Just to be clear in case there are any questions: The testing in this video was not so much testing as it was a "showcase" to demonstrate the lack of heavy ammo drops when running double special. The same goes for showing off ammo finders. I think double special will still be useable if half your team takes it into contest mode for Crota's End. A full team could easily run this if Cenotaph / Aeons are effective in the raid as well! For most other applications, if you don't need an abundance of heavy (e.x. wherever you can rally for raids and 1 phase bosses) then double special should still feel the exact same!
I really hate the base 80ish kills for heavy drops. Using an ability centric build like bonk hammer is basically hamstringing yourself at this point. The heavy focus on teammates generating heavy with 0 guaranteed ways to make heavy for yourself is horribly unfun. The amount of times I have gone through an entire strike with 1 or even 0 heavy drops is an annoyance
@@Arteps1dude blueberries aren’t worth shit if you need to rely on them for anything ever:(. I hate being mean too but I swear unless they’re being mentored and carried hard and you have insane buildcrafting with super strong stuff, they gimp everything and I don’t mean to be mean but if you’re doing anything mildly difficult they do stupid shit and always die for it with no exceptions… I’m sorry man but if you have a shit loadout, shit armor, and shit for brains too please just turn the game off and go because you refuse to GET GOOD.
The seasonal mod that generates ammo with elemental orbs make both heavy and special ammo pretty consistently. I'd say it's a must have mod. Teams will definitely be using it on day 1
I think this should not apply to Trace Rifles. Using a Trace Rifle with a primary feels so weak/out of place, this will effectively kill Traces unless you're using Cenotaph.
I honestly feel that they should make trace rifles into primary ammo weapons, they just don’t feel like they belong in the special ammo category to me.
@daskrieg3057 that would mean infinite ammo for Ager's Scepter and The Navigator. No way Bungo is allowing that. It would mean the immediate return of primary ammo pickups.
@@WhtCrstlJudgmntDrgn that's true, I don't need them to be primary, but they only feel useful when they're played as Primary weapons. Problem is, playing without Heavy Ammo scavenger or without orb generation to fit a special ammo scavenger (which we don't know how effective it is on double specials) feels awful. That's bad design.
@WhtCrstlJudgmntDrgn bungie does have the capability of making exotics have a different ammo type from their legendary weapon type counterparts. Whisper, tractor, fighting lion to name a few. It is possible, they can just make those still take special
@@bonez994 oh, I agree with you. One of my favorite weapons is Lorentz Driver, but considering the effects of those two weapons on particular and the recent push they made to make trace rifles viable (then effectively tell us to not use them this season), makes me doubt their decision making abilities.
Note that his recommendations at the end started to sound like a team comp that wouldn't look too out of place in an mmo setting: main ad-clearers tasked to generate ammo with finder/scouts with a member with an ammo generating exotic to guarantee drops where applicable. Leaving only 2 or 3 with double specials (probably as main dpsers).
It does for sure. They just have to find a way to encourage it and reward that type of team work. They have scratched the surface of teamwork throughout destiny’s history but never really got it ironed out. This could be the start of it. I always enjoyed support roles in mmos and would love to see destiny move more towards the classical roles in other mmos.
@420bob1493 finally! Some one gets it! I've been clocking onto the changes they've made for the past couple of expansions and made my builds to fit into a role as part of a larger team. Tank, healer, monk, ranger, black mage, scout... it can be done. Each build on their own are powerful in their own right but I know if they were in a team and everybody played to their role, it would easily be the most powerful and well rounded team possible.
@@VRGUILEIn terms of raids and dungeons though, it's also the same as MMOs, always go for the option that maximizes dps with the bare minimum for survivability.
Is it an overreaction to say that trace rifles seem like they got an indirect nerf from this? They play so much like a primary yet there doesn’t seem to be any real point to run them over an actual primary ammo weapon now. I get there’s situational utility in different encounters but just speaking to them filling the primary weapon role.
@@colincampbell465traces are still good when you need to operate symbols/switches and stuff (most ammo efficient special by a country mile) and don’t want to use a primary with ass dmg output
The main reason im still using them is that they can act as ad clear weapons while storing special ammo. When DPS starts i can switch to a damage special weapon allowing me to be able to ad clear and use my full damage rotation no matter what
Trace rifts did get nerfed through this, but with how legendary primaries feel rn( ie, throwing wet tissue paper) if u can't run a exotic primary (say u on ghorn/tractor) it'll still much better.
From what bungie has said; double special should work the same way a primary does in generating a natural heavy brick. The reason it was so nice is that you could actually have a decent amount of heavy for a second phase of a boss as it was totally random if I anywhere between 0-half...
I definitely think they went a little overboard, while it definitely needed a nerf the global heavy drops should’ve slightly increased. Can’t tell you how many gms or raid encounters where the only heavy I get is the starting ammo or a I get a single brick (while double special was still effective I just wasn’t using 2 specials). A slight global buff would’ve made the situation a little less drastic as now heavy is about as rare as exotic engrams 💀💀
The one thing I liked about double special wasn’t the large amounts of heavy, it was the large amount of special I’d make. My builds are usually ability-focused as well, so if I needed some special ammo for my trace rifle etc, I’d just swap to my heavy and throw some grenades or whatnot. Now that stuff is ruined and I basically have no reason to every run a trace rifle again, as it was used more as a primary on builds like ones with Gyrfalcon or Contraverse Hold more than anything. Yeah, I guess I have a reason to pull out primaries again, but running two more useful specials felt really good. I also didn’t always need the heavy unless I met a really beefy target anyways.
One criminally underrated build I've been running around with recently is running around as a strand Titan with feedback fence and stacks on stacks. All I do is melee an enemy twice either with a glaive or melee. And immediately I'm at four stacks. Then all I do is use the special ammo finisher to consume all of those charges on the weakened enemy. Then punch another enemy and repeat. And if they melee back. It nukes the room and with both woven mail and the new aspect war banner at Max stack. I have the survivability to be able to face tank a lot of damage especially with a glaive for shielding because even when I am shielding and a melee enemy hits me. It still will proc the feedback fences. It gives me nearly permanent up time and in the fight with special ammo.
This indirectly nerfed stasis builds with weapons such as Ager's Scepter since not only is the main reason to even use any trace rifle now removed but in comparison to other build like sunbracers warlock or assassins cowl arc hunter which mostly use abilities anyway, stasis barely has any damage and really relies on special/power weapons to kill things. So much for wanting to make the game more weapon focused XD All the actually powerful builds will still run sniper + gl or similar variations while killing everything with grenades/melees using barely any ammo. Only the builds with rather little intrinisc ability-damage will be heavily impacted by this change.
Honestly, I don’t know why heavy drops isn’t just RNG, with the odds increasing after a certain point. Like killing red bars grant a 5% chance to drop heavy up to whatever number of kills, and then if no heavy drops at that point then the odds increase.
Take a look at everyone who pray to RNGesus and still don't have vex and ask them if they want to pray to him again like it's a gatcha game for the means to even beat atheon.
It already is RNG, but there's a safe net. If after X amount of kills nothing dropped then here's a finder brick (if you have a heavy finder mod). Do you hate safe nets for ammo or what?
Double specials are still alive. If used correctly. One weapon has to be for adclear and have good ammo economy and second one must be for fat targets. It is still potent, just not musthave. But exotic primaries are stronger then ever now.
While yes, you can still run double special, but why most primaries are just as capable ad clear weapons making double ammo management the only difference with no benefit. I loved double special, so it hurt to run primaries again, but there is literally 0 reason to run double special
@@Sargatasits still a whole lot of kills for maybe a chance at some form of heavy brick. and while primaries are "ok" at best they arent reliable since anything past "Hero" difficulty takes about 4 Hand-Canon shots to kill still.
@@hypernebula8711 I don't know what game you're playing to believe primaries aren't doing enough damage in master level content to kill anything in less than half a mag (outside of the legitimately weak options). Go figure, the weapons that trade unlimited ammo for more damage kill things faster?
Am I understanding something wrong or did he say 2-3 RESERVE mods are the only way to get 2-3 rockets? Since when do reserve mods cause you to pick up more ammo arent they just suppose to make u hold more?
Appreciate the analysis - I have a few general loadouts for raiding, one of which is simply "add clear and make ammo". Already had Aeons, scav, double heavy finder, exotic primary - after this, I've added double reserves and double heavy scout to the mix, downgrading to single heavy finder. Will see how it goes over S22.
Been running a Discord/Hatchling pressurized precision fusion, erianas vow, and a circular logic with envious assassin/hatchling on a strand build. Discord basically gives you infinite ammo for 7 seconds after getting a kill with another weapon. I think hatchling/threadling kills are counting towards these new counters.
Ah yes indeed, time to shoehorn my space wizard into not being a space wizard anymore. If all these ammo mods were utter dogshit requiring every other ammo mod to be good then maybe I'd consider them usable. If a scavenger mod is absolutely necessary to make ammo finders worth taking. Then there is a problem with the ammo finder. Why should I drop ashes to assets or an orb siphon mod AND a surge or orb pickup mod in order to be able to get a usable amount of heavy for anything that isn't a machine gun.
# 2 things to take note 1. Heavy drop rates - Base: 1 brick/83.5 kills - e.g., using Abilities/Heavy - Special: per ~76 kills - Primary: per 20 kills - Exotic Primary: per 17 kills 2. Finder & Scout - Finder & Scout mods do not drop more bricks. They cause dropped bricks to give more ammo - Stacks with Scavenger - Finder mods cause dropped bricks to give more ammo **only to the user** - Scout mods cause dropped bricks to give more ammo **only to allies** - In a team, Scout would be better since it benefits 2-5 people rather than just 1 # Given the above, to maximize heavy ammo: 1. Select 2 fireteam members who are on ad clear - 2 so they can feed off each other's Scout bricks 2. Those 2 members will use: - Exotic Primary - 2 Scout mods 3. Everyone on the fireteam (including those 2) can optionally run: - 1+ Finder mods - Scavenger mod
I'm unsure about the finders but when I was using double special pre-nerf I did notice that abilities would generate ammo based on what was in hand every time, so I would assume they increment the counters accordingly as well.
Fact of the matter is Bungie nerfed double special so Scavenger mods wouldn't feel completely useless since they were adding reduced scavenger mod cost to their seasonal artifact.
do you need to land the kill with the exotic primary or just have it out? edit: just tested myself. looks like you need to at least deal damage with the exotic
So I am curious. You used weapons here to generate the heavy bricks but how does it work with abilities. Titan's clear rooms with their fists and arc hunter can do the same, as well as sunbracer warlocks. So do those all count as non exotic primaries? Or would they count as maybe special. I need to do some testing of my own.
@reedwojo7858 they do and they dont because if you watch like any old solos of ghosts youd notice the room was flooded even with them never shooting a gun
@@btr1011 yeah exactly this, I literally streamed a solo flawless Monday night before the patch and I had almost 50 bricks of heavy at one point during EKthar
@@btr1011I havent done a solo dungeon since the reset, but the old ones were usually running double special, so how about now? Also solo you are getting all of the kills, in a team setting you are getting a fraction of them so no single player may get enough to generate.
What about special exotics? Do those also have increased drop rates over apraxia’s ammo legendaries the way exotic primaries have improved rates over legendary primaries?
Man I am struggling. I have been crunching double special for months now and now I am back using a primary and it’s honestly hindering my enjoyment. I guess I’ll just use exotic primary now
It’s truly awful to use a non-Exotic primary weapon in _any_ moderately challenging content. They just. Aren’t. Lethal. There’s no role for them in the sandbox. Endgame PvE requires you to hit _hard_ or essentially die. You don’t have time to plink single targets down with 75% of your primary’s magazine while half a dozen others are swarming you. They just feel absolutely useless.
@@stevescruby1343 yeah I’ve gone back to Osteo or sunshot if I’m on solar. Ammo still sucks but it is what it is. If I play with friends they all have exotic primary and scouts on so it’s ok
As a warlock, i just feel so starved for ammo all the time. I want to run sunbracers, but doing so actively hurts me because i cannot generate ammo since im not getting primary kills. Also, does anyone else feel like heavy ammo finder does nothing? I can be slaying out with a handcannon and just get no ammo.
I already miss double special, up until recently I was stuck in this minset of always having an exotic primary all the time, and heavy weapons are reserved only for boss dps. Double special opened up the use of exotic specials, machine guns grenade launchers and linears, as well as really giving value to lead from gold. And finder bricks suck. The show up too little and give too little. They also cut you out of being able to generate super energy or orbs. Real shame. You basically have to rely on your teammates if you want to use x2 spec. And no way is that going well as a solo player.
To be honest double specials were fun af. Like using Forbearence to electrocute red bars and using riptide to kill yellow bars and commemoration to do heavy damage. Using non-exotic primaries feels so weak and un-fun now. Double Special made you feel like a war machine, a violence craving guardian. Man I tried my usual double special loadout, and it hardly creates a heavy brick in a strike. I miss it already. Now I had to replace my favourite legendary weapon Forbearance with Sunshot (since it got a big buff and does the ad clear job). Bungie either keeps such fun things or instead of reducing the fun part takes it out entirely from the equation.
I remember that by holding primary or heavy in double special loadout, you were able to get more special drops. Did they nerf this too or did they only touch heavy when holding spexial in double special loadout?
“You use double special because you want heavy ammo, i use double special because I run triple shotgun, we are not the same” Same with fusions but less and Pretty soon if these perks pools line up i might be retrying triple sniper soon 👀 discord is wonderful
How does "Juggler produce more heavy weapons ammo with double special and less with mixed one if you're saying that "Juggler" reduces drops for _currently equipped_ weapon? Do you magically run with heavy weapons ablze much more if you have mixed load out? I think you don't understand how it really works. It is better to check that type of things before making statements.
Does Shoot-to-Loot take mods into account as far as amount of ammo picked up? I use StL a lot but I always feel like it's not giving me much super when I shoot Orbs (vs running over them) so IDK if it's necessarily the same as running over bricks either
Do we know if there is a cool down on heavy ammo generation related to picking up heavy ammo? It's interesting to me that there would be variance in the real drops generated but I must look into the heavy ammo phases
For finders, you need weapon kills. Abilities will not proc it (but presumably, getting ability kills have an indeterminate chance of generating ammo in general, afaik)
ON sunbracers, synthos, arc hunter, and other ability heavy builds. Definitely yes. Your ability is your primary On raid damage rotations, yes because of special finisher and an encounter should be enough phases to have a steady flow of heavy and special On weapon heavy builds and longer, drawn out activities with challenging enemy ... Maybe not
This seriously cannot be stressed and is the answer. Using the"4th slot/gun" and having a reliable ability loadout setup across classes you can incorporate is massive for a situation when you really need to be on top of your ammo tally and to preserve some bricks. In my opinion it is one of the most satisfying feelings and a very good factor at higher skilled PVE mastery. I myself have long been a fan of the PVE gunpowder gamble build with Young Ahamkara Spine because the amount you can spam gamble bundles is absurd. Conventionally harder higher difficulty content that's loadout locked , ehhh its where your options get limited and not entirely worth leaning so hard into double special, but still technically possible. Day 1 raid, assuming not really much has changed even with the info we got in twab today for Crota, I would say you could still very much pull it off as it's not like contest stuff are as chunky as other things. We've only gotten more powerful. When in doubt you can always swap off weapons. **TL DR** Be the gun.
@@imcarolean it literally is, if it stayed in content would need to begin to be balanced around double special and the sheer amount of heavy bricks dropped, leaving primaries in the dust completely, this is the same shit that happened with well of radiance, pve still requires balance changes to avoid power creep
I think it was just an oversight and we start at like a mid level reserve count. Then in harder content it's probably just to make things easier. Especially in the case of something like master VOG w/ no rally. Having low ammo would make that much harder for people to open the vault door.
So basically just run an Exotic Primary, use a singel Finder + Scout and use a single Scavenger during the Mechanics phase of an Encounter and Switch to surges for DPS to get the easiest roi for Rocket ammo. If Machineguns are used I can see myself using multiple Scouts, though I 100% won't go for the chance of a 3 Ammo pickup in Rocket scenarios, I'd rather have Ashes to Assets etc. to boost my neutral game, since getting 17 kills for a brick really aint that big of a deal. If everyone in your Fireteam (in a Raid setting) simply get 17 kills each, you'll produce an effective 12 Rocket ammo either way.
no the increased heavy drops have never been the main reason to run double special, they were only an added bonus the potency of double special for damage output and add clear remains the same
Double special while using ability builds like sunbracers doesn’t feel any different to me than before the nerf. Because I can just throw a grenade at someone’s face instead of laying on the trigger till I’m out of special. Just have purple and green bricks all over the floor till I need it.
No. Edit: Not a nerf as you can just put on ammo finders. It is removed. As for the bricks, you can make a minimum of 0 kills (orbs have chance as well as engrams and aoe damage from environment). Realistically you can just kill enemies with grenades for drops. Increased rate. Have no sources to link this. Do not care to look for it.
What’s the solution for solo players? I feel like everything is targeted at teams and multiple people running finder/scav mods for ammo. All of friends were smart enough to quit 😂
No idea why they nerfed this, It's just funny it happens to happen after all the speed runs or solo content got posted in the last 2 seasons. Why so solo players always get targeted lol
I still play every day with double specials... i still get lots of heavy and special drops and still get special ammo back in my mag when i get out of ammo. I dont really notice a difference tbh.
To add to this all. Rockets are no longer the only DPS option. Their are actual choices you have to make now in regards to damage loadout. A rotation laodout without a rocket may be better for ammo needs and multi role usage. GL’s now are back on the menu. The reason for this is that they maybe changed something with how pack round projectiles interact with with a target. They now explode in proximity to a target not IN a target. The projectiles may have been passing through targets and not exploding right away causing slightly more damage. As of right now, gally boosted rockets only is not the best DPS wise, nor are rotations that rely on gally boosted rocket damage.
@@pongu6120 ok coming from the spped running community rockets are still the best with ghorn the difference is the gap between them and say gls and linears is much smaller honestly even tlord looking comparable now
I expect Bungie will have to become more generous w/ ammo drops. The stats you presented can become a problem in several content. Playing w/ loadouts will become more of a requirement until then. It is a pity since ammo MODs eliminates the option for other "more valued" MODs.
Generation of an extreme amount of heavy isn't really thay necessary though, how often are you relying on a heavy weapon to kill things that aren't bosses? Primary weapons are more than capable of taking down anything from red bars to champions. Dealing with an overload? Use monarque. Dealing with barrier champions? Wish ender And for unstoppables? Malfeasance. And each option can still do wonders against all other types of enemies. You don't need heavy for anything other than boss dps and you don't need special period unless you really want to kill things extremely quickly or struggle with surviving
They don't want it to be easy to have infinite heavy ammo. And neither do I... if they have to design around infinite heavy ammo, then future heavy weapons will be meh to compensate. Heavy and special are meant to be situational. It would be lame to play with a bunch of xenophage spammers, just one tapping everything.
If you can guarantee everything in the game, like having heavy ammo all the time you’ve just made the game boring on top of the powercreep we already have
double special was so much better for variety. Now we're all going to be forced into using all helmet energy for heavy drops, and bungie is going to take that data and say "this is overused, and needs to be nerfed". With double special, you were free to use your helmet energy for whatever other mods.
The irony is that because exotic primaries do so much more damage than legendary primaries, there is no conceivable reason to run anything BUT an exotic primary. Double special gave you an alternative - skip the primary, and use an exotic special or exotic heavy.
I disagree, legendary primaries feel really good now, especially after the massive hand cannon buff. My Fatebringer feels like it hits like a freight train.
Boooo, god i really dont get bungie, they really couldn't find a better way then to just nuke the playstyle, double special was so fun and a great yse of the free flowing loadout system they added, so why destroy it
So what I took from this Video is that im more or less for es to play with the totally ballanced Malfeasance to provides heavy ammo *laughs in his Lucky Pants*:)
@@gmeinersYT Add clear with exotic primary to make all the bricks you show. Switch to DPS loadout of double special and heavy. IF the two double specials have "Lead from Gold", they too have max ammo. Switch back to exotic primary to clear ads again after DPS. I think you misunderstood my comment as it wasn't REALLY formulated properly and easily misconstrued.
**********PSA: The game will not let you have 0 ammo in all 3 slots it will give you ammo******** You DON'T need to worry about ammo drops if running double special. The game GIVES ammo if you are out 😮💨😮💨😮💨😮💨 takes literally 3 seconds and you will get like 1/4 ammo to both your specials and if there is heavy ammo on the ground you get that too. It's soooo frustrating no one mentions this when there are people who want to run double special but worry about ammo. It's the most broken mechanic in the game.
Its not the special ammo part of it its the hevey even forbearance takes a good second to get 80 kills for 1 rocket yes the game will never let you be 0 but it doesn't change the fact of your hevey economy suffers and sadly most the double special loadouts reli on the power for bosses
@btr1011 what content are you talking about? Raids you have banners so should always have full heavy. In gms it's rng without the exotics but honestly even going into the boss room with little to no heavy isn't that big of a deal, and sometimes you are full heavy and had the benefit of using weapons that actually slay adds all the way there.
Eheee heee i am running double specials ....giving tone of heavy drops you just have to know one thing wich obviously i am not going to tell to get nerfed may whoever finds it not tell to his team too having nice days 🌚🤪🤪
At least for me, yes double specials is definitely dead. I hate running ammo finder and scout mods. The brick they generate is crap. They really need to revisit their ammo formula cuz relying on the artifact and mods for an Integral part of the game (ammo) is shit game design. Mods and perks should be a bonus not mandatory 🙄
Well in reality they do have an answer they gave 2 of them ceno and aeons where only 1 or 2 people need to forgo a exotic durring down time to gen hevey
Just to be clear in case there are any questions:
The testing in this video was not so much testing as it was a "showcase" to demonstrate the lack of heavy ammo drops when running double special. The same goes for showing off ammo finders.
I think double special will still be useable if half your team takes it into contest mode for Crota's End. A full team could easily run this if Cenotaph / Aeons are effective in the raid as well!
For most other applications, if you don't need an abundance of heavy (e.x. wherever you can rally for raids and 1 phase bosses) then double special should still feel the exact same!
Is the new kool aid power coming in last shape?
I use special finishers and I think they nerfed orbs of power generation
I really hate the base 80ish kills for heavy drops. Using an ability centric build like bonk hammer is basically hamstringing yourself at this point. The heavy focus on teammates generating heavy with 0 guaranteed ways to make heavy for yourself is horribly unfun. The amount of times I have gone through an entire strike with 1 or even 0 heavy drops is an annoyance
Yeah the scout system is great and all, but not every activity has 6 players lol.
@@starlightrainsits alright noone likes running team scout mods
True, plus the fact that you'll have to rely on random blueberries using finder mods in the first place
@@Arteps1dude blueberries aren’t worth shit if you need to rely on them for anything ever:(. I hate being mean too but I swear unless they’re being mentored and carried hard and you have insane buildcrafting with super strong stuff, they gimp everything and I don’t mean to be mean but if you’re doing anything mildly difficult they do stupid shit and always die for it with no exceptions… I’m sorry man but if you have a shit loadout, shit armor, and shit for brains too please just turn the game off and go because you refuse to GET GOOD.
Bruh, tagman talking like he day 1'd caretaker
The seasonal mod that generates ammo with elemental orbs make both heavy and special ammo pretty consistently. I'd say it's a must have mod. Teams will definitely be using it on day 1
I guess that's why it's disabled
I think this should not apply to Trace Rifles. Using a Trace Rifle with a primary feels so weak/out of place, this will effectively kill Traces unless you're using Cenotaph.
I honestly feel that they should make trace rifles into primary ammo weapons, they just don’t feel like they belong in the special ammo category to me.
@daskrieg3057 that would mean infinite ammo for Ager's Scepter and The Navigator. No way Bungo is allowing that. It would mean the immediate return of primary ammo pickups.
@@WhtCrstlJudgmntDrgn that's true, I don't need them to be primary, but they only feel useful when they're played as Primary weapons. Problem is, playing without Heavy Ammo scavenger or without orb generation to fit a special ammo scavenger (which we don't know how effective it is on double specials) feels awful. That's bad design.
@WhtCrstlJudgmntDrgn bungie does have the capability of making exotics have a different ammo type from their legendary weapon type counterparts. Whisper, tractor, fighting lion to name a few. It is possible, they can just make those still take special
@@bonez994 oh, I agree with you. One of my favorite weapons is Lorentz Driver, but considering the effects of those two weapons on particular and the recent push they made to make trace rifles viable (then effectively tell us to not use them this season), makes me doubt their decision making abilities.
Note that his recommendations at the end started to sound like a team comp that wouldn't look too out of place in an mmo setting: main ad-clearers tasked to generate ammo with finder/scouts with a member with an ammo generating exotic to guarantee drops where applicable. Leaving only 2 or 3 with double specials (probably as main dpsers).
It does for sure. They just have to find a way to encourage it and reward that type of team work. They have scratched the surface of teamwork throughout destiny’s history but never really got it ironed out. This could be the start of it. I always enjoyed support roles in mmos and would love to see destiny move more towards the classical roles in other mmos.
@420bob1493 finally! Some one gets it! I've been clocking onto the changes they've made for the past couple of expansions and made my builds to fit into a role as part of a larger team. Tank, healer, monk, ranger, black mage, scout... it can be done. Each build on their own are powerful in their own right but I know if they were in a team and everybody played to their role, it would easily be the most powerful and well rounded team possible.
@@VRGUILEIn terms of raids and dungeons though, it's also the same as MMOs, always go for the option that maximizes dps with the bare minimum for survivability.
Is it an overreaction to say that trace rifles seem like they got an indirect nerf from this? They play so much like a primary yet there doesn’t seem to be any real point to run them over an actual primary ammo weapon now. I get there’s situational utility in different encounters but just speaking to them filling the primary weapon role.
yeah traces are useless now unless they bring back overload trace but even still there are way better ways to stun overloads.
Right in time for me to get my last hollow denial…😢
@@colincampbell465traces are still good when you need to operate symbols/switches and stuff (most ammo efficient special by a country mile) and don’t want to use a primary with ass dmg output
The main reason im still using them is that they can act as ad clear weapons while storing special ammo. When DPS starts i can switch to a damage special weapon allowing me to be able to ad clear and use my full damage rotation no matter what
Trace rifts did get nerfed through this, but with how legendary primaries feel rn( ie, throwing wet tissue paper) if u can't run a exotic primary (say u on ghorn/tractor) it'll still much better.
From what bungie has said; double special should work the same way a primary does in generating a natural heavy brick. The reason it was so nice is that you could actually have a decent amount of heavy for a second phase of a boss as it was totally random if I anywhere between 0-half...
If it works the same as primaries then why so ammo finder mods not work with it and why don’t we have infinite ammo
So the answer is yes, thank you!
@Telesto_Timelost Finders supposedly work because finder mods are designed to work with weapons, not abilities.
@@Wofulrumble4893 yeah and people liked it before because the majority of the builds in destiny 2 are ability based.
I definitely think they went a little overboard, while it definitely needed a nerf the global heavy drops should’ve slightly increased. Can’t tell you how many gms or raid encounters where the only heavy I get is the starting ammo or a I get a single brick (while double special was still effective I just wasn’t using 2 specials). A slight global buff would’ve made the situation a little less drastic as now heavy is about as rare as exotic engrams 💀💀
The one thing I liked about double special wasn’t the large amounts of heavy, it was the large amount of special I’d make. My builds are usually ability-focused as well, so if I needed some special ammo for my trace rifle etc, I’d just swap to my heavy and throw some grenades or whatnot. Now that stuff is ruined and I basically have no reason to every run a trace rifle again, as it was used more as a primary on builds like ones with Gyrfalcon or Contraverse Hold more than anything. Yeah, I guess I have a reason to pull out primaries again, but running two more useful specials felt really good. I also didn’t always need the heavy unless I met a really beefy target anyways.
One criminally underrated build I've been running around with recently is running around as a strand Titan with feedback fence and stacks on stacks. All I do is melee an enemy twice either with a glaive or melee. And immediately I'm at four stacks. Then all I do is use the special ammo finisher to consume all of those charges on the weakened enemy. Then punch another enemy and repeat. And if they melee back. It nukes the room and with both woven mail and the new aspect war banner at Max stack. I have the survivability to be able to face tank a lot of damage especially with a glaive for shielding because even when I am shielding and a melee enemy hits me. It still will proc the feedback fences. It gives me nearly permanent up time and in the fight with special ammo.
Problem is you have to wear triangles for arms
This indirectly nerfed stasis builds with weapons such as Ager's Scepter since not only is the main reason to even use any trace rifle now removed but in comparison to other build like sunbracers warlock or assassins cowl arc hunter which mostly use abilities anyway, stasis barely has any damage and really relies on special/power weapons to kill things. So much for wanting to make the game more weapon focused XD
All the actually powerful builds will still run sniper + gl or similar variations while killing everything with grenades/melees using barely any ammo. Only the builds with rather little intrinisc ability-damage will be heavily impacted by this change.
Hoping double special finds a way to come back, desperately
I definitely think double special needed a nerf. But IMO the special ammo economy needed a nerf, not the heavy lol
@@gmeinersYTbungie hates when their game is fun
@@CarpetFTWdouble special was so boring after awhile, but not using it felt like intentionally throwing, it needed to go
Doesn’t need to come back.
@@gmeinersYTnerf lol stop its a casual game. "nerf" ah yes cuz primaries are sooooo good.
Buddy...that information was very thorough and helpful...but seriously whoever did that thumbnail...it may be time to give them a raise
Honestly, I don’t know why heavy drops isn’t just RNG, with the odds increasing after a certain point.
Like killing red bars grant a 5% chance to drop heavy up to whatever number of kills, and then if no heavy drops at that point then the odds increase.
Take a look at everyone who pray to RNGesus and still don't have vex and ask them if they want to pray to him again like it's a gatcha game for the means to even beat atheon.
It already is RNG, but there's a safe net. If after X amount of kills nothing dropped then here's a finder brick (if you have a heavy finder mod). Do you hate safe nets for ammo or what?
@@ik-y he wants to have heavy ammo all the time as a crutch
Double specials are still alive. If used correctly. One weapon has to be for adclear and have good ammo economy and second one must be for fat targets. It is still potent, just not musthave. But exotic primaries are stronger then ever now.
While yes, you can still run double special, but why most primaries are just as capable ad clear weapons making double ammo management the only difference with no benefit. I loved double special, so it hurt to run primaries again, but there is literally 0 reason to run double special
@@Opetox actually it is not hurting you in any way. As I said, exotic primaries are very good and hand cannons in general are quiet potent.
@@Sargatasits still a whole lot of kills for maybe a chance at some form of heavy brick. and while primaries are "ok" at best they arent reliable since anything past "Hero" difficulty takes about 4 Hand-Canon shots to kill still.
@@Opetoxspecials are just better, primarys (exept outlier exotics) are always worse than specials, and the heavy economy is the same.
@@hypernebula8711 I don't know what game you're playing to believe primaries aren't doing enough damage in master level content to kill anything in less than half a mag (outside of the legitimately weak options). Go figure, the weapons that trade unlimited ammo for more damage kill things faster?
Am I understanding something wrong or did he say 2-3 RESERVE mods are the only way to get 2-3 rockets? Since when do reserve mods cause you to pick up more ammo arent they just suppose to make u hold more?
Appreciate the analysis - I have a few general loadouts for raiding, one of which is simply "add clear and make ammo". Already had Aeons, scav, double heavy finder, exotic primary - after this, I've added double reserves and double heavy scout to the mix, downgrading to single heavy finder. Will see how it goes over S22.
Been running a Discord/Hatchling pressurized precision fusion, erianas vow, and a circular logic with envious assassin/hatchling on a strand build.
Discord basically gives you infinite ammo for 7 seconds after getting a kill with another weapon.
I think hatchling/threadling kills are counting towards these new counters.
They really really really want our only loadout to be exotic primary and legendary special
I miss orange bars always dropping heavy when killed :(
Such a great video - this must've taken forever to test so thoroughly!
Getting rid of Juggler and killing double special is how they make us use more reserve and scavenger mods.
Ah yes indeed, time to shoehorn my space wizard into not being a space wizard anymore.
If all these ammo mods were utter dogshit requiring every other ammo mod to be good then maybe I'd consider them usable.
If a scavenger mod is absolutely necessary to make ammo finders worth taking. Then there is a problem with the ammo finder.
Why should I drop ashes to assets or an orb siphon mod AND a surge or orb pickup mod in order to be able to get a usable amount of heavy for anything that isn't a machine gun.
# 2 things to take note
1. Heavy drop rates
- Base: 1 brick/83.5 kills
- e.g., using Abilities/Heavy
- Special: per ~76 kills
- Primary: per 20 kills
- Exotic Primary: per 17 kills
2. Finder & Scout
- Finder & Scout mods do not drop more bricks. They cause dropped bricks to give more ammo
- Stacks with Scavenger
- Finder mods cause dropped bricks to give more ammo **only to the user**
- Scout mods cause dropped bricks to give more ammo **only to allies**
- In a team, Scout would be better since it benefits 2-5 people rather than just 1
# Given the above, to maximize heavy ammo:
1. Select 2 fireteam members who are on ad clear
- 2 so they can feed off each other's Scout bricks
2. Those 2 members will use:
- Exotic Primary
- 2 Scout mods
3. Everyone on the fireteam (including those 2) can optionally run:
- 1+ Finder mods
- Scavenger mod
But where do ability kills fit into the formula? Do they increment the counters based on whats in hand? Do they not benefit from finders at all?
I'm unsure about the finders but when I was using double special pre-nerf I did notice that abilities would generate ammo based on what was in hand every time, so I would assume they increment the counters accordingly as well.
Fact of the matter is Bungie nerfed double special so Scavenger mods wouldn't feel completely useless since they were adding reduced scavenger mod cost to their seasonal artifact.
do you need to land the kill with the exotic primary or just have it out?
edit: just tested myself. looks like you need to at least deal damage with the exotic
In my experience you just need to have it in-hand, so ability-based builds shouldn't suffer too much from the ammo economy shift
Great info man, thank you for doing all the testing. You rock!
So I am curious. You used weapons here to generate the heavy bricks but how does it work with abilities. Titan's clear rooms with their fists and arc hunter can do the same, as well as sunbracer warlocks. So do those all count as non exotic primaries? Or would they count as maybe special. I need to do some testing of my own.
Ability kills do not count towards generating ammo unfortunately
@reedwojo7858 they do and they dont because if you watch like any old solos of ghosts youd notice the room was flooded even with them never shooting a gun
@@btr1011 yeah exactly this, I literally streamed a solo flawless Monday night before the patch and I had almost 50 bricks of heavy at one point during EKthar
@@btr1011I havent done a solo dungeon since the reset, but the old ones were usually running double special, so how about now? Also solo you are getting all of the kills, in a team setting you are getting a fraction of them so no single player may get enough to generate.
I know this wasn't the video's focus, but does holding different weapons while getting ability kills affect the drops of special and heavy bricks?
Holy W thumbnail
Wait did special ammo drops themselves get nerfed? Or just heavy? I haven’t been reading much on twabs.
Essentially both. But you can still get tons of heavy ammo w/ special finishers
I’ve still glued to double special since the start of the season and haven’t had any issues
Never watched one of ur vids, this was a good one props dude
What about special exotics? Do those also have increased drop rates over apraxia’s ammo legendaries the way exotic primaries have improved rates over legendary primaries?
Man I am struggling. I have been crunching double special for months now and now I am back using a primary and it’s honestly hindering my enjoyment. I guess I’ll just use exotic primary now
This nerf outlines what has been a problem since the 40% damage buff to exotic primaries. Legendary primaries are absolutely useless
Try an exotic handcanon, they hit like a truck. Maven has a video review of them if you wanted tips.
It’s truly awful to use a non-Exotic primary weapon in _any_ moderately challenging content. They just. Aren’t. Lethal. There’s no role for them in the sandbox. Endgame PvE requires you to hit _hard_ or essentially die. You don’t have time to plink single targets down with 75% of your primary’s magazine while half a dozen others are swarming you. They just feel absolutely useless.
@@stevescruby1343 yeah I’ve gone back to Osteo or sunshot if I’m on solar. Ammo still sucks but it is what it is. If I play with friends they all have exotic primary and scouts on so it’s ok
As a warlock, i just feel so starved for ammo all the time. I want to run sunbracers, but doing so actively hurts me because i cannot generate ammo since im not getting primary kills. Also, does anyone else feel like heavy ammo finder does nothing? I can be slaying out with a handcannon and just get no ammo.
So are you able to generate more or equal heavy with a exotics primary with like a hunter combo melee or titan hammer bonk build?
I already miss double special, up until recently I was stuck in this minset of always having an exotic primary all the time, and heavy weapons are reserved only for boss dps.
Double special opened up the use of exotic specials, machine guns grenade launchers and linears, as well as really giving value to lead from gold.
And finder bricks suck. The show up too little and give too little. They also cut you out of being able to generate super energy or orbs.
Real shame.
You basically have to rely on your teammates if you want to use x2 spec. And no way is that going well as a solo player.
To be honest double specials were fun af. Like using Forbearence to electrocute red bars and using riptide to kill yellow bars and commemoration to do heavy damage. Using non-exotic primaries feels so weak and un-fun now. Double Special made you feel like a war machine, a violence craving guardian. Man I tried my usual double special loadout, and it hardly creates a heavy brick in a strike. I miss it already.
Now I had to replace my favourite legendary weapon Forbearance with Sunshot (since it got a big buff and does the ad clear job). Bungie either keeps such fun things or instead of reducing the fun part takes it out entirely from the equation.
I remember that by holding primary or heavy in double special loadout, you were able to get more special drops. Did they nerf this too or did they only touch heavy when holding spexial in double special loadout?
They only nerfed the heavy drops from double special
“You use double special because you want heavy ammo, i use double special because I run triple shotgun, we are not the same”
Same with fusions but less and
Pretty soon if these perks pools line up i might be retrying triple sniper soon 👀 discord is wonderful
How does "Juggler produce more heavy weapons ammo with double special and less with mixed one if you're saying that "Juggler" reduces drops for _currently equipped_ weapon? Do you magically run with heavy weapons ablze much more if you have mixed load out?
I think you don't understand how it really works. It is better to check that type of things before making statements.
Does Shoot-to-Loot take mods into account as far as amount of ammo picked up? I use StL a lot but I always feel like it's not giving me much super when I shoot Orbs (vs running over them) so IDK if it's necessarily the same as running over bricks either
The amounts given for orbs and bricks should be the same with StL unless it's bugged out somehow
Do we know if there is a cool down on heavy ammo generation related to picking up heavy ammo? It's interesting to me that there would be variance in the real drops generated but I must look into the heavy ammo phases
do you have to get a kill with the primary or just hold it?
For finders, you need weapon kills. Abilities will not proc it (but presumably, getting ability kills have an indeterminate chance of generating ammo in general, afaik)
ty for all the testing
What about Trace Rifles? I like to run a blinding gl and LMG with Wavesplitter. Does Wavesplitter act like an exotic primary?
No they don't
ON sunbracers, synthos, arc hunter, and other ability heavy builds. Definitely yes. Your ability is your primary
On raid damage rotations, yes because of special finisher and an encounter should be enough phases to have a steady flow of heavy and special
On weapon heavy builds and longer, drawn out activities with challenging enemy ... Maybe not
This seriously cannot be stressed and is the answer. Using the"4th slot/gun" and having a reliable ability loadout setup across classes you can incorporate is massive for a situation when you really need to be on top of your ammo tally and to preserve some bricks. In my opinion it is one of the most satisfying feelings and a very good factor at higher skilled PVE mastery. I myself have long been a fan of the PVE gunpowder gamble build with Young Ahamkara Spine because the amount you can spam gamble bundles is absurd.
Conventionally harder higher difficulty content that's loadout locked , ehhh its where your options get limited and not entirely worth leaning so hard into double special, but still technically possible.
Day 1 raid, assuming not really much has changed even with the info we got in twab today for Crota, I would say you could still very much pull it off as it's not like contest stuff are as chunky as other things. We've only gotten more powerful. When in doubt you can always swap off weapons.
**TL DR** Be the gun.
So will something like solo nez ever be possible again? Put if off last season cause of boredom and now I am wishing I hadn't...
Its apparently still possible with both hunter and warlock the hunter just got double hit so its just more tight
Nerfing double special is proof they nerf out of spite
Double special is genuinely unhealthy for the game.
@@theurbanreanimator7244 it's L I T E R A L L Y not.
@@imcarolean it literally is, if it stayed in content would need to begin to be balanced around double special and the sheer amount of heavy bricks dropped, leaving primaries in the dust completely, this is the same shit that happened with well of radiance, pve still requires balance changes to avoid power creep
@@theurbanreanimator7244 objectively incorrect but keep up the good work. I'm sure Bungie loves you
@@imcarolean"Literally" "Objectively" aight
I have only one question. Why do we start lower end activities with our reserves not being full?
I think it was just an oversight and we start at like a mid level reserve count. Then in harder content it's probably just to make things easier.
Especially in the case of something like master VOG w/ no rally. Having low ammo would make that much harder for people to open the vault door.
So basically just run an Exotic Primary, use a singel Finder + Scout and use a single Scavenger during the Mechanics phase of an Encounter and Switch to surges for DPS to get the easiest roi for Rocket ammo.
If Machineguns are used I can see myself using multiple Scouts, though I 100% won't go for the chance of a 3 Ammo pickup in Rocket scenarios, I'd rather have Ashes to Assets etc. to boost my neutral game, since getting 17 kills for a brick really aint that big of a deal. If everyone in your Fireteam (in a Raid setting) simply get 17 kills each, you'll produce an effective 12 Rocket ammo either way.
Why tf would i take off my izanagi for a shit primary that will struggle against orange bars
The thumbnail is fucking cool
So, does this mean we can bring back the Aeon Rat King meta?
Id probably do ceno aeon but sure
No one will run ammo scout for the team, most people don`t equip weapon surge mods, what even to say about a chance to create ammo for FLG players.
Do finders work when getting kills with abilities?
Nope. That’s why this change is shit
Awesome analysis thanks
no
the increased heavy drops have never been the main reason to run double special, they were only an added bonus
the potency of double special for damage output and add clear remains the same
In every dps meta since vow your special are just catalyst for the heavy because other gimics outshine special for damage
Precision kills with anything primary has always boosted heavy drop rate
Double special while using ability builds like sunbracers doesn’t feel any different to me than before the nerf. Because I can just throw a grenade at someone’s face instead of laying on the trigger till I’m out of special. Just have purple and green bricks all over the floor till I need it.
very informative and clear, thanks :)
No.
Edit: Not a nerf as you can just put on ammo finders. It is removed. As for the bricks, you can make a minimum of 0 kills (orbs have chance as well as engrams and aoe damage from environment). Realistically you can just kill enemies with grenades for drops. Increased rate.
Have no sources to link this.
Do not care to look for it.
What’s the solution for solo players? I feel like everything is targeted at teams and multiple people running finder/scav mods for ammo. All of friends were smart enough to quit 😂
No idea why they nerfed this, It's just funny it happens to happen after all the speed runs or solo content got posted in the last 2 seasons. Why so solo players always get targeted lol
8 minutes of explaining it rather than just saying if it's worth running double special from the start
I still play every day with double specials... i still get lots of heavy and special drops and still get special ammo back in my mag when i get out of ammo. I dont really notice a difference tbh.
Really?
To add to this all. Rockets are no longer the only DPS option. Their are actual choices you have to make now in regards to damage loadout. A rotation laodout without a rocket may be better for ammo needs and multi role usage. GL’s now are back on the menu. The reason for this is that they maybe changed something with how pack round projectiles interact with with a target. They now explode in proximity to a target not IN a target. The projectiles may have been passing through targets and not exploding right away causing slightly more damage. As of right now, gally boosted rockets only is not the best DPS wise, nor are rotations that rely on gally boosted rocket damage.
Im fairly certain wolfpack rockets is best dps, but not indisputable like it was
@@masonwillms2542yeah, Wolfpack rockets is still the best in most situations, but there are now many options that are at least competitive
@@masonwillms2542 wolfpack rockets got nerfed. No longer the best option.
@@pongu6120 ok coming from the spped running community rockets are still the best with ghorn the difference is the gap between them and say gls and linears is much smaller honestly even tlord looking comparable now
Does exotic special weapons have an effect on how effective finders are? Running Prometheus lens and coldheart is a mainstay for me
Goatmeiners delivering the real questions!
I expect Bungie will have to become more generous w/ ammo drops. The stats you presented can become a problem in several content. Playing w/ loadouts will become more of a requirement until then. It is a pity since ammo MODs eliminates the option for other "more valued" MODs.
You should get more heavy if you have 2 primary. Seems most special weapons are better and more useful than primarys
Generation of an extreme amount of heavy isn't really thay necessary though, how often are you relying on a heavy weapon to kill things that aren't bosses?
Primary weapons are more than capable of taking down anything from red bars to champions.
Dealing with an overload? Use monarque.
Dealing with barrier champions? Wish ender
And for unstoppables? Malfeasance.
And each option can still do wonders against all other types of enemies.
You don't need heavy for anything other than boss dps and you don't need special period unless you really want to kill things extremely quickly or struggle with surviving
A raid is literally dropping in a few days
Thanks for doing all this testing so we don’t have to! 🙏❤️
No, it's dead, if using double special means your team have to forget all mods apart from ammo mods for you, then yes double special is dead
VERY good video. Doing the Lords work out here.
It really feels like bungie doesnt want us to use heavy weapons unless we heavily spec into specifically getting the ammo for it.
Destiny is an mmo-lite. If you want your character to do a thing, you've got to build for it. This ain't call of duty mate
They don't want it to be easy to have infinite heavy ammo. And neither do I... if they have to design around infinite heavy ammo, then future heavy weapons will be meh to compensate. Heavy and special are meant to be situational. It would be lame to play with a bunch of xenophage spammers, just one tapping everything.
Using heavy weapons is fun. Fun means less play time. Fun get removed
If you can guarantee everything in the game, like having heavy ammo all the time you’ve just made the game boring on top of the powercreep we already have
rest in peace double specials 😔🙏. Trace rifle usage will drop to 0% now.
Time to show the good ol calus minitool some love again
That thumbnail kinda clean tho
That’s cool my man Kirby made it to the trio 🎉
That fact that we even have to worry about ammo consumption at all means it's dead.
Osteo Striga seems like the moves this season
And future seasons
I always use double special so using one primary it feels SOOOOOOOO bad, like literally nothing drops, thank you for the data though
double special was so much better for variety. Now we're all going to be forced into using all helmet energy for heavy drops, and bungie is going to take that data and say "this is overused, and needs to be nerfed". With double special, you were free to use your helmet energy for whatever other mods.
to me, the tl;dw here is: solo [esp lost sector] dbl spl is dead, BUT raid dbl spl isnt w smart mod distribution
Pretty much yeah. You just need to be much more aware of your ammo generation sources now.
The irony is that because exotic primaries do so much more damage than legendary primaries, there is no conceivable reason to run anything BUT an exotic primary. Double special gave you an alternative - skip the primary, and use an exotic special or exotic heavy.
I disagree, legendary primaries feel really good now, especially after the massive hand cannon buff. My Fatebringer feels like it hits like a freight train.
@@gavo7911 exotics still do more damage, and if I have a main damage weapon, I’d rather pick the version with 40% extra damage.
@@FaizaanNaseem-ub8rvand what does this have to do with legendaries still being viable lol 🥱😂
@@thetoolie5917 the fact that they’re not lmao 🥱 😂
Every 83 kills? Huh.. Wonder why in every strike that I have less then 83 kills I still get 15 bricks.
Where were you when double special was kill
I was eating dorito when it happen and friend call me
"double special is kill"
"no"
Who needs ammo when you can ad clear with punchs and then hit a boss harder than a rocket with a punch
Double special is what made the game fun for me again… GG
Boooo, god i really dont get bungie, they really couldn't find a better way then to just nuke the playstyle, double special was so fun and a great yse of the free flowing loadout system they added, so why destroy it
Why do people as if double specials is dead but not if double primary is dead
So what I took from this Video is that im more or less for es to play with the totally ballanced Malfeasance to provides heavy ammo *laughs in his Lucky Pants*:)
Good video
So, what you're saying is weapons with "Lead from Gold" for DPS strats on double special will be really good. LOL.
Nah, lead from gold gives special on heavy pickups. So that perk will be essentially much worse now
@@gmeinersYT Add clear with exotic primary to make all the bricks you show. Switch to DPS loadout of double special and heavy. IF the two double specials have "Lead from Gold", they too have max ammo. Switch back to exotic primary to clear ads again after DPS. I think you misunderstood my comment as it wasn't REALLY formulated properly and easily misconstrued.
I'll just have to abuse my brain dead ability focused builds more I suppose.
1:23 Whats that shader you've used?
Nectar Dynamo (only looks that good on the duality dungeon weapons tho)
@@gmeinersYT thank you
Okay chat, he said "yes and no", tell me chat... what's the truth? Show me the ways.
**********PSA: The game will not let you have 0 ammo in all 3 slots it will give you ammo********
You DON'T need to worry about ammo drops if running double special. The game GIVES ammo if you are out 😮💨😮💨😮💨😮💨 takes literally 3 seconds and you will get like 1/4 ammo to both your specials and if there is heavy ammo on the ground you get that too.
It's soooo frustrating no one mentions this when there are people who want to run double special but worry about ammo. It's the most broken mechanic in the game.
Its not the special ammo part of it its the hevey even forbearance takes a good second to get 80 kills for 1 rocket yes the game will never let you be 0 but it doesn't change the fact of your hevey economy suffers and sadly most the double special loadouts reli on the power for bosses
@btr1011 what content are you talking about? Raids you have banners so should always have full heavy. In gms it's rng without the exotics but honestly even going into the boss room with little to no heavy isn't that big of a deal, and sometimes you are full heavy and had the benefit of using weapons that actually slay adds all the way there.
Eheee heee i am running double specials ....giving tone of heavy drops you just have to know one thing wich obviously i am not going to tell to get nerfed may whoever finds it not tell to his team too having nice days 🌚🤪🤪
At least for me, yes double specials is definitely dead. I hate running ammo finder and scout mods. The brick they generate is crap.
They really need to revisit their ammo formula cuz relying on the artifact and mods for an Integral part of the game (ammo) is shit game design. Mods and perks should be a bonus not mandatory 🙄
Well in reality they do have an answer they gave 2 of them ceno and aeons where only 1 or 2 people need to forgo a exotic durring down time to gen hevey