Actually this was a common 'divorce' practise. Although this particular record makes it seem utterly unfair towards the woman compared to other accounts that would arm both with clubs and bind one of the man's arms, which is just as unfair, but towards the man.
This is the first time I've seen a video interpretation of this. I've seen the various illustrations and descriptions in the treaties, but this has solidified how fantastic the practice is in its mechanics. Thank you for this video.
This is for a judicial duel. Consider the case of a freewoman who insists she was raped, and a minor nobleman who insists that he did not touch her. Consider the case of what happens if the case goes to trial by combat, but the freewoman has nobody willing to fight for her, and is outmatched by her opponent in both strength and skill. Those presiding over the combat might choose to use this method of resolution to make it more even - a handicap match, in other words.
Seems like the best strategy for the woman would be to use low flourishes to conserve energy, forcing the man to keep his guard high thus over time making his shoulder tired. Then when he is exhausted from fighting gravity, she should be able to pull off some of the moves illustrated with no problem. The man should crouch down in the pit and turtle up, resting his club arm on another part of his body to keep it high while still conserving energy. This should force her to have to come within striking range to engage the man. Then he can spring up and execute a device against her.
This is for judicial duels. As in, the type of duel that is meant to decide who is guilty in felony cases that cannot be resolved due to lack of witness (the most common being a woman says she was raped, and the man says that he never touched her). On paper, this kind of duel is to the death or submission of one fighter, even with a woman involved, and the prize for victory is one's respective side in the court case being declared triumphant. TL;DR: No, it was for actual combat in court.
It's a Trial by Combat/Judicial Duel scenario, rare but not unheard of, and the setup is intended to eliminate or at least minimize the man's "natural" advantage by placing him in the pit. From what little I've been able to find out, it was rare mostly because most women sought or were provided with a male champion, and sources vary widely on exactly what the win/loss conditions were for which setups.
I remember the first time I met MEMAG, Cory mentioned suspecting one day he'd find himself digging a hole for this exact piece. Thus, the prophecy is fulfilled!
It was closer to a pound, but even at this weight and being soft you can feel it. We experimented with a five pound weight, and it handles significantly slower, but hits extremely hard.
With a 5 lb rock?! This is an easy win for the woman every time with the right technique. Since she has the ability to move back and forth and he's stationary, she could just keep the proper distance so r sleeve doesn't wrap around the club, and aim for his fingers. She wouldn't even need to swing near as hard as she's swinging in this video, with a 5 lb Stone she could easily crush his hands with a quarter of the effort.
By the time it got to that they probably despised eachother! Wild to think of though like you said, hard to imagine but I guess someone crossed the line.
Well, this looks like a fantastic amount of fun. Thanks for actually demonstrating this technique, now if we could only get it into the tournaments. By the by, what's the music you use? Both pieces are awesome.
Soooo, there are daggers in that ditch right? like If I was in one of them holes I'd need a shield and a dagger for quick shit, but it seems almost too convenient to put a dagger in every trench.
Handicap... It is most likely something silly looking to work out frustrations between couples which will give them something to laugh about afterwards.
Both weapons appear to be to long "the length from the sleeve from the elbow to the wrist" this would change the mechanics of those techniques quite a bit
Very nice, but I would like to see some full contact because only when the techniques are done at full speed can you see if they work or not, dont rely on books just because they are old
Pardon my ignorance, but when would this scenario actually take place? A dual for besmirched honor? Also, why is there a pit? Is it a form of handicap for the woman?
I'm a little disturbed that they resorted to this so often that strategies were devised for both parties to fight in this manner. If y'all are coming to blows that darn often, you need to just call the marriage done . . .
Women have, more or less, the same kind of body as men. They are basically humanoid. Thus, there is no sensible reason to have different techniques, depending on gender.
ZarlanTheGreen Really? Since women has less physical strengh than man, they need more techniques don't use much physical strengh. There are many special techniques only for women in other martial arts, mostly focus more on speed, rotation moves than male's counterpart. Don't you know?
pirotess2 _"Since women has less physical strengh than man"_ Sure. Women, _on average,_ *have* (not has) less physical strength (note that there is a "t" in that word) than *men* (Men, not man). However, that is an average. There are plenty of women who have more strength than the average man, and plenty of men who are weaker than the average woman. If you see a man and a woman, you can't say that the woman is weaker than the man, just because she is a woman and he is a man. _"they need more techniques don't use much physical strengh."_ ... That makes no grammatical sense. I assume you mean that they need more techniques that don't use much physical strength. If less strength meant you need a different martial art, then plenty of men would need that art, and plenty of women would need the "male" martial art. Besides: Martial arts isn't about strength, it's about technique. There are no martial arts techniques, that require too much strength for a woman to perform. Martial arts techniques generally don't really require great amounts of strength, anyway. _"There are many special techniques only for women in other martial arts, mostly focus more on speed, rotation moves than male's counterpart."_ That is utter nonsense. No martial art has "female" techniques. Besides, *all* martial arts and *all* martial arts techniques prefer things like speed and rotation, over strength.
ZarlanTheGreen Actually in Asian Martial arts there are styles work well for women and smaller men....Chi Sim Weng Chun is considered a "soft" style martial art in that it utilizes the energy of the opponent to break their structure rather than trying to match their energy. The main focus is on combining physical fitness with the health of both the body and mind. This is achieved through a combination of hard physical training and a deep underlying philosophy of understanding one's body movements and how and why they are employed.The ultimate goal in Weng Chun is complete mastery of both the body and the mind.
I will admit that this is very cool and very informational, but I must also admit that I am not historically literate enough to know why a guy is in the pit in the first place; it seems like a very strange predicament to be in one when in a fight
It's part of a judicial duel. Not only would he be in a pit, but they would also be sewn into skin tight, greased clothing to make it mot difficult to grapple. The consideration here is to even the fighting ability between the sexes when a woman may not be the most fit in the duel. Even then they would be given six weeks to prepare themselves physically, mentally and spiritually before they fight to the potential death.
To make it more even, as generally the type of woman who would be getting into judicial duels would not have much martial training or upper body strength (not a peasant, but not upper crust either - the type of lady that gets raped and has to fend for herself and her own justice). If a noblewoman, with actual combat training (yes, they did train them in combat), faced a male opponent, chances it would be on more even terms. Talhoffer seems to have made his career training the underprepared.
And they lived happily ever after.
Legend says they solve all their arguments like this...
Actually this was a common 'divorce' practise. Although this particular record makes it seem utterly unfair towards the woman compared to other accounts that would arm both with clubs and bind one of the man's arms, which is just as unfair, but towards the man.
@@awakeneddio6012 this was because "a Woman is half a Man" there for the man should be symbolically in half
@@forickgrimaldus8301 Indeed.
I have never seen anything so brutal yet so hilarious in my life
This is the first time I've seen a video interpretation of this. I've seen the various illustrations and descriptions in the treaties, but this has solidified how fantastic the practice is in its mechanics. Thank you for this video.
Pretty cool, yet the man and woman were sewn into the suits. Still an awesome re-enactment.
This is for a judicial duel. Consider the case of a freewoman who insists she was raped, and a minor nobleman who insists that he did not touch her. Consider the case of what happens if the case goes to trial by combat, but the freewoman has nobody willing to fight for her, and is outmatched by her opponent in both strength and skill. Those presiding over the combat might choose to use this method of resolution to make it more even - a handicap match, in other words.
Seems like the best strategy for the woman would be to use low flourishes to conserve energy, forcing the man to keep his guard high thus over time making his shoulder tired. Then when he is exhausted from fighting gravity, she should be able to pull off some of the moves illustrated with no problem.
The man should crouch down in the pit and turtle up, resting his club arm on another part of his body to keep it high while still conserving energy. This should force her to have to come within striking range to engage the man. Then he can spring up and execute a device against her.
This is for judicial duels. As in, the type of duel that is meant to decide who is guilty in felony cases that cannot be resolved due to lack of witness (the most common being a woman says she was raped, and the man says that he never touched her). On paper, this kind of duel is to the death or submission of one fighter, even with a woman involved, and the prize for victory is one's respective side in the court case being declared triumphant.
TL;DR: No, it was for actual combat in court.
It's a Trial by Combat/Judicial Duel scenario, rare but not unheard of, and the setup is intended to eliminate or at least minimize the man's "natural" advantage by placing him in the pit. From what little I've been able to find out, it was rare mostly because most women sought or were provided with a male champion, and sources vary widely on exactly what the win/loss conditions were for which setups.
Finally! I am so glad to finally see someone giving this section of Talhoffer the proper scholarly insight it deserves :)
I remember the first time I met MEMAG, Cory mentioned suspecting one day he'd find himself digging a hole for this exact piece. Thus, the prophecy is fulfilled!
Super kudos to you guys for putting this on film! Very interesting stuff!
I really like the way you fade in and out of your bout with the original illustrations
2:40 - its fair to say that every man would shout "Uncle!" at that point
It was closer to a pound, but even at this weight and being soft you can feel it. We experimented with a five pound weight, and it handles significantly slower, but hits extremely hard.
Highly informative videos you have! What-ho! You've earned a subscriber. I wish there was a HEMA club around here.
Thanks for doing this. A valuable experiment!
Ancient courting rituals sure were strange.
wonderful! this is a well done and authentic reenactment of female vs male trial by combat.
With a 5 lb rock?! This is an easy win for the woman every time with the right technique. Since she has the ability to move back and forth and he's stationary, she could just keep the proper distance so r sleeve doesn't wrap around the club, and aim for his fingers.
She wouldn't even need to swing near as hard as she's swinging in this video, with a 5 lb Stone she could easily crush his hands with a quarter of the effort.
Equality!!! :) Interesting video MEMAG. Thanks for sharing.
I had no idea someone had made a video on this.
It's hilarious! :D
...and a valuable part, of the reconstruction of the Medieval arts.
Excellent ! Bravo !
so this is how people date in medieval ages !
+Ákos Kovács More like medieval affirmative action for the disadvantaged
The one who loses dies. It is for life or death.
I was told there was a Civil War camp on the property, so it could have been from that, but I'm not sure.
Weird but cool. A little known or acknowledged part of history. Thanks.
If trial by combat still existed, people would be nicer to one another.
This looks pretty fun actually
Really nicely done
I remember you mentioning one day finding yourself digging a hole for this exact reason at one of the seminars you guys did down my way.
M.
i actually didnt think it would be that equal with him being in the pit and all XD also, that is some really nice free-sparring
it’s crazy to think that 2 people who fell in love with each other, have to try to kill each other. i can’t imagine that
By the time it got to that they probably despised eachother! Wild to think of though like you said, hard to imagine but I guess someone crossed the line.
It was not a duel to death afaik, but it could have happened.
Its the middle ages theres a chance it was an arranged marriage or no one else in the village was applicable to be wed to
great video
well done guys!
In the reenactment the "morning star"/sock is longer than in the manual. Big difference.
Well, this looks like a fantastic amount of fun. Thanks for actually demonstrating this technique, now if we could only get it into the tournaments. By the by, what's the music you use? Both pieces are awesome.
This would NOT have been fun in medieval times, when the loser fucking died lol.
@2:40, the medieval reach around
Was the object to pull them into/out of the pit? Or was it just to keep wacking each other until one of them loses?
I feel like there's a lot of symbolism involved
It's a medieval style linen sock stuffed full of more socks and tied. It isn't near five pounds, but it still hurts! The club is a pickaxe handle.
I seem to recall that it was a way of making judicial duels between a man and a woman more even.
Whats the music on this one?
best wishes
What a pity that this wasn't part of the "pon far" rituals in Star Trek OST. Or, if not the Vulcan premarital practices, their divorce procedures.
4：00 in this position, a triangle choke is applicable. Is there a similar technique in the manuals?
wonderful! i wonder if i could get my man to do this?
Nice video. Who performs the music?
So, I'm curious about the dark layer of strata in the soil. Is it from the original construction? Or some other phenomena?
Its a judicial duel.
Soooo, there are daggers in that ditch right? like If I was in one of them holes I'd need a shield and a dagger for quick shit, but it seems almost too convenient to put a dagger in every trench.
Is the sock more around two or three pounds? I'm simply curious as to the weight, since it does seem to hurt. I didn't think socks would.
2:40 - 10/10 would give up.
Hi, how did you dicede, when the man gets his arm free?
Seems even advantaged.
But where are the pigskin onesies?!
What weapons did you use for this? I'm looking more at the woman's weapon than the man's, curious as to what materials you used.
Handicap... It is most likely something silly looking to work out frustrations between couples which will give them something to laugh about afterwards.
Both weapons appear to be to long "the length from the sleeve from the elbow to the wrist" this would change the mechanics of those techniques quite a bit
I'm guessing not a lot of people gotten a divorce during the medieval era
By the way. Was this a formal treatise on how a man and woman should duel to settle disputes?
Very nice, but I would like to see some full contact because only when the techniques are done at full speed can you see if they work or not, dont rely on books just because they are old
Full contact with safe weapons :) Not full contact with the real thing ??
Seems legit. Maybe we should go back to that? xD Divorce rates will plummet. Or maybe rise? Terms of battle negotiated before it commences!
What is the music source?
If you two ever have a marriage break down.....
Pardon my ignorance, but when would this scenario actually take place? A dual for besmirched honor? Also, why is there a pit? Is it a form of handicap for the woman?
but why is one of them in a hole?
well no Divorce here lol
I'm a little disturbed that they resorted to this so often that strategies were devised for both parties to fight in this manner. If y'all are coming to blows that darn often, you need to just call the marriage done . . .
😂😂😂😂
Does any hand-to-hand techniques for woman during Medieval era? Or they use same techniques for man?
Women have, more or less, the same kind of body as men. They are basically humanoid.
Thus, there is no sensible reason to have different techniques, depending on gender.
ZarlanTheGreen Really? Since women has less physical strengh than man, they need more techniques don't use much physical strengh. There are many special techniques only for women in other martial arts, mostly focus more on speed, rotation moves than male's counterpart. Don't you know?
pirotess2 _"Since women has less physical strengh than man"_
Sure. Women, _on average,_ *have* (not has) less physical strength (note that there is a "t" in that word) than *men* (Men, not man).
However, that is an average. There are plenty of women who have more strength than the average man, and plenty of men who are weaker than the average woman.
If you see a man and a woman, you can't say that the woman is weaker than the man, just because she is a woman and he is a man.
_"they need more techniques don't use much physical strengh."_
...
That makes no grammatical sense. I assume you mean that they need more techniques that don't use much physical strength.
If less strength meant you need a different martial art, then plenty of men would need that art, and plenty of women would need the "male" martial art.
Besides: Martial arts isn't about strength, it's about technique.
There are no martial arts techniques, that require too much strength for a woman to perform. Martial arts techniques generally don't really require great amounts of strength, anyway.
_"There are many special techniques only for women in other martial arts, mostly focus more on speed, rotation moves than male's counterpart."_
That is utter nonsense.
No martial art has "female" techniques. Besides, *all* martial arts and *all* martial arts techniques prefer things like speed and rotation, over strength.
Lewis Carlin ?
None of what you said, is in any way relevant to this discussion ...which is a month old, BTW.
ZarlanTheGreen Actually in Asian Martial arts there are styles work well for women and smaller men....Chi Sim Weng Chun is considered a "soft" style martial art in that it utilizes the energy of the opponent to break their structure rather than trying to match their energy. The main focus is on combining physical fitness with the health of both the body and mind. This is achieved through a combination of hard physical training and a deep underlying philosophy of understanding one's body movements and how and why they are employed.The ultimate goal in Weng Chun is complete mastery of both the body and the mind.
He cheated and used both arms! :P
I will admit that this is very cool and very informational, but I must also admit that I am not historically literate enough to know why a guy is in the pit in the first place; it seems like a very strange predicament to be in one when in a fight
It's part of a judicial duel. Not only would he be in a pit, but they would also be sewn into skin tight, greased clothing to make it mot difficult to grapple. The consideration here is to even the fighting ability between the sexes when a woman may not be the most fit in the duel. Even then they would be given six weeks to prepare themselves physically, mentally and spiritually before they fight to the potential death.
To make it more even, as generally the type of woman who would be getting into judicial duels would not have much martial training or upper body strength (not a peasant, but not upper crust either - the type of lady that gets raped and has to fend for herself and her own justice).
If a noblewoman, with actual combat training (yes, they did train them in combat), faced a male opponent, chances it would be on more even terms.
Talhoffer seems to have made his career training the underprepared.
why is he in a pit though?
Was this a *regular* occurrence?
No. We have no evidence outside of the Fechtbook that this sort of combat ever took place and if it did it was a very rare judicial context.
Cool, but why would a man stand in a hole and fight a woman?
Why are you in the ground lol?
lol
It's a handicap for the guy. The woman's the one outside the hole.
I'd say she kicked your ass....;)
So, why is he standing in a hole again?
To put the man and woman on equal footing, exactly like what is happening today.
Make divorce great again
Why were women dueling men in the medieval age?
Anthony Robinson there was no TV no soaps to watch .so why not give him a slap just to show him who's boss .
How the hell is a man supposed to win this? I guess he isn't?
As you have probably seen in the sparring, it is totally possible. Also, at that time a man was way more likely to be fit for combat than a woman