Messer Techniques from Talhoffer
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- Опубликовано: 12 апр 2008
- Four plays from Hans Talhoffer's Fechtbuch of 1467 using the Messer.
Check out this great new fictional book involving swordsmanship: www.michaeledelson.net/#/the-t...
EDIT A correction to this video can be found here: • Four Sources on Messer... 
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One can watch these things, but their correct application can only be done with extensive practice made as realistic as is safely possible, I would imagine.
Maybe using a thin yet painful switch instead of an actual messer, to instil a sense of consequence.
For those who have commented, the music is from the Carmina Burana by Carl Orff, first performed in 1937. The language is Latin.
No. It's not by Carl Orff. It's from the medieval collection of songs and poems (Carmina Burana) by an anonymous compiler and mostly unknown authors.
It's "Tempus est Iocundum" - performed here by The New London Consort.
Hoganbeg its German
Killing
To clarify, words are valuable because they have a generally agreed upon meaning within a language. Honorable, for example, means being morally upright and virtuous. However, both morality and virtue are time, place, and culturally dependent. What was considered honorable by medieval Swabians may not be considered honorable now. One view is not intrinsically and universally "more right" than the other, just different. Therefore, the term "honorable" means different things to different people.
These Guys do not play around.This is dirty fighting,Black Magic.Respect.
We've actually been re-thing that particular technique, and we hope to share our new ideas soon. Thanks for watching!
*I knew eventually music would add value to a video on YT lol. Fascinating depiction of Talhoffer reanimated. Lessons learned in the brutal pit of combat reality not unlike the early days of UFC.*
ruclips.net/video/HZAjOf47bGU/видео.html
i wish you and betsy would do more longsword you guys are awesome
The song is awesome.
Lmao
It's a pretty well-known hymn to sexuality and youthful love which was part of the Carmina Burana
Would love to see an updated version of this video! :D
Fantastic. This is a great way to show the techniques; these are some of my favorite plates in Talhoffer (as they are remarkably applicable to single-hand sword and shield use) and you gentlemen have done a beautiful job of showing the techniques and relating them to the source material in a way which leaves little room for argument about the validity of these interpretations. Please keep up the good work.
awesome video. it has always been hard for me to make sense of these illustrations, its really nice to see them played out in a duel. great stuff guys. thanx
Very, very nice. I was especially interested to notice that in Plays 1 & 4, there were movements reminiscent of Chinese swordsmanship, particularly that of the dao. The initial parry and grapple where you take control of your opponent's arm and then slash them with your sword is also present in CSA. Gives very much credence to the fact that you can only use a sword effectively in so many ways.
It's exiting to see these old techniques reconstructed based on old books. That's real history. Thank you.
Some of these techniques are similar at the point of contact with escrima/arnis/kali mechanics. Very interesting connection between SE Asian and European ideas.
@sgtmac46
Exactly! These universal motions that are inherent in all combat-weathered systems is what I and the Co-Founders of Integrated Combative Concepts had done through 17 years of research (each of us beforehand having decades of experience); we have sieved through 1,420+ MA systems and have determined the most common and workable Universal Combat Motions ("U-You C-See M-'Em") as they are found in CQC. I love to see others make such connections.
My "morals" are my own, just as yours are. I'm sure that you believe yours are superior, but then again, so does everyone who thinks in such a way.
You guys always have the best music.
The level of study and practice is outstanding!
Thanks for watching! The song is called "Carmina Burana (13th c. Bavarian Manuscript) - Tempus est iocundum" from "Sinners and Saints: The Ultimate Medieval and Renaissance Music Collection".
16 years ago...art is immortal.
STILL my favorite weapon! Thanks for posting a quiality vid about the little known art of Messer combat.
cont- Play 4 can be seen as a variation or a counter to the counter for play 1 where you produce the overhead counter and the other guy attempts to grasp/cover your weapon with his hands, immediately you pull back the sword thereby avoiding/hurting his hand and successfully thrust at him.Remember, the unarmed hand is held like spring.By the way, please try it and show the video.
Very good, its one thing reading the book and another seeing it done. Cheers, great work!!
Nice video and music, really apreciated
Cheers from 2019.
Nice video and music, really appreciated
I dig the format.
Interesting......it's the same as a roof block and and snake disarm from from the Filipino Martial Arts. Universality of practical human movement. This is good stuff.
I really like My Talhoffer Buckler. A great defensive/ offensive shield.
I suspect the "God help them" was because of the nature of the messer- it was basically a large Bowie knife- meant that all combat was very close-range, brutal and injuries to both parties were unavoidable.
Good video. Instructive and fun to watch.
Haha, thank you very much! More are on the way shortly!
Very well done.
Our new Messer video linked to above has a corrected version of all of these plays and many more.
Really awesome video.
This is the spring of the revival of Historical European Martial Arts, and many used the Art of Fighting to preserve their lives and the lives of others.
Thank you very much! We have one minor correction to the second play that we will film shortly. Thanks again!
Thanks! Yes, what you describe is how we do it now, and have for several years now.
Very nice video!
Thank you for your videos, I have used your videos to learn to improve my skill, I hope you make more, regards from chile and sorry if my english is not okay XD
better than most videos i've seen recently....
few things i'd like to point out:
Second play: the first step is already taken if you go against the strike. for the actual "reisen" you need a scnd step otherwise you wont hold a serious strike like that.
in your third play make sure u use your first step out of the line of attack. dont be lazy with your footwork.
other than that its not a bad basis to work with.
cheers \o
Thanks! Although I believe displacements can be performed with either the edge or flat depending in the situation, I definitely believe that the flat is used here. Take care!
o.k...this was very nice. Thanks for sharing
Abi
Nice job guys!
THANK YOU! Very convincing interpretations bring the manual alive. The messer being a most dangerous weapon. The severed hand still holding the sword is a very disturbing image hence I think any student would want to get the moves down.
I am a Chinese Kung Fu teacher. His No. 3 scenario is widely used with the Chinese straight sword called Jian. Many swordsmen only had the blade sharpened about to one third off the tip. That way they could hold on to the bottom part of the blade for extra force. It is common in my style to get close and trap the opponent's arm or wrist. I think most people don't realize that sword fights only take a few seconds in reality
Good clean defenses and counters. Shame my Little hema group don´t do messers. We focus on the Italians, mainly Fiores treatises. So mostly longswords, daggers and Spears/glaives.
wunderbar!
messer is definitely one of the imposing swords
It just looks wild :D
Well done!
Love the music
@mojothemigo Those are just Talhoffer's illustration of them. If you watch MEMAG's "Four Sources on Messer Combat" that have plays from Hans Talhoffer, Paulus Kal, Codex Wallerstein, and Sigmund Emring, you can see a variety in the illustrations. A langes messer is a long knife, so there'll be just as much variation as their is in smaller knives.
love this BGM
the one at 2.50 looks great!
Haha, thanks for the compliment(s)!
The music is Totus Floreo.
Brutal
&
Great music
nice work...
@Cherrypoppins18 It was standard phrase in Talhoffer's Fechtbücher.
I dig your interpretation, but in the second play, I think there is significance to hooking their wrist with the butt of the weapon and applying pressure to the back of the elbow. I think it' likelier that the "thrust to the elbow" is in fact a joint lock, specifically breaking the elbow. So instead of shoving the opponent away, you pull their wrist to your hip with the butt of the messer and sharply apply force to the back of their elbow for a break.
Thank you very much!
@Pawnbroker00 No these are messers, knifes yes but long knifes. A messer is often single-edged and a sword double-edged.
If you thing these knifes looks big, then I want you to look up großes messer and/or kriegmesser.
Weird to think we all have ancestors, who at some point, lived and died by these techniques.
I like to give some secrets to play number one.Please try it.The hand behind is held like a spring for a good reason. Immediately after you parry the overhead strike just uncoil it and lock his sword arm.Immediately after you parry the other guy should release his unarmed arm like a spring and try to grasp your sword before you begin to strike.in this way, he will safely cover the strike with his arm and grasp it with his hand. a full swing blow is not possible to parry with the hand alone.
yes that seems the case, thanks Memag, i overlooked ths
1:40 That's exactly one of the first two techniques tought in Aikido.
@Salisaad Cool to know, thanks for responding
Thank you!
Very nice. By practice and study we keep the European Art alive.
Question: Why do they keep one arm behind their backs? Is there some utility to this - keeping it out of the way of a slash?
The text shown in the images of this video are not original, but an interpretive translation that made in the 1800s. Our translations are from the original text, which is why they do not match the text in the images here.
Ha, I think you are right! Thank you!
Oh shit, now that song is stuck in my head.
OH, OH, TOTUS FLOREO
COOL! Question though, I noticed the drawings use strait blades except for the clipped and bellied last 2-3 inches of the sword. They look almost entirely like a normal single handed broadsword except for single edge and again, the tip. Did people back then use Messers (and falchions) With more belly at the end like you were using?
ahhh yes perfect for my side scroll wish the camera wasn't blurry but it'll work.
@GecSword Actually, given the force with which you would make the cut, it's more likely that their severed hand would be sent backwards towards them. Look at many of the cutting videos done by relative amateurs here on RUclips; notice how the severed portion of whatever they cut (be it water bottle or tatami) often goes flying in the same direction they cut. The hand would be no different, so it'd actually be more likely to cut its owner than you.
There are a few reason but perhaps the biggest is to remove a target from your enemy. Having your opponent lob off your arm because you were waving it about is a bad idea.
It must be the speed, because we use the flat to parry with that particular technique. Take care!
@GecSword True enough, true enough. Of course, since the messer was often used by peasant soldiers, they would at least be lightly armored and somewhat protected from the glancing blow a falling sword like that would offer. Then again, there are just too many variables and anything's possible, particularly in battle.
From the quote at the start, can I assume you have read K.J. Parker's Sharps?
@sgtmac46 Is Eskrima a synthesis of European systems & native Filipino systems? If so that might also be another reason for the similarity. Good comment on the practicality of Human movement.
Who made your messers? We are trying to study these techniques in Australia, but having trouble sourcing decent messers...
Please see our updated version linked above.
too much "movie" culture mislead to such concept. We do German and Italian style sword fencing full contact, and duels at the "first touch" really take very little time, as you say (and I have historical records of duels fought in the 1500s confirming that)
Your comment is very nice and shows a very good martial knowledge and no prejudices. My compliments.
Schelmish has a version of that song named "Tempus est lucundum"
No worries! Take care!
I like the music. What is it called and, who is performing the song?
I see alot of these techniques imply cutting the hand, off-handing, and weakening the opponent and exploiting. All in all, amazing jobs, bois.
@MrPotatoesLatkie The song is called "totus floreo", but I can't find the artist who made it. I like this version more than any other. If you can find this artist, please tell me :3
True, but where do they block a strike with the arm? Take a closer look and you'll see it's a cover against a downward strike with the Messer over the left arm with which you'll close in a grapple. No "blocking with arms". Good work guys! Are you trying out Johannes Lecküchner as well? That's the No.1 Messer source!
Yes, that was a typo.
where is the music from? Would love to know :)
Truly horrific outcome for the loser, but both men agree to fight from the outset in the knowledge of what's to be expected!
Life was certainly more bloody in those day's of up close and personal combat to the death...
Am in process of purchasing a Messer from Cold Steel, I really enjoyed the video, I am wondering though what effect would be if engaging a left handed opponent? I am a lefty I have practiced movement with Katana & Viking sword & it often confuses my friend who is training me (he is by far the better swordsman BUT I out shoot him with the 1911 LOL).
Das ist gut!
@xtcarnage15586 These show FOUR plays from Talhoffer's works; not all there is. There's Leckuchner, Lichtenaur, Emring, Kal, and those are just the ones MEMAG has done. That said, the slash from above and the thrust were the most common attacks done with the messer because they're simple attacks and the messer was mostly a peasant's weapon. Peasant's weren't usually very well trained.
man i wd love to know where the music is from too!!!!!!!!!
"here they fight with messer. god help them" LOL today that would be "fighting with huge long knives has been known to shorten your life expectancy." great work again guys.
Very nice. Most refreshing to see a hanging parry performed with the flat of the blade rather than with the edge! Well done.
Its funny that he says god help them, but what do you think he meant by that?
Yep, and that's fine with me. Take care!
It was a JOKE ;) sorry I forgot the smiley there at the end.