
As a spiritual person, I find it fascinating how many ppl take religion & religious text so literally. Unfortunately, many teachings have been corrupted by those that don’t truly understand. And the blind lead the blind. It may be helpful to view these teachings as a mirror of reality and how we ourselves act accordingly. And simply realize that our comprehension of these teachings is a direct reflection of our own state of mind (ie if you believe in a wrathful God). As we ourselves inflict judgement upon each other. One can only perceive to the limits of their evolution. Hopefully we can grow past wrathful and focus on love.
Alex, you did a great job at raising questions that really made this lady squirm. Well done, with politeness and respect. A true model you are for all who would question the narrative. Five Stars
Man, Alex's face ,he looks kinda pissed, lol around 36 minutes after obviously being super enthusiastic and curious to speak about admittedly one of the most interesting texts, the Gospel of Judas, and the interviewee just does a cobra and goes back to the others. I totally felt that. I may be projecting but his usual "I'm listening face" doesn't not have such a frown. 😜
@@TheRealShrike I think these iconic academic people are used to being able to give a presentation on what they want and not be told what to talk about. They just tour with a topical presentation and do the same one for a year or two. She's like 80, so maybe she doesn't remember anything else...
It's disappointing as hell as a listener too because the Gospel of Judas is the most interesting one of these texts. She just completely sidestepped talking about it for "muh spirituality", which is pretty irritating to hear coming from a scholar.
I agree. Alex didn't let her off the hook when she claimed the God of the Orthodox interpretation was just made up by Irenaeus and Marcion but is actually within the texts that she espouses. Elaine is very sneaky like Jordan Peterson.
It's fantastic to see such a fantastic atheist thinker really enjoying discussing Christian history and theology. I was an atheist myself most of my life. Its so wonderful to see that people who don't believe in the supernatural elements still seeing value in the philosophy. That's how I switched teams originally. If you enjoy this you would also enjoy ESOTERICA who Alex had on last week and Filip over at th channel LETS TALK RELIGION that covers mysticism in a similar way to this , especially Sufi mysticism but Christian and Jewish also. I think Alex is absolutely wonderful.
I am a staunch Sanathani...yet I listened to whole of your discussion on Gnostic and spiritual freedom . This is new to me. One thing about my chdhood is I studied in a convent run school.. the incident is ... I lost my new pen .. the Sisters who were my teachers asked me to kneel down and pray with them to Mother Mary to find my pen.. at the end of the prayer I heard the sound of my pen falling to the earth..I opened my eyes and saw the pen on my desk.. yet I could not think MMary brought my pen back.. Now after hearing to both your very patient and neutral approach I feel I saw my childhood back in that xtians run school.. Any way by the time I grew up I was a teacher myself in a Govt school of secular themes .. Even now I am secular because all religious approaches are driven by dogmatism and business approach Thank you
The Apocryphon of John does in fact have “yaldaboath” who is indicated to be the Demiurge and creator of the material world, mistakenly though, as the real creator was ‘Sophia’. That text is just what Irenaeus claims it to be.
@@jursamaj not necessarily. The majority of the "gnostic" gospels do in fact align with Paul's 7 authentic epistles and Jesus' parables from the 4 major Gospels. And most of the so called "gnostics" did not think the creator was evil.
@@GnosticInformant "most" is the important part of your comment thats relevant to this comment thread. She seemed to dodge or wave away any mention of such a thing even being in the texts.
@@lambdanebula8473 It would be important to figure out whether Valentinus held these views and interpretations before or after he got passed over as Pope. Forming Valentinianism out of spite for the Church is Irenaeus's viewpoint, who was extremely biased and bitter towards anyone and anything not strictly Church-related. Also, I gotta correct you here, he did not place Sophia as the demiurge. The demiurge is still Yaldabaoth, aka. the Old Testament God, or as Valentinus called him - the Craftsman. Sophia was only responsible for creation of Yaldy and subsequently an attempt to salvage his creation by injecting her wisdom into it, as you said. But as far as I know that's not contrary to what Valentinus taught.
Jesus did not have some secret teaching that contradicted His public teaching. The secret teaching was just the explanation of His public teaching. That's why immediately after He talks about the knowledge being given only to them, He explains the parable he has just told. He, in my opinion, talked in parables, so only those would understand it, who wanted to understand it. Those who didn't "close their eyes" on purpose. So they would not have the excuse that they didn't hear the truth. They heard the truth, and if they cared to understand it, Jesus would have explained it to them. But their hearts were hardened. Just like today. People's hearts are hardened and they don't want to hear the truth. They rather believe any made up complicated stories and explanations instead of the truth that is much less complicated.
@@Sphere723 Just because some people did something, it doesn't mean that everyone did it. And Jesus said elsewhere that "I spoke openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue and in the temple whither the Jews always resort, and in secret have I said nothing" And the fact that He said that they "closed their eyes" means that they did't see the truth because they didn't want to see it, not because Jesus hid it from them. The truth was there before them, and they could have understood it, if they wanted to, but they didn't want to, because their hearts were hardened.
I'm sure she's brilliant, but it seems that she is fairly uncritical of the text, even going so far to affirm that the people who produced the texts are those whose name's the text have been given.
@@toonyandfriends1915Yeah I think if Alex really pressed her she’d admit she doesn’t actually think Thomas or Philip wrote the gospels attributed to them
Elaine Pagels rocked the world of Christianity when her book, the gnostic gospels were published 35 years ago. Most Christians didn’t know that there were other gospels.
Interesting discussion! I know that the title's a bit too long already, but I feel like you should include the guest's name in the title as you have with (almost?) all other guests
50:40 very important this is more evidence to the claim that Christians are polytheists because they worship their Bishops and Priests/Pastors. Worship means total obediance without question following a leader.
A lot of the times, when Alex releases his videos, I become a bit skeptical of whether it would be interesting to watch or not simply because he has been discussing on a wide variety of topics lately. However, I'm quite delighted to announce that once I start watching any of his videos, I become hooked and can't really stop watching. I reckon I've got to stop doubting his ability to produce excellent content. Edit - I have begun to truly admire how he seeks to learn new concepts. I wish I really had his enthusiasm to learn.
The short answer - and the best - is : fairly late writings (noted at a late date, if not actually written later than the last of the texts accepted as of apostolic origin), i.e. those that did not make it into the Catholic canon (list) of texts used for the Liturgies. Many of the better types (and those frequently used in Catholic circles) are still found in the listings associated with The Fathers, or used in various traditions .. e.g. of scholarly or pastoral use, The Protoevangelium of James, The Acts of Paul and Thecla, The Gospel and Acts of Thomas, others are more like modern popular 'novels' of the 'Ben Hur' or 'The Robe' types, as in The Assumption, Letter of Pontius Pilate, Apocalypse of Moses, etc. These and other early Christian texts - specifically or incidentally not included in the term 'all scripture' can be found online (free) at New Advent - Catholic Encyclopedia - Fathers. These include some texts that could have made it into the Canon of the Catholic Holy Bible, 1 Clement, Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas, Liturgy of James, Didache .. but were not sufficiently widely known, used, or listed (the current Apocalypse in the Catholic list of Scripture very nearly did not make it into the list for the same reasons, but familiarity in some the oldest or most respect 'Sees' like Rome, Alexandria, Antioch seem to have won the day, and Hebrews also had a bit of bumpy ride, along with 2 Peter and Jude). The division of Gnostic (mystical, sectarian, or occult knowledge) and Catholic (creedal, liturgical, common use) types was not always as clear-cut as history (or rather as historians) may like to present it; as present within the Catholic Church until the Reformation, i.e. the Saints' Lives (Perpetua and Felicity, Barlaam and Josephat, Sergius and Bacchus, Magdelene, Nicholas or George or Martin or Monica), the mystics (Novatian's Concerning the Trinity, Gertrude of Helfta's 'Insinuationes divinae pietatis', Julian of Norwich 'Revelations of Divine Love'); and even today .. requiring approval of the local Ordinary, the Holy Office (now a Dicastery), or a reigning Sovereign Pontiff (aka the Pope, cf the slightly dubious 'Divine Mercy' devotion of Faustina Kowalaska) .. and such like .... Keep the Faith; tell the truth, shame the devil, and let the demons shriek. God bless. ;o)
One fundamental reason why these early gospels inc the gospel of Magdalene were cast aside, is I believe that they taught Jesus was born to show us God is Love and the love is the way of life; NOT the deviant idea (mostly from Paul & the early Roman Church that Jesus just came to die and save us from our sins - as in the Creed.
I also feel Alex was amazing in his performance as a professional listener. I think the reason he may have come across looking concerned is because he was thinking deeply about the conversation.
It's always impressive to see the resemblance between the bagavat gita and the early christian gospels. About the non duality and indivisibility of all being from god.
I hope to listen to more of you & guests with not only the historical approach but how there might be relevant topics that are current such as politics, culture, society overall.
Please have on Thomas W. Clark. He's the founder of The Center for Naturalism, and coined the term "Generic Subjective Continuity" (Sam Harris did a podcast episode on it). Tom speaks on consciousness, atheism, determinism, death, morality, AI, and other philosophical topics. He will be in an upcoming interview with Sam's wife, Annaka Harris.
great conversation. more please. I studied much of what you are discussing and now remembering so much of my journey through university after university.....driven to know more....I am being refreshed later now in life.....I am a lover of the mystics, the teachers...ah I needed this so much....the Salome ( spelling) with Jesus on the couch....where did you come from... the humanity not divided to man woman....omg....there it is....we come from the light......
![Lord of Spirits - The Book of Jubilees [Ep. 92]](/img/1.gif)
What I found pretty cool in this interview was that after nearly 50 yrs. of studying this, Dr. Pagels was excited and animated when discussing things...
It would be difficult to study something that long if you weren't interested in it 😂
@@myhatmygandhi6217 What about the man who wasted his life studying ant-eaters? :)
If she were honest, she would acknowledge the historicity of these documents is nothing near the canon. Not even close.
@@michaelfetter5413 What do you mean with "historicity"? They are historical documents, that show Christianism was not a monolithic faith in the first two centuries after Christ. Do you think Matthew 27:52, with the dead coming out from their graves just after the crucifixion and visiting Jerusalem, is more "historic" than Gospel of Thomas?
@@karekarenohay4432 Number and consistency of manuscripts also factoring in time from the events.
The gnostic "gospels" are literally fanfic of cultists from hundreds of years later than the canon with a tiny number of manuscripts.
Glad to see you get actual Gnostics on here. This is a reminder to all: The Early Gnostics did not call themselves 'Gnostics' they considered themselves Christians and simply disagreed with the orthodoxy. According to the Apocrypha of John, the main Tragedy in the Gnostic Creation myth was Sophia (a child of the Original God) birthing the Demiurge (aka Yaldabaoth) without the consent of the original God. This was the tragedy instead of eating from the apple. I reccomend ESOTERICA as an introduction to the whole concepts its pretty interesting. 😊
I recommended the video on my playlist “wake up this world is an illusion” titled Dualism: the Illuminati Religion, I pray you wake up from the lowercase god if this world who blinds those who believe not
Fascinating
Memory is finite.
Save space for relevant matters.
Not a fan of Gnosticism, but it does have some interesting tidbits imo
@@rimbusjift7575 how do you know/judge what's relevant or not, especially considering you can't possibly know what will or won't be relevant in your future with any real certainty at all? I'm 100% sure you don't have a memory full of only "relevant" or utilitarian memories lol. Your comment is basically a roundabout way to do whataboutism and express that you don't care about this lol. It's very transparent, brother 😅 Let people enjoy the things they wanna enjoy instead of moralising and judging to make yourself feel special and smart 🤷♀️ The things you care about and think are important are just as accurate/inaccurate, meaningful/meaningless, and relevant/irrelevant as anyone else. You'd have to think pretty highly of yourself or lowly of others to believe otherwise and you should aim to avoid that. Maybe you really are extra special and know more "relevant" stuff than everyone else, but even that wouldn't make it make sense to judge what others want to use their minds for... People are allowed to enjoy things you don't care about and you don't have to let everyone know how you feel about it 🤷♀️
I so admire Elaine Pagels. A renowened scholar, translator and author, she is willing to sit down with Alex for hours and explore, revisit, explain, and converse. She is centered in her experience and scholarship (and spirituality) yet also has such an open, friendly receptivity. What a great dialogue as was the prior one with the great Justin Sledge. Thank you!
Your comment proves the point , that's why such perversions of : APOCRYPHA, SEPTUAGINT, Book of Enoch , Westcott and Hort RV and today Nestles text . All came out of Alexandria , Egypt. The Muslims burned most of this trash , but evidently Satan found a way to hide some of it . This Harvard graduate , is typical of what comes out of that school .
😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊pp😊😊😊😊😊😊😊p😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊p😊😊😊😊ppp😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊p😊pp😊😊😊😊😊😊p😊p😊😊p😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊pp😊ppp😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊p😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊ppppppp😊p😊p0pppp😊😊p😊p😊pp😊😊p😊ppppppppppppppppppppp0ppppppppppppp0ppppp😊pppp0ppppppppppp😊😊😊😊😊ppppšp😊😊😊
😂 She gets to an actual text and says "yeah I don't want to talk about that" 😂😂😂
You had no idea who she was before this
@@michaelmcnamara8047 if people that are truly saved and remember when and where they were " Born Again " would not give any attention to these GNOSTIC so-called books / gospels. They have their roots in Alexandria, Egypt, and the perverted Manuscripts that are used for all these new translations .
I am a Muslim.... And I really really like to listening to Alex's podcasts and interviews. High intellectual with a pleasant voice and gentle but crticial approach.
Looks like you and I are gonna be roomates in hell.
I'm a guitarist, and football enthusiast and I really like to listen to Alex's podcasts, and interviews too.
@@johnniearc😂😂
@@Leo-tf3rw I suppose the blind belief in ancient texts creates a smugness that is impervious to self awareness.
@@johnniearc I always see these types of comments and it’s truly unsettling
This lady is EIGHTY ONE YEARS YOUNG as of 2024!
Wow, she’s so sharp still. I wish my dad was too 🤍
Wisdom is AGELESS !
Oh, you are so right!
She found the truth and the passion. I am 80 and our biggest challenge today is that the youth do not believe we have learned anything of value.
Jesus honored the elders, but also showed they had to learn his secret teachings.
People have many different names for these mysteries now on RUclips channels, but they all arise from these "secret teachings."
When we learn them we are filled with love and light and we can make it through the eye of the needle. You can cling to nothing to make it through.
Thank you for honoring this woman's wisdom.
I wonder if she takes it in the back door.
I'd like to hope so 🥰
She is a Chosen One like myself like Hermes trismegistus. We live by laws of the universe not the laws written by man Beast!! We're not here to sell you anything we're just here to Shine the Light
You are selling your self I see it somewhat as deviant as you speak of divine power you should know has got nothing to do with religions therefore I call you out demons
Dr. Elaine Pagels!!!
You are exquisite in mind, spirit, and beauty! Such an honor to hear your voice and insights. I am grateful for your life's work!
I wonder how these older people feel about being approached by Alex who is so much younger to talk about their work. They must be so so happy to share their thoughts and feelings in a way they wouldn’t usually.
Older people love when younger people pick up their work
😂
She has talked with Dereck Lambert of Mythvision quite a bit and teaches young students. They're used to it.
She’s a professor of history - she probably has dozens of such discussions in her classes and office with students on a weekly basis.
I met Elaine Pagel in 1995 , she is wonderful. I use to mistake her for two other women in the community college who looked so much like her but their intellect wasn’t even close to our good lady Mrs. Elain PAGEL . .. . . What a Real Treat to listen to her here today . She captivated me back in the 1990’s and now here. Thank you 🙏 for this video .
I envie you that. There a couple questions I wish I could pose and then just sit quietly listen to her answer.
You do realise she is insane?
What a remarkable interview! Thank you so much, Alex! Dr. Pagels is an extraordinary soul - so interesting - and you asked her great questions!
Can you have Jesus on your podcast next time ?
I think it would answer a lot of questions
dude has a sword mayb he got arrested
@@alanbregovic8889 I do not understand why he is not responding. It is a perfectly valid request.
@alexdenton6586 - Jesus is responding. He is on the RUclips channel called "Tom Loud".
dw lad, i've got him on speed dial. i'll see if he's not too busy with world hunger and all that x
it seems pretty intellectually dishonest to criticise his works and teachings without debating or even offering to talk with him.
I attended a prlvate Jesuit college. During a class on New Testament theology the class started debating Genesis with some blaming Eve for our world while others refused to do so. The priest ended the debate by writing The Gnostics on the chalk board and advising us to learn about them. The Jesuits were later decribed to me as the one's following the dark or black pope. That priest later left the Jesuit order in order to get married. It is likely he discovered the Gospel Of Phillip which led him down a different path. He passed away as a spiritual man which opened up to us this different path. Yes back in the 1970s. Later in life I met a pastor from a Disciples Of Christ who simply asked me if I accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior which I replied yes. That pastor said congratulations you are ahead of the 90 percent of people here. Then he finally went on to say thank you we are here for you only if you need us. Spirituality and the gospel of thomas tells me and many others that The Kingdom is inside and outside of each of us. The fact that we have this 80 year old lady talking about this subject is truly a blessing.
What an incredible conversation. That woman is so learned and fascinating. Great post!
And still so closed minded.
@@StayinBud Are you capable of explaining why you think so?
Hmmm. I have a different question, it seems reaching a spiritual level will allow you to teach new things revealed just to you, if this would've been allowed, who would be the judge of saying you can teach your revelations?. It seems a recipe for disaster, just like social media nowadays where anyone without being knowledgeable can say what they please, and have a following. Im not willing to take that gamble with religion because of its fanatic nature. Perhaps was best for the church to do gatekeeping. Idk.
@@sdust251977you do know if you can trust yourself. I learned the concept of self guidance through Abraham Hicks explanation of the Law of Attraction of our universe.
@@WayWalker3 She has an obvious bias
I'm only 5 minutes in but I absolutely love the authentic joy Elaine has talking about the findings from 1945. It's so contagious, I love it. :)
Mr. O'Connor and Mrs. Dr. Pagels, job well done. Enjoyed your conversation on many levels. It was intellectual, spiritually and emotionally fulfilling.
Madam you have rare courage and intellectual honesty as you review these texts and add your interpretations. I wish you long life in good health
I could listen to this woman for days. So brilliant, yet so down to earth.
Miracles still abound. This show popped up on my screen and the timing of this information coming to me is almost beyond belief. Not enough space to explain. Elaine Pagels is the most credible and brilliant scholar on the gnostic documents. Thank you for your great presentation!
Dr Pagel is genuine and careful when she speaks, but, she does reveal truth very easily. Wonderful teaching video, thank you. The Catholic church is full of puzzles, I had to attend a Catholic school and church until 3rd grade.
Having earned my degree in Religious Studies from UNC under Bart Ehrman, among others, it's very odd to hear a scholar dodge questions and say, "I'd prefer not to comment on that," and, "I dont like that [source] very much" every time anything contrary to her poisition is raised.
Great interview Alex.
I found that odd, too. She admits to "playing favorites." It's as if she's formed up her own orthodoxy for early Christianity, based on both the Gnostic Gospels and the New Testament. There are places in this video where she doesn't appear to be speaking as a scholar but as a believer, and I wonder whether for her there's any daylight between the two. Strange to see in a foundational interview meant to give us an "overview."
She is against the sensationalisation of the Gnostic gospels.
Her position is explicitly against some sources, and has to entail some ignoring of the most obviously wacky of the Dead Sea scrolls.
I don't mind her moving between believe and scholarship. It adds some personal flavor.
@@newtonswig Wanting to avoid sensationalizing them is one thing. Denying they contain certain ideas and then hand-waving away evidence to the contrary is something else.
Seems like anything she doesn't like isn't "real" gnosticism. It has kind of a "that's not real socialism" feel to it.
@@pietervoogt Nothing wrong with it until it becomes unclear which hat you're wearing.
I found this discussion extremely fascinating; it resonated with some of my own thoughts about religions and Bible texts. I have listened to it ten times, and each time I go back, I discover another gem. One takeaway: I feel the first trinity is a mother, father, and son, not a father, son, and a spirit.
Read the two chapters they quote from the actual Bible and see how honest they are with the context of the verses they quote. Straight from the father (or mother, who cares? Point is, it’s a spirit) of lies.
I find her contributions so enriching for my Christian faith! And it makes so much sense, that the male disciples thought, that there should not be any female disciples, and that the Roman Catholic Church suppressed the knowledge of female disciples.
Mother, father and child
@@rahelkamber4839you know Elaine doesn't believe the Bible to be true right? 😂
Thats a pagan trinity ;) nowhere found in the old testament
Im hybrid mindset.
when you say:
Pray like a LOVER NOT LIKE A BEGGARS.
The meaning is
When you recognize that the Holy Spirit dwells within you, your approach to prayer transforms completely. Instead of viewing prayer as an act of begging for something external, you embrace it as a powerful expression of gratitude and love. This shift allows you to pray with confidence, tapping into the infinite strength and wisdom residing inside you. When you pray like a lover, acknowledging the divine connection within, you cultivate a more profound and personal relationship with the divine. This heartfelt communication redefines worship, turning it into a joyful celebration of what is already present in your life, rather than a desperate plea for change. By aligning your prayers with gratitude and love, you unlock a deeper understanding of your spiritual journey, inspiring others to do the same.
This is the approach of Eastern Indic faiths - aka Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism etc. all of which are known as Sanatana Dharma (Eternal religion / Law)
"Ye ARE (already) g o d s !" (Jesus) And yes, a LORD is NEVER begging
Very interesting Angelica
This is real Christianity. A brilliant, enlightening interview of well directed questions and enlightened responses. Congratulations
Just because gnostics don't exist anymore doesn't mean they're the real ones. It could be gnosticism was an innovation in the first place but died down in history but archaeologists found their texts in the 20th century
Seems more anti-Christian to me, and apparently even those Christians at a time where there was no institution or "canon" saw it this way.
Aww it's heart warming to see her eyes light up when you asked a sensible interesting question.
Thank you for this interview and introducing me to Elaine Pagels.
Absolutely enjoyed that conversation. Mark 4:11 is the underlying proof of the conundrum that we battle. I am honored to find a woman so dedicated to that wisdom. What a marvelous life. We are all one in the light.
Dr. Pagels is such an excellent scholar! Wonderful discussion!
Know thyself... The power of God is within you...
What does this mean? The power of God is within you?
@pamelabarbato1623 It's not meant for everyone to understand.
@TheLightSeeker..🙄.
@@hypnopompicstate9910 😉...
@@hypnopompicstate9910😉...
"Faith only begins when the proposition to which you assent is one that is doubted, or might quite conceivably be doubted, by people of equal intelligence with yourself."
-Fr. Ronald Knox
from his book, In Soft Garments: Classic Catholic Apologetics
I struggle with the lack of time spent on why the original church fathers felt the way they did about these texts. She makes it all feel very arbitrary. It seems apt to subject these texts to some textual criticism and dig in to why they were discarded.
Yeah. These were the Scientologists of their day.
There were councils held to bring the people of faith together to decide on what was the truth. The most split opinions were on more vague theological ideas (e.g. is God three persons or three natures - one or three, etc.).
Damn-near nobody believed the Gnostic beliefs. Same thing with these "banned" gospels. They weren't banned. They were essentially fan fiction.
People always point to the most sane things from the heretical texts while ignoring the completely insane parts that obviously invalidate them.
A RUclipsr named Wendigoon did a video on them that was really good and entertaining.
Thank you omg gnosticism is so toxic
The process of formulating the New Testament into one cohesive canon took over 200 years. There were some prerequisites for a book to be considered for the canon:
1. Apostolic Origin: It needed to be written by an apostle or someone close to an apostle.
2. Orthodox Doctrine: It had to align with the accepted teachings of the Christian faith.
3. Liturgical Use: It had to be widely used in early Christian worship and teaching.
4. Catholicity (Universality): It was accepted by the majority of Christian communities across different regions. This was a long and grueling process of organization and communication in times of harsh persecution and limited resources, especially for the people who were Christians (typically peasants and nomads).
5. Inspiration by the Holy Spirit: It was believed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit.
The Gnostic Gospels were excluded because they didn’t meet any of the criteria except for the last one, which is more arguable. They included theological contradictions to the other New Testament scriptures. They were written decades to centuries after any apostles or eyewitnesses of Jesus lived, so we know the Gospels were not written by who they claim to be written by (Thomas, Mary Magdalene, Peter, Philip, Judas, etc.). Also, “Gnostic Christianity” was not a particular sect of Christianity; it was a label given to churches and groups that fell outside of orthodox doctrines and beliefs, so any group that was heretical would be lumped into the Gnostic Christian category.
These Gospels aren’t special just because they exist; just like the countless books excluded from the canon, they simply did not meet the necessary criteria to be considered trustworthy, widely accepted, theologically consistent, and effectually canonical.
Yeah, it gives me highschool history class vibes. ''Alas! the dogmatic and weak minded preists were upset by such claims! so they did what they knew best, ban the books, burn the heretics...''
This was such a fascinating and informative interview. Thank you for presenting it. ❤
I love Elaine Pagels, she's such a well spoken and fascinating scholar
Imagine a teacher saying:
"I'm going to explicitly try and teach a group of students so they don't understand, then select a smaller group to teach them properly"
That is different from: "They aren't at the level that would be able to understand, so I have to dumb it down for them to get the basics. You're more advanced so I can go more in depth"
I get what you are saying and mostly agree, but there is a kernel of truth to the original claim. You cannot teach calculus to the average first grader. You have to start at the basics. And yes you as a teachers have to adapt your teachings to the level of the students even if they are a group.
Again I am not saying you are wrong, but there is a kernel of truth in what she is saying. I think she is using this fact as a defense.
Artificially crafted mystery and conspiracy. People love that shit.
@@RanEncounter Again, that's different.
The claim is that Jesus spoke in ways meant to be misunderstood.
Sure, I wouldn't teach calculus to a first grader, I would teach them first grade math that they would understand.
The equivalent would be for me to give text math problems to a group of first graders, and then I took aside a handful of them so I could explain how to solve the problems.
The "secret" teachings, in the gospels at least, were:
Here's a parable that will leave most of the listeners confused (but don't worry, that's on purpose) , but I'll explain it to a few of you.
@@RanEncounter Or listen to the kid for once when they can say they can see and understand something and not swat away their funny way of describing the answer 4 units ahead of the lesson
@@Fernando-ek8jp Look you seem to have taken this totally different than what I actually wrote. You seem to be too eager to have a debate.
"Again, that's different."
Yes that is why I said that there was a kernel of truth in what she said.
"The claim is that Jesus spoke in ways meant to be misunderstood."
Yes this is the ideas of a person who has for years had to bend their mind to religion to make it make sense. I was just pointing out where this kind of thinking originates and how she does not see it as a problem any more.
"The equivalent would be for me to give text math problems to a group of first graders, and then I took aside a handful of them so I could explain how to solve the problems."
I literally agreed! Is really a kernel of truth so hard to understand? Do you not understand what I said at all?
"The "secret" teachings, in the gospels at least, were:
Here's a parable that will leave most of the listeners confused (but don't worry, that's on purpose) , but I'll explain it to a few of you."
Yes. I literally agree. Sigh.
Do you not understand that how she has in her mind changed the kernel of truth as I said it to what is in the gospels because of her beliefs?
I was born into a very Catholic family but now 55 and not practicing Catholic. My youngest child went to Baptist and learned the Bible so much more than I. Now as she got older she pulled away from religion but does believe in god/Jesus. She says it to hard to follow everything the church taught because to many missing books. We all have faith in our lord Jesus Christ but fear being steered in a word direction. I personally feel like Baptist teach Bible & Catholic worships. So we call ourselves bathlic combining two faiths. I lost my my oldest daughter and feel her at times but not all the time so I do know we are surrounded with love of god & all those that past that love us. Includes guardian angels if they exist. Lovely lady & so happy we have people with huge faith but looks deeper for more teaching. Must thank her for passing on her knowledge. I’m just gonna have to rewatch many times to comprehend cuz I’m kinda confused
So am I, and I'm going to watch again myself. Sorry you lost your daughter. It must be still difficult today.
The thumbnail got me hyped for a split second, did Alex get an interview with THE Jesus Christ? lol
Doubt it would be his first stop after coming to earth again but you never know
Lmao
@@butter_nut1817 he'd most probably be murdered by Evangelicals in the US as soon as he said that they are the new pharisees, but we know no one's coming back from the dead after 2000 years of a failed promise.
@@butter_nut1817You're right, Lex would get him first
Like your comment is an interview with THE Alex O'Connor.
Great interview, very interesting topic and speaker.
(P.S: commentors be grateful for the podcast guest)
I notice some people complain about her not wishing to speak on certain topics. Bear in mind, her enthusiasm for the topic might not stem from the same place as yours, and that different angle for her curiosity is likely to be why she's dived so deep into these texts.
Good to see and hear you again ms Pagels. Thanks again for your work. Without it, I could not finish the work I began years ago. It is now finished.
Thank you for this interview. I've been fascinated with Gnosticism for a couple years now. I was raised Catholic and when I got older, I began to have many questions. The teaching of Christianity never really added up but when I began to study Gnosticism it began to all come together. These teachings tied up a lot of loose ends. It makes it all more believable. Although I don't know if I'll ever have complete faith.
They are filled with Greek philosophy which differs from disciples which is mainly based Jewish and old testament
look up the Essenes. A Jewish sect Jesus was part of. They regarded woman equal to man and had rituals like baptism. Aaron Abke talks about them quite often.
I was raised Catholic also and also had MANY questions as I got older that nobody could answer. I also found out early to even ask is a sin. So now older and wiser I had to leave the Catholic Church especially with this latest Pope as my soul just felt unease and I needed to step back and search. Ironically this video popped up and I am SO intrigued. Then, I read your comment and felt relief that I am not alone, so thank you!
Amazing interview Alex. Listening while I fly home from Florida.
What would you feel if Alex asked a question related to paprika specifically in this interview? Is there any possible way this could be related to paprika in any way without changing the subject?
This is a very welcome conversation in my search for greater understanding. It’s not unexpected that your video suddenly appeared in my search for gnostic information. Thank you so much. 🖖👀
I have x
Wonderful to see Elaine on the podcast. I’ve been following her work for more than 20 years. Crucial insights on my spiritual journey. Thanks and cheers to you both.
"The gnostic gospels don't contradict the canonical gospels"--well that's a lie!
She's still trying to convince herself the gnostic gospels are authentic secret teachings of Jesus!!!!!😅😅😅😅😅😅😅
Are you aware of her ever acknowledging/addressing "A Course in Miracles"? I recently discovered it and am thunderstruck by its quality. I noticed similarities to some gnostic teaching, and some of those who study it have referred to it as "Neo-gnostic."
Edit: I've reviewed some part of work, on youtube and elsewhere, but I've yet to see any reference to ACIM.
@@jenniferabel2811 no
In Kerala, India we believe that St. Thomas came to India in AD 52.
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Deepok Chopra included descriptions of his growing up there and the Christian denomination unique in that locale. This was in one of his early books.
So it was Thomas and not Christ himself?
@@A_Stereotypical_Heretic We are called Thomas Christians
@@thomasthomasphilp4393 I was asking because I believe I have heard of some oral traditions in India that say Christ came and ministered there long after his supposed crucifixion.
When you read or listen to the many testimonials of the people who have experienced NDE's this all makes sense. Our orgin is the light, we are all one. Everything is from and part of the light! I thurally enjoyed this video.
Not all NDE’s are the same, and nobody has ever come back from dying.
I’ve always found NDE’s being very weak evidence for an afterlife, because NDE’s can also be explained by the fact we are all human. Perhaps when you get close to death your body produces images of white light as your body and brain struggle to survive.
I’m not saying I know this is the case but I’m saying that seeing light at the end of life or close to it, does not mean you’re seeing a religious afterlife. It could just mean that, this is the visual experience in your head moments before death.
If you want to believe that they are seeing an afterlife that’s fine, but it’s not reasonable evidence that would have to be entirely faith based
I always understood the hidden meaning of parables as an idiot or insincere filter.
“Who who seeks finds, he who knocks the door opens”
Alongside of ...
“We have left all to follow You...”
Alongside of
“It is given to you to know the secret of the kingdom ... but to them I speak in parables.”
So the disciples had access to the solutions to the enigmatic parables because they had proven they were sincere and willing to follow...
The parables went out to provoke the seekers to seek. But the ones who just wanted to see a rock star ... they got what they wanted.
Spot on.
Many maliciously ascribe the idea of secret teachings to some arbitrary exclusive club mentality.
If you're open to it's ideas, it's open to you.
For everyone else, what was left was Marx's "opiate of the masses".
Bingo! The parables teased out the seekers, "those with ears to hear."
You're very astute.
Most people idolized Jesus instead of following him. Like you said, they wanted a rockstar. They put him on a pedestal and saw him as better than everyone else when his message was: we are all one.
@@amosvictor9055 spot on. My biggest issue with most variants of the faith is they mistook the messenger for the message.
only pure in heart can resist power abuse,
able to see with G-d
These books should be taken as seriously as the canonical books. Christians are losing members more and more and the teachings on these books can bring people back. That the kingdom of heaven is within us, that we can all reach Christ consciousness is revolutionary and it resonates with so many people
Christianity is an ideology to control humans running on low vibrations.
Not as many people as you think, and that number is dwindling, which is a great sign that more and more are waking up to the objective reality without God or Jesus. Amen to that.
@@tron.44 we have to accept reality if we are to fix the problem. Numbers are decreasing and this other aspect of Christianity resonates with so many people.
@@DaveGfrom3it’s not about numbers. It’s about the True Word being spread. As long as all had heard the truth. You dare taint the Gospel for mere perception of men. You can’t have read the word and really believe in some secret teaching. Men manipulate the word to draw us close to the evil one. Don’t slip
@@Ashamanu7860 the powers that be have exploited the gospels to make you sheep and even get violent toward anyone that disagrees. That’s not Jesus’ way. And the Gnostic gospels contain teachings from Jesus. Look at the state of the world with Christianity as it’s been. Those books were kept out of the canonical Bible because they thought about the divine powers we all have in our consciousness. God said His name is I am. Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within. Be still and know I am the lord. That we can do better than Jesus. I’d rather know all of Jesus’ teachings, not just the ones the pedophilic Catholic Church chooses
Just a brief on “the undivided”, when you still your mind completely (be still and know that I am god) this stillness brings about a transcendent state called samadhi in Sanskrit. While in this state of samadhi, you literally see everything as one, you literally do not see separation, further still, samadhi has layers, if you pass the final layer your body consciousness disappears, you are now beyond space and time, seeing will still happen but from a different level than the eyes, you don’t experience through the body…. Therefore that “undivided” is the state of samadhi…. So be still
THE GOAT 🐐 ALEX O’CONNOR BACK AT IT AGAIN, I’ve learned so much from you my man, so grateful you’re around on RUclips. LEGEND 🔥
And what do u believe ?
The goat isn't a good thing in the Bible. Only the sheep will go to heaven
So I'm not sure what you mean by her being a goat.
Impressive interview, and was nice to see so much wisdom in a young person, being on par with the older one. Love it ❤
Outstanding clarity with this presentation. Thank you!
UNDIVIDED, I AM! 😊
Alex wants to explore the breadth of Gnosticism.
Pagels wants to talk obout the Gospel of Thomas.
There are many other experts. Pagels was at one short period a fundamentalist who did not like many literalist doctrines, especially the „going to hell“ ideas which are not even Biblical. But texts like the Gospel of Thomas confirmed her spiritual sense of Christianity and a path to practice Christianity in a non-literal way. So there is a little bias but still a great scholar and I appreciate both her spiritual sense and her scholarship. A lot of what she writes is basically an apologetic defense for non-literalist interpretations and that there is very old tradition of it.
There are other scholars such as mythicists who focus on other Gnostic texts to continue their critique of Christianity, who do go into the texts and interpretations that Pagels finds shallow.
No doubt IMO the Marcionist literalists, probably inspired later literalist groups like the Bogomils and Cathars. I find their persecution by the Catholics horrendous but I would no more want to defend their interpretations than I would want to defend literalist Catholics or Protestants. For example.
I read Pagels not just for good scholarship but because I too, appreciate that she opens up Christian spirituality.
@@matthewkopp2391 Look what you say is interesting, I am not particularly educated on theology or history. But I think she is missing the point and is wrong about calling the biblical God inferior. I am an atheist but I feel way more inspired from the old testament rather than those gnostic texts or new testament. I think it's a much more sensible God too if I were spiritual at all...
@@bargledargle7941she is not saying the Old Testament god is inferior she is saying that certain early Christians held that belief. She described Marcion for example who believed in the demiurge vs the transcendent God.
But a similar distinction is made in the Old Testament. At times God is YHWH and spoken of in anthropomorphic terms and then other times God is described as transcendent and in non-anthropomorphic terms such as I am.
There is a theme in the Old Testament as to what constitutes idolatry and the same obsession occurs with Plato who described the demiurge in more neutral terms versus a transcendent god.
Early Christianity was infused with Platonism and some took the Plato demiurge idea as evil because of the evil in the world and the evil demonstrated by an Old Testament god.
She is just describing different ideas that were around at the time.
@@matthewkopp2391 It's important you corrected me about this.
I think the idea of "God of the old testament is evil or inferior" is extremely unattractive and spiritually poor.
@@matthewkopp2391 I am Jewish and she sounds like she wishes she were Jewish too. I am reading "A LIttle Boy in Search of God" by Isaac Bashevis Singer and he speaks of pantheistic ideas. They sound very similar.
“So that they will not understand” reminds me of the paradoxical pointing-out instructions of Zen and Tibetan Dzogchen Buddhism. So fascinating. We have been given such a narrow view of Christianity for thousands of years. In the light of intellectual investigation, something much deeper and (in my opinion) wiser emerges.
Which is?
@@Fernando-ek8jp An approach to spirituality which is much less preoccupied with doctrine than it is an experiential, integrated way of being in the world. Seeing the Divine as the “ground of being,” the mystery of the universe, rather than a petty God with tribalistic concerns. I think that might have been what Jesus meant by the “Kingdom.” Might just be wishful thinking, though.
That being said, these are all very mystical ways of talking about what we know by way of Natural Science. The universe is vast and we are a small part of it. That’s enough for me. :)
@@this_alec I may be completely misunderstanding, but the value I get from your response is basically the admission that we can't really be sure about everything so why not just accept that and stop pretending like we do, there's loads to learn out there.
@@Fernando-ek8jp Certainly not what I meant :)
@@this_alec Then I'm still not understanding what you meant.
Maybe you're just applying the principle of speaking in ways explicitly meant to hide their meaning?
Thanks mate. Thats cleared up a couple of difficulties i have had recently. One on the demiurge and the other about ressurection. I love Ms Pagels scholarship.
she was fucking adorable. her enthusiasm for this and energy was incredible: you can tell she really connects with this work in an intrinsic way. I appreciate that more than anything.
Unless you bring up Samael/Yaldabaoth/Abraxas then she shuts down, dodges and dismisses.
Totally NOT necessary to use the F word. You just used it for shock value. It takes away all credibility for anything else you say after that!!
Agreed , swearing is from the devil
Why did you have to use the f word ? How young are you ?
You have to admit what an excellent job the Roman empire did on rebranding itself into an even more powerful Roman Catholic church.
- The Roman Empire never died, it became a church.
- The British empire never died, it became a global bank.
Wonder what will eventually be said about the U.S.A
😢 yes !
What a damn shame !
What a joke 😢
It'll be a church and a bank@@jamesandersonwalsh
@@jamesandersonwalsh hmm…very interesting. Maybe an overarching LLM (Large Language Model) of God?
The Church was hi-jacked by Rome then the Khazarians.
Elaine Pagels is such a legendary scholar! Thank you for exploring her ideas about these early teachings.
I had a miserable traumatized childhood. At age 14 I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. My entire being was transformed instantly. God revealed Himself to me in all His Omnipresence. I was healed from my childhood hate and abuse. But I didn't even know what the Bible was. It was when I joined this Jesus Freak cult that I began to be abused by these so-called born again Christian hypocrites. A long time went by and I lost my faith and went bad in life. When I got my faith back I still had many doubts as I was no longer a " funnymentalist ". If anything I am a mystical follower of Jesus Christ, the Christos; the Savior of this world. I would love to study with this lady.
He was a teacher. Not a savior. Many enlightened beings have came to this planet to teach people how to behave. He, like many other ascended masters help people on this side. The best place to look for information is inside of yourself. It's all there. It's not learning..it's remembering ❤
its time for a new printed bible with the gnostic gospels added as an addendum (supplement) to finally complete the Bible as it should be
Hear! Hear! Read my "Green Fire" geoff nelson hill, Bookshops UK & US. 🤔
After learning how long ago the book discussed was written, it made more sense about how she expressed her disapproval of the word gnostic. There has been plenty time for her to have grown past her earlier perception and interpretation of the word and how it is used. Excellent and informative video and my thanks and appreciation to you both
"I'll speak on him in a moment" is a gangster ass way of saying "I cant remember the name right now but I will in a minute." Gotta respect that scholarly confidence.
Yes, and I"m sure she is kicking herself for forgetting the name of that other scholar. But it is truly remarkable the command of the material this 81 year old scholar has. I'm grateful for her compassion in being willing to share it with us.
I only hope to have the faculties Dr Pagels has in her 80’s. I’m 77 and can relate to very familiar names I suddenly can’t remember at the moment.
@@cwellik805 I'm 35 and have the same problem (and same hope) 😅
But it’s not necessary to call her out in this, even in a “clever” gangster ass way.
This is one awesome lady. Unique in her style and point of view. She wants to cover what she feels is important for us to understand.🎉🎉🎉
Excellent Lady 💝
I'm incredibly grateful this came across my feed. Thank you!
Wow, She is just so wonderful to listen to. Loved this conversation!
Wow, Elaine Pagels is a beautiful person. Thanks for the introduction to her and her work. You're doing God's work, Mr. O'Connor.
The most beautiful books are yet to be written as AUTOBIOGRAPHICS.. THANKS THAT THE THEOSOPHICALS TRANSIT THE NEW PLANETARIANS..BEYOND THE HEBREWS THAT CHILDRENS CHILDREN HAVE BEEN ATTACKED IN THE JERUSALEM OF THE TODAY..JOURNALISM MUST END TWO TEIR MALE MALE ALPHA ADMINISTRATIONS
I’d heard that Pagels was ill and might not make it. I’m glad to see her up and around again.
This is so fascinating! Thanks for this interview 🙏
She claims the gnostics are misappropriated as believing in a demiurge yet when challenged on that multiple times she dances around and says “I’d rather not comment on that”. Wtf.
Obviously biased, and she basically admits to that. It's not really what I'm looking for. I'd rather hear from scholars that at least attempt to be objective.
@@AudunWangen You won't get that from a Gnostic. Like trying to get truth out of a Freemason....
elaine pagels is a modern gnostic, same heresy that irenaeus and the other church fathers debunked a thousand years ago already
@@AudunWangen It’s disappointing for sure, she’s supposedly an icon in her field.
@@Actuary1776 She may have good reasons for ignoring certain parts and acknowledging others, but she's not doing herself any favors not to mention them.
I don't know her or her work, but it seemed to me she was more interested in preaching than teaching. Not my cup of tea.
What an interesting subject and guest! So much went over my head but her passion for the subject made it quite inspiring, looking forward to the future discussions
This was incredible! ❤ Her passion is amazing! Thanks for having her Alex!
A very interesting interview. I loved hearing Elaine Pagels share her knowledge. Thank you Alex!
She comes across as a believer who gets out of her comfort zone when demiurg and weird named realms come up.
I’d get out of my comfort zone too if I was a believer, but it just seems weird to hear from such a credentialed professional
@@swolejeezy2603well, agnostic or otherwise, the idea of the demiurg at least provides a better explanation for the Paradox of Empiricus than anything i've heard from a more traditional Christian apologist.
Precisely, that's what people don't get. She's a believer, but her scholarly experience forced her to be open to the idea of Christian teachings beyond the Orthodox, and she fully recognizes how Church fucked up the entire religion... but the "alternate" cosmology is outside of her comfort zone. Which is a bit odd I admit, because things like the Demiurge and Sophia are very much part of the Valentinian systems that she defends.
Nevertheless, she's still has a more open-minded and mature approach not just to Christianity but religion as a whole than 99% of the people out there, and for that she needs to be commended.
Then you don’t get Gnosticism as you can only see the esoteric not the exoteric.
As a spiritual person, I find it fascinating how many ppl take religion & religious text so literally. Unfortunately, many teachings have been corrupted by those that don’t truly understand. And the blind lead the blind.
It may be helpful to view these teachings as a mirror of reality and how we ourselves act accordingly. And simply realize that our comprehension of these teachings is a direct reflection of our own state of mind (ie if you believe in a wrathful God). As we ourselves inflict judgement upon each other.
One can only perceive to the limits of their evolution. Hopefully we can grow past wrathful and focus on love.
Alex, you did a great job at raising questions that really made this lady squirm. Well done, with politeness and respect. A true model you are for all who would question the narrative. Five Stars
Man, Alex's face ,he looks kinda pissed, lol around 36 minutes after obviously being super enthusiastic and curious to speak about admittedly one of the most interesting texts, the Gospel of Judas, and the interviewee just does a cobra and goes back to the others. I totally felt that. I may be projecting but his usual "I'm listening face" doesn't not have such a frown. 😜
He does the same thing when she flat out refuses to talk about the Sethian dark demiurge.
Yeah, what was that all about? Such a strange refusal from her in an otherwise interesting interview. It. came across as really bizarre.
@@TheRealShrike I think these iconic academic people are used to being able to give a presentation on what they want and not be told what to talk about. They just tour with a topical presentation and do the same one for a year or two. She's like 80, so maybe she doesn't remember anything else...
It's disappointing as hell as a listener too because the Gospel of Judas is the most interesting one of these texts. She just completely sidestepped talking about it for "muh spirituality", which is pretty irritating to hear coming from a scholar.
He smells witchy b.s.
Excellent guest. Dr Pagels is an outstanding scholar and speaker and you interacted with her perfectly.
I agree. Alex didn't let her off the hook when she claimed the God of the Orthodox interpretation was just made up by Irenaeus and Marcion but is actually within the texts that she espouses.
Elaine is very sneaky like Jordan Peterson.
What a great opportunity to hear, Elaine Pagels
It's fantastic to see such a fantastic atheist thinker really enjoying discussing Christian history and theology. I was an atheist myself most of my life. Its so wonderful to see that people who don't believe in the supernatural elements still seeing value in the philosophy. That's how I switched teams originally. If you enjoy this you would also enjoy ESOTERICA who Alex had on last week and Filip over at th channel LETS TALK RELIGION that covers mysticism in a similar way to this , especially Sufi mysticism but Christian and Jewish also. I think Alex is absolutely wonderful.
You should interview David Bentley Hart. So much to talk about.
This!
Couldn’t agree more
I was about to say just that.
I am a staunch Sanathani...yet I listened to whole of your discussion on Gnostic and spiritual freedom . This is new to me.
One thing about my chdhood is I studied in a convent run school.. the incident is ...
I lost my new pen .. the Sisters who were my teachers asked me to kneel down and pray with them to Mother Mary to find my pen.. at the end of the prayer I heard the sound of my pen falling to the earth..I opened my eyes and saw the pen on my desk.. yet I could not think MMary brought my pen back..
Now after hearing to both your very patient and neutral approach I feel I saw my childhood back in that xtians run school..
Any way by the time I grew up I was a teacher myself in a Govt school of secular themes ..
Even now I am secular because all religious approaches are driven by dogmatism and business approach
Thank you
Her knowledge and wisdom is appreciated thank you for delivering this!!
Great stuff, Alex. I love this road you are taking. I'm envisioning many conversations between you and Derek of Mythvision down the line.
Derek of mythvision is a cynic. But Alex has a good soul.
So GLAD to hear someone who has spoke of these for some time.
The Apocryphon of John does in fact have “yaldaboath” who is indicated to be the Demiurge and creator of the material world, mistakenly though, as the real creator was ‘Sophia’. That text is just what Irenaeus claims it to be.
I get a lot of the sense that this woman has just imposed her own views on all of it (as believers are wont to do).
@@jursamajI absolutely got the same feeling. To not want to even comment on that side of the texts was disappointing.
@@jursamaj not necessarily. The majority of the "gnostic" gospels do in fact align with Paul's 7 authentic epistles and Jesus' parables from the 4 major Gospels. And most of the so called "gnostics" did not think the creator was evil.
@@GnosticInformant "most" is the important part of your comment thats relevant to this comment thread. She seemed to dodge or wave away any mention of such a thing even being in the texts.
@@lambdanebula8473 It would be important to figure out whether Valentinus held these views and interpretations before or after he got passed over as Pope. Forming Valentinianism out of spite for the Church is Irenaeus's viewpoint, who was extremely biased and bitter towards anyone and anything not strictly Church-related.
Also, I gotta correct you here, he did not place Sophia as the demiurge. The demiurge is still Yaldabaoth, aka. the Old Testament God, or as Valentinus called him - the Craftsman. Sophia was only responsible for creation of Yaldy and subsequently an attempt to salvage his creation by injecting her wisdom into it, as you said. But as far as I know that's not contrary to what Valentinus taught.
Jesus did not have some secret teaching that contradicted His public teaching. The secret teaching was just the explanation of His public teaching. That's why immediately after He talks about the knowledge being given only to them, He explains the parable he has just told. He, in my opinion, talked in parables, so only those would understand it, who wanted to understand it. Those who didn't "close their eyes" on purpose. So they would not have the excuse that they didn't hear the truth. They heard the truth, and if they cared to understand it, Jesus would have explained it to them. But their hearts were hardened. Just like today. People's hearts are hardened and they don't want to hear the truth. They rather believe any made up complicated stories and explanations instead of the truth that is much less complicated.
How do you know? He very well could have. It was a common religous practice in the Roman world of the time.
@@Sphere723 Just because some people did something, it doesn't mean that everyone did it. And Jesus said elsewhere that "I spoke openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue and in the temple whither the Jews always resort, and in secret have I said nothing"
And the fact that He said that they "closed their eyes" means that they did't see the truth because they didn't want to see it, not because Jesus hid it from them. The truth was there before them, and they could have understood it, if they wanted to, but they didn't want to, because their hearts were hardened.
elaine pagels is my hero! i love her books. so glad she's on your channel
I'm sure she's brilliant, but it seems that she is fairly uncritical of the text, even going so far to affirm that the people who produced the texts are those whose name's the text have been given.
Yeah, something progressive biblical critics don’t do for the gospels.
she says so but she probably knows it's just tradition
@@toonyandfriends1915Yeah I think if Alex really pressed her she’d admit she doesn’t actually think Thomas or Philip wrote the gospels attributed to them
Duh. She's only interested in undermining Christianity, not truth
@@rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr1 She is quite clearly a Christian. I don’t doubt you and her disagree over details but she is a Christian all the same
I love hearing from Pagels! Thanks for having her on!
Elaine Pagels rocked the world of Christianity when her book, the gnostic gospels were published 35 years ago. Most Christians didn’t know that there were other gospels.
This was absolutely fascinating. She is amazing. Thank you for posting this interview.. ..just amazing.
Interesting discussion! I know that the title's a bit too long already, but I feel like you should include the guest's name in the title as you have with (almost?) all other guests
50:40 very important this is more evidence to the claim that Christians are polytheists because they worship their Bishops and Priests/Pastors. Worship means total obediance without question following a leader.
I really enjoyed this video Alex , thank you
A lot of the times, when Alex releases his videos, I become a bit skeptical of whether it would be interesting to watch or not simply because he has been discussing on a wide variety of topics lately. However, I'm quite delighted to announce that once I start watching any of his videos, I become hooked and can't really stop watching. I reckon I've got to stop doubting his ability to produce excellent content.
Edit - I have begun to truly admire how he seeks to learn new concepts. I wish I really had his enthusiasm to learn.
He is a stellar and practiced conversationalist who always works to bring out the best of his partner.
@codegeek98 Certainly! He has earned a name for not only a conversationist, but also for a great interviewer!
The short answer - and the best - is : fairly late writings (noted at a late date, if not actually written later than the last of the texts accepted as of apostolic origin), i.e. those that did not make it into the Catholic canon (list) of texts used for the Liturgies. Many of the better types (and those frequently used in Catholic circles) are still found in the listings associated with The Fathers, or used in various traditions .. e.g. of scholarly or pastoral use, The Protoevangelium of James, The Acts of Paul and Thecla, The Gospel and Acts of Thomas, others are more like modern popular 'novels' of the 'Ben Hur' or 'The Robe' types, as in The Assumption, Letter of Pontius Pilate, Apocalypse of Moses, etc.
These and other early Christian texts - specifically or incidentally not included in the term 'all scripture' can be found online (free) at New Advent - Catholic Encyclopedia - Fathers. These include some texts that could have made it into the Canon of the Catholic Holy Bible, 1 Clement, Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas, Liturgy of James, Didache .. but were not sufficiently widely known, used, or listed (the current Apocalypse in the Catholic list of Scripture very nearly did not make it into the list for the same reasons, but familiarity in some the oldest or most respect 'Sees' like Rome, Alexandria, Antioch seem to have won the day, and Hebrews also had a bit of bumpy ride, along with 2 Peter and Jude).
The division of Gnostic (mystical, sectarian, or occult knowledge) and Catholic (creedal, liturgical, common use) types was not always as clear-cut as history (or rather as historians) may like to present it; as present within the Catholic Church until the Reformation, i.e. the Saints' Lives (Perpetua and Felicity, Barlaam and Josephat, Sergius and Bacchus, Magdelene, Nicholas or George or Martin or Monica), the mystics (Novatian's Concerning the Trinity, Gertrude of Helfta's 'Insinuationes divinae pietatis', Julian of Norwich 'Revelations of Divine Love'); and even today .. requiring approval of the local Ordinary, the Holy Office (now a Dicastery), or a reigning Sovereign Pontiff (aka the Pope, cf the slightly dubious 'Divine Mercy' devotion of Faustina Kowalaska) .. and such like ....
Keep the Faith; tell the truth, shame the devil, and let the demons shriek.
God bless. ;o)
This was a wonderful podcast. Thank you for the class you delivered though your work and letting her speak on the topic.
One fundamental reason why these early gospels inc the gospel of Magdalene were cast aside, is I believe that they taught Jesus was born to show us God is Love and the love is the way of life; NOT the deviant idea (mostly from Paul & the early Roman Church that Jesus just came to die and save us from our sins - as in the Creed.
James Tabor wrote a fascinating book called the Jesus Dynasty that talks about these gospels. Very interesting read.
I also feel Alex was amazing in his performance as a professional listener. I think the reason he may have come across looking concerned is because he was thinking deeply about the conversation.
It's always impressive to see the resemblance between the bagavat gita and the early christian gospels. About the non duality and indivisibility of all being from god.
I really like this! Academics need more outlets for what they find, and so for you to platform them are great :D
I hope to listen to more of you & guests with not only the historical approach but how there might be relevant topics that are current such as politics, culture, society overall.
Alex, I found her book in a small library in New Mexico. I was only a teenager at the time. It was one of my first reads other than the bible.
Please have on Thomas W. Clark. He's the founder of The Center for Naturalism, and coined the term "Generic Subjective Continuity" (Sam Harris did a podcast episode on it). Tom speaks on consciousness, atheism, determinism, death, morality, AI, and other philosophical topics. He will be in an upcoming interview with Sam's wife, Annaka Harris.
great conversation. more please. I studied much of what you are discussing and now remembering so much of my journey through university after university.....driven to know more....I am being refreshed later now in life.....I am a lover of the mystics, the teachers...ah
I needed this so much....the Salome ( spelling) with Jesus on the couch....where did you come from... the humanity not divided to man woman....omg....there it is....we come from the light......