The Tyranny of Merit: What's Become of the Common Good? Dr Tharoor conversation with Michael Sandel
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- Опубликовано: 26 фев 2021
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What a great discussion! Since the Second World War, monetary wealth has become more important than the real human values of community, compassion and understanding for others. Competition has fostered a society of members for whom becoming 'better' than others has become the goal, not the health of 'collective common good', which we once enjoyed. It is not opportunity that Sandel opposes, but rather, the growing disparity caused by competition and meritocracy. We are taught to focus on our own 'success' and how we look to others (just look at all of the advertising which uses fear of not having/being enough, to sell its products), rather than on tolerance and understanding for our fellow human beings.
It's truly a remarkable discussion on the dark side of meritocracy. Excessive emphasis on merit takes away our inner humanity to relate to the public good. Humanity behaving as one extended family would be far better than the way it treats one another as winners and losers under market driven economy, poltitcs, and society.
Insightful observation.
Sandel's persuasive and composed framing of an argument is an absolute bliss ; Pinker and Ress Mogg are others who make listening pleasurable.
Dr. Tharoor has set a bar for politicians which is too high for anyone to breach. Sadly, he is known way too much for his English instead of his books. Writings and his deep thoughts.
No matter how good he writes or speaks, he'll always be remembered for the sycophant he is. Unless he wants to be remembered otherwise.
@@xyz.abc123 U have ruined this country with your viscous ideology!
All the things u have brought has made this country a Banana republic.......
Have u heard about the statement of chief justice of India about rape of minor
I always wonder when will that day come when you with your ideology of hatred will be thrown to Dustbin
@@BABA-ORUC1761 Well sir, my concern is also for the country. and I am not spewing hatred, all I am saying is if he keeps serving the self serving leadership of the congress he will be blamed for not speaking up in time. He will surely have my respect if G23 succeeds with him in reinventing congress. he is any day better than Raga but what does he do, defend raga in media interviews, what, is it not sycophancy? its high time we call spade a spade and a sycophant a sycophant.
Thank you so much Michael and Shashi for letting us know some ideas and thoughts from two different extremes.
I actually feel so very short of words that are actually required for praising you as well as for all your efforts that you actually make every time in sharing your very knowledge with all of us. 🙏
CRUX OF THE TALK:- Merit without humility is to be discouraged. It makes elite people believe that they belong to the top while others need to be helped. Instead a sense of solidarity, mutual respect and shared responsibilities should be encouraged in civic society. According to the talk, Our talent and hardwork plays a peripheral role, while right circumstances and good fortune play the central characters in achieving success (Generally it appears vica versa to successful people). Hence we (as a society) should decrease emphasis on meritocracy for competitive markets and should aim for equality of conditions in today's modern world.
What do you mean by humility? Who defines what it means?
@@supersmart671 Dictionary does.
Humility is the quality of not thinking that you are better than other people.
@@yashsinghchauhan5945 Whose dictionary, so the dictionary is the final authority?
@@supersmart671 All dictionaries will give us almost the same meaning of the word "Humility".
For Final authority part, Above session is a healthy discussion on possible improvements. We could be non-conclusive.
@@yashsinghchauhan5945 unless we figure out the fundamentals there is no point in discussing about concepts when there is no final authority to decide what it is. When each individual defines or redefines these concepts (virtues, vice, ...) it inevitably leads to conflict. Moral relativism is quite dangerous, I think that is the pivotal reason things don't work. I would suggest that you read "The book that made your world" by Vishal Mangalwadi
Thank you for bringing Michael Sandel he is one of great thinker, some of us couldn't afford to go to HLS but listening him no less.
Peter Mundackal: The range of Shashi's knowledge and his ability to put it across are truly amazing. I am lucky to have read a few of his books .
Lovely to hear Dr. Tharoorji talk!!
Awesome ..
To me 🤔a top talk show!!
👍👍
These two are amongst my favourite thinkers of all time. To see them share the stage is an absolute bliss. Wonderful discussion - very enlightening. Thank you for this!
Thanks for bringing this leading edge understanding to the commoners.
The most beloved thing of this debate is that both sides have a civilized way of talking.
When you wish to destroy the world, better to be civil. Thats the plan here
So indebted to Dr Shashi n his philosophies, every word he utters is a bliss to hear. Lots of respect🙏🙏
Shashi Tharoor is also indebted to sunanda Pushkar
Waiting for a Nobel prize for literature to Shashi
Stimulating discussion. Got thoroughly engrossed! Thank you sir.
Such a dignified exchange of thoughts and ideas! Food for thought - watching this rendered me humble and making me ponder over the marriage of civics and politics. It's powerful yet subtle!
Fascinating conversation. Gave me a food for thought re merit. But gladly Dr. Tharoor stood for most of us element the confusion & doubt created by Michael vis a vis merit :) Yes, merit is the key!
Sir, I am impressed by the presence or rather coming into being of your book. Way back in my schooldays when I was in senior classes and on the verge of passing out, I began to lose faith in my being meritorious. I passed out with very high marks but still a little behind from what it could ideally have been.
My merit increased in my view, but not in terms of number or rank. I went on and completed post-graduation. I was an MA but it mattered little. I didn't fail so much in life but vanished from other's thoughts as a successful individual. I am not regretful about what I did by choice. But it all was a rebellion against the tyranny of so called merit. When recently I saw your book on Kindle, I opted for a specimen. I am soon going to buy it.
But for the time being I am enjoying this interview of yours.
A thoroughly enjoyable and an educative discussion by two brilliant, sensible, practical, realistic, responsible and humble personalities. 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
I think the essence in answer to this discussion is given by following Bhagavad Gita verse..
विद्याविनयसम्पन्ने ब्राह्मणे गवि हस्तिनि |
शुनि चैव श्वपाके च पण्डिता: समदर्शिन: ||
BG 5.18: The truly learned, with the eyes of divine knowledge, see with equal vision a Brahmin, a cow, an elephant, a dog, and a dog-eater...
Meaning :The sign of divine knowledge is that it is accompanied by a sense of humility, while shallow bookish knowledge is accompanied with the pride of scholarship. ..
a truly learned person endowed with spiritual knowledge sees them all as eternal souls, and hence views them with an equal eye...
Beautiful & apt!
Participatory design of everything is how we act on it Dr. Shashi Tharoor not expert led talking down thank you very much ... You can facilitate and participate and regulate but there is no need to preach, do charity or work for others...
Just go & watch Michael Sandel's Harvard University lecture playlist. He's an amazing & engaging professor. He's given me a completely different perspective for seeing the society and being a moral human. ⚡⚡🙏🏻👍🏻
This exchange of ideas is amazing in the respect the speakers have for each other, the depth of conviction borne out of vastly different experience bases and the openness to be persuaded of a v different POV!
Having gone through michael sandal's book a couple of months ago and seeing this discussion it felt like revision of that insightful piece of content and addressed few things which I discovered in my first reading. Thanks to mr tharoor as well for asking good questions.
Two highly articulate and deep thinkers. We need more of this to edify and build on their ideas.
Lot of ideas seems to resemble with Bhagat Singh's essays. It's amazing how relevant his idea still is in the present times. Thank you so much Dr. Tharoor and Dr. Sandel for this enriching experience.
Hi! Could you please link me to these essays? Or suggest me the name of these essays?
@@anchitadua Hi!! you can read "Why I Am an Atheist". It comes with bunch of his other works also.
@@rohitbarnwal7 I read this work yesterday only. The one which talks about meritocracy, which one is it?
I vaguely remember him, mentioning about importance of labour be it mental labour or physical labour. He was critical of promoting mental labour as more meritocratic and rewarding. Also few lines around where he criticize how Tej Bahadur becoming viceroy instead of Irwin will make no difference for Indian society.
I think communism by itself critical of meritocracy in some way. So we can establish some connections there.
This was a very informative and enlightening discussion! Love from Delhi!
"Keiding'in vang Shashi Tharoor hi thusei thempen hintan te; vaihom jong hitia hi them dingin kagingcha lheh ae" . Thats my mother language(although not included in the 8th Schedule - which itself is a part of unequal opportunity since I cant use my mother language as part of my local language in state exams ) and Im Indian.
Tahchapa 💪
It's just bliss to be among such people who have such an amazing sort of Politics discourse...it's just inexplicable..esp. being a pol sc major student
Cannot believe 2 of the most erudite scholars😍 talking abt meritocracy...the opposite of meritocracy is not aristocracy but a real democracy.. beautiful words
In Indian context, humility is lacking in people who are high achievers. Taking an example of UPSC aspirants, you see, a lot of aspirants are inspired by the hubris and power that these positions carry just for the sake of that hubris and power itself. There is also this romantic view in society of the UPSC qualified people, they are heroes just for passing their exams. You would see people getting inspired by the actual work that IAS or IPS do. In India people remember who topped UPSC in what year but very few know what actual contribution they made in society. I'm not saying they didn't, but that's not the inspiration for most. That's my observation. Also, this looking down on the non achievers fills the void of caste superiority for many people. That is the reason why "study or sell vegetables" is something that's only said in India.
Everybody is not Shashi Tharoor…there are very few who have the power and the position look up and treat others less luckier than them in terms of gaining merit with respect and reverence which every person is entitled to. I would like to agree with Mr Michael that most people lose their humane qualities and misuse and abuse their power once they attain the same.
My favourite duo.
Love both❤️
The truth: any success boils down to a combination of privilege, luck, and merit. Merit is certainly important but it's frankly not even half the puzzle. I say this as someone who, like Mr. Tharoor, grew up constantly rewarded by an educational system that told me I was special, better than other people, because I outclassed most at certain skills of academic relevance. It was only upon getting a little older that I could look back objectively and see how, among other things, my parental income and education provided me with an environment that pretty much no one in this country has, barring a select few. Am I capable? I certainly believe so. But I am also acutely aware that so many other capable people were left behind by their circumstances, and the few underprivileged people that make their way to the top are used as a stick to beat the others with: if they could do it through their MERIT, why can't you?
Yes....you nailed it. Thank you.
A fascinating discussion- superbly conducted by Dr Tharoor..
Respect and love from Nagaland
Mr Shashi
Dr. Tharoor's example of the educated Indians just proves Dr. Sandel's point -- 98% of those came to the U.S. from the 50s through the 90s were the super educated ones who were able to score high on all the entrance exams. It was not the 'tired and hungry' immigrant. Hubris with that Indian segment is well masked with false humility and subtle braggadocia.
Michael Sandel is on fire with his book tour! I've seen a video of his everyday, including on Steve Paikin's Agenda.
Wish you A Very Happy Birthday Shashi Tharoor Sir. GOD BLESS YOU. 9/3/2021 TUESDAY.
Sandel did not write this book from the perspective of global politics - his case study is American Politics and ideologies and mainly a more specific study of Western meritrocracy. While some of the theories and propositions are universally applicable, interrupting him every two seconds doesn't prove that his arguments are invalid in an Indian/Political context. One writes what they know. He's a college professor writing with the desire to to strive towards an inspiration, an acknowledgement of disadvantage. For some who talks to a bunch of teenagers on a daily basis, this book stems from a place of 'The Common Good'.
While some could argue that his argument is naive, and it may as well be when you look at some of them from the lens of the deeply intertwined context of Indian class, caste, race and economy, there is merit in acknowledging some of them. When one writes what they know, it is a reflection of the society around them at that particular point of time and space in history. Change the latitude and longitude, context changes, the argument changes. The clothes you wear in Alaska will differ from the ones you wear in Goa. Please don't pounce on the guy.
Beautiful animation
Happiness is hearing you Dr. Tharoor...
Actually it’s not that being sympathetic towards a failed one but to consider the considerable common people. To Michael
But the final thought was quite acceptable as an international student in Canada.
I know people who are excluded from meritocratic list many times. But Michael has a point treating them as valuable towards their society. Meritocracy is then works for the successor.
❤️
Excellent Shashi sir.
A born leader.👌
I am reading Sandel's thoughts in my master's syllabus of Political science. Really delighted to see him !!!
I'm in ba pol sc ..but enjoy his thoughts very much
So the talk is for the meritocrats to remember they have climbed up the ladder not just because of their merit but also because of their luck and right circumstances, the need for humility from the part of the meritocrats and while acting out in humility they must not act in hubris nor look down on the people. The command of reason for humility from the aristocrats must stem from a categorical imperative that ‘humility is good in itself’ rather than from a hypothetical imperative that ‘we have become successful so we should show some humility to those who struggle’. Is that what he says?
The English subtitles are funny, hilarious. Did you guys use a free tool or some Hinglish team. And as the subtitles suggest I am watching and listening to Shashi 'Taru' and Michael 'Sandals'.
🤣
Michael is very right..infact he had pointed something we all have embedded right in our mi nds but cud not express or articulate it.meritocracy without the right spirit always bends the society against true progress for allm
Everytime I watch Sashi Sir video, I keep my notebook and pen with myself and write down the words he says in order to learn English and to have a good vocabulary.
@@diogenes4124 true
Hi❤️
Nice thoughts and considering Indian state, its already has 50% reservations and also Minorities Act to take care of any bad social behaviour as well.
Moot point is, why various actions for providing upliftment in society are not bounded by time frames and cycling of citizens out of the policy measures so that the ones below them in terms of merit can also get an opportunity for upliftment, and actually solve some societial issues.
Dr. Tharoor said that Mughal rulers looted India plundered Hindu Temples but kept the loot here and credited them that the loot was taken out India as the British did. Is Dr. Shashi Tharoor saying had if some robbed the bank and kept the cash with him here is vindicated? If it is so, where is Justice ?
My humble suggestion to dr Tharoor to analyse the social media comments , those who make it to prestigious institutions, secondly as one of the popular MP, can you suggest any study conducted by Govt or quasi Govt institutions , whether there is discrimination or kind attitude towards caste particularly Dalits .
That's some fine tuning on scale of agreement
It's actually an interesting conversation the author is suggesting that, in a way are we replacing the aristocracy, where we had few people control all the money and power and look down upon the lesser fortunate ones, with meritocracy which makes few people in charge and makes them look down upon those who are less fortunate again. Because, despite all efforts made to bring in equal opportunity we still cannot rule out change. Instead of meritocracy we should let go the hubris and treat each other with respect.
While I agree with the sentiments of the author. I believe we need to reach the level of 'equal opportunity' first and then decide our course of action. An interesting and stimulating conversation nonetheless!!
Equal opportunity alone cannot gaurentee a level playing field...infact where ghe person was nord wat kind of dna he carries too determine his responses to the world.
❤️❤️
India needs social justice where 1per cent population holds 73per cent wealth than any other highly populated country.
In a truly meritocratic society, the winners will help the losers while looking down. I see no problem with it. They're helping right? Michael Sandel is too nice that he has distorted priorities
1. All this madness of Dr. Sandel is working for him! In my opinion, he seems to be doing a disservice to his students though by creating an environment of resentment. He has created this paper tiger of arrogant meritocracy. I recommend he take a sabbatical to visit small stores in India to get a crash course on service because meritocracy and service coupled are unbeatable.
2. At the end of high school, I could barely speak a sentence in English but learnt at the college because students came there from various parts of India. Came to the US without knowing where I was going to sleep that night (quite foolish). People helped and I am grateful. Don't want to brag - things have worked out for my kids as well. Same formula for them because meritocracy and service will beat resentment that is sold as education in the West these days.
It's only about pacification and neutralization of our thinking ability. This can be done by literally ANY argument. Left right or centre. Merit or freebies.
Everyone must be self critical. Meritocrats must also be self critical to realize where they are going wrong. For themselves. Become more liberal and not have set beliefs from which they cannot escape. Eventually it leads to fascism.
Any set belief about anything in this world can be dangerous. Thus, over time always good to revisit and reanalyze. As for me, that alone is the concept of this book. It is not about trashing merit and taking one side. In fact, it is entirely for those who believe strongly in merit, to help dilute any Nazism that may have developed. If it has not, all the better!
The summary - Meritocracy should be perceived as Adler put it, "All people walking on the same level ground. Some with their hardwork and passion get further ahead, some lag behind. But the ones who get ahead should not look down upon People who are left behind because you have to look back on people, and you should realise that they should be entitled to same level of dignity as you would think, because ultimately, you and they, are on the same level ground"
I disagree that this is the case in practice because with globalisation and the events that predated it, the ground that people are rising from is uneven. It's essentially asking people to jump from different levelled ground and awarding the winner. The winner is usually one of ground that is higher than the others, and if there are exceptions, which there are bound to be, the exception is used as proof that the ground must be even for all. They fail to realise that it is called an exception for a reason.
@@smilee2566 Agree
Who defines what is justice, merit, good
.....all the virtues? Also about poor students reaching the U.S and being "successful", has anyone looked at how they produce financial statements to get into the U.S.? Where is the ethic?
Michael Sandel I am living to see you talk. One day I will teach my children about you, when they study about you in college..
All this reminds me of a film 'Marianna'.
Role of good fortune is often ignored by meritorious. This argument couldn’t have been more vague. Is the author presuming everyone believes in the idea of ‘good luck, destiny etc.’ ? Because to begin with these concepts are highly subjective. Can we then expect meritorious be compelled to accept them? Isn’t this compulsion ( say by way of a policy) agains the very idea of democracy? Definitional aspects of humility too depend on point of view and these cannot be dictated.
Thats why I want Tharoor as my PM
In matter of economy each country have different environments and their people’s life but in globalization we compare west to east and south to north, India and Indian are followers of their ideals or gurus and land of meditation so for india SELF SUFFICIENT ECONOMY IS THE BEST POLICY BUT OUR ELECTED PERSON PUT US ON RABBIT ECONOMY
I am fan of both Michael Sandel and Sashi Tharoor. Just a Match !
That is brooming is as dignified as priesthood in the philosophy of Basaveswara.
In India 'merit' is also very, very subjective and relative because of the immense skew and divide in terms of resources, means and opportunities! A level playing field is something we in India need to work on for a long time...the Chinese have cracked a large part of that in few decades...worth studying and learning from...
Sir for better English, which book should be studied?
Bro..memorise phrases, proverbs, beautiful and revealing quotes from classics; read novels, watch movies - look for how a thought is expressed and repeat it in your day to day use of English.
English classics. Only.
Legends has it that when Dr. Shashi Tharoor was born he started teaching English to his parents, doctors and nurses.
This conversation also remind us 3 idiots movie a clash of ideas about real success mean between Aamir Khan & Virus character in movie.
Michael Sandel ,in his inimitable best
western philosophy and eastern philosophy somewhat agree to meet somewhere
Michael Sandel may be exposed to the philosophy of Basaveswara, who promoted the idea of equality and also equality of all types of work and said that kayakave kailas. That is work is worship. Job of cleaning is as important as and even more important than priesthood.
Dr Shashi is mostly defensive of Aristocracy or Meritocracy since he himself is such one I think 🤔
in “love” *
meritocracy is not practised in where i come from, they believe in affirmative action policy, so quotas are fixed for entry into tertiary institutions, this has only produced substandard graduates who become incompetent and inefficient individuals, i believe the best brains should merit placements in varsities & in employment, the best deserve promotions & so forth, not your skin colour, no one should be denied their fundamental rights to a sound education & employment opportunities, our tiny southern neighbour's late prime minister had the prescience & vision to introduce meritocracy in his country to ensure the best would have the opportunities to progress & with it nation-building is ensured, unfortunately my leaders went on a nationalistic & populist path compromising education & progress, so if merit is indeed a tyranny, i pray my leaders would unleash it in my country, i would be grateful to these tyrants
A thoughtful and intelligent discussion on the demerits of meritocracy. It is absolutely true that the current "system" propels us to be winners or losers in the race and in the process looks down upon the losers, creating a sense of worthlessness and discontent, in swathes of our community. Ultimately, at the core of a "just society" would be enlightened individuals, who have broken all the bonds of discrimination. Societies can provide a frame work but I suspect the solution lies within each of us, only if we all would shine the spotlight on ourselves.
Sha - aa - Shee
He is trying to say that there should be some extra marks for the attributes such as colour of your skin, domicile etc.
❤️❤️👏👏👌👌💗💗💓💓❣️❣️
What Michael sandel want to pint out is who we are to give them equality throor sir..because provind them something.making us dominant again from them in 1 sense
മലയാളികളുടെ അഭിമാനം ശശി തരൂര് 🙏
Justice for Sunanda Pushkar
Yes- like
Dislike- comments
I guess in the argument of micheal, shashi can learn and understand what happened to congress in India and how it lost the plot. Now what it takes to regain its lost ground is also indicated by micheal indirectly.
I get what Michael is trying to say to some certain level, but he is way too biased, its clear he leans to the left
And being biased made this conversation a little here and there
Dr Shashi being humble and modest the entire time haha if this was a debate lol
Expand how or why he is biased?
He wrote a whole book just to tell people that one should be humble?? Lol
Vague words which do not manifest into any real change in day to day life.
Shashi bowled him in the first 20 mins itself.
Moral is the most dangerous idea human ever made
Rahul Gandhi is a good example, as a matter of fact, Shashi Tharoor is a better politician in every respect as compared to him.
INDIA WAS A TURTLE ECONOMY AND ITS HAS LONG LIFE BUT THE COUNTRY STAKE HOLDER PUT US ON RABBIT ECONOMY AND ITS NOT LONG LASTING
Mr. Tharoor,
I would like to point that you basically failed to understand the objections of sandel to meritocracy, because he is not that good as a debater, he is inherently a teacher.
If you will watch his series series justice you will see there is a section of the debate where the argue whether our section is our own doing and we deserve it.
The outcome of that experiment is our success has more to do with the qualities we as a society value over others. For the example if we were living in early ages of humanity a totally different set of qualites will be valued than our current society, physical prowess will certainly hold an edge there and more of such examples are discussed there.
Our success has a lot more to do with society than we normally think, there are factors involved like economics of background, qualities and skills that society values over others in that time of your living, the educational background of parents, your area of birth, even being the first child can play a huge role in your success as demonstrated in those debates.
So basically sandel is not really against meritocracy but he wants recognition to those qualities that we are currently valuing at much lower to get a fair recognition and respect they deserve since they too are essential for the functioning of our society.
For the example lets take our indian society as example,
Here we call government officers as Sir, Sahab as if they are above the common public not an equal, since they are doing something that is valued highly in our current society, while as this pandemic has shown us that Health and sanitation workers, even delivery guys became much more valuable than these guys since at that time they were more valuable than these sahabs. But they dont get the respect and right to basic dignified life fitting the current times. Like farmers are essential but you dont call them sahab or manniya and bestow some sense of pride in their work.
We need to move towards a society where we recognise the contribution of these people who have been ignored historically by all kinds of societies. The politics and the general sense of public needs a change. The successful need not inhale their success too deeply and forget that their success is not entirely their doing and system needs to give back atleast a dignified life, respect for those menial task performers that they deserve since they are as essential to nation building as some bureaucrat. This will promote a sense of belonging in those who have been left back by our economic market system and promote them to rise above cast, creed, race , religion and be a enthusiastic participant of the community.
Exactly what Michael Sandel said "Why should some people need to study under lamp whereas a kid at the same level from an affluent family gets all sorts of required not required resources just because his parents hoarded money by one way or other deceiving people?" Something to think about? Sure Dr. Taroor is for sure a good debater but his superficial knowledge of meritocracy will not answer this question. We do know that there are people who want to help and don't take false pride in themselves but as a society we are failing at bringing equality and equity of opportunities. There is a lot of wealth and there are people who want to help and there are tons of NGO's but is it necessarily reaching the less fortunate ones?
The conversation would have been more interesting if the questions pointed towards what can be done to address this issue beyond level playing field, what is the futuristic vision to address this problem beyond just bug fixing if I may say :)
But Also thank you Dr. Taroor for challenging the theme of the book and throwing light.
Mr. Sandel wants to change the history of evolution of human beings, he is living in a dream. We can try to create an equal playing field for all, but more than that could be counter productive. Progress needs incentives, and capitalism and meritocracy (with all their flaws) provide that. any other system is just too impractical to consider and implement in the society.
The irony is
Shasi Tharoor got the membership of the Congress party due to his elite
background that he achieved through the meritocracy.And he got a chance to compete in an election also for that qualification.
He got elected from thiruvananthapuram also due to his elite aura.
And his books...too mediocre
Dr. Tharoor did not tell Prof Sandel that, as a parliamentarian and policy maker with best of the privileges that life had offered him in an era of socialist wretchedness, Dr. Tharoor NEVER raised such topics in Indian parliament or media. About equal opportunities. He NEVER opposed the IAS HUBRIS of which he is a product of. The civil services that is NOT open to general public. Dr. Tharoor (a fine man indeed) talks about how the same wretched rural Indians went to America for higher ed and did so well for themselves. Are you resenting this Dr. Tharoor because many of them have done much better than you?
I don't know why Shashi keeps harping on caste through out his conversations and also compares that with the race issues of the Americas in the same breadth.