Four Sources on Messer Combat

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  • Опубликовано: 5 авг 2009
  • Talhoffer, Kal, Codex Wallerstein, Sigmund Emring
    EDIT The last technique should simply be a cutting off of the hand, without the initial parry.
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Комментарии • 101

  • @Alquanole
    @Alquanole 14 лет назад +3

    Very nice job.
    LOL at 5:00 that's so similar to the ikkio technique from Aikido. So much for those advocating the "implicit superiority" of eastern martial arts.

  • @VCBird6
    @VCBird6 8 лет назад +11

    0:57 My favorite messer technique :)
    Also translates pretty well into saber, side sword, etc ^^
    Pretty much any one handed sword, really (except really huge rapiers and the like).

  • @MEMAG
    @MEMAG  11 лет назад +10

    Non-issue. ARMA does not believe edge-parries were used. We and many others believe that they were.

  • @emu4286
    @emu4286 15 лет назад +1

    Great video, I'm glad there's so much material on Messer fighting, as I've recently developed an appreciation for it. It's light, controllable and great for use with grappling techniques, and I'm willing to bet that it can shear off heads and limbs with ease.

  • @StuartMcDermid
    @StuartMcDermid 11 лет назад +1

    Great vid chaps.
    People! If parries were supposed to be done with the flat then the quilions would go in the other direction. Swords (and particularly messers) were disposable items.

  • @georgesulea
    @georgesulea 14 лет назад

    This is FASCINATING; I've purchased a Grosse Messer recently and have some practice with iaido and some Japanese fencing in the past. This video is very clear and concise; thanks for the hard work:)

  • @grailchaser
    @grailchaser 13 лет назад

    Its refreshing to see someone get this right for a change.
    Most of the supposed disarms and binds I've seen on RUclips fail because of poor timing and a misunderstanding of Talhoffer's technique. Well done guys!

  • @MEMAG
    @MEMAG  15 лет назад +1

    Thank you. The messer really is an enjoyable weapon to work with.

  • @ChishioAme
    @ChishioAme 14 лет назад +2

    Excellent video! I've been mostly a Japanese/Chinese swordsman, but I've been wanting to get into medieval sword techniques and considered the longsword, but I prefer one handed swords, so it's best to play to my strengths and this made me really, really want to study the messer.

  • @plinkbottle
    @plinkbottle 5 лет назад

    The messer usually has a slight distance disadvantage, so its not surprising that the popular messer techniques feature ways of getting up close, for a grab, punch, chop or lethal parry.

  • @GunpointSyndicate
    @GunpointSyndicate 12 лет назад

    Awesome video! Very well-informed demonstrations.

  • @Ederick1936
    @Ederick1936 14 лет назад

    so much edge on edge sword play makes me cry a little inside.
    but i guess the way the Messer fit into society, they weren't too worried about preserving the blade

  • @Whiskey_and_Steel
    @Whiskey_and_Steel 12 лет назад

    Well done. I've learned a few skills thanks to you.

  • @TimberwolfCY
    @TimberwolfCY 11 лет назад

    This is excellent, thanks a lot for this.

  • @MEMAG
    @MEMAG  15 лет назад

    Thank you Rob!

  • @coatltepetchia9854
    @coatltepetchia9854 5 лет назад

    Awesome video, congrats

  • @Mantinae
    @Mantinae 8 лет назад

    Impressive! Nice work.

  • @Arnisboy
    @Arnisboy 15 лет назад

    Excellent research and nice execution. It's really great to see the actual techniques from the manuscripts in action.
    I'm interested in European messer techniques in particular, since I see a lot of similarities (technically and conceptually) between it and Philippine arnis/escrima, especially in the emphasis on hitting the attacker's wrist and "snaking" in the free hand. Great work!

  • @vanillagorilla9841
    @vanillagorilla9841 10 лет назад

    Very nicely done.

  • @MikeySee563
    @MikeySee563 10 лет назад

    Great stuff guys!

  • @cerkuenik
    @cerkuenik 15 лет назад

    great work!
    I love messer/arming sword, i wish there were more manuals about it.

  • @MEMAG
    @MEMAG  15 лет назад +1

    Thanks!
    Betsy received a bruise on her hand from that one when the cross hit it...

  • @MEMAG
    @MEMAG  15 лет назад

    Thanks Robert!

  • @ChishioAme
    @ChishioAme 13 лет назад +4

    @mailmanofdeth In most cases, you'd be correct, sadly. I'm unashamed to be a student of Bei Shaolin, but I also have a great interest in the messer, the longsword to some degree, and the Russian shashka, though I've found almost NO sources on the last one. More than credit, WMA doesn't really get the respect it deserves and I can only blame Hollywood for portraying it as two people banging their swords together with as much grace as a bull in a china shop.

  • @MEMAG
    @MEMAG  15 лет назад

    Thanks! We had them custom made from aluminum by Valentine Armouries, who unfortunately don't make them anymore. You can find similar ones online though, if you search hard enough.

  • @Leondrian
    @Leondrian 15 лет назад

    Thanks again Cory for sharing. Great one. Like that you used helmets.
    /Robert

  • @MEMAG
    @MEMAG  15 лет назад

    Danke schön!

  • @SAsgarters
    @SAsgarters 15 лет назад +1

    Very nice.
    4:54 Now that's a nasty way to disarm your opponent. ;)

  • @LoderMike
    @LoderMike 11 лет назад

    Thanks. Well presented.

  • @Olwe1992
    @Olwe1992 14 лет назад

    very nice work! the slowmotion makes things really clear :D
    (and cool Medieval Total War 2 music ofcourse ^^)
    *****

  • @Laitharex
    @Laitharex 11 лет назад

    Thanks, my man!

  • @tonynapoli5549
    @tonynapoli5549 5 лет назад

    Very impressive thank you 👍🇬🇧

  • @elric111
    @elric111 3 года назад

    a good job-excellent--wish i could train with you guys

  • @Sermaelgrim
    @Sermaelgrim 15 лет назад

    As always, stellar work. It really makes me wish that the English had written down anything about their falchion tradition.

  • @robotminione
    @robotminione 12 лет назад +1

    I think one thing to keep in mind though is that even considering how much poorer people were in historical times, messers are a lot cheaper, lower-class weapons than a longsword. They're basically just machetes (even similar name...). Grid the edge back into shape and it's good to go, no precise masterful razor finish needed. So maybe not as much care was needed? Especially not at the at the cost of a life-saving parry?

  • @shrekas2966
    @shrekas2966 8 лет назад +7

    medieval 2 music

  • @MEMAG
    @MEMAG  15 лет назад +1

    The cut from above is the most common type of attack with the messer. 4:22 4:35 and 4:48 show counters to thrusts, at least two of which could also have been performed against cuts from below.

    • @macekreislahomes1690
      @macekreislahomes1690 4 года назад +1

      4:22 , 4:35 , 4:48 Hope it helps and that I got the times right. The time stamps ceaced to work.

  • @evilfuzzydoom
    @evilfuzzydoom 15 лет назад

    Was going to say the same thing- awesome!

  • @MEMAG
    @MEMAG  11 лет назад +2

    Medieval II Total War Soundtrack "Amen"

  • @RelativelyBest
    @RelativelyBest 15 лет назад

    In that case, sabers are ideal. Most of them tend to have guards protecting the back of the hand and the knuckles. Actually, some moves I've seen relies on deflecting the opponent's blade over the guard.

  • @tonynapoli5549
    @tonynapoli5549 5 лет назад

    Just subscribed 👍👌🇬🇧

  • @secutorprimus
    @secutorprimus 6 лет назад

    I may want to look at these treatises, I'm studying mainly out of Lecküchner

  • @Kunstdesfechtens
    @Kunstdesfechtens 15 лет назад

    Also remember that rising cuts often leave the head exposed, and are riskier than cuts from above. They are also relatively easy to defend against on average and are slower as they work against gravity rather than WITH it, which a downward cut does. Rising cuts are more often done from a quick disengage after initial blade contact like in the technique called "Hendetrucken" by Liechtenauer. Very few techniques begin with a rising cut from wide range, since it can get you killed quite easily! :)

  • @xxmushisushixx1049
    @xxmushisushixx1049 3 года назад

    Awesome

  • @AlasdairNicoll
    @AlasdairNicoll 11 лет назад

    I'm inclined to agree with you - I can't see how half these plays would work without them.

  • @ewbecht
    @ewbecht 13 лет назад

    Nice music choice.

  • @cooks2006
    @cooks2006 14 лет назад

    my fav

  • @2ndCthulhu
    @2ndCthulhu 10 лет назад +3

    I was wondering: Why didn't you show any visuals from Sigmund Emring's Fechtbuch? Were there none available or did you have to leave them out for some reason?
    I think it added a lot of credibility to the figures you've shown by also displaying your historical sources.
    Overall: Great vid! Grosse Messer are best messer!

    • @MEMAG
      @MEMAG  10 лет назад +6

      That source is not illustrated. Thanks!

  • @MEMAG
    @MEMAG  10 лет назад

    Correct. See my reply on our other messer video.

  • @RelativelyBest
    @RelativelyBest 15 лет назад +1

    "No sword for you!" XD

  • @gabrielolmedo9000
    @gabrielolmedo9000 8 лет назад +1

    I know: messers are just big sword-like knives, but I've seen that it looks a lot like a germanic saex knife, is there any connection?

  • @Ranziel1
    @Ranziel1 13 лет назад +1

    @KissakiSan I see your point. I guess presenting European martial arts to the yet uneducated masses in a more appealing manner would only do good for the HEMA, as more followers equals quicker revitalization. I guess you're right, it's just annoying that it has to be advertised like that.

  • @johnmeadowcourt
    @johnmeadowcourt 15 лет назад

    nice video. a pity you didn`t add some pieces from leckuchner.

  • @RelativelyBest
    @RelativelyBest 15 лет назад

    Presumably sabers/hangers are well suited for this too?

  • @MEMAG
    @MEMAG  15 лет назад

    We wanted to show these "other sources" here separately in their entirety. Lecküchner is treated elsewhere ;)

  • @eEdselEdsel
    @eEdselEdsel 11 лет назад

    I miss trying to smack people with swords. Thanks for posting this.

  • @Schmitti1982
    @Schmitti1982 14 лет назад

    fantastic video, but can you answer me a question? i wanna know why they was fight with one hand on back ?!

  • @TimberwolfCY
    @TimberwolfCY 11 лет назад

    Indeed, assuming edge parries weren't used, a simple rotation of the weapon would provide for it. None of the techniques presented couldn't be reproduced with a "flat-parry." Further, the exact perpendicular flat need not be presented, only a enough of a rotation to negate the defender's edge being struck would be sufficient. After all, a proper parry isn't a direct block, it is a deflection.

  • @Jarlemoore1
    @Jarlemoore1 8 лет назад

    Nice.

  • @wolfflamekindl9339
    @wolfflamekindl9339 8 лет назад

    does anyone know why the other hand is behind the back? is it for protection? or is it signifying something, like you only unleash your other hand when you're ready to end the fight?

    • @wolfflamekindl9339
      @wolfflamekindl9339 8 лет назад

      ***** thanks much!

    • @michealhoffstater9810
      @michealhoffstater9810 7 лет назад

      I will say though, with sabre usually the off-hand is placed on the hip, not the back, related to posture and breathing support. In either case one of the main purposes is to keep the off-hand away from target zones. With daggers this is often reversed as (historical) dagger-fighting involved much grappling.

  • @AlasdairNicoll
    @AlasdairNicoll 11 лет назад

    Question: according to ARMA, re: Codex Wallerstein, "As with other sources, once again no direct parrying (or any "edge blocking") is evident.". I'm not sure how some of these plays could work without a direct parry - I'm not sure whether we should be making more of an effort to parry with the flat, or whether it's a non-issue. Thoughts?

  • @jackatalon
    @jackatalon 15 лет назад

    exelant

  • @Ariovistvs
    @Ariovistvs 9 лет назад

    Nice Video! Where did you get your messer from? I am struggeling finding authentic + usable replicas on any manufacturer except albion swords. Can you racomment something else?
    Kind Regards!

  • @Laitharex
    @Laitharex 11 лет назад

    Guys, What's the music that starts at 3:07?

  • @VegaEtereo
    @VegaEtereo 15 лет назад

    My favorite is the last source. Someone died behind the bushes at 4:54? :P

  • @UnclePutte
    @UnclePutte 14 лет назад

    I'd like to add a little detail my cheater's conscience thought of first - who'd want to advertise the fact that they're holding a dagger or a cocked flintlock in the other hand? That is, assuming it's not a formal duel in question, but rather a streetfight, a robbery or a downright murder attempt in question.

  • @SoWe1
    @SoWe1 10 лет назад

    first source - the font used is not actually from germany in that time(145x), nor is the spelling or wording.
    btw I like how all the people depicted have a nice beer belly :D

  • @elgostine
    @elgostine 12 лет назад

    looks very good. though i cant help but feel the way your recieving the strikes wouldnt be the best for the edge. after a couple of exchanges like them youd see a near saw toothed edge. particularly those static upper blocks.

  • @planbprodigy
    @planbprodigy 10 лет назад

    Where'd ya get those messers?

  • @ruebuscm
    @ruebuscm 13 лет назад

    Yowch! I don't know anything about messerfechten, but should the blades make that sort of perpendicular edge on edge contact? Makes me cringe a little!

  • @AA-nx8ki
    @AA-nx8ki 2 года назад

    There are more sources than just 4.

  • @RelativelyBest
    @RelativelyBest 15 лет назад

    Well, shorter infantry sabers and hangers don't necessarily have a lot of curvature. That's more found on cavalry weapons as I understand it. Some cutlasses kinda looked like messers, even.
    I'm not sure I see why the lack of a nagel would be troublesome, what with the same going for most other swords. Care to elaborate?
    As for the reply thing, RUclips kinda does that sometimes. Not sure why.

    • @danielsterling4918
      @danielsterling4918 4 года назад

      Messer has certain techniques that require it, and gives more options for disarms and binding with the opponents weapon. Besides the obvious extra protection

  • @manga12
    @manga12 13 лет назад

    well its the way that the traditional clothing is used only in festivals, and by reenactors, or people that like to provoke a reaction by say wearing a huge codpiece or stockings too sizes too small.
    though i think some of the cloths from europ are interesting lederhosen for example, and those skirt things the greeks wear, as well as the baggy pants worn in greek dress dont look so manly but it is and has been for many centuries.

  • @djemps7983
    @djemps7983 15 лет назад

    Go Betsy!!!!

  • @ranpleasant
    @ranpleasant 14 лет назад

    Overall I like this. However you have some serious edge-hacks in here. I wonder what damage was suffer by your blunts at 1.53, with thin sharp blades that would probably result in deep nicks that can't be filed out.

  • @ericherstead9494
    @ericherstead9494 8 лет назад

    how long are your blades

    • @andrewcarlson4402
      @andrewcarlson4402 6 лет назад

      Eric Herstead most one-handed messers should come out to about the length of your arm.

  • @brampa5894
    @brampa5894 14 лет назад

    @Schmitti1982 Simply to put it out of harms way.

  • @Dmitry804
    @Dmitry804 10 лет назад

    What name of song at 0:01?

    • @MEMAG
      @MEMAG  10 лет назад

      Duke of Death.

    • @Dmitry804
      @Dmitry804 10 лет назад

      MEMAG Thanks you very much

    • @demityrant1784
      @demityrant1784 9 лет назад

      MEMAG Can't seem to find it, Medieval War has it, but they are clearly not the same song.

  • @gre8
    @gre8 13 лет назад

    @Gonnakillyou Actually its from Medieval Total War II

  • @jomess7879
    @jomess7879 9 лет назад

    nice vids but i thought you were not supposed to block edge on edge.

    • @MegaSweeney123
      @MegaSweeney123 9 лет назад +5

      Only with a katana, or other ridiculously hard steel weapons. Even then, your blade's going to get caught on all sorts of shit from armour, buttons and the like to bone, so you COULD stress about keeping your edge from chipping and rolling, or you could focus on not getting hit by the other guy.
      Incidentally, binding doesn't work unless it's edge on edge, because it's the two blades biting into each other that causes the bind haha

    • @Master-AGN
      @Master-AGN 7 лет назад

      jomess7879 If you practice or observe good FMA you will see many similar techniques with "binding" but without clashing of swords. It is my view, that since these people are recreating from codices, no one has taught them the subtle art of correct distancing. You will also note that they have not distinguished between a soft fluid at the parry and a hard stopping parry to the set up for the next move. Finally, logically a debilitating hard fast parry to the wrist bones is always preferable to steel on steel. Whereas steel on steel parry is a move of desperation or lack of skill.

  • @mailmanofdeth
    @mailmanofdeth 13 лет назад +2

    it seems that European martial arts doesn't get the credit it deserves, everyone only cares about Asian styles,

  • @Ranziel1
    @Ranziel1 13 лет назад +1

    @KissakiSan Japanese, Chinese and others practice martial arts in national clothing. If others can't look past leggings of traditional European costumes, well... I guess they're just immature, so to hell with their opinions anyway.

  • @CenrionPrime
    @CenrionPrime 14 лет назад

    voll lustig die haben damals so geschrieben wie unsere nicht ganz so gebildeten 5 jaehrigen reden, sehr gute arbeit dieses video viele sachen kannte ich schon aber so manches auch nicht

  • @Gaston043
    @Gaston043 10 лет назад

    some of the moves look a bit like jiu jitsu moves.

  • @FURIEREPAZZO
    @FURIEREPAZZO 14 лет назад

    @SirOwenCurunir I have a good messer (steel) from a Czech medieval armoury, if you want i can give you web address... contact me with a private message, i won't do public advertising :)