Power Moons as a Reward System | Super Mario Odyssey Long-Form Critique Episode 0
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- Опубликовано: 9 окт 2018
- Welcome to the Super Mario Odyssey Long-Form Critique series; an exhaustive, detailed, complete dive into Super Mario Odyssey's design -- Moons, Captures, Level Design, Bosses, you name it!
In this Precursor Analysis, we will discover what Mario Odyssey's Moons are all about and lay some groundwork for the upcoming exhaustive analysis series.
Next episode will begin our Super Mario Odyssey journey with our very first Kingdom Analysis -- the Cap Kingdom.
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people saying accessibility and more thoughtful, engaging gameplay cant coexist are the same people who say its okay for a movie to be absolute garbage because its “just for kids”
EXACTLY! But also, Mario Odyssey is actually anti-accessible because there's a lot tied to motion controls and no way to remap it or alternatives. There are a ton of unused buttons that they just didn't bother mapping, so some disabled folk just can't play certain parts of the game. I don't remember what exactly is locked behind motion controls but I mention it at some point in the videos.
They may get satisfied with moons early, but that doesn't mean they'll be satisfied with the whole game early.
Very true! While this video focused on Moons, the entire upcoming series will focus on the gameplay, so we'll have some fun diving into that.
Hey, Corvus. I found out about your channel after reading your comment on Matthewmatosis's Super Mario 3D World video and watched all of your Odyssey content and a few other videos on your channel. I absolutely love your content. I really appreciate how objective your are with your critiques and how consistent you are with your criticisms.
As a fan of Mario (SM64 being the first game I've ever played) it's been kinda frustrating seeing the blind overwhelming praise handed out to this game when the way Mario moves, the reward structure and level design were handled so much more carefully in previous games. The star system in SM64 is virtually perfect and his move set is so much more dynamic because it's not plagued by dominant moves like Odyssey. Wall jump has been dying a slow painful death with every game since Sunshine and no move from the series Mario's is as dynamic and complex as the dive/slide. It's a shame we got the roll instead because it feels like a block of cheese rolling along tarmac on a hot summer day.
Well I'm really happy I found your channel and I look forward to see where you take it in the future and what games your cover next. I hope that you get the subscribers you deserve and good luck!
Oh hey, I love Matthewmatosis, that's great that you saw my comment! I'm very glad to hear you enjoy my content. I don't even want to think about the number of hours invested in the Odyssey series thus far, so it's always great to hear someone enjoy them so much :)
I 100% agree with everything you said. I started this series to look at the design since I was very confused by the overwhelming praise of the game. It's much easier to digest why something works or doesn't by breaking it down, such as the insanely underused captures even though they're the "main focus" of the game. Odyssey puzzles me, I tell ya! And I'm probably one of the few that doesn't like how Mario controls, so I'm glad to know another! And oh boy, I really don't like the movement options since the roll and long jump feel so slow. But you already know my thoughts at this point ha!
RUclips is a tough platform to crack so I appreciate the well wishes. I hope my future content doesn't disappoint!
"Element of surprise" I actually considered to be surprisingly low, because you always knew WHAT you were collecting, as well as most doors/paintings directly leading to a Moon, rather than some challenge with a reward. Instead of teleporting you, through a painting, to a seperate Kingdom and giving you some hybrid challenge combining assets of both Kingdoms, you just get a Moon. The painting thing is soo bad it kills me.
I think the element of surprise derives more from the fact that you stumble upon almost every Moon, but, you're right, not only do the Moons become predictable, but every door, every painting, every room, there's really not much that's surprising.
I thought of it like that experiment with the rat and the button that gives food. If the button provides food inconsistently, then the rats press the button even more. You’ll always get food/a moon, but the variance in exactly when is the “surprising” part. As you play the game, you’ll get moons seemingly at random due to the lack of any spike in challenge level.
Obviously this isn’t relevant for the actions that always supply a moon (the paintings and stuff like possession puzzles), but I think the world moons apply for the most part.
@@niyamitchell6818 SKINNER BOX! As a psychology student, I love you now.
Moons actually unlock costumes in Crazy Cap in the post game.
Unlocking costumes based on your collected Moons doesn't become a factor until after the credits roll, so it's a bonus that the player isn't even aware of. Regardless, costume unlocks are laid out as goals that are difficult to actively target rather than passively obtain due to the sheer number of Moons in the game.
11:38 LOL I am dead. Great points about the moons. They are kinda just plopped all over the place. It is weird to see how easy some of those late game optional moons are (but the final level is crazy tricky?). Shouldn't the optional late-game moons ramp up the challenge?
Very excited to watch the rest of these!
I hope you enjoy them! :)
you’re totally right about the audience the game was made for, and ye, it totally did accomplish what it set out to. Ouf
Well... I guess it depends what you consider as an accomplishment when the captures are shallow and often non-existent and Moon placements enforce addictive tendencies rather than promote exploration. The design is against its own apparent principles in the first place, making it even more apparent to what Odyssey's goals truly are. Whether what's behind the smoke and mirrors is good or bad, the potential is there, and the game would be praised on all sides rather than one. Like I said... those who played long enough to see what's going on... and those who didn't. So I encourage you to engage with the series and provide constructive criticism or feedback if you believe the accomplishments to be worthwhile for their intended audience despite the possibility of a more rewarding experience for all parties.
As someone who really enjoyed SMO's main story, this fascinates me, and explains a lot. See, I finished the main game, and was hoping to get to Dark and Darker Side because hey, I was really enjoying the game, why not? But eventually I just kinda...got sick collecting Power Moons? I haven't even hit Dark Side yet, haha. 😅 I wonder if this'll maybe explain it, the oversaturation of moons already makes sense as the overarching/part of the explanation.
I really hope this doesn't get disliked into oblivion; even if you love a game, it's important to recognize and understand its flaws. Good stuff (I found your Security Breach video first, and I enjoy your style of critiquing)!
Thank you so much! :) I'm hoping to continue this series and also readdress moons as a reward system since it's the fundamental crux of why I think Odyssey fails, along with Odyssey's very strange lack of captures and weirdly trivial "challenges." I recently played Bowser's Fury and it handles that type of collectathon much better.
RUclips's algorithm sucks. A channel like this should have been suggested to me ages ago.
Thank you for giving me a chance! I'm working hard at releasing even higher quality videos, so hopefully I won't let you down!
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies I just started playing Bowser's Fury, and it seems to fix a lot of problems Odyssey had. Thoughts?
@@meh2285 I actually haven't played Bowser's Fury yet, but I imagine I should play that before continuing the series in case I can reference it.
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Yeah it really surprised me how good it is. It expands the open structure of Odyssey, but has infinitely less bloat, in addition to introducing some new and novel concepts. I honestly wasn't a big fan of 3D world, but Bowser's Fury justified the purchase for me. It's still on sale for $40 if you haven't purchased it yet.
Great analysis.
How about rewarding the player by increasing a skill every time a moon is collected? Imagine they show you a moon that you can't reach, then after collecting several you'd become stronger, faster, taller or whatever and then you can reach it, this would make the moon collection more than a requirement with no gameplay effect but a necessity and a feedback loop since you can visually measure your progress.
I do like the idea of showing players something that is not yet obtainable, either as a goal or a hint that it's possible to get up there in the future. I don't think I agree on increasing skill stats though, since it sounds like arbitrary RPG stats in a game that doesn't really need it (although I suppose it depends on how it's handled). Instead, perhaps new skills or movement options can be unlocked via Moons? Maybe certain areas within Kingdoms are locked off until enough Moons have been collected? Maybe the capture system can be tied in somehow?
Although rewarding the player for collecting a reward doesn't really solve the underlying issue. I think what you're getting at is a good idea to discuss, but the fundamental issue would still be present -- the issue that there's no satisfaction in collecting the Moon in the first place. The Moons really need a complete overhaul.
Let me know if I understood you correctly!
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Hey yeah, you got what I was saying, and you're right. Rewarding the player by unlocking new skills after collecting moons is just a bandaid. What would you suggest? to get rid of the moons completely? I'm interested in this just because I'd like to create a similar game one day.
@@alxleiva Reduce the number of Moons to increase their value and then develop meaningful gameplay. There's simply not enough challenge and satisfaction in reaching the Moons. Where's the satisfaction in ground-pounding a glowing spot sitting right out in the open for a Moon? Or, heck, there are Moons literally floating out in the open that you just walk into. Every Moon that doesn't feel satisfactory to pick up or feels like an undeserved reward ends up devaluing the entire reward system.
I guess you could say Odyssey's Moons are presented like Banjo's Jiggies (or Mario 64's Stars) but placed like Banjo's Musical Notes. It doesn't mesh together very well. I would experiment with placing something like Musical Notes in Odyssey and then significantly reduce the number of Moons; then focus on designing the game around the capture system and platforming.
Speaking of... the problem with Odyssey that probably disappoints me the most is how the capture system is very rarely used in the game. [And this is something I provide evidence for in my (ongoing) series.]
If you're looking to create a 3D Platformer -- I'd suggest playing more of them to get a grasp of what works and what doesn't. I'm personally a fan of A Hat in Time. It has its issues but it has charm and insanely unique chapters. I've heard New Super Lucky's Tale isn't bad, but I haven't played it yet. From the little I've played of Yooka Laylee, everything is spread too thin. Feels kinda empty and tedious. I'd look to Mario 3D World for a more linear experience that experiments with different ideas and platforming.
This just feels like you're describing literally every nintendo game. Almost all of them have an easy and repetitive gameplay loop.
Sorta? To an extent maybe. But the design varies significantly between games. A game can be easy but also engaging and rewarding.
This comment is a moon.
What are your thoughts on Sunshine?
Despite having some of the worse objectives in the series (Rico 8, Pianta 5, Lilly Pad Ride, ect), I think the game is unfairly panned for its padding when Galaxy 2 literally makes you replay the game to collect 120 green stars in order to unlock the final level. Blue coins might be poorly implemented, but they don't gate content like in Galaxy 2. Even Galaxy 1's comet medals are lazy, especially compared to those of Galaxy 2. 64 is the only Mario game without significant padding, but that game still has the most water levels, which are kind of lame because Mario's movement isn't as interesting under water (wet dry world is good though).
Sunshine also has the most open-ended level design than any other game in the series. 64's levels over-rely on the "mountain" template, where the course circles around a hill until reaching the top. The Galaxy games are mostly linear, but they're fine for what they are. Odyssey has some wide open spaces, but it often ends up bottlenecking you into linear sections. Sunshine exceeds the most at giving the player sandbox-style levels where they can just play around in, and while the objectives don't always embrace that, it's still worth commending.
Some of the objectives necessary to beat Sunshine are definitely sub par (fighting that flower four times was probably excessive), but when you consider just how many objectives in Galaxy rely on motion control/pointer nonsense instead of Mario's core move set, it doesn't seem fair to condemn Sunshine when even the more simple tasks are generally supported by strong level design that is complemented by Mario's movement. And that's not to mention that Sunshine does have some genuinely great objectives like the secrets/red coin secrets and the objectives that embrace the level design like Rico 3 and Pinna 3.
Sunshine also has the best movement in the series, retaining the physical nature of Mario's movement from 64 while expanding on movement options and polishing up some of 64's quirks. Yes, they removed the long jump, but the addition of the spin jump (which is much better than the spin jump from Odyssey) and the options provided by Flood (like the hover and ability to slide on puddles you create) more than make up for it IMO. Sunshine's movement is also much more responsive than Odyssey's, which has a slight delay for some reason.
Sunshine might not be perfect, but when I hear people like Joseph Anderson compare Sunshine to Odyssey it really annoys me, because Sunshine has so much more going for it than Odyssey does, and that's not even to mention how unfair it is to criticize its padding while giving the Galaxy games a pass. Which game is best might be down to personal taste, but there are objectively things that Sunshine does better than every other Mario game, and it's a shame that it doesn't get credit for that.
It has been a while since I've played Sunshine and Galaxy, and I've never played Galaxy 2. I actually should replay Sunshine before the next Odyssey video because I think I'm going to revisit the Moon as a reward system topic, and I'd like to make some comparisons to Sunshine and maybe 64. 64 is interesting because its Stars aren't usually difficult, but they're usually unique and fit the stages super well. They fit the theme and offer a mini-puzzle, depending on the Star, neither of which Odyssey embodies in its Moons. And yeah, I find Odyssey's movement sluggish. I mention it briefly in the Sand Kingdom video, but I also know that most people love Odyssey's movement for some reason, so it's a difficult topic to approach.
Anyway, sorry I can't comment on your Sunshine and Galaxy comparisons, but I appreciate you sharing that! It's interesting to think about, and I'll most likely replay them. Maybe I'll stream them, but, of course, that probably depends on where the channel is at by the time I do so. I'm trying to get more videos out so we'll see where that lands the channel and audience interest in streams.
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies If you replay sunshine, I recommend emulating using Dolphin because it's easy to get it running at 60 fps wide-screen. It's a great game either way, but 60 fps is definitely the best way to play it, and it's unfortunate that 3D All Stars didn't make that simple change.
You're probably going to get a lot of dislikes xD because that's what happens when you say something negative about Mario Odyssey. I actually agree with you though, trying to 100% Odyssey made me not like the game as much. It started getting repetitive and boring pretty fast and I started to see a lot of flaws in the game. And I never did get all the moons I think I got to like 600 and quit cause it got repetitive and boring. It was getting boring WAY before I got to 600 moons. xD
Yeah... that's a reason why this video exists, to help point people in the right direction and to discuss the Reward System itself. You're a good example of what I hear from many people, that the end game really kills the game. Thank you for sharing :)
I think you logic is flawed in your argument that the game only expects you to get 124 moons and stop playing, if that were the case there would be no reason at all for a postgame
My perspective on odyssey is that it has the same approach as botw in terms of what it expects of the player, in the sense that it has a lot of content but it leaves it up to the player how much they want to consume before they're satisfied
Stopping to play the game after getting 500 moons is not considered quitting, it's just that you had your fill and you're done, that's why there aren't any big rewards for collecting 880 moons, the game has been done with what it has to show you for some time so it's a safe assumption that anyone playing for that point is doing so just because they enjoy playing and not for some arbitrary self obligation to get 100%
Right, we have the same logic. The game doesn't expect you to stop playing after 124 Moons. Nobody is going to stop playing after the minimum requirements (in fact, I mention how the minimum requirements don't really play a factor). Even then, players have that option. Each and every player can play however long they want, collecting however many Moons they want, before putting the game down for good. Players can stop once they're satisfied and not have to deal with any burnout if they don't want to. Of course, this is considering players who enjoy the gameplay in the first place.
Regarding "quitting", I used that word for both a player stopping briefly until the next time they pull up the game and a player stopping for good, so the word was used loosely. Whether you're quitting until next time or quitting forever, you can consider that as having your fill. I apologize if that wasn't quite clear!
Well, i liked this video up until you called me a mostly mobile casual gamer and/or a five-year old.
My target audience analysis at the end is not a callout to those who enjoy it, but rather who I think the target audience is (based on the reward system), no matter who actually enjoys it. So I am by no means attacking you. My writing has improved since this video, so I know the 5-year-old bit can be a bit abrasive. You can think of it as a kids game instead. It's perfectly fine to find enjoyment in Odyssey and not fit the target audience description.