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Great discussion! I feel like climbing is unique because many of the people known to be the best boulderers and sport climbers in the world have no interest in climbing competitions at all. I don't think other sports have this distinction (it's not like there are Top-5 NBA-caliber players who only play pickup). So there’s this strange question of whether people who win comps are really the best overall climbers. But that argument feels pointless and even goes against the spirit of climbing, which is all about community, support, and pushing yourself. It’s better to think about comp climbing as its own sport that values competition and the notion of clear winners and losers through a point system-even if it shares many similarities with outdoor climbing.
It depends on what your philosophy of climbing is-is the goal of climbing to climb the hardest thing, or climb whatever is in front of you without falling? It’s this difference in attitudes really-outdoors you have to make choices, spend money and hike and take long trips to go to a single boulder, so “climb whatever is in front of you” matters much less. But I think in an ideal world, we’d evaluate who has the best technical understanding and is the strongest by evaluating them on all sorts of problems, and seeing how quickly they can master it. So the disconnect honestly makes sense to me.
Are there really a lot of very top climbers not competing in comps though? There is Seb Bouin, yes, but other than that? Jakob and Adam compete in comps and they do win lead comps.
@@mx2000 I think so. Just pick a metric -- say the list of men that have climbed V16+ -- and see how many of them do comps. Maybe half? Even some of those that do compete, like Shawn Raboutou, do so intermittently. You could make the same argument with the list of women that have climbed V14+ or for hard sport climbing grades as well. There are many very good climbers that could presumably be competitive in comp climbing that seem to have little interest. Even the fact that Seb doesn't do comps is telling. In what other sport does a consensus Top 5 athlete not formally compete against his peers? Magnus Carlsen in chess comes to mind as he is the #1 player, but refuses to play in the World Championship. But he still competes in other tournaments. This isn't a new phenomenon in climbing either. Comp climbing has grown recently, but there was a comp scene back when Daniel Woods and friends were in their prime, or when Sharma was establishing 5.15b, and they largely didn't compete. I just think it speaks to the fact that in other sports there is like the ONE official way to compete (ex. the NBA) whereas in climbing the community is split between people who like to "formally" compete in comps and others who feel like the ultimate form of competition is competing with yourself to improve, or to compete to establish the first V18 or whatever, or that competition itself is antithetical to climbing and it's more about the vibes, and healthy lifestyle, and community, and environmentalism. That's why in my opinion comp and non-comp climbing are kind of different sports: different skill sets, different attitudes and philosophies, different training regimes, a different set of climbers, etc.
Adam and Jakob would destroy anyone in lead if it was a single discipline, no chance to the others. The fact that they have to spend time working on cordination boulders at their age not only affects their health as it reduces their power for lead specifically. To be fair, it should never be combined and 3 different disciplines because the 3 are so different
In the past, gym climbing routes were more like rock routes. I think the modern style has diverged so much that you can't specialise and be amazing at both.
I think there are a select few elite climbers that can transition easily between plastic and rock. Janja for one I feel can send a 9b+ if she gives it more time. On the other hand, guys like Simon Lorenzi, who has sent V17s, barely gets podium in the World Cup circuit (when he does compete).
I work in a bouldering gym and i personally dont like the shift from "traditional" to more Dynamic routesetting. Old man yelling at clouds i guess (im 29)
Respectfully disagree with Tom about the comp kids going outside. When this generation "retire" from indoor climbing, going to be a bunch of total crushers when they move to real rock.
@jamrollz Well, Tom doesn't really say they will be bad outdoors on everything. I think his very last point was more interesting: Will the upcoming gens of comp kids even be interested in 'retirement" on rock?
I disagree with Tom. The new climbers have been brought up with the combined format, so they are better at it. If next Olympics has separate boulder and lead events, then those that specialise in a single principle have a better chance. Ondra has a better chance if only competing in the lead event and doesn't have to worry about hard coordination boulders.
Both Roby and Sorato or Ai among women are basically lead climbers who started doing bouldering! They don't need much time to switch between disciplines
He said that younger climbers have been climbing this style their whole lives so they are better at it in the first 2 minutes. He is also speaking to how the olympics are classified right now, not if they separate lead events. It sounds like you agree with Tom
Bouldering never saw the strong outdoor guys in competition (mellow crew f.e.) And with the current Gibbon Ninja Warrior Parkour competition it will never happen. Same is happening in lead , everything needs to be flashy and commercially sellable nowadays , hence the time limitation on lead climbing which didn't exist in origin but was introduced AND shortened to a mere 6 minutes .... call me Statler or Waldorf , i don't care.
Toby and Anraku are also (by virtue of their age) stronger/lighter, more explosive, recover faster, etc. As comp climbing becomes more gymnastic, you're going to see ever younger climbers, and ever more gymnastic problems, both in bouldering and lead, that suit those climbers. An occasional phenom like Janja who will pass the normal expiration date, but mostly a regular churning of young phenoms and people leaving the scene by 25-30 to climb outside and save their joints. I'm an older (45) rec climber who leads in the 5.12s but suck so bad at indoor bouldering I don't even bother with it anymore. It's too frustrating, too dynamic, too hard on your joints (both from hard pulling and falling), there's too high of an injury risk, etc. Mad respect to people who are good at it, but I think the divide between sport and bouldering is widening, just like trad vs. sport has been for a while.
I don't think it's a strength thing at all. You're not considering the fact that Toby and Anraku grew up with the new comp style. Ondra, Schubert, Megos, etc, all grew up climbing and had plenty of comp experience while young, but the style was so totally different back then. Comp climbing is more about skill than strength. Don't get me wrong, these guys are still absurdly strong, but there are plenty of people out there who make these olympic climbers look weak on every relevant measure yet don't perform nearly as well in competitions, eg. Megos, Yves Gravelle.
@@LunicussOfficial Strength/weight ratio is part of it. Watch the recent video where Toby climbs a 9A+ without breaking a sweat - he's strong as hell and very light, similar to Megos. Nobody makes them look "weak" - you and I can bench press more than Ai Mori, but her pull strength / body weight is much higher. I do agree that there are fantastic outdoor climbers who underperform in comps because they don't train for comps. Megos or Seb Bouin might have been dominant had they focused all their energy on comp climbing. There are particular holds and setting "tricks" that young kids (especially those who can train around the world, spend months in Japan, etc.) have encountered many more times than old guys.
@@IronJohn755 Did you see Anraku struggle with the campus move that absolutely everyone else breezed past in the olympics? "Nobody makes them look "weak"" Go watch Yves Gravelle pull 1kg less than his bodyweight on a 4mm edge or do a 1-6-10 on the campus board, that will change your mind. "I do agree that there are fantastic outdoor climbers who underperform in comps because they don't train for comps" Right, so it's skill and not strength.
I dont think it represent some sea chnage in climbing because some guys that will be in their mid 30s at the next olympics wont be as competitive anymore. Thats what you would expect in any sport
Take your belay game to the next level. Petzl NEOX is an assisted blocking belay device for the gym and the crag. Ideal for lead climbing, it has an integrated wheel that allows you to smoothly and quickly pay out slack to the climber ➡ thestruggleclimbingshow.com/petzlneoxYT
Great discussion! I feel like climbing is unique because many of the people known to be the best boulderers and sport climbers in the world have no interest in climbing competitions at all. I don't think other sports have this distinction (it's not like there are Top-5 NBA-caliber players who only play pickup). So there’s this strange question of whether people who win comps are really the best overall climbers. But that argument feels pointless and even goes against the spirit of climbing, which is all about community, support, and pushing yourself. It’s better to think about comp climbing as its own sport that values competition and the notion of clear winners and losers through a point system-even if it shares many similarities with outdoor climbing.
I couldn't agree with you more! Outdoor climbing is so vastly different then competition climbing, it's silly to try and compare them
It depends on what your philosophy of climbing is-is the goal of climbing to climb the hardest thing, or climb whatever is in front of you without falling? It’s this difference in attitudes really-outdoors you have to make choices, spend money and hike and take long trips to go to a single boulder, so “climb whatever is in front of you” matters much less. But I think in an ideal world, we’d evaluate who has the best technical understanding and is the strongest by evaluating them on all sorts of problems, and seeing how quickly they can master it. So the disconnect honestly makes sense to me.
Are there really a lot of very top climbers not competing in comps though? There is Seb Bouin, yes, but other than that? Jakob and Adam compete in comps and they do win lead comps.
@@mx2000shawn raboutou and aidan roberts come to mind - as does will bosi, even though he comes from a comp background
@@mx2000 I think so. Just pick a metric -- say the list of men that have climbed V16+ -- and see how many of them do comps. Maybe half? Even some of those that do compete, like Shawn Raboutou, do so intermittently. You could make the same argument with the list of women that have climbed V14+ or for hard sport climbing grades as well. There are many very good climbers that could presumably be competitive in comp climbing that seem to have little interest. Even the fact that Seb doesn't do comps is telling. In what other sport does a consensus Top 5 athlete not formally compete against his peers? Magnus Carlsen in chess comes to mind as he is the #1 player, but refuses to play in the World Championship. But he still competes in other tournaments. This isn't a new phenomenon in climbing either. Comp climbing has grown recently, but there was a comp scene back when Daniel Woods and friends were in their prime, or when Sharma was establishing 5.15b, and they largely didn't compete. I just think it speaks to the fact that in other sports there is like the ONE official way to compete (ex. the NBA) whereas in climbing the community is split between people who like to "formally" compete in comps and others who feel like the ultimate form of competition is competing with yourself to improve, or to compete to establish the first V18 or whatever, or that competition itself is antithetical to climbing and it's more about the vibes, and healthy lifestyle, and community, and environmentalism. That's why in my opinion comp and non-comp climbing are kind of different sports: different skill sets, different attitudes and philosophies, different training regimes, a different set of climbers, etc.
Adam and Jakob would destroy anyone in lead if it was a single discipline, no chance to the others. The fact that they have to spend time working on cordination boulders at their age not only affects their health as it reduces their power for lead specifically. To be fair, it should never be combined and 3 different disciplines because the 3 are so different
In the past, gym climbing routes were more like rock routes. I think the modern style has diverged so much that you can't specialise and be amazing at both.
Jakob Schubert won an Olympic medal within 12 months of sending both 9c & V17. He does seem to be a bit of an outlier though
I think there are a select few elite climbers that can transition easily between plastic and rock. Janja for one I feel can send a 9b+ if she gives it more time.
On the other hand, guys like Simon Lorenzi, who has sent V17s, barely gets podium in the World Cup circuit (when he does compete).
I work in a bouldering gym and i personally dont like the shift from "traditional" to more Dynamic routesetting. Old man yelling at clouds i guess (im 29)
Respectfully disagree with Tom about the comp kids going outside.
When this generation "retire" from indoor climbing, going to be a bunch of total crushers when they move to real rock.
Agreed, Toby sent 8c as a 9yr old. Why say these comp kids be bad outdoors it boogles the mind.
@jamrollz Well, Tom doesn't really say they will be bad outdoors on everything. I think his very last point was more interesting: Will the upcoming gens of comp kids even be interested in 'retirement" on rock?
I disagree with Tom. The new climbers have been brought up with the combined format, so they are better at it. If next Olympics has separate boulder and lead events, then those that specialise in a single principle have a better chance. Ondra has a better chance if only competing in the lead event and doesn't have to worry about hard coordination boulders.
I agree. Ondras performance in lead was largely considered the best lead performance out of anyone.
Both Roby and Sorato or Ai among women are basically lead climbers who started doing bouldering! They don't need much time to switch between disciplines
He said that younger climbers have been climbing this style their whole lives so they are better at it in the first 2 minutes. He is also speaking to how the olympics are classified right now, not if they separate lead events. It sounds like you agree with Tom
@@HourRomanticist Yeah. If they'd been separate medals Adam would have won lead gold, with Jakob in silver
I wonder how many ppl think we should separate bouldering and lead comps more often. I’m neutral on this.
Bouldering never saw the strong outdoor guys in competition (mellow crew f.e.) And with the current Gibbon Ninja Warrior Parkour competition it will never happen. Same is happening in lead , everything needs to be flashy and commercially sellable nowadays , hence the time limitation on lead climbing which didn't exist in origin but was introduced AND shortened to a mere 6 minutes .... call me Statler or Waldorf , i don't care.
Toby and Anraku are also (by virtue of their age) stronger/lighter, more explosive, recover faster, etc. As comp climbing becomes more gymnastic, you're going to see ever younger climbers, and ever more gymnastic problems, both in bouldering and lead, that suit those climbers. An occasional phenom like Janja who will pass the normal expiration date, but mostly a regular churning of young phenoms and people leaving the scene by 25-30 to climb outside and save their joints.
I'm an older (45) rec climber who leads in the 5.12s but suck so bad at indoor bouldering I don't even bother with it anymore. It's too frustrating, too dynamic, too hard on your joints (both from hard pulling and falling), there's too high of an injury risk, etc. Mad respect to people who are good at it, but I think the divide between sport and bouldering is widening, just like trad vs. sport has been for a while.
I don't think it's a strength thing at all. You're not considering the fact that Toby and Anraku grew up with the new comp style. Ondra, Schubert, Megos, etc, all grew up climbing and had plenty of comp experience while young, but the style was so totally different back then.
Comp climbing is more about skill than strength. Don't get me wrong, these guys are still absurdly strong, but there are plenty of people out there who make these olympic climbers look weak on every relevant measure yet don't perform nearly as well in competitions, eg. Megos, Yves Gravelle.
@@LunicussOfficial Strength/weight ratio is part of it. Watch the recent video where Toby climbs a 9A+ without breaking a sweat - he's strong as hell and very light, similar to Megos. Nobody makes them look "weak" - you and I can bench press more than Ai Mori, but her pull strength / body weight is much higher. I do agree that there are fantastic outdoor climbers who underperform in comps because they don't train for comps. Megos or Seb Bouin might have been dominant had they focused all their energy on comp climbing. There are particular holds and setting "tricks" that young kids (especially those who can train around the world, spend months in Japan, etc.) have encountered many more times than old guys.
@@IronJohn755 Did you see Anraku struggle with the campus move that absolutely everyone else breezed past in the olympics?
"Nobody makes them look "weak""
Go watch Yves Gravelle pull 1kg less than his bodyweight on a 4mm edge or do a 1-6-10 on the campus board, that will change your mind.
"I do agree that there are fantastic outdoor climbers who underperform in comps because they don't train for comps"
Right, so it's skill and not strength.
@@LunicussOfficial You seem like a real dickhead.
I dont think it represent some sea chnage in climbing because some guys that will be in their mid 30s at the next olympics wont be as competitive anymore. Thats what you would expect in any sport
Honestly the divergence in setting from outdoor style is what's causing this
He's right, and it's a predictable result of the sport maturing and becoming more popular.
By 'young guns' i feel like you are referring to a small group of people and that doesnt really apply to young vomp climbers as a while
The olympics is now a Disney production.
Only if the keep that bad format , they need 1 medal for lead and one for bouldering
Anorexia Nervosa
Bring back proper climbing, not this parkour crap.