I own a Kahr, Glock, and have owned the S&W and I will say that I always shoot the Kahr way better than any other pistol I have! I love the feel, grip angle and the trigger is just sweet and smooth! The Kahr pistol is so underrated! I will own more in the future!!!
Should bring up the triggers too, because there's a big difference in feel of a smooth metal trigger with a safe smooth double-action style trigger, and glock style which has takeup with no resistance, then a hard break and is plastic with a dingus.
Mr. Moon Thank You for the video I remember reading an interview you did with Massad Ayoob "The House of Kahrs" about Yourself, your love for handguns and how you designed the Kahr. So I bought the P9 for that reason. And to this day it is the most accurate of all the single stack 9mm handguns that I own. I don't know why it doesn't get the recognition it deserves. Thank You again for designing an Awesome handgun and creating an Awesome Handgun Company.
I was 16yrs old in 1996 and didn't care much about handguns. I seen a Kahr k9. I knew it was something special. Now I'm 43 and bought a CW9, I was so impressed I immediately went on the hunt for a K9. I found and bought it sight unseen. It was everything I hoped it would be. I've also owned the Shield, Glock 43. I sold both of them. The Kahr K9 is on another level in all aspects. Even a eye of an untrained 16yr old kid in the 90's could see. Now the 43yr old with an extensive background in mechanical engineering and firearms appreciates even more.
Thank you Mr. Moon for the comparisons. I have owned a P9 and CM9 for five years and they have become my favorite EDC guns. The P9 is my very comfortable to carry and shoot. The trigger is outstanding for a every day carry system. Your ownership of the company is also a American success story that attracts me to Kahr. Outstanding Sir!
While this is filled with a lot of technical specs from a design viewpoint, it does a good job of showing considerations for a carry that most people would overlook. I hadn't realized the P9 was actually more comparable to other choices on the market in size, weight, barrel and capacity. Nice overview.
You know, I was contemplating trying out a Kahr but what really sold me was when you went through the velocity charts. It was not that the Kahr was getting higher velocities. It was that you were honest about the 124 grain Buffalo Bore result where the Glock 43 had a higher velocity by 2 fps. I work in the forensic engineering business, not as an engineer, but as a cost estimator for the engineering products, however I work with engineers daily. You put out data like an engineer, even the data that may challenge your position. That tells me the Kahr is built by people serious about engineering. I've been carrying a SW 1911 Performance Center 9mm daily. I'm going to find a P9 and try it out.
I bought a used CM9 about a month ago always wanted one. I wasn't wrong love it surprisingly accurate at 30 and 40 feet with 2 an half inch groups that's a keeper it's a 10 year old gun in like new condition inside and out. Very happy with it and something nobody brings up it's simple and clean design it's the best looking small 9 on the market
I own the P9, PM9 and a P380. I agree 100% with him on all these issues! The Kahr P series pistols are great carry guns. Very high quality firearms and I have found them to be 100% reliable. The bore axis and grip angle on these guns is awesome!
I just picked up my first Massachusetts compliant P9. That Kahr was willing to take on the expense of developing and producing MA compliant versions of both the P9 and PM9 says a lot about the company. Thank you Mr Moon.
Although I own and like Kahr pistols, had less issues with S&W and Glock firearms than Kahr pistols. My Kahr MK40 from 1999 been very reliable and accurate for its small size. For the price you pay for a premium Kahr firearms, could offer a lifetime warranty like some other manufactures which some are less than half the price of the Kahr MK9. Buying a handgun is like buying clothing, if you take a small shirt you don't buy a size 3X, buy what feels good to you and what you shoot best. Long as the firearm is reliable all that matters to me and regardless of manufacture or model, if not reliable am just wasting my time and money. Those chronograph test most of those velocity numbers are close and insignificant, if the there's100-200 fps or more difference than there would be a significant difference between the firearms. At least from my experience with Kahr premium line pistols they are well made and overall quality is better than the Glock or S&W pistols, but is also significant more expensive than the Glock 43 or S&W Shield.
I have owned a p 380, cw9, P9 and an MK 9. The P9 is the only one I still own but I've never had any with any of said pistols. Every time someone gets a lemon they figure companies bad I don't get it. No matter how well made a gun as they are not infallible tools they very much can have malfunctions. And things can slip through quality control no matter how good it is. I love these guns
I agree with Mr. Moon @9:30 in the video I’ve seen reviews of the Shield and the Glock 43 that compare them to the Kahr pm9. Great Video and an Awesome Firearm in my opinion Mr. Moon.
I have a pm9 I love it!! It's beautiful color too I have the two tone. It's a great gun I like the cm9 too I also tried to buy a pm40 from a local gun shop but the guy wouldn't sell it to me cuz he wanted it. Much respect Kahr !! Ps I'm thinking of buying a cw9 as well ❤ great guns awesome triggers
Justin, you make an excellent product that has improved a great deal since I bought my first K9 in the year they were introduced. While I think your emphasis on velocity in this video may have been a bit misplaced, I do think that in my experience, your premium pistols do have better barrels than the competition. In a recent accuracy test I did at 25 yards with the Shield, a Glock 43, a Kahr CW9 and a Kahr P9, the P9 shot significantly tighter groups. I will credit the barrel with this, because the P9 beat the CW9 rather badly in my tests. However, I considered all of the pistols to be adequate for their intended purpose. I just enjoy the extra confidence that comes with knowing my P9 will hit, even at 50 yards, if it needs to, and that alone for me justifies the price difference, not to mention two extra magazines included. But I do think you are missing the almost perfect "do-it-all" compact CCW 9mm, and the shame of it is that you used to make it. I'm speaking of the Kahr P9 Covert, which you dropped after only four years. I've been carrying one since 2004, and I wish to hell you would offer it again. Perhaps it didn't sell back then, but I think it would today. There is such a thing as being right too soon. The P9 Covert was perfect in that you could (and I do) carry it perfectly in all but the tightest pocket, like a PM9, but you had the full time benefit of the longer barrel and sight radius, and just by inserting a factory 7 round magazine with the extended basepad, you had a Kahr P9 with enough grip to draw properly from a holster in the waistband. I also carried it in a side pocket of my Kevlar vest under my shirt as deep backup when I was a police officer. To do this, I had to qualify with it on our duty gun course of fire out to 25 yards. This presented no problem whatsoever. This gun was an absolutely brilliant design on your part. You solved a problem in 2002 that Glock has still not got sorted out 15 years later. Maybe one day they will figure out how to make single stack 7 round magazine so that one does not have to resort to iffy aftermarket patches to get increased capacity. You figured that one out a long time ago. My P9 Covert is also easier to rack the slide on than the PM9s and CW9s I've tried, has what seems to be a larger ejection port, and I have NEVER experienced a failure of any kind with it in many thousands of rounds fired. I teach CCW classes, and of course all my students ask what I am carrying. I tell them, but in the same breath I have to tell them it is no longer available. This is sad. BRING BACK THE P9 COVERT, Please!
Mr. Moon et al. While your pistols came just before my time, many of the shooters I looked up to loved your pistols and passed on the Kahr mystique. What drove me away from your guns was the lack of the covert line when I entered the market. Years later, I finally rediscovered Kahrs for myself, enjoying a good bit of experience behind your PM9, TP9, K9, and, after an agonizing search, K40 covert. I am a firm believer in your approach to pistol engineering irrespective of some $250 bargain online, but wish my faith was more fully rewarded. I have three Kahrs on the table for review this year and while I have lots to gush about, being forced to choose between superb Corvettized Smart Cars, excellent Corvettized crossovers, and superior-but-no-longer-supported Corvettes is cause for discontent. Keep on making great guns, but if the cnc machine gets bored, consider producing a limited run of K9 Coverts... some of us have been waiting a very long time for perfection.
Can you do a video of testing these pistols and the ammunition you chose shooting into ballistic gel? To show if this slight velocity difference makes a significant difference in performance of the velocity differences.
Cecil Williams That's the point I was hoping to make by pointing out the miniscule difference in velocity that the performance in the end won't make a difference. Even the lowest velocity on their chart is faster than anyone could outrun! 😋
It’s easier to outrun a shot that is more likely to be less accurate. A longer polygonal barrel + tighter bore axis = more accurate shot placement especially in follow up shots. This wasn’t demonstrated and was implied in minuscules....
Never did care for a single action pistol. I'll stick with my 3 Sigs even though they are much bigger and heavier. THANK YOU for the very nice informative video.
You said "J-P-H" instead of JHP lol. But either way love kahr! Best DOA trigger I have ever felt and the people that argue the quality or ease of carry have never actually owned and shot one. I own S&w, glock, ruger, colt, sig etc... but they all serve different purposes.. he's not arguing the quality/legacy of glock or S&W .. he's talking about concealed carry and he is absolutely right! Every kahr I own is carryable pm9 cm9 p380.
Thanks for responding! So it's not recommended, but still possible, in very limited use? One of my local gun stores got in a shipment of Speer Gold Dot 115 grain +P+ for a really good price so i was considering buying a box for concealed carry.
Seems really disingenuous to me that you are trying to make people who may not know much about firearms think that a 30fps difference in velocity makes any practical difference at all. I came across this video because i was researching the P9-2. This video honestly makes me reconsider buying any Kahr at all.
I own a G43 and a CM9, this vid just shows the G43 is the best. The G43 has the same grip height as the PM9 which you try to hide with your hand when showing and and by having the mag extension on the G43. Instead of making this vid you should be making improvements to the PM/CM9, its a good pistol but needs some improvements. The G43 is the best small 9mm hands down,,,
some blow hard statistics. all within 50f/s is not really grounds for arguing superiority. Moon please redesign the magazine so "JPH" rounds(and every other type) don't just walk out or literally fall out if mag carried in pocket. Since all the bigger more successful gun makers are now making a II version of popular carry guns maybe you should at least revisit your low quality magazine design and appearance.
I own a Kahr cw380 nothing but problems, 1200 rds it is a “Jam O Matic” of every kind. How is this company still in business?? Too many choices that will run right out of the box . These shoot great , feel great, look great, BUT ARE NOT RELIABLE 😡 Build a damn gun that’s reliable or pack it in Mr. Moon 😏
Kris 9mm The springs "New in the box" are extremely stiff. Kahr suggests a 200 round "Break-in". Though you may not believe in. I won't carry any gun I own until I've put 800-1000 rounds through the gun. Not to break-in the gun. But to break-in myself with that gun. be it a Kahr, Glock, FNH, Walther, Springfield, Smith and Wesson, and so on. I will say that this minor difference in velocity between these pistols is pointless though. I love my Kahr pistols. but the full reset of the trigger is not for everyone. I think they're trying to keep their name in the market that is being swarmed by other competitors.
Raging Realist I know that and still doesn't make a diff. Kahr pistols only sell when every single stack gun is out of stock. FFL don't even stock them because they don't move.
Kris 9mm maybe in your area. Local gun shops in my area keep a few in stock. Obviously you won't find them in plentiful numbers like all the "tacticool" guns that people flock to because of the tacticool RUclips channels. But you'd be surprised how many people actually carry a Kahr over it's competitors. I'll carry my CW9 over the G43 or Shield any day. My personal favorite is my K40 that I bought a decade ago. Though that fact I mentioned earlier about more people carrying Kahr than you think is about 90% the value series and not the premium series. in that case I side with you. Most people would rather pay $400 for a G43 over $700+ for a P9. Only P9 I own was bought used for $350. otherwise I'd suggest the value series pistols. half the price for the same quality.
Yeah, this was a little stupid. Guy didn't seem very convinced with what he was saying either. I love Kahr firearms and Desert Eagles, own them.. but this was painful to watch lol
I own a Kahr, Glock, and have owned the S&W and I will say that I always shoot the Kahr way better than any other pistol I have! I love the feel, grip angle and the trigger is just sweet and smooth! The Kahr pistol is so underrated! I will own more in the future!!!
Should bring up the triggers too, because there's a big difference in feel of a smooth metal trigger with a safe smooth double-action style trigger, and glock style which has takeup with no resistance, then a hard break and is plastic with a dingus.
Mr. Moon Thank You for the video I remember reading an interview you did with Massad Ayoob "The House of Kahrs" about Yourself, your love for handguns and how you designed the Kahr. So I bought the P9 for that reason. And to this day it is the most accurate of all the single stack 9mm handguns that I own. I don't know why it doesn't get the recognition it deserves. Thank You again for designing an Awesome handgun and creating an Awesome Handgun Company.
I was 16yrs old in 1996 and didn't care much about handguns. I seen a Kahr k9. I knew it was something special. Now I'm 43 and bought a CW9, I was so impressed I immediately went on the hunt for a K9. I found and bought it sight unseen. It was everything I hoped it would be. I've also owned the Shield, Glock 43. I sold both of them. The Kahr K9 is on another level in all aspects. Even a eye of an untrained 16yr old kid in the 90's could see. Now the 43yr old with an extensive background in mechanical engineering and firearms appreciates even more.
I have to agree. When it comes to concealed carry its not a hobby, it's truly a decision your life may depend on.
Thank you Mr. Moon for the comparisons. I have owned a P9 and CM9 for five years and they have become my favorite EDC guns. The P9 is my very comfortable to carry and shoot. The trigger is outstanding for a every day carry system. Your ownership of the company is also a American success story that attracts me to Kahr. Outstanding Sir!
While this is filled with a lot of technical specs from a design viewpoint, it does a good job of showing considerations for a carry that most people would overlook. I hadn't realized the P9 was actually more comparable to other choices on the market in size, weight, barrel and capacity. Nice overview.
Right on, Mr. Moon. I have been a strong advocate of your pistols since 2010. I wear that hat too.
You know, I was contemplating trying out a Kahr but what really sold me was when you went through the velocity charts. It was not that the Kahr was getting higher velocities. It was that you were honest about the 124 grain Buffalo Bore result where the Glock 43 had a higher velocity by 2 fps. I work in the forensic engineering business, not as an engineer, but as a cost estimator for the engineering products, however I work with engineers daily. You put out data like an engineer, even the data that may challenge your position. That tells me the Kahr is built by people serious about engineering. I've been carrying a SW 1911 Performance Center 9mm daily. I'm going to find a P9 and try it out.
I bought a used CM9 about a month ago always wanted one. I wasn't wrong love it surprisingly accurate at 30 and 40 feet with 2 an half inch groups that's a keeper it's a 10 year old gun in like new condition inside and out. Very happy with it and something nobody brings up it's simple and clean design it's the best looking small 9 on the market
I own the P9, PM9 and a P380. I agree 100% with him on all these issues! The Kahr P series pistols are great carry guns. Very high quality firearms and I have found them to be 100% reliable. The bore axis and grip angle on these guns is awesome!
I just picked up my first Massachusetts compliant P9. That Kahr was willing to take on the expense of developing and producing MA compliant versions of both the P9 and PM9 says a lot about the company. Thank you Mr Moon.
I LOVE my Kahr PM9. There isn’t anything better for me.
Thank you for this informative video and thank you for making
The PM9 available in MA. Kenny
How about a flush fit mag.
Although I own and like Kahr pistols, had less issues with S&W and Glock firearms than Kahr pistols. My Kahr MK40 from 1999 been very reliable and accurate for its small size. For the price you pay for a premium Kahr firearms, could offer a lifetime warranty like some other manufactures which some are less than half the price of the Kahr MK9. Buying a handgun is like buying clothing, if you take a small shirt you don't buy a size 3X, buy what feels good to you and what you shoot best. Long as the firearm is reliable all that matters to me and regardless of manufacture or model, if not reliable am just wasting my time and money. Those chronograph test most of those velocity numbers are close and insignificant, if the there's100-200 fps or more difference than there would be a significant difference between the firearms. At least from my experience with Kahr premium line pistols they are well made and overall quality is better than the Glock or S&W pistols, but is also significant more expensive than the Glock 43 or S&W Shield.
I have owned a p 380, cw9, P9 and an MK 9. The P9 is the only one I still own but I've never had any with any of said pistols. Every time someone gets a lemon they figure companies bad I don't get it. No matter how well made a gun as they are not infallible tools they very much can have malfunctions. And things can slip through quality control no matter how good it is. I love these guns
I agree with Mr. Moon @9:30 in the video I’ve seen reviews of the Shield and the Glock 43 that compare them to the Kahr pm9. Great Video and an Awesome Firearm in my opinion Mr. Moon.
Love Justin. He’s a solid dude
I have a pm9 I love it!! It's beautiful color too I have the two tone. It's a great gun I like the cm9 too I also tried to buy a pm40 from a local gun shop but the guy wouldn't sell it to me cuz he wanted it. Much respect Kahr !! Ps I'm thinking of buying a cw9 as well ❤ great guns awesome triggers
Just wish kahr magazines were double stack or held mire then. 6,7 and 8 rounds
Well done
I handled a K9 over the weekend and I'll have to agree that your pistols are higher quality than a Glock or S&W.
I've tried several pistols as my pocket carry but i found my PM9 as the one i would carry always.
You might want to get a Ransom Rest and also compare accuracy.
Justin, you make an excellent product that has improved a great deal since I bought my first K9 in the year they were introduced. While I think your emphasis on velocity in this video may have been a bit misplaced, I do think that in my experience, your premium pistols do have better barrels than the competition. In a recent accuracy test I did at 25 yards with the Shield, a Glock 43, a Kahr CW9 and a Kahr P9, the P9 shot significantly tighter groups. I will credit the barrel with this, because the P9 beat the CW9 rather badly in my tests. However, I considered all of the pistols to be adequate for their intended purpose. I just enjoy the extra confidence that comes with knowing my P9 will hit, even at 50 yards, if it needs to, and that alone for me justifies the price difference, not to mention two extra magazines included.
But I do think you are missing the almost perfect "do-it-all" compact CCW 9mm, and the shame of it is that you used to make it. I'm speaking of the Kahr P9 Covert, which you dropped after only four years. I've been carrying one since 2004, and I wish to hell you would offer it again. Perhaps it didn't sell back then, but I think it would today. There is such a thing as being right too soon.
The P9 Covert was perfect in that you could (and I do) carry it perfectly in all but the tightest pocket, like a PM9, but you had the full time benefit of the longer barrel and sight radius, and just by inserting a factory 7 round magazine with the extended basepad, you had a Kahr P9 with enough grip to draw properly from a holster in the waistband. I also carried it in a side pocket of my Kevlar vest under my shirt as deep backup when I was a police officer. To do this, I had to qualify with it on our duty gun course of fire out to 25 yards. This presented no problem whatsoever.
This gun was an absolutely brilliant design on your part. You solved a problem in 2002 that Glock has still not got sorted out 15 years later. Maybe one day they will figure out how to make single stack 7 round magazine so that one does not have to resort to iffy aftermarket patches to get increased capacity. You figured that one out a long time ago. My P9 Covert is also easier to rack the slide on than the PM9s and CW9s I've tried, has what seems to be a larger ejection port, and I have NEVER experienced a failure of any kind with it in many thousands of rounds fired.
I teach CCW classes, and of course all my students ask what I am carrying. I tell them, but in the same breath I have to tell them it is no longer available. This is sad.
BRING BACK THE P9 COVERT, Please!
Hi Tom, we do not plan to bring it back at this point.
Yeah, i figured. Looks like my next Covert will involve a P9 and a hacksaw, lol.
Mr. Moon et al. While your pistols came just before my time, many of the shooters I looked up to loved your pistols and passed on the Kahr mystique. What drove me away from your guns was the lack of the covert line when I entered the market. Years later, I finally rediscovered Kahrs for myself, enjoying a good bit of experience behind your PM9, TP9, K9, and, after an agonizing search, K40 covert. I am a firm believer in your approach to pistol engineering irrespective of some $250 bargain online, but wish my faith was more fully rewarded. I have three Kahrs on the table for review this year and while I have lots to gush about, being forced to choose between superb Corvettized Smart Cars, excellent Corvettized crossovers, and superior-but-no-longer-supported Corvettes is cause for discontent. Keep on making great guns, but if the cnc machine gets bored, consider producing a limited run of K9 Coverts... some of us have been waiting a very long time for perfection.
Hi Matt, thank you for your advice and suggestion.
@@KahrFirearmsGroup i agree im getting a used p9 and a grip from a gun store and im gonna hacksaw it myself. Completely agree with Tom.
Is the tp9 longer. I just got one and I love it.
Wish he’d make an aluminum frame k9
Thank you for making a video
OK I seen you used your Pm model of pistol which is your top of the line so why not compare it to the performance center shield
or a xds or pps
Can you do a video of testing these pistols and the ammunition you chose shooting into ballistic gel? To show if this slight velocity difference makes a significant difference in performance of the velocity differences.
Cecil Williams
That's the point I was hoping to make by pointing out the miniscule difference in velocity that the performance in the end won't make a difference. Even the lowest velocity on their chart is faster than anyone could outrun! 😋
It’s easier to outrun a shot that is more likely to be less accurate. A longer polygonal barrel + tighter bore axis = more accurate shot placement especially in follow up shots.
This wasn’t demonstrated and was implied in minuscules....
Never did care for a single action pistol. I'll stick with my 3 Sigs even though they are much bigger and heavier. THANK YOU for the very nice informative video.
You said "J-P-H" instead of JHP lol. But either way love kahr! Best DOA trigger I have ever felt and the people that argue the quality or ease of carry have never actually owned and shot one. I own S&w, glock, ruger, colt, sig etc... but they all serve different purposes.. he's not arguing the quality/legacy of glock or S&W .. he's talking about concealed carry and he is absolutely right! Every kahr I own is carryable pm9 cm9 p380.
Since you tested +P+ ammunition, are Kahr's rated for it? Your website says it's rated for +P but there's no mention of +P+
Hi Tommy, we do not recommend the use of any +P+.
Thanks for responding! So it's not recommended, but still possible, in very limited use? One of my local gun stores got in a shipment of Speer Gold Dot 115 grain +P+ for a really good price so i was considering buying a box for concealed carry.
We would recommend using none, not even in limited use. Any damage caused by using that type of ammunition would not be covered under warranty.
Understood... so the testing of the +P+ ammunition in this video was for demonstration purposes only then?
Yes.
Seems really disingenuous to me that you are trying to make people who may not know much about firearms think that a 30fps difference in velocity makes any practical difference at all. I came across this video because i was researching the P9-2. This video honestly makes me reconsider buying any Kahr at all.
I own a G43 and a CM9, this vid just shows the G43 is the best. The G43 has the same grip height as the PM9 which you try to hide with your hand when showing and and by having the mag extension on the G43.
Instead of making this vid you should be making improvements to the PM/CM9, its a good pistol but needs some improvements.
The G43 is the best small 9mm hands down,,,
some blow hard statistics. all within 50f/s is not really grounds for arguing superiority.
Moon please redesign the magazine so "JPH" rounds(and every other type) don't just walk out or literally fall out if mag carried in pocket. Since all the bigger more successful gun makers are now making a II version of popular carry guns maybe you should at least revisit your low quality magazine design and appearance.
fix your PM9 mags lol. Single stack Glock mag dont have a problem.
I own a Kahr cw380 nothing but problems, 1200 rds it is a “Jam O Matic” of every kind. How is this company still in business?? Too many choices that will run right out of the box . These shoot great , feel great, look great, BUT ARE NOT RELIABLE 😡 Build a damn gun that’s reliable or pack it in Mr. Moon 😏
Do u still have your cw380?
That's if you can get one of your guns to work right
I have only one Kahr pistol, but have never had any issues at all.
Kris 9mm
The springs "New in the box" are extremely stiff. Kahr suggests a 200 round "Break-in". Though you may not believe in. I won't carry any gun I own until I've put 800-1000 rounds through the gun. Not to break-in the gun. But to break-in myself with that gun. be it a Kahr, Glock, FNH, Walther, Springfield, Smith and Wesson, and so on.
I will say that this minor difference in velocity between these pistols is pointless though.
I love my Kahr pistols. but the full reset of the trigger is not for everyone. I think they're trying to keep their name in the market that is being swarmed by other competitors.
Raging Realist I know that and still doesn't make a diff. Kahr pistols only sell when every single stack gun is out of stock. FFL don't even stock them because they don't move.
Kris 9mm
maybe in your area. Local gun shops in my area keep a few in stock. Obviously you won't find them in plentiful numbers like all the "tacticool" guns that people flock to because of the tacticool RUclips channels. But you'd be surprised how many people actually carry a Kahr over it's competitors. I'll carry my CW9 over the G43 or Shield any day. My personal favorite is my K40 that I bought a decade ago.
Though that fact I mentioned earlier about more people carrying Kahr than you think is about 90% the value series and not the premium series. in that case I side with you. Most people would rather pay $400 for a G43 over $700+ for a P9.
Only P9 I own was bought used for $350. otherwise I'd suggest the value series pistols. half the price for the same quality.
Why no mention of trigger??????
Yeah, this was a little stupid. Guy didn't seem very convinced with what he was saying either. I love Kahr firearms and Desert Eagles, own them.. but this was painful to watch lol
I own a Kahr and I agree this is stupid.
This is just terrible!