I like this solution a lot, I think you're right. The only 'cost' is a barrier to minmaxing both prot and ret but I think thats a fair trade for 'optimal' seals for your preferred spec.
No, keep it the way it is. It's never been an issue. You will still have Ret paladins on alliance, they just won't be the sweat lord top parses in general. Then give blood elves weapon expertise.
Then don’t do it. It’s your own fault you went along with it. If soooo many people hate wirld buffs then if they all stop doing it collectively then boom. World buff meta gone over night.
@@kirarozu It's the raid leaders forcing people to take it by giving loot priority to the ones that have it. I'll run my own guild and have none of that shit now.
@@KaLNFoRc3R You have a shitty RL. We go for worldbuff because we want to add as much value as possible to our guild, but when we don't have time, no one blames anyone on my guild.
@@kirarozu It's not your decision to make if you care to progress in a hardcore guild. And we see the world buff meta even creep into less hardcore ones too, for the guys who challenge each other and push each other to parse as hard as they can. Point is, min-maxing has infected the heart of the WoW Classic community and it's here to stay. The guilds that don't do it, are the more casual ones who take 3+ hours to clear content that take the better guilds 1.5 hours(or less) to. Be honest, who would you go with? If you answered "well I"d rather have fun and laughs with a less sweaty crowd" well hope that social group is capable of keeping that up 3 hours and multiple wipes later.
Yeah, they should just clear all buffs upon entering instances. You can just rebuff inside. This also means you can't carry in buffs that can't be produced by members of your raid.
Talking about faction balance for tbc when alliance CLEARLY dominated the pve scene in classic. Alliance had their moment its now soon becoming hordes time to shine.
Yeah. Let's not think about the dead servers which where caused by the dominance of the horde. This type of playerbase cannot have the full advantage over both PvP and PvE at the same time. It only results in open word terror which is a HUGE concern on this smal island which is called TBC.
@@Seraphim262 maybe go check the pvp server balences before you talk, there are 4 horde controlled pvp/rppvp servers and 4 alliance controlled ones. And pve servers there is 1 that is horde the rest are alliance.
I was dead set on belf pally for a while, though after being on a high pop PVP server for all of classic, I'm ready to make the change to PVE for TBC. PVE servers seem to be overwhelmingly dominated by alliance on classic though, so I may end up going draenei shaman instead.
That's true, mirage raceway has a pretty big surge of population too around P3 when I was ranking. Went from a server I'd never see in BGs to always see just due to population shift.
Lil bit of discussion on the Retribution Paladin discord(s), ever since the change on PTR Paladins can now Seal Twist any seal. *ANY SEAL* ...even different ranks of the same seal! I've been Seal Twisting rank 5 and rank 6 Seal of Command on my Ret Paladin and getting both seals to trigger from the same attack, with seperate procs per minute counters. Normally Seal of Command has a 6.8 Procs Per Minute counter, when twisting the two ranks of Seal of Command I was getting 9-12 Procs Per Minute (no swing timer on PTR so not perfect execution). This matters because there aren't any different ranks for Seal of Blood, so Horde Paladins can't double dip into that. So the "re-introduction" of Seal Twisting isn't as much of a problem as you might think, we're still reduced to the SoC vs SoB difference though.
I see, that's really good to know. Thanks for sharing. So, ultimately twisting won't impact faction balance moreso than what would have 'already happened' in theory?
@@KnotxD As long as Blizzards new version of seal twisting remains? Correct. Difference will then still be reduced to Seal of Blood vs. Seal of Command, which for several reasons favors Blood Elves, but not to the potential difference that it could’ve been. To clarify Blizzards new Seal Twisting mechanics: If you have a seal active and then change to a different seal then your previous seal will remain active for aprox ~0.4 seconds, this to mimic the old spell batching window that allowed Seal Twisting to be a thing- which Blizzard is a fan of. However this "mimic spell batching mechanic" also functions if you change between different ranks of the same seal, this might be unintended and if fixed (lets hope not) then it’s back to Blood Elf Paladins being miles ahead of Alliance Paladins.
I really don't think nearly as many people are going to roll horde as people think. Like alliance outnumber horde across all servers right now. It's 53-47 ally favored. It might switch to horde but its not going to be even as bad as 30-70 horde. at most itll be 45-55 horde.
I hope so. And rightfully so the split shouldn't be horrendous, that's kind of what I'm trying to highlight - large audiences are being preached to as if it's really detrimental to not be Horde. At least from what I've seen - most times I see it on discord or Gchat etc as a topic, someone is convinced that everyone should be horde in TBC. As a horde player for over a decade, I just hope that experience of hearing these comments doesn't translate to live. Alliance is cool. Hooves are nice in 2021.
Yeah I'm super concerned about that buff. Even as a TBC aficionado I hadn't heard of it til I stumbled upon it mentioned and then on digging.... Genuine yikes.
@@KnotxD I'm interested as to why all the private TBC server kings like Crix, DrKael and all those guys never mentioned a word about this buff. All they ever talked about were drums, never anything about this. Why is that?
I don't think they'll give Alliance Seal of Blood and claim it is for lore reasons. If this is the case, a simple solution would be for them to buff Seal of Vengeance.
That's a fair take. Not sure what the gap is for retribution in regards to SoV and SoB but I suspect it could be tricky. As long as there is a somewhat balanced-is outcome I'd be happy.
The issue with seal of blood isn’t just about damage it deals to your target but it’s about the fact that the seal does damage to you and since you get mana when healed it helps with Paladin mana issues (as well as allowing the paladin to break cc in pvp) buffing vengeance doesn’t change these strengths that blood brings to BE paladins
I'm shitting my pants at the thought that the chance to replay my favorite game of all time might be ruined by Blizzard by not addressing faction balance. Pls blizz. pls. And add sated to drums. That's all I ask I promise. And don't let bosses be a pushover :)
I hear you on the boss tuning. It'd be okay if Tier 4 is pretty easy but from Tier 5 they really need to ensure bosses are a little resilient. 2.4.3 boss tuning was really really poor on retail, I remember going back through T4 and T5 on an alt in a fresh guild and just mowing everything down with minimal wipes despite not being overgeared. Hopefully blizzard have some subtle tweaks in mind for ensuring the game is successful. It's my favourite iteration of WoW also!
Holy shit I hope those leaks are fake. I know Blizzard has done some scummy shit, but to actually force progression and then make people fucking pay to have their toons transferred back to classic realms...and there will be absolute hell raining down from the playerbase if they actually do tokens and boosts.
Yeah I'm a little dubious but if they're true, I think they are in trouble of not getting the 'free' quarterly hits from recycling TBC and presumably WOTLK.
Lol i still can’t believe anyone actually believes that. Y’all really need to learn what constitutes a leak and what does not. Blizzard has NEVER made people pay to transfer when they change the game.
@@kirarozu Mate, have you seen the absolutely horrendous PR stunts Blizzard has pulled in the last couple years alone? Hong-Kong, Warcraft 3, and Diablo Immortal just to name a few. I really wouldn't put it past Blizzard to do this. But I hope with all my being it is indeed bs.
Wow im really glad , you dont work for Blizzard, the amount of controll you want to apply to gameplay is even greater then Blizzard s if they detect fun player's have.
@@KnotxD Same faction race change would be fine. I'd put my money on there being a lot fewer human warriors running around. I just don't want the soul of the game sapped for balance and min max culture. Giving seal of blood to ally pallies means your faction no longer identifies as the underdog. Your accomplishments will always have that intangible *balanced* asterisk hanging over your head. It's the intangible that brought us back to Classic.. Community, Immersion, Cannon Lore, Nostalgia, Character Investment, Class Identity. Not 99 parses and BiS. This change would fall in the latter category.
I mean, horde plays all of vanilla classic as the clearly inferior raiding faction. Just look at top 50 in any category and alliance will win because paladins are far superior to shamans that you need to bring 8 of. Now in the next expansion, 1 spec of 1 class that some raids (not even all) will have 1 maximum in a raid is weaker and everyone is freaking out. Seriously, pathetic. Horde racials are better in pvp if you make up your scenario. Also at a rogue vs rogue, humans will always get the first sap, how about that?
That was the point I was making. Horde are better but the narrative that everyone should play horde cause the gap is huge is incorrect imo. I have no problem with what's best but if there are small things that can be done to stop the community convincing itself that horde is the only way, I think Blizz should do it if they are minor. Such as same faction race change etc. Its very evident in retail that the demographic shift to more and more horde players over time begins in TBC and I don't think anyone believes populations are balanced on retail between factions.
@@KnotxD true but this issue derives from new players choosing horde over alliance in new expansions not because of power levels but simply because alliance is boring - I don't think there's a solution for that. Almost nobody currently playing will give up their server, character and guild because of one ability of an insignificant dps character, the effect comes from bis this bis that videos. Retri paladin is a support dps class and videos should not say "horde is way better", they should say "if you're horde retri paladin, you have a better chance of not being bottom dps" This is absolutely nothing compared to blessing of salvation or kings at vanilla. I honestly think raids may end up not taking even one retri paladin and instead get a rogue/fury warrior for T6 content. We'll see how valuable judgement refresh will be
Yeah. xD Like what did they change under the no changes rules. xD Nothing. LMAO This spell batching which was removed in Warlords of Draenei is certainly nothing to think about. ROFLCOPTER
No I think they might. No changes caused so many problems that a majority are certainly in agreement that some tweaks would be accepted and appreciated.
Say this game is more about stuff then peladan's this is not the world of paladins so they can't give seal of blood to both sides if they do that then they have to give druids the agi stam racial... and since they gave seal of blood to both in wrath oh well now we need death knights in TBC... and druids need haste to affect their bleeds... 1/27th of the player base is not going to cause an imbalance
I hear you, that is a real concern in terms of a slippery slope. How would you try subtly nudge population balance towards 50-50? Do you think same faction race changes are a good way?
@@KnotxD I dont think you can cuz the reason many people played ally is because if their advantage in classic... I have only ever played alliance to lvl 30 when the game first came out due to the fact that my server was broke for 3 days when game first came out...even now alliance have horde alts already 60 on my server so the boundary to change isnt much....
@@Stompinwind Yeah that is kind of the fear for me. I'm glad I'm not the only one encountering large amounts of people prepared to flip flop for any degree of performance. Hope my little rant about draenei convinced a few not to bother though!
I highly doubt people are going to go out of their way to get a succubus buff. It’s 5 mins and melee sucks in tbc. Very few melee in raids. It’s really not going to be a thing. All that work for a 5 min buff??? No.
Threat is the bigger driver I think. Why wouldn't a feral druid or prot warrior take this buff for a parse attempt for both themselves and hunters/melee? It'd also allow warlocks to go full ham without as much soul shatters and arcane mages too.
Alliance should never get seal of blood, that will ruin the game for a lot of people. It's called seal of blood for a reason, it's for blood elves. I'm willing to compromise on slightly weaker versions of both seals being scryer or aldor like the guy below suggested but keep the original versions(slightly stronger) racial specific. Or if you do the other way around then give blood elves weapon expertise as well.
Игры
"pReTtY dEmOn"
Seal of Blood should be for Scryer paladins, Seal of Vengeance for Aldor :) neatest way to preserve its flavour while solving imbalance imo
I like this solution a lot, I think you're right. The only 'cost' is a barrier to minmaxing both prot and ret but I think thats a fair trade for 'optimal' seals for your preferred spec.
Not gonna lie. Vaati being here is the most random thing I've seen today. Btw, have a nice day.
I would have never guessed to see vaatividya commenting here :o
No, keep it the way it is. It's never been an issue. You will still have Ret paladins on alliance, they just won't be the sweat lord top parses in general. Then give blood elves weapon expertise.
What would the lore implications be of this choice? Need to check the fine print of an arcane tome.
Just make every world buff be dispelled on entering a raid. I don't want to deal with another logfest.
Agree it's fucking boring.
Then don’t do it. It’s your own fault you went along with it. If soooo many people hate wirld buffs then if they all stop doing it collectively then boom. World buff meta gone over night.
@@kirarozu It's the raid leaders forcing people to take it by giving loot priority to the ones that have it. I'll run my own guild and have none of that shit now.
@@KaLNFoRc3R You have a shitty RL. We go for worldbuff because we want to add as much value as possible to our guild, but when we don't have time, no one blames anyone on my guild.
@@kirarozu It's not your decision to make if you care to progress in a hardcore guild. And we see the world buff meta even creep into less hardcore ones too, for the guys who challenge each other and push each other to parse as hard as they can. Point is, min-maxing has infected the heart of the WoW Classic community and it's here to stay. The guilds that don't do it, are the more casual ones who take 3+ hours to clear content that take the better guilds 1.5 hours(or less) to. Be honest, who would you go with? If you answered "well I"d rather have fun and laughs with a less sweaty crowd" well hope that social group is capable of keeping that up 3 hours and multiple wipes later.
Female Draenei is BIS, good choice Knot.
Yeah, they should just clear all buffs upon entering instances. You can just rebuff inside. This also means you can't carry in buffs that can't be produced by members of your raid.
I liked and subbed when you said “don’t hit me with that stick”
That suc. buff could really help your tanks if their struggling to pump with crazy dps buttholes.
Talking about faction balance for tbc when alliance CLEARLY dominated the pve scene in classic. Alliance had their moment its now soon becoming hordes time to shine.
Yeah. Let's not think about the dead servers which where caused by the dominance of the horde. This type of playerbase cannot have the full advantage over both PvP and PvE at the same time. It only results in open word terror which is a HUGE concern on this smal island which is called TBC.
@@Seraphim262 maybe go check the pvp server balences before you talk, there are 4 horde controlled pvp/rppvp servers and 4 alliance controlled ones.
And pve servers there is 1 that is horde the rest are alliance.
Regardless of who is better at what, there should be an effort to keep servers balanced % wise. It just makes the game feel more alive and proper
Lol dream on 😅
Why don't you give orcs sword expertise while your at it
"didn't have much of this demographic back in 2007"
Oh no the degeneracy was there back then, trust me ;)
I was dead set on belf pally for a while, though after being on a high pop PVP server for all of classic, I'm ready to make the change to PVE for TBC. PVE servers seem to be overwhelmingly dominated by alliance on classic though, so I may end up going draenei shaman instead.
That's true, mirage raceway has a pretty big surge of population too around P3 when I was ranking. Went from a server I'd never see in BGs to always see just due to population shift.
Solid video.
Give alliance seal of Martyr
Lil bit of discussion on the Retribution Paladin discord(s), ever since the change on PTR Paladins can now Seal Twist any seal.
*ANY SEAL* ...even different ranks of the same seal!
I've been Seal Twisting rank 5 and rank 6 Seal of Command on my Ret Paladin and getting both seals to trigger from the same attack, with seperate procs per minute counters. Normally Seal of Command has a 6.8 Procs Per Minute counter, when twisting the two ranks of Seal of Command I was getting 9-12 Procs Per Minute (no swing timer on PTR so not perfect execution).
This matters because there aren't any different ranks for Seal of Blood, so Horde Paladins can't double dip into that. So the "re-introduction" of Seal Twisting isn't as much of a problem as you might think, we're still reduced to the SoC vs SoB difference though.
I see, that's really good to know. Thanks for sharing. So, ultimately twisting won't impact faction balance moreso than what would have 'already happened' in theory?
@@KnotxD As long as Blizzards new version of seal twisting remains? Correct.
Difference will then still be reduced to Seal of Blood vs. Seal of Command, which for several reasons favors Blood Elves, but not to the potential difference that it could’ve been.
To clarify Blizzards new Seal Twisting mechanics:
If you have a seal active and then change to a different seal then your previous seal will remain active for aprox ~0.4 seconds, this to mimic the old spell batching window that allowed Seal Twisting to be a thing- which Blizzard is a fan of. However this "mimic spell batching mechanic" also functions if you change between different ranks of the same seal, this might be unintended and if fixed (lets hope not) then it’s back to Blood Elf Paladins being miles ahead of Alliance Paladins.
Own
Ok, the chimpanzee scared the shit out of me, RUUUUDE
Haha! Sorry!
I hope they allow race changes in the transition to TBC. I wish I went Undead instead of Orc, but I'm already 60. I can only hope.
I really don't think nearly as many people are going to roll horde as people think. Like alliance outnumber horde across all servers right now. It's 53-47 ally favored. It might switch to horde but its not going to be even as bad as 30-70 horde. at most itll be 45-55 horde.
I hope so. And rightfully so the split shouldn't be horrendous, that's kind of what I'm trying to highlight - large audiences are being preached to as if it's really detrimental to not be Horde. At least from what I've seen - most times I see it on discord or Gchat etc as a topic, someone is convinced that everyone should be horde in TBC.
As a horde player for over a decade, I just hope that experience of hearing these comments doesn't translate to live. Alliance is cool. Hooves are nice in 2021.
@@KnotxD unfortunately too many people parrot what they see online without actually researching anything.
If the hellscream buff is not adressed im just going to play wotlk private servers untill classic wotlk
Yeah I'm super concerned about that buff. Even as a TBC aficionado I hadn't heard of it til I stumbled upon it mentioned and then on digging.... Genuine yikes.
@@KnotxD I'm interested as to why all the private TBC server kings like Crix, DrKael and all those guys never mentioned a word about this buff. All they ever talked about were drums, never anything about this. Why is that?
play it as it lies...
I don't think they'll give Alliance Seal of Blood and claim it is for lore reasons. If this is the case, a simple solution would be for them to buff Seal of Vengeance.
That's a fair take. Not sure what the gap is for retribution in regards to SoV and SoB but I suspect it could be tricky. As long as there is a somewhat balanced-is outcome I'd be happy.
The issue with seal of blood isn’t just about damage it deals to your target but it’s about the fact that the seal does damage to you and since you get mana when healed it helps with Paladin mana issues (as well as allowing the paladin to break cc in pvp) buffing vengeance doesn’t change these strengths that blood brings to BE paladins
Dumorne true. But a buff to vengeance anyways would still be a good way to go about it.
I'm shitting my pants at the thought that the chance to replay my favorite game of all time might be ruined by Blizzard by not addressing faction balance. Pls blizz. pls.
And add sated to drums. That's all I ask I promise.
And don't let bosses be a pushover :)
I hear you on the boss tuning. It'd be okay if Tier 4 is pretty easy but from Tier 5 they really need to ensure bosses are a little resilient. 2.4.3 boss tuning was really really poor on retail, I remember going back through T4 and T5 on an alt in a fresh guild and just mowing everything down with minimal wipes despite not being overgeared.
Hopefully blizzard have some subtle tweaks in mind for ensuring the game is successful. It's my favourite iteration of WoW also!
Bro so that chimpanzee sound scared the shit out of me
Is it giga loud? Maybe I need to change my approach on the sound bites =/
Thought I was the only one haha
WCL invalidation is the right way
Holy shit I hope those leaks are fake. I know Blizzard has done some scummy shit, but to actually force progression and then make people fucking pay to have their toons transferred back to classic realms...and there will be absolute hell raining down from the playerbase if they actually do tokens and boosts.
Yeah I'm a little dubious but if they're true, I think they are in trouble of not getting the 'free' quarterly hits from recycling TBC and presumably WOTLK.
Pretty sure they're fake. Releasing tier 5 on launch with no additional content for 7 months kills Classic TBC almost immediately.
@@Ajani. I agree, was the biggest red flag to me. It would be as if they didn't check their own data.
Lol i still can’t believe anyone actually believes that. Y’all really need to learn what constitutes a leak and what does not. Blizzard has NEVER made people pay to transfer when they change the game.
@@kirarozu Mate, have you seen the absolutely horrendous PR stunts Blizzard has pulled in the last couple years alone? Hong-Kong, Warcraft 3, and Diablo Immortal just to name a few. I really wouldn't put it past Blizzard to do this. But I hope with all my being it is indeed bs.
Wow im really glad , you dont work for Blizzard, the amount of controll you want to apply to gameplay is even greater then Blizzard s if they detect fun player's have.
im not on the no changes wagon, but giving seal of blood to us allies is too much.
Fair take. How do you feel about more subtle nudges towards population balance like same faction race changes?
@@KnotxD Same faction race change would be fine. I'd put my money on there being a lot fewer human warriors running around. I just don't want the soul of the game sapped for balance and min max culture. Giving seal of blood to ally pallies means your faction no longer identifies as the underdog. Your accomplishments will always have that intangible *balanced* asterisk hanging over your head. It's the intangible that brought us back to Classic.. Community, Immersion, Cannon Lore, Nostalgia, Character Investment, Class Identity. Not 99 parses and BiS. This change would fall in the latter category.
I mean, horde plays all of vanilla classic as the clearly inferior raiding faction. Just look at top 50 in any category and alliance will win because paladins are far superior to shamans that you need to bring 8 of.
Now in the next expansion, 1 spec of 1 class that some raids (not even all) will have 1 maximum in a raid is weaker and everyone is freaking out.
Seriously, pathetic.
Horde racials are better in pvp if you make up your scenario. Also at a rogue vs rogue, humans will always get the first sap, how about that?
That was the point I was making. Horde are better but the narrative that everyone should play horde cause the gap is huge is incorrect imo. I have no problem with what's best but if there are small things that can be done to stop the community convincing itself that horde is the only way, I think Blizz should do it if they are minor. Such as same faction race change etc. Its very evident in retail that the demographic shift to more and more horde players over time begins in TBC and I don't think anyone believes populations are balanced on retail between factions.
@@KnotxD true but this issue derives from new players choosing horde over alliance in new expansions not because of power levels but simply because alliance is boring - I don't think there's a solution for that.
Almost nobody currently playing will give up their server, character and guild because of one ability of an insignificant dps character, the effect comes from bis this bis that videos.
Retri paladin is a support dps class and videos should not say "horde is way better", they should say "if you're horde retri paladin, you have a better chance of not being bottom dps"
This is absolutely nothing compared to blessing of salvation or kings at vanilla.
I honestly think raids may end up not taking even one retri paladin and instead get a rogue/fury warrior for T6 content. We'll see how valuable judgement refresh will be
This. The discussions about sob is just irrelevant. Nobody cares about that 0.1% more dmg in a Raid caused by sob...
People are dreaming, they are not changing anything
Yeah. xD Like what did they change under the no changes rules. xD Nothing. LMAO This spell batching which was removed in Warlords of Draenei is certainly nothing to think about. ROFLCOPTER
No I think they might. No changes caused so many problems that a majority are certainly in agreement that some tweaks would be accepted and appreciated.
@@Hifcrea there was no no changes in classic. They changed a ton of stuff in classic. We did not get no changes.
The people demanding "no changes" are sweaty neckbeards who want to parse the fun out of the game. Again.
Say this game is more about stuff then peladan's this is not the world of paladins so they can't give seal of blood to both sides if they do that then they have to give druids the agi stam racial... and since they gave seal of blood to both in wrath oh well now we need death knights in TBC... and druids need haste to affect their bleeds... 1/27th of the player base is not going to cause an imbalance
I hear you, that is a real concern in terms of a slippery slope. How would you try subtly nudge population balance towards 50-50? Do you think same faction race changes are a good way?
@@KnotxD I dont think you can cuz the reason many people played ally is because if their advantage in classic... I have only ever played alliance to lvl 30 when the game first came out due to the fact that my server was broke for 3 days when game first came out...even now alliance have horde alts already 60 on my server so the boundary to change isnt much....
@@Stompinwind Yeah that is kind of the fear for me. I'm glad I'm not the only one encountering large amounts of people prepared to flip flop for any degree of performance. Hope my little rant about draenei convinced a few not to bother though!
Stop trying to get seal of blood you ally pallies. Midmaximg before game even out.
Let's not think about it and everything will be great again.
If the weak beta players want to waste time with world buff that's their choice.
Never done them so it doesn't affect me.
I highly doubt people are going to go out of their way to get a succubus buff. It’s 5 mins and melee sucks in tbc. Very few melee in raids. It’s really not going to be a thing. All that work for a 5 min buff??? No.
Threat is the bigger driver I think. Why wouldn't a feral druid or prot warrior take this buff for a parse attempt for both themselves and hunters/melee? It'd also allow warlocks to go full ham without as much soul shatters and arcane mages too.
People will definitely go out of their way to get bigger numbers. For sure.
Alliance should never get seal of blood, that will ruin the game for a lot of people. It's called seal of blood for a reason, it's for blood elves. I'm willing to compromise on slightly weaker versions of both seals being scryer or aldor like the guy below suggested but keep the original versions(slightly stronger) racial specific. Or if you do the other way around then give blood elves weapon expertise as well.