Video @ 7:38 "Far better photo's from a color sensor" - Matt, having used the Monochrome Leica's, they're truly for the photographers looking for 4x5 (large format) resolution etc. - For WOW factor enlargements, NOTHING can beat the incredible Monochrome models. Plus, the smooth transitions of the B+W tones in a poster sized image is jaw dropping...
I have the Leica Q2M. I had a first one and made the mistake to sell it and bought a Q2. What a mistake ! I sold it back and bought another Q2M. Today I'll receive my M11M. I'm all the way monochrom sensor, and won't ever look back. But that's just me, and yes, I'm officially broke now ! Hahahaha
Great comparison Matt!, including with lenses. I have a new to me used Q2M and I’m loving it. I am thinking about the Q3 and take your point about color adjustments in B&W, although the mono is more sensitive in low light. Thoughts? Have you done a similar Q2M-Q3 comparison? Thanks. Geoff
Thanks Geoff, see my big Q, Q2, Q3 video. I've not compared the Q2M but if you shoot in the dark it might help if you stop your lens down. For normal use f1.7 on any Q camera is fine in low light.
Hi Matt, Great to see another video. I love shooting with my M10M....I agree that not having the RGB sliders in LR (I use Capture One) do limit things a bit. However, next time you get your hands on a Leica Monochrom, try to make sure you have some filters...I keep a yellow on mine at all times...but on bright days, I throw on orange and even red at times. Those will REALLY enhance your contrast and it was a game changer for me. Just some thoughts.... Take care, see you on the next round of videos!! CC
I will add from myself. I find it convenient to shoot in manual mode on the M11 or M9 without an electronic screen. If you like to focus through the screen, then perhaps the Hassel X2D will be better for you than the SL or M.
If you see tonight's video I focus via the screen but that's unusual. I think screen users are normally those using AF lenses (like Sony). I tend to use MF glass.
My trick for precision rangefinder focusing wide-open with my M10 is looking for the sharpest eye possible. It's easy to get the rough alignment, but when focus is perfect, there is a subtle but unmistakable clarity of the subject's eye inside the patch. It usually takes me a few seconds to get there though. Somehow, I was lucky to get a used M10 that, when paired with my 50 1.2 Nokton, gave me perfect calibration. I know I can trust the rangefinder, even at f/1.2. I will say that now that I know how well it works, and how rare that can be, I'm babying the camera. I'll let you know if it goes out of alignment.
Thanks, yes I used to use my Noctilux 50 f1 on my M8 + M9 for weddings wide open and think it was normal so it is possible. Great to hear yours is well calibrated.
Great portraits of that stunning woman! Matt, do you find the SL to heavy to carry when walking around taking interesting photos or do you use it more for portraits while taking smaller Leica's for walking?
Thanks. I’ve just completed a week of walking round with the SL and I missed the M cameras. Yes SL for fast glass portraits, M for street and walkabout photos .
Sorry for not sharing your opinion... I have a Leica m11 and the New m11 Monochrome.-the m11 monochrome apart from being able to take photos at 100,000 iso without noise and optimal quality... offers a unique contrast... I can't imagine living taking photos with an inferior machine, knowing that with the appearance of the monochrome m11 they could turn out better,,
I was wandering too. At the end, I'll keep my non monochrome M because even if shooting B&W is a good way to improve the way you look and shoot ; even if some pictures are highly magnified in B&W, some deserve color. It's an added pleasure to choose between B&W and color for the same image in post prod.
Hi Matt! The M11M is impressive but complete overkill. My house and walls and those of my customers are too small to ever use that kind of resolution. I think as you said correctly at the end that we have reached a point in M rangefinders where we got crazy sensors and lenses but are lacking the accuracy to focus them properly. Using my M lenses on the SL has brought out all their maximum performance that I never got on the M due to tiny inaccuracies in focus. EVF for the win.
Thank you for those views.I was particularly interested in your analysis of the experience of an M camera versus an SL camera when it comes to shooting fast lenses wide open. It took me a long time to take the plunge but recently I bought a second hand SL2-s because a really sharp image wide open with a summilux 50 or a summicron 90 on my M10 was the exception rather than the rule and I was fed up with it. I accept some of that could be my fault in that my technique is not perfect but I take a lot of care and I expect most people fall short in the technique department despite their best efforts and years of taking pictures. The experience with the SL2-S was a revelation. It is a truly wonderful camera to use with these lenses because everything works effortlessly and focus is effortless every single time. The SL2 -s (and I am sure the earlier SL) is a true Leica with superb build quality. I am enjoying it so much I am seriously considering selling my M10. I probably won't because I agree with your suggestion that if you use it for the slower wider lenses it is great. I really wonder if Leica fully intend their high resolution sensors coupled to high resolution fast lenses to be used with rangefinders these days? I know the rangefinder was re-designed for the M10 onwards and is as good as it can be but it is still technology from a past age with very different requirements to today. I think it is entirely possible that Leica now see the electronic viewfinder (and IBS) as the only way forward. Their next M camera will be a very interesting pointer.
Thanks and great to hear you have discovered the SL2-S. After a week of street / travel photos since M cameras definitely win for this bit for portraits SL series are better.
To me dioptre is the measure of the power of the lens, so what you are seeking is dioptre adjustment. The Leitz adverts are correct as they are qualifying the power of the lens, +/- x dioptre. My R4 does not have built in adjustment either. Adjustment lenses are rare and expensive, but rather than spent $9395 I was fortunate and had cataract surgery by the NHS.
I'm no expert, but could part of the problem with monochrome cameras be that after stripping out the red, green and blue filters from the sensor, the resulting images are then viewed on a screen which comprises red, green and blue dots? I note from a comment below, that large prints are the medium to really notice a difference, and I am inclined to believe that. Perhaps I will be in a better position to comment when I get my hands on the Pentax K-3 III Monochrome, though that is APS-C, of course. I don't feel I can justify to myself spending over £7k on a monochrome camera as my first love is colour photography, but maybe I will, change my mind. After all, back in my prehistoric film days, I preferred B&W photography, but probably because I was able to develop and print the photos myself.
thats the reason why I will give away my M8 and the Epson RD-1. My old eyes are not made for the range finder patch anymore :D Q2M is fine and even the small Ricoh GXR with Leica mount is fine
Your photography friend is a man after my own heart. A number of years ago I went to Walmart to buy a new toothbrush and came home with a new car. My family suggests that I have an intervention if I just mention that I may be going to a Leica store. I have a chrome M11 and a M10 Monochrom. I thoroughly enjoy the M10M but do agree with you when it comes to editing the color conversions to b/w. As always, I never miss one of your videos.
I have a M10M too...and love it. Do you use filters on your monochrome? I keep at least a yellow on mine lenses at pretty much all times....and on bright days, the orange and even red at times. The monochrome is SO sensitive, I don't mind keeping heavy filters on them all the time...and it really opens up for great shots. If not, give filters a try and see if it helps.... Have a great day, CC
I generally use a yellow filter as well as exposure compensation or bracketing to prevent blowing out highlights. Sometimes it’s just nice or even necessary to have more editing tools at my disposal. That’s when the M11 b/w conversions come to the rescue. Best of both worlds.
Matt, a great review on both the M11 and M10M. I've been shooting Leica film cameras for many years, my first Leica digital was an M246 Monochrom which was a fantastic camera, but for the sensor issues! I traded it in for an M10R and to be honest I did miss the M246 at first, but the diversity of the colour digital sensor is just brilliant, and the monochrom jpegs straight from the camera are excellent, especially for web work and smaller prints. As much as I like the look and results of the M11M, if I do happen to seek out the M11, it will be the colour one, in black!
Thanks! I’ll likely update my M240 for a M10 model at some stage. This probably wasn’t a fair review of M bodies. I do love them for travel, just less for fast glass portraits
Thanks.. I must try to use the M11 again and next time use for street and travel. I've missed having a M body on my latest trip as the SL is a little too big for street/ travel.
Thanks for another interesting review, Matt. I am not sure i am interested in having that many megapixels, quite frankly, and i am not in a the market for new gear anyway, but it is always great to see what is coming out. Regarding the 'advantage' of shooting in colour and then converting, i have to respectfully disagree. The advantages of the monochrome sensors are quite apparent, once you start using one consistently; i have been shooting my (CCD) MM for years (plus a Sony RX1 that i had converted to monochrome), and i am still in love with the results....the secret is to use SIlver Efex for your processing - it should be mandatory for any monochrome camera, you get ALL the nuances you need and more.
Thanks, good tip for the software. I’m happy with B&W film but strangely I get better digital results from colour converted (** I view in B&W so they convert as I remember the scene with preset added)
I finally followed your advice on this and got the diopter, the LLL. Luckily I did not have to bear the expense of the M11. You were right in your many remarks about how helpful the diopter is. Thanks. PS, the RGB vs B&W post editing is spot on.
I live in the USA but went to the same store about 6 months ago…. Luckily only cost me a new 35mm Summilux! 😂 A question…. When I think 60MP I think how many pixels in x and y is that? Both the M11 and M11mono say 60MP, and about 9.5k x 6.3k pixels. But how does that work? The color sensor uses a Bayer RGBG format, so it takes 4 mono/filtered pixels to make a single colored pixel. So how do the two camera have the same x/y pixel count? Shouldn’t the mono be 4x the pixels since when the Bayer filter is removed now all 4 pixels are individual monochrome detectors. I don’t understand what’s going on? Any idea?
Thanks Mark, glad your visit was a little cheaper! :) I’m not a tech expert but as I understand both cameras quite the same MP but all Monochrom cameras have the equivalent of 4x more. (Someone that is smart that me will confirm I’m sure).
Mark, the answer is simple: Someone has misinformed you about how Bayer sensors work. They don't combine four filtered pixels into a single pixel. Each sensor pixel is recorded separately. A green-filtered pixel (for example) has its green value recorded directly, while its red and blue values are calculated from the readings from the adjacent red and blue pixels. This means that while each sensor pixel has values for all three colors, only one of those values is an actual measurement; the other two are estimates. This actually works better than you might think, because most of the eye's perception of detail and texture comes from the pixel's luminance (brightness) value, which IS measured separately for every pixel; it's only the chroma (color) value that is partly estimated. So the only real penalties of an RGB sensor vs. a monochrome sensor are that boundaries of different-colored areas can (sometimes) show color impurities, and the absorption of the filter costs about one stop of light. (Side point: people have tried other ways of deriving R, G and B values for each pixel, but mostly the only result has been to prove that Bryce Bayer was very, very smart.)
Will that help me to be a better photographer? I'd like a link to the images... Regards from a Leica, Rolleiflex, Hasselblad & Nikon *mechanical* _film_ shooter.
Any camera that makes you go out and shoot more will make you better but you can do that with cheaper Leica too (As I do) Sorry I don't have a link to the photos. You'll find some shared full res on Flickr if you follow me there.
Hello Matt, I say good on the chap with his new M11. But a bit off topic I just find it funny that when I or some one choose a Hasselbled at £7400 ish I get so much heat or silly message but this chap buy a very good / great bit of kit in the M11 at £8300 ish and know one bats and eyelid. I say if the kit you buy give you pleaser and help you create work that you need or wont then great. Keep well, keep safe and love the work you do.
Thanks John! .. and yes if this video was shared in a general photography group it would go ripped to shreds too I think, fir the prices (especially). Leica folk know stuff is expensive and just accept it. Whether they buy is a different matter.
My only taste of the monochrome Leica`s is my 246. After shooting that I find it difficult to go back to the colour bodies . Apart from it being BW (obviously) the quality is simply stunning .I can only imagine what the M11 must be like.
Thanks, yes there is the M10M too. I still prefer colour sensors, view in B&W, and add my MrLeica B&W presets to the RAW files (so I only ever see B&W) for the best results with models.
First thing, my Wotancraft bag arrived… looks about perfect for my M11 Monochrom. But now the elephant in the room… one cannot judge the M11 Monochrom having never actually shot it. The mindset of how to take an image is completely different if you know from the onset that there will be no color data captured. You primarily think about different things. It’s no longer just a by chance… “hey this might look good in monochrome”. It is instead, a deliberate mission to seek out striking compositions, that invoke emotion by the thoughtful use of luminance. Matt… give it a real try then give us an update.
Thanks. Yes I do shoot all cameras in B&W preview so I shoot for light/ texture/ shape etc. When I used Q2M vs Q I preferred the resulting Q files. M10M vs M240, the same BUT as you say I’ve never given them a chance. I’m sure I could make it work for me if I change my works flow. Congrats on your bag!
I agree with you on the use of the color sensor to obtain BW images because you can simulate the effects of BW contrast filters even though the Mono sensor produces better detail. That being said, I still prefer HP5+ and Tri-X to digital BW files. For BW I stick with my M3, M6, F5 and F6.
I recently tried the M10 and REALLY enjoyed it. I was looking at the M11 because I want an M camera to get and keep for many years. The newer the camera, the longer lasting the electronics, etc will last in my opinion. It's things like this that are making me not want to go with an M camera and are making me consider the Sl2s bundles. Leica is still offering the huge $1300 discount and there's so many things I wouldn't have to deal with out of the M11...freezing issues, RF that needs alignment every once in a while, CLA and long times to get my camera back from Leica, etc. In your opinion, do you think the Sl2s with the new 50mm f2 asph is small enough to daily carry around in a sling, or is it too big a monster? Also, do the photos from the Sl2s still retain the "Leica look", or do they look oversharpened and more Panasonic than Leica
I love small setups but have grown to love the SL. It’s bigger but it’s so good I still prefer to carry it. With new Pany-Leica 50 f2 they are lighter so would make ok setup. I’d go with M glass if you want smaller and more character, like me (on SL series). ..if get bundle can keep kit lens for when don’t need as small. Optically very nice. 35mm goes super close too.
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom I ended up passing on the SL2s deal because it’s just a bit more in size than what I’d like to carry (I ride the motorcycle very often and take pictures at places I travel on it). Still thinking about the m11 and the 50mm Summicron f2…do you think this camera could last 8-10 years?
For many years , I have used my SONY cameras and vintage lenses to great effect ,, sadly have not shot pretty girls , I am humble .... no Doctor here ... In spite of my limitations , or maybe through my limitations , I have used the Sky the Nature , and dynamacism to reach great heights of expression , and have eaten great detail , in the process, I have always converted color to BW files in Post .... I have not used LR or PS enough ... I need a bigger screen for these eyes .... still , using the Nature and skies and what I live in , and about ... understanding converting files ..... been doing that for years. One thought a difference ... Film is Photography , it is imperfect and difficult , my M3 ( 1958 ) and the coming .. M A Leica , and the venerable Nikon F3 are teaching me , patience and confidence , you must trust yourself .... this is difficult. Digital is " imaging " Film is " Photography " , there is a vast difference in process and the latitudes , in each. I think Film requires more confidence , and faith in one's skills , whilst Digital .... well a child can do that.
Thanks Chris.. we think alike.. I wanted to be back to basics so I use a 1931 Leica Standard.. I then zone focus only and estimate the light / metering.. it doesn't get more pure than that. Love it.
I used our Leica M11 M for a week now. Iit is our first Leica camera. We also use Canon cameras like R5 and 1DX. The main reason I was interested in Leica is image quality, black and white sensor, high quality and light lenses and that the camera is so small and light. One thing Im a little bit unhappy is that when you zoom in in the viewfinder to get focus then the frame rate is really slow so it is a bit hard to focus. Otherwise great in every way.
I am not in a position to afford the M11 or Mono. Nor any new Leica. Nor would I. I am no longer a pro. Even when I was my Leica M3/M2/M6TTL were for reportage, some weddings. It was SLR! Digital opened a new world! I could litterally expose till I dropped. That's not good. I hate, HATE editing. The higher megapixels are a bind. A few years ago, my Nikon D50 was 6mp! It was sufficient for the size prints I make. Canon Eos5 was only 2mp more! I have never been envious of newer equipment. Some new features are a myth. The mis-focus-auto-focus. I prefer direct focus with a good viewfinder made for human eyes, not the auto-gizmo. When I was exausted after hours of shooting, wedding, The Rangefinder simply the best! Purchasing faster PC etc. not in my thoughts! I always knew the Hasselbald with Zeiss lenses was way ahead of my 35mm! When I went to Medium Format, It was Mamiya C seriesTLR and lenses. Because the film runs straight in MamiyaC and pentax 6x7, the Zeiss lenses were NOT that much better! Color on film, I was prisoner to my Pro Lab! Applause to the man who loaned you his New Leica! Bravo! Great images from all your cameras! I have a dedicated Digital, only for BW. It's CCD. It simply is perfect.Your site one of the best!
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom I agree though. If you’re not a rangefinder lover or your eyesight is failing then maybe it’s time to let go of Leica or go SL. A lot of guys in the Leica forums complaining they can’t see anything but the SL is too big. I want to say to them to just let it go and use any of the wonderful mirrorless cameras available. But I’m banned from there so 😅
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom Hello! My four week summer vacation just started today. Loading camera batteries and watching RUclips. I'm a fan of the old B&W movies like Dracula (with Bela Lugosi), Mummy, The Invisible Man etc. It would be fun to create my own movie posters for them. With the M11M + Thambar-M and other lenses.
Thanks for the video Matt! I gotta disagree with you about the Monochrom cameras haha, you just need to learn how to edit a monochrom image, as it's much different than RGB. Always love watching your take!
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom for sure! Nothing like bnw film, but the Monochrom cameras are as close as it gets for me at least! Thanks again for the great video!
It is kind of strange, I had two M9s and M 240, it was ok then, I could buy M11 tomorrow, but I just do not want it. SL (now sold) and presently SL2S with SL lenses and via Leica adapter Leica M lenses is for me lot more pleasurable to use then any M could do.
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom Just this minute got back from Reddot. Now the proud owner of a Voigtlander Nokton 50/F1. Managed a good trade in deal. Walked back past the Barbican, brought back memories. . .
@@flashback9966 congrats! Great lens. Hopefully see you at a future group event. It’s difficult to find everyone free on the same day it seems (so far)
Now that's one pricey diopter ! lol 🤣 However, being a Leica fan I get it which is why I stay away from Leica Stores. If you hold one you're probably gonna want it !
Nice to have that kind of money. A monochrome sensor does not show its strength unless you shoot in very low light at very high isos. Here the lack of noise, high dynamic range and the extra resolution of the monochrome sensor will reign supreme, and the Bayer Matrix sensors do not even come close, otherwise save your money.
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom 😁👍🏼 And a good calibrated screen. Remember your pc is your digital dark room. New noise cancellation AI in LR is amazing. Pixel enhancing software is really becoming magical. So one lens less for a good post proces with the right software really contributes to a better end result 🤓
I definitely probably maybe almost certainly perhaps NEED one of these. Fortunately, (for my health as my girlfriend would get seriously evil on my ass) I don't have any money so I cant get one. Phew- crisis averted.
Replace your girlfriend with a M11 Monochrome; considering that all human relationships are short-lived; whereas love for one’s creative hobbies will outlast any human relationship.
I’ve pretty much lost any interest in acquiring more Leica gear. Recently got interested in amateur radio and the value/utility equation for me is pretty stunning. Panasonic tech with a red dot 🔴 stuck on the front gets old after awhile.
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom I’m probably going to keep my M6 and a core set of lenses 21/24/28/35/50/75/90 but I will sell some of my Leica lenses and replace them with Voigtlander that is really kicking it on IQ/value lately. My Noctilux alone could almost completely kit out my new Ham shack with top quality Yaesu and ICom gear.
It’s all detailed on MrLeica.com - It’ll be cheap for some but expensive for others I think (but I teach private 1:1 so hopefully good value for this).
Matt : You got me to seriously go into Film Leica M bodies , in tiny bites , but now .. .You have discovered the " great Cheat " ... I have used for a long long time, to walk across " Time Stamps " , you see .... I do not just shoot humans although I love to , I shoot TIME and shooting time , well this required another complete discipline ... to capture Time. I wonder revealing a secret .... how many understand ? It is not what you spend , it is not the label ... it is .. .the EYE , and to shoot time ... yes. Acquired " bent " .
Thanks Chris, agree, it's time out practicing the art that is the fun bit. I was walking the streets today for 6 hours taking photos. Not a single model!
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I'm heading over to check out your presets for my SL2-S.
Video @ 7:38 "Far better photo's from a color sensor" - Matt, having used the Monochrome Leica's, they're truly for the photographers looking for 4x5 (large format) resolution etc. - For WOW factor enlargements, NOTHING can beat the incredible Monochrome models. Plus, the smooth transitions of the B+W tones in a poster sized image is jaw dropping...
Thanks yes for the online images I share it’s difficult to see the full benefits of high res sensors / Monochrom
I have the Leica Q2M. I had a first one and made the mistake to sell it and bought a Q2. What a mistake ! I sold it back and bought another Q2M. Today I'll receive my M11M. I'm all the way monochrom sensor, and won't ever look back. But that's just me, and yes, I'm officially broke now ! Hahahaha
Haha, nice. At least you get there eventually!
Great comparison Matt!, including with lenses. I have a new to me used Q2M and I’m loving it. I am thinking about the Q3 and take your point about color adjustments in B&W, although the mono is more sensitive in low light. Thoughts? Have you done a similar Q2M-Q3 comparison? Thanks. Geoff
Thanks Geoff, see my big Q, Q2, Q3 video. I've not compared the Q2M but if you shoot in the dark it might help if you stop your lens down. For normal use f1.7 on any Q camera is fine in low light.
Hi Matt, Great to see another video.
I love shooting with my M10M....I agree that not having the RGB sliders in LR (I use Capture One) do limit things a bit.
However, next time you get your hands on a Leica Monochrom, try to make sure you have some filters...I keep a yellow on mine at all times...but on bright days, I throw on orange and even red at times. Those will REALLY enhance your contrast and it was a game changer for me.
Just some thoughts....
Take care, see you on the next round of videos!!
CC
Thanks CC! Yes for non portraits I agree for using filters. I’m less of a fan for portraits (when I shoot B&W film)
Leica store visits are always expensive. Congrats on his M11M.
Thanks RJ, I like your view of the world 👍🏻
Yes, actually "free access" is a big lie. 😑
Great video and summary of the use case for M vs SL systems 🙏🤗
Thanks!
I will add from myself. I find it convenient to shoot in manual mode on the M11 or M9 without an electronic screen. If you like to focus through the screen, then perhaps the Hassel X2D will be better for you than the SL or M.
If you see tonight's video I focus via the screen but that's unusual. I think screen users are normally those using AF lenses (like Sony). I tend to use MF glass.
My trick for precision rangefinder focusing wide-open with my M10 is looking for the sharpest eye possible. It's easy to get the rough alignment, but when focus is perfect, there is a subtle but unmistakable clarity of the subject's eye inside the patch. It usually takes me a few seconds to get there though. Somehow, I was lucky to get a used M10 that, when paired with my 50 1.2 Nokton, gave me perfect calibration. I know I can trust the rangefinder, even at f/1.2. I will say that now that I know how well it works, and how rare that can be, I'm babying the camera. I'll let you know if it goes out of alignment.
Thanks, yes I used to use my Noctilux 50 f1 on my M8 + M9 for weddings wide open and think it was normal so it is possible. Great to hear yours is well calibrated.
Great portraits of that stunning woman! Matt, do you find the SL to heavy to carry when walking around taking interesting photos or do you use it more for portraits while taking smaller Leica's for walking?
Thanks. I’ve just completed a week of walking round with the SL and I missed the M cameras. Yes SL for fast glass portraits, M for street and walkabout photos .
Sorry for not sharing your opinion... I have a Leica m11 and the New m11 Monochrome.-the m11 monochrome apart from being able to take photos at 100,000 iso without noise and optimal quality... offers a unique contrast...
I can't imagine living taking photos with an inferior machine, knowing that with the appearance of the monochrome m11 they could turn out better,,
Thanks Walter! I’ll try to test the M11M properly once they are more available. Agree for low light they are better.
I was wandering too. At the end, I'll keep my non monochrome M because even if shooting B&W is a good way to improve the way you look and shoot ; even if some pictures are highly magnified in B&W, some deserve color.
It's an added pleasure to choose between B&W and color for the same image in post prod.
Thanks Marc, yes I still have no interest in B&W sensor cameras even as a B&W shooter. I can get better results in good light with RGB + my presets.
Hi Matt!
The M11M is impressive but complete overkill. My house and walls and those of my customers are too small to ever use that kind of resolution.
I think as you said correctly at the end that we have reached a point in M rangefinders where we got crazy sensors and lenses but are lacking the accuracy to focus them properly. Using my M lenses on the SL has brought out all their maximum performance that I never got on the M due to tiny inaccuracies in focus. EVF for the win.
Thanks Andy, yes got fast glass especially SL series make a lot more sense. (21mm 1.4 perhaps the exception as can use easy on M too).
Thank you for those views.I was particularly interested in your analysis of the experience of an M camera versus an SL camera when it comes to shooting fast lenses wide open. It took me a long time to take the plunge but recently I bought a second hand SL2-s because a really sharp image wide open with a summilux 50 or a summicron 90 on my M10 was the exception rather than the rule and I was fed up with it. I accept some of that could be my fault in that my technique is not perfect but I take a lot of care and I expect most people fall short in the technique department despite their best efforts and years of taking pictures. The experience with the SL2-S was a revelation. It is a truly wonderful camera to use with these lenses because everything works effortlessly and focus is effortless every single time. The SL2 -s (and I am sure the earlier SL) is a true Leica with superb build quality. I am enjoying it so much I am seriously considering selling my M10. I probably won't because I agree with your suggestion that if you use it for the slower wider lenses it is great. I really wonder if Leica fully intend their high resolution sensors coupled to high resolution fast lenses to be used with rangefinders these days? I know the rangefinder was re-designed for the M10 onwards and is as good as it can be but it is still technology from a past age with very different requirements to today. I think it is entirely possible that Leica now see the electronic viewfinder (and IBS) as the only way forward. Their next M camera will be a very interesting pointer.
Thanks and great to hear you have discovered the SL2-S. After a week of street / travel photos since M cameras definitely win for this bit for portraits SL series are better.
To me dioptre is the measure of the power of the lens, so what you are seeking is dioptre adjustment. The Leitz adverts are correct as they are qualifying the power of the lens, +/- x dioptre. My R4 does not have built in adjustment either. Adjustment lenses are rare and expensive, but rather than spent $9395 I was fortunate and had cataract surgery by the NHS.
Much cheaper! I got the R5/6/7 as they have the diopter built in.
I'm no expert, but could part of the problem with monochrome cameras be that after stripping out the red, green and blue filters from the sensor, the resulting images are then viewed on a screen which comprises red, green and blue dots? I note from a comment below, that large prints are the medium to really notice a difference, and I am inclined to believe that. Perhaps I will be in a better position to comment when I get my hands on the Pentax K-3 III Monochrome, though that is APS-C, of course. I don't feel I can justify to myself spending over £7k on a monochrome camera as my first love is colour photography, but maybe I will, change my mind. After all, back in my prehistoric film days, I preferred B&W photography, but probably because I was able to develop and print the photos myself.
Thanks, yes I prefer B&W film (and really do t like Colour film flipped to BW but strangely for digital I dont mind it.
thats the reason why I will give away my M8 and the Epson RD-1. My old eyes are not made for the range finder patch anymore :D Q2M is fine and even the small Ricoh GXR with Leica mount is fine
Will a diopter help you ?
Your photography friend is a man after my own heart. A number of years ago I went to Walmart to buy a new toothbrush and came home with a new car. My family suggests that I have an intervention if I just mention that I may be going to a Leica store. I have a chrome M11 and a M10 Monochrom. I thoroughly enjoy the M10M but do agree with you when it comes to editing the color conversions to b/w. As always, I never miss one of your videos.
I have a M10M too...and love it. Do you use filters on your monochrome? I keep at least a yellow on mine lenses at pretty much all times....and on bright days, the orange and even red at times.
The monochrome is SO sensitive, I don't mind keeping heavy filters on them all the time...and it really opens up for great shots.
If not, give filters a try and see if it helps....
Have a great day,
CC
I generally use a yellow filter as well as exposure compensation or bracketing to prevent blowing out highlights. Sometimes it’s just nice or even necessary to have more editing tools at my disposal. That’s when the M11 b/w conversions come to the rescue. Best of both worlds.
Thanks William, love that and thanks about the videos. Currently moving house but I’ll get back on track soon.
Thank you so much for your information, as a finer art colour printer I agree with all your comments
Thanks Dennis!
Matt, a great review on both the M11 and M10M. I've been shooting Leica film cameras for many years, my first Leica digital was an M246 Monochrom which was a fantastic camera, but for the sensor issues! I traded it in for an M10R and to be honest I did miss the M246 at first, but the diversity of the colour digital sensor is just brilliant, and the monochrom jpegs straight from the camera are excellent, especially for web work and smaller prints. As much as I like the look and results of the M11M, if I do happen to seek out the M11, it will be the colour one, in black!
Thanks! I’ll likely update my M240 for a M10 model at some stage. This probably wasn’t a fair review of M bodies. I do love them for travel, just less for fast glass portraits
Very sensible opinions. Spot on. Thanks!
Thanks.. I must try to use the M11 again and next time use for street and travel. I've missed having a M body on my latest trip as the SL is a little too big for street/ travel.
Thanks for another interesting review, Matt. I am not sure i am interested in having that many megapixels, quite frankly, and i am not in a the market for new gear anyway, but it is always great to see what is coming out. Regarding the 'advantage' of shooting in colour and then converting, i have to respectfully disagree. The advantages of the monochrome sensors are quite apparent, once you start using one consistently; i have been shooting my (CCD) MM for years (plus a Sony RX1 that i had converted to monochrome), and i am still in love with the results....the secret is to use SIlver Efex for your processing - it should be mandatory for any monochrome camera, you get ALL the nuances you need and more.
Thanks, good tip for the software. I’m happy with B&W film but strangely I get better digital results from colour converted (** I view in B&W so they convert as I remember the scene with preset added)
Great video, lots of honest comments, thanks !
Thanks William!
I finally followed your advice on this and got the diopter, the LLL. Luckily I did not have to bear the expense of the M11. You were right in your many remarks about how helpful the diopter is. Thanks. PS, the RGB vs B&W post editing is spot on.
Thanks Zoltan! One of my Patreon had the LLL diopter at our London meet this weekend.
I live in the USA but went to the same store about 6 months ago…. Luckily only cost me a new 35mm Summilux! 😂 A question…. When I think 60MP I think how many pixels in x and y is that? Both the M11 and M11mono say 60MP, and about 9.5k x 6.3k pixels. But how does that work? The color sensor uses a Bayer RGBG format, so it takes 4 mono/filtered pixels to make a single colored pixel. So how do the two camera have the same x/y pixel count? Shouldn’t the mono be 4x the pixels since when the Bayer filter is removed now all 4 pixels are individual monochrome detectors. I don’t understand what’s going on? Any idea?
Thanks Mark, glad your visit was a little cheaper! :) I’m not a tech expert but as I understand both cameras quite the same MP but all Monochrom cameras have the equivalent of 4x more. (Someone that is smart that me will confirm I’m sure).
Mark, the answer is simple: Someone has misinformed you about how Bayer sensors work. They don't combine four filtered pixels into a single pixel. Each sensor pixel is recorded separately. A green-filtered pixel (for example) has its green value recorded directly, while its red and blue values are calculated from the readings from the adjacent red and blue pixels. This means that while each sensor pixel has values for all three colors, only one of those values is an actual measurement; the other two are estimates. This actually works better than you might think, because most of the eye's perception of detail and texture comes from the pixel's luminance (brightness) value, which IS measured separately for every pixel; it's only the chroma (color) value that is partly estimated. So the only real penalties of an RGB sensor vs. a monochrome sensor are that boundaries of different-colored areas can (sometimes) show color impurities, and the absorption of the filter costs about one stop of light. (Side point: people have tried other ways of deriving R, G and B values for each pixel, but mostly the only result has been to prove that Bryce Bayer was very, very smart.)
Really great! Very helpful 🎉
Thank you! Just my 2p worth
Interesting, Matt, but I'm sticking with my M2 and a roll of FP4 in my own 2Bath. Still happy with film. LOL
Thanks Ray! I prefer film too. I had my M4-P with me that day for the important photos :)
Will that help me to be a better photographer? I'd like a link to the images...
Regards from a Leica, Rolleiflex, Hasselblad & Nikon *mechanical* _film_ shooter.
Any camera that makes you go out and shoot more will make you better but you can do that with cheaper Leica too (As I do) Sorry I don't have a link to the photos. You'll find some shared full res on Flickr if you follow me there.
Dude, between John and David, you are set with kit!!
Ha yes, I meet some awesome people!
Hello Matt, I say good on the chap with his new M11. But a bit off topic I just find it funny that when I or some one choose a Hasselbled at £7400 ish I get so much heat or silly message but this chap buy a very good / great bit of kit in the M11 at £8300 ish and know one bats and eyelid. I say if the kit you buy give you pleaser and help you create work that you need or wont then great. Keep well, keep safe and love the work you do.
Thanks John! .. and yes if this video was shared in a general photography group it would go ripped to shreds too I think, fir the prices (especially). Leica folk know stuff is expensive and just accept it. Whether they buy is a different matter.
My only taste of the monochrome Leica`s is my 246. After shooting that I find it difficult to go back to the colour bodies . Apart from it being BW (obviously) the quality is simply stunning .I can only imagine what the M11 must be like.
Thanks, yes there is the M10M too. I still prefer colour sensors, view in B&W, and add my MrLeica B&W presets to the RAW files (so I only ever see B&W) for the best results with models.
First thing, my Wotancraft bag arrived… looks about perfect for my M11 Monochrom. But now the elephant in the room… one cannot judge the M11 Monochrom having never actually shot it. The mindset of how to take an image is completely different if you know from the onset that there will be no color data captured. You primarily think about different things. It’s no longer just a by chance… “hey this might look good in monochrome”. It is instead, a deliberate mission to seek out striking compositions, that invoke emotion by the thoughtful use of luminance.
Matt… give it a real try then give us an update.
Thanks. Yes I do shoot all cameras in B&W preview so I shoot for light/ texture/ shape etc. When I used Q2M vs Q I preferred the resulting Q files. M10M vs M240, the same BUT as you say I’ve never given them a chance. I’m sure I could make it work for me if I change my works flow. Congrats on your bag!
Waiting for the P version of the M11 hoping it would have the same internal memory as the monochrome.
Yes, nice idea! Probably without red dot too.
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom That and the script on the top plate. Now if they would bring back the brass plate and black paint they can take my money 😆.
I agree with you on the use of the color sensor to obtain BW images because you can simulate the effects of BW contrast filters even though the Mono sensor produces better detail. That being said, I still prefer HP5+ and Tri-X to digital BW files. For BW I stick with my M3, M6, F5 and F6.
Thanks Frank. Yes I still love film too!
I recently tried the M10 and REALLY enjoyed it. I was looking at the M11 because I want an M camera to get and keep for many years. The newer the camera, the longer lasting the electronics, etc will last in my opinion. It's things like this that are making me not want to go with an M camera and are making me consider the Sl2s bundles. Leica is still offering the huge $1300 discount and there's so many things I wouldn't have to deal with out of the M11...freezing issues, RF that needs alignment every once in a while, CLA and long times to get my camera back from Leica, etc. In your opinion, do you think the Sl2s with the new 50mm f2 asph is small enough to daily carry around in a sling, or is it too big a monster? Also, do the photos from the Sl2s still retain the "Leica look", or do they look oversharpened and more Panasonic than Leica
I love small setups but have grown to love the SL. It’s bigger but it’s so good I still prefer to carry it. With new Pany-Leica 50 f2 they are lighter so would make ok setup. I’d go with M glass if you want smaller and more character, like me (on SL series). ..if get bundle can keep kit lens for when don’t need as small. Optically very nice. 35mm goes super close too.
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom I ended up passing on the SL2s deal because it’s just a bit more in size than what I’d like to carry (I ride the motorcycle very often and take pictures at places I travel on it). Still thinking about the m11 and the 50mm Summicron f2…do you think this camera could last 8-10 years?
@@Deetroiter yes my M240 is 2012 I think
very good
Thank you!
For many years , I have used my SONY cameras and vintage lenses to great effect ,, sadly have not shot pretty girls , I am humble .... no Doctor here ... In spite of my limitations , or maybe through my limitations , I have used the Sky the Nature , and dynamacism to reach great heights of expression , and have eaten great detail , in the process, I have always converted color to BW files in Post .... I have not used LR or PS enough ... I need a bigger screen for these eyes .... still , using the Nature and skies and what I live in , and about ... understanding converting files ..... been doing that for years. One thought a difference ...
Film is Photography , it is imperfect and difficult , my M3 ( 1958 ) and the coming .. M A Leica , and the venerable Nikon F3 are teaching me , patience and confidence , you must trust yourself .... this is difficult.
Digital is " imaging " Film is " Photography " , there is a vast difference in process and the latitudes , in each. I think Film requires more confidence , and faith in one's skills , whilst Digital .... well a child can do that.
Thanks Chris.. we think alike.. I wanted to be back to basics so I use a 1931 Leica Standard.. I then zone focus only and estimate the light / metering.. it doesn't get more pure than that. Love it.
I used our Leica M11 M for a week now. Iit is our first Leica camera. We also use Canon cameras like R5 and 1DX. The main reason I was interested in Leica is image quality, black and white sensor, high quality and light lenses and that the camera is so small and light. One thing Im a little bit unhappy is that when you zoom in in the viewfinder to get focus then the frame rate is really slow so it is a bit hard to focus. Otherwise great in every way.
Nice! Yes Leica M bodies are normally at their best using the optical VF/RF not EVF. Newer EVF are better than older models.
Best professional photography ad at 2:51.
Haha that wasn’t planned either!
I am not in a position to afford the M11 or Mono. Nor any new Leica. Nor would I. I am no longer a pro. Even when I was my Leica M3/M2/M6TTL were for reportage, some weddings. It was SLR! Digital opened a new world! I could litterally expose till I dropped. That's not good. I hate, HATE editing. The higher megapixels are a bind. A few years ago, my Nikon D50 was 6mp! It was sufficient for the size prints I make. Canon Eos5 was only 2mp more! I have never been envious of newer equipment. Some new features are a myth. The mis-focus-auto-focus. I prefer direct focus with a good viewfinder made for human eyes, not the auto-gizmo. When I was exausted after hours of shooting, wedding, The Rangefinder simply the best! Purchasing faster PC etc. not in my thoughts! I always knew the Hasselbald with Zeiss lenses was way ahead of my 35mm! When I went to Medium Format, It was Mamiya C seriesTLR and lenses. Because the film runs straight in MamiyaC and pentax 6x7, the Zeiss lenses were NOT that much better! Color on film, I was prisoner to my Pro Lab! Applause to the man who loaned you his New Leica! Bravo! Great images from all your cameras! I have a dedicated Digital, only for BW. It's CCD. It simply is perfect.Your site one of the best!
Thanks Jason and I’m with you, I like simple cameras and especially film
I love the rangefinder. But as far as the M11, not for me. The M10R is the best balance of enough resolution and reliability for me.
Yes the 10R gives a nice middle ground for more resolution.
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom I agree though. If you’re not a rangefinder lover or your eyesight is failing then maybe it’s time to let go of Leica or go SL. A lot of guys in the Leica forums complaining they can’t see anything but the SL is too big. I want to say to them to just let it go and use any of the wonderful mirrorless cameras available. But I’m banned from there so 😅
You could set the M11 to give you 36MP; on the rare occasion the 60MP might come handy 😉
@@PSYCHIC_PSYCHO i will never buy an M11. My M10R gives me more than i can handle as it is.
I'd love an M11 Monochrom. My Leica 90mm f/2.2 Thambar-M would be a perfect match for it.
Hey Jesse! That would give you a very arty setup!
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom Hello! My four week summer vacation just started today. Loading camera batteries and watching RUclips.
I'm a fan of the old B&W movies like Dracula (with Bela Lugosi), Mummy, The Invisible Man etc. It would be fun to create my own movie posters for them. With the M11M + Thambar-M and other lenses.
Thanks for the video Matt! I gotta disagree with you about the Monochrom cameras haha, you just need to learn how to edit a monochrom image, as it's much different than RGB. Always love watching your take!
Thanks Frank! Yes I must admit i'm in my comfort zone with my RGB-Mono presets but I shoot B&W film so I could make the M bodies work with practise
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom for sure! Nothing like bnw film, but the Monochrom cameras are as close as it gets for me at least! Thanks again for the great video!
You forgot the most important point. The SL series has built in diopters, so you won't have to go to the store to buy an extra SL2/2s!
Thanks Thomas, yes! I totally overlooked that now I’m used to it. SL is awesome. The end :)
It is kind of strange, I had two M9s and M 240, it was ok then, I could buy M11 tomorrow, but I just do not want it. SL (now sold) and presently SL2S with SL lenses and via Leica adapter Leica M lenses is for me lot more pleasurable to use then any M could do.
Yes I was exactly the same (earlier M models). I keep one but it’s not for portraits.
I have an SL2 and love it. My M11 feels more portable and less obtrusive on the street though.
I know they were up for only a second, but I thought the M11 shots had the edge. Humble apologies Matt!
Great, thanks Rob, I hope they did too (zoomed it they will have for sure)
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom Just this minute got back from Reddot. Now the proud owner of a Voigtlander Nokton 50/F1. Managed a good trade in deal. Walked back past the Barbican, brought back memories. . .
@@flashback9966 congrats! Great lens. Hopefully see you at a future group event. It’s difficult to find everyone free on the same day it seems (so far)
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom Fine Matt, keep me posted. I can understand how that Reddot shop is such a dangerous place to be. . .
Now that's one pricey diopter ! lol 🤣 However, being a Leica fan I get it which is why I stay away from Leica Stores. If you hold one you're probably gonna want it !
Haha very true!
What's the Ins name of the model? She is very cute.
Phoebe, yes I try to pick nice ones!
Nice to have that kind of money. A monochrome sensor does not show its strength unless you shoot in very low light at very high isos. Here the lack of noise, high dynamic range and the extra resolution of the monochrome sensor will reign supreme, and the Bayer Matrix sensors do not even come close, otherwise save your money.
Yes agreed about low light. With fast glass I’ll never need such high ISO.
When you spend 9k on a camera... Then yes add 1300$ for a Mac (which does the job fine). 👍🏼
A very fair point! I’m not likely to buy a 8k camera so I’ll stick with my old pc a bit longer.
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom 😁👍🏼 And a good calibrated screen. Remember your pc is your digital dark room. New noise cancellation AI in LR is amazing. Pixel enhancing software is really becoming magical. So one lens less for a good post proces with the right software really contributes to a better end result 🤓
Using the sony A7 RvV with Voightlander lenses. Poor eye sight buyout the EVF is exceptional- Basically a Q3 same sensor.
Thanks Frank, good info thanks. (Yes I hear that EVF is very good)
Hope he claimed the VAT back 😬
Haha :)
I definitely probably maybe almost certainly perhaps NEED one of these. Fortunately, (for my health as my girlfriend would get seriously evil on my ass) I don't have any money so I cant get one. Phew- crisis averted.
Haha nice Marc
Replace your girlfriend with a M11 Monochrome; considering that all human relationships are short-lived; whereas love for one’s creative hobbies will outlast any human relationship.
Seems like a bargain!😊
Haha, I know!
I’ve pretty much lost any interest in acquiring more Leica gear. Recently got interested in amateur radio and the value/utility equation for me is pretty stunning. Panasonic tech with a red dot 🔴 stuck on the front gets old after awhile.
Thanks Bred, I’m lucky I don’t suffer from Leica camera GAS but some lenses sometimes get me!
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom I’m probably going to keep my M6 and a core set of lenses 21/24/28/35/50/75/90 but I will sell some of my Leica lenses and replace them with Voigtlander that is really kicking it on IQ/value lately. My Noctilux alone could almost completely kit out my new Ham shack with top quality Yaesu and ICom gear.
@@bradl2636 Now you see why I replaced a few less used Leica with Voigtlander!
I hope you charge enough money for your workshops, Matt. Your customers seem to have the kind of money that justifies hefty workshop fees. :P
It’s all detailed on MrLeica.com - It’ll be cheap for some but expensive for others I think (but I teach private 1:1 so hopefully good value for this).
From Palm Springs 'eh? Yes, he can afford it.
I live there too, moved from L.A., it is actually more affordable to live here. Still happy with my "old" MM, i am in no rush to go and buy the M11M 🙂
Great!
I think if anyone works a high pressure very long hour job for many years they deserve to treat themselves to multiple Leicas 👍🏻
To call his wife for allowance😂 really? 😂😂
I’m guessing you aren’t married.
I think any good husband does this even if the price they quote it’s exactly accurate 😂
@@jcbarker1 I think more it's a cultural thing. My money - my decision. And yes, getting married is a big mistake nowadays
Matt : You got me to seriously go into Film Leica M bodies , in tiny bites , but now .. .You have discovered the " great Cheat " ... I have used for a long long time, to walk across " Time Stamps " , you see .... I do not just shoot humans although I love to , I shoot TIME and shooting time , well this required another complete discipline ... to capture Time.
I wonder revealing a secret .... how many understand ? It is not what you spend , it is not the label ... it is .. .the EYE , and to shoot time ... yes. Acquired " bent " .
Thanks Chris, agree, it's time out practicing the art that is the fun bit. I was walking the streets today for 6 hours taking photos. Not a single model!
I just paid 3300.00 for a Lecia M-A and I am glad for that .... forget 9K ..... .Uber Rich ..
Nice, you know i'm a film guy at heart even if I review digital too