The Romans didn't give their crucifixion victims a proper burial. They left them up on the crucifix to rot, then threw what was left in the garbage when the body fell off the crucifix on its own. Assuming that Jesus existed and was crucified, why would the Romans have made an exception for this one guy they didn't believe was anything special? There's your problem with the empty tomb narrative. Even if the tomb exists, even if Jesus as a historical figure existed, and even if the tomb was meant for Jesus, he would never have been buried there.
what's more : crucifictions were executed to quell riotous behaviour that always happend during these pilgramic holydays. And an empty cross doesn't impress anybody. It was more common practice to have the corpse rotting on it for a long time and I don't think a governor like Pontius Pilate gave a hood about Jewish sentiment.
@@kamion53 Yeah, the whole point of crucifixion was so that Romans could point to it and say "You step out of line, you get this horrifically painful and humiliating death over the course of hours of pure agony and have your corpse left to rot on the crucifix to disgrace the corpse as well". Doesn't make sense they'd suddenly change their traditions because some guy that was part of the group they are trying to get control back over asked nicely, even if bribery was involved, as this was seen as the pinnacle of punishment, not the kind of thing they'd take lightly.
@@meloncholy7515 Except that still makes no sense, because a punishment like this to quell a possible rebellion, which would be overseen by high ranking roman officers, would be followed strictly to code because of how big of a deal it was, especially when considering the context. Even then, it would take an overwhelming amount of bribery for this to happen considering just how many moving parts are involved, especially when you consider how centurions and roman politicians are typically well paid already. What, did they bribe the centurions watching the corpse, the roman officials running the whole thing, all the citizens that would notice, all the people wanting jesus crucified that would take offense to it, etc without a single person mentioning it or objecting to it?
People lying.... I know a woman from, I think Ghana. Anyway, she is Christian, and married a white guy and now lives in the states. She comes from a small village in Ghana. Very few people have ever left on big trips. Even fewer have been on an airplane. Yet there were a few. She told me that these people would come back with stories about the "people who lived in the clouds" they saw when the flew on a plane. They talked about the "roads" in the sky, the "houses" they saw, etc. When she finally traveled on a plane, she realized these were all lies. All made up stories. These people had made up this to either show off, or to go along with the narrative, or who knows? But people lie ALL the TIME!
Look down out of a plane window through a broken cloud when flying over a populated area - OMG clouds, roads and houses, those people must live IN the clouds. I don't see this a a completely made up lie, merely an inexperienced flyer describing what they saw.
It really is a strange claim. And frustrating when presented as a "minimal fact". It's no different than claiming Hercules's bones were absent from His funeral pyre.
I'm an Atheist who just started reading the Bible for the first time. The impression I get, is these are an ancient people that lack an understanding of their environment and are so apt and willing to believe supernatural claims and are desperate for a Messiah. In the book of John, chapter 1, Jesus even tells one of John the Baptist's disciples that they believe he is the messiah before they saw any of his miracles, which kind of came off mockingly in my opinion.
@@captainnarwhal1064 Of course not, he's a c0-host. Different position, different title. Fact-checkers are more of a media thing like with Forbes. _________________________ I see FV as a propaganda Evangelist
@@raysalmon6566 Well that is a statement about something that I never said. Are you in the wrong thread or do you have problems comprehending the written word because if it's the first, you're not making any sense and if it's the latter, I can't help you.
It is just frustrating that a billion people blindly assume this STORY is true.... Actually there are about 4 different versions of the story in the same book! contradicting.... by anonymous authors. And besides, we all know Sauron is real, i read it in a book.....
@humperdoosaves497 the gospels do NOT contradict each other on the Death, Burial or Resurrection of Jesus. I bet if you read each account with an eye for all the marvelous details provided, you will be able to figure that out for yourself. The fact that you and other atheists keep parroting that falsehood is so surprising - How can you also believe the Bible was thought up by mere men to 'control' others or for some other nefarious reason and at the same time believe the gospel accounts contradict?
@@wwlib5390 lol. what were the last words of jesus again? 4 different versions. or the number of staffs the disciples had to carry? 3 different versions also, what tomb? what jesus? what eyewitnesses? written 70 to 400 years after the 'facts'...... it is impossible to have spoken to Actual witnesses, let alone find fhem, and even then, sccounts from people which heard them from other people, and other people, changing all the time, and no way to check if its even real.... anyone taking these stories seriously is an idiot.
The fun thing is, they don't conflict! They only all have different last words of jesus, different outcomes for Judas, different pilate interviews, different people that supposedly found jesus first after resurrecting, different people that the 'firsts' went and told (if anyone), different events after the resurrection, but absolutely no conflictions whatsoever! The gospels also don't have conflicting jesus origin stories involving the most illogical form of census ever that also wasn't recorded by anyone else either! It's also not like even if they didn't conflict, that they totally wouldn't just amount to more claims instead of evidence! INB4 someone tells me I haven't read the bible despite having done so cover to cover multiple times.
I have always thought that it was ridiculous that Jesus had to get out of town ASAP. How about sticking around for a few months and create thousands of witnesses? Give a few speeches, sign some autographs. Especially when the claimed event is so essential to Christianity, it's inexcusable to leave the door open.
@@jamesyoung1022 I also read in other holy writings that when Jesus rose, others started rising from their grave and walking around. Maybe Jesus didn't like those stealing his thunder and making coming back from the dead seem as no big deal.
@@david-dj8or "that when Jesus rose, others started rising from their grave" Maybe there were a few people that weren't dead yet... took them down too early and they recovered...
It doesn’t matter why they would lie about it. What matters is if we should believe it, and there is no reason or evidence to suggest that we should. Their motivations in writing it are a moot point.
I can't fathom how dumb the empty tomb argument is. So my fridge is empty. Does that mean 1. I haven't gone to the shop this week 2. My Coca-Cola bottle has risen from the dead and gone to heaven
My biggest issue with the resurrection, it was not that long ago we were putting strings with bells in a casket because we buried people that ended up alive. It is more believable that he was never dead.
All these supernatural events like resurrections, flying wing horses, talking donkeys and snakes, 900 year old people, flying angels, virgin births, parting of the seas, global floods, Ken Ham's arks etc, all happened in ancient times. However in modern times like now with all our know how, technology, no supernatural things happen now.
We have absolutely no way of knowing whether they do or not happen as the MSM are bought and paid for liars for the establishment. They are pushing their alien agenda heavily now, as Tucker Carlson pointed out in his recent Twitter video broadcast, which has more than 90 million views by now I expect. He also had much to say about the continual deceptions and lies of the MSM. Fox News are no doubt wishing they had not got rid of him by now as at least when he was working for them they could censor and control what he said somewhat, but now he has free reign to tell the truth about them it is quite a different matter. Maybe they are already planning on silencing him. Jimmy Dore is another truth teller that the establishment would like to silence if they could. He has a huge following also though.
@@gemganuhay661Tucker Carlson has never said an honest word in his life. He's a white supremacist nutjob who has admitted in court that no reasonable person should believe a word coming out of his mouth.
@@highpriestoftheflyingspagh8071 Virtually every broadcaster on MSM over the past few years has been caught lying also. So What? He is not on MSM anymore so can speak the truth.
And they weren't put into a nice neat tomb and given last rites, either. They were unceremoniously dumped into a mass grave, a garbage pile, or a river.
The fact is, this is a 2000 plus year old story we have no idea who wrote what. Take things from today for example. How many people have seen the living Elvis walking around? Or Tupac? How many people have died for their beliefs? I mean an entire massove group of people died at James town. We know it's specially with social media how gullible human beings are even today. I mean I see posts every single day on Facebook or Instagram or ticktok where someone is being blatantly sarcastic and 50% of the people are completely oblivious to the sarcasm and 40% of the people are coming on too proudly announced that they were a detective and figured out that this wasn't real it was a joke and sarcastic when it should be no real honor to have figured that out. It was completely obvious. So we know that human beings are gullible by nature. It's a demonstrable fact. Now two thousand years ago we had tons of unanswered questions we didn't know probably ninety-nine percent of the stuff that we know today. So I could see how people could easily be fooled and die for a belief. Not to mention that we have also seen stories change and people's tails exaggerated over the years as well. A great example is the babe Ruth called shot homerun. There is video and babe himself admitted that he wasn't calling his shot. But that legend has grown to massive heights over the years. He was pointing at the other team and talking shit. I mean legends that have grown from real stories that were much less impressive. You take all these factors in and it baffles my mind that people think a 2000-year old book about supernatural claims is even remotely convincing. I mean it could have easily been a con man that fooled hundreds of people which is extremely easy to do and then over the decades his story grew and grew and grew and expanded, or he could have been a normal human being but a really good person that was trying to spread love and over the years his story grew and grew and grew and grew. I mean hell it could have been an L Ron Hubbard type situation where the story started out from complete and total bullshit it was a completely fake story that somehow got spread and elaborated on and that's where we sit today. I mean there are a number of easy explanations that could explain it. And I'm not even saying that it's a myth I'm just saying that people automatically rule that out when it is absolutely a possibility. There are so many non supernatural explanations available I think at this point we have progressed enough as a species with science that we can almost guarantee that the Bible is bullshit. But people by the billions are being indoctrinated from birth and given comfort to the tough questions that we may never have answers to and as long as people are scared of death and scared of saying I don't know and being raised from birth to believe, it's unfortunately not going to go away. Because human beings are gullible. And I see more and more everyday how flawedthe normal human beings epistemology is. Even in subjects that have nothing to do with religion they use the same exact fallacies and poor argumentation that they use with religion which is a harm that I tried to explain to people but until they realize that the arguments and poor evidence that they try to use for their religion isn't good, they will continue to use it in other areas of life. Which is really sad.
Respectfully, more people will read your post if you use paragraph breaks. The goal of a writer should be to make his writing readable. I was an English professor long ago (I'm old), so I want to help people improve their writing. Good luck. Oh, final thought: you write very well.
@@classicsciencefictionhorro1665 I'd like to second this idea. I didn't even bother reading that wall of text, because no matter how well written it might be it'd be a pain to read.
Robert it's very easy to come up with reasons why people would lie about the tomb. They tell the resurrection story, and people aren't buying it. So like al apologists they started making shit up that they thought would be convinving: "no, nut see, he was buried in a tomb, right, and then in the morning his body wasn't there anymore" "How do we know... well... uh... the woman who came in to do the ritual stuff found the tomb empty" "How do we know he wasn't taken out of there? Well they sealed it with a stone. A big one you can't move on your own" "Well yeah, multiple people could've done it, but eh... eh... oh! there were roman guards guarding the tomb!" Other people would just need to buy and repeat it...
@@schrodingerskatze4308 They could be lying, boasting, misremembering, exaggerating etc, they just don't fear the punishment for doing so because death is their ticket to paradise.
TBH, there were no eye witnesses to the space donkey story. There were some eyewitnesses when Muhammad split the moon but that's a sketchy story too. No other cultures spotted the split moon.
You'd think so, but the reality is that people are convinced their religion is true regardless of the nonsense in other religions. People don't apply the same level of rationality to their own religion as they do to others, maybe just don't wanna even contemplate their own religion is nonsense.
I recall that as a young child I put a paper clip in a toilet paper tube. When I removed my hand, it was gone. I thought it had disappeared. The “empty tomb” seems something like that, although an empty tomb is not necessarily a historical fact. Ehrman thinks that Jesus most likely was thrown in a mass grave, because that is what usually happened.
I had something like this a couple years ago. Couldn’t find my black tv remote on my white bed. I shook out the comforter, the sheets and all my pillows. It was not on my bed. I looked on the floor around the perimeter then glanced up to my bed and there it was! Right in the middle of my comforter and pillows! Clearly god did this, he took time out to prank me while ignoring all those starving kids and cancer patients, amen.
@@codyhelms2556 🤣🤣🤣👍 I like that one. Could build a religion off of that that'll make a lot more sense than any of the others. At least we can prove office supply stores exist.
I don't believe that someone who was treated as a criminal would have been given a nice resting place. At best it would have been thrown out in the desert, but more likely it would have been just left there and the birds would have picked on the corpse.
Oh no, the Romans went the extra mile to make sure that they didn't get a proper burial. Armed sentries to ensure the body was not taken down while it was left on the crucifix to rot. Once there wasn't enough soft tissue left to hold the corpse in place, what remained was thrown in the garbage.
Joseph, a rich man, asked Pilate (who was not an enemy of Jesus, but crucified Him out of fear) for the body that he might bury Him. Joseph being a rich man owned a family burial spot (likely his own grave for his future death) and buried Jesus in it. It was exceptional because it was an exceptional circumstance, it’s not very often a crucified carpenters son would have been able to get His hands on such a good spa de for burial. Similarly, the only reason there were guards at the tomb was not because Rome was concerned about the whole Jesus situation, it was the high priests who sent guards to the tomb.
@@jakesmith6268 We all know what your book says, the problem is there's no proof for it and the bible contradicts itself four separate times on how that narrative went. There's no reason to think that there was an empty tomb unless you also think god was dictating a book to Joseph Smith because that's what that book says happened.
@@jakesmith6268So the Romans, who, again, posted armed sentries around crucifixion victims to ensure that they aren't taken down and given a proper burial, saw this really nice tomb and just decided that "sure, you can bury this one random guy?" They just made an exception for Jesus because the tomb was nice, despite the fact that everyone else was specifically denied last rites? You're just making shit up.
@@jakesmith6268 "... It was exceptional because it was an exceptional circumstance...." Why was it exceptional? the crucifiction of a rebelrowser at the time of the year that Jerusalem was rive with riots was more or less standard procedure. Judaism wasn't not monolith in the slightest and knew many variations and variant groups that where willingly to fight each other. by the way Joseph of Arimethea sounds pretty much like Josef ben Mattijahu, ( Flavius Josephus) who did asked the Roman general Titus to release three friends of him from the cross.
What is more plausible. That someone died, was entombed and then rose from the dead days later or that a few disciples, realising that their leader actually died, ruining their beliefs, snuck into the tomb, stole the body then kept that a secret... with everyone else in the cult believing it and becoming convinced of the storied embellished by others.
We have a book about a guy who claims that during a hallucination a ghost told him that unnamed people saw a thing that totally happened, bro. Then we give money to evil men with seven private jets.
There's no such thing as evil men. 𝗔𝗿𝗴𝘂𝗺𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗠𝗼𝗿𝗮𝗹 𝗡𝗶𝗵𝗶𝗹𝗶𝘀𝗺 Premise 1: Atheism rejects all moral claims that rely on gods. Premise 2: Atheism rejects all a priori moral transcendentals. (e.g. Dao, Dharma, Divine Logos) Premise 3: Hume's guillotine refutes all moral claims derived from observable facts. Premise 4: Death/Entropy negates all moral claims derived from consequences. Soon, no one will care what you did. Premise 5: There’s nothing ‘wrong’ with changing or losing interest in one’s values. Value judgements are NOT actually moral claims, but mere opinions or preferences. Premise 6: Moral Nihilism is the only Atheism that is sufficiently rational to reject moral claims. Conclusion: Moral Nihilism is the only rational outlook for Atheism.
@@nealjroberts4050 I didn't shift anything. The comment was that my premises are strawmen. That's a positive claim. The burden of defending the comment is on the one who made it. In what way is each a strawman?
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” ― Epicurus
The idea that the empty tomb story was invented by followers of Jesus to explain how it was that the man they believed was their Messiah had died. Remember, these were apocalyptic believers who thought Jesus was here to work the power of God and set up a kingdom and rule for a thousand years. At some point they had to adopt the belief that Jesus had ascended into heaven or abandon belief in Jesus as the Messiah. As they told the story to others, it would be reasonable for skeptics to reject this claim, and naturally a claim of an empty tomb was introduced, and later a claim of the person who supplied to the tomb when that was challenged. Decades after the fact, someone collected the stories as they were and cleaned it up into a solid narrative. Later gospel writers added more, likely in response to other reasonable criticism and doubt. They even wrote a story about how doubting was bad. Assume it was a cult and followers exaggerated tales and invented facts in response to critical examination. It makes sense this way.
As they say in their own book: Proverbs 14:5. "An honest witness does not deceive, but a false witness pours out lies." Timothy 4:2. "Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.'
My guess is if he had a cultish following, and they were told to eat the last supper as though it was his own body, they ate his body and told everyone the tomb was empty after. Otherwise don't care to think much more about it. Just weird stories written in a weird book that mean nothing anyways. How does any of it help anyone? Most of it is commanding people to stone each other to death.
My guess is that these were rites borrowed from non-Jewish religions or mysteries. Closest to a cultural following in my opinion is that Jesus of Nazareth was just a leader of a gang of ultra conservative hillbillies from the countyside, who loathed the decadensy of big cities like Jerusalem.
I know believers will have myriad excuses about the gospel accounts conflicting, but if the death and resurrection story is the basis of your religion, you kinda expect the accounts to line up a little better than they do.
Indeed. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and getting your story straight is the bare minimum you would expect from a group of disciples of a living god. If you can't supply even ordinary proof, let alone extraordinary, why should I believe you?
I'm wondering why he would have been placed in a tomb in the first place, back in those days when people were crucified weren't their bodies left hanging to rot away & basically be picked clean by vultures ??
Yes. And now you see one of the many problems with the empty tomb narrative. The tomb itself can't be verified to actually exist. Even if it can, there's no evidence of who it was intended for. Even if it was meant for Jesus, we don't know if he was actually there, as that would be a huge departure from how crucifixions were actually handled. Even if Jesus was in the tomb, that isn't evidence that the reason he wasn't there later was because he got up and walked out. And even if he did get up and walk out, that isn't evidence of divinity.
@@scambammer6102 Paul did not need an empty tomb to believe Jesus had resurrected, it seems that his Jesus was more or less on the mythical plane then on the fysical plane.
@@kamion53 that is an unsupported assertion by mythicists cherry-picking Paul's letters to support your desired conclusion. Taken as a whole, Paul's letters indicate he probably believed in a corporeal Jesus.
I was 15 years old in 1972 and my grandfather was stabbed to death while driving a taxi in Wichita Kansas... I had stopped having faith in any deity a couple of years before that, but afterwards, I saw my grandfather numerous times... Each time I tried to follow him and catch him but he vanished... I had no idea there was a term for that.... Then again.... no one gave a shit about the family of a victim back then... so there wasnt any counseling offered, it was just pull up your bootstraps and get back in there.
Grief hallucinations. I am so sorry that you had to live through that. No one should ever have to suffer the violent loss of a loved one, but when you are 15... 😢
@@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2 it caused me to lose all hope and to change my life... my mother didnt like the new me and had the court find me as a wayward child... the judge was a family friend from church... and he gave me 2 options.. Jail for the lsdst year of my juvenile life... or find a branch of the service that will take you without graduating frm school... They forced me into the army to learn a better way to kill... I had been a pacifist since the 1st grade after watching Kennedy get assassinated... but that doesnt matter when the generals need more fodder for their cannons... I eventually quit the army and ended up doing 6 months in the confinement facility (prison) before they kicked me out with a general discharge... the shit changed me and changed my life...
@@drmorqWarrenProject there's a possibility that it was grief hallucinations that formed the origin of the Resurrection story - grief can and has changed the direction of the world, not just your own life. I hope that you eventually pulled it together and got past the messed up start.
@@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2 "Grief hallucinations." Yeah, that makes sense... Years ago, my G/F was killed in a crash... Afterwards, kept thinking I'd seen her in places...
9:30 Christ was also not the first god born of a virgin, or the first to walk on water, or the first to raise the dead, or the first to turn water into wine... Starting to look a lot like a copycat Charlie.
@@christophercastaneda9714 I'm well aware of convicted fraud Joseph Smith. My comment was not a serious one, I know people can write whatever the fuck they want in a book. That's how we got all of our so-called holy texts.
@@skepticofdoom7486 No, because lies involve an intention to deceive the other party. A lie is making a statement you know is false with the intent that the other person believes it to be true.
Why would a god/son of God need to roll the boulder away ? Having omni powers he could surely just have asked Scotty to beam him out ? The whole story stinks, but not of rotting human flesh, but of deceptive fiction.
I mean, he's the son of a god that was too weak to build a fence around the most important tree in his entire garden. Seems like simple tasks are just beyond him.
The unseen resurrection was never particularly impressive. The thing that got me though was the supposed ascension where Jesus ascended up int the sky “to heaven” in front of his followers. There’s almost no detail in the Bible of this incredible event in which Jesus is supposed to have left corporeal Earth. It’s literally like the Simpsons with Poochy suddenly going “my planet needs me” and he’s gone.
The whole jesus stuff isn't impressive. He just "dies" for less than three days, not even a real sacrifice, he lost nothing. And all of his teachings, were done before and more importantly, Jesus didn't explain ANYTHING. ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Yeah... How? Love is a really broad spectrum, and self-love is something, many people struggle with. I expect a bit more from the creator of everything, than that.
@@vertigo4236 Basically if Jesus was able to perform miracles in this natural world then why couldn't he also miracle defeating death/sheol/hades and taking away sins of the world while still being alive? I mean if Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead while he (Jesus) was still alive walking the earth then that miracle did not require him to die and come back 3 days later and then perform the miracle. This would be more of a theological question but what is so special about death? If I'm able to perform miracles (as the son of god) then why would the state of being dead (supposing that's the only way to gain passage to the supernatural realms of heaven/hell fyi Jesus descended to the harrowing hell after his death?) increase my magic powers?? It doesn't make sense. A god that dies is just a show off for that god. Look mortals I can die too! Ain't it neat.
New Bingo Game... 😆 Instead of using the word *Bingo,* we'll be using: _Toxic._ You can arrange the numbers in a 5x5 grid however you like. Here's the fallacies that you'll be using as a reference: 1. Argument from Ignorance: Assuming something is true simply because it hasn't been proven false. 2. False Authority: Believing a claim based on the authority of someone who lacks expertise in that area. 3. Appeal to Tradition: Arguing that something is true or good because it's been done that way for a long time. 4. Hasty Generalization: Drawing a conclusion based on insufficient evidence or a small sample size. 5. Anecdotal Fallacy: Using personal anecdotes as evidence for a general claim. 6. Confirmation Bias: Seeking or interpreting evidence in a way that supports preexisting beliefs. 7. Overgeneralization: Applying a general rule to a specific case where it doesn't hold true. 8. False Consensus Effect: Assuming that one's own beliefs and opinions are more widely held than they actually are. 9. Bandwagon Fallacy: Arguing that something is true or right because many other people believe or do it. 10. Appeal to Popularity: Asserting that something is true because it's widely accepted or popular. 11. Appeal to Belief: Claiming that something is true because many people believe it. 12. Post hoc ergo propter hoc: Assuming that because one event follows another, the first event caused the second. 13. Correlation implies causation: Believing that a correlation between two variables implies a cause-and-effect relationship. 14. Gambler's Fallacy: Assuming that previous independent events can influence the outcome of future events. 15. Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy: Cherry-picking data points that support a particular conclusion while ignoring contradictory evidence. 16. False Dilemma: Presenting only two options when more exist, leading to a simplistic or inaccurate conclusion. 17. Appeal to Ignorance: Arguing that something must be true because it hasn't been proven false, or vice versa. 18. Argument from Personal Incredulity: Rejecting a claim because it's difficult to understand or accept. 19. Argument from Incredulity: Asserting that a claim is false because it seems unbelievable. 20. Appeal to Fear: Using fear or threats to support a claim. 21. Straw Man Fallacy: Misrepresenting or exaggerating an opponent's argument to make it easier to attack. 22. Red Herring: Introducing an irrelevant topic to divert attention from the original issue. 23. Fallacy of Suppressed Evidence: Failing to disclose relevant information that contradicts or weakens an argument. 24. False Attribution: Incorrectly attributing a cause or source to a phenomenon. 25. Illusory Truth Effect: Believing that a statement is true simply because it has been repeated often enough. You can replace the fallacies listed above with a list you prefer.
It's more likely the whole tomb story was made up as fake evidence to sell the resurrection story. The whole thing is incoherent, criminals didn't get put in tombs, roman guards didn't follow Jewish orders, and so on...
@@George89999 Correct. No one knows (except for "God" Lol) the exact location of the tomb. This is an obvious problem because according to the biblical accounts you have several people visiting the tomb (including tomb guards) and reporting back the supposed resurrection. "Somehow" the exact location get's buried in time and later on (as Christianity is made the official religion of the Empire because a lot of theists taken to like this particular religion) resurrects as traditional/legendary burial places for Jesus (one such claim is that it's in some garden). Christians try to downplay this obvious mega embarrassment (well it's outside the city walls close to where Jesus was crucified...somewhere so it's close enough) and say that the exact burial place doesn't matter only the resurrection matters. These theists...sighs playing loosey goosey with epic stuff like this but there is for sure an exact place called heaven (upward) and hell (downward) and an exact God who most definitely exists? I guess god doesn't like gps or something...
@stefandingenouts that's a good point, actually. If Yeshua, the man, was put in a grave, but the soldiers told his followers it was a tomb, then logically, the tomb would be empty since he was never put in it. Combine this with bereavement hallucinations, and the followers made up the resurrection story to comfort themselves.
When I pointed out the fact that the gospels disagree with each other, this is an actual quote from a Christian responding. This will give you an idea of just how deep the cognitive dissidence goes with Christians. "God is not a bad communicator, the reason there are multiple bible translations is very simple; if we only had one translation, it could easily be corrupted. Having multiple translations available, we can compare them and see what the majority says." ~Christian
We've had a fair few people claim that because the accounts differ it makes them more realistic as true accounts. We could say the same about the Cinderella stories!
Bad response, but the reason is actually simple. The gospels were all written from different sources (except for one unknown source), that probably remembered it differently, because they were only humans. But it really doesn't look like the point was to claim that exactly this person found it like this and then this person had exactly this experience with exactly these words. The point was to bring the central points of Christianity across. The best option they saw was to find different sources and put them into one text.
I have no idea why theists think that the empty tomb is such a strong argument. The empty tomb is only evidence for something if you can present a good reason to believe that the story happened as described. If I have to assume that your mythology is true before you can give me a good argument for your mythology being true, then we have a problem.
Regarding motivation to make something up, never underestimate that there are plenty of people who really want to have followers to have influence over. They feel a strong need to be on charge of something, and to have people eat up their words as though they're God's words. We can readily see this effect at work today. That's s even among preachers who don't seem to be after money...'only' power.
I'm a new atheist, so to say, and I was wondering. Why would the Catholic Church allow the different accounts to be included in the Bible? Why wouldn't they get their story straight before publishing the bible?
First of all, why NOT lie about it? We have stories about witnesses from scribes that have vested interest in the matter. Even if we accept that there was an empty tomb, is the most likely explanation a resurrection? I'd say that is the most unlikely explanation possible.
@@stephenolan5539 If it had been written today, it wouldn't become a religion. But as it has been taught through the times it has become one and we're arguing with their ideas rather than what we already know... It's a myth.
@@stephenolan5539 Don't be too sure about what? Scientology is many things but just because the US classifies some sci fi novel as a religion does not make it so.
@@michaelmay5453 Scientologists have infiltrated the FBI, The RCMP, and other organizations. They are very devout believers. They are a major cult and continued to grow after Hubbard died which is unusual for a cult.
Yeah...and? Even Christians agree that the bible isn't a factual report of historic events that 100% happened exactly like this. So, what's your point?
Discover something very important about yourself by pondering one question a day for thirty days. 1. What should I think of those who pretend to know that an undetectable supernatural realm exists that is inhabited by undetectable, all-powerful, immortal beings, some good and some evil, all of them privileged to know the veracity of all things knowable and unknowable? 2. What should I think of those who pretend to know they are intimately familiar with a reality that is undetectable and unknowable, and have an intimate personal relationship with an undetectable good supernatural being that allows them to communicate telepathically with their mentor in the undetectable supernatural realm? 3. What should I think of those who pretend to know that an undetectable good supernatural being has bestowed upon them thousands of unknowable truths, including what it thinks and wants? 4. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings are continuously monitoring and passing righteous judgment upon every human thought and deed? 5. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have ordained them with the pre-eminent ethical moral authority, knowledge, and duty to advise me as to the truth of all unknowable knowledge that good supernatural beings want me to possess? 6. What should I think of those who pretend to know that they are actually immortal supernatural beings temporarily trapped in a mortal body? 7. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable evil supernatural beings are doing their best to deny me access to the unknowable knowledge that good supernatural beings want me to possess? 8. What should I think of those that pretend to know that I deserve to suffer eternal damnation if undetectable evil supernatural beings succeed in deceiving me concerning the existence of the supernatural realm and the unknowable knowledge that good supernatural beings want to impose upon me? 9. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have endowed them with the pre-eminent ethical moral authority, knowledge, and duty to recognize, challenge and condemn anyone who dares to spread a different version of unknowable truth? 10. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to restrict the questions, facts, narratives, and realities, I may entertain? 11. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings are responsible and deserve credit for every good thing that I experience in life? 12. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have informed them that I am responsible and deserve blame for every hardship I suffer in life? 13. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have informed them that if I have not dedicated myself to a life of servitude to undetectable good supernatural beings, it is only because I have chosen a life of servitude to undetectable evil supernatural beings? 14. What should I think of those who pretend to know that it is their righteous duty to visit hate, discrimination, misfortune, hardship, oppression, suffering, and destruction upon those whom their undetectable good supernatural mentors disapprove of? 15. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to assign my gender identity? 16. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to outlaw my sexual preferences? 17. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to condemn my sexual desires and fantasies? 18. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to condemn masturbation? 19. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have granted them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to restrict access to birth control? 20. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to regulate which adults I may or may not associate with, cohabitate with, have sex with, love, and/or marry? 21. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have decreed that men are entitled to subjugate and own women? 22. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to dictate a woman's reproductive choices? 23. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have decreed that, without exception, a fertilized egg, zygote, fetus, or unborn baby is endowed with the pre-eminent domain over a woman's body? 24. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the authority and duty to restrict the teaching of certain scientific theories in public schools? 25. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to ban comprehensive sex education in public schools? 26. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to restrict access to certain genres of books, videos, and other educational materials from public schools, public libraries, bookstores, and the internet? 27. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the authority and duty to ban discussion of social justice issues faced by oppressed groups in public schools? 28. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the authority and duty to ban the teaching of certain aspects of human history in public schools? 29. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to restrict the words and expressions I may or may not use in communications? 30. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable supernatural beings have endowed them with the ability to know that any unknowable thing that can be conceived by their imagination is a knowable truth?
Your questions are all presupposition fallacy, strawman fallacy, or both. They are all burden shifting fallacy and do nothing to prove the existence of a deity.
@@exceptionallyaverage3075 Did I fail to suggest that you ponder one question a day? Is it really a waste of time to ask yourself what you should think of those who pretend to know things that are unknowable?
@@jamesyoung1022 I haven't read a single question you posted. I don't intend to waste time doing so, nor will I waste time answering any of your questions. I would be interested in any evidence you might have for the existence of a god. But be aware, I get to decide what does or does not convince me.
I would say a couple of things. First the idea that ancient people were good at determining death is wrong to start with. People survive all kinds of horrific injuries and may seem dead to an untrained person. Since Jesus was apparently a political figure at the time he may have had sympathisers, even among the Romans, who would have hidden his survival to protect him. Then there is the more obvious idea that an empty tomb only means that a body has been moved, not that the body moved itself. Lastly eyewitness accounts are notoriously errant, especially when confirmation bias is present or memory is tainted by other’s claims. If eyewitnesses are to be believed without doubt then aliens walk among us.
When that whole was written down decades later 1000s of km away, it is extremely practical that the proof of a divine person EXISTED whose body had been killed and to prove its divinity is that he was resurrected - the proof of his existence and divinity is that there is NO evidence. Presenting some EMPTY tomb is enough. No trace of anything is enough. And in a culture where people are buried the probability that there is an empty tomb that has not beed used yet or is one of those tombs that you have cleaned up for reusage is not zero. People were cruzified all the time, so nothing special, Usually thrown into mass graves, so no chance in those times without gene anylysis to identify any specific body in the pile of bones. The resurrected Christ did only appear to a FEW people, who at the time of writing had all died 100s of kms away, and you would have had to walk there for weeks to get to that place. So no one checks. And then comes the story of the 500 risen dead that roam the streets of Jerusalem. THAT is a real sensation seen by thousands! Seeing either half-decomposed bodies crawling through the streets, or people that you know died years ago and must have rotten beyond recognition you now meet and are now better than life - that of hundreds of such stories not a singlle one shall have made it into non-christian reporting, is weird.
Mind you there are absolutely zero contemporary sources for any of that. And the earliest possible sources lived nearly a century after these alleged events supposedly occurred. It’s the biblical telephone game, doesn’t have the credibility of a used car salesman.
So many stories passed on by word of mouth get embellished and I think it has something to do with the teller wanting to make it more interesting, we have all at one time told a friend not to exaggerate, people just like to have good stories to tell.
People will tell a story about something that happened to them yesterday while standing next to someone who was also present for the incident, and change things around either intentionally to make it seem more interesting, or unintentionally because they're misremembering the exact sequence of events or who said what.
The point is not that they said they had witnessed the resurrection but much later someone else said they did. Why propagate the story, that question needs to be viewed through the perspective of the time.
The romans didn't allow their crucifixion victims to be buried. Even if the empty tomb exists, and even if we could prove that it was meant for Jesus, he wouldn't have been buried there. He would have been left on the crucifix to rot, with armed sentries to prevent his body from being taken down, and then when there wasn't enough soft tissue left to hold his body up, his body would have been thrown in the garbage.
Theists that become Atheists usually know the buybull very well. Reading the buybull for the first time was the impetus for the study that led to my atheism.
Literally this week a woman in Ecuador who had wrongly been declared dead was discovered alive when they heard knocking from her coffin during her funeral wake.
Dr Tabor, as I noted in my own vid, had an interesting theory of the Holy Sepulchre tomb being a temporary place for Christ's body which was moved shortly after to the Talpoit tomb. And if it is true that Christ's body was moved within three days from Sepulchre to another tomb and that tomb is legitimate, then that is the end of Christianity. The Christian apologists largely take the Holy Sepulchre tomb as the tomb of Christ when really it is just a possibility that isn't a known and confirmed truth at all. And we have to remember that the Holy Sepulchre tomb was said to be legitimate by Constantine's people and has remained with this illusion ever since, not based on concrete archeological fact that I can see. Cheers, DCF
I just started watching these videos and am loving them! I have a question for Forrest: when someone challenges you to show them “a monkey turning into a man”, have you ever responded with the rapid evolution of the various dog breeds? I love science, especially biology and that would be my first type of response
I think the best way to try and understand what religious preachers of the past intended, we should look at modern day equivalents. Do any of you, actually trust what a modern day televangelist claims? How about any one of the religious people on the internet, how many of them are actually being honest, and how many are blatantly lying for cash? How about psychics making claims about what is going to happen because god is speaking to them? The problem with taking the bible seriously, is that extremely dishonest people have been claiming mythical knowledge for thousands of years; and none of them have ever shown their god concepts to be remotely factually based. The vast majority of theists, are lying to themselves about what they believe.
According to Christian arguements for the resurrection, Alice Cooper is a resurrected god! Night after night, Alice Cooper had his head cut off by a GUILLOTINE infront of about 20,000 people per night at his concerts. TRUE STORY: I was one of the people who actually saw it many years ago. My brother saw it happen the night before I did and suggested I go to see the concert while refusing to tell me why. Does this mean Alice Cooper was raised by God and resurrected night after night?!? And, does it mean that we should religiously worship Alice Cooper? (Yes, he is one of the "metal gods!") When I checked the newspapers the next day, they were not reporting his death and Alice Cooper is visibly STILL ALIVE!!! There are several RUclips videos of Alice Cooper having his head cut off throughout the years.
Hey y’all. This is Robert; I just wanted to say that I appreciate the civility from the viewers and the hosts of the show. I found this discussion to be quite informative, but I want to know what you guys think about the resurrection in general as opposed to the empty tomb narrative. The story is obviously inconsistent across the gospels, so I don’t dispute that it lends credence to the idea that this whole story is to some extent a legendary embellishment. But do you think the resurrection and/or empty tomb was a central tenet of early Christianity? I’m not even sure if it matters, and I’ve watched multiple videos from atheist scholars and others on the issue, saying that this is likely to be a later addition to early Christianity. But I just want to hear y’all’s thoughts. By the way, I don’t think I’m a theist still. I’m just trying to look at all of this stuff objectively. I appreciate any responses!
I'm not atheist so I'm not sure how accepting of the following you'll accept. I see the resurrection story as a way for early followers to understand/explain why their Jewish Messiah's "career" was unexpectedly cut short.
I suffer with hayfever so every spring and summer I worry about the pollen count. is it gonna be high. how bad will my hayfever be this yr and that to me is a genuine worry. so if I worry about runny eyes sneezes and coughing please explain to me how Christians can go about their daily life knowing that if they sin jsut once they'll go to hell and burn forever. that kind of threat would make me never want to go out or get up or interact with others. it's like wow how do you live with that kind of huge threat hanging over you. give me severe hayfever anyday 🤣🤣🤣
@@raysalmon6566 I mean, if you've got peer-reviewed scientific research as evidence that 90% of what he says is wrong, feel free to post it. Otherwise this just comes off as "I don't like what he's saying so he's wrong, just trust me bro".
@@captainnarwhal1064 Genetic studies ofpaired metabolomes reveal enzymaticand transport processes atthe interface ofplasma and urine im doing my best to read tbis peer review what peer reviews has forest suggested
A lie can become “true” because somebody else believes the lie or it was merely a mistake, or a delusional person saw a hallucination, or for whatever reason. You've probably heard about the concept that if a lie is told long enough, people come to believe the lie. I overlook the few flaws of my wife, or pick and choose what I like about her and disregard the rest. Of course, she replies, “I overlook your many flaws.” However, unlike Bible pickers and choosers, I don’t pretend her flaws are not there or are not real.
" people come to believe the lie." In my town, there is a story going about that someone tried to annoy me and start a fight at a bar and I beat him up really badly and taught him a lesson... The actual truth is that some loudmouth in a bar tried to pick a fight with me, and as soon as I stood up and looked down at him, he ran out the door... I never laid a hand on him... Just shows how much a story can change in just a half-dozen years...
A lie … … and yet, many people believe the lie. Despite no evidence for the lie, despite clear and overwhelming evidence against the lie, … many, many people believe the lie.
@@lutkedog1 While working a highly stressful and mentally taxing job, he lost his vision, started hearing voices, had a complete personality shift, and stumbled his way into town before he could see again. Sounds to me more like he had a stroke.
@@captainnarwhal1064 Suddenly a bright light(Lightning) from heaven flashed around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice. I will stick with Lightning.
The Savior was now (winter) deposited in his tomb. As the Sabbath (winter) was nearing its end, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the sepulchre, bringing sweet spices (the spring flowers) with them. They found the stone rolled away, i.e., it was spring. Mary ran to Peter (Aries) and told him the Savior's body wasn't in the tomb (winter). Peter, of course, was badly scared, and ran off with another disciple (Pisces) but got outrun, the last passing the Sun first. However, both found the “linen clothes” = the Earth. All then went home, i.e., the two sets of constellations (winter and summer) came into position at the spring equinox. Meanwhile “the vail of the temple (intereaspansum templi = the plane of the solstices) was rent (scissum est = was divided) from the top to the bottom, and the earth did quake (mota est = was moved, i.e., over the equinoctial line); and the rocks were rent” by the dissolving frosts. The graves were opened, i.e., the winter was past, and “many saints” (summer constellations) which slept (in the dark hemisphere) arose, and appeared to many, i.e., to such as understood the riddle. Mary stood without, at the sepulchre,” weeping (the latter rain); and as she wept, she stooped down (went below the equator), and, looking, saw two angels in white (the light of spring), sitting, one (Aries) at the head, and the other (Pisces) at the feet (see your almanac), where the body of Jesus had lain. “Why weepest thou?” said the angels. Because, said Mary, I cannot find my Lord. Being a night constellation, she couldn't see the Sun. Turning back just then (Lot's wife looked back), she saw Jesus standing, but didn't know him. He addressed her, when, turning again, she knew him (but didn't see him), and exclaimed Rabboni (My great one). Jesus said, “touch me not;” for I am not ascended to my Father (the Holy Ghost). The Sun and Virgo don’t come in conjunction until the end of the summer. Hence in the spring Jesus said to her: “touch me not;” “but go and tell my brethren that I ascend unto my father, and your Father; and to my God and your God” (Sun entered Aries). milton woolley
@@harveywabbit9541 I see you can't answer a simple question. Who visited the term first? Peter or Mary. So your answer should be Peter or Mary. Everything you wrote or copied and pasted is irrelevant
@@alucard2010 Peter is the constellation Aries (ruled by Mars the god of war) and Mary is the constellation Virgo. Pisces is the sign of Simeon. Levi is the bond of stars connecting the fish in Pisces. Remember Philip the lover of horsies? His sign is Sagittarius.
Let's say Jesus actually was a wizard that could walk on water, die an come back, etc. This does not prove that he was god or that cristianity is true.
@@gemganuhay661 If u consider the bible an acurrate source it would seem that yes. This is, however, irrelevant. Saying you are something does not prove it.
@@gemganuhay661 look bruh, what I am trying to say is that if something we can't explain happens, that does not change the fact that we can't explain it. People who see unidentified flying objects and proceed to identify them as aliens are contradicting themselves, because if we knew it was aliens we would not call those UFOs. A person that does this is unable to grasp the concept of being rational and seeking a less absurd explanation, such as military aircrafts. The same thing happens with miracles: can't explain what the wizard did? That means u can't explain. Even if u were to prove for a fact that he has powers, it does not mean he knows how he got them, I would say that, until we can give other people power by a similar process, we would be unsure. Another topic is how do these powers even work. If there was a wizard today the foolish people would start a religion around him, whilst the smart ones would not believe everything he says just cuz he has super powers. Do u want me to believe you? You have to prove your claims, not show me that I can't explain something, I know that already: I can't explain most things, including how the phone I am using works.
@@marcosbittar In my view most so-called "new" atheists are very misled by those who are profiting from the online atheist propaganda business who constantly make the false claim that no epistemologically sound argument has ever been given for the existence of an intelligent first cause or God Here is an epistemologically sound argument for the existence of an intelligent first cause based on what we know for certain and is self-evident, that has never been refuted: We do know for certain that LIGHT is the energizer of this planet and without light nothing could live for very long. Therefore, I believe it is correct to assume that LIGHT would be one of the primary attributes of whatever brought this system of life into existence. Another thing we know for sure is that this is an intelligent system, for without intelligence nothing at all on this planet could exist or function at all. All life forms seem to exhibit intelligence to one degree or another, even plants and trees. For those who have never considered plants and trees as exhibiting intelligence, just Google "plant intelligence" and "tree intelligence", and you may be surprised at how intelligent they actually are. Light is something - darkness is the absence of something, i.e. light. Therefore darkness is nothing of itself and that is the only possible explanation for what is meant by nothing. Nothing is the negation of something. Darkness is the negation of light. So, what we do know for certain is that LIGHT and INTELLIGENCE are requirements to sustain life on this planet. I believe therefore that it is safe to assume that the first cause would have LIGHT and INTELLIGENCE as its primary attributes. Next, if we look at the animal kingdom and the way that parents care for their offspring in both the animal kingdom and human one, we can equate the attribute of caring (love for?) with intelligent behaviour. If the parents of animals and humans were completely careless towards their offspring then the species would die out quickly. The three primary attributes of the first cause in my view would of necessity need to be LIGHT, INTELLIGENCE and CARING. If there is anyone who reads this that can come up with an intelligent argument against this and why it could not be the case then i would be very interested to read it as they would be the first, as in the past 30 years since these ideas dawned on me I have yet to find anyone at all with a sensible argument against what I believe to be true regarding the first cause. If the above is not self-evident to you then you yourself have a burden of proof to show in what way it is unsound, and to provide evidence showing that it is unreasonable or unsound reasoning. Which is more likely to be true and reasonable to believe out of the following: 1) That there was no first cause at all and that everything came from nothing for no reason at all? 2) That there was a first cause, but it did not have all or any of the three attributes mentioned above and was devoid of intelligence, therefore? 3) That there must have been an intelligent first cause? Having presented the above to many atheists since I first came up with it, I have found that they almost all will refuse to answer the question above and will just not respond at all. I have had one or two very weak arguments in response from atheists, but once I have explained to them that our planet is constantly bombarded by cosmic rays that are thought to come from outside the galaxy, and commenced with the big bang, and are from active galactic nuclei, quasars or gamma ray bursts, all of which emit extremely intense Light Energy, I never hear from them again. Whether they become God believers some time after that or not I have no idea and neither do I care really. One thing I do know though is that they can never again claim that they have never been presented with an epistemologically sound and reasonable argument for the existence of an intelligent first cause again. I suspect that those who decide to take up an extensive study of Panentheism afterwards will in time become God believers.
Im always disappointed when they dont point out there was no tomb. The entire story does not match how executions (specifically crucifixion) occurred as done in roman occupied nations. The waste of time and resources to crucify someone then let the friends and fam take the body down? Lol no that didnt happen. Saying there was a tomb and it was empty is not evidence there was a tomb at all. There was no tomb to begin with, so to try and make the unbeliever come up with explanations for something that didnt occur is another way to deflect the burden of proof.
That any 21st century person has the slightest belief in the bible stories staggers me. In an age where science and technology wipes the floor with myths and legends, it is perverse to live with one foot in the 1st century. I'm 80 and the son of a baptist minister. I walked out of church at 8, the talking snake did it for me.
Any time the question of why anyone would lie about gawd shit comes up, point them to Exodus where it lists all the fine and fancy shit that was to be given to Aaron. It's in the book.
Why was the Jesus Tomb empty? Where did his body go? Did Jesus need his body back to come back to life? Was there something special about those atoms? Those atoms that form his body? Or could he create some new atoms or a new body? Did he have magic j culture DNA? Did he not want to leave evidence that he existed behind? Where are his other stuff? His cloths, shoes, tools, house, family members, friends?
@@harveywabbit9541 They are more like heros, excessively perfect and so perfect that the perfect god in space chooses them. However, I don't know about Osiris, Thoth, Hermes, Bacchus, Dionysus.
Priest: “Thanks everyone for participating in this year’s Easter Pageant. All right kids we need to rehearse the part where it’s Easter morning and the first visitors arrive at Jesus’ tomb. Now who’s in this scene?” Child 1: “I am! Matthew 28:2-5 says an angel came down from heaven to greet them.” Child 2: “No, it wasn’t an angel! It was a ‘Young man’, Just look at Mark 16:5!” Child 3: “Hello! Luke 24:4 says very clearly it was ‘Two men’.” Child 4: “Well according to John 20:1-2 nobody was there.” Priest: “Children, the contradictions don’t matter! What matters is that we unquestioningly accept the magic of the resurrection even within the face of such glaring contradictions within the story.” Child 4: “Father, that was the most wonderfully concise summary of Christianity I have ever heard.” Priest: “Thank you child. It is blind submission to authority that got me where I am today"
The Romans didn't give their crucifixion victims a proper burial. They left them up on the crucifix to rot, then threw what was left in the garbage when the body fell off the crucifix on its own.
Assuming that Jesus existed and was crucified, why would the Romans have made an exception for this one guy they didn't believe was anything special? There's your problem with the empty tomb narrative. Even if the tomb exists, even if Jesus as a historical figure existed, and even if the tomb was meant for Jesus, he would never have been buried there.
You said it before I did.
what's more : crucifictions were executed to quell riotous behaviour that always happend during these pilgramic holydays. And an empty cross doesn't impress anybody.
It was more common practice to have the corpse rotting on it for a long time and I don't think a governor like Pontius Pilate gave a hood about Jewish sentiment.
@@kamion53 Yeah, the whole point of crucifixion was so that Romans could point to it and say "You step out of line, you get this horrifically painful and humiliating death over the course of hours of pure agony and have your corpse left to rot on the crucifix to disgrace the corpse as well". Doesn't make sense they'd suddenly change their traditions because some guy that was part of the group they are trying to get control back over asked nicely, even if bribery was involved, as this was seen as the pinnacle of punishment, not the kind of thing they'd take lightly.
The story goes that the reason he was in a tomb and not in a mass grave was because a rich man paid for him to be placed in a tomb.
@@meloncholy7515 Except that still makes no sense, because a punishment like this to quell a possible rebellion, which would be overseen by high ranking roman officers, would be followed strictly to code because of how big of a deal it was, especially when considering the context. Even then, it would take an overwhelming amount of bribery for this to happen considering just how many moving parts are involved, especially when you consider how centurions and roman politicians are typically well paid already.
What, did they bribe the centurions watching the corpse, the roman officials running the whole thing, all the citizens that would notice, all the people wanting jesus crucified that would take offense to it, etc without a single person mentioning it or objecting to it?
People lying.... I know a woman from, I think Ghana. Anyway, she is Christian, and married a white guy and now lives in the states. She comes from a small village in Ghana. Very few people have ever left on big trips. Even fewer have been on an airplane. Yet there were a few. She told me that these people would come back with stories about the "people who lived in the clouds" they saw when the flew on a plane. They talked about the "roads" in the sky, the "houses" they saw, etc. When she finally traveled on a plane, she realized these were all lies. All made up stories. These people had made up this to either show off, or to go along with the narrative, or who knows? But people lie ALL the TIME!
Look down out of a plane window through a broken cloud when flying over a populated area - OMG clouds, roads and houses, those people must live IN the clouds. I don't see this a a completely made up lie, merely an inexperienced flyer describing what they saw.
Reminds me of the "cargo" cults from some pacific islands...
- "The tomb was empty"
- "So where was the tomb?"
- "I dunno"
It really is a strange claim. And frustrating when presented as a "minimal fact". It's no different than claiming Hercules's bones were absent from His funeral pyre.
@@ryanrevland4333 It's exactly like that. Virtually all hellenistic demigods had missing body stories.
-"How empty was it?!" (someone in the crowd)
-"It was _so empty_ that it started a whole religion!"
I'm an Atheist who just started reading the Bible for the first time. The impression I get, is these are an ancient people that lack an understanding of their environment and are so apt and willing to believe supernatural claims and are desperate for a Messiah. In the book of John, chapter 1, Jesus even tells one of John the Baptist's disciples that they believe he is the messiah before they saw any of his miracles, which kind of came off mockingly in my opinion.
John the Baptist didn't have any disciples he was actually jesus cousin John the Baptist just told people of the coming messiah
Cousin? Was J the B's mother or father the sibling of god?
@@jonnawyatt John’s mother Elizabeth is characterised as Mary’s cousin in Luke 1:36.
@@mil401 yes indeed
so now you boks on Evolution which claims to knoe what happened millions of years ago
Seth and Forrest is pragmatism and knowledge combined. I absolutely love Forrest's energy coupled with Seth's calm.
Pragmatic? Belief that a plume of chemicals billowed itself into life, sentience, reason and morality. You've been coaxed with atheism.
FV isn't a fact checker.....
@@raysalmon6566 Of course not, he's a co-host. Different position, different title. Fact-checkers are more of a media thing like with Forbes.
@@captainnarwhal1064
Of course not, he's a c0-host. Different
position, different title. Fact-checkers are more of a media
thing like with Forbes.
_________________________
I see FV as a propaganda Evangelist
@@raysalmon6566 Well that is a statement about something that I never said.
Are you in the wrong thread or do you have problems comprehending the written word because if it's the first, you're not making any sense and if it's the latter, I can't help you.
It is just frustrating that a billion people blindly assume this STORY is true.... Actually there are about 4 different versions of the story in the same book! contradicting.... by anonymous authors.
And besides, we all know Sauron is real, i read it in a book.....
I don't know about Sauron but Spiderman has to be real, all the places in the story exist and there are people by those names who live there.
@@michaelmay5453 Sauron lives in New Zealand! 😉
@humperdoosaves497 the gospels do NOT contradict each other on the Death, Burial or Resurrection of Jesus. I bet if you read each account with an eye for all the marvelous details provided, you will be able to figure that out for yourself. The fact that you and other atheists keep parroting that falsehood is so surprising - How can you also believe the Bible was thought up by mere men to 'control' others or for some other nefarious reason and at the same time believe the gospel accounts contradict?
@@wwlib5390 lol. what were the last words of jesus again? 4 different versions.
or the number of staffs the disciples had to carry? 3 different versions
also, what tomb? what jesus? what eyewitnesses? written 70 to 400 years after the 'facts'...... it is impossible to have spoken to Actual witnesses, let alone find fhem, and even then, sccounts from people which heard them from other people, and other people, changing all the time, and no way to check if its even real....
anyone taking these stories seriously is an idiot.
The fun thing is, they don't conflict! They only all have different last words of jesus, different outcomes for Judas, different pilate interviews, different people that supposedly found jesus first after resurrecting, different people that the 'firsts' went and told (if anyone), different events after the resurrection, but absolutely no conflictions whatsoever! The gospels also don't have conflicting jesus origin stories involving the most illogical form of census ever that also wasn't recorded by anyone else either!
It's also not like even if they didn't conflict, that they totally wouldn't just amount to more claims instead of evidence!
INB4 someone tells me I haven't read the bible despite having done so cover to cover multiple times.
Empty Tomb? Crucifixion victims were left hanging on their crosses for days as a lesson to others. He would never have made it to a tomb.
I swear I say this almost every host! But Seth and Forrest are a perfect team! Def wanna see more of them together!
I have always thought that it was ridiculous that Jesus had to get out of town ASAP. How about sticking around for a few months and create thousands of witnesses? Give a few speeches, sign some autographs. Especially when the claimed event is so essential to Christianity, it's inexcusable to leave the door open.
He thought 500 was enough. If he hung around any longer they might crucify him again.
I love your observation. Precious. Thank you.
@@david-dj8or He should have let them crucify him a thousand times over a thousand days. What could it hurt?
@@jamesyoung1022 I also read in other holy writings that when Jesus rose, others started rising from their grave and walking around. Maybe Jesus didn't like those stealing his thunder and making coming back from the dead seem as no big deal.
@@david-dj8or "that when Jesus rose, others started rising from their grave"
Maybe there were a few people that weren't dead yet... took them down too early and they recovered...
It doesn’t matter why they would lie about it. What matters is if we should believe it, and there is no reason or evidence to suggest that we should. Their motivations in writing it are a moot point.
@@jonc3214 😆😂🤣🏳️🌈
I can't fathom how dumb the empty tomb argument is.
So my fridge is empty. Does that mean
1. I haven't gone to the shop this week
2. My Coca-Cola bottle has risen from the dead and gone to heaven
Obviously, I teleported into your kitchen while you didn't look, and took it!
Your fridge in Never Never Land?
First they need to show the empty tomb stories really happened.
All praise, the Coca-Cola bottle. Forever may you be carbonated.
Coca Cola belongs in Hell.
Hay, at least you can demonstrate both your fridge and the existence of Coca-Cola, Christians can't even do that for the Empty Tomb narrative.
It's circular reasoning. The story elements are being used to claim that the story is true.
It's all circular reasoning. They use the bible to prove the existence of the God of the bible.
I wish these people were aware of literary studies in which using the text alone is a valid approach…and everyone knows the text is fiction.
My biggest issue with the resurrection, it was not that long ago we were putting strings with bells in a casket because we buried people that ended up alive. It is more believable that he was never dead.
All these supernatural events like resurrections, flying wing horses, talking donkeys and snakes, 900 year old people, flying angels, virgin births, parting of the seas, global floods, Ken Ham's arks etc, all happened in ancient times. However in modern times like now with all our know how, technology, no supernatural things happen now.
We have absolutely no way of knowing whether they do or not happen as the MSM are bought and paid for liars for the establishment. They are pushing their alien agenda heavily now, as Tucker Carlson pointed out in his recent Twitter video broadcast, which has more than 90 million views by now I expect. He also had much to say about the continual deceptions and lies of the MSM. Fox News are no doubt wishing they had not got rid of him by now as at least when he was working for them they could censor and control what he said somewhat, but now he has free reign to tell the truth about them it is quite a different matter. Maybe they are already planning on silencing him. Jimmy Dore is another truth teller that the establishment would like to silence if they could. He has a huge following also though.
@@gemganuhay661Tucker Carlson has never said an honest word in his life. He's a white supremacist nutjob who has admitted in court that no reasonable person should believe a word coming out of his mouth.
Oh, ye of little faith, what about the miracle of finding your lost keys or getting the last parking spot or Jesus' face on toast
@@highpriestoftheflyingspagh8071 Virtually every broadcaster on MSM over the past few years has been caught lying also. So What? He is not on MSM anymore so can speak the truth.
From my understanding when someone went up on a cross they didn't come down until body parts started to drop off .
Exactly. The Roman's loved to leave them to rot as a warning to other
And they weren't put into a nice neat tomb and given last rites, either. They were unceremoniously dumped into a mass grave, a garbage pile, or a river.
The fact is, this is a 2000 plus year old story we have no idea who wrote what. Take things from today for example. How many people have seen the living Elvis walking around? Or Tupac? How many people have died for their beliefs? I mean an entire massove group of people died at James town. We know it's specially with social media how gullible human beings are even today. I mean I see posts every single day on Facebook or Instagram or ticktok where someone is being blatantly sarcastic and 50% of the people are completely oblivious to the sarcasm and 40% of the people are coming on too proudly announced that they were a detective and figured out that this wasn't real it was a joke and sarcastic when it should be no real honor to have figured that out. It was completely obvious. So we know that human beings are gullible by nature. It's a demonstrable fact. Now two thousand years ago we had tons of unanswered questions we didn't know probably ninety-nine percent of the stuff that we know today. So I could see how people could easily be fooled and die for a belief. Not to mention that we have also seen stories change and people's tails exaggerated over the years as well. A great example is the babe Ruth called shot homerun. There is video and babe himself admitted that he wasn't calling his shot. But that legend has grown to massive heights over the years. He was pointing at the other team and talking shit. I mean legends that have grown from real stories that were much less impressive. You take all these factors in and it baffles my mind that people think a 2000-year old book about supernatural claims is even remotely convincing. I mean it could have easily been a con man that fooled hundreds of people which is extremely easy to do and then over the decades his story grew and grew and grew and expanded, or he could have been a normal human being but a really good person that was trying to spread love and over the years his story grew and grew and grew and grew. I mean hell it could have been an L Ron Hubbard type situation where the story started out from complete and total bullshit it was a completely fake story that somehow got spread and elaborated on and that's where we sit today. I mean there are a number of easy explanations that could explain it. And I'm not even saying that it's a myth I'm just saying that people automatically rule that out when it is absolutely a possibility. There are so many non supernatural explanations available I think at this point we have progressed enough as a species with science that we can almost guarantee that the Bible is bullshit. But people by the billions are being indoctrinated from birth and given comfort to the tough questions that we may never have answers to and as long as people are scared of death and scared of saying I don't know and being raised from birth to believe, it's unfortunately not going to go away. Because human beings are gullible. And I see more and more everyday how flawedthe normal human beings epistemology is. Even in subjects that have nothing to do with religion they use the same exact fallacies and poor argumentation that they use with religion which is a harm that I tried to explain to people but until they realize that the arguments and poor evidence that they try to use for their religion isn't good, they will continue to use it in other areas of life. Which is really sad.
How many people believed that the COVID vaccines were poison AND they died for that belief.
Correction: They are still dying for that belief.
Respectfully, more people will read your post if you use paragraph breaks. The goal of a writer should be to make his writing readable. I was an English professor long ago (I'm old), so I want to help people improve their writing. Good luck. Oh, final thought: you write very well.
@@classicsciencefictionhorro1665 I'd like to second this idea. I didn't even bother reading that wall of text, because no matter how well written it might be it'd be a pain to read.
Robert it's very easy to come up with reasons why people would lie about the tomb. They tell the resurrection story, and people aren't buying it. So like al apologists they started making shit up that they thought would be convinving: "no, nut see, he was buried in a tomb, right, and then in the morning his body wasn't there anymore" "How do we know... well... uh... the woman who came in to do the ritual stuff found the tomb empty" "How do we know he wasn't taken out of there? Well they sealed it with a stone. A big one you can't move on your own" "Well yeah, multiple people could've done it, but eh... eh... oh! there were roman guards guarding the tomb!"
Other people would just need to buy and repeat it...
But would you die for this?
@@schrodingerskatze4308 If I thought dying meant going straight to heaven and living in total bliss for the rest of eternity, then yes.
@@korganrocks3995 Then they aren't lying
@@schrodingerskatze4308 They could be lying, boasting, misremembering, exaggerating etc, they just don't fear the punishment for doing so because death is their ticket to paradise.
A multitude claimed to have witnessed Mohammed flying up to heaven. If you find that easy to not believe, then everything else is easy.
TBH, there were no eye witnesses to the space donkey story.
There were some eyewitnesses when Muhammad split the moon but that's a sketchy story too. No other cultures spotted the split moon.
A lot of people have claimed to see Big Foot... doesn't mean Big Foot is real. 🤣
@@ChrissonatorOFL The funny part is that a lot of god believers will agree with you 🤔
@@ChrissonatorOFL No one is waiting for Big Foot to come and through all the nonbelievers into a lake of fire.
You'd think so, but the reality is that people are convinced their religion is true regardless of the nonsense in other religions. People don't apply the same level of rationality to their own religion as they do to others, maybe just don't wanna even contemplate their own religion is nonsense.
I recall that as a young child I put a paper clip in a toilet paper tube. When I removed my hand, it was gone. I thought it had disappeared. The “empty tomb” seems something like that, although an empty tomb is not necessarily a historical fact. Ehrman thinks that Jesus most likely was thrown in a mass grave, because that is what usually happened.
Clearly, the paper clip was the son of the god of Office Depot, resurrected to spread the gospel of affordable office and school supplies.
@@codyhelms2556 :)
I had something like this a couple years ago. Couldn’t find my black tv remote on my white bed. I shook out the comforter, the sheets and all my pillows. It was not on my bed. I looked on the floor around the perimeter then glanced up to my bed and there it was! Right in the middle of my comforter and pillows! Clearly god did this, he took time out to prank me while ignoring all those starving kids and cancer patients, amen.
@@codyhelms2556
🤣🤣🤣👍
I like that one. Could build a religion off of that that'll make a lot more sense than any of the others. At least we can prove office supply stores exist.
@@timothybrown5999 hallelujah !!
The "rock that begat thee," in Deuteronomy, is the phallus. Could this relate to the talking snake?
Well, yeah. If you start by believing it, you will find it more convincing.
👏 The basis of pretty much all theistic arguments!
I don't believe that someone who was treated as a criminal would have been given a nice resting place. At best it would have been thrown out in the desert, but more likely it would have been just left there and the birds would have picked on the corpse.
Oh no, the Romans went the extra mile to make sure that they didn't get a proper burial. Armed sentries to ensure the body was not taken down while it was left on the crucifix to rot. Once there wasn't enough soft tissue left to hold the corpse in place, what remained was thrown in the garbage.
Joseph, a rich man, asked Pilate (who was not an enemy of Jesus, but crucified Him out of fear) for the body that he might bury Him. Joseph being a rich man owned a family burial spot (likely his own grave for his future death) and buried Jesus in it. It was exceptional because it was an exceptional circumstance, it’s not very often a crucified carpenters son would have been able to get His hands on such a good spa de for burial. Similarly, the only reason there were guards at the tomb was not because Rome was concerned about the whole Jesus situation, it was the high priests who sent guards to the tomb.
@@jakesmith6268 We all know what your book says, the problem is there's no proof for it and the bible contradicts itself four separate times on how that narrative went. There's no reason to think that there was an empty tomb unless you also think god was dictating a book to Joseph Smith because that's what that book says happened.
@@jakesmith6268So the Romans, who, again, posted armed sentries around crucifixion victims to ensure that they aren't taken down and given a proper burial, saw this really nice tomb and just decided that "sure, you can bury this one random guy?" They just made an exception for Jesus because the tomb was nice, despite the fact that everyone else was specifically denied last rites?
You're just making shit up.
@@jakesmith6268 "... It was exceptional because it was an exceptional circumstance...."
Why was it exceptional? the crucifiction of a rebelrowser at the time of the year that Jerusalem was rive with riots was more or less standard procedure. Judaism wasn't not monolith in the slightest and knew many variations and variant groups that where willingly to fight each other.
by the way Joseph of Arimethea sounds pretty much like Josef ben Mattijahu, ( Flavius Josephus) who did asked the Roman general Titus to release three friends of him from the cross.
What is more plausible. That someone died, was entombed and then rose from the dead days later or that a few disciples, realising that their leader actually died, ruining their beliefs, snuck into the tomb, stole the body then kept that a secret... with everyone else in the cult believing it and becoming convinced of the storied embellished by others.
Yep definitely the second scenario.
We have a book about a guy who claims that during a hallucination a ghost told him that unnamed people saw a thing that totally happened, bro.
Then we give money to evil men with seven private jets.
There's no such thing as evil men.
𝗔𝗿𝗴𝘂𝗺𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗠𝗼𝗿𝗮𝗹 𝗡𝗶𝗵𝗶𝗹𝗶𝘀𝗺
Premise 1: Atheism rejects all moral claims that rely on gods.
Premise 2: Atheism rejects all a priori moral transcendentals. (e.g. Dao, Dharma, Divine Logos)
Premise 3: Hume's guillotine refutes all moral claims derived from observable facts.
Premise 4: Death/Entropy negates all moral claims derived from consequences. Soon, no one will care what you did.
Premise 5: There’s nothing ‘wrong’ with changing or losing interest in one’s values. Value judgements are NOT actually moral claims, but mere opinions or preferences.
Premise 6: Moral Nihilism is the only Atheism that is sufficiently rational to reject moral claims.
Conclusion: Moral Nihilism is the only rational outlook for Atheism.
@@I12Db8U Nice, lovely strawmen. Lined up in a row. At a moments notice, they are here to go.
Defend your claim that these are strawmen. There remains no rational basis for moral realism nor subjective morality.
@@I12Db8U Shouldn't try to shift the burden when you haven't even demonstrated your premises are valid.
@@nealjroberts4050 I didn't shift anything. The comment was that my premises are strawmen. That's a positive claim. The burden of defending the comment is on the one who made it. In what way is each a strawman?
His voice is like rich mahogany. I could listen to him read the phonebook, and be enthralled.
Where can I get that list showing the differences in the resurrection accounts?
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus
The Troll known as NEPy actually believes he can debunk this refute that still holds true today.
The idea that the empty tomb story was invented by followers of Jesus to explain how it was that the man they believed was their Messiah had died. Remember, these were apocalyptic believers who thought Jesus was here to work the power of God and set up a kingdom and rule for a thousand years.
At some point they had to adopt the belief that Jesus had ascended into heaven or abandon belief in Jesus as the Messiah. As they told the story to others, it would be reasonable for skeptics to reject this claim, and naturally a claim of an empty tomb was introduced, and later a claim of the person who supplied to the tomb when that was challenged. Decades after the fact, someone collected the stories as they were and cleaned it up into a solid narrative. Later gospel writers added more, likely in response to other reasonable criticism and doubt. They even wrote a story about how doubting was bad.
Assume it was a cult and followers exaggerated tales and invented facts in response to critical examination. It makes sense this way.
As they say in their own book: Proverbs 14:5. "An honest witness does not deceive, but a false witness pours out lies." Timothy 4:2. "Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.'
My guess is if he had a cultish following, and they were told to eat the last supper as though it was his own body, they ate his body and told everyone the tomb was empty after.
Otherwise don't care to think much more about it. Just weird stories written in a weird book that mean nothing anyways. How does any of it help anyone? Most of it is commanding people to stone each other to death.
My guess is that these were rites borrowed from non-Jewish religions or mysteries.
Closest to a cultural following in my opinion is that Jesus of Nazareth was just a leader of a gang of ultra conservative hillbillies from the countyside, who loathed the decadensy of big cities like Jerusalem.
I prefer my flesh of Christ char-grilled
I know believers will have myriad excuses about the gospel accounts conflicting, but if the death and resurrection story is the basis of your religion, you kinda expect the accounts to line up a little better than they do.
Indeed. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and getting your story straight is the bare minimum you would expect from a group of disciples of a living god. If you can't supply even ordinary proof, let alone extraordinary, why should I believe you?
I'm wondering why he would have been placed in a tomb in the first place, back in those days when people were crucified weren't their bodies left hanging to rot away & basically be picked clean by vultures ??
Yes. And now you see one of the many problems with the empty tomb narrative.
The tomb itself can't be verified to actually exist.
Even if it can, there's no evidence of who it was intended for.
Even if it was meant for Jesus, we don't know if he was actually there, as that would be a huge departure from how crucifixions were actually handled.
Even if Jesus was in the tomb, that isn't evidence that the reason he wasn't there later was because he got up and walked out.
And even if he did get up and walk out, that isn't evidence of divinity.
Which tomb? There’s like four locations at this point. 🙄
They also didn't crucify run of the mill thieves, either.
And usually they didn't crucify people found not guilty.
If it were to happen, Jesus would have needed help from a highly influential person.
Did it ever occur to them that the silly Sally's went to the wrong tomb & his body is probably still lying there.
paul never mentioned any empty tomb. the only source for that claim is the gospels, and they are legendary stories based on remote hearsay.
😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@scambammer6102 Paul did not need an empty tomb to believe Jesus had resurrected, it seems that his Jesus was more or less on the mythical plane then on the fysical plane.
@@kamion53 that is an unsupported assertion by mythicists cherry-picking Paul's letters to support your desired conclusion. Taken as a whole, Paul's letters indicate he probably believed in a corporeal Jesus.
I was 15 years old in 1972 and my grandfather was stabbed to death while driving a taxi in Wichita Kansas... I had stopped having faith in any deity a couple of years before that, but afterwards, I saw my grandfather numerous times... Each time I tried to follow him and catch him but he vanished... I had no idea there was a term for that.... Then again.... no one gave a shit about the family of a victim back then... so there wasnt any counseling offered, it was just pull up your bootstraps and get back in there.
Grief hallucinations.
I am so sorry that you had to live through that. No one should ever have to suffer the violent loss of a loved one, but when you are 15... 😢
@@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2 it caused me to lose all hope and to change my life... my mother didnt like the new me and had the court find me as a wayward child... the judge was a family friend from church... and he gave me 2 options.. Jail for the lsdst year of my juvenile life... or find a branch of the service that will take you without graduating frm school... They forced me into the army to learn a better way to kill... I had been a pacifist since the 1st grade after watching Kennedy get assassinated... but that doesnt matter when the generals need more fodder for their cannons... I eventually quit the army and ended up doing 6 months in the confinement facility (prison) before they kicked me out with a general discharge... the shit changed me and changed my life...
@@drmorqWarrenProject there's a possibility that it was grief hallucinations that formed the origin of the Resurrection story - grief can and has changed the direction of the world, not just your own life.
I hope that you eventually pulled it together and got past the messed up start.
@@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2 "Grief hallucinations."
Yeah, that makes sense...
Years ago, my G/F was killed in a crash...
Afterwards, kept thinking I'd seen her in places...
9:30 Christ was also not the first god born of a virgin, or the first to walk on water, or the first to raise the dead, or the first to turn water into wine...
Starting to look a lot like a copycat Charlie.
"Why would anybody lie" ffs get out more dude.
You think anyone would do that? Write a book to tell lies?
@@codyhelms2556 Joseph Smith
@@christophercastaneda9714 I'm well aware of convicted fraud Joseph Smith. My comment was not a serious one, I know people can write whatever the fuck they want in a book. That's how we got all of our so-called holy texts.
@@codyhelms2556 aren't all stories lies in a way?
@@skepticofdoom7486 No, because lies involve an intention to deceive the other party.
A lie is making a statement you know is false with the intent that the other person believes it to be true.
Why would a god/son of God need to roll the boulder away ? Having omni powers he could surely just have asked Scotty to beam him out ? The whole story stinks, but not of rotting human flesh, but of deceptive fiction.
I mean, he's the son of a god that was too weak to build a fence around the most important tree in his entire garden. Seems like simple tasks are just beyond him.
@@Arayot777 What? None of that is a prophecy. Livestock just need water to live, just like most living things.
@@Arayot777 You don't think that actually happened, do you?
The unseen resurrection was never particularly impressive. The thing that got me though was the supposed ascension where Jesus ascended up int the sky “to heaven” in front of his followers. There’s almost no detail in the Bible of this incredible event in which Jesus is supposed to have left corporeal Earth. It’s literally like the Simpsons with Poochy suddenly going “my planet needs me” and he’s gone.
The whole jesus stuff isn't impressive. He just "dies" for less than three days, not even a real sacrifice, he lost nothing.
And all of his teachings, were done before and more importantly, Jesus didn't explain ANYTHING.
‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Yeah... How? Love is a really broad spectrum, and self-love is something, many people struggle with.
I expect a bit more from the creator of everything, than that.
@@vertigo4236 Basically if Jesus was able to perform miracles in this natural world then why couldn't he also miracle defeating death/sheol/hades and taking away sins of the world while still being alive?
I mean if Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead while he (Jesus) was still alive walking the earth then that miracle did not require him to die and come back 3 days later and then perform the miracle.
This would be more of a theological question but what is so special about death? If I'm able to perform miracles (as the son of god) then why would the state of being dead (supposing that's the only way to gain passage to the supernatural realms of heaven/hell fyi Jesus descended to the harrowing hell after his death?) increase my magic powers?? It doesn't make sense. A god that dies is just a show off for that god.
Look mortals I can die too! Ain't it neat.
New Bingo Game... 😆
Instead of using the word *Bingo,* we'll be using: _Toxic._
You can arrange the numbers in a 5x5 grid however you like.
Here's the fallacies that you'll be using as a reference:
1. Argument from Ignorance: Assuming something is true simply because it hasn't been proven false.
2. False Authority: Believing a claim based on the authority of someone who lacks expertise in that area.
3. Appeal to Tradition: Arguing that something is true or good because it's been done that way for a long time.
4. Hasty Generalization: Drawing a conclusion based on insufficient evidence or a small sample size.
5. Anecdotal Fallacy: Using personal anecdotes as evidence for a general claim.
6. Confirmation Bias: Seeking or interpreting evidence in a way that supports preexisting beliefs.
7. Overgeneralization: Applying a general rule to a specific case where it doesn't hold true.
8. False Consensus Effect: Assuming that one's own beliefs and opinions are more widely held than they actually are.
9. Bandwagon Fallacy: Arguing that something is true or right because many other people believe or do it.
10. Appeal to Popularity: Asserting that something is true because it's widely accepted or popular.
11. Appeal to Belief: Claiming that something is true because many people believe it.
12. Post hoc ergo propter hoc: Assuming that because one event follows another, the first event caused the second.
13. Correlation implies causation: Believing that a correlation between two variables implies a cause-and-effect relationship.
14. Gambler's Fallacy: Assuming that previous independent events can influence the outcome of future events.
15. Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy: Cherry-picking data points that support a particular conclusion while ignoring contradictory evidence.
16. False Dilemma: Presenting only two options when more exist, leading to a simplistic or inaccurate conclusion.
17. Appeal to Ignorance: Arguing that something must be true because it hasn't been proven false, or vice versa.
18. Argument from Personal Incredulity: Rejecting a claim because it's difficult to understand or accept.
19. Argument from Incredulity: Asserting that a claim is false because it seems unbelievable.
20. Appeal to Fear: Using fear or threats to support a claim.
21. Straw Man Fallacy: Misrepresenting or exaggerating an opponent's argument to make it easier to attack.
22. Red Herring: Introducing an irrelevant topic to divert attention from the original issue.
23. Fallacy of Suppressed Evidence: Failing to disclose relevant information that contradicts or weakens an argument.
24. False Attribution: Incorrectly attributing a cause or source to a phenomenon.
25. Illusory Truth Effect: Believing that a statement is true simply because it has been repeated often enough.
You can replace the fallacies listed above with a list you prefer.
I love it, thank you for posting this, my friend. This is also a good reference tool.
What if the tomb was empty because a Roman soldier thought it would be a fun prank.
If it was then resurrection is the LEAST likely answer and the first they jump to.
It's more likely the whole tomb story was made up as fake evidence to sell the resurrection story. The whole thing is incoherent, criminals didn't get put in tombs, roman guards didn't follow Jewish orders, and so on...
@@George89999 Correct. No one knows (except for "God" Lol) the exact location of the tomb. This is an obvious problem because according to the biblical accounts you have several people visiting the tomb (including tomb guards) and reporting back the supposed resurrection. "Somehow" the exact location get's buried in time and later on (as Christianity is made the official religion of the Empire because a lot of theists taken to like this particular religion) resurrects as traditional/legendary burial places for Jesus (one such claim is that it's in some garden). Christians try to downplay this obvious mega embarrassment (well it's outside the city walls close to where Jesus was crucified...somewhere so it's close enough) and say that the exact burial place doesn't matter only the resurrection matters. These theists...sighs playing loosey goosey with epic stuff like this but there is for sure an exact place called heaven (upward) and hell (downward) and an exact God who most definitely exists? I guess god doesn't like gps or something...
@stefandingenouts that's a good point, actually. If Yeshua, the man, was put in a grave, but the soldiers told his followers it was a tomb, then logically, the tomb would be empty since he was never put in it. Combine this with bereavement hallucinations, and the followers made up the resurrection story to comfort themselves.
@@nagranoth_ Even in Bible, writers can't decide how many women visit the tomb...
Seth, I bought your latest book yesterday and I'm looking forward to read it.
What is their motivation? Power and control. Some of them were also 'true believers' and just repeating what they heard.
Good morning crew ❤
G'day, mate. ☮
Hey you 😘
Good morning 🌞
When I pointed out the fact that the gospels disagree with each other, this is an actual quote from a Christian responding.
This will give you an idea of just how deep the cognitive dissidence goes with Christians.
"God is not a bad communicator, the reason there are multiple bible translations is very simple; if we only had one translation, it could easily be corrupted. Having multiple translations available, we can compare them and see what the majority says."
~Christian
Christians have Olympic level mental gymnastic skills.
We've had a fair few people claim that because the accounts differ it makes them more realistic as true accounts.
We could say the same about the Cinderella stories!
Kinda strange that those who wrote Gods word needed others to fulfill their mission for him
Bad response, but the reason is actually simple. The gospels were all written from different sources (except for one unknown source), that probably remembered it differently, because they were only humans. But it really doesn't look like the point was to claim that exactly this person found it like this and then this person had exactly this experience with exactly these words. The point was to bring the central points of Christianity across. The best option they saw was to find different sources and put them into one text.
@@schrodingerskatze4308 Of course, they left out the accounts that disagreed with them too.
My god, the hoops people will jump through to alleviate cognitive dissonance.
I have no idea why theists think that the empty tomb is such a strong argument.
The empty tomb is only evidence for something if you can present a good reason to believe that the story happened as described. If I have to assume that your mythology is true before you can give me a good argument for your mythology being true, then we have a problem.
Regarding motivation to make something up, never underestimate that there are plenty of people who really want to have followers to have influence over. They feel a strong need to be on charge of something, and to have people eat up their words as though they're God's words. We can readily see this effect at work today. That's s even among preachers who don't seem to be after money...'only' power.
I'm a new atheist, so to say, and I was wondering. Why would the Catholic Church allow the different accounts to be included in the Bible? Why wouldn't they get their story straight before publishing the bible?
First of all, why NOT lie about it? We have stories about witnesses from scribes that have vested interest in the matter. Even if we accept that there was an empty tomb, is the most likely explanation a resurrection? I'd say that is the most unlikely explanation possible.
FIRST
Did Gandalf really say, Fly you fools?
Seriously first establish that it is not a made up story.
@@stephenolan5539 If it had been written today, it wouldn't become a religion. But as it has been taught through the times it has become one and we're arguing with their ideas rather than what we already know... It's a myth.
@@michaelmay5453
Don't be too sure look at Science Fiction writer L Ron Hubbard and Scientology.
@@stephenolan5539 Don't be too sure about what? Scientology is many things but just because the US classifies some sci fi novel as a religion does not make it so.
@@michaelmay5453
Scientologists have infiltrated the FBI, The RCMP, and other organizations. They are very devout believers.
They are a major cult and continued to grow after Hubbard died which is unusual for a cult.
There are thousands of empty tombs. All it means is that the prairie dog died.
Where is this empty tomb? How would anyone know that Jesus was in it?
I watched this video for over 2 minutes waiting for them to talk about ancient Egyptian tombs.
There is a talking snake!🥴 That should be enough to know it is all mythology! 😅
Yeah...and? Even Christians agree that the bible isn't a factual report of historic events that 100% happened exactly like this. So, what's your point?
@@schrodingerskatze4308 A fair number don't. Some of them post here.
Don't forget the talking phallus in Deuteronomy 32. The rock that begat thee = phallus.
@@nealjroberts4050 That's true.
Discover something very important about yourself by pondering one question a day for thirty days.
1. What should I think of those who pretend to know that an undetectable supernatural realm exists that is inhabited by undetectable, all-powerful, immortal beings, some good and some evil, all of them privileged to know the veracity of all things knowable and unknowable?
2. What should I think of those who pretend to know they are intimately familiar with a reality that is undetectable and unknowable, and have an intimate personal relationship with an undetectable good supernatural being that allows them to communicate telepathically with their mentor in the undetectable supernatural realm?
3. What should I think of those who pretend to know that an undetectable good supernatural being has bestowed upon them thousands of unknowable truths, including what it thinks and wants?
4. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings are continuously monitoring and passing righteous judgment upon every human thought and deed?
5. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have ordained them with the pre-eminent ethical moral authority, knowledge, and duty to advise me as to the truth of all unknowable knowledge that good supernatural beings want me to possess?
6. What should I think of those who pretend to know that they are actually immortal supernatural beings temporarily trapped in a mortal body?
7. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable evil supernatural beings are doing their best to deny me access to the unknowable knowledge that good supernatural beings want me to possess?
8. What should I think of those that pretend to know that I deserve to suffer eternal damnation if undetectable evil supernatural beings succeed in deceiving me concerning the existence of the supernatural realm and the unknowable knowledge that good supernatural beings want to impose upon me?
9. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have endowed them with the pre-eminent ethical moral authority, knowledge, and duty to recognize, challenge and condemn anyone who dares to spread a different version of unknowable truth?
10. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to restrict the questions, facts, narratives, and realities, I may entertain?
11. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings are responsible and deserve credit for every good thing that I experience in life?
12. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have informed them that I am responsible and deserve blame for every hardship I suffer in life?
13. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have informed them that if I have not dedicated myself to a life of servitude to undetectable good supernatural beings, it is only because I have chosen a life of servitude to undetectable evil supernatural beings?
14. What should I think of those who pretend to know that it is their righteous duty to visit hate, discrimination, misfortune, hardship, oppression, suffering, and destruction upon those whom their undetectable good supernatural mentors disapprove of?
15. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to assign my gender identity?
16. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to outlaw my sexual preferences?
17. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to condemn my sexual desires and fantasies?
18. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to condemn masturbation?
19. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have granted them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to restrict access to birth control?
20. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to regulate which adults I may or may not associate with, cohabitate with, have sex with, love, and/or marry?
21. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have decreed that men are entitled to subjugate and own women?
22. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to dictate a woman's reproductive choices?
23. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have decreed that, without exception, a fertilized egg, zygote, fetus, or unborn baby is endowed with the pre-eminent domain over a woman's body?
24. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the authority and duty to restrict the teaching of certain scientific theories in public schools?
25. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to ban comprehensive sex education in public schools?
26. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to restrict access to certain genres of books, videos, and other educational materials from public schools, public libraries, bookstores, and the internet?
27. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the authority and duty to ban discussion of social justice issues faced by oppressed groups in public schools?
28. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the authority and duty to ban the teaching of certain aspects of human history in public schools?
29. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable good supernatural beings have delegated to them the pre-eminent ethical moral authority and duty to restrict the words and expressions I may or may not use in communications?
30. What should I think of those who pretend to know that undetectable supernatural beings have endowed them with the ability to know that any unknowable thing that can be conceived by their imagination is a knowable truth?
Your questions are all presupposition fallacy, strawman fallacy, or both. They are all burden shifting fallacy and do nothing to prove the existence of a deity.
TLDR. Maybe if you posted one question at a time . . . Unless it's religious superstitionist nonsense, then it would still be a waste of time.
@@jonclark8252 What exactly do you think I presupposed? Did I presuppose that I should think about people who pretend to know the unknowable?
@@exceptionallyaverage3075 Did I fail to suggest that you ponder one question a day?
Is it really a waste of time to ask yourself what you should think of those who pretend to know things that are unknowable?
@@jamesyoung1022 I haven't read a single question you posted. I don't intend to waste time doing so, nor will I waste time answering any of your questions. I would be interested in any evidence you might have for the existence of a god. But be aware, I get to decide what does or does not convince me.
Why didn't anyone see the broken, smashed to pieces body of ghosts Jesus hobble out of the tomb? He sneaked out of the tomb when no-one was watching.
13:08 Beautiful words from Seth.
I would say a couple of things.
First the idea that ancient people were good at determining death is wrong to start with. People survive all kinds of horrific injuries and may seem dead to an untrained person. Since Jesus was apparently a political figure at the time he may have had sympathisers, even among the Romans, who would have hidden his survival to protect him. Then there is the more obvious idea that an empty tomb only means that a body has been moved, not that the body moved itself. Lastly eyewitness accounts are notoriously errant, especially when confirmation bias is present or memory is tainted by other’s claims. If eyewitnesses are to be believed without doubt then aliens walk among us.
When that whole was written down decades later 1000s of km away, it is extremely practical that the proof of a divine person EXISTED whose body had been killed and to prove its divinity is that he was resurrected - the proof of his existence and divinity is that there is NO evidence.
Presenting some EMPTY tomb is enough. No trace of anything is enough. And in a culture where people are buried the probability that there is an empty tomb that has not beed used yet or is one of those tombs that you have cleaned up for reusage is not zero.
People were cruzified all the time, so nothing special, Usually thrown into mass graves, so no chance in those times without gene anylysis to identify any specific body in the pile of bones.
The resurrected Christ did only appear to a FEW people, who at the time of writing had all died 100s of kms away, and you would have had to walk there for weeks to get to that place. So no one checks.
And then comes the story of the 500 risen dead that roam the streets of Jerusalem. THAT is a real sensation seen by thousands! Seeing either half-decomposed bodies crawling through the streets, or people that you know died years ago and must have rotten beyond recognition you now meet and are now better than life - that of hundreds of such stories not a singlle one shall have made it into non-christian reporting, is weird.
Mind you there are absolutely zero contemporary sources for any of that. And the earliest possible sources lived nearly a century after these alleged events supposedly occurred. It’s the biblical telephone game, doesn’t have the credibility of a used car salesman.
Thank you Forrest for googling that
So many stories passed on by word of mouth get embellished and I think it has something to do with the teller wanting to make it more interesting, we have all at one time told a friend not to exaggerate, people just like to have good stories to tell.
People will tell a story about something that happened to them yesterday while standing next to someone who was also present for the incident, and change things around either intentionally to make it seem more interesting, or unintentionally because they're misremembering the exact sequence of events or who said what.
Shouldn’t Christians prove the existence of their gods before claiming how one of them died?
“God said”. That’s it that’s all. Nothing to see here folks.
That’s what I hear from them.
The point is not that they said they had witnessed the resurrection but much later someone else said they did.
Why propagate the story, that question needs to be viewed through the perspective of the time.
There is no problem with the empty tomb, it doesn't exist. And I appear to be first.
even if it does exist.... how can we prove the tomb means anything at all lol
The romans didn't allow their crucifixion victims to be buried. Even if the empty tomb exists, and even if we could prove that it was meant for Jesus, he wouldn't have been buried there. He would have been left on the crucifix to rot, with armed sentries to prevent his body from being taken down, and then when there wasn't enough soft tissue left to hold his body up, his body would have been thrown in the garbage.
@@codyhelms2556 I know, hence the doesn't exist.
Even if the tomb existed, had a man named Jesus’s body in it, and was later found empty, it still says nothing about his divinity.
funny how theists always lose their mind when i ask for a biosample of jesus. act all offended 😂
Great call
Theists that become Atheists usually know the buybull very well. Reading the buybull for the first time was the impetus for the study that led to my atheism.
I'm so glad I have aphantasia... it really helps me to not imagine crap.😅
Literally this week a woman in Ecuador who had wrongly been declared dead was discovered alive when they heard knocking from her coffin during her funeral wake.
It's quite common for people to be wrongly declared dead.
filling the unknown up with a miracle because it makes you feel good.
Dr Tabor, as I noted in my own vid, had an interesting theory of the Holy Sepulchre tomb being a temporary place for Christ's body which was moved shortly after to the Talpoit tomb. And if it is true that Christ's body was moved within three days from Sepulchre to another tomb and that tomb is legitimate, then that is the end of Christianity. The Christian apologists largely take the Holy Sepulchre tomb as the tomb of Christ when really it is just a possibility that isn't a known and confirmed truth at all. And we have to remember that the Holy Sepulchre tomb was said to be legitimate by Constantine's people and has remained with this illusion ever since, not based on concrete archeological fact that I can see. Cheers, DCF
I just started watching these videos and am loving them! I have a question for Forrest: when someone challenges you to show them “a monkey turning into a man”, have you ever responded with the rapid evolution of the various dog breeds? I love science, especially biology and that would be my first type of response
I think the best way to try and understand what religious preachers of the past intended, we should look at modern day equivalents.
Do any of you, actually trust what a modern day televangelist claims? How about any one of the religious people on the internet, how many of them are actually being honest, and how many are blatantly lying for cash? How about psychics making claims about what is going to happen because god is speaking to them?
The problem with taking the bible seriously, is that extremely dishonest people have been claiming mythical knowledge for thousands of years; and none of them have ever shown their god concepts to be remotely factually based.
The vast majority of theists, are lying to themselves about what they believe.
@@jaflenbond7854 You're still kicking and screaming?!
I'm more concerned about empty heads of these people who call than about empty tombs.
According to Christian arguements for the resurrection, Alice Cooper is a resurrected god! Night after night, Alice Cooper had his head cut off by a GUILLOTINE infront of about 20,000 people per night at his concerts.
TRUE STORY: I was one of the people who actually saw it many years ago. My brother saw it happen the night before I did and suggested I go to see the concert while refusing to tell me why. Does this mean Alice Cooper was raised by God and resurrected night after night?!? And, does it mean that we should religiously worship Alice Cooper? (Yes, he is one of the "metal gods!") When I checked the newspapers the next day, they were not reporting his death and Alice Cooper is visibly STILL ALIVE!!!
There are several RUclips videos of Alice Cooper having his head cut off throughout the years.
Alice Cooper is indeed a rock god!! Seeing him in concert is on my bucket list.
Hey y’all. This is Robert; I just wanted to say that I appreciate the civility from the viewers and the hosts of the show. I found this discussion to be quite informative, but I want to know what you guys think about the resurrection in general as opposed to the empty tomb narrative. The story is obviously inconsistent across the gospels, so I don’t dispute that it lends credence to the idea that this whole story is to some extent a legendary embellishment. But do you think the resurrection and/or empty tomb was a central tenet of early Christianity? I’m not even sure if it matters, and I’ve watched multiple videos from atheist scholars and others on the issue, saying that this is likely to be a later addition to early Christianity. But I just want to hear y’all’s thoughts.
By the way, I don’t think I’m a theist still. I’m just trying to look at all of this stuff objectively. I appreciate any responses!
I'm not atheist so I'm not sure how accepting of the following you'll accept.
I see the resurrection story as a way for early followers to understand/explain why their Jewish Messiah's "career" was unexpectedly cut short.
I suffer with hayfever so every spring and summer I worry about the pollen count. is it gonna be high. how bad will my hayfever be this yr and that to me is a genuine worry. so if I worry about runny eyes sneezes and coughing please explain to me how Christians can go about their daily life knowing that if they sin jsut once they'll go to hell and burn forever. that kind of threat would make me never want to go out or get up or interact with others. it's like wow how do you live with that kind of huge threat hanging over you. give me severe hayfever anyday 🤣🤣🤣
I appreciate you guys... both Seth and Forrest
Brother Forrest is becoming my favorite heathen! 😊
if you can write off about 90% of as silly talk
@@raysalmon6566 I mean, if you've got peer-reviewed scientific research as evidence that 90% of what he says is wrong, feel free to post it. Otherwise this just comes off as "I don't like what he's saying so he's wrong, just trust me bro".
@@captainnarwhal1064
Genetic studies ofpaired metabolomes
reveal enzymaticand transport processes
atthe interface ofplasma and urine
im doing my best to read tbis peer review
what peer reviews has forest suggested
@@raysalmon6566 And you think that study says what exactly?
People come to Jesus! ❤
The tomb of Horus in Egypt is also empty
If Christians really want to know what the bible says, just ask a atheist! LoL
Excellent.
A lie can become “true” because somebody else believes the lie or it was merely a mistake, or a delusional person saw a hallucination, or for whatever reason. You've probably heard about the concept that if a lie is told long enough, people come to believe the lie.
I overlook the few flaws of my wife, or pick and choose what I like about her and disregard the rest. Of course, she replies, “I overlook your many flaws.” However, unlike Bible pickers and choosers, I don’t pretend her flaws are not there or are not real.
" people come to believe the lie."
In my town, there is a story going about that someone tried to annoy me and start a fight at a bar and I beat him up really badly and taught him a lesson...
The actual truth is that some loudmouth in a bar tried to pick a fight with me, and as soon as I stood up and looked down at him, he ran out the door... I never laid a hand on him...
Just shows how much a story can change in just a half-dozen years...
A lie become “true” because Paul had a hallucination after being hit by lightning, "three days blind.
A lie …
… and yet, many people believe the lie.
Despite no evidence for the lie, despite clear and overwhelming evidence against the lie, … many, many people believe the lie.
@@lutkedog1 While working a highly stressful and mentally taxing job, he lost his vision, started hearing voices, had a complete personality shift, and stumbled his way into town before he could see again. Sounds to me more like he had a stroke.
@@captainnarwhal1064
Suddenly a bright light(Lightning) from heaven flashed around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice.
I will stick with Lightning.
My favorite question I like to ask is who visited the tomb first Peter or Mary?
The Savior was now (winter) deposited in his tomb. As the Sabbath (winter) was nearing its end, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the sepulchre, bringing sweet spices (the spring flowers) with them. They found the stone rolled away, i.e., it was spring. Mary ran to Peter (Aries) and told him the Savior's body wasn't in the tomb (winter). Peter, of course, was badly scared, and ran off with another disciple (Pisces) but got outrun, the last passing the Sun first. However, both found the “linen clothes” = the Earth. All then went home, i.e., the two sets of constellations (winter and summer) came into position at the spring equinox. Meanwhile “the vail of the temple (intereaspansum templi = the plane of the solstices) was rent (scissum est = was divided) from the top to the bottom, and the earth did quake (mota est = was moved, i.e., over the equinoctial line); and the rocks were rent” by the dissolving frosts. The graves were opened, i.e., the winter was past, and “many saints” (summer constellations) which slept (in the dark hemisphere) arose, and appeared to many, i.e., to such as understood the riddle.
Mary stood without, at the sepulchre,” weeping (the latter rain); and as she wept, she stooped down (went below the equator), and, looking, saw two angels in white (the light of spring), sitting, one (Aries) at the head, and the other (Pisces) at the feet (see your almanac), where the body of Jesus had lain. “Why weepest thou?” said the angels. Because, said Mary, I cannot find my Lord. Being a night constellation, she couldn't see the Sun. Turning back just then (Lot's wife looked back), she saw Jesus standing, but didn't know him. He addressed her, when, turning again, she knew him (but didn't see him), and exclaimed Rabboni (My great one). Jesus said, “touch me not;” for I am not ascended to my Father (the Holy Ghost). The Sun and Virgo don’t come in conjunction until the end of the summer. Hence in the spring Jesus said to her: “touch me not;” “but go and tell my brethren that I ascend unto my father, and your Father; and to my God and your God” (Sun entered Aries).
milton woolley
@@harveywabbit9541 I see you can't answer a simple question. Who visited the term first? Peter or Mary. So your answer should be Peter or Mary. Everything you wrote or copied and pasted is irrelevant
@@alucard2010
Peter is the constellation Aries (ruled by Mars the god of war) and Mary is the constellation Virgo. Pisces is the sign of Simeon. Levi is the bond of stars connecting the fish in Pisces. Remember Philip the lover of horsies? His sign is Sagittarius.
@@harveywabbit9541 I don't Care, that didn't answer my question
@@alucard2010
The biblical Peter and Mary never were.
Seth, you are absolutely brilliant.
Excellent response Seth.
Let's say Jesus actually was a wizard that could walk on water, die an come back, etc. This does not prove that he was god or that cristianity is true.
Did he ever claim to be God then?
@@gemganuhay661 If u consider the bible an acurrate source it would seem that yes. This is, however, irrelevant. Saying you are something does not prove it.
@@gemganuhay661 look bruh, what I am trying to say is that if something we can't explain happens, that does not change the fact that we can't explain it. People who see unidentified flying objects and proceed to identify them as aliens are contradicting themselves, because if we knew it was aliens we would not call those UFOs. A person that does this is unable to grasp the concept of being rational and seeking a less absurd explanation, such as military aircrafts.
The same thing happens with miracles: can't explain what the wizard did? That means u can't explain. Even if u were to prove for a fact that he has powers, it does not mean he knows how he got them, I would say that, until we can give other people power by a similar process, we would be unsure. Another topic is how do these powers even work.
If there was a wizard today the foolish people would start a religion around him, whilst the smart ones would not believe everything he says just cuz he has super powers. Do u want me to believe you? You have to prove your claims, not show me that I can't explain something, I know that already: I can't explain most things, including how the phone I am using works.
@@marcosbittar In my view most so-called "new" atheists are very misled by those who are profiting from the online atheist propaganda business who constantly make the false claim that no epistemologically sound argument has ever been given for the existence of an intelligent first cause or God
Here is an epistemologically sound argument for the existence of an intelligent first cause based on what we know for certain and is self-evident, that has never been refuted:
We do know for certain that LIGHT is the energizer of this planet and without light nothing could live for very long. Therefore, I believe it is correct to assume that LIGHT would be one of the primary attributes of whatever brought this system of life into existence. Another thing we know for sure is that this is an intelligent system, for without intelligence nothing at all on this planet could exist or function at all. All life forms seem to exhibit intelligence to one degree or another, even plants and trees. For those who have never considered plants and trees as exhibiting intelligence, just Google "plant intelligence" and "tree intelligence", and you may be surprised at how intelligent they actually are.
Light is something - darkness is the absence of something, i.e. light. Therefore darkness is nothing of itself and that is the only possible explanation for what is meant by nothing. Nothing is the negation of something. Darkness is the negation of light. So, what we do know for certain is that LIGHT and INTELLIGENCE are requirements to sustain life on this planet. I believe therefore that it is safe to assume that the first cause would have LIGHT and INTELLIGENCE as its primary attributes.
Next, if we look at the animal kingdom and the way that parents care for their offspring in both the animal kingdom and human one, we can equate the attribute of caring (love for?) with intelligent behaviour. If the parents of animals and humans were completely careless towards their offspring then the species would die out quickly.
The three primary attributes of the first cause in my view would of necessity need to be LIGHT, INTELLIGENCE and CARING. If there is anyone who reads this that can come up with an intelligent argument against this and why it could not be the case then i would be very interested to read it as they would be the first, as in the past 30 years since these ideas dawned on me I have yet to find anyone at all with a sensible argument against what I believe to be true regarding the first cause.
If the above is not self-evident to you then you yourself have a burden of proof to show in what way it is unsound, and to provide evidence showing that it is unreasonable or unsound reasoning.
Which is more likely to be true and reasonable to believe out of the following:
1) That there was no first cause at all and that everything came from nothing for no reason at all?
2) That there was a first cause, but it did not have all or any of the three attributes mentioned above and was devoid of intelligence, therefore?
3) That there must have been an intelligent first cause?
Having presented the above to many atheists since I first came up with it, I have found that they almost all will refuse to answer the question above and will just not respond at all.
I have had one or two very weak arguments in response from atheists, but once I have explained to them that our planet is constantly bombarded by cosmic rays that are thought to come from outside the galaxy, and commenced with the big bang, and are from active galactic nuclei, quasars or gamma ray bursts, all of which emit extremely intense Light Energy, I never hear from them again.
Whether they become God believers some time after that or not I have no idea and neither do I care really. One thing I do know though is that they can never again claim that they have never been presented with an epistemologically sound and reasonable argument for the existence of an intelligent first cause again.
I suspect that those who decide to take up an extensive study of Panentheism afterwards will in time become God believers.
@@gemganuhay661 You may wanna rethink your screen name. 🤦♂️
How do you Christians deal with the fact that Hercules' bones were not on his funeral pyre, says so right there in Herodotus' histories.....
Im always disappointed when they dont point out there was no tomb. The entire story does not match how executions (specifically crucifixion) occurred as done in roman occupied nations.
The waste of time and resources to crucify someone then let the friends and fam take the body down? Lol no that didnt happen. Saying there was a tomb and it was empty is not evidence there was a tomb at all.
There was no tomb to begin with, so to try and make the unbeliever come up with explanations for something that didnt occur is another way to deflect the burden of proof.
The sun goes into the tomb at sun down and comes out at sun rise.
Forrest said "he wants to talk about the empty tomb" but I heard "MC2" and was like "he wants to talk about Spider-Girl from 1998??"
What f'ing tomb. Why are Christians always bringing up the empty tomb. If Jesus was a person, he was thrown in a mass grave with everyone else.
Love Seth and Forrest together
The bible is just fan fiction 😂
You do understand that people at that time were writing fictional stories just as they have for 2000+ years
Occam's razor, you hear hoof-,beats in Texas, it's horses not zebras. Someone moved the body and hid it, if the story wasn't made up.
It is a task to hide the sun.
@@harveywabbit9541 I don't understand this reference
@@SuperFredAZ
The sun enters the tomb at the autumn equinox and comes out of the tomb at the spring equinox.
@@harveywabbit9541 the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, so what?
@@SuperFredAZ
Congratulations.....Now you understand the bible.
ALL-STAR CAST HERE WOOO
This caller is giving off some heavy "How do you do, fellow atheists?" vibes.
Love you Seth! So excellent.
Don't let fear be your guide
That any 21st century person has the slightest belief in the bible stories staggers me. In an age where science and technology wipes the floor with myths and legends, it is perverse to live with one foot in the 1st century.
I'm 80 and the son of a baptist minister. I walked out of church at 8, the talking snake did it for me.
Any time the question of why anyone would lie about gawd shit comes up, point them to Exodus where it lists all the fine and fancy shit that was to be given to Aaron. It's in the book.
Why was the Jesus Tomb empty? Where did his body go?
Did Jesus need his body back to come back to life?
Was there something special about those atoms? Those atoms that form his body?
Or could he create some new atoms or a new body? Did he have magic j culture DNA? Did he not want to leave evidence that he existed behind?
Where are his other stuff? His cloths, shoes, tools, house, family members, friends?
Jesus is the winter sun, same as Moses, Noah, Osiris, Thoth, Hermes, Bacchus, Dionysus and many more.
@@harveywabbit9541 They are more like heros, excessively perfect and so perfect that the perfect god in space chooses them.
However, I don't know about Osiris, Thoth, Hermes, Bacchus, Dionysus.
What's truly amazing is all the supernatural stopped at the edge of recorded history.
Priest: “Thanks everyone for participating in this year’s Easter Pageant. All right kids we need to rehearse the part where it’s Easter morning and the first visitors arrive at Jesus’ tomb. Now who’s in this scene?” Child 1: “I am! Matthew 28:2-5 says an angel came down from heaven to greet them.” Child 2: “No, it wasn’t an angel! It was a ‘Young man’, Just look at Mark 16:5!” Child 3: “Hello! Luke 24:4 says very clearly it was ‘Two men’.” Child 4: “Well according to John 20:1-2 nobody was there.” Priest: “Children, the contradictions don’t matter! What matters is that we unquestioningly accept the magic of the resurrection even within the face of such glaring contradictions within the story.” Child 4: “Father, that was the most wonderfully concise summary of Christianity I have ever heard.” Priest: “Thank you child. It is blind submission to authority that got me where I am today"