There's an old joke that if you ask an engineer to design you a dampener, he'll stop by your desk with a wet sponge. A dampener dampens (makes wet), and damper damps (controls motion).
@@OVERDRIVE.studios as so many other awesome technologies that make cars too fast to drive. And too expensive, probably. I'm so curious to see what modern cars are capable of with lack of regulations and some awesome engineers unleashed!
If you think about it, 13 times a second is not that much. At 100km/h, that is one adjustment every 2.2 meters. It definitely won't make potholes feel buttery smooth at high speeds, but it's still of course more than enough to be extremely useful for countering weight shifting and smoothing out speed bumps at city speeds. Also, I think that the car doesn't 'calculate' the damping 13 times a second, rather much faster, but the hardware is the limiting factor
@@nickk707 Rolls Royce has a very similar system, and that one is made purely to make potholes feel as smooth as possible, so unless someone confirms that this system is better, we can't know
Yeah I was wondering about this. Another point - wouldn't it make sense for the front dampers to pass information on to the rear dampers. Or does this happen already?
@@tewrgh good question... After thinking about it a little, I came to the conclusion that ot wouldn't help. First, on smooth asphalt (like in racing) there would be no information to transmit, as all important data comes from the accelerometers, or maybe the GPS if they have a system that can identify upcoming turns. In the case of potholes though, yes, it might be able to help smooth the back end of the car. BUT it would be hard to read data from the suspension directly and... it might just be useless, because when you hit a pothole with no smoothing at the front, the car will shake anyways, won't really matter if the back is smoothed. So, for an at most minor improvement, it wouldn't be worth it to bother with putting sensors in the suspension.
bascially a more modern version of the BOSE system from many years ago. that system enabled the car to be able to bunny hop over obstacles in the road at speed but was very heavy and never ended up being used in a production car
Sounds more like advanced version of Citroen's hydropneumatic suspension. Citroen reached more comfortable ride by redirecting fluid between dampers, as they didn't have pump powerful enough to adjust dampers individually the way Porsche does.
I’d be surprised if they aren’t uploading a map of the track to the suspension computer for these record attempts, like the 1992 Williams F1 car. This would allow the car to switch set ups for each corner, straight, and acceleration (deceleration) event, rather than simply reacting.
If they aren't doing it already, they might be soon! Porsche has partnered with a company called ClearMotion who develops software that can adjust suspension based on crowd-sourced location data about road conditions. ClearMotion also bought the active suspension technology originally developed by Bose, which was revolutionary.
@@OVERDRIVE.studios interesting. Yes, I remember seeing test footage of the Bose system. It could lift the wheels going over speed bumps at speed, so the chassis barely moved at all.
The Williams F1 was running on a C64 processor. We have much faster processors now. You can just have a sensors on the front of the car, calculate the surface bumpiness and inertia in real-time and adjust as necessary. That way it will work anywhere any time. Ferrari for example doesn't even use hydraulics for this anymore. Their active suspension is just a bunch of gears driven by a 48V electric motor rotating a screw that extends or lowers a shaft to control the suspension. There's 2 very small spool valves with hydraulic fluid in them (these are the actual dampers), but these are only for smoothing the micro-vibrations. Like with the Porsche, the springs are soft and just support the car's weight, so that the suspension motors don't have to waste energy on that.
Been driving a Citroen with "Active Ride suspension" or more accurately, hydropneumatic suspension for 11 years now, good to see other makers catch on, It's the best suspension. Edit: I know Citroen has the patents, which is the reason not many makers have licensed the tech, apart from a few exceptions.
The specific quoted voltage doesn't matter as much as the total system wattage. As long as your system can support the amperage, you can technically run it on 1 volt. My point is, I don't think Porsche needs the full 400v EV system to run this, they may be able to do it on a mild hybrid 48-96v system that can run in place of the starter and alternator (AKA, it'd be a starter/generator) on the 911. This is especially true if the system was dedicated to only powering the active ride control.
Citroën be like : You know about the Xantia Activa, right ? Riiiiiight ? And my concern is the same than it was with the Citroën : reliability ! It's all fun to do a single Nürb lap, when will we see it on the 24H of Le Mans Porsche ?
Great question, and I don't know the answer! Since garage 56 is hand-picked each year, I suppose they can choose whatever car they want, with whatever technology. I believe the only technical regulations are for safety.
Glad you liked the video! Driver 61 is motorsports, Overdrive is road cars. Obviously that'll overlap from time to time since lots of core concepts apply to either, but many viewers aren't interested in both.
Changing the way " physics " work is something phenomenal from an engineering side but will destroy the feeling of driving. It will be very comfortable and fast in a " fake " way. It's a double edge sword from my point of view, but an excellent work from the Porsche team for sure
Road & Track published a review by Jethro Bovingdon today where he said exactly this about the Panamera with Active Ride. He says skip it because it doesn't "feel right."
I imagine a car with those suspensions, active cambering like the Lamborghini, 4 wheel drive and 4 wheel steering... It should beat any Nurburgring laptime in reverse.
Really good question. VW Group makes strange decisions about which brands share technology. VW shares with Audi, Audi shares with Lamborghini, but VW doesn't share with Lamborghini (to the best of my knowledge, anyway). So who knows if it'll happen for Porsche and Lamborghini?
@@OVERDRIVE.studios I do believe it's a matter of societary status. VW and Audi are basically the same factory with the same products. Of course Audi is Audi and has a much more premium line up and clientele. Downscaling the wide variety of models we can say the same for Skoda and Seat. While Porsche and Lamborghini are strange animals with a very specific customer's target. They want and need to remain "independent" and do their thing, otherwise the risk of losing the core enthusiasts is high. Yes, they share surely some parts, in some cases big ones (Cayenne 3.2 V6) but the target are different. Maybe Lamborghini is trying to enter into the more sporty realm of Porsche to be back in business against Ferrari. Or maybe , as said above, the two brands simply maintain more independence from the group than expected.
@@stupidocanerosa just Imagine: a VW Group hypercar with all the best tech from Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bugatti, and now Rimac. The thing would eat Koenigseggs for breakfast.
@@beanapprentice1687 A W16 Bugatti with Rimac hybrid system, Audi Quattro traction, Porsche suspensions and brakes and Lambo styling and active cambering.
I've driven a old Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptor as a surplus local government work vehicle. Everything shown during the old vs new section at 8:04 is legit. It can go really fast when pushed. However over rough roads you feel everything.
I've been waiting for this tech to go on something in production for years, since seen that american video from 90-s with electric actuators instead of spring and damper. Finally we're here!..
It's no secret that Xantia Activa punched way above its power to weight thanks to its active suspension. Glad to finally see a modern take, even if it's hideously expensive and complex. Neither of which applied to what Citroen achieved in 90s.
4:19 Spring rates don't change study state load transfer. Firmer springs make the weight transfer faster. All the system does is tweak the transient response of weight transfer. Clearly it's very effective, but it does not change the total weight transfer.
I rode in a Panamera 4S a few weeks ago and the ride was not what I was expecting. I was expecting something like my 2020 300S but it was butter smooth and sharp in corners. This new suspension must be amazing.
That 77ms response time seems a bit slow to me. At 100km/h that's more than 2 meters of travel. Compared that to cheap hobby drones are running an 8khz control loop, and are able to adjust motor speeds 1200 times a second. I think there is still much left at the table, and we will see great wonders coming.
That's exactly what I wondered there's a comment comparing this to predictive suspension and I was wondering there if maybe the distance travelled seems more in my head than it actually is but 2m is a LOT and that's just at legal speeds! On a track it'll be an entire section of the corner behind! Also idk if you can feel 13x/sec but 77ms is definitely tangible eye blink is 25ms & 10ms is still detectible
@@beanapprentice1687 YEP, THIS!! That is why MRC is so quick, there is nothing mechanical about its operation, it's all magnetic and electrical charges
@@z06van21 what? Magnaride reacts to mechanical feedback too, lol. Its not the spring rate update speed thats the issue here. And anyways, MRC has a more limited range of updates, which makes it a little useless for ride quality applications, and its heavier. There's a reason it hasnt got much traction compared with hydraulic systems, outside of the few muscle cars and "super" cars like the mustangs and vettes. Those are cars designed to be budget friendly and so they can afford 10% more mass or a harsher ride or a more disconected feel to the road. A Vette can be as fast as a Porsche, or even faster, but it will never be that and ride as well or feel as connected as the Porsche.
Very clever, but in answer to your question, it depends whether you want enjoyment or pace. I’ve recently bought the slowest car I’ve ever owned by a long way, an MX5 mk2.5, and have modified it for ride, handling and feedback and left the puny engine alone. It’s great! For the first time ever, the fastest car I own is my long distance cruiser, and it really doesn’t matter to me. So whilst I’d be fascinated to see a bonkers hybrid 911 with active ride, I’d personally be happier in a 996 GT3, or even a modded 964 C2. I just like driving, and the less weight the better, and usually the fewer gizmos the better too. For me driving enjoyment is a Caterham, a Formula Ford, or something like that, not a mad computerised hypercar.
The Citroën Xantia Activa (1990-ties) managed to do all this, reliably and with excellent ride quality and handling at 12V. (granted: it wasn't electric but hydropneumatic)
active suspension FINALLY realizing it's potential. for the naysayers who argue its too heavy, too complicated, too expensive, and uses too much power. think a second about allthe tech improvements that happened since electronics have taken over cars. electronic ignition, injection,ABS, traction/stability control. each add some weight, complexity, and electric consumption, but the benefits far outweigh the downsides. Injection requires fuel pumps, wven steonger with direct injection, but the ability to control AF ratio precisely means more power, torque, better efficiency, less emissions, better reliability. plus it adapts to altitude, temperature, rpms, throttle. same for variable valve timing/lift engine breathes better in wvery condition. True active suspension (not adaptive damping) is the natural evolution that will make cars way more comfortable at all speeds and on every road surface, but also corner perfectly flat with no need for overly harsh suspension or even antiroll bars which reduce the wuality of the suspension, and will hugely increase grip on roads that are not perfectly smooth. it doeant make sense that every luxury limo or hypercar doesn't have it already. Porsche, Ferrari have finally jumped in but chinese manifacturer Nio has understood the potential and ordered 3 MILLION active suspensions. also, power consumption will be offset in large part with less energy lost defirming tires, amd sending vibrations throufh the all chassis. if you think about how faster a bike, skateboard, etc rolls over a veey smooth pavement vs cobblestones, speed bumps, gravel, etc these systems wont use a lot of power on a smooth road, and when they do work a lot, using power, they will also make the cars roll better. weight
@1:55 Sorry bud you're completely wrong, VAG design philosophy is the other way around they start at the top and then the lesser vehicles are stripped down versions from that. So you can't say it is isn't a supercar because it wasn't built in such a fashion from the ground up. Which is kind of a weird thing to say considering there isn't a 'base version' of the new taycan available yet.
The active suspension is driven by hydraulics and sounds like the hydraulic pump is driven off a 400V electricity. So it can be fitted to a combustion car with an auxiliary pump.
A belt driven pump might not be able to produce enough pressure in the system to create 77ms changes in suspension characteristics. Another way is with a secondary high-voltage alternator. Bose did this with their experimental active suspension. The downside was that the alternator was heavy and consumed 5-6 hp.
Honestly, a 5-6hp loss is worth it for being able to have active suspension, especially on higher horsepower cars. You're trading some straightline speed for much improved cornering speed.
Active ride in the Turbo will be incredible in every condition, making the car more comfortable for GT use and approaching GT3 RS performance on the track!
I test drove the new Panamera with this system. It is very cool, but for ride comfort on bad roads it is super overrated. Just choosing the cheaper smaller rims (higher tire sidewalls) will give you a much better improvement in ride quality. There are only very specific frequencies at which this suspension helps ride quality (as seen in their marketing videos).
I'm surprised they use a lot of energy since they should be able to absorb a lot of energy to feed back to the battery. Bigger concern for me though is cost/maintenance/reliability. I am scared to see the price of a replacement damper.
There's no reason an electromagnetic system couldn't charge the battery using energy harvested from the suspension on rough roads. It's just waste heat in the dampers otherwise - to get an idea how much, they change dampers between stages on rallys when they can, because they heat up enough that the damper oil viscosity can drift out of the design range. They can be too hot to hold with bare hands.
Spring rates won’t meaningfully affect the amount of weight transfer which is almost entirely a function of cg height and wheelbase / track. Active suspension will affect the rate of weight transfer and will dramatically reduce the momentum effects of the body sloshing around under change of direction.
Mercedes was doing this with the C215 (CL Coupé) 25 years ago, if you've ever lobbed one of those two tonne monsters down a road its surprising how well they drive for such a huge vehicle.
3:46 I think you made a units error. No spec of HMMWV weighs 4900 lbs. The base spec is 7500 lbs BUT the armored HMMVW that you showed weighs over 10,000 lbs.
and now imagine that at some point, porsche will switch to a dual motor system instead of their single motor that they have now in the back. two independent wheels with independent slip control. that optimizes the acceleration power even further. they are working on it for years now but the problem currently is also the power limitation of the battery. if you slam in two motors in the back but the power limiting factor is the battery, then the gain is not that much. and then there is the problem with weight. in the next version, which probably comes in three to four years, i suspect the battery having 5% more energy but 5% less weight. and now, that the new taycan already has a good range, they will go for a mix of more range and less weight instead of only going for range with the same weight.
I thought for a long while that was what the "active suspension" from F1 years ago was, I was disappointed that it was just ride height. Also, 13 samples per second seems slow, but I guess that is smoothed by the low spring rate.
I think that they will utilize this suspension system in the next generation of 911 (993?). I predict that they will have a significantly bigger battery pack and use a 800 volts system instead of the 400 volts system in the 992.2 GTS.
It would be really interesting to compare and contrast the Mclaren suspension system vs. Porsches. And why Mclaren seems to be able to do active using a 12v system where as Porsche has decided to only apply it to their higher voltage system. And with the 911 GTS now announced.... does it have enough voltage to make this a reality?
Porsche 911 doesn't need the active ride out of 2 reasons: 1st: the 911 doesn't have to carry the same weight as an EV, 2nd: the 911 beats the Rimac Nevera and the McLaren Senna at the Nürburgring as a unmodified sports car. Let's see what the 911 will be able to do
"Damper" is historically correct. However, "dampener" is so widely misused by now that it is well on its way to being a legitimate alternative. This is how languages evolve. The same is true for "caster" vs. "castor."
I am really impressed how Porsches managed to sell a hybrid 911 as a upgrade to customers, which are notoriously disliking electrification in cars. I think the taycan is a glimpse, how hard the new 911 will demolish anything on track
That's a really interesting question. We didn't cover this, but the system is programmed to take advantage of normal camber changes that occur as the suspension compresses or extends, to maximize contact patch. That would also help keep temperature and wear more even, potentially reducing degradation.
I wonder if the Taycan can go between Nurburgring track record suspension settings to NIO glass balancing (without spillage) on a bumpy test track, all with just software and changes in modes.....would be cool if it did.
Didn't have time to cover that in this video, but there are two big differences. The Audi uses air springs to adjust the suspension and it scans the road ahead to adjust predictively. Porsche determined that because their system can react within 77ms, partly because it doesn't rely on adjusting air springs, it wasn't worth the added complexity to scan and predict.
@@OVERDRIVE.studios Thanks so much for the info. AFAIK Audi predictive suspension uses motors along each air suspension with 48v, it can tilt and keep level in corners and acceleration. It would be interesting to see the main differences and design decisions as both fro VW groupe. Thanks again for your content, keep it up!
@@OVERDRIVE.studiosGlad this came up - it's proven itself but still 77ms seems slow? It's 3 times slower than the blink of an eye. At speed that's significant ground covered. I don't get how it can adjust dampers quick enough compared with if it could scan ahead? Or maybe I'm picturing the ground covered in that time as more than it actually will and in that timeframe it'll still capture the bump or dip in the road?
Porsche is on fire as of late, new Taycan and Macan EVs are practically at Tesla level of power an efficiency. They leapfroged everyone and are actually making meaningfull innovations in the car industry.
Great video and information! Although you are very much wrong about the weight of a Humvee. The lightest version of the HMMWV or Humvee is 5,900 pounds. That's 1,000 more than this Taycan.
@@OVERDRIVE.studiosWhy show a picture of an up-armored HMMWV and not an M998, though? The armor makes them much, much heavier, to the point of ruining the comparison.
It will make the 911 almost as good as the Boxster "S". Active ride Suspension, Independent individual wheel Steering by wire. Braking by wire with Wheel Hub Motors with Regen Braking. Then we are almost all the same 4 combined units one at each corner! Making sure that wheels remain absolutely vertical no matter how far they are turned! Maximum road/ track contact area all of the time!
@@darthnatas953 That's by choice! Theirs because that what they choose to fit! Don't forget that the Boxster saved Porsche from bankruptcy! the 911 is the ultimate development of the VW BUG! Axle, Transmission, Engine, hanging out the back end! The complete reverse of F1 & Indy cars! The theory is central mass low centre of gravity.
Mitsubishi were ridiculously ahead of their time in the 1990s, sadly the past 2 decades haven't gone well for them. I had the pleasure of driving one of the MIVEC cars a few years back, and, unlike a lot of the VTEC Hondas, they chose gearbox ratios that allowed you to keep it in high revving MIVEC mode all the time, while the Hondas would drop off VTEC and bog down after each gear shift, even shifting at the red line.
This suspension is an outsourced part shared with China’s Nio. They are both supplied by the same company called ClearMotion. That company also bought the Bose suspension patent. Lots of false information out there saying Porsche designed this. They did not.
EV advocates: "Battery-powered cars are the natural alternative to petrol cars at increasing circuit performance, without trying too hard." Also EV advocates: installing a 400V suspension system strong enough to make a military Humvee jump like it saw a ghost. And will be faster than petrol, "next year," as always. 😅
Nope! The Evija X is a heavily modified track-only version. If they'd done a lap in the road-going Evija, that would be different, and they should! It's 1,000 lbs. lighter than the Rimac!
Customers are not looking favourably on the Taycan range. Most of the last model buyers are finding nobody wants them. Not even companies akin to "We Buy Any Piece of Junk" do not want them at any price.
It doesn't matter how cheap a car is to buy when one component costs more than the entire car when it fails. This is why the only good value second hand electric car is one that costs very little but has the good fortune of being reliable. Sadly batteries are not built to be serviced, so it's an all or nothing replacement, and it's not like second hand batteries are promising to be any better, so nobody in the second hand market is going to buy unless they can afford to take a near complete loss on scrapping it as soon as anything goes wrong with the battery.
The car will feel unnatural, it is not only about performance! The most important things at a sport car are feeling, pleasure, the natural balance, fun, be reliable, and to feel involved. With electric steering and electric braking already it start a downfall. To have a mechanical and simple car is way more interesting.
Imagine (Porsche) cars would scan the road and predict your behaviour (which line you will drive etc.) and use that data to update ARS even more often. Wold this even be an improvement? I don't know, but mabye...
![Coheed and Cambria - Searching for Tomorrow [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/hDsYGLbmadg/mqdefault.jpg)
There's an old joke that if you ask an engineer to design you a dampener, he'll stop by your desk with a wet sponge. A dampener dampens (makes wet), and damper damps (controls motion).
You're dam(p) right about that.
The confusion comes with the verb as the dampening is both attenuating and moistening.
"Dampening makes you wet, Damping makes you fast."
-A T-Shirt I own.
@@yolo_burrito In Suspension, the verb 'damping' is still more accurate. As it refers specifically to an oscillation.
@@ohshnit1 I need it haha
"Dampers don't usually choose violence." 🤣
nah, they're more likely to keep things calm 😂😂
I feel like this is going to change racing/suspension technology forever.. its so incredibly smart.
Agree, but unfortunately active suspension is banned by many race series!
@@OVERDRIVE.studios as so many other awesome technologies that make cars too fast to drive. And too expensive, probably. I'm so curious to see what modern cars are capable of with lack of regulations and some awesome engineers unleashed!
@OVERDRIVE.studios
Renault Williams had active suspension in 92 ish... Got banned.
in the 90’s williams f1 had this until it got banned
F1 had it in, I believe, the 1990s, then it was banned.
If you think about it, 13 times a second is not that much. At 100km/h, that is one adjustment every 2.2 meters. It definitely won't make potholes feel buttery smooth at high speeds, but it's still of course more than enough to be extremely useful for countering weight shifting and smoothing out speed bumps at city speeds. Also, I think that the car doesn't 'calculate' the damping 13 times a second, rather much faster, but the hardware is the limiting factor
It will make potholes as smooth as can be compared to every other car ever made
@@nickk707 Rolls Royce has a very similar system, and that one is made purely to make potholes feel as smooth as possible, so unless someone confirms that this system is better, we can't know
@@alexreitler rolls have an air spring system that is very good but this in a step above
Yeah I was wondering about this. Another point - wouldn't it make sense for the front dampers to pass information on to the rear dampers. Or does this happen already?
@@tewrgh good question... After thinking about it a little, I came to the conclusion that ot wouldn't help. First, on smooth asphalt (like in racing) there would be no information to transmit, as all important data comes from the accelerometers, or maybe the GPS if they have a system that can identify upcoming turns. In the case of potholes though, yes, it might be able to help smooth the back end of the car. BUT it would be hard to read data from the suspension directly and... it might just be useless, because when you hit a pothole with no smoothing at the front, the car will shake anyways, won't really matter if the back is smoothed. So, for an at most minor improvement, it wouldn't be worth it to bother with putting sensors in the suspension.
The hybrid 911 is inevitable, bring it on.
Yup! Porsche is revealing it on May 28.
bascially a more modern version of the BOSE system from many years ago. that system enabled the car to be able to bunny hop over obstacles in the road at speed but was very heavy and never ended up being used in a production car
it is in nio et9 around 2025
Yeah, recalled that thing as well. FINALLY it is in a production car, albeit I believe that one was full electric actuator, this one hydraulic.
not even close, completely different systems and goals.
Well the end product of the spring is about the same but the bose system used electromagnets an tons of electronics which makes it much heavier
Sounds more like advanced version of Citroen's hydropneumatic suspension. Citroen reached more comfortable ride by redirecting fluid between dampers, as they didn't have pump powerful enough to adjust dampers individually the way Porsche does.
I’d be surprised if they aren’t uploading a map of the track to the suspension computer for these record attempts, like the 1992 Williams F1 car. This would allow the car to switch set ups for each corner, straight, and acceleration (deceleration) event, rather than simply reacting.
If they aren't doing it already, they might be soon! Porsche has partnered with a company called ClearMotion who develops software that can adjust suspension based on crowd-sourced location data about road conditions. ClearMotion also bought the active suspension technology originally developed by Bose, which was revolutionary.
@@OVERDRIVE.studios interesting. Yes, I remember seeing test footage of the Bose system. It could lift the wheels going over speed bumps at speed, so the chassis barely moved at all.
The Williams F1 was running on a C64 processor. We have much faster processors now. You can just have a sensors on the front of the car, calculate the surface bumpiness and inertia in real-time and adjust as necessary. That way it will work anywhere any time.
Ferrari for example doesn't even use hydraulics for this anymore. Their active suspension is just a bunch of gears driven by a 48V electric motor rotating a screw that extends or lowers a shaft to control the suspension. There's 2 very small spool valves with hydraulic fluid in them (these are the actual dampers), but these are only for smoothing the micro-vibrations. Like with the Porsche, the springs are soft and just support the car's weight, so that the suspension motors don't have to waste energy on that.
“Porsche’s adult rhino” 😂
The meme was really funny
Been driving a Citroen with "Active Ride suspension" or more accurately, hydropneumatic suspension for 11 years now, good to see other makers catch on,
It's the best suspension.
Edit: I know Citroen has the patents, which is the reason not many makers have licensed the tech, apart from a few exceptions.
I'm adapting such a system for my project car. Should be interesting results!
The specific quoted voltage doesn't matter as much as the total system wattage. As long as your system can support the amperage, you can technically run it on 1 volt. My point is, I don't think Porsche needs the full 400v EV system to run this, they may be able to do it on a mild hybrid 48-96v system that can run in place of the starter and alternator (AKA, it'd be a starter/generator) on the 911. This is especially true if the system was dedicated to only powering the active ride control.
Citroën be like : You know about the Xantia Activa, right ? Riiiiiight ?
And my concern is the same than it was with the Citroën : reliability ! It's all fun to do a single Nürb lap, when will we see it on the 24H of Le Mans Porsche ?
Unfortunately, Le Mans regulations don't allow active suspension!
@@OVERDRIVE.studios Even in box 56 ?
Great question, and I don't know the answer! Since garage 56 is hand-picked each year, I suppose they can choose whatever car they want, with whatever technology. I believe the only technical regulations are for safety.
@@OVERDRIVE.studios Ok, thank you so much !
Hahaha hahaha hahaha your first mistake is comparing Citroen to Porsche.
Cool video and tech actually but feels like a Driver 61 video and not Overdrive
Glad you liked the video! Driver 61 is motorsports, Overdrive is road cars. Obviously that'll overlap from time to time since lots of core concepts apply to either, but many viewers aren't interested in both.
@@OVERDRIVE.studios fair enough. Never thought of the two channels being essentially road cars vs motorsport. Makes sense though.
Changing the way " physics " work is something phenomenal from an engineering side but will destroy the feeling of driving.
It will be very comfortable and fast in a " fake " way.
It's a double edge sword from my point of view, but an excellent work from the Porsche team for sure
Road & Track published a review by Jethro Bovingdon today where he said exactly this about the Panamera with Active Ride. He says skip it because it doesn't "feel right."
Definitely, drivers should get used to all new things the car is providing. And they would.
I imagine a car with those suspensions, active cambering like the Lamborghini, 4 wheel drive and 4 wheel steering...
It should beat any Nurburgring laptime in reverse.
Though exactly the same! When will Porsche and Lamborghini combine their tech?
Really good question. VW Group makes strange decisions about which brands share technology. VW shares with Audi, Audi shares with Lamborghini, but VW doesn't share with Lamborghini (to the best of my knowledge, anyway). So who knows if it'll happen for Porsche and Lamborghini?
@@OVERDRIVE.studios I do believe it's a matter of societary status. VW and Audi are basically the same factory with the same products. Of course Audi is Audi and has a much more premium line up and clientele. Downscaling the wide variety of models we can say the same for Skoda and Seat.
While Porsche and Lamborghini are strange animals with a very specific customer's target. They want and need to remain "independent" and do their thing, otherwise the risk of losing the core enthusiasts is high.
Yes, they share surely some parts, in some cases big ones (Cayenne 3.2 V6) but the target are different. Maybe Lamborghini is trying to enter into the more sporty realm of Porsche to be back in business against Ferrari.
Or maybe , as said above, the two brands simply maintain more independence from the group than expected.
@@stupidocanerosa just Imagine: a VW Group hypercar with all the best tech from Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bugatti, and now Rimac. The thing would eat Koenigseggs for breakfast.
@@beanapprentice1687 A W16 Bugatti with Rimac hybrid system, Audi Quattro traction, Porsche suspensions and brakes and Lambo styling and active cambering.
I've driven a old Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptor as a surplus local government work vehicle. Everything shown during the old vs new section at 8:04 is legit. It can go really fast when pushed. However over rough roads you feel everything.
I've been waiting for this tech to go on something in production for years, since seen that american video from 90-s with electric actuators instead of spring and damper. Finally we're here!..
It's no secret that Xantia Activa punched way above its power to weight thanks to its active suspension. Glad to finally see a modern take, even if it's hideously expensive and complex. Neither of which applied to what Citroen achieved in 90s.
4:19 Spring rates don't change study state load transfer. Firmer springs make the weight transfer faster.
All the system does is tweak the transient response of weight transfer. Clearly it's very effective, but it does not change the total weight transfer.
I rode in a Panamera 4S a few weeks ago and the ride was not what I was expecting. I was expecting something like my 2020 300S but it was butter smooth and sharp in corners. This new suspension must be amazing.
That 77ms response time seems a bit slow to me. At 100km/h that's more than 2 meters of travel. Compared that to cheap hobby drones are running an 8khz control loop, and are able to adjust motor speeds 1200 times a second.
I think there is still much left at the table, and we will see great wonders coming.
That's exactly what I wondered there's a comment comparing this to predictive suspension and I was wondering there if maybe the distance travelled seems more in my head than it actually is but 2m is a LOT and that's just at legal speeds! On a track it'll be an entire section of the corner behind! Also idk if you can feel 13x/sec but 77ms is definitely tangible eye blink is 25ms & 10ms is still detectible
Magnaride (MRC) is much quicker reacting
The mechanical feedback time is the limiting factor here. The software could react much faster.
@@beanapprentice1687 YEP, THIS!! That is why MRC is so quick, there is nothing mechanical about its operation, it's all magnetic and electrical charges
@@z06van21 what? Magnaride reacts to mechanical feedback too, lol. Its not the spring rate update speed thats the issue here. And anyways, MRC has a more limited range of updates, which makes it a little useless for ride quality applications, and its heavier. There's a reason it hasnt got much traction compared with hydraulic systems, outside of the few muscle cars and "super" cars like the mustangs and vettes. Those are cars designed to be budget friendly and so they can afford 10% more mass or a harsher ride or a more disconected feel to the road. A Vette can be as fast as a Porsche, or even faster, but it will never be that and ride as well or feel as connected as the Porsche.
this channel had a good run, thanks guys from Overdrive
Very clever, but in answer to your question, it depends whether you want enjoyment or pace. I’ve recently bought the slowest car I’ve ever owned by a long way, an MX5 mk2.5, and have modified it for ride, handling and feedback and left the puny engine alone. It’s great! For the first time ever, the fastest car I own is my long distance cruiser, and it really doesn’t matter to me. So whilst I’d be fascinated to see a bonkers hybrid 911 with active ride, I’d personally be happier in a 996 GT3, or even a modded 964 C2. I just like driving, and the less weight the better, and usually the fewer gizmos the better too. For me driving enjoyment is a Caterham, a Formula Ford, or something like that, not a mad computerised hypercar.
The Citroën Xantia Activa (1990-ties) managed to do all this, reliably and with excellent ride quality and handling at 12V. (granted: it wasn't electric but hydropneumatic)
Reliably?
@@stupidocanerosa I drove one for 8 years
active suspension FINALLY realizing it's potential. for the naysayers who argue its too heavy, too complicated, too expensive, and uses too much power. think a second about allthe tech improvements that happened since electronics have taken over cars. electronic ignition, injection,ABS, traction/stability control. each add some weight, complexity, and electric consumption, but the benefits far outweigh the downsides.
Injection requires fuel pumps, wven steonger with direct injection, but the ability to control AF ratio precisely means more power, torque, better efficiency, less emissions, better reliability. plus it adapts to altitude, temperature, rpms, throttle. same for variable valve timing/lift engine breathes better in wvery condition.
True active suspension (not adaptive damping) is the natural evolution that will make cars way more comfortable at all speeds and on every road surface, but also corner perfectly flat with no need for overly harsh suspension or even antiroll bars which reduce the wuality of the suspension, and will hugely increase grip on roads that are not perfectly smooth.
it doeant make sense that every luxury limo or hypercar doesn't have it already. Porsche, Ferrari have finally jumped in but chinese manifacturer Nio has understood the potential and ordered 3 MILLION active suspensions.
also, power consumption will be offset in large part with less energy lost defirming tires, amd sending vibrations throufh the all chassis. if you think about how faster a bike, skateboard, etc rolls over a veey smooth pavement vs cobblestones, speed bumps, gravel, etc
these systems wont use a lot of power on a smooth road, and when they do work a lot, using power, they will also make the cars roll better.
weight
Damp and dampen are interchangeable when used as verbs in this context. So dampers and dampeners would be as well.
I believe this is the right answer but there are people who get heated about which one is correct!
What word do you use for something that wets things if dampener is taken to mean the same as damper?
Does it cushion from the pain of depreciation?
@1:55 Sorry bud you're completely wrong, VAG design philosophy is the other way around they start at the top and then the lesser vehicles are stripped down versions from that. So you can't say it is isn't a supercar because it wasn't built in such a fashion from the ground up. Which is kind of a weird thing to say considering there isn't a 'base version' of the new taycan available yet.
The active suspension is driven by hydraulics and sounds like the hydraulic pump is driven off a 400V electricity.
So it can be fitted to a combustion car with an auxiliary pump.
A belt driven pump might not be able to produce enough pressure in the system to create 77ms changes in suspension characteristics. Another way is with a secondary high-voltage alternator. Bose did this with their experimental active suspension. The downside was that the alternator was heavy and consumed 5-6 hp.
@@OVERDRIVE.studios auxiliary drive is more than capable of carrying 100+ HP. Supercharged engine uses this set up.
@@OVERDRIVE.studios Capacitors might be the soliution in this case
@@procatprocat9647 But you have to charge them, so back to the top
Honestly, a 5-6hp loss is worth it for being able to have active suspension, especially on higher horsepower cars. You're trading some straightline speed for much improved cornering speed.
Active ride in the Turbo will be incredible in every condition, making the car more comfortable for GT use and approaching GT3 RS performance on the track!
I test drove the new Panamera with this system. It is very cool, but for ride comfort on bad roads it is super overrated. Just choosing the cheaper smaller rims (higher tire sidewalls) will give you a much better improvement in ride quality.
There are only very specific frequencies at which this suspension helps ride quality (as seen in their marketing videos).
This Porsche suspension is a ClearMotion suspension. Lots of false information. It’s overrated tech.
So informational! I love this format of your episodes.
I'm surprised they use a lot of energy since they should be able to absorb a lot of energy to feed back to the battery. Bigger concern for me though is cost/maintenance/reliability. I am scared to see the price of a replacement damper.
There's no reason an electromagnetic system couldn't charge the battery using energy harvested from the suspension on rough roads. It's just waste heat in the dampers otherwise - to get an idea how much, they change dampers between stages on rallys when they can, because they heat up enough that the damper oil viscosity can drift out of the design range. They can be too hot to hold with bare hands.
Very well explained!
I find it crazy how i thought about this idea a while back. The leaning into a corner to maximise turning speed with the weight balance.
imagine a 911 with its insane launch + porsche's no lag turbos + porsche's ARS.
This is a GREAT video. Thanks for the detailed explanation and context!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Spring rates won’t meaningfully affect the amount of weight transfer which is almost entirely a function of cg height and wheelbase / track. Active suspension will affect the rate of weight transfer and will dramatically reduce the momentum effects of the body sloshing around under change of direction.
Mercedes was doing this with the C215 (CL Coupé) 25 years ago, if you've ever lobbed one of those two tonne monsters down a road its surprising how well they drive for such a huge vehicle.
The good old days when 2 tonnes was a monstrously heavy car.
Mclaren are THE best in suspension technology. I've never driven a car with such ferocity and compliance in one car
3:46 I think you made a units error. No spec of HMMWV weighs 4900 lbs. The base spec is 7500 lbs BUT the armored HMMVW that you showed weighs over 10,000 lbs.
and now imagine that at some point, porsche will switch to a dual motor system instead of their single motor that they have now in the back. two independent wheels with independent slip control. that optimizes the acceleration power even further.
they are working on it for years now but the problem currently is also the power limitation of the battery. if you slam in two motors in the back but the power limiting factor is the battery, then the gain is not that much.
and then there is the problem with weight. in the next version, which probably comes in three to four years, i suspect the battery having 5% more energy but 5% less weight.
and now, that the new taycan already has a good range, they will go for a mix of more range and less weight instead of only going for range with the same weight.
I thought for a long while that was what the "active suspension" from F1 years ago was, I was disappointed that it was just ride height. Also, 13 samples per second seems slow, but I guess that is smoothed by the low spring rate.
you have definitely made an electrified 911 much more interesting.
Please do a in depth break down of the Tractive Suspension which adjusts in milliseconds, is way lighter and does not require the high voltage.
free the brands hatch indy circuit lap record holder
I think that they will utilize this suspension system in the next generation of 911 (993?). I predict that they will have a significantly bigger battery pack and use a 800 volts system instead of the 400 volts system in the 992.2 GTS.
I found this interesting... especially being a Porsche fanatic.
How do you insure your car on track days ? Is it a separate insurance ?
It would be really interesting to compare and contrast the Mclaren suspension system vs. Porsches. And why Mclaren seems to be able to do active using a 12v system where as Porsche has decided to only apply it to their higher voltage system. And with the 911 GTS now announced.... does it have enough voltage to make this a reality?
Interesting video. But does it make the driving experience better?
Porsche 911 doesn't need the active ride out of 2 reasons: 1st: the 911 doesn't have to carry the same weight as an EV, 2nd: the 911 beats the Rimac Nevera and the McLaren Senna at the Nürburgring as a unmodified sports car. Let's see what the 911 will be able to do
Great explanation of springs and dampeners, i absolutely learned something here today! :Clap:
Glad to hear it!
Is there any difference with the Citroen Xantia Activa suspensión I’ve got 20 years ago? 🤔 it was active AND hydraulic
"Damper" is historically correct. However, "dampener" is so widely misused by now that it is well on its way to being a legitimate alternative. This is how languages evolve.
The same is true for "caster" vs. "castor."
I am really impressed how Porsches managed to sell a hybrid 911 as a upgrade to customers, which are notoriously disliking electrification in cars.
I think the taycan is a glimpse, how hard the new 911 will demolish anything on track
Jorg Bergmeister just clocked the new hybrid 911 test mule at 8.7s faster on the ring than the previous gen. That's properly fast.
@@SonicProvocateur just 9s? Maybe I was too optimistic here
@@johnathankrausrig9237 8.7s faster than the Turbo S
Cool video, I think electric cars have a lot of potential once we get over the massive weight but they will never have a real v8 feel 😢
I wonder how this suspension would help tire deg. Hypercar/LmDH wouldn’t allow it, but man this should be on a prototype.
That's a really interesting question. We didn't cover this, but the system is programmed to take advantage of normal camber changes that occur as the suspension compresses or extends, to maximize contact patch. That would also help keep temperature and wear more even, potentially reducing degradation.
I wonder if the Taycan can go between Nurburgring track record suspension settings to NIO glass balancing (without spillage) on a bumpy test track, all with just software and changes in modes.....would be cool if it did.
Can you please compare it to Audi S8 predictive suspension
Didn't have time to cover that in this video, but there are two big differences. The Audi uses air springs to adjust the suspension and it scans the road ahead to adjust predictively. Porsche determined that because their system can react within 77ms, partly because it doesn't rely on adjusting air springs, it wasn't worth the added complexity to scan and predict.
@@OVERDRIVE.studios Thanks so much for the info. AFAIK Audi predictive suspension uses motors along each air suspension with 48v, it can tilt and keep level in corners and acceleration. It would be interesting to see the main differences and design decisions as both fro VW groupe. Thanks again for your content, keep it up!
@@LUMLTZ05 Yup, that's correct. The Audi is mild-hybrid which mildly solves the energy problem
@@OVERDRIVE.studiosGlad this came up - it's proven itself but still 77ms seems slow? It's 3 times slower than the blink of an eye. At speed that's significant ground covered. I don't get how it can adjust dampers quick enough compared with if it could scan ahead? Or maybe I'm picturing the ground covered in that time as more than it actually will and in that timeframe it'll still capture the bump or dip in the road?
Porsche is on fire as of late, new Taycan and Macan EVs are practically at Tesla level of power an efficiency. They leapfroged everyone and are actually making meaningfull innovations in the car industry.
Great video and information! Although you are very much wrong about the weight of a Humvee. The lightest version of the HMMWV or Humvee is 5,900 pounds. That's 1,000 more than this Taycan.
Lightest I found was M998 A0 at 5,200 lbs. Weissach Taycan is 4,925lbs. Figured a difference of 275 lbs wasn't *too* hyperbolic at those weights!
@@OVERDRIVE.studiosWhy show a picture of an up-armored HMMWV and not an M998, though? The armor makes them much, much heavier, to the point of ruining the comparison.
Power to weight means nothing. Torque at the wheels to weight is everything
I miss what this channel was.
Glad to see cars are finally catching up to the UZZ32 Active Suspension Toyota Soarer from 1991. The most sophisticated road car every made.
It will make the 911 almost as good as the Boxster "S". Active ride Suspension, Independent individual wheel Steering by wire. Braking by wire with Wheel Hub Motors with Regen Braking. Then we are almost all the same 4 combined units one at each corner! Making sure that wheels remain absolutely vertical no matter how far they are turned! Maximum road/ track contact area all of the time!
The standard 911 suspension is already superior to the Boxster as it is currently.
@@darthnatas953 That's by choice! Theirs because that what they choose to fit! Don't forget that the Boxster saved Porsche from bankruptcy! the 911 is the ultimate development of the VW BUG! Axle, Transmission, Engine, hanging out the back end! The complete reverse of F1 & Indy cars! The theory is central mass low centre of gravity.
6:28 there is no change in air pressure, only in air volume.
I remember Lexus having something like this years ago, but that was for comfort an Porsche did it for performance
My ‘02 LX470 has a hydraulic suspension much like this… wonder what my lap time would be
Hi ! 👋 Nice video, very insightful. Keep doing what you’re doing. 😃 Take care. 😄
it would be cool if they can take this technology to a rally...where the suspension really matters
This all sounds very similar to the active suspension in my 1995 Mitsubishi 3000GT, probably a bit more reactive now but the same idea.
Mitsubishi were ridiculously ahead of their time in the 1990s, sadly the past 2 decades haven't gone well for them. I had the pleasure of driving one of the MIVEC cars a few years back, and, unlike a lot of the VTEC Hondas, they chose gearbox ratios that allowed you to keep it in high revving MIVEC mode all the time, while the Hondas would drop off VTEC and bog down after each gear shift, even shifting at the red line.
That was interesting 😊
This suspension is an outsourced part shared with China’s Nio. They are both supplied by the same company called ClearMotion. That company also bought the Bose suspension patent.
Lots of false information out there saying Porsche designed this. They did not.
Ah, yes, the "four door hypercar" with two seats and the "secret weapon" that is only its most talked about feature.
What happened to the spanish dubbing? the audio option does not appear
I have a pretzel in my head!
A humvee might weigh 5900lbs but the one in the picture with the armor and turret probably weighs 7000-10000lbs
I’m 2023 992 owner, funny thing is that my 2002 Mercedes CL have much more advanced suspension than brand new Porsche.
Porsche 911 992.2 testcars are on the street with hybrid so the insane suspension will come in the 911 and they will go in corners like nothing
EV advocates: "Battery-powered cars are the natural alternative to petrol cars at increasing circuit performance, without trying too hard."
Also EV advocates: installing a 400V suspension system strong enough to make a military Humvee jump like it saw a ghost. And will be faster than petrol, "next year," as always. 😅
No talk about the lotus evija, a prototype EV that lapped a 6:24?
Nope! The Evija X is a heavily modified track-only version. If they'd done a lap in the road-going Evija, that would be different, and they should! It's 1,000 lbs. lighter than the Rimac!
Customers are not looking favourably on the Taycan range. Most of the last model buyers are finding nobody wants them. Not even companies akin to "We Buy Any Piece of Junk" do not want them at any price.
It doesn't matter how cheap a car is to buy when one component costs more than the entire car when it fails. This is why the only good value second hand electric car is one that costs very little but has the good fortune of being reliable. Sadly batteries are not built to be serviced, so it's an all or nothing replacement, and it's not like second hand batteries are promising to be any better, so nobody in the second hand market is going to buy unless they can afford to take a near complete loss on scrapping it as soon as anything goes wrong with the battery.
Imagine a hybrid, active suspension gt2 rs
Williams did this ages ago, so what is the difference? Over 30 years and technology has move on but is it not the same thing, Scott?
AKA the same suspension Ferrari and Mercedes borrow from GM, used on the Corvette since 2007? Impressive?
It's a Porsche xantia activa
If they need to calm the springs down they should call on The Scousers. "A'rite calm down calm down.
What about bose with their suspension using electromagnets. It was an experiment but still.
3:35 - A little over one Volvo V70 lol
Öhlins was right all along ... act surprised!
9:55 RWB reference?
Is it a reason to get excited? No. We fear change
The car will feel unnatural, it is not only about performance! The most important things at a sport car are feeling, pleasure, the natural balance, fun, be reliable, and to feel involved. With electric steering and electric braking already it start a downfall. To have a mechanical and simple car is way more interesting.
A failing or failed damper is a dampener.
Let’s go
Imagine (Porsche) cars would scan the road and predict your behaviour (which line you will drive etc.) and use that data to update ARS even more often.
Wold this even be an improvement? I don't know, but mabye...
Is ARS legal or used in gt racing? Edit, just watched the end of the video, needs a high voltage battery 😂
God bless external companies that made this happen, and Porsche for buying the IP
But Lotus did this is 1980 on an Esprit?
Sounds expensive af to fix 😂