Avanti's New Class 805 bi-mode units
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- Опубликовано: 10 окт 2024
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The first Class 805 entered service on Sunday the 2nd of June, in this video we take a look on board and ask an important question, are they better than Class 221 Super Voyagers?
#Class805 #Avanti #avantiwestcoast
🚨 Bit of a correction 🚨 the units can get up to 125mph in diesel mode, "limited to" was a poor choice of words. Everything I've read or been told lead me to believe they can't achieve 125mph.
Yep, there's been misinformation out there. GWR's 800/802s have always been rated max 125mph in either mode. Achieving 125 on diesel depends on gradient and distance between station stops...rather like the good old HSTs!
A couple of corrections (sorry):
Engines - The engines are actually rated at 750hp/560kw like the LNER versions. They have a better acceleration curve in diesel than the class 802s so they are not that much slower. They also meet the latest emissions standard and the cooler groups run off the auxiliary supply. This means they can cool the engine whilst it's shutdown - a big improvement over the 800/802 setup.
Speeds - The units aren't limited to 110mph in diesel, we've had 125mph out of them in testing!
Non EPS - Once NR unwrap the new MU speed boards, all Multiple Units will be able to run at faster speeds. Speeds range from 115 to 125mph with the units slowing for the existing PSRs round the tighter curves (Stafford/Weedon etc).
Thanks, explains why they're a different class to the 802. I could only find 1 source for the engine rating unfortunately.
Interesting about the speed when on diesel. All the information I've come across suggested about 115mph was the maximum
Good to know NR are going ahead with lifting the speed limits. I couldn't find any information and was told by an Avanti social media person they would be limited to 110mph on the WCML.
I believe there's a slight discrepancy. The understanding that I have is that 110mph _is_ still the track limit for non-tilting stock on the WCML in the areas where the 805s will be running, however there is no actual technical limitation preventing the trains from reaching 125mph on diesel. The 80x classes were always designed to do 125 on diesel and the idea that they couldn't seems to be a rumour from a very old, outdated source that made it to Wikipedia years before the first 800s even entered service and just doesn't seem to die.
Good that the 'MU' speed uplift is happening...but hopefully the revised signage won't risk confusing drivers with too many chops and changes in speed profile. Back in my day the rules were relaxed to allow (a maximum of) three speed values displayed at any given location. I guess that after all 221s are withdrawn from WCML NR can scrap all differential EPS signs, so maybe curves like Berko can change from 100 over EPS115/125 to become 100 over MU115 over EPS125. Something like that.
Excellent stuff and the chairs even look usable! Thanks for the report!
I'm so relieved that the seats seem somewhat comfortable 😅
Finally, these IETs are gradually earning back the reputation of being the best trains in Britain in the future. Really hope that's what happening in the upcoming times!
Hardware-wise, if 80X ride quality can be made as refined as BR MkIII or Class 22X, I agree!
Most original 800/801/802 nonsense, like crap seating, garish lighting, doctors-waiting-room plastic walls, pathetically small hook-up space for bikes and (in the case of GWR) trolley-only catering were just appalling spec choices from which lessons are already being learned. Good luck to pax about to experience these later 8XX models!
Nice video, think the seats are roughly the same as the Class 803 which LumO operate but it great to see them finally entered service.
Thanks Simon 🙂
Thanks for the vid. Good to see that the class 805s are finally in service
They're definitely a step up from Voyagers. I just hope they iron out the bugs
@@Rail_Focus True. I've gotta say that I've never been fan of the Voyagers so I'm glad that the 805s are coming in to replace them. Hopefully, Crosscountry can get some replacement stock in the future as well
The Class 805 Bi-mode Evero IETs are beautiful and it’s nice to see them in service that are replacing the Class 221 Voyagers. The Class 807 is expected to enter service in the upcoming months of this year.
Great video as always Chris! Very polished! Gotta say as someone who intensely dislikes IETs for their poor seating quality and offensive lighting, Avanti seem to have done a very good job getting the best out of them here. Nothing will beat the ambience of a Pendolino, but these look reasonably comparable, which is impressive given they’re IETs.
Big believer in ambience and comfort being a big driver of modal-shift, especially on long-distance routes.
Nice one Avanti. Now run them on time! 😉
Thank you. It's good to see that Avanti is bucking the trend and seems to have learned from the other 8XX. Although I can't figure out why TPE made the choices it did given I don't believe there was as much DfT interference as there was during the GWR and LNER procurement
@@Rail_Focus Yeah it is a bit perplexing! The only reason I can think of is the same reason many people believe painting all the walls in their houses white and installing bright white LEDs will somehow "make it look bigger" or "make it look cleaner" both of which it doesn't really do, just makes it feel like a dentist surgery!
On the seat front, maybe TPE deliberately wanted to make the difference between their standard & first class seating more prominent to help up-sell? There's no other reason the seats should be so uncomfortable. It can't be saving much money?
My only gripe with the new Avanti fit-out is that they stick with the airline seating in their 1st class. Almost every seat should be a dual-facing table seat aligned with the windows. You're paying for it after all!
Excellent report, thanks.
Thank you 🙂
How long have we been waiting for ETCS on the WCML? Hopefully we'll see a train go 140mph soon on the East Coast; I hope they have a 'Woosh' sound effect to play over the PA every time they break that 125 limit. I'm still waiting for nose-cone camera on trains that you can watch on the WiFi like on airplanes but looks like i'll have to wait little longer.
I think Warrington to Wigan will be the first section to get ETSC during the signalling renewal, but the WCML won't get ETCS throughout its length until the ECML is finished
There is little point allowing 140 on most of the WCML... The pathing constraints mean it's barely able to support 125 as it is
@@dasy2k1 So do you mean that there isn't enough capacity to run trains faster? Do you need longer blocks for each speed increase and so 125 is about the limit? Avanti aren't running as many services as VT used to, so does that not help? I'm genuinely curious if you have any more you can share.
@@SirKenchalot the killer with capacity isn't the speed limits per say although yes you do need slightly longer blocks due to the braking distance increases although that is partially alleviated by ETCS
The issue is the difference in speed between the fastest and slowest train sharing a line... If the train in front is only capable of 110 even a 75mph freight you are going to catch up much sooner which absolutely kills capacity
@@SirKenchalotI don't think we'll ever see 140MPH running on the WCML. There simply is not enough capacity, since you'd have to leave larger gaps in front of the fast trains so they don't catch up with the slow trains. This is exactly why HS2 is being built, and with HS2 on the way, running at higher speeds on the existing lines simply makes no sense!
The Avanti West Coast Class 805 Evero are very nice trains. And hopefully the Class 807 Evero should also enter service later this year.
I hope Avanti introduces the 807s on the new Liverpool service via South Parkway, still seems to be in doubt
Thank you for the review and update
Glad you enjoyed it 🙂
Thank you for a excellent update.
Glad you enjoyed it 🙂
I would love to see a Shinkansen Hayabusa "GranClass" built on a class 805 train.
4:32 It's Pendolinos where the Shop is in Coach C. On 805s, the Shop is in Coaches B & M. On 807s, it is in Coach D.
Oh that's weird, I could of sworn I heard the announcer say C. Thanks for the clarification
Never quite liked the Voyagers - felt lightweight vs Pendolinos and the East Coast options. But the worst thing is at Euston, when a Voyagers idling within a few platforms of whatever train you're actually getting on or off. The smog's really harsh. These 805s should be a shade better.
Avanti and Lumo improved the IET quality in my opinion.
They're clearly better than the GWR LNER and First Hull IET's as they have very poor ride quality at top speed. So I'm saying a bit of an improvement from the Voyager. Even thought seat comfort is firm I would still say they are an improvement.
Great video
It seems that there's quite a variety of these 800-series classes now. Whilst the infinite variations - I suppose - have allowed the IET-types to be improved upon over the past decade, it does seem to have caused unnecessary fragmentation? Surely a universal standard type train would have been better?
Thankfully lessons seem to have been learned and Avanti had a bit more freedom to specify the interiors, whereas LNER and GWR sets were specified by the DfT.
One would think upgrades, rather than new classes, would be the way to go. What a wasteful rail system we're subjected to!
The Class is just a number. All of the 8XXs are mechanically very similar, apart from engine rating, number of carriages and interior choices. Only the 810s will be significantly different, but the carriages need to be shorter to run on the MML.
@@Rail_Focus So you would say no 8XX class is a direct improvement over another?
@@caramelldansen2204 not really. All use the same body shells and running gear. Even though the engine ratings are different the engines are all the same, just updated or de-tuned depending on requirements. Only significant difference is the interior choices
Jen On The Move must be rejoycing! 😂
Will be interesting to see what Jen makes of the new trains
This will be good news for places like Barrow-in-Furness and Shrewsbury as well as Holyhead. What about running a service from Euston to Aberystwyth as well? Also, diverting Euston - Glasgow services via the Settle & Carlisle and Kilmarnock will be easy with these.
I believe Avanti has halted all Shrewsbury operations so they will only be seen on the North Wales mainline and Birmingham
Avanti are cancelling the Shrewsbury service. 805s will work mainly on the North Wales Coast and Chester to Euston
@@Rail_Focus why are Avanti stopping the Shrewsbury services?
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Should see more being built for LUMO etc for first group probably an extra unit or carriages fir Hull trains too
Is there any catering in First similar to what you get on the Pendolinos? There doesn't seem to be a kitchen area so is it served from the shop?
Good question!
I've just had a look and it does appear that there is catering, with a menu available on the Avanti website. But only Monday to Friday
@@Rail_Focus Yes me too! There's hot food (but not as extensive as the Penolinos) so there must be a wee kitchen somewhere!
@@RogEdwardsTVYes there is a wee kitchen between first class and the driving cab
The 1st class seats on Cross Country's voyagers look much better to these new thin ones.
The only good things that i can say about these trains is that the inside is pretty good
Oh and the paint is "lit"
I always here everyone saying they can only run 110 on diesel mode, I’ve been on 80x from Swindon to London on 3 occasions under diesel power (don’t ask why) and we’ve done 125 on all occasions, 127 at points to be precise
That's just what I've always been told or read. I probably shouldn't have used the word"limited", it is likely the case that they're slow to accelerate up to 125mph
@@Rail_Focus wasn’t wanting be to the typical correcting Anorak type 😂 was just wondering because every video by anyone I’ve ever seen talking about the IETs have said 110 in Diesel, mainly why I was so surprised doing 125 on the GWML haha
Someone else pointed it out as well. I don't mind people correcting information, although I am a little frustrated I got it wrong on the first place 😉
Nice ❤
Really wish they hadn’t gone with the same terrible bike storage as GWR 😭
Absolutely, it looks horrendous to use
1:05 The 810s have about 45 extra horsepower
Thanks
Are they the same seats as class 390?
Not sure tbh. Did they change the 390 seats during the refurb?
@@Rail_Focusyes and they are the same seats as found on the refurbished class 390s
What’s the air conditioning like? Voyagers are pretty poor. Memories of a disinfectant smell. Think they sorted that out but are still musty.
No smell and the temperature seemed to be just right.
7 minutes longer. Engines are uprated. Avanti has learned lessons from previous class 8xx units.
7 minutes? Avanti are keeping that quiet. They said no difference when I asked them 😬
The difference between the 805 timing and the 390 timing is around 7 - 10 minutes currently (I think), but the new MU speed profile should reduce that to about 5 minutes. The reason there is reportedly no change is they have already been running the timetable to the 805 timing for many months now, another consequence of introduction being delayed
So their social media person wasn't lying, just bending the truth
They better not replace the pendolinos on the wcml intercity service until full extra roll out and the loss of tilt can be mitigated by speed improvements over the straighter sections!!!
The 805s will be used for North Wales Coast and Chester, whilst the 807 will work the new Liverpool-Euston service and Glasgow-Euston via New Street service
in Britain bringing something new in is always behind schedule. and has faults or short sightedness in number of coaches etc whoever are the designers thesedays dont understand trains i my opinion..then again maybe its do do with the spreadsheet managers
10 cars is unfortunately the maximum that can be accommodated on the North Wales Coast and trains do need to split at Chester so this was the best compromise in this instance
Why can't they just be Class 802? What's the difference between 802 and 805?
Good question. Same number of carriages and same engine rating afaik. Can't really think if or how they're technically different.
@@Rail_Focus
If I'm not mistaken, one big difference is that 800/801/802 have 26m coaches and the other variants like 805/807/810 have 23m coaches.
Why can’t we build comfy train seats!!!
Why can’t we have the same seats as in the intercity 225s and HSTs.
It really shouldn’t be this hard.
It’s a seat for goodness sake.
firesafety regulations
Not, DfT excuse
To be fair the seats on the 805s are okay. The original IETs suffered from DfT interference, with the excuse being "fire safety". I'm not so sure why TPE ordered such awful seats, as there are clearly seats which meet regulations which are comfortable.
@@Rail_Focus Probably didn't realise just how bad they were and were trying to save costs somewhere or another
I think crash survival also was considered hence higher back and different back profile.
I'm still mystified by Avanti's decision to replace the previous seating used on the Virgin Trains with these far inferior ones. They are not as comfortable for the long distance services and are already fraying.
Possibly don't make the seats anymore, or the old ones took up.too much room
Great vid. Can you store bikes in the disabled section when they are empty. 221's really are useless for cycles
I don't think so. You have to book so I'm assuming they only allow as many biles as can be stored in the cycle storage areas. I'm hoping there's more than 1 area, as 2 spaces would be woeful
@@Rail_Focus Four spaces for bikes, two in Coach B and two in Coach D.
Ngl they're all the same but with different class number
But the seats are definitely better than other 8XXs
I’d like them more if they yellow fronts
🙃
Looks better without the yellow
The "window seat " at 2:55 has no window. There is no excuse for this.
Still no solution to the large
step gap, and the inherently bad ride quality.
Bi-mode makes no sense on this route. There is a lot of mass ie expensive equipment, being carried around "dead" all the time. This must give rise to unnecessary extra capital and running costs.
Engines are required from Crewe to Holyhead which is not yet electrified. It's almost a 50/50 split so definitely worth using the overhead wires on the WCML.
@@Rail_Focus
There is no need for dual mode on this route. You have a locomotive change at Crewe. Push from Euston, pull from Crewe, reverse in the opposite direction. You can also split the train if there is less traffic beyond Crewe. The carriages can be 35 tons instead of 45, which causes much less damage to the track. I understand that there are concerns about the effect of the Hitachi trains on the track. They are a weird design anyway, with a lot of overhang beyond the bogies at each end. They look unstable and prone to yawing. It probably explains the dreadful ride quality and the poor state of the track on the GW main line, which is going to cost a lot of money to put right.
You never see such a configuration with 26 metre vehicles on the continent; the tapered outer ends are almost useless.
The splitting operation should take no more than 4 minutes. It is the same as what the Southern has been doing for the past 100 years - twice an hour in each direction as Haywards Heath. London Transport allowed 4 minutes for the locomotive change at Rickmansworth.
What is wrong with diesel under the wires anyway? The energy still has to come from somewhere and the thermal efficiency of diesel is higher.
Dual mode is a silly fad which involves installing expensive kit and dragging it around out of use half the time. I am astonished the engineers, managers and accountants have allowed themselves to be taken in.
Having travelled extensively in the UK during a visit last week, my general impression of the trains and rolling stock is the newer, the worse, but things are not much better in Europe.