The Lake Kingdom Dissection | Super Mario Odyssey Long-Form Critique Episode 4
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- Опубликовано: 27 янв 2020
- Welcome back to the Super Mario Odyssey Long-Form Critique episodic series that discusses and dissects each Super Mario Odyssey Moon, Capture, Boss, and so on.
In this episode, we continue our journey with Super Mario Odyssey's Lake Kingdom -- home to Lake Lamode, Cheep Cheeps, Zippers, Lochladies, and 42 Moons.
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Yay!!!! A new Super Mario Odyssey Analysis video that shows how little value and effort moons take. ;)
Great video. You make some of the most enjoyable video game-related long-form content on RUclips, it’s baffling that your channel isn’t more popular.
We have to draw more people towards his content, but that RUclips Algorithm sure won't help.
Thank you, that's very kind of you to say! Honestly I'm surprised I have over 600 subs in the first place. I'm very grateful.
@@DesignFrameCaseStudiesyou deserve it! Keep it up!
Just finished binging all of these Odyssey videos of yours man. You do a fantastic job showing all of the game's numerous design faults and it's a crime that you don't have more views. These videos are extremely well made and I hope that more people get to see your amazing content in the future.
That's very kind of you :) Thank you!
I love long form analysis content and I can't help but marvel at the quality and effort put into your's. Extremely underrated stuff!
Thank you so much! :)
Watched all of the Odyssey vids and a few on the side that caught my attention. Your voice is really fun to listen to, your cadence maintains its energy, and I like how in depth you talk about certain things. Definitely earned a sub.
it's been a while since your last video, but I'll be waiting for the next one. Keep doing what you're doing.
Thank you so much! That means a lot. I hope I won't disappoint :)
Beautiful job! These are the reason I subscribed originally, and I’ll be back on the sub list.
Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies You're welcome- you're the one making this awesome content.
Maybe at the end of the series, you could do a giant video on how you would fix Odyssey's problems. That'd be cool.
Enjoying these videos of yours, by the moon kingdom, I'm curious on your thoughts of the lore of this game's moon and power moon, because the finale after bowser's fight seems to suggest there's some vague lore related reason of bowser or something causing the insides of the moon to shoot out of itself or something
Great video, I totally agree with you about the game's lack of rewarding rewards, but I have a question regarding Hat Trampolines : weren't they already introduced in the Sand Kingdom ? So what is the point of explaining them again one level afterwards ?
You're right, there were a couple Hat Trampolines in the Sand Kingdom. And since they were on the Story path, the Lake Kingdom didn't need to introduce them again. The reintroduction is most likely a consequence of the linear level design.
I imagine the reuse of Hat Trampolines is similar to the Spark Pylon capture but to a lesser extent. If Mario needs to get from point A to point B, the easy solution is to place a Spark Pylon regardless of the aesthetic or theme of the kingdom. The Lake Kingdom seems to be the primary home for Hat Trampolines but are sometimes sporadically placed in kingdoms when the designers need a method to elevate Mario somehow. Although I believe this is mostly the case in the Sand and Snow Kingdoms and some future Subareas, but I may be forgetting some.
However, Hat Trampolines are more respectable in that thematic variations do exist -- namely the trampolines in Cascade and the uplifting winds in Snow (or even the Gushen capture in Seaside).
If you're instead asking what's the point of me explaining them again: the Lake Kingdom uses them more than any other kingdom and they're one of the first interactable objects. I also wanted this to be a more standalone episode since I've restructured how I handle this series (although admittedly I also forgot about the Hat Trampolines in Sand because otherwise I probably would've mentioned the Sand Kingdom in this video).
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies thanks for answering ! Yes I totally agree, Spark Pylons and Hat Trampolines being reused throughout the game looks very lazy and breaks immersion for me.
And no no, I was asking why THE GAME places them in an introductory setting TWICE IN A ROW, this is really redundant
Yeah, the Lake Kingdom in general is pretty lackluster. I would have liked to see more involved level design but the game in general lacks challenge and depth.
seeing you provide harsh but totally accurate criticisms of such a good game is really interesting to me. if I were a game designer I’d pay you to come criticize my game so I could make it better
That's a really nice thing to say, thank you! I'd love to make videos on indie and Early Access titles to help improve them, but I'm not sure how I'd get a general audience to be interested in watching those videos. Perhaps people would be interested down the road.
I just subbed to this channel because I like the content
I'm very glad to hear you enjoy the content! :)
This has been a very enjoyable series, I hope we get the Wooded Kingdom soon.
Thank you for watching! I'll be returning with some more episodes of Design Frame before the Wooded Kingdom video. The Odyssey series is quite a lot to handle as you can imagine.
Woah thats pretty swag, honestly.
Story wise, for some of the kingdoms "artifacts" or whatever Bowser want to call them like the wedding dress, I never get why the locals just have one dress on display, and make me wonder if they ever sell it or just plan to stare at it like people do post game with the binding ring(stuff like that I get, but hell, for the woods kingdom, I'm just like let boswer and the aliens take the flowers and plant new ones somewhere else and not have a constant panic attack lol in the moment on my first play throughs I just try to dumb down my brain to get by, but even then it's almost like some of these kingdoms suffer from 1st world problems lol I'm being a bit ranty, but a easy solution for the wedding dress to have more weight to me plot wise, just have Bowser steal that, and burn all the exclusive lake kingdom cotton crops and maybe a factory so noone else could copy his idea.)
Speaking of the cheep cheep flashlight eyes, it'd be great if they just add in a ghost mansion kingdom with some underwater bits with boos and cheep cheeps and have the boos keep their light weakness from 3d world, that'd give the flashlight eyes purpose besides "looking cool"
That'd be a great use of the weird flashlight eyes! Cap and Ruined are the closest to a ghost/dark kingdom but not much was done with them.
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies yeah, and I'm still annoyed with balloon Luigi as I call him in Odyssey lol, if they added a mansion kingdom(no weirder and just as interesting as the final product cascade and sand kingdoms if somehow not more so lol) I would of been amused to control a boo because of boo Mario in Galaxy(plus personally I really like boos lol)
Infact if they mixed the ice theme with a mansion kingdom, that'd be a interesting combo(because classic cold feeling of the dead and stuff like that, plus it'd make more sense than the weird thing Bowser did(that I don't remember them explaining) in sand kingdom that magically just half freezed it over.), Only issue is if they keep the same moon team, I'm sure they'll make us all just facepalm again lol
a better way for bowser to not look stupid would be, in the beginning cutscenes, have something disastrous happen that causes him to loose the items in such a way that theyre scattered all over the kingdoms. maybe the dumb rabbits dont work for bowser and for some reason want to foil his plans, while still being antagonistic towards mario. then maybe mario could restore the items to their correct places and expand on the story of the world and why the items are important to their owners
just spit balling tho, idk if that makes any sense
The items are owned by the kingdoms though, so it'd be weird if Bowser was stealing them if they're just his items that he somehow lost. I think for Lake Kingdom, it'd be better if the Broodals weren't there and instead the game expanded on the potential story threads that I mentioned, like restoring their town into what it used to be.
You take as much time you want to for the next video.
I think I'm planning for two other videos before the next Odyssey vid, but I definitely don't want to take as much time between Odyssey vids. Otherwise the series will never finish!
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Good to hear!!
next time im zipping smth ill be thinking of this
I appreciate it
Hope you didn't give up the series mate(hope you make it to new donk city eventually atleast)
I'm so sorry man, I'm hard at work on the next video trying to capitalize on my recent traction, but not sure when the next Odyssey one will be. They'll definitely happen though, since I still have the Odyssey footage and a bunch of partial scripts of each kingdom. The good news is though that I've improved my videos even more over time, so the next Odyssey ones should be worth the wait... maybe not three years worth, but ya know lol
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies oh I see, well I'm glad you haven't given up on them, looking forward to it(it'd be intriguing if you do a odyssey vs totk video with who got the better game design lol only 2 hours in and I don't know what the korok system is like, but I'd be surprised if they don't do something ludicrous with that lol)
@@thejonbrownshow8470 I've been curious about TotK, so I actually might work on a video for that. I've never been a fan of the empty world and durability system of BotW, but now that TotK builds off of BotW, this may actually be a non-empty world! I guess we'll see!
I’m still holding out hope for a continuation of this series 😢
I definitely want to, but after the Outer Wilds video I took some time off the channel to work on a board game, and now that the last video blew up in popularity, I have to follow-up with standalone videos to try and maintain that momentum. Series like this that are split into parts don't perform as well in comparison. But I'll still revisit it, I just don't know when. My videos take so long to make that I want to make them all but I can't, or at least not yet 😢
wish you'd continued this!
I'm glad you enjoyed it! I still want to continue it, but unfortunately I just haven't yet. I have part of a draft for it at least, so I'll focus back on that hopefully in the near future.
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies looking forward to this & the other long form stuff you do!
@@partlyawesome Thank you :)
2 minutes in and i just have to say DID YOU NOT STOP TO THINK THAT THE BROODALS GAVE THE STUFF TO BOWSER RIGHT AWAY BEFORE WAITING FOR MARIO???? OR THAT BOWSER HIMSELF STOLE SOME OF THESE THINGS???? OR ALL OF THEM?????
I don't think it's possible that the Broodals gave Bowser the dress already since Bowser is in the other kingdom stealing more goods at the same time. Either way, it'd be faster if the Broodals just moved on instead of letting us catch up without slowing us down at all. It's super weird. I know the story is supposed to be garbage but story motivation and consistency is still important if the game is going to attempt to have one.
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies assuming the broodals didn't preform a hand-off before waiting, why not assume bowser stole the dress himself, along with the other goods???? then the broodals are specifically only there to focus on delaying mario - giving bowser a slightly looser schedule, which he seems to need story-wise (even if not gameplay-wise).
I don't recall the dialogue but that might give away whether they're the ones who stole the items in their kingdoms or not. Bowser could be going from kingdom to kingdom but when we split into two kingdom choices, you would think he'd be at both locations then rather than only one.
So you used to have like a crow as your profile pic right? Am I remembering that right?
Yes! I rebranded when I released the FNaF Security Breach video. So there are probably mentions of "Corvus" and such in several of my videos.
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies i lost my original account between now and your last upload so when I was clicking around your channel I was SO confused for a moment. Super happy to see you back tho, keep up the great work!
Ah, welcome back! Thank you for the kind words :)
its such a shame how underwhelming the Broodals boss fights are. they are like the secondary main antagonists and their boss battles just feel so useless like it doesnt feel like u even need to be fighting them as opposed to a giant mech terrorizing New Donk or the octopus in the beach kingdom
Yeah, they're so anticlimactic and boring. I think they should've removed that boss fight and instead focus on other narrative elements to flesh out how we interact with and fix the kingdom's general problems that I mention, like how everyone left and they're not known anymore for what they used to be known for.
Is Wooded still in the pipeline?
Wooded is in progress and was intended to release next, but I'm probably going to release more Design Frames before then since I've picked up some game design -related projects that have slowed down my video production. It's great to hear you're interested though. Hopefully it won't take too much longer.
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies That's fair. I'm sure it'll be worth it.
All of this feels like a really weird case of "the game doesn't care about this, so neither should you".
Yes, Lake Kingdom is contrived as hell. Its local community makes no sense realistically. But... it's a fucking Mario platformer. It's not trying to be realistic. It's trying to be charming and evocative. It's trying to throw out a bunch of creative and entertaining imagery, to serve as set-dressing for various platforming/body-snatching/exploration challenges.
And if you really want a Watsonian reason for the level's shallowness... well, Mario Odyssey is a game built heavily on the theme of tourism. Mario, aside from being an adventuring hero, is also framed as a tourist in the many kingdoms he visits. And of course tourists generally don't get a particularly deep experience of the places they visit. They get a shallow, sanitized, marketable version of the people and places they pass through. Distinct cultural elements like local clothing and music are pushed to the forefront, landmarks are kept clean and photogenic. Tourists don't see the ugly or mundane parts, unless they actively seek them out.
And Mario is supposed to be visiting each kingdom, then moving on as soon as possible to pursue Bowser. So of course his experience of these places is going to be limited. And that subjective experience is borne out in the design of the kingdoms themselves.
Sure, Odyssey can justify its shallow exploration, characters, and theme for a given area, but it can be so much more than it is, even just using the potential that it already has. It's not like the overarching bowser story is some deep, interconnected plot. Nothing about it makes sense in terms of Bowser moving at a snail's pace to reach the finish line, and the Broodals shouldn't be waiting a century to give Mario a chance to catch up. So why not give each area more depth?
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Bowser moves "at a snail's pace" to help keep the audience feeling like they're in hot pursuit, rather than letting him sink into the background as the player fucks about in any given kingdom. The Broodals hang around each area so that Mario has a chance to boss-fight them.
Odyssey's kingdoms are designed gameplay-first, story second. The ~lore~ really doesn't matter. The game doesn't care about it, and neither should you. You are holding the game to a standard that it was never trying to meet. You are no longer criticizing the art itself. You are criticizing the artist, for not sharing your priorities.
@@tbotalpha8133 Yes, I agree. Those are the exact reasons why they should focus on fleshing each area out rather than a greater number of more shallow areas. There's nothing holding them back other than their planning. These are not my priorities, it's just better design to take a core theme and build on it, esp when that core theme already has seeds within the space. But to be clear, I wouldn't have mentioned it if the area didn't already set up to have some kind of narrative possibilities. It's fine to avoid it like most of the kingdoms do, but if you're going to introduce it half-baked, then there's a problem.
But since the seeds and potential is there, even though it doesn't seem like a big deal on its own, fleshing out a core theme can be integral in the puzzle and challenge design contained within a level, along with a satisfying narrative throughline connecting it all together. Even though most of the kingdoms neglect this more so, it would still create even better kingdoms. Although, I don't currently remember if any other kingdoms do. Maybe the snow kingdom, for its minor blizzard and racing subplots -- they're simple, but never plant additional story seeds that aren't explored. I probably didn't explain any of this very well in the video honestly, so I'm sorry about that.
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies The game does not give a shit about story. What story it has is nothing more than window-dressing. A light dusting of motivation, as if the player really needs any motive to play a fucking Mario platformer.
The game cares about having as many visually-different environments to visit as possible, with as many fun and unique gameplay gimmicks as possible spread amongst them. That is the developers' priority. It would not be "better design" to have fewer, denser areas, because design is predicated on priorities. You build a product to fit your priorities, not some arbitrary checklist handed down from on high. There is no such thing as an "objective" standard for quality, for any art. You judge the quality of art by the standards it sets for itself, not the standards you've invented in your head.
I say again: you are not criticizing the art. You are criticizing the artist. You are complaining that they didn't make the art that you wanted them to. Stop dressing up your subjective wants as some kind of objective standard that art MUST abide by.
Correct. We've agreed about this point. However, that does not mean we should minimize the role of narrative, least of all narrative that already exists in the game.
Sure, it tried to have a variety of environments, but the gameplay gimmicks were hardly explored, primarily the captures -- supposedly the focus of the game. Bowser's Kingdom's Pokio is one of the only captures that the game truly explores as a mechanic. Design has priorities based on time restraints, but it's not some arbitrary thing, otherwise we wouldn't have classics and we wouldn't have games that build off of others or improve over time. The idea that there's no foundation to build from in terms of any form of art is silly, no matter the role that subjectivism plays. We cannot assume that improvement isn't possible and that constructive criticism isn't welcome or important, because that's minimizing countless professions that form the basis of anything resembling a good quality product, in any field.
Any suggestions that I make are predicated on improving the game through established game design _within the context of the game_ . The artist's intent is important to understand why they made certain decisions. But it's always rooted in the player experience and it's important to understand why it works or doesn't. I will not engage with game design in a fashion that diminishes their work by not recognizing what they effectively conveyed or not, and to treat it as if it's simply subjective wants isn't rooted in anything solid nor respects the work. I do not invent the standards, but I know and strive to know what they are and the player experience. That doesn't mean I haven't been wrong in the past, I have and always will recognize and admit it every time it happens, but it means I'm not making up baseless crap and I'm constantly improving at it.
I'm back lol.
Welcome back!
Most of the video is fine but you sound SO CONDESCENDING at the beginning. I overall like this series pointing out Super Mario Odyssey's problems but some of these critiques feel so small that they aren't worth beating into the ground multiple times.
Hey, I appreciate the honesty. If I sounded condescending, it wasn't intentional, and I don't get the same feeling so I'm curious. Is it the tone of my voice? My voice does change slightly over the course of the video. Or is it because of how detailed this long-form series is supposed to be so maybe it's rubbing the wrong way? In the beginning, I mostly question the world building and objectives; did that feel a bit abrasive and would've been better partway through the video?
As far as the small details, that's something that an episodic series allows me to do. Or more precisely, I cover every Power Moon in the game (this time I skipped a few but I specified the reason toward the end). I restructured how I approached this series in this episode so the points and Moons more smoothly transition from one another. I don't stay on one topic or Moon for too long but at the same time I want to provide as much reasoning to support my arguments as possible.
I'd like to hear your thoughts.
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies I believe it was a little bit of both. The cadence of your voice when you were talking about the story made that part of the video feel slower then the rest, it also felt like you were really hammering in the story problems into the viewers brain a little too hard. Other then that the video was still very informative, Lake kingdom IMO is one of the weakest water levels in the entire series.
P.S. Sorry if this comment comes of as harsh, I still like this series your doing.
I'm aiming for future videos to sound more like the second half of this one and with a bit better pacing too. Hopefully you'll find them more approachable then! I've been striving to improve with every video so thanks for bearing with me and for taking the time to leave feedback.
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Oh its nothing its just nice to see people strive to improve there content. Also out of curiosity did Joseph Anderson's video inspire you to make this series?
A little, but not for the right reasons. His video says very little, especially for its length. The main reason for starting this series is I believe there's a hole to fill in the critique space so I'm working toward filling that hole. I figured I'd start with Odyssey and then I decided to switch to a new episodic format so I can be more detailed per episode and also keep my sanity after the Celeste video.