One of the first videos I watched was when you sent your niece a gift and your sister sent it back with the note. I thought about that off and on for several days. The dark, cruel behavior from the sister was shocking to me. Broke my heart for you. I have a sister like that as well. I left them all 10years ago and wish I had done it 40 years earlier
Thank you for your kind words. I am also really sorry you have had a similar experience. I understand wishing we’d acted sooner…. Also it’s just good that we’re out now. Sending all the best to you. ❤️🩹
O found Chess's reaction to getting the books back quite disturbing. She was getting oxygen from having annoyed her sister.This is not healthy.I am suspicious of Chess now.
I moved halfway around the world to escape my dad... And I was 36. He spent years trying to destroy my life & my mental health. I took the extra step of blocking him from all apps including calls - if there's a family emergency my sisters will call me. I'm no longer estranged from my mom since she left my dad nearly 20 years ago ( a few years after I moved) .
I left my family 20 years ago. My friends are very shocked and some try to shame me or they leave me alone. I didn't notice shame when I left, but I felt tremendous fear over the thought of being alone. I am still battling with extreme loneliness, but have had great awakenings about narcissism that has explained everything to me about my relationships with my family and everyone else.
There is a saying in Spanish, “ Mejor solo que mal acompañado.” - “Better to be alone than in bad company. Applies to relationships with psycho family members.
I'm estanged from my family. They are extremely toxic, manipulative, and selfish. I was ostracized for being my own person & not following Christianity. I no longer feel shame but rather free! It feels so good. I fully support you.❤
Through the 10 plus years since I've been diagnosed with C PTSD, I have sought out and had sessions with many different experts on childhood trauma etc. Too many of these qualified therapists had little idea of what happens to their patient at the adult level and how difficult it is to "get over it." Chess, you have an incredible depth of understanding very few of these therapists had. I wish I met you on day one instead of the nightmare of "qualified" experts who did not understand my depth of trauma and made me question myself. Thank the universe for you Chess ~ I know the truth and what happened to me. You understand trauma!
My own therapist is a survivor of early childhood trauma and it is so helpful and meaningful to work with sb who herself experienced developmental trauma and associating bonding/abandonment issues. - And even in her life things pop up and have to be dealt with which helps me understand that trauma doesn’t just go away but you get better equipped to respond to triggers.
I’ve had 2 different therapists who were both good therapists but I felt like I knew more than they did in certain areas. I’ve read so many excellent psychology books over the last few decades and every time I would ask the therapist if they had heard of the book they said no. I understand they can’t read everything but I was surprised they hadn’t heard of the book or author. You Tube is a fantastic resource. Thank you Chess. 🎉
I quit a very dysfunctional and narcissistic family of origin almost 20 years ago. I have no remorse or regrets. Extended members of their family also applies. No bond or ties with any of them. I used to get very similar verbal abuse thrown at me frequently, that i should be grateful and i owe my life to toxic individuals who thought they had the right over my life. I don't miss them, i don't feel guilty about the decision made years ago. No doubt they still bad mouth me to this day, but i don't waste my time, effort or energy on such narcissistic individuals.
It's been about 3 years since estrangement and I'm just now beginning to feel like I'm on the other side of the grief. I only estranged from one person but that person's smear campaign caused me to lose my entire family of origin. It's hard for people to understand the grief of losing your entire family at one time.
I got told off by a manager at a previous job for being estranged from family and why exactly was it any of their business what I do or don't do outside the workplace? With respect that's a personal matter and nothing to do with work!
@ericb8413 what it was was that I had been talking things through on the office floor with colleagues and they had been listening in which is extremely bad manners!
@ericb8413 what I think happened is that she overheard a conversation when I said how no I wasn't going to be seeing my parents that Christmas and said how we didn't get along when asked why not by a colleague!
Exactly exactly Chess, it’s a grieving that is so hard to explain as we grieve the loss of a loved one, yet they’re still living. It’s so very difficult. My sister has bashed me and lied so so much. All I know is that she will answer to God, just as I will answer to him. I didn’t get to be a kid as I was the one that had to care for her baby that she had at 16 ( I was 9). My mom had to work, so it was me that raised her baby. A huge responsibility for a 9 yr old. Then as an adult, I was constantly paying her bills and once again taking in her two other girls. She’s the most narcissistic person. I’m with you Chess and know what your going thru
Personally, I think that only therapists who have experienced narcissistic abuse can properly address the issues, because the behavior is so counter-intuitive and illogical.
People who have not experienced it do not understand how immersive it is. You can disagree with a healthy person or argue and people try to sometimes manipulate each other. But with a narcissist literally every interaction is a game and a power play, it never stops and it's relentless and exhausting. My mother called me last year like 150 times and only two of those calls were "normal" phone calls and both of them happened after she had gone too far and wanted to check on me, so even they were manipulative. The same face to face, there is no break in attempts to manipulate or control.
Oh Chess, I can so relate to everything here. Outside people have no idea what it was like growing up with these people. And NO, it’s not about getting over something. It’s about being smart and remembering how I was betrayed and keeping a healthy distance from the behavior
You answered all these points extremely well. As to therapists, I'd never choose one who has not had some personal experience with a narcissistic and scapegoating family. Many years ago I went to a psychiatrist who proceeded to tell me that my mother and father meant well and I need to get over it. He was just a pill pusher anyway, but it took me a while to get over being shamed. That is the risk one takes if going to someone with just book learning. Also, people as a whole are remarkably dense about having empathy for people with different life situations.
I've been really enjoying your videos. My sister and I stopped all communication in 2016 following our mom's funeral, our dad had already passed. There was no argument, quarrel or falling out, just a sense of coolness at the funeral. On the one hand I'd like to know her feelings and explain why but on the other hand I feel more peaceful. I should add that all of my aunts, uncles and cousins also stopped sending Christmas cards that year and I have lost contact with all of them. I live in another country and feel this has always been held against me especially as our parents aged. I am now surrounded by my children and grandchildren and very rarely ponder on what could have been.
Your situation sounds like Olivia de Havilland and Joan Fontaine, who didn't speak and barely acknowledged each other at their mother's memorial service. It reminded that way the rest of their lives.
Thanks for your comment. I'm glad the videos are helpful. I'm sorry that you have experienced the distancing, but am also glad you have your own fulfilling life now.
Thanks for your kind and knowledgeable perspective on this particular topic. You are consistently spot on in terms of family dynamics in so many of our cases. I look forward to learning and sharing more on this topic with your insightful thoughts on this crazy but completely relevant reality on the subject of family “shame”. TBC
I would disagree with people not shaming the grief of someone whose family member has actually died. When my first husband died in 2011, I was 36. Not only did most people who didn't know assume I was divorced rather than widowed (and several shamed me for that), but many of those close to me started asking when I was going to start dating again within six months of his death, which left me wondering "wtf is wrong with people?!"
Like someone said before, all that you say is so understandable and makes so much sense. I don't come from an estranged family but it really is interesting to learn about this. Thank you for your work.. ❤
Those of us who are living through this need friends who at least try to understand instead of looking at us in horror and shame us for not just taking abuse. I appreciate your comment ❤❤❤
Excellent video. I know since distancing, I seem to still be the object of discussion when my family gets together. It comes back to me in bits and pieces. Standing firm, though, because I am much more at peace staying away from them.
Thank you for this video. Your videos have been very helpful. And knowing that I'm not the only one in my situation with family, and that you, a very decent person also has these challenges, makes me see I'm not alone, so to speak. Thanks again and sincerely all the best to you, Chess.
Hear hear! I feel that way too. I've gotten so much from Chess' insights, from knowing that there are kindred spirits out there, and from the space that she has created, posting through her own (very relatable) process.
You are so welcome, and you definitely aren't alone. The more I do this work, the more I see that scapegoats are pushed out because of the good attributes they have, not what they are led to believe.
When I realized that my therapist saw and cared more for me after twenty minutes than my parents have ever done all this kind of shame just disappeared. It was a heartbreaking and very relieving moment at the same time.
Hi Chess, I recently came across your videos and they are great !!! My family is very much like yours, I had no idea there were so many people who deal with this kind of situation. I had estranged from my family (mom,dad and brother) a long time ago I had often felt bad about it till I saw a quote that said it was okay to get rid of toxic people in your life even if they are family, it was like a weight lifted off my shoulders. Therapist, psychologists, psychotherapist, etc are all human and have emotions like everyone else, to me they make the best person to help you. I am going back and watching your videos from the start. Thank you so much for all you do.
I was raised in a religious household. I’ve dealt with emotional abuse for years and finally decided enough for the sake of my children and marriage. I’ve heard the rumors my parents tell the church and anyone else in the family. So last year I made the decision to start no contact. I’ve been told I’m going to hell for not being around the people that lie and backstab me(and it’s not only me, they do it to each other). It’s a terrible dynamic and I refuse to let my kids around it as they grow up. I’ve had a lot of grief and not know what to do with it. I’ve tried listening to family before that have said just let it go. And that would be easy if there were a change but you can’t “let it go” when it’s continually happening. I’m still struggling with sadness most days because I’ve had to let my whole family go.
After years of abuse and manipulation from a cousin, I blocked her and went no contact. She and my grandfather teamed up to steal a portion of my grandmother's inheritance from her grandchildren, myself included. They then lied, gaslit, and launched a smear campaign. I have reduced communication with my grandfather to situations where communication is necessary, which is now minimal, and down to one or two times yearly. I have already grieved losing my grandfather. He did a complete about face after my grandmother died. I no longer feel like I know him. Instead of simply saying that only one of his 16 grandchildren is important to him, he cowardly denied giving one grandchild preference over all the others, essentially discarding most of his grandchildren.
I’m so sorry. I wish I didn’t, but I often hear these types of stories. It’s awful and I wish I had better words around ‘it will come back to them’. I honestly don’t think justice exists around these types of situations often enough…. But I do believe that when people trample over others to get money, it only buys them fake happiness. They can’t and will never understand the deep satisfaction of relationships and connection. It is awful if we’re struggling with bills to pay, but if not, I think we get justice by living our lives with integrity and good people will naturally join us.
Relatives don't understand & don't get that crazy manipulation behavior & past trauma history from that bad person. I have had to speak up for my mom & myself against the threats & theft & verbal & violence. Not much support or concern - really don't want to be involved especially the men - some woman with past abuse are supportive. Yes Shamed for not bending & be ok with the Abuse -- it's Family. No more.
My mother should have had therapy for years, but always said she didn’t need therapy or meds. She was extremely controlling and would fight with people and not talk to them for months to years, then act like nothing ever happened. She passed 13 years ago and my father recently asked me why I couldn’t just come back next day after she tore my mental health apart and act like nothing happened. I just looked at him and didn’t answer him. There isn’t an answer, I couldn’t handle her Negative controlling personality.
I was estranged from my family for about 20 years. I reconnected and met my brother in law. He's a true innocent and has very honest observations about life. He said to me, when he met my family, it seemed to be I was a problem. But he met me in person and now has known me for about 10 years. He said when he first met me he was confused because I actually wasn't a problem. That's the scapegoat club right there. An interesting thing I noticed during my journey was that some people never ask about your family or try to tell you you need to be in contact with your family. It's homeless people. I was homeless for about 9 months and never once did anyone at the shelter or in the larger homeless community ever ask about my family. If I mentioned my estrangement, no one tried to tell me I was wrong or that I should contact them. Never. I think it's because you end up homeless when you have no other alternatives, and family support is nonexistent. We were all, for one reason or another, with no one in our family to help us out. That was a relief. At work, one guy tried to tell me I was horrible for not talking to my mother and I should call her right now. I was safe from that BS at the shelter.
I remember getting a Christmas card from my mother after 3 years of estrangement that said " stop brooding" really? and you wonder why i will not read anything now from her..i was so shocked that is how she still speaks to me about anything i am dealing with..she has no empathy to any of my feelings
Chess, I absolutely love your videos! I feel seen and understood. I highly value having people around me that have done their own healing work. I think in order to be a good therapist. You almost have to be in therapy first. It makes us relatable. We have greater empathy for our patients when we’ve done our own work. If you’ve never done therapy then how do you know how do you know it works? Thank you for sharing your own story and for being vulnerable. No one in strangers without their being incredible pain and the pain of staying is greater than the pain of leaving. I wish more than anything I could call my mom drive down to her town and have lunch with her. but that would not be productive. That would be opening myself up to criticism and judgment and possibly being screamed at all of those things have happened in the past. My children are happier I’m happier without my parents and sisters in my life. It makes me really sad. And it’s sadness. I live with every single day but we’re doing it. We’re healing and we’re getting better and my family, my husband and children. We are really happy and we’re healing together. Thanks for what you do. I just found you this week and you have really helped me sort out what I need to do as far as reconnecting or not for now I can’t. I definitely feel less alone after finding your videos, thank you so much.
Thanks for your support, and such kind words. I very much agree that therapy needs to be from experience as well as good training. I can really relate to your sentiment of wanting that better relationship with your mom too. I sometimes still get that idea of - oh, what if we just had a chat....often if I've seen something on TV or in a movie with a more functional family.... then I remember the reality and that it won't work. Thanks for being here!
I think that some commenters are simply trolls. They see you're feeling sensitive about something and think it's funny to sh1t in your comments section. IMO, people are mean and are even worse behind the anonymity of the internet.
Hi Chess. I appreciate your raw and honest delivery on these topics. There is so much I can relate to. 5 years ago, I left the religion that I was born and raised in for 40 years. As a result, my entire family and social circle have shunned me. I have very minimal contact with my parents every few months, but haven't spoken to or heard from any of my 5 siblings or nieces for the last 5 years. Now I'm getting married and would love to invite them, but don't know how to approach the topic. There are so many other layers, but it's love to connect with you to get your guidance.
Loved this video Chess. Thank you for sharing your insights on different forms of shaming that you've observed, and helping us anticipate and recognize the downright bizarre things that people say. I laughed at 'not even they would describe themselves in that way' 😂 To add/share a bit about my own strategies if helpful to anyone reading: - With trolls, best to simply deprive them of oxygen. They want you to engage, a reaction is all that they are after; it helps them to feel important. - With real-life shaming, it seems to me that for people who shame us, it's very important for them - for whatever reason, it's none of my business - that this doesn't work out for us. Discrediting you is another form of smearing in my view. And because they know that outright shaming is typically unacceptable, they often hide behind wanting "what's best for you." So, I love that you let us know in the beginning of the video that actually you are doing really well! And lastly, I have a quote to share that I got from a physicist, again if anyone finds it helpful: "That which is proposed without evidence, may likewise be dismissed without evidence." Thanks again Chess.
The first video I watched was full of comments from people who were triggered. Lots of shaming. It was striking. Editing. Just got to the part where you mention multiple losses and wow. Just wow. So well explained.
My friends at church and it my community all questioned how I could abandoned my family. After all blood relatives are the most important people. But if a teacher locked her students in the classroom and didn’t allow them food and belittled them. Society would fire the teacher and put her in prison. My mother was that teacher. Mother’s Day Father’s Day and holidays are all celebrated and usually celebrated with family. We unfortunately can’t safely celebrate with our blood relatives. We need to be safe and not feel shame because someone mistreated us. We need to keep ourselves safe. Sometimes people don’t want to realize that abuse happens and keeps happening even with adults. We feel shame at times because we are often caring people and don’t want to hurt others. But we are not trying to hurt others we are protecting ourselves from abuse. I am so grateful that videos are publishing this information because even therapist have not always understand. Estrangement is multiple grief over multiple years. I can’t attend my high school reunion, grief. A baby is born, grief. Find a new tribe and celebrate a new tradition.
I’ve been seeing a mental health counselor for years, and my family refuses to see their part in my depression and difficulty dealing with their shaming.
That’s hard. I hope that if they are unwilling to see it, that you can do what you need to do to support yourself in your recovery. Relationships that make us ill aren’t ones we should spend much time in - if we choose to stay in them at all.
Yes, we all should process our trauma. I believe tears are an important part of the healing. Thats how my healing has been going. Flushing out the toxins of the past. Haha! I definitely understand the adoption analogy! I would have stood a better chance of growing up in loving family had I been given up. My mother hated me before I was born. She didnt want another child. Long story as scapegoat. 😂😂 Today, I count it all Joy! Im a new sub from Ozarks MO USA. Thank you!!!!
If they never think about you or your wellbeing or feelings. Their shame isn’t anything worth worrying about. It’s their problem they can’t face this broken world. Especially if they are relatives. Peace ✌️ Edited for typo
When I became estranged from my family (my kids), I described it as feeling like they'd all died in a plane crash. That is unspeakable grief and it takes a long time to come to terms with, if ever. Thankfully, we do now speak, but it's a long way from where we were before the estrangement. I still get shamed from time to time for ever having it happen and the fact that it's still taking time to get through the initial trauma of it.
@@thescapegoatclub Thank you and I wish the same for you. I'm glad you're bringing attention to this. One thing I will say, that has helped me get through it is to allow myself to fully feel those feelings, as horrible as they are, but they dissipate much more quickly than if I'd tried to hold them in. I think that has made a huge difference and has helped me to heal a bit faster than I would have otherwise. Thank you again. 💙💜❤
I was afraid to go no-contact because I was embarrassed. And I thought perhaps I'm wrong about my mother. But time after time, her actions showed she had no care for me or my children, and was actively trying to separate me from my husband and destroy my family. Not to mention she was trying to get me to be financially dependent on her. I left my job to help her with her hoarded home. Knowing these truths, and getting reality checks from my husband (whose parents were NOT greedy like my malignant narcissistic mother and her relatives are), as well as my blessed friends whose parents show me what NORMAL parents look like, I am no longer ashamed. Deeply saddened by my mother's actions, but definitely no longer ashamed. It's my mother who should be ashamed of her lying, stealing, triangulating -- none of which I wanted to partake in, which is why she has found it so easy to discard me.
That comment about your parents being sweet was judgmental and entitled. Possibly from an estranged parent with fossilised views of who they are, desperately trying to justify their own situation; otherwise why would they have come to your channel?
Very annoying when people make a comment and didn't watch the video. They have no clue what they are talking about and therefore make an ass out of themselves. A comedian would be all over them being their joke.
Is the person who said your family was good and kind acquainted with your family on a personal level? If not, they are hearing you talk about your family in as dispassionate and factual way and have decided that they believe people they have no direct understanding of over you. Hike they don’t know you in any personal way, they have at least some evidence based on your delivery which seems fact based.
You're being too kind to the trolls. They're not interested in being informed and getting all the info about the situation. You've put yourself out into the internet in a vulnerable way, and they've identified you as an easy target to pick on, someone they can cause pain to from afar. They're not uninformed, they're evil.
I've had friends of my Dad tell me (his daughter) what a great Dad he is...without any comment from me to prompt it. It's insane. Someone outside of the family telling his *checks notes* daughter what a great Dad he is 🤯 You would have thought I might be more qualified to judge him on that score, but apparently not 🤷♀️ They're most confused about why I don't speak to my 'great Dad'.
That is insane. No interest in your views, which are the only ones that count. That’s crazy. I’m sorry your experience is so different. I hope you’re doing ok.
😢 I'm sorry this happened to u but not surprised as i had personal experience from Narc comments myself on another platform.. This is a scapegoat club channel for support and fellowship Not a narcissist's club channel...they are easy to spot by how they shame and degrade others----in all honesty, I would suggest u.delete, block and give them zero feedback Chess..🙏 a narcissist power is our reaction whether its positive or negative.
What are people’s thoughts about sharing messy details with siblings who are caught in the middle and are inclined to not take sides. I’ve purposefully withheld the information from him because I don’t want to be responsible for ripping the entire family apart, but some of that information is about him.
I am actually dealing with this right now. I've come down on the side of stating the facts. So far some people have come down on the side of "It's all over now". Some cannot be persuaded that I am not the problem. But for those who witnessed what happened, they have the puzzle pieces that let them understand the full picture of what we lived through as children. Small, odd things can make sense to them now. Personally, I would want to know if it was me. BUT, a lot of time has passed. No one is actively and persistently abusing or manipulating them. There is space to hear and accept or reject my facts. I was prepared to have my facts rejected and with that, lose the remaining relationships I had. I advise caution. This may be the type of thing for which you want support before you proceed.
@@sheila1366 I get that, but on the other hand, is it really over? Right? The stuff is generational. And the harm just gets passed down. Daylight is the best disinfectant. Secrets are toxic. Frankly, I’m tired of being the family, secret keeper, and taking the brunt of all the abuse at the same time. And if I’m being truly honest with myself, I have to admit that there’s a part of me that hasn’t shared this information with him because if I 100% come clean and bear all, I’m likely going to be the one on the outside, with no lifelines left. I tried the whole, don’t-talk-about-the-elephant-in-the-room, for his sake, so that he wouldn’t have to take sides, but in doing so I was denying my own reality and I couldn’t bear it and I stopped talking to him too. So I think I know the answer. Thank you for your comment. I hope it was helpful for you too. Peace be to you.
the trump fans in my family is what finally got me to go no contact with some of my family. they became even meaner and judgmental because of trump. i have been so much more comfortable in my life now. no more walking on eggshells. i do sometimes feel like reconnecting with them but then i remember "eh did they change? nope" so i don't.
I think a lot of people don't like people saying that estrangement is justified sometimes. They are hurt, angry or scared. Some people avoid their own difficult emotions by judging others or lashing out. Or, perhaps they are trying to bully me into not making the videos? That isn't working!
Of course therapists have experience of these kinds of situation and it usually makes them even better therapists. As a mental health professional, it can really help others if you talk about your own experiences, but when you talk about them in such a triggered and emotional way, it causes concern rather than comfort. You sound as if you are still very actively triggered by these things you went through and at times it comes across as if you aren't coping well, causing your viewers to be concerned for you, rather than getting help themselves!. Perhaps consider re-shooting the bits were you get so visibly upset.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have found that the more emotional pieces in my videos are the ones people connect to most. The views on my 'clinical' videos are tiny compared to showing the real experience. I do appreciate that a therapist does not want to show they are being openly triggered in sessions- but as I say here- these are not therapy session. Also, I think it important to note that there is a big difference between showing emotion and being triggered. Triggered implies a lack of emotional control, showing emotion shows an ability to empathise, understand and connect.
I tend to agree. I was seeing a therapist about abuse from my family. He had been extremely helpful. During one session I related something that had been done to me when I was a child and when I looked up, I saw that he was crying. It made me cry. I felt I had distressed him and my concern shifted to him rather than to me. The next time I went, I was assigned a different therapist. At first I felt abandoned and a bit betrayed, but the truth was, his emotions should not have come in to it as a professional counsellor. If you want someone to cry with you, maybe a best buddy or something. Yes, therapists have feelings but remember who is the patient. You can have empathy AND strength.
One of the first videos I watched was when you sent your niece a gift and your sister sent it back with the note. I thought about that off and on for several days. The dark, cruel behavior from the sister was shocking to me. Broke my heart for you. I have a sister like that as well. I left them all 10years ago and wish I had done it 40 years earlier
Thank you for your kind words. I am also really sorry you have had a similar experience. I understand wishing we’d acted sooner…. Also it’s just good that we’re out now. Sending all the best to you. ❤️🩹
O found Chess's reaction to getting the books back quite disturbing. She was getting oxygen from having annoyed her sister.This is not healthy.I am suspicious of Chess now.
So exhausted from this crap. It never ends. Then they try to reconnect and it starts all over again. I've even moved countries to escape this stuff.
I moved countries once. Now I'm back home but nobody knows I'm here. It's insane.
@@merg-vh5sx that made me smile!😅
I moved halfway around the world to escape my dad... And I was 36. He spent years trying to destroy my life & my mental health. I took the extra step of blocking him from all apps including calls - if there's a family emergency my sisters will call me. I'm no longer estranged from my mom since she left my dad nearly 20 years ago ( a few years after I moved) .
I'm 600 miles x 2.5 years.
So sorry! Same
I left my family 20 years ago. My friends are very shocked and some try to shame me or they leave me alone. I didn't notice shame when I left, but I felt tremendous fear over the thought of being alone. I am still battling with extreme loneliness, but have had great awakenings about narcissism that has explained everything to me about my relationships with my family and everyone else.
There is a saying in Spanish, “ Mejor solo que mal acompañado.” - “Better to be alone than in bad company. Applies to relationships with psycho family members.
You are wonderful!!!
I'm estanged from my family. They are extremely toxic, manipulative, and selfish. I was ostracized for being my own person & not following Christianity. I no longer feel shame but rather free! It feels so good. I fully support you.❤
Through the 10 plus years since I've been diagnosed with C PTSD, I have sought out and had sessions with many different experts on childhood trauma etc. Too many of these qualified therapists had little idea of what happens to their patient at the adult level and how difficult it is to "get over it." Chess, you have an incredible depth of understanding very few of these therapists had. I wish I met you on day one instead of the nightmare of "qualified" experts who did not understand my depth of trauma and made me question myself. Thank the universe for you Chess ~ I know the truth and what happened to me. You understand trauma!
Same here. The last therapist I had didn't even know what complex PTSD was, or attachment disorder either.
My own therapist is a survivor of early childhood trauma and it is so helpful and meaningful to work with sb who herself experienced developmental trauma and associating bonding/abandonment issues. - And even in her life things pop up and have to be dealt with which helps me understand that trauma doesn’t just go away but you get better equipped to respond to triggers.
I’ve had 2 different therapists who were both good therapists but I felt like I knew more than they did in certain areas. I’ve read so many excellent psychology books over the last few decades and every time I would ask the therapist if they had heard of the book they said no. I understand they can’t read everything but I was surprised they hadn’t heard of the book or author. You Tube is a fantastic resource. Thank you Chess. 🎉
I quit a very dysfunctional and narcissistic family of origin almost 20 years ago. I have no remorse or regrets. Extended members of their family also applies. No bond or ties with any of them. I used to get very similar verbal abuse thrown at me frequently, that i should be grateful and i owe my life to toxic individuals who thought they had the right over my life. I don't miss them, i don't feel guilty about the decision made years ago. No doubt they still bad mouth me to this day, but i don't waste my time, effort or energy on such narcissistic individuals.
It's been about 3 years since estrangement and I'm just now beginning to feel like I'm on the other side of the grief. I only estranged from one person but that person's smear campaign caused me to lose my entire family of origin. It's hard for people to understand the grief of losing your entire family at one time.
yup exactly..the smear campaign is so horrible
Yes. Many can't understand it. Good for them. I wouldn't wish this on anyone. It's very difficult.
Oh I get it ....happened to me
Tossed out.
Even during hard times
.
I was always there for them, now I’m ostracized... oh well I moved on.
I got told off by a manager at a previous job for being estranged from family and why exactly was it any of their business what I do or don't do outside the workplace?
With respect that's a personal matter and nothing to do with work!
That’s crazy! And so inappropriate. Nothing to do with work at all. Ugh.
If I’m not being too nosy I was wondering how the manager knew. It’s definitely none of their concern! Hope you’ve found peace.
@ericb8413 what it was was that I had been talking things through on the office floor with colleagues and they had been listening in which is extremely bad manners!
@ericb8413 what I think happened is that she overheard a conversation when I said how no I wasn't going to be seeing my parents that Christmas and said how we didn't get along when asked why not by a colleague!
Exactly exactly Chess, it’s a grieving that is so hard to explain as we grieve the loss of a loved one, yet they’re still living. It’s so very difficult. My sister has bashed me and lied so so much. All I know is that she will answer to God, just as I will answer to him. I didn’t get to be a kid as I was the one that had to care for her baby that she had at 16 ( I was 9). My mom had to work, so it was me that raised her baby. A huge responsibility for a 9 yr old. Then as an adult, I was constantly paying her bills and once again taking in her two other girls. She’s the most narcissistic person. I’m with you Chess and know what your going thru
Personally, I think that only therapists who have experienced narcissistic abuse can properly address the issues, because the behavior is so counter-intuitive and illogical.
I agree that narcissistic abuse is something you only truly understand through personal experience.
People who have not experienced it do not understand how immersive it is. You can disagree with a healthy person or argue and people try to sometimes manipulate each other. But with a narcissist literally every interaction is a game and a power play, it never stops and it's relentless and exhausting. My mother called me last year like 150 times and only two of those calls were "normal" phone calls and both of them happened after she had gone too far and wanted to check on me, so even they were manipulative. The same face to face, there is no break in attempts to manipulate or control.
Oh Chess, I can so relate to everything here. Outside people have no idea what it was like growing up with these people. And NO, it’s not about getting over something. It’s about being smart and remembering how I was betrayed and keeping a healthy distance from the behavior
Thanks for your comment. Yes, yes, yes, it's about self-protection, finally. I hope you're doing ok!
OMG, you make so much sense.
You answered all these points extremely well. As to therapists, I'd never choose one who has not had some personal experience with a narcissistic and scapegoating family. Many years ago I went to a psychiatrist who proceeded to tell me that my mother and father meant well and I need to get over it. He was just a pill pusher anyway, but it took me a while to get over being shamed. That is the risk one takes if going to someone with just book learning. Also, people as a whole are remarkably dense about having empathy for people with different life situations.
I've been really enjoying your videos. My sister and I stopped all communication in 2016 following our mom's funeral, our dad had already passed. There was no argument, quarrel or falling out, just a sense of coolness at the funeral. On the one hand I'd like to know her feelings and explain why but on the other hand I feel more peaceful. I should add that all of my aunts, uncles and cousins also stopped sending Christmas cards that year and I have lost contact with all of them. I live in another country and feel this has always been held against me especially as our parents aged. I am now surrounded by my children and grandchildren and very rarely ponder on what could have been.
Your situation sounds like Olivia de Havilland and Joan Fontaine, who didn't speak and barely acknowledged each other at their mother's memorial service. It reminded that way the rest of their lives.
Thanks for your comment. I'm glad the videos are helpful. I'm sorry that you have experienced the distancing, but am also glad you have your own fulfilling life now.
Thanks for your kind and knowledgeable perspective on this particular topic. You are consistently spot on in terms of family dynamics in so many of our cases. I look forward to learning and sharing more on this topic with your insightful thoughts on this crazy but completely relevant reality on the subject of family “shame”. TBC
I would disagree with people not shaming the grief of someone whose family member has actually died. When my first husband died in 2011, I was 36. Not only did most people who didn't know assume I was divorced rather than widowed (and several shamed me for that), but many of those close to me started asking when I was going to start dating again within six months of his death, which left me wondering "wtf is wrong with people?!"
That's awful! I'm so sorry you experienced that.
Like someone said before, all that you say is so understandable and makes so much sense. I don't come from an estranged family but it really is interesting to learn about this. Thank you for your work.. ❤
Those of us who are living through this need friends who at least try to understand instead of looking at us in horror and shame us for not just taking abuse. I appreciate your comment ❤❤❤
Thank you for saying this, I appreciate it!
@kimpeterson4846 Absolutely! Thank you for understanding, Susanne.
Excellent video. I know since distancing, I seem to still be the object of discussion when my family gets together. It comes back to me in bits and pieces. Standing firm, though, because I am much more at peace staying away from them.
Thank you for this video. Your videos have been very helpful. And knowing that I'm not the only one in my situation with family, and that you, a very decent person also has these challenges, makes me see I'm not alone, so to speak. Thanks again and sincerely all the best to you, Chess.
Hear hear! I feel that way too. I've gotten so much from Chess' insights, from knowing that there are kindred spirits out there, and from the space that she has created, posting through her own (very relatable) process.
You are so welcome, and you definitely aren't alone. The more I do this work, the more I see that scapegoats are pushed out because of the good attributes they have, not what they are led to believe.
When I realized that my therapist saw and cared more for me after twenty minutes than my parents have ever done all this kind of shame just disappeared. It was a heartbreaking and very relieving moment at the same time.
Hi Chess, I recently came across your videos and they are great !!! My family is very much like yours, I had no idea there were so many people who deal with this kind of situation. I had estranged from my family (mom,dad and brother) a long time ago I had often felt bad about it till I saw a quote that said it was okay to get rid of toxic people in your life even if they are family, it was like a weight lifted off my shoulders. Therapist, psychologists, psychotherapist, etc are all human and have emotions like everyone else, to me they make the best person to help you. I am going back and watching your videos from the start. Thank you so much for all you do.
I was raised in a religious household. I’ve dealt with emotional abuse for years and finally decided enough for the sake of my children and marriage. I’ve heard the rumors my parents tell the church and anyone else in the family. So last year I made the decision to start no contact. I’ve been told I’m going to hell for not being around the people that lie and backstab me(and it’s not only me, they do it to each other). It’s a terrible dynamic and I refuse to let my kids around it as they grow up. I’ve had a lot of grief and not know what to do with it. I’ve tried listening to family before that have said just let it go. And that would be easy if there were a change but you can’t “let it go” when it’s continually happening. I’m still struggling with sadness most days because I’ve had to let my whole family go.
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After years of abuse and manipulation from a cousin, I blocked her and went no contact. She and my grandfather teamed up to steal a portion of my grandmother's inheritance from her grandchildren, myself included. They then lied, gaslit, and launched a smear campaign. I have reduced communication with my grandfather to situations where communication is necessary, which is now minimal, and down to one or two times yearly.
I have already grieved losing my grandfather. He did a complete about face after my grandmother died. I no longer feel like I know him. Instead of simply saying that only one of his 16 grandchildren is important to him, he cowardly denied giving one grandchild preference over all the others, essentially discarding most of his grandchildren.
I’m so sorry. I wish I didn’t, but I often hear these types of stories. It’s awful and I wish I had better words around ‘it will come back to them’. I honestly don’t think justice exists around these types of situations often enough…. But I do believe that when people trample over others to get money, it only buys them fake happiness. They can’t and will never understand the deep satisfaction of relationships and connection. It is awful if we’re struggling with bills to pay, but if not, I think we get justice by living our lives with integrity and good people will naturally join us.
Relatives don't understand & don't get that crazy manipulation behavior & past trauma history from that bad person. I have had to speak up for my mom & myself against the threats & theft & verbal & violence. Not much support or concern - really don't want to be involved especially the men - some woman with past abuse are supportive. Yes Shamed for not bending & be ok with the Abuse -- it's Family. No more.
It's a form of grief going no contact. It hurts. You've no body, no funeral. People do not understand.
You're quite right
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My mother should have had therapy for years, but always said she didn’t need therapy or meds. She was extremely controlling and would fight with people and not talk to them for months to years, then act like nothing ever happened. She passed 13 years ago and my father recently asked me why I couldn’t just come back next day after she tore my mental health apart and act like nothing happened. I just looked at him and didn’t answer him. There isn’t an answer, I couldn’t handle her
Negative controlling personality.
I was estranged from my family for about 20 years. I reconnected and met my brother in law. He's a true innocent and has very honest observations about life. He said to me, when he met my family, it seemed to be I was a problem. But he met me in person and now has known me for about 10 years. He said when he first met me he was confused because I actually wasn't a problem. That's the scapegoat club right there.
An interesting thing I noticed during my journey was that some people never ask about your family or try to tell you you need to be in contact with your family. It's homeless people. I was homeless for about 9 months and never once did anyone at the shelter or in the larger homeless community ever ask about my family. If I mentioned my estrangement, no one tried to tell me I was wrong or that I should contact them. Never. I think it's because you end up homeless when you have no other alternatives, and family support is nonexistent. We were all, for one reason or another, with no one in our family to help us out. That was a relief. At work, one guy tried to tell me I was horrible for not talking to my mother and I should call her right now. I was safe from that BS at the shelter.
I remember getting a Christmas card from my mother after 3 years of estrangement that said " stop brooding" really? and you wonder why i will not read anything now from her..i was so shocked that is how she still speaks to me about anything i am dealing with..she has no empathy to any of my feelings
I'm 61 and she will never change..i had to estrange to save my mental state so i can still work as a teacher
Ouch- you mother showed zero empathy or interest in understanding your perspective. Of course that didn't help your relationship. I'm so sorry.
Chess, I absolutely love your videos! I feel seen and understood. I highly value having people around me that have done their own healing work. I think in order to be a good therapist. You almost have to be in therapy first. It makes us relatable. We have greater empathy for our patients when we’ve done our own work. If you’ve never done therapy then how do you know how do you know it works? Thank you for sharing your own story and for being vulnerable. No one in strangers without their being incredible pain and the pain of staying is greater than the pain of leaving. I wish more than anything I could call my mom drive down to her town and have lunch with her. but that would not be productive. That would be opening myself up to criticism and judgment and possibly being screamed at all of those things have happened in the past. My children are happier I’m happier without my parents and sisters in my life. It makes me really sad. And it’s sadness. I live with every single day but we’re doing it. We’re healing and we’re getting better and my family, my husband and children. We are really happy and we’re healing together. Thanks for what you do. I just found you this week and you have really helped me sort out what I need to do as far as reconnecting or not for now I can’t. I definitely feel less alone after finding your videos, thank you so much.
Thanks for your support, and such kind words. I very much agree that therapy needs to be from experience as well as good training.
I can really relate to your sentiment of wanting that better relationship with your mom too. I sometimes still get that idea of - oh, what if we just had a chat....often if I've seen something on TV or in a movie with a more functional family.... then I remember the reality and that it won't work.
Thanks for being here!
I think that some commenters are simply trolls. They see you're feeling sensitive about something and think it's funny to sh1t in your comments section. IMO, people are mean and are even worse behind the anonymity of the internet.
Thank you for this video, Chess. I very, very much appreciate you addressing these topics.
You are so welcome!
Sounds nerve-wracking getting people comment like that. Of course you try your best to not focus on them as much seeing just talk.
Thank you for what you do. I have referred your channel to several friends who need compassionate narrative
Thank you! I hope they find it helpful too.
❤thank you
Hi Chess. I appreciate your raw and honest delivery on these topics. There is so much I can relate to. 5 years ago, I left the religion that I was born and raised in for 40 years. As a result, my entire family and social circle have shunned me. I have very minimal contact with my parents every few months, but haven't spoken to or heard from any of my 5 siblings or nieces for the last 5 years. Now I'm getting married and would love to invite them, but don't know how to approach the topic. There are so many other layers, but it's love to connect with you to get your guidance.
Loved this video Chess. Thank you for sharing your insights on different forms of shaming that you've observed, and helping us anticipate and recognize the downright bizarre things that people say.
I laughed at 'not even they would describe themselves in that way' 😂
To add/share a bit about my own strategies if helpful to anyone reading:
- With trolls, best to simply deprive them of oxygen. They want you to engage, a reaction is all that they are after; it helps them to feel important.
- With real-life shaming, it seems to me that for people who shame us, it's very important for them - for whatever reason, it's none of my business - that this doesn't work out for us. Discrediting you is another form of smearing in my view. And because they know that outright shaming is typically unacceptable, they often hide behind wanting "what's best for you."
So, I love that you let us know in the beginning of the video that actually you are doing really well!
And lastly, I have a quote to share that I got from a physicist, again if anyone finds it helpful:
"That which is proposed without evidence, may likewise be dismissed without evidence."
Thanks again Chess.
Thanks so much! And brilliant quote - it’s coming with me for next time 😉
The first video I watched was full of comments from people who were triggered. Lots of shaming. It was striking.
Editing. Just got to the part where you mention multiple losses and wow. Just wow. So well explained.
My friends at church and it my community all questioned how I could abandoned my family. After all blood relatives are the most important people. But if a teacher locked her students in the classroom and didn’t allow them food and belittled them. Society would fire the teacher and put her in prison. My mother was that teacher. Mother’s Day Father’s Day and holidays are all celebrated and usually celebrated with family. We unfortunately can’t safely celebrate with our blood relatives. We need to be safe and not feel shame because someone mistreated us. We need to keep ourselves safe. Sometimes people don’t want to realize that abuse happens and keeps happening even with adults.
We feel shame at times because we are often caring people and don’t want to hurt others. But we are not trying to hurt others we are protecting ourselves from abuse.
I am so grateful that videos are publishing this information because even therapist have not always understand.
Estrangement is multiple grief over multiple years. I can’t attend my high school reunion, grief. A baby is born, grief.
Find a new tribe and celebrate a new tradition.
I’ve been seeing a mental health counselor for years, and my family refuses to see their part in my depression and difficulty dealing with their shaming.
That’s hard. I hope that if they are unwilling to see it, that you can do what you need to do to support yourself in your recovery. Relationships that make us ill aren’t ones we should spend much time in - if we choose to stay in them at all.
Yes, we all should process our trauma. I believe tears are an important part of the healing. Thats how my healing has been going. Flushing out the toxins of the past.
Haha! I definitely understand the adoption analogy! I would have stood a better chance of growing up in loving family had I been given up. My mother hated me before I was born. She didnt want another child. Long story as scapegoat. 😂😂 Today, I count it all Joy!
Im a new sub from Ozarks MO USA.
Thank you!!!!
If they never think about you or your wellbeing or feelings. Their shame isn’t anything worth worrying about. It’s their problem they can’t face this broken world. Especially if they are relatives. Peace ✌️
Edited for typo
When I became estranged from my family (my kids), I described it as feeling like they'd all died in a plane crash. That is unspeakable grief and it takes a long time to come to terms with, if ever. Thankfully, we do now speak, but it's a long way from where we were before the estrangement. I still get shamed from time to time for ever having it happen and the fact that it's still taking time to get through the initial trauma of it.
I can relate to this so much. The pain of estrangement is incredibly deep. I wish you well with moving forwards.
@@thescapegoatclub Thank you and I wish the same for you. I'm glad you're bringing attention to this. One thing I will say, that has helped me get through it is to allow myself to fully feel those feelings, as horrible as they are, but they dissipate much more quickly than if I'd tried to hold them in. I think that has made a huge difference and has helped me to heal a bit faster than I would have otherwise. Thank you again. 💙💜❤
I was afraid to go no-contact because I was embarrassed. And I thought perhaps I'm wrong about my mother. But time after time, her actions showed she had no care for me or my children, and was actively trying to separate me from my husband and destroy my family. Not to mention she was trying to get me to be financially dependent on her. I left my job to help her with her hoarded home. Knowing these truths, and getting reality checks from my husband (whose parents were NOT greedy like my malignant narcissistic mother and her relatives are), as well as my blessed friends whose parents show me what NORMAL parents look like, I am no longer ashamed. Deeply saddened by my mother's actions, but definitely no longer ashamed. It's my mother who should be ashamed of her lying, stealing, triangulating -- none of which I wanted to partake in, which is why she has found it so easy to discard me.
That comment about your parents being sweet was judgmental and entitled. Possibly from an estranged parent with fossilised views of who they are, desperately trying to justify their own situation; otherwise why would they have come to your channel?
Very annoying when people make a comment and didn't watch the video. They have no clue what they are talking about and therefore make an ass out of themselves. A comedian would be all over them being their joke.
Right?? At a comedy club they would be the heckler that ends up looking like an idiot.
Is the person who said your family was good and kind acquainted with your family on a personal level? If not, they are hearing you talk about your family in as dispassionate and factual way and have decided that they believe people they have no direct understanding of over you. Hike they don’t know you in any personal way, they have at least some evidence based on your delivery which seems fact based.
Do you have a support group?
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You're being too kind to the trolls. They're not interested in being informed and getting all the info about the situation. You've put yourself out into the internet in a vulnerable way, and they've identified you as an easy target to pick on, someone they can cause pain to from afar. They're not uninformed, they're evil.
Fair comment!
I've had friends of my Dad tell me (his daughter) what a great Dad he is...without any comment from me to prompt it. It's insane. Someone outside of the family telling his *checks notes* daughter what a great Dad he is 🤯 You would have thought I might be more qualified to judge him on that score, but apparently not 🤷♀️ They're most confused about why I don't speak to my 'great Dad'.
That is insane. No interest in your views, which are the only ones that count. That’s crazy. I’m sorry your experience is so different. I hope you’re doing ok.
😢 I'm sorry this happened to u but not surprised as i had personal experience from Narc comments myself on another platform.. This is a scapegoat club channel for support and fellowship Not a narcissist's club channel...they are easy to spot by how they shame and degrade others----in all honesty, I would suggest u.delete, block and give them zero feedback Chess..🙏 a narcissist power is our reaction whether its positive or negative.
Thanks for your support!
"If Jesus came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he would never stop throwing up." - Max Von Sydow, Hannah and Her Sisters
What are people’s thoughts about sharing messy details with siblings who are caught in the middle and are inclined to not take sides. I’ve purposefully withheld the information from him because I don’t want to be responsible for ripping the entire family apart, but some of that information is about him.
I am actually dealing with this right now. I've come down on the side of stating the facts.
So far some people have come down on the side of "It's all over now". Some cannot be persuaded that I am not the problem. But for those who witnessed what happened, they have the puzzle pieces that let them understand the full picture of what we lived through as children. Small, odd things can make sense to them now. Personally, I would want to know if it was me.
BUT, a lot of time has passed. No one is actively and persistently abusing or manipulating them. There is space to hear and accept or reject my facts. I was prepared to have my facts rejected and with that, lose the remaining relationships I had. I advise caution. This may be the type of thing for which you want support before you proceed.
Maybe ask yourself if you would prefer to know if you were your brother? Or need to know if there is on-going risk?
@@sheila1366 I get that, but on the other hand, is it really over? Right? The stuff is generational. And the harm just gets passed down. Daylight is the best disinfectant. Secrets are toxic. Frankly, I’m tired of being the family, secret keeper, and taking the brunt of all the abuse at the same time. And if I’m being truly honest with myself, I have to admit that there’s a part of me that hasn’t shared this information with him because if I 100% come clean and bear all, I’m likely going to be the one on the outside, with no lifelines left.
I tried the whole, don’t-talk-about-the-elephant-in-the-room, for his sake, so that he wouldn’t have to take sides, but in doing so I was denying my own reality and I couldn’t bear it and I stopped talking to him too. So I think I know the answer.
Thank you for your comment. I hope it was helpful for you too. Peace be to you.
the trump fans in my family is what finally got me to go no contact with some of my family. they became even meaner and judgmental because of trump. i have been so much more comfortable in my life now. no more walking on eggshells. i do sometimes feel like reconnecting with them but then i remember "eh did they change? nope" so i don't.
So weird that there are flying monkeys trolling sites like yours looking for narcissists to enable that they don't even know. Why are they here?
I think a lot of people don't like people saying that estrangement is justified sometimes. They are hurt, angry or scared. Some people avoid their own difficult emotions by judging others or lashing out. Or, perhaps they are trying to bully me into not making the videos? That isn't working!
Is it possible that a family member or someone they're connected to could be responsible for that comment? Flying monkeys everywhere!
You look Swedish
Of course therapists have experience of these kinds of situation and it usually makes them even better therapists. As a mental health professional, it can really help others if you talk about your own experiences, but when you talk about them in such a triggered and emotional way, it causes concern rather than comfort. You sound as if you are still very actively triggered by these things you went through and at times it comes across as if you aren't coping well, causing your viewers to be concerned for you, rather than getting help themselves!. Perhaps consider re-shooting the bits were you get so visibly upset.
Disagree. We have empathy and it helps create authenticity.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have found that the more emotional pieces in my videos are the ones people connect to most. The views on my 'clinical' videos are tiny compared to showing the real experience. I do appreciate that a therapist does not want to show they are being openly triggered in sessions- but as I say here- these are not therapy session.
Also, I think it important to note that there is a big difference between showing emotion and being triggered. Triggered implies a lack of emotional control, showing emotion shows an ability to empathise, understand and connect.
@@NoNewComments ♥️👍
I tend to agree. I was seeing a therapist about abuse from my family. He had been extremely helpful. During one session I related something that had been done to me when I was a child and when I looked up, I saw that he was crying. It made me cry. I felt I had distressed him and my concern shifted to him rather than to me. The next time I went, I was assigned a different therapist. At first I felt abandoned and a bit betrayed, but the truth was, his emotions should not have come in to it as a professional counsellor. If you want someone to cry with you, maybe a best buddy or something. Yes, therapists have feelings but remember who is the patient. You can have empathy AND strength.