Longsword techniques: zornhau, oben abnehmen, duplieren, mutieren
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- Warning: the volume is too loud now.
A little bit outdated Zornhau and associated techniques with longsword from Lichtenauers Kunst des Fechtens: Zornhau ort, Bis stercker, Nym es nyder, Oben abnehmen, Duplieren (with Bruch), Mutieren. Source gesellschaft-li...
Anton Kohutovic, Martin Tibensky
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Thank god that these guys are keeping the proud traditions of ancient European martial science alive.
Agreed, this is a part of the European martial tradition, but let's not forget specifically whose style this is.
To anyone interested, this is specifically part of the German fencing tradition, the techniques used here originate from Johannes Lichtenauer.
@@x-rhoden-x6477 And it's important to remember that Lichtnenauer's techniques were learned from Fiore de'i Liberi ;P ;P ;P
@@atomic_wait Lool, You mean Fiore learned from german master, like he said himself ;)
It'd be sweet to have movies with real swordfighting like this that go for a long period of time.:)
Real swordfights DON'T go on for a long time. They're over about as quickly as the video shows.
NoneOfYerBidniz True. But the average swordfight takes about 45 seconds. I've also heard that in a swordfight of 2 people the same skill level, the same style, the same gear/weapons, in a fair setting, and a fair environment, can last ~45 minutes.
***** How many average sword fights have you seen?
***** 1. To parry/block a swing takes about ~1/3 the amount of time that it takes to swing/attack/stab/etc.. And the parry motion is easier to execute than a clean attack (since you are moving less of your body, and its less tiring anyway) (This is an important point and probably the biggest reason why swordfights take longer than one may expect)
2. Well, it does slightly depend on the style of the fighters, but not too much. If they are both super aggressive, then their average fight may last like about 30 seconds (assuming they were fighting sound and carefully). The average swordfighter in general tend to keep their distance a lot, and attack when theres open spots or strategically, or regularly.
3. Whether the first shot lands or not during a fight depends on where the person got hit, but it also depends on the weapon that was used. There was once a duel where 2 men were fighting with rapiers and one guy stabbed the other in the hand, but the guy who got stabbed somehow trapped the rapier so that you couldn't stick it back out of the hand (so it was basically stuck there), then he used his rapier to kill the other guy. Well, thats a legend, at least, but it is physically possible.
4. Swordfighting isn't really comparable to streetfights and ufc fighting and all that unarmed combat stuff. Sword-fighting naturally has a different style, and one difference between the two fighting types is that swordfighters tend to usually keep their distance and parry, block, etc.
***** HEMA seems to be slightly fast paced in my opinion. HEMA is where they teach all the fighting techniques as far as i know, but in a real swordfight you'd probably keep your distance a lot and fight sound and careful, so it would be a bit longer.
Also, I wouldn't say the speed of parrying to striking is that similar. It takes less arm motion to do a simple parry or block, than it takes to do an attack. It is true that attacks can last very small fractions of a second.
Thank you guys for opening my eyes to the beauty and greatness of my Western Heritage. :)
Hope one day Hollywood call you...and that one day I'll be joining you.
After 11 years since my first zornhau ort interpretation I am slowly starting to be a bit more satisfied. The video we did in 2009 shows clearly how one should NOT perform a zornhaw. I wonder how long will it take to be more satisfied with more complicated techniques.
Je dobre vedet jak to nedelat, ale jak to teda delat ? :) Vzhledem k tomu ze jsme pri treningu Zornhau zlomili 3 mece behem jednoho mesice (krome toho ze to nebyly zrvovna kvalitni mece) mam pocit ze delame neco spatne :(
No ja len chytám pocit, že sa v ňom začínam orientovať. Po dobre dlhej dobe. Ale je pravda, že meče určite dostávajú zabrať. Čo tak prísť sa poradiť na Tyrnhaw 2013?
Zatim jeste nejsme uplne rozhodnuti jestli pojedeme, ale rozhodne to zvazujeme. Doufam ze to vyjde.
Nemozem 100% garantovat ako sa vydari tento rocnik, ale ked sa niekto zaobera povodnym sermom tak by som povedal, ze to je skoro povinne:). Nic ine tu totiz nie je:).
:) je to tak. Ostatni ze skupiny uz tam jednou nebo dvakrat byli a rozhodne si to pochvalovali.
Wicked swordplay guys, I didn't know the longsword could be used in that fashion. Deadly effective.
Seen this over a year ago and still can't get over it; I've got to have watched it dozens of times by now...
I love how you used the soundtrack from "The Witcher".
This is how they train at Kaer Mohren.
One of the most impressive longsword demonstrations I've seen on RUclips! Great work - thank you very much for sharing this.
I wish movie directors would realize this historic fencing exists and show something like this in movies for a change!
Definately one of the best longsword videos I've seen. The speed and realism is excellent. Inspiring I say
I love this. The speed and commitment to the techniques is at a level that I thought, at first, that it was free sparring. This is one of the most impressive demonstrations I've ever seen, and the two fencers here clearly don't fuck around at all. I've seen both videos, and I'd really like to see more. The realism is amazing. Thank you very much for posting this.
I am so glad I found this channel. You guys are so fast, fierce, technical and most importantly controlled. Yalls videos, especially this one are perfect to show someone what HEMA is.
Simply amazing. If only movie directors would have fights even half as good as this.
as an Iaidoka I'm very impressed, having studied asian martial arts for a long time because there was non of our own stuff surviving or available. Go for it guys
Dear Jedislayer,
You are a bro and gentleman of the highest order.
Regards,
HEMAbros everywhere.
Simple, basic yet deadly effective! And no doubt such styles of proper longsword fighting wreaked tremendous amounts of bloody havoc on the European battlefields of the late 1400s till the mid 1600s (before it fell out of fashion within the combat context, outside of personal duels!). You guys gave a spectacular demonstration, & what amazing dedication, tenacity, timing & skill!
I've just seen this video and in my 20 years of WMA study, having travelled the world and met so many teachers and students, this is by far the best living application of KdF I have seen to date. The intent, control, body mechanics and technique are superb. I'll be looking for a plane ticket to Slovakia to train with you in 2011 :)
Even as the swords are surely blunt those guys are brave doing that wearing T-shirts. perhaps this gives a elevated sense of real danger and brings realism to their training. If this is so, you guys are insane, and I for one applaud you for it. Impressive speed and intensity.
Musim se pridat k ostatnim - pro me zatim nejlepsi video, ktere jsem nasel na internetu, zabyvajici se volnym bojem. Bezva rychlost a presnost. Je videt, ze mate velke zkusenosti a ze vas to bavi! Moc dekuji!
Preji vse nejlespi a hezke pozdravy, Petr
I keep coming back to watch this. I think this is some of the best longsword fighting on youtube.
This is how this type of sword fighting should be done. Skilfully, and with no silly LARP costumes.
Fantastic vids.
I never tire of seeing it! Have a feeling with this weapon enviable! You are an inspiration to those who study the European Medieval Martial Art! Awesome! :)
This is my favourite historical european martial arts clip on youtube. The power, speed and intesity are really awe inspiring.
Keep making videos like this! :)
You guys are bloody awesome!
It's such a pity that this sport (I don't even know what it's called) is not as widely recognized as Kendo, cause it's so much more entertaining, and I would love to practice it myself, if only such an opportunity existed where I live...
Fantastically done cinematography. It certainly intensifies the bout.
Some thing I would suggest to this channel is uploading clips of fights like this, but having parts where you slow down the fight and explain it. It seems like only other swordsmen could fully appreciate these videos.
Ein schönes Video mit ordentlich Mehrwert, gut gemacht! Danke.
Outstanding video, guys. You really capture the spirit of the German fighting system...brutal efficiency of dealing death. Well done!
you are skilled men, greetings from a Dutch epee fencer!
Holy shit that was some of the most hardcore "sparring" I've seen.
I get what you're saying, and it brings us to a difficult choice. Going with the step undoubtedly brings more impact, but as you say, the hand travels much quicker than the foot. Dividing time like this is tricky business -- for instance, it's easy to trick many people out by stepping after the hands move, as it allows one to choose their positioning after they've forced a reaction. But that can't go very fast with anything but a small step. So I definitely think you make a valid point there.
You are pretty much right. Longswords were usually no heavier than 4 1/2 lbs.
Later models after armor became less widely used were even lighter.
Amazing! I was directed here after watching "Fechten mit dem langen Schwert", and I was thoroughly impressed! Thanks for uploading.
Hello Robert,
thank you very much for your compliments.
We used standard practise sword from Jan's offer. We also used Pavel Moc swords. They are not sparring swords, but rigid and 2kg swords with widened root of the blades.
I'm really glad that I can adjust the speed of the video. Dang there be some slick moves!
Japanese swordsmanship isn't an Olympic event either, and it's just as exciting as this style of sparring. Additionally these are choreographed moves, which is why it looks so good. If you look up freestyle long sword sparring it doesn't look like this because both sides are trying to attack each other instead of one allowing the other to perform techniques.
these are the most aggressive and clear sword fighting videos I have seen. I don't know much about sword fight, but I like this.
Spectacular, in the speed, skill, timing, techniques & power utilized to full, fearsome effect! That demonstration above was dazzling, just incredible in its amazing professionalism. Greatly Enjoyed watching that!
Great stuff, one of the best HEMA videos I've seen for sure. Already served as help and inspiration for our training, I hope the positive feedback encourages you to make more of them.
All the best from Slovenia
Thumbs up for Witcher 1 music
I have both of them. Both are very good. You should not make a mistake by choosing anyone.
Yours are some of the first vids I watched about WMA, and you guys blew me away. I still watch your vids, because they still amaze me. very fast, very skilled, very impressive. Hope that one day you can cover schielhau, krumphau, and schietelhau
amz!!!You are the grandmaster of sword.
A piece of advice I like is to only tense when connecting, then relax for your "recovery". Use your energy with control, but fiercely, exactly when you intend to strike and then remove tension as soon as you connect or whiff it. Also try to ensure your step connects with the ground the same moment your blade connects with face. This way, you deliver a powerful strike, but if you bind, your relaxation following the attack will make fuhlen easier. Your initial power also prevents too weak a bind.
@SwordsAndBeer Hello. Thank you. These variations are based mainly on general Lichtenauers techniques described in all manuscript like Peter von Danzig, Sigmund Ringeck, etc. There are Zornhaw ort, bis sterk er wider, oben abnehmen, duplieren, mutieren.
Thank you all guys. Swords we use are described in the link in description.
@kohutovic Máte apsolutnu pravdu suhlasím s Vami. Ospravedlnujem sa. Je pravda ze som si neprečítal názov videa a teda že je to len nácvyk technik. Scénický Šerm som aktývne robil 11 rokov a samozrejme som sa venoval aj reálnemu šermu preto som si dovolil opnovať tomuto videu. Ešte raz sa ospravedlnujem a ako nácvik technik to beriem :) S úctou Aratron
Both thrust is possible and each version is suitable in slightly different situation. Sometimes is better to do it with KS (kurtze schneide) upwards sometime downwards. It depend on the style of opponents cut. Both versions are proved by manuscripts. In this video, you can see both. Direct thrust is done in the most sequences when zornort continues to winden, duplieren, abnehmen ...
@kohutovic i saw this for the first time about a week ago and i am completely fascinated. like many, i had always thought of western-style swordfighting as boring hack and slash, but this video really opened my eyes to this lost art of western martial-arts and I cannot wait to begin training. Also: POST MOAR VIDS THIS SH**T IS AWESOME!! :)
@MarkHolgate No, there is no schiller. Schiller is executed with kurtze schneide to the schweche of opponents sword and schiller Indes/simultaneously hits his head.
Zornhau (with ort) is direct cut but slightly to the opponents sword and if he is weak/waich I throw my point to his head or brest (two version lange schneide upwards or kurtze schneide upwards).
There is some serious action going on here, holy moly!
The user Skallagrim sent me here, if you are into European Swordfighting you'll like his channel! (:
I have written you PM, so shortly: rounded edge helps gliding of metal surfaces like helmets, something square that can better bite into it will deliver more punch, easier to make concussion or any disabling strike desirable. Well stocks build specially for knights and halfswording can strike throu mail, well most obviously there is vast amouts of techniques around sticking your point into armpits, and so on (talhoffer for example has many variations in this)
@holmganghamburg There are measures and weight in the very end of my second video about Zwerchhau.
@Chihab2112 see my next video. At the very end of it you can see used swords. Or check our webpage.
@hindenwolf Thank you very much. Yes, it is german longsword fencing, Lichtenauers tradition.
Thank you. O tebe sme nikde dlho nepoculi, som uz myslel, ze nie si pri serme. vdaka
that looks like amazing fun, u guys have clearly trained ALOT.
Hello, thank you. I am writing about swords in the article linked in the video description.
this video caused me to get so hyped when i saw Kylo Ren's lightsaber thinking that we might get some technical fights. and all we got was an angry toddler flailing.
HI!
Enjoyed this video very much, one of my favorite techniques is in fact the Zornhau :)
I always start with it, get the opponent a bit confused. Great technique and great vid.
THX.
TOD from ARS ENSIS
Beautiful. Upon seeing this, I instantly wish to start training and learning.
@hindenwolf
I totally agree! One of the best Longsword videos I've seen!
Yup. As long as you can manoeuvre both hands on the hilt, you're golden.
Great video!
I liked especially how you changed in the Ochs guard to hit with the point
Love this video. The way you guys train is inspiring! Greetings from NYC, Hopefully I can get over and train one day.
A Random Witcher likes this! all respect to you guys :)
I keep coming back to this vid. Awsome.
This made longsword fencing so epic!
So when do we get a new video? You guys are awesome..I always use your vids to introduce people the reality of European swordplay.
I do some, but I've looked into it and found some very effective guidelines from a book called "Never Gymless", so I'm goind to try that next :)
@kohutovic I understand that it's not so risky for you since you've been doing it for so long but for the more inexperienced fighter it is. I still often get hit on my hands so I wouldn't dream of doing this with metal, I like my hands intact thank you very much :P
in historical manuscripts there are more techniques which deal with unarmoured fencing than armoured, generally unarmoured would be for things like duels and street fights rather than battle. Wiktenauer is a good site to visit if you wish to look at some of these manuscripts
Thank you, we appreciate it a lot. We will try to prepare hopefully more interesting stuff soon.
You guys're great!!! the skills are powerful but also delicateful.
I agree that it looks like a shiller, but that's only because of the camera angles I think. It is easy to confuse a zornhau with a shiller if the zornhau is not held high like in some manuals like Ringeck, but I've seen others hold the sword the way they are and they aren't striking with the short edge. Great video btw!
Fearsome intensity.. Great work ..
Amazing, great aggression and speed.
There were many different longsword designs but typically you would expect them to weigh only around 3lbs/1.36kg. So yes you could absolutely achieve these speeds with a real sword. People always seem to overestimate how heavy longswords were from the myth that they are just blunt force clubs.
Also remember these are unarmoured fighting styles, you wouldn't see fully armoured knights fighting like this. These techniques wouldn't work against armour anyway wince you can't just cut through it.
According to the link in the description:
"In the video we are fencing with the swords by Pavel Moc, 104 cm long blades and 2 kg weight and training swords with 100 cm long blades and 1,7 kg weight. Both types have widened root of the blade for better safety of hand."
Yes, these are techniques taken from the manuals written by the masters of the day (mid-1400's, give or take). Swords are not heavy or cumbersome. A typical longsword weighs about 3.5 lbs. The swords shown are flexible for safety, but are usually the same weight as the real thing... they are designed to reduce impact, not be lighter. They are made by Ensifer, and are in the 3.5 lb range. I have a Pavel Moc "federschwert" which is closer to 4 lbs, and is a joy to handle.
@roentgen571 : Depends on when you were talking about. There in the High Medieval period most masters had their own schools of defense throughout Europe, mostly in England, Germany, France, and Spain. They had many students that were taught these techniques. No, not a large percentage of them did this or could, but they were also not "few". Most normal infantry only got basic training, and would be cut down by a professional fighting Knight or trained swordsman.
this is the first time ive checked this out its amazing
I'm gonna get that sound track for when driving to training sessions!
The. Sword fighting was pretty good as well. ( Understatement ! )
please post some sparring videos, these demonstration of technique videos are impressive, but i want to see what your sparring looks like with everything put together
@halfassedfart If I describe it it will probably look like in the video. But I use more body rotation, it comes more from above, and the gap between contact of swords and hitting chest is very very short. And yes, I started to thrust into neck and chest as well. You can see here only head hits.
I really like the energy, really fast.
these guys are the most intense LS users i've ever seen.
@nowymail Hi nowymail, the techniques shown are for unarmoured combat. In full armour, the sword is held like a short spear with the left hand on the blade (called "half-sword" or "armour hand"). This is done to to seek out the armour's weak points (joints, down the cuffs of the gauntlets etc.) or to assist in grappling.
that is what happens when you fight with sharp pointed objects. I'm glad more people are starting to see it!
velice pekne chalani. dore tempo. hodne zdaru.
Krucinal chlapi.... : O sanka az po zem. Takto to ma vyzerat. Moj nekonecny obdiv
It also depends on HOW you move your foot. Many HEMAists merely swing the leg to step. More optimally, move your foot by twisting the hip, which is much faster, allowing the step and cut to move more in unison. Works great, give it a shot if you haven't already. :)
Simply amazing! Would love to see more vids like this, keep up the great work!
@gurkfisk89
I'm a bit dumbfounded here, to be honest - there's plenty of self-defense oriented martial arts instructors here (Krav maga and stuff), that much I knew, but to think that someone would actually teach the longsword techniques around here, and in close proximity to me, at that...
Not in my wildest dreams I would've imagined such a thing!
Thanks a bunch, man!
Have to add this, love the exchange at 55-57 seconds
@halfassedfart Hello,
I didn't see the Lichtenauer model form Pavel Moc. Are there any pictures online? Those swords were our custom design.
@maeljin Hi. There are both variants in our video. We wanted to show both because both are possible in certain situation. e.g. Falkner and Talhoffer depict Zornhau ort with short edge downwards. My choice depens on the situation (distance, opponents oberhau trajectory)
Regards,
Anton
Haha, I agree with you completely. All martial arts deserve respect as they all have their individual strengths and weaknesses. The focus should be more on the fighter and how they fight rather than the style which they use. The only reason people think European martial arts are weaker than Asian martial arts is because Asian martial arts are constantly displayed as superior in movies and films. This coming from a guy that practices Asian martial arts.
Witcher music.... so appropriate.
sully9088 Too bad the Witcher himself fights like an idiot who has seen too many Hollywood movies.
I hear you. It is real flashy and dramatic. To someone who doesn't train in real swordplay though it can be entertaining. I bet if I actually trained I wouldn't like the combat. Haha!
sully9088 I do train and I think that the witcher isn't that bad. I rather see flashy spinning moves than the usual "one cut with ridiculous overswing once every 10 second" that other games have, for example dark souls.
gurkfisk89 Absolutely. Those flashy spins are less useless than most people think. The HEMA techniques are perfect for duells, but Gerald is fighting multiple opponents for the most part. Hitting more than one target effectively is quite impossible, but that's not the point. If there's only one opponent you can easily keep your blade between the two of you, but as soon as there are two it gets a little complicated. Now imagine fighting five... You need to stay ready to attack and parry to every side. You need to turn yourself often (which nearly destroys all your pretty footwork practise) and you need to be able to change your focus any second. If you cannot do all of this at once, you're pretty much dead, except you manage to distract everyone that's out of reach or sight...
You wouldn't believe how flashy some technically outstanding fights can look when there is such a difference in numbers. ^^
Alexander Bürger sure.. but then geralt does it while facing one opponent, or when facing an opponent who's far away, rather than a lunging stab, he does a stupid spin that gets himself hit by an enemy at his buddies side.
Read that article, it was really interesting and telling. It shows that they themselves buy into these katana myths. It is a shame it never came to be, I would have loved to see these tests. I suspect the katana wouldn't do much against plate armor, and that it would be at a disadvantage against the rapier for the unarmored combat portion. I would enjoy being wrong about that though.
That one is very good. I can also recommend Pushing the Limit by Al Cavadlo and Overcoming Gravity by Steven Low. Calistetics are awesome, but complicated sometimes.
Have fun