DId I change his mind about Vegans? - My Analysis
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- Опубликовано: 25 июн 2024
- Original video: • Muslim vs Vegan Street...
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Vegan for life💚💚💚
This channel ranks right up there with the best of vegan youtube. Great job, i love your style! ❤
Thank you! Glad you think so!
Thank you for standing up for animals ✊✊✊✊
Keep doing what you are doing!! Great content as always 💗💗💗
That was a really good conversation, and great analysis 💚
The current definition needs reviewing, I don't like it, too open to misuse. I far prefer the basic premise of Leslie Cross's 1951 definition "Man should live without exploiting animals"
That's a good distillation!
brilliant outreach + commentary❣
Great work. Thank you. Be vegan everyone 💚💚💚💚💚💚
I’ve been vegan 8 years never come across you before. Love this breakdown of the conversation. Respect to you✊🏻
That's because i'm new to the community. Thanks for the welcome!
Just found you. Love the calm way you got into his head. Keep up the good work 👍
with eyes unclouded “As soon as you start thinking from the victims point of view, change becomes really urgent”.
In the end we are confronted by any pain we caused another. And are allowed to feel what we caused to others. Scary thought.
Becoming vegan was so painful because I had to reflect on the injustices I had been complicite in. Not everyone is at a stage of maturity to confront themselves about it, which is why we get so much backlash.
Hi there, I resently found you channel and really like your approach! Thank you for what you do☺️🌱 I have some thoughts I like to share if that is alright! At 13:37 , when he starts saying things like "meat will still be on the plate" and talks about the 'future', I have a strong feeling he is talking less about stuff like rual areas or the rest of the world really, or indeed us. I think he knows better and just makes it about "others" in the moment kinda - I thought he might be involved with animal-work in the beginning also, but unless he said something I missed about where he works I think he might just be "passionate" about his own traditions and eating habits honestly, and maybe even also about animal abuse. I think he is holding on to a belief there when speaking, that: 'not in his time, will it be seen as morally wrong to do, by him, or by the people around him - and therefore he will not need to change either, and he will be able to continue doing it without having to think of your arguments and the implications of his actions on the animals'.. I think that is what he tried convincing you and himself of. Try looking at the things he says after also, "all these years you could not be bothered, and suddenly you woke up" - I indeed think he is actually speaking of himself/people close to him. And everything you paused and commented on after solitify that there is indeed high chance of more future 'pressure' for him to change what is on his plate.
- Really good point about telling people, not as an argument but more like a heads up, that it is not as hard or as different as people think in terms of "their enjoyment of life" basically to change their diet. It is an injustice, so we should not "dwell on it" most of the time. But as you said, alot of people have this misunderstanding and "wall up", which we have been given the oppertunity and conditioning to use as justifications, making it hard for people to use their conscious when "thinking of themselfs". This is for me such a good conversation overall when thinkingof how he came up to you - hopeful and inspiring content !
32:24 - Yes! I am being influenced a bit by the "don't talk to the troll" mentality that I think people in general and also many vegans have, and in reality I strongly believe most non-vegans and "trolls" are more in battle with themselfs, than us and the idea of not hurting animals. I really needed this video, such great points and skills you have, great video and I look foward seeing more!
Heyo thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Yeah with the future predictions, I think he was in the denial stage of grief haha. As later the subject came up of how all the shops were changing their stock to vegan products and he acknowledged it.
People are scared of change, especially those who benefit from the status quo. I feel like i have to do the dirty work of gently telling people news they don't want to hear. That's the first stage. Then I gotta explain to a guy who has never touched a vegan meat alternative in his life that they are tasty, healthy, convenient and on the whole a very good thing to get aquainted with. It's also really tough to get someone who is in a lifelong habit of thinking only of themselves about thinking for individuals they have never met.
Sometimes it's too much distance to cover in a single conversation, in which case it can become a game of pass the parcel where another vegan somewhere else in the world picks up the conversation with the guy and explains the rest.
@@with-eyes-unclouded I really apretiate your way of thinking, thank you for being active and sharing your thoughts!
Thank you for giving the animals a voice. They have no one.
They now have us. We can't let them down! I will never abandon them.
I am going round and round to ask every vegan channel the same thing so I’d ask here too: Do you also talk about animals killing and being abused in plant agriculture or it’s just one-sided?
I know you probably think you're serving up a hot zinger of a question here, but you're not. Crop deaths is top 3 most common questions asked by antivegans. So of course we talk about it. We talk about it all the time. The questions is... ARE YOU LISTENING? I'll paste 4 points here for your benefit:
1. Difference between intentional and unintentional harm:
Vegans don't demand products that inherently involve violence (i.e. there are ways to source vegan foods without violence and exploitation - namely vertical indoor farming, while non-vegans foods absolutely must involve violence and exploitation in some way).
2. Veganism minimises crop deaths:
While vegans absolutely acknowledge that to live is to cause harm, the practical solution to the problem of animals dying in crop harvesting is not to consume a diet that requires around 10 times more crops (due to the crops used to raised livestock) and maximises land usage, and then on top of that support the largest act of systematic oppression and violence in the history of this planet (2 billion animals murdered every single week via the meat, dairy, egg, leather, wool, and fish industries). There are also a lot of myths that go around that suggest vegans are actually responsible for more animal deaths than meat eaters. This has been thoroughly debunked.
Go to Lifting Vegan Logic or Debug your Brain to see thorough mathematical breakdowns
3. The farms of the world are run by non-vegans:
Anything to do with farming, currently, will have some form of harm involved, because of this Carnist food system we live under. If vegans ran the farms of the world, which will happen if we strive towards a vegan world, such practices as pesticide use and shooting "pests" would be eliminated entirely.
4. A certain amount of harm will inevitably be caused in order to maintain civilisation:
Unfortunately, whatever we do as humans to build an even half-decent and functioning society, there will ultimately be some accidental collateral damage as a result of that. For example, we support the construction industry, despite the fact this causes guaranteed deaths every year. Essentially, telling a vegan their actions are as bad as a non-vegan's because of crop deaths, would be like telling someone who lives in a house that their actions are as bad as someone who pays a hitman to murder people, simply because construction is a dangerous profession and results in guaranteed deaths every single year.
The crop deaths argument is a nirvana fallacy and tu quoque fallacy.
@@with-eyes-unclouded Thanks for your thorough response. Some counter questions for the benifits of others:
1. "namely vertical indoor farming" - How many 'vegans' source their food from these sources vs buying from truly 'vegan' with no/least harm? Is this really sustainable in terms of energy requirements and eco-friendliness. I would argue that animal produce raised in re-generative farming is a much better option.
2. 'Veganism minimises crop deaths' - I have been watching their videos. Here is my concerns in the "maths" a. Are all land equal in terms of cultivating plat food for all nutritional needs? b. Is plant nutritional value equals to the one from animal sourced (gram for gram - and I know LVL has once also said that Oreo is better than steak - so goes his logic but I think you are better).c. Is the seeds really being sown to feed animals or its for seed oil demand (primarily for vegans)? I by no means encourage factory farming but coming to the plant agriculture: a. What about soil damage due to tillage adn monocropping? b. How about pesticides/herbicides/inseticides plaughing and plowing?
3. 'The farms of the world are run by non-vegans' - OK, I would be interested in how vegan farming is done and whether its sustainable. Not only whether its sustainable but whether its re-generative. Meaning does it leave the soil in a better health after cultivating. After all, it all starts with soil, which naturally feeds on humans' / animals' organic material, which produces native plants and grass to keep the soil and its nutrients intact.
4. A certain amount of harm will inevitably be caused in order to maintain civilisation: Agreed. But to just shrug off the common questions labelling them to be "tu quoque fallacy" is not appropriate in my opinion. How is it concluded that the harm done by plant eaters is less than someone who source large cattle meat and eat one steak a day for example? Where are the numbers?
@@rahulrahul_awsjunkie
1) Indoor vertical farming is a perfect example of how you can grow crops with a death count of precisely 0. It merely demonstrates that killing is not an inherent part of the crop farming process. The number of vegans who are currently able to source their crops from vertical farming is irrelevant to my argument. See how you're veering off the point here? Even so, we can expect vertical farming to gain in popularity for many reasons both ethical and environmental. It requires far less land use (it's vertical), It's far more water efficient, climates can be controlled easier and it can be partitioned from the insects, birds and critters carnists claim to care about. Research it.
2) a) Different crops suit different biomes. There's a variety of biomes and land types across the world. Humans can benefit from eating a variety of different plants, but some of the most nutritionally dense and versatile that are ideal for food staples are wheat and soy. There is no sustainability concern here unless you invent one. And i'd like to remind you that land purpose can be changed By a variety of methods such as terracing, soil replacement, diverting water ways etc. We humans are masters of changing land use. b) Are you talking about nutritional density? Or net nutritional value? The density of foods can vary, and there's a variety of cooking methods to reduce high-volume crops into foods of high caloric / nutritional density. But the overall nutritional and caloric value of an area of land is always going to go to crops. Who knew : feeding crops to an animal that shits, generates body heat, kinetic energy and grows non-edible bones brains - is not as efficient than eating the plants themselves?
Here's a graph for calories:
vegansustainability.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/landuse.png
Here's a graph for protein: assets.ourworldindata.org/grapher/exports/land-use-protein-poore.svg
c) Why is soil erosion always pinned on the vegans? when vegans only make up a thin single digit % of consumers or just about any product (yes, including seed oils). Soil erosion MUST be primarily from non-vegans. Take soy for example: preview.redd.it/vegan-products-use-only-a-fraction-of-global-soy-supply-76-v0-rf8d2lqdy4kb1.png?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=0bbb49c547b1b63c1760e0b93f710c3cfa69bf40
There's nothing in veganism that states you need to erode soil. By all means, become a vegan and prevent soil erosion? Why is this even in the discussion?
3) Ah yes, enslaving animals for regenerative farming. Well if sustainability is your worry, we could save aprox 75% of the world's land by all switching to a vegan diet. miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:1400/1*Z1p19ruUhOAswNdJm5B9Fw.png
And with that saved land we can do.... whatever the fuck we want.
Communities can grow an abundance of crops, and export the excess to impoverished places in the world or better still they could re-wild the land. Surely re-wilding land is the most sustainable thing we can do? Forests sequester carbon, reduce surface runoff, improve soil and provide habitats for all species - not just the ones you might select as a "regenerative" farmer.
Asserting we need soil / fertilizer, when in fact we need the chemical compounds / nitrates within the soil / fertilizer. We don't need the billions of bodies of massacred 1-day old baby chicks, calfs and lambs to keep the soil healthy. The abundance of dead bodies is a recent occurrence in human history and the land was fine before.
4) You're making morally deficient utilitarian calculations. This is not in line with vegan ethics, so don't bring your consequentialism to a discussion about veganism. To see these beings as numerical populations and to run a cost-benefit analysis on is shallow, and disregards the inalienable rights of the individuals in question. You need to introduce some rights-based deontology into your philosophical framework, or else face the same moral criticisms of every utilitarian who came before you. In a cow - vs - multiple critters argument, the NATURE of the killing matters: ruclips.net/video/m8wnIFDSJgE/видео.htmlsi=5gI0e87761ub7O9P
To grasp this better, examine our human justice system to see how there are different sentences for self-defense / survival vs man-slaughter vs murder vs pre-meditated murder.
5) You risk speculating on phantom sustainability issues that Never materialize - in a bid to distract away from your own personal accountability. If you eat animal products, you are participating in an industry that ruthlessly violates the rights of animals. That doesn't change when you obfuscate through big-picture sustainability speculations. History will still remember you for perpetuating the enslavement of animals when you didn't have to.
6) In your speculations, you're imagining that the food industry will stand still for the next 50 years. Don't discount the ability of agricultural supply chains to adapt to changing market demands - as they always have done - as they have been for the past decade to meet the new demands of the ever-rising population of vegans and vegetarians in Europe. Don't discount the technology and man-power at command of the agriculatural industry. When the demand changes, they change. Enough with these fanciful far-fetched ideas that a movement BACK to predominantly plant-based agriculture will throw the world into famine / food scarcity / habitat loss.
7) Ask yourself: who is more suitable to tackle issues of crop deaths, pesticides, soil and environmental sustainability?: Vegans who are ideologically compassionate and respectful towards all species without prejudice, or carnists who are culturally indoctrinated to place the lives of certain humans (and often human corporate profitability) above the lives of animals? Which of these two populations will give a shit about these issues? The underlying ideology will matter in the long run.
8) Be careful to recognize internal biases that steer you back towards the status quo. How convenient it would be for you to find an excuse to refuse the moral imperative to change your lifestyle. That would explain your fixation with accidental crop deaths in the production of crops necessary for human survival.
@@with-eyes-unclouded There are lot more to type. So I will start one by one. First on vertical farming:
Indoor Vertical farming: OK. I have been researching on this. While it sounded promising in the beginning, cost and energy efficiency perspective, its questionable. Given the variety one needs for all nutrients, variety of lights requirements, maintenance requirements (Who will own and maintain this and how - with vertical buildings), heat requirements (And hence all the artificial energy requirements, not to mention the waste release), pollination requirements, it doesn't seem practical but let's see. Some of these will not apply if we can somehow manage a great renewable energy source but even then we have multiple factors to think about and for all practical purposes in my opinion the best we can do is co-exist this kind of farming (For certain plants) with re-generative farming (To improve soil quality rotating animals grazing and planting).
a. "Sustainability of vertical farming scrutinised amid rising energy prices: Surging costs could be the final nail in the coffin for many vertical farms"
www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Article/2022/11/09/sustainability-of-vertical-farming-scrutinised-amid-rising-energy-prices-surging-costs-could-be-the-final-nail-in-the-coffin-for-many-vertical-fa
b. "North America’s First Vertical Urban Farm Files for Bankruptcy"
brainstation.io/magazine/north-americas-first-vertical-urban-farm-files-for-bankruptcy
c. Vertical farming would be 100% reliant upon petroleum (a finite resource) -derived nitrogen:
"We took one small industry that most people have never heard of and found that its methane emissions were three times higher than the EPA assumed was emitted by all industrial production in the United States,"
www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190606183254.htm
d. Vertical farming would forever be 100% reliant upon destructive phosphate mining (also a finite resource):
"Strip mining for phosphate rock violently transforms the environment, irreparably changing the character of the natural landscape. In many cases mines displace plants and animals and eat up thousands of acres of valuable habitat that are impossible to restore to their natural state. "
www.biologicaldiversity.org/campaigns/phosphate_mining/
"Fatal flaws in vertical farming"
archive.vn/HndV7
e. Vertical farming would forever be 100% reliant upon destructive potash mining (another finite resource):
"Yes, potassium salt increases agricultural yields, but its extraction places a huge strain on the environment. Potassium salt, or potash, has been mined in this region for over 100 years. The waste left behind and the run off is proving a problem for Mother Nature."
www.britannica.com/video/179770/impact-potash-mining-environmen
f. Also, the mined phosphorous relied upon by vertical farming won''t be around in 100 years.
"Earth's phosphorus is being depleted at an alarming rate. At current consumption levels, we will run out of known phosphorus reserves in around 80 years, but consumption will not stay at current levels. Nearly 90% of phosphorus is used in the global food supply chain, most of it in crop fertilizers."
web.mit.edu/12.000/www/m2016/finalwebsite/solutions/phosphorus.html
g. "Vertical farming doesn't use natural sunlight to grow plants, it uses artificial lighting which requires high energy. According to a report, it would take about 1,200 kilowatt-hours of electricity to run the LED lights needed to produce 2.25 pounds of crops.
Also, vertical farms cannot yield all types of vegetables. Usually, they can only produce leafy greens, herbs, and tomatoes because these grow quickly. Other crops like potatoes, wheat, and rice have no place in such farms because they weigh more and require a larger space for growing."
www.ordermentum.com/blog/are-vertical-farms-the-way-of-the-future
h. Even the most prominent people out there who's actual job is promoting vertical farming in the real world aren't willing to blatantly lie about the potential of vertical farming:
"We should be realistic about the limitations of this technology. Vertical farming will never replace our traditional large-scale farms. It’s impossible.”
Melissa Spear, executive director, Tilth Alliance,
www.kuow.org/stories/vertical-farming
Here are some big red flags overall I can see adopting vertical farming:
- Proposal is to There will never be a way to replace free sunlight with electricity-dependent lights. Highly unlikely.
- Proposal is to replace free rainfall with electricity-dependent water pumps and petroleum-dependent PVC piping.
- Proposal is to remove the need for nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium fertilizer or a way to replace the efficiency of fertilizing crops with animal urine and manure.
We have regenerative ruminant grazing systems that are already reversing much of the damage caused by the crop agriculture you are relying upon for vegan's daily menu...
ruclips.net/video/jKXgVK0TQ1A/видео.html
How questioning its sustainability equals to veering from the topic when you yourself believes that this is how we can achieve the Nirvana for the "least harm"? Is it not the case?
Regardless, my original question was simply an ask for people to be transparent enough. Why someone has to defend industrial crop production? I openly condemn factory farming of animals given the way they live their lives. And that needs to change. At the same time whats stopping you from talking to others on what happens in plant agriculture? Ask questions to (ominivore or plant-based people) people on where they get plant (Or other vegan materials) the same way you question meat eaters.
@@rahulrahul_awsjunkie nah, you're not going to distract me from talking about the plight of the farm animals. You hardly addressed any of the more important points I made, you just got fixated on vertical farming.
If you love talking about sustainable farming so much from an environmentalist point of view, go ahead and ramble on. "I found this study that's skeptical of the benefits of vertical farming Blah blah blah"
"I have a different idea of the future of agriculture blah blah blah". You sure do love to beat around the bush.
Once again: do you agree with enslaving animals? For better or for worse, high welfare or no welfare, are you happy to enslave and exploit animals for your selfish purposes? How does that conflict with your values of freedom and justice?
For crop deaths: do you see accidental deaths, such as car crashes, as the same as homicide? Do you see deaths caused by survival - such as in self defense - as the same as premeditated murder? Why are you treating them the same?
How do you justify enslaving some species but never others?
Because i tell you right now, I wouldn't intentionally enslave anybody, regardless of whether they give us health / environmental / convenience benefits. It's wrong. You obfuscate instead of confronting this. You drew a hazy and meaningless distinction between "factory farms" - which you say you're against and "regenerative farms" which you can't stop talking about. No mention of the part where they're all loaded into cramped trucks and arrive at a dungeon where they are intentionally decapitated against their will. Would you send your housepet to a slaughterhouse? Why not?
If there were environmental benefits to killing children would you support it? What about high-welfare orphan children raised on regenerative farms? Why the difference in treatment? Name the trait.
please do more analysis videos!! 🩶
Alright will do!
@@with-eyes-unclouded thank uuuu this is an awesome channel and my favorite 🩶🩶🩶 love ur approach
Human slavery still exists. I think that's important to keep in mind when bringing that topic up. Also remember that slaves always knew that slavery was wrong. There was never a point when "everyone" knew that slavery was OK just like there was never a time when "everyone" thought utilizing animals for human pleasure was ok.
Subscribed, keep sharing the truth
Maybe his dad made no effort with him and only showed up after 40 years trying to get back in his life
Animals are so kind, gentle and loving. People shoukd be more like them. They are trusting souls and just want to love and please.
I agree ✨ we pride ourselves too much on intelligence when we should pride ourselves on kindness and virtue.
I agree. I eat animals like the mass majority of other animals that eat other animals
@@GarudaLegends actually, about 75% of the world's land animals are herbivores. Humans are omnivores, meaning they have adapted to be able to eat animals but can also eat only plants.
@@with-eyes-unclouded that is false. About 62% of the animals on earth eat other animals. You made that up. Rotf. Humans are omnivores and not herbivores. You cannot live on only plants. Lol. You will be deficient, and have to take drugs from the pharmaceutical industry. Supplementsa nd fortified chemicals are not plants, and why over 80% of vegans the diet when they get sick and. Vegans love making up nonsense, and it is hilarious.
Please try living only on plants and take no supplements, no medicines, and dont eat any fortified food. You will see hove wrong you are. This is why meat eaters live longer than vegans in age and have a higher life expectancy, why vegans have a short and have to live on drugs from a lab their entire short lives. Please educate yourself.
30:00 why shouldn’t animals slave all trait equilivant rights. A licence is a privilege not a right. We don’t allow certain people to have driving licenses such as mentally or physically disabled including the blind and also children. Similar to voting etc
That checks out! Trait equivalent rights, yes.
@@with-eyes-unclouded yeah so same rights but just like humans we don’t allow certain things due to numerous things like age, intelectual ability etc
Sorry can't watch, as you keep interrupting the video a bit to much for me.
Keep up the good work and good luck to you
my bad, I did interrupt it a bit too much
Wow. You have passed with flying colours from the Joey Carbstrong/David Ramms school of narcissism and indoctrination.
Why do you fight battles that you think you've already won? If veganism is so obviously wrong in your mind, why waste your time? The truth is you are trying to convince yourself. Good luck
Don’t think any of the examples you gave of people centuries ago were Vegan, they were probably predominantly plant based, as much as I like Mahatma Gandhi, he wasn’t a Vegan he used Dairy. The actual Vegan Society was founded in 1944 in England, unless proven otherwise I don’t think there were any past peoples(s) who lived in alignment to Vegan philosophy. 🌻✊🏽🌎
al-Ma'arri
Yeah most of the quotes were from people who did not live a vegan lifestyle. Those were examples of vegan ethics in public discourse throughout written history. And coincidentally, these people are seen as the ethical "heroes" of history.
I think using the birth date of the official definition somewhat disregards the thinkers who paved the way for veganism, as well as the practicing vegans who were so before the definition was coined.
Al-Ma'arri is one we know of because he wrote about it, but it's highly likely there were his disciples and others who reached a similar conclusion.
People say Jesus ate fish or God gave us dominion over the animals. But he didnt say kill them. He gave dominion over the wife but you dont eat her.
God told us what animals to eat. He also said tnot kill humans and never said to eat your wife. What are you even talking about.
Animals are not slaves. Buy a dictionary. They are food or pets for humans. Are you going to say a vegans owning a pet hamster is enslaving the hamster? Animals will never have rights bro. Will you give rights to a rodent from not being eaten by a chicken?
Am i going to get arrested for killing a mosquito or eating a salmon?
Meat will never be illegal and sales will always be in high demand. Look at how beef sales are rising in india.
If you want to eat rabbit food, that is fine. Humans are a omnivores and making meat illegal is a HUMAN RIGHT VIOLATION.
Fear not, I am here to educate ✨
I know it is a hard pill to swallow, so if it upsets you too much to hear the word slavery, we don't have to use it. Watch dominion 2018 and ask yourself if the standard way we are treating domesticated farm animals is "right" or "wrong". We don't have to dance around the semantics if it's too much to handle. Most of your other remarks are just trying to distract away from the industry you're paying for.
If domesticated farm animals / labor animals like donkeys are not slaves, then what would it look like if we DID enslave them? Describe how they would live?
We can see what free animals look like in the wild.
Now onto your other ideas: regardless of your speculation of the future of rights, animals are deserving of protective rights, and that's all that matters. It's about justice, not popularity. To get ones opinions from what is popular at the time is cowardly.
Wild animal deaths: Rights can only be taken by someone with moral agency. Non-human animals lack moral agency, so their violence is a danger, but not a crime. It's important to understand the difference. For example, people who suffer from insanity are treated as a danger and not held morally responsible for violence.
Mosquitos: it should go without saying that you have the right to protect your own body from harmful invaders.
Rabbit food: haha bro if you only knew the kinds of meals I'm eating as a vegan, you would not call it rabbit food. It shows how much you have to learn about food, and how far you're willing to go to strawman the vegan position.
!
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