We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we forget God's leading and His teaching in our past history. Contend for the faith once delivered to the apostles and hold fast to that which is true.
"If a brother differs with you on some points of truth, do not stoop to ridicule; do not place him in a false light or misconstrue his words, making sport of them; do not misinterpret his words and wrest them of their true meaning. This is not conscientious argument. Do not present him before others as a heretic, when you have not with him investigated his positions, taking the Scriptures text by text in the spirit of Christ to show him what is truth. You do not yourself really know the evidence he has for his faith, and you cannot clearly define your own position. Take your Bible, and in a kindly spirit weigh every argument that he presents and show him by the Scriptures if he is in error. When you do this without unkind feelings, you will do only that which is your duty and the duty of every minister of Jesus Christ." (Lt21-1888)
Pray for the Holy Spirit, not to the Holy Spirit - "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" - Luke 11:13
I believe in the God-head. I believe that God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and God the Father are distinct individuals and yet are one in action, word and thought.
@@User-f2f2vyou don’t understand because you don’t want to, when Jesus was baptized He was out of the water but He spoke from heaven and said, This is MY SON? That was 2 places!
Are we not misrepresenting the people on this topic? Is it helpful to discuss this topic when both panel members have the same views? Have we tried to approach one of the leading voices of this one true God movement to a discussion and they refused? I would like to hear from both sides rather than having a one dimensional conversation which is not solving any problem
"...as to the Being of God,-the Godhead,-Divinity as revealed in the Father, the Word (the Son), and the Holy Spirit, we [SDAs] believe and teach just what the Bible says, and nothing else. No man can by searching find out God. No creature can understand the Almighty to perfection. The finite mind cannot comprehend infinity..." ---E. J. Waggoner, The Present Truth for 1902 - Vol. 18 - No. 06, pg. 83)
“YOU ASK WHAT WE TEACH ABOUT THE TRINITY. INASMUCH AS WE FIND NO SUCH EXPRESSION IN THE SCRIPTURE, WE DO NOT TEACH ANYTHING ABOUT IT. BUT as to the Being of God,-the Godhead,-Divinity as revealed in the Father, the Word (the Son), and the Holy Spirit, we believe and teach just what the Bible says, and nothing else. No man can by searching find out God. No creature can understand the Almighty to perfection. The finite mind cannot comprehend infinity. THEREFORE, IN DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE TRINITY, ABOUT THE NATURE OF GOD, CHRIST AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, ARE MANIFESTATIONS OF GROSS PRESUMPTION. (E.J. Waggoner “”The Editor’s Private Corner. The Spirit that Witnesses” The Present Truth 18, 6. 1902)
How are we to be one as The Father and Son are one as Jesus prayed in John 17 if they are One being? That is weird. I do not think there is any other biblical definition of being one given except that and the answer and fulfillment of Jesus' prayer in Acts 1, and 2 and throughout the new testament in regards to Jesus'Church. We are not to take away from or add to the scriptures, we are warned severely about that. But teaching the Trinity always seems to involve both.
How do we understand these verses in contrast to what wolberg said about John 17:3 ??? Jesus speaking again: Message to the Church in Philadelphia 7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. ****12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.***
There was never a time when Christ was not in close fellowship with the Father. True. Did time always exist? I'm just asking because I believe time itself was created.
There should not be an either or dilemma between believing Jesus is truly God's son and him being fully divine and God . He is the fully Divine Son of God, actually called the Mighty God by the Almighty God. in Isaiah 9:6 and other verses. He identified himself to Moses like this: I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God...13And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations" And Moses, Joshua and the Elders saw the God of Israel in Exodus 24. Never the less Jesus refers to his Father as " My God" and always does what pleases his Father... The Father and Son are equal but have different roles. Jesus sits at the right hand of his Father, not vice versa. I don't understand why that's so hard to comprehend?
BEWARE THAT WE DO NOT MISS THE ISSUES 1. The issue is not that Jesus is not God. Jesus is God by nature - same nature and character as His Father. But Jesus has a God who begot Him (John 1:14). Jesus has a God who anoints Him (Heb.1:9). Jesus has a God who appoints Him (Heb. 1:2). Jesus has a God who sends Him (John 17:18). Jesus has a God whose will He does (John 6:38). Jesus has a God who reveals things to Him (John 5:20). Jesus has a God who gives Him power (1 Cor. 15:27). There is concern that Jesus is being diminished. Really? It is the Father who is being diminished. He dwells in light that no man can approach unto (1 Tim. 6:16). No one anoints Him. No one appoints Him. No one sends Him. No one reveals anything to Him. No one instructs Him (Isa. 40:13). He does the will of no one but His own will. No one gives Him power. He can swear by none greater than Himself (Heb. 6:13). It is His name that the saved will have written in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1). The entire family in heaven and in earth is named after Him (Eph. 3:15). 2. The issue is not that the Father and Son are not one in the sense of being united. Jesus and His Father are one in the same sense that Jesus prayed that His disciples should be one - “that they may be one, even as we are one” (John 17:22). The Father and Son are one in the sense of being united, but they are not one in the sense of being one God. We are one with Christ and through Christ we will be one with the Father - “I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one” (John 17:23), but we will never be one God with the Father. 3. The issue is not that the Holy Spirit is not a person separate from God and Christ. Rather, it is that The Holy Spirit is sent by God and not a co-equal with God; and there is no biblical precedent of anyone worshipping the Holy Spirit. 4. God gave His only begotten Son to die for us. It was not an eternal God who cannot die, who simply came and appeared to die but, in reality, cannot die. 5. The Trinity concept is not simply that there is a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit who are united. The Trinity concept is that the three are the one God. The Bible does not teach that the one God is three persons. Rather the Bible teaches that there is one supreme Being who is above all, and whose will governs the universe - One God and Father of all, who is above all” (Eph. 4:6). The relationship between Pharaoh and Joseph illustrates the relationship between God and Christ - one is the supreme ruler and the other is like the Prime Minister - “And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See, I have set thee over all the land of Egypt. And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck; And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee: and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt. And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I am Pharaoh, and without thee shall no man lift up his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.” (Gen. 41:41-44). Joseph was not Pharaoh, but he was like Pharaoh, with similar authority because Pharaoh so determined. Likewise, God is the Supreme Being, with Jesus being Michael - the one who is like God, because God, his Father has so appointed Him. The pioneers had it right, the apostles had it right, the Jews had it right - that there was one supreme Being, who sent His Son into the world. Why should God’s people today abandon the pioneers, the apostles and the Jews and embrace the popular view of paganism, Catholism and apostate Protestantism? We have a choice to come to the Father through Christ or we can do otherwise to our own confusion and peril. The choice is ours.
But although Christ's divine glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man. The human did not take the place of the divine, nor the divine of the human. This is the mystery of godliness. The two expressions "human" and "divine" were, in Christ, closely and inseparably one, and yet they had a distinct individuality.{5BC 1129.3} Your statements are in the context of Christ's incarnation.
@@Patel-ce4vc Not quite. The Father "anointed" His Son before the incarnation - "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows" (Heb.1:8, 9). Even as God, the Son has a God who anoints Him.
@@ElijahAndMosesJesus was anointed at his baptism. So the context was his incarnation . In A.D. 27, Jesus at His baptism received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, and soon afterward began His yyministry. Then the message was proclaimed, “The time is fulfilled.” The Desire of Ages, 232-234.
In the future @Ivor Myers, is there a way your team could increase the volume? I rather have to turn down the volume cause too much rather than trying to find ways to hear cause volume is too low. Please and thank you 💝💝💝.
We need to go back to round table Bible studybon this issue in all our churches to understand truth. Then we will be more aligned. Scripture cannot be broken.
"The world was made by him, “and without him was not anything made that was made.” If Christ made all things, he existed before all things. The words spoken in regard to this are so decisive that no one need be left in doubt. Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense." {RH April 5, 1906, par. 6} Christ Jehovah is eternal.
Two beloved brothers! We appreciate you for all the good work you have and are doing. In this discussion you say many good things that true hearted disciples of Jesus and students of the Bible do agree on together. But often throughout you take turns sounding like scratching nails on a chalk board! So wrong! May the spirit of Jesus (1 Peter 1:11) correct you sooner rather than later.🙏
Amen! The majority of Adventist will be shaken out, they think it will be nontrinitarians, we are not the majority and will never be! Jesus said they will put you out of the Synagogue, I was put out a few weeks ago for speaking against the trinity. No one will listen, pastors or congregations.
The context is Godhead...3 distinct, individuals...one in Unity, purpose and execution...the Oneness is not numerical... according to the Hebrew word " Ahad. "...Blessings family...good work ☺️☺️
Some anti-trinity folk claim to be Seventh-day Adventist yet will not accept Ellen White's definition of the Godhead. The eternal Godhead-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost-is involved in the action required to make assurance to the human agent.”-Upward Look, 148.
@Mandy-yv4sf What an oxymoron. You are very close to the truth now. Are you aware that the Trinity is the central doctrine of the Catholic Church? Are you aware that ever since the Trinity doctrine was introduced in the fourth century it was the primary source of great schisms and persecutions, merciless massacres of those who held to the bible teaching of One true God and one Lord? Those who rejected the Trinity were enemies of Rome and remain so today. So let no man deceive you, Rome is behind the Trinity doctrine and against antitrinitarians not the other way round.
@@User-f2f2v that's not Ellen White's definition. That's Leroy Froom's definition. Do not be deceived. It is clear you don't study all Ellen White's writings without blinkers. Besides, it is not Ellen White's definition that counts but Bible definition. The word Godhead does not come from Ellen White but from the Bible so if not clear just refer back to the bible and let the bible be its own expositor. It is clear you are not aware that Ellen White warned about men who will write books in her name and change her writings.
Peace is quoted out of convenience. Jesus said also I came not to bring peace but a sword (the word that pierces...unto joint and marrow). How can we reject the Catholics ecumenical movement if we as a church are accepting of every belief and doctrine? There has to be dispute when there is error in the church. God told EGW to meet the error of Kellogg. We must meet the error and not keep silent.
We are TAKING PART in the Pontifs ecumenical movement! Our world church is a member of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. A church must be trinitarian to even get close to that, as it's a catholic organization. We are also a member of the World Council of Churches, who's membership also requires a trinitarian doctrine. That was actually one of LeRoy Frooms goals in bringing in the trinity. Check out Adventist Review online, October 9, 2015, an article about the UN and ecumenical meetings.
In Genesis the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. That is enough for me. The incidence with Ananias and his wife lying to the Holy Spirit, is more than enough for me
What is enough for you in saying the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters? If you think that's evidence of triune God when the Bible plainly says God is the Father then seal yourself with half truth which is not truth.
My hope in leaving this comment is to edify the church and shine a light on a perspective that I think is inadvertently swept under the rug which is liberty of conscience. The Adventist church was founded on sola scriptura. That is what I love about it and that is what the Lord intended to raise up in the midst of multiple counterfeit churches. When our fundamental beliefs were first established they stated: “Seventh-day Adventists have no creed but the Bible.” So all our doctrine is based on our understanding of the scriptures. Now when the church leadership starts to impose beliefs that go contrary to what the Bible says then we need to ask ourselves who do we follow? I’ll give you an example when it comes to the subject of the Godhead and what has been said: 1. They chose roles 2. The word Son is a metaphor 3. To be God you must have no beginning 4. They are 1 but they are really 3, but no they are really 1 5. The Holy Spirit is not the Spirit of Christ yet its the Spirit of God These are all points made by church leadership. But I can’t just blindly accept these as facts as they are not clearly defined and laid out in Spirit of Prophecy or scripture. Instead I should be allowed liberty of conscience. I listened to a conference SDA pastor speak publicly on the “Godhead” issue that was dividing the church and he had the best reaction to the division it was causing. He quoted from the book of Acts: Acts 5:38-39 (KJV) 38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God. In 2020 my local SDA church leadership had a closed session and voted to not give me any leadership positions or allow me to speak in church because I started to study the subject of the Godhead and did not come to the same conclusions as the church. They did this without ever visiting my house, calling me or taking the time to sit with me. I look back and what I’m most saddened about is that a church is supposed to be a family. But when an establishment is threatened you are no longer viewed as family but as disposable. With that being said, we need to study the word, we need to be led by the Spirit, we need to have oil in our lamps! Probation is closing soon, our focus should not be on 1, 2 or 3. Our focus should be is HOW DOES CHRIST ABIDE IN MY HEART? Because the oil is what will keep us out. If you focus on that, you will come to an understanding that surpasses any doctrine that may be laid out by finite man. Blessings all🙏🏼
@@powerofthelamb I understand that these things were said because the persons that said it believe it to be true. And there are many things said by different religions that they believe to be true and they will even use scripture to prove that they are true. But we know we must use the whole Bible to establish truth, precept upon precept, line upon line. The points that I referenced cannot be found in scripture, they cannot be found in spirit of prophecy. They are conclusions made based on a preconceived understanding. Because of this, I should be allowed to study the Bible and have liberty of conscience to see if I agree with these statements. The gospel has to be so clearly defined that even a child can understand it. When I was first studying this topic, I was still on the fence. I was open for the truth no matter what it was. I love my Church and I always will. There was a girl about ten years old who asked me out of nowhere how is Jesus God? She was a young girl who loved to study and would preach in the church. And instead of giving her the answer I said, you know the answer. She paused for a second, with wide eyes and an excited face she said to me “ah yes because he’s the son of God.” Out of the mouth of babes, Pastor.
You are right, I had said a few things to some in the church and they told the pastor, so the pastor and elders held a meeting and decided that I needed to go, they are in the process of disfellowshipping me! I stand for truth and pray that I will never go back!🙏🏼
@@deer.7304 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins *but God* only? {Mark 2:7} Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, *God with us* {Matthew 1:23} And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: *God* was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. {1 Timothy 3:16} “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” {John 10:11} ... “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.” {John 10:14} The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want... {Psalm 23:1a} I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no Saviour. {Isaiah 43:11} And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. {John 20:28} Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. {Isaiah 48:12} And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; "I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, *and was dead* and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.” {Revelation 1:18} Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: {Philippians 2:5-6} For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; {Colossians 1:16-19} But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, *from everlasting* {Micah 5:2}
@@deer.7304 And the LORD said, *My Spirit shall not always strive with man* for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. {Genesis 6:3} They angered him also at the waters of strife, so that it went ill with Moses for their sakes: *Because they provoked his Spirit* so that he spake unadvisedly with his lips. {Psalm 106:33} In all their affliction he was afflicted, and *the angel of his presence* saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, *and vexed his holy Spirit* therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. {Isaiah 63:9-10} (Ps 78:40-41) *The Spirit of God hath made me* and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. {Job 33:4} Cast me [David] not away *from thy presence* and take not *thy holy Spirit* from me. {Psalm 51:11} (The holy Spirit is omnipresent) Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. {Psalm 139:7-10} Then was *Jesus led up of the Spirit* into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. {Matthew 4:1} “And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: *but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him* neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” {Matthew 12:32} (Mark 3:28-29) “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you *another* [of the same kind] Comforter that he may abide with you for ever; Even *the Spirit of truth* whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; *for he dwelleth with you* and shall be in you.” {John 14:16-17} "But the Comforter, which is *the Holy Ghost* whom the Father will send in my name, *he shall teach you* all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever *I have said* unto you.” {John 14:26} “But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, *he shall testify* of me:” {John 15:26-27} “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, *the Comforter* will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when *he* is come, *he* will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:” {John 16:7-8} (This is why grieving the holy Spirit cannot be forgiven if we do not allow him to convict us of our unrighteousness.) (The holy Spirit is omniscient) “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, *he will guide you into all truth* for *he shall not speak of himself* but whatsoever *he shall hear* that *shall he speak* and *he will shew you* things to come.” {John 16:13} And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, *as the Spirit gave them utterance* {Acts 2:4} (read verses 1-3 also for context) (The holy Spirit is omnipotent) But Peter said, Ananias, why hath satan filled thine heart *to lie to the Holy Ghost* and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? *thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God* And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. {Acts 5:3-5} [Steven] Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, *ye do always resist the Holy Ghost* as your fathers did, so do ye. {Acts 7:51} Then *the Spirit said unto Philip* Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. {Acts 8:29} While Peter thought on the vision, *the Spirit said unto him* Behold, three men seek thee. Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: *for I have sent them* {Acts 10:19-20} As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, *the Holy Ghost said* Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. {Acts 13:2} For *it seemed good to the Holy Ghost* and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; {Acts 15:28} Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, *and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia* After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: *but the Spirit suffered them not* {Acts 16:7-8} *The Spirit itself* beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: {Romans 8:16} Likewise *the Spirit* also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but *the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us* with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints *according to the will of God* {Romans 8:26-27} Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, *and for the love of the Spirit* that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me; {Romans 15:30} And *grieve not the holy Spirit of God whereby ye are sealed* unto the day of redemption. {Ephesians 4:30} But God hath revealed them unto us *by his Spirit* for *the Spirit searcheth all things* yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, *but the Spirit of God* {1 Corinthians 2:10-11} But all these worketh that *one and the selfsame Spirit* dividing to every man severally *as he will* For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For *by one Spirit* are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into *one Spirit* {1 Corinthians 12:11-13} Now *the Spirit speaketh expressly* that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; {1 Timothy 4:1} Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. {Hebrews 3:7-9} How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through *the eternal Spirit* offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? {Hebrews 9:14} Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? {Hebrews 10:29} “He that hath an ear, let him hear what *the Spirit* saith unto the churches.” {Revelation 2:7; 2:11; 2:17; 2:29; 3:6; 3:13; 3:22} And *the Spirit* and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. {Revelation 22:17}
I appreciate the attempt to have this very complex topic clarified. Most times, I realize pastors and scholars try to use theology and human reasoning to understand the Godhead. We also try to use the Spirit of Prophecy books to clarify certain topics. However, I believe certain scriptural passages are written for a reason. Firstly, if scripture is written without the guide of the Holy Spirit, then the devil would have calculated God's plan of redemption and destroy it. 1 Corinthians 2.8 says, "None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." One of the most important components to understand God is to have His Spirit - the Holy Spirit. See Apostle Paul and John and other Holy men were driven by the Holy Spirit to write the scripture. I asked each one of us to ask for the Holy spirit in the name of Jesus Christ so we can understand these things. "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side has made Him known." John 1.18.
The narrative got out of hand, but that doesn't make Christianity untrue... Clement trained by Peter, recognized in Philippians 4:3 By Paul, ran the first church in Rome 60-90AD 1 Clement 59:4. "Let all the Gentiles know that 🫱Thou art the God alone, and ✌️Jesus Christ is Thy Son. Irenaeus~ Against Heresies 3.9.1 (180-200AD) The Lord Himself handing down to His disciples, that He, the Father, is the 🫱only God and Lord, who alone is "God and ruler of all"… Two separate individuals just like King Charles and Prince William. 200-400 years AFTER the apostles, new converts imposed the Pre-flood Hindu mystery Trinity, without Apostolic procession or a Biblical framework to match. BTW🇺🇲 America's Only been a country 247 Years, and we definitely are NOT "early Americans"?!
I thought a debate was to present both sides so people could make an informed decision. This was not a debate. As the late Neal Wilson said, "SDA church is the next great Catholic church". A man at the head, trinity, commanding to abstain from meats meant to be received(clean).
I believe this would be better received, if there was the opposition belief to debate with. The pioneers prayed earnestly and had discussion’s with each other to reach their conclusions led by the spirit. No discussion with one another means no progress for those who may or may not be misled, god loves all and died for all.
I agree that both sides should be presented and the leaders of the one true God side have offered and are willing but so far no Trinity leader has offered to come forward. Let's be careful on saying who died . It was the Son of God who was indeed both Devine and human who died. God the Father cannot die.
We got to be careful of calling the spirit of God a third person because we have a problem with how many spirits are there?... King James Bible God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.....John 6:63-70 King James Version 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
"I entreat every one to be clear and firm regarding the certain truths that we have heard and received and advocated. The statements of God's Word are plain. Plant your feet firmly on the platform of etemal truth. Reject every phase of error, even though it be covered with a semblance of reality, which denies the personality of God and of Christ .” Ellen G. White, RH, August 31, 1905
SDAs don’t deny the personalities of any of the three persons of the Godhead. Three personalities; and these three personalities are the pledged power from God that His people shall have, if they have been baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 21LtMs, Ms 139, 1906, par. 15 What about non trinitarians, do they believe in the above statement? Or do they often baptize in the name of Jesus only and claim that the threefold name which comprises the three living persons of the Trio is NOT the name that we should be baptized in?
There you have it folks. The denial is that there is no distinction of there being one who is the true living God and denying Jesus own words in John 17:3 That the Father is the one true God by saying “what about Jesus, He is the true living God.” This is the denial Chris. The Father says He has a Son, but man make it to say he didn’t have Son but a co-eternal twin that has the title or role of a son which makes God a liar. “If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: *he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son* . (1 John 5:9-10) Be careful in the way you walk because this was the way of Kellogg, who used Ellen White to justify his own erroneous theories. The context is baptism not the personality of God and of Christ.
Chris, she still believed in a personal God. Not in today’s belief in God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. “Before he left them, Christ gave his followers a positive promise that after his ascension he would send them the Holy Spirit. “ *Go ye therefore,” he said, “and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father [a personal God,] and of the Son [a personal Prince and Saviour], and of the Holy Ghost [sent from heaven to represent Christ* ]: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, *lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.* ” HM July 1, 1897, Art. A, par. 16 This is how she understood the Heavenly Trio: “Let them be thankful to God for His manifold mercies and be kind to one another. *They have one God and one Saviour; and one Spirit-the Spirit of Christ* -is to bring unity into their ranks.” SpTB04 23.3
@@pilgrimsprogress6797 we believe that God the Father is a distinct person from God the Son and God the Holy Spirit as well. When we say God in three persons it is referring to the fact that the Godhead is just one Godhead comprised of three persons. Note that even the authors that anti trinitarians profess to revere would agree on this point: “MC Wilcox on "one God": "Deut. 6:4 is simply an expression of the unity of the Godhead : "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." Many times, when mention is made of God, it simply implies the Godhead. Of course, there is absolute unity in that, just as truly as though there were but one Person; and therefore it is spoken of as one." Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: Deuteronomy 6:4 This union between the Father and the Son does not detract from either, but strengthens both. Through it, in connection with the Holy Spirit, we have all of DEITY. Uriah Smith {1898 UrS, LUJ 17.1} The Holy Spirit united with the Father and the Son to create the world, as He still unites with them to save each soul,-three glorious persons in one only God over all, blessed for ever.” L Gaussen Present Truth 6/28/1900
@@pilgrimsprogress6797 what’s wrong w coeternal? Doesn’t Inspiration teach that all three dignitaries are eternal? The eternal heavenly dignitaries-God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit-arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, ... would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.-Manuscript 130, 1901. Ev 616.4
1. Does God change? Malachi 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever.
2. Can God lie? Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, that thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3. Jesus says that the testimony of the FATHER is true. John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. John 5:36 But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
4. What is the testimony of GOD THE FATHER? 1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
5. GOD THE FATHER said Jesus is His beloved Son. Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. Luke 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. Romans 1:3 Concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
6. What were the chosen disciples to be witnesses of? They were the chosen repositories of the truth of God. They were witnesses of the Father’s acknowledgment of Jesus as the Son of God. At the baptism of Christ they had heard the voice of the Father proclaiming: “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” On the mount of transfiguration they had beheld the excellent glory clothing the Saviour with the brightness of the sun. They had seen the Heavenly messengers conversing with the Saviour, and heard again the voice of God declare: “This is my beloved Son, hear him.” In the temple, only a few hours before, they had again heard the Father exalt and glorify his Son. That which these favored disciples had seen and felt and heard in regard to the Redeemer they were commissioned to testify for the benefit of humanity through all time. And, by living faith, men must lay hold of Christ through the evidence of these chosen witnesses of his divinity, and power unto salvation. {ST January 24, 1878, par. 10} 1st. (Baptism - Matthew 3:17 “And lo a voice from heaven, saying, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”) 2nd. (Transfiguration - Matthew 17:5 “While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.” Luke 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, this is my beloved Son: hear him.) 3rd. (Temple - John 12:28 “Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, [saying], I have both glorified [it], and will glorify [it] again.”) The testimony of Almighty God having been given, the cloud lifted and scattered in the heavens. The visible communion between the Father and the Son was ended for that time. {3SP 78.3} Some solemnly declared their faith in Jesus as the Son of God, while others tried to explain away the remarkable scene they had just witnessed. {3SP 79.1} The voice of God had been heard at the baptism of Jesus at the commencement of his ministry, and again at his transfiguration on the mount; and now, at the close of his ministry, it was heard for the third time, and on this occasion by a larger number of persons and under peculiar circumstances. He had just uttered the most solemn truths regarding the condition of the Jews. He had made his last appeal, and pronounced their doom. The wall of partition between Jew and Gentile was tottering and ready to fall at the death of Christ. {3SP 79.2}
7. King Nebuchadnezzar declared he saw the Son of God. Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. 26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the Most High God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.
8. The apostles believed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God and they taught it. Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. Mark 8:29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ. Luke 9:20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. John 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God. John 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, we have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ. John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. Peter had expressed the faith of the twelve. {DA 412.1} The truth which Peter had confessed is the foundation of the believer’s faith. {DA 412.3} Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. John 4:29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ? John 4:42 And said unto the woman, now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. John 7:41 Others said, this is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee? Acts 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. 2 Corinthians 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, [even] by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
9. Martha believed that Jesus was the Son of God. John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
10. The eunuch was not hindered (prevented) to be baptized for he confessed and believed Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Acts 8:36 And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
11. The fallen angels said Jesus was the Son of God. Matthew 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, what have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? At the name of Christ, even the devils believe, and tremble. They acknowledge that He is the Son of God, and yet they are devils still, and how greatly this increases their condemnation! {Lt 32, 1903, par. 5} Mark 3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God. Mark 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, what have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. Luke 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, what have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God Most High? I beseech thee, torment me not. Luke 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking [them] suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
This is such a deception by the enemy of our souls to cause such CONFUSION and distraction. All we have to do is believe what the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy says on this topic of the Holy Spirit and not try to overthink and take out context what the word of God says. Whatever the Lord did not reveal regarding the Holy Spirit leave it alone. Can you figure God out? The answer is No, so just accept what the Bible and what the pen of inspiration says. You are treading on dangerous grounds if you are even listening to the error. Jesus is truly coming when we see all these erroneous teachings out there. And the sad thing is they don’t even see their error nor humble enough to recant their errors. May the Lord help us all to know what we believe from the word of God. Saints of God do not listen to error especially if you are a new believer or if you are not settled into the foundational truth that we believe as SDA’s. Ask God to show you who’s speaking, if it’s Christ or the devil. Resist the devil,and he will flee from you. The pioneers listened and accepted correction when they were wrong and humbled themselves and stood corrected. So I don’t understand why our brethren in error don’t humble themselves and do the same. Let’s pray for those in error as they are our dear brothers and friends that are getting caught up in these errors. 🙏🏻 one thing I see that happen to some who has gotten caught up in error is that they eventually leave the faith or give up on God. 😢 if you don’t believe that the Holy Spirit is a person then How can He help you when the Bible says that He’s our comforter and helper?Mercy. Why not teach people how to have victory over sin and to be like Jesus rather than running around trying to convince the entire church into believing what you think is truth when if you think about it, you could be committing blasphemy. If anyone who once believed that the Holy Spirit is a person and has turned away from this belief Please Listen to your brethren that’s sharing this message on this video and don’t let pride stop you from returning back to the truth. 🙏🏻Jesus loves you and says come now let us reason saith the Lord. But come with open mind and hearts to hear the voice of the Lord. He truly loves you and don’t want you to be lost. All I want is to know the Lord more. I’m not going to get caught up in this because we have no time to waste on debates. Jesus is coming let’s get ready, be ready and stay ready. Maranatha. Be faithful! Thank you pastors for sharing this message, I pray that it save many souls from falling into the snare of satan.
The enemy doesn't want the old truth to be revealed. The truth established by God through the pioneers in fundamental principles of 1872 remains the biblical truth of the apostles. It never changes. The Trinity came as apostasy and we must expose it for what it is. Let's go back to our true Adventists position which is the biblical position: the non- trinitarian position.
@@larrybedouin2921 knowing God is knowing the Father and the Son, that the Father is the only true God and Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who came in the flesh to save that which was lost, in accordance to the scriptures. It is unbelievable that with all the evidence given in the scriptures, Adventists would see things in the same light with papists.
@@Cryaloud Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of *the great God* and our Saviour Jesus Christ; {Titus 2:13} καὶ σωτήρ < "and Savior" is a conjunction/cumulative to the great God... You have the spirit of antichrist.
Temple of God the Holy Ghost Compare 1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? With 2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Conclusion: The Holy Ghost is the living God.
"The HOLY SPIRIT is the SPIRIT of CHRIST, which is sent to all men to give them sufficiency,” - MR 14, p. 84 “We want the HOLY SPIRIT, which is JESUS CHRIST.” - Letter 66, April 10, 1894 “but it is the leaven of the SPIRIT of JESUS CHRIST, which is sent down from heaven, called the HOLY GHOST,” - Manuscript 36-1891
@@lesirterholland5186If you don't believe in the Holy Spirit you cannot be saved and off you are not saved you are lost and just being used by the devil!!!
@@lesirterholland5186The Holy Spirit personifies Christ. He is Christ's representative but a different Person. The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, in Christ’s name. He personifies Christ, yet is a distinct personality. We may have the Holy Spirit if we ask for it and make it [a] habit to turn to and trust in God rather than in any finite human agent who may make mistakes. Ms93.1893.8 We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.-Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616.5}
The title of this video presentation is disingenuous. This was not a debate, but rather two men agreeing with each other's point of view. Ivor and Steve, if you are really honest men arrange a real debate or a symposium where One True God proponents are invited to participate.
I agree, but I'd add that the discussion/debate/Q&A should be open to everyone as Trinity vs OTG is a false dichotomy of philosophical theories that reject the simple truth that God is a spirit.
There is no debate in the church, just like there is no debate in the OTG movement. SDAism has become a closed system of divisive dogmatic belief and creed rather than a fellowship of the holy spirit.
@powerofthelamb Respectfully, if you really want to address the ongoing debate within the church, a symposium should be arranged as prescribed in the Spirit of Prophecy. If a brother differs with you on some points of truth, do not stoop to ridicule; do not place him in a false light or misconstrue his words, making sport of them; do not misinterpret his words and wrest them of their true meaning. This is not conscientious argument. Do not present him before others as a heretic, when you have not with him investigated his positions, taking the Scriptures text by text in the spirit of Christ to show him what is truth. You do not yourself really know the evidence he has for his faith, and you cannot clearly define your own position. Take your Bible, and in a kindly spirit weigh every argument that he presents and show him by the Scriptures if he is in error. When you do this without unkind feelings, you will do only that which is your duty and the duty of every minister of Jesus Christ. Letter 21 1888 par 28.
"The doctrine of the trinity is true when rightly understood [or taught in the true way]." --Stephen N. Haskell (SDA pioneer), The Bible Training School, Feb. 1906, pg. 156
@@chrischung2365 The narrative got out of hand but it doesn't make Christianity untrue.... G💡D, "did not" come down AND get "tempted", from a creature "he made", with everything he ALREADY OWNS? God doesn't grow in favor, "with God". God doesn't "anoint" God. 🙄Watch ISAIAH 53 FALL FLAT: According to Isaiah chapter 53, YaH Rewards Yeshua, The Suffering-Son-of-Man Servant, With Spoils, wait what? Does God reward "himself" a great name & spoils? Make it make sense, we've repackaged God's son to be the maker of heaven and Earth over God are we serious? John 20:17 Jesus said Iam ascending to🫴My Father" and 👉"Your Father", and to 🫴My God AND 👉your God. John 17:3 "Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the 🫴only true God, 👉and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent." Also count 2 Separate Thrones👇 Rev 3:21 KJV Jesus says.. To him that overcomith , will I grant to sit with me on 🤴🏻"My Throne"; even as I also overcame, and set down with 👑"my father" on his throne. 2 Separate Thrones.
Please explain how all things were made by Jesus Christ if He didn't always exist. John 1 states this, as well as Paul. Jesus is the Creator of all things. He is the God Genesis 1 speaks of. The Father is not the Jehovah of the Old Testament. Jesus is. That is why He said "before Abraham was I AM". Let me show you the parallels in the Old and New Testament that gives ZERO doubt as to whether or not Jesus is God. ISAIAH 48:12-13 [12] Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the FIRST, I also am the LAST. [13] Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together. REVELATION 1:8 [8] I am ALPHA and OMEGA, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the ALMIGHTY. JOHN 1:3 KJV [3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Jesus is Jehovah in the Old Testament. He is the Almighty. Jesus, in Revelation, was requoting what He told Isaiah. Nobody else can say they are the first and last except God Himself. He is the Creator of all things in the universe. That is why John starts off the book speaking about Jesus in a parallel to Genesis 1:1. He is the God who made heaven and Earth. He is the Word made flesh. He can only be the Word of God if He is the one who spoke it. Every word spoken by God in the Old Testament, was spoken by Jesus. He is only the Lord of the Sabbath because He is the Creator of the Sabbath itself. The Greek word for Lord means "lord, master, guardian, OWNER". You cannot be the owner or master of the Sabbath if you did not make it to begin with. MICAH 5:2 KJV [2] But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of OLD, from EVERLASTING. This is the prophecy about Jesus being born in Bethlehem. It says days are Everlasting, meaning, without beginning or end. ISAIAH 48:17 KJV [17] Thus saith the LORD, thy REDEEMER, the HOLY ONE of ISRAEL; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. Who is the Holy One of Israel? Who is the REDEEMER? It is only Jesus who has redeemed us from sin. He is the Holy One of Israel. Jesus Himself is speaking here as LORD which means in Hebrew, Jehovah or Yahweh. LUKE 4:34 KJV [34] saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the HOLY ONE of GOD. Even the demons recognize that Jesus was the Holy One of Israel. Isaiah says in chapter 9 that the child born to save us is the MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER. Paul says in Philipians 2:6 that Jesus was the very nature of God and it was not robbery to be considered God since He was God. In Hebrews, Paul describes Melchisedec as having neither beginning of days nor end of life, neither having descent or father or mother. He says that He is like the Son of God because of all this. If Jesus is the Son of God, and has neither beginning of days nor father, how can He not be God? Just because Jesus is called the Son of God, does not mean He was created by the Father. He is also the Son of David. Does this mean He is now less than David? NO! Like Brother Meyers said, the Jesus was not the Son of God until He was born as a baby. He was considered the Son of God then because He had to take Adam's place who was also called the Son of God. Jesus was conceived by God, therefore, His human incarnation makes Him the Son of God, the same way that David's blood runs through His veins, making Him the Son of David. Before the incarnation, Jesus was not the Son of God. That is only a term that applied to Jesus being our Savior and Messiah through His incarnation. That is why Nebuchadnezzar said the Son of God was in the furnace. Daniel had told Him about the Messiah. Adam and Eve were told that Jesus would be born to save them. Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world, meaning He had planned His death before creating the world. In this sense, and in this sense only, He was called the Son of God before coming down. The sacrifice He made by becoming one of us is the only reason why Jesus is called the Son of God. Remember how the prophecy for the new temple to be built after the destruction by Babylon stated that the glory of the new would be greater than the glory of the old? Why do you think that is? The old temple had the Ark with the Shekina. The new one did not have an Ark. How was it greater? It is because God Himself with us (Immanuel) walked its halls. There was no need for the Shekina when God was literally there as a person. That is why the veil was rent when Jesus died. He had fulfilled everything that the temple stood for because He was the temple. To say He is not God is to literally deny the God of the Old Testament because He was the God in the burning bush. He was the God on Mt. Sinai. He was the Shekina glory over the Ark. I don't know what greater proof anyone needs that Jesus is God. It is directly stated by Jesus Himself in the Old and New Testaments with the exact same wording and descriptors to let you know it is the REDEEMER of Israel speaking. As for Proverbs 8, that is a gross misinterpretation to say that Solomon is talking about Jesus when it is clearly him speaking of Wisdom. He made Wisdom a person to poetically speak of it. Chapters 8 and 9 personify two different things: Wisdom and Folly. They are both shown as women. To say Jesus is a woman is blasphemous. Jesus is never, ever represented by a women. The church is. These two women are not to represent actual human beings. Solomon merely used metaphorical language here to personify two things men can choose. They can get Wisdom or Folly.
Oh Trinity, the Triune God who are thee and where dwelleth thee? Do you even exist? Those who entered the sanctuary did not find you. The heavens were opened and thrones were revealed, but you were not seen. In you, oh Trinity, there is no absolute truth, all things are relatively mysterious. Those who teach about you claim you can not be understood for you are a mystery. You are worshipped by many in different ways, for you are a social justice legend. You nullified God's perpetual law and those who worship you talk of liberty. In you all sides are equal, there is no male nor female The new age spiritualism is cherished in you and all religions and cultures are embraced as true and relevant. You are the epitomy of Ecumenism and in you there is one rule; "Do as thou wilt". Those who worship you become gods and law unto themselves. But who are you Trinity and where did you come from? From everlasting to everlasting none speaks of you. From the beginning to the end none reveals you. Did the patriarchs and prophets forget to testify about you? Did he who came in flesh forget his mission to speak plainly about you? Where were you when God begat a Son? Where were you when the Father sent his Son on earth. Howbeit he taught us all things, about his one personal father as God Almighty. He revealed the mystery of the Kingdom of God and His Spirit made all things plain. Did he mention that he is the second person of the three-in-one God? Where did the inspired writers record it? He spoke nothing in secret, From the beginning he revealed all mystery to His people and declared Him who is the only true God. Did he forget to mention you, Did he not reveal the mystery of the Trinity? Are you not declared as the mystery of Babylon? Where can I find you, Trinity, and who can declare you but spiritualists? I asked the prophets and they declared the throne revealed in heaven, even the sanctuary above, but you were not there. Daniel the prophet saw the Ancient of Days sitting on the throne, are you the one referred here Trinity? Or maybe you are the Son of man seen by Daniel, do you change from three to one being? Does God change? John the Revelator saw what other prophets saw in Heaven, sadly you were not seen. For He saw him who sat on the throne, not three beings. If the three were now one how come he saw at the same time the Son of man, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, like a Lamb that was slain, standing before the Him who sat on the throne.? Where were you when the Ancient of Days sat down on the throne while the begotten Son stood up at the centre of the throne? Oh Trinity, were you there when the Son of man, the Lamb of God received dominion, and glory, and a kingdom from Him who sat on the throne? Did the Son not receive all things and made equal and to be worshipped like His Father the Almighty God? If so, then where do you fit yourself in this Heavenly Kingdom and as who? Did Stephen declare the Trinity when the heavens were opened before him? “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” Was the God seen here the Triune God without Christ? For the Son was standing besides his Father. Trinity, are you the Father of Christ? Am I wrong to conclude you have given yourself God's position when you are not God the Father but three-in-one God? Did the apostles who witnessed all things that were declared and revealed about God and his Son speak boldly about these things ? They did teach and encourage others about what they saw and what they heard. Unfortunately, Oh Trinity, they declared, "truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." Where were you when God and his Son created all things? Should we listen to you or the command: "Fear God and give Glory to him for his hour of judgement has come"? Should we worship you or him who made heaven and earth and the sea and the fountains of waters? Who are you trinity? Are you not the mystery of iniquity, the confusion of Babylon? Are you not Lucifer himself, that old arch deceiver cast down from heaven for strife to be co-equal with the only begotten Son of God, and to exalt yourself to be the eternal one worshipped like God ? Were you not created by hands of the sons of man? Howbeit the whole world unites in your name to worship you the mystery of Babylon. Are you not an idol made of hands of the stone cutters and ready to be destroyed by a stone cut out without hands? Will you be able to save them who worship you as if you are the Creator? Are they not sons of disobedience who worship a god who is not the Creator? Where were you when God the Father created all things by his Son Jesus Christ? How have you managed to deceive them who are ready to perish with you? By mixing truth with error, in subtilty you have corrupted their minds that they have lost sight of the simplicity of Christ. In fatal disobedience they rejected the light and chose another light of their delusion. Now God will not hold them guiltless; for they knew the true God but chose to worship the creature and imaginations of their minds. Now they destroy the God-given order in the house of the Lord and become like pagans, filling Gods house with false doctrines, with uncleanness, with all creeping things. Are they not raising crosses in their churches casting a cloth unto your likeness the old witty serpent? Are they not ordaining women in the likeness of pagan priestesses, of Ashtoreth, Artemis and all forms of the Queen of Heaven? Oh Trinity, are you not the central doctrine of the Babylonians? Are you not the god of sun worshippers, the very god of Easter and Sunday? The whole ancient world is filled with blood of saints who refused to worship you, the unholy "most holy" Trinity. Three tribes of Rome were destroyed because of you Trinity, and the little horn replaced them in the name of triple power of trinity, the Vicar of Christ. Do we not hear rumblings of Nicaean creed returning in our day? Is it not a call for unity under the trinity? Are they not consolidating power to mercilessly punish them who speak ill against their order? Will history not repeat itself? Yet even so, should commandment-keeping remnant worship the trinity in disobedience to their one true God? Are they not uniting under trinity in disobedience to the command, "Come out of her my people"? Are they not keeping their eyes on Sunday Law and forgetting that God of the Sabbath is the Creator? Like the Jews who rejected Christ and claimed to be keeping the law of God, today they claim to have accepted Christ while rejecting the law. Have they not rejected their one true God and declared their allegiance to the Kings of this world and the god of this world? Will God remain silent with this great apostasy? The Trinity and its connection to Sunday and Easter, echoes the persecutions that followed creeds, decrees and edicts starting from AD 321 and AD 325 by Roman Emperor Constantine. It is indeed part of the mystery religion of Babylon, the sun worship which is the worst apostasy and idolatry that kindles God's wrath. History repeats itself. "You are therefore called to conform your lives more and more to the person and message of Jesus Christ. And never forget that the precise goal of all apostolic service is to lead all people to communion with the Most Holy Trinity." Pope John Paul II, 12 Sept 1987. "Consequently, 'when we contemplate with wonder the universe in all its grandeur and beauty, we must praise the whole Trinity'....Everything is interconnected, and this invites us to develop a spirituality of that global solidarity which flows from the mystery of the Trinity. viii. queen of all Creation 241. Mary, the Mother who cared for Jesus, now cares with maternal affection and pain for this wounded world. Just as her pierced heart mourned the death of Jesus, so now she grieves for the sufferings of the crucified poor and for the creatures of this world laid waste by human power. Completely transfigured, she now lives with Jesus, and all creatures sing of her fairness. She is the Woman, “clothed in the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (Rev 12:1). Carried up into heaven, she is the Mother and Queen of all creation. In her glorif ied body, together with the Risen Christ, part of creation has reached the fullness of its beauty." Pope Francis, 24 May, 2015.
Wonderful conversation. I agree the word Trinity should not be used by SDA's because it is not Biblical. Godhead is what should be used as stated in the Bible. Anything that is generated by the Catholic church that is not biblical should be shunned!! Many are called, few are chosen. Study, study, study to show thyself approved!
@@user-sr9cc2rb9c I don't think that's the position advocated. We have words like medical missionary, health reform, investigative judgement, historicism, etc which are not in the Bible. We can't take the position that these words should not be used because they are extra-biblical
Godhead means divine nature look it up, it does not consist of three called the trinity. John 3:16 clearly reveal how many consist of God spoken by Jesus.
@@powerofthelamb Father and Son only has divine nature the Holy Spirit has a separate divine individual does not exist. How worship must match Heaven there’s not a single verse in the Bible especially in Revelation of the Angels worshipping a Triune God it’s only the one who sits on the throne and the lamb and no one else.
@@powerofthelambwhat does FB #2 say? Pull out a copy and read, pondering each word carefully, and then #3, and #4, and 14 too. This is a trinitarian church, regardless of all their discussions on the godhead. It is deceptive when they say that the Godhead is under attack. They aren't being honest, that it is the F Belief #2 and on, that are the issue.
@@powerofthelamb There is a third person but not a literal third person like many believe, we as Adventist like to use the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy so here you go; the Disciples understood who the Comforter/ Holy Ghost was (identity of the Spirit) they didn’t understand how it will be manifested unto them and not unto the world(nature of the Spirit,which is a mystery) notice:John 14:20-23 KJV “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. [21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I WILL LOVE HIM, AND MANIFEST MYSELF TO HIM. [22] Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, LORD, HOW IS IT THAT THOU(You) WILT MANIFEST THYSELF(YOURSELF) UNTO US, AND NOT UNTO THE WORLD? [23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and MY FATHER will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him.” Father and Son because the Father Spirit dwells in Christ.(John 14:10) When Christ said He will pray to the Father for the Comforter/ Holy Ghost John 17 is that prayer; he was praying for his humanity to be glorified like it was before the world was(John 17:5) that he may dwell in his Disciples by his Spirit like the Father dwelt in him by his Spirit notice: John 17:20-23 KJV “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; [21] That they all may be one; as thou(you), Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they(disciples) also may be one in us(Father and Son): that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. [22] And the glory which thou(you) gavest me I have given them(disciples); that they may be one, even as we are one: [23] I in them, and thou(you)in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou (you)hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou(you) hast loved me.” Christ often spoke in the third person so the “HE” in reference to the Comforter/ Spirit of Truth was referring to himself that’s why Judas Iscariot responded that way. Son of Man, Is it not Christ? Yet he always said HE. Christ is the only one that carry many names and Comforter/Holy Ghost is one of them. Spirit of Prophecy Sister White says in Desire of Ages same book same chapter in reference to the Comforter said; “The disciples still failed to understand Christ's words in their SPIRITUAL SENSE, and again He explained His meaning. By the Spirit, He said, HE would Manifest Himself to them. “The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things.” DA p. 670.1 The Spirit is Christ notice very carefully: “Sin could be RESISTED AND OVERCOME only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead” Only means One Person or Individual; a few sentences later she said this “Christ has given HIS SPIRIT as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil” How can this not be Christ Spirit? This is how I know the Spirit is Christ, Sister White says in DA page 674.2 “The Saviour had been explaining to His disciples His mission to the world, and the SPIRITUAL RELATION to Him which they were to sustain. Now He illustrates the lesson” “But Jesus says, I am the real Vine. Think not that through a connection with Israel you may become partakers of the life of God, and inheritors of His promise. Through Me ALONE is SPIRITUAL LIFE received” DA p.675.1 “The branch becomes a part of the living vine. The communication of life, strength, and fruitfulness from the root to the branches is unobstructed and constant. Separated from the vine, the branch cannot live. No more, said Jesus, can you live apart from Me. The life you have received from Me can be preserved only by continual communion. Without Me you cannot OVERCOME one SIN, or RESIST one TEMPTATION. DA p. 676.1 “Abide in Me, and I in you.” Abiding in Christ means a constant receiving of HIS SPIRIT, a life of unreserved surrender to His service.” Overcome and Resist is the same two words she said for the third person of the Godhead so how can it be someone else who represents him? Lastly she says the Holy Spirit is Christ Omnipresence Spirit which when the Father glorified his humanity he received notice: "Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is HIMSELF, divested of the personality of humanity, and independent thereof. He would represent HIMSELF as present in all places by HIS HOLY SPIRIT, as the OMNIPRESENT." - (E.G. White, Lt119, February 18, 1895) “That Christ should MANIFEST HIMSELF to them, and yet be invisible to the world, was a mystery to the disciples. They could not understand the words of Christ in their SPIRITUAL SENSE. THEY WERE THINKING OF THE 'OUTWARD VISIBLE MANIFESTATION. They could not take in the fact that they could have the PRESENCE OF CHRIST WITH THEM, and YET HE BE UNSEEN BY THE WORLD. They did not understand the meaning of a 'SPIRITUAL MANIFESTATION. THE SOUTHERN WORK, SEPT.13, 1898 The Spirit of Antichrist in these last days is to deny the Holy Spirit is Christ and believe it’s Someone else which Paul clearly says: 2 Corinthians 3:17 KJV “Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” Who is the Lord who is that Spirit? Paul says in the next chapter 2 Corinthians 4:5 KJV For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus THE LORD; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.”
The darkness comprehended it not. What did John write? John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Strange considering that's not what Deuteronomy 6:4 says. It says there is only ONE LORD. Who is the Lord? John 20:28- And Thomas answered and said unto Him (Jesus), My Lord and my God.
“MC Wilcox on "one God": "Deut. 6:4 is simply an expression of the unity of the Godhead : "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." Many times, when mention is made of God, it simply implies the Godhead. Of course, there is absolute unity in that, just as truly as though there were but one Person; and therefore it is spoken of as one." Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: Deuteronomy 6:4
@7th-Day the word translated as LORD in Deuteronomy is "Yehovah" which is not the name of Yeshua. The word translated as Lord in John is "kurios" meaning ruler,controller,authority which is not subject to a Devine being only,even humans can carry that title.Remember also that the word God "theos" meaning a deity especially of divinity,is a title.Yeshua can carry that title as he is divine because he is begotten by the Father. Yeshua is not the Supreme deity of the universe as he has a God too and is subject to a God too. 1 Corinthians 15:28 and Hebrews 1:8 and 9. That God is Yahweh the Supreme deity of the universe.
@chrischung2365 the expression godhead does mean divinity and the 3 times it appears in the new testament it never carries numerical value,go check your concordance as to the meaning of that word
I just have 2 questions no one ever answers. 1. Is Jesus the Son of the Holy Ghost? "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." And How many are sitting on the throne in heaven according to the bible?
Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins *but God* only? {Mark 2:7} Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, *God with us* {Matthew 1:23} And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: *God* was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. {1 Timothy 3:16} “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” {John 10:11} ... “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.” {John 10:14} The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want... {Psalm 23:1a} I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no Saviour. {Isaiah 43:11} And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. {John 20:28} Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. {Isaiah 48:12} And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; "I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, *and was dead* and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.” {Revelation 1:18} Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: {Philippians 2:5-6} For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; {Colossians 1:16-19} But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, *from everlasting* {Micah 5:2}
*@larrybedouin2921:* - *Here’s a Trinitarian conundrum:.* - *Jesus prayed to the Father [John 17:1],* - *but His mother Mary was pregnant with Him as a result of the Holy Spirit:* “She was found with child of the Holy Spirit” [Matthew 1:18]. *That would make the Holy Spirit the “father” of Jesus.* *This confusion is quite easily avoidable* - *by realizing that the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is not a person *but the divine power and manifestation by which the Father gave human life to Jesus in the womb of Mary.*
It is true. We are told what the Holy Spirit does, not who the Holy Spirit is. And we should accept what the bible does say and neither add to it or take away from it, and pray for the Holy Spirit which leads to all truth, and represents Jesus on earth etc. But the question I have also is why did Jesus say this, as quoted in John 16? "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." Can they not be in the same place? What does this mean? Why is it expedient for Jesus to go back to heaven before the Holy Spirit could come?
The Holy Ghost is Jehovah Compare Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (Jehovah): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD ( Jehovah ): for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. With Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Conclusion. The Holy Ghost is Jehovah
@@canadiancontrarian3668The Holy Ghost is Jehovah Himself. Compare Exo 17:2 Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD (Jehovah)? With Heb 3:7 Wherefore as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Conclusion: The Holy Ghost is Jehovah Himself.
The Holy Ghost is God. Compare Psa 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, Psa 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: Psa 95:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: Psa 95:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest. With Heb 3:7 Wherefore as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Conclusion. The Holy Ghost Himself is speaking therefore The Holy Ghost is God.
I think it would have been helpful to define your position from the Bible, so it is clear what position in the bible is being uplifted. This has been an entire study refuting a position that wasn't defined either.
That is it exactly. If you can only defend your position by trying to attack or discredit another's instead of proving your own it's because you can't. And you need to go back and pray and study until you have a positive way to teach with the word of God. It's not about You're wrong I'm right. It's about what does God say? Come let us reason together.
ONE AFTER ANOTHER ASKED HIM THE QUESTION, “ART THOU THE SON OF GOD?” TO ALL CAME THE ANSWER AS TO CAIAPHAS, “I AM.” (MATTHEW 27:40-43; MARK 14:61-64; LUKE 22:66-71; JOHN 19:7) IN THE TRUTH OF HIS WORDS, JESUS PROCLAIMED HIMSELF AS THE SON OF GOD. The Jewish rulers said of Christ, “We have a law, and by our law He ought to die” [John 19:7]. Christ, who made the laws governing the Temple service, might have said to Caiaphas as he rent his robe, “You have transgressed the law of the God of heaven.” {12MR 401.3} Every word of Christ’s reply was an arrow aimed by no uncertain hand. The judges rose up and confronted Christ, and with angry vehemence one after another asked Him the question, “Art Thou the Son of God?” To all came the answer as to Caiaphas, “I AM.” (Matthew 27:40-43; Mark 14:61-64; Luke 22:66-71; John 19:7) Oh, will not the dignity revealed in that pale face bring discernment to these men? Will not His bearing impress them with the truth of His words? On this occasion impressions were made that were never effaced. The actors in the scene went from place to place, hoping to find relief, but never did they gain the peace and quietude they sought. {12MR 401.4} The rulers did not yield to the conviction, but decided the matter as Satan hoped they would. They condemned Christ as a blasphemer. But Christ was not cowed or intimidated by their anger. With patience and without retaliation, He bore dishonor and shameful abuse. He looked forward to the time when their positions would be reversed, when He would sit on the right hand of God, clothed with power, when all-Pilate, Caiaphas, and those who mocked and derided Him-would stand before Him. When He comes in the clouds of heaven, the whole world will be cited before Him. Those who pierced Him will look upon Him. The sentence will be passed on those who have not received Him. {12MR 402.1} This is one of the times when Christ publicly confessed His claim to be the Messiah, the One for whom the Jews had long looked. Weighted with such great results, it was to Christ one of the most wonderful moments of His life. He realized that all disguise must be swept away. The declaration that He was one with God must be openly made. His judges looked upon Him as only a man, and they thought Him guilty of blasphemous presumption. But He proclaimed Himself as the Son of God. He fully asserted His divine character before the dignitaries who had arraigned Him before their earthly tribunal. His words, spoken calmly, yet with conscious power, showed that He claimed for Himself the prerogatives of the Son of God. {12MR 402.2} At this time, none of the disciples dared open their lips to acknowledge Christ as the Messiah so long expected. When asked if he was one of the disciples, Peter denied, and when again charged with being Christ’s follower, he denied with cursing and swearing. On one occasion Jesus asked His disciples, “Whom say ye that I am?” The light of the Saviour’s glory flooded Peter’s soul, and with inspired earnestness, he broke out into no prosaic acknowledgment, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Christ commended him, saying, “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven” [Matthew 16:15-17]. Is this the same Peter that now denies his Lord with cursing? {12MR 403.1} CHRIST SHOULD ANNOUNCE HIMSELF AS THE SON OF GOD. The Jews, because their understanding was darkened by selfish prejudice, could not harmonize the strange power and authority of Christ’s convicting words, with his humble life and appearance. They did not appreciate the fact that real greatness can afford to go without display. This man’s poverty and humility seemed wholly inconsistent with his claims to the great honor and power of the Messiah. That he should announce himself as the Son of God, they deemed intolerable blasphemy. They questioned, if he were the Messiah, why was he so unpretending? What would become of their nation if he were satisfied to be without the force of arms? When and how would the glory and power, so long anticipated, bring the nations as subjects to the city of the Jews? Had not the priests taught that they were to bear rule over all the earth? and could it be possible that the great religious teachers were in error? The Lord had answered their query through Isaiah: “O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.” {RH February 7, 1888, par. 11} {RH July 6, 1911, par. 11}
“Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent.” Manuscript Releases (1993). (Vol. 14, p. 23). (MR NO. 1084. Feb. 19, 1895)
In fact lets consider the ",comforter" who is this comforter that the father sent after Jesus left? Well of course its claimed that a third person was sent... But where do we turn to find comfort? Would we say "the word"? Who is the word? Would we say we just pray to a third person called the holy spirit? I say its babylonian confusion creeping in..
@@powerofthelamb let us consider who the spirit belongs to...GENESIS 6:3 KJ21 And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for he also is flesh; yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years
@@powerofthelamb Good morning Pastor, I'm aware these views are shared widely throughout the SDA church. The intention was to highlight that the session was called a The Godhead Debate so I was expecting a talk with at least one person to represent each view in a given amount of time. I kno you both covered opposing views and respect your vast knowledge of the Bible but it seemed biased as you both share the same views and it didn't seem like a debate but more of a review or a discussion. As someone who doesn't believe in the Trinity it is not my intention to blaspheme and demote Christ but to follow scripture how it reads and to have the correct inspired understanding. I don't claim to kno all and am still a student and someone in need of salvation and Christ blaspheming Christ is not my intention. The Trinity views in essence worship 3 Gods which is blasphemy (Deut 6:4, Isaiah 45:6 and Isaiah 45:21) or Worships 1 God composed of 3 distinctive beings, what happened when Jesus died on the cross then? Did the Triune God cease to be God? It would be good if you could invite someone on to your platform that has an opposing view and conduct a Trinity Vs Non Trinity debate. Thanks again for responding
@@christopherbunbury2156 I realize that calling this the Godhead debate actually led some people to believe that Steve and Zo would be debating each other. My title was meant to address the debate. So I understand how this could have been misunderstood.
"If a brother differs with you on some points of truth, do not stoop to ridicule; do not place him in a false light or misconstrue his words, making sport of them; do not misinterpret his words and wrest them of their true meaning. This is not conscientious argument. Do not present him before others as a heretic, when you have not with him investigated his positions, taking the Scriptures text by text in the spirit of Christ to show him what is truth. You do not yourself really know the evidence he has for his faith, and you cannot clearly define your own position. Take your Bible, and in a kindly spirit weigh every argument that he presents and show him by the Scriptures if he is in error. When you do this without unkind feelings, you will do only that which is your duty and the duty of every minister of Jesus Christ." (Lt21-1888)
It is not Godhead debate. Let's call it what it is. It's Trinity Debate. Steve is doing exactly what apostate men like Kellogg, Froom and Desmond Ford did to this church. Now it is time for true watchmen to cry louder. This is spiritualism of highest order. Godhead is not synonymous with Trinity
Anti-trinitarians are a spirit of division in the body of Christ. And the LORD said, *My Spirit shall not always strive with man* for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. {Genesis 6:3} They angered him also at the waters of strife, so that it went ill with Moses for their sakes: *Because they provoked his Spirit* so that he spake unadvisedly with his lips. {Psalm 106:33} In all their affliction he was afflicted, and *the angel of his presence* saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, *and vexed his holy Spirit* therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. {Isaiah 63:9-10} (Ps 78:40-41) *The Spirit of God hath made me* and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. {Job 33:4} Cast me [David] not away *from thy presence* and take not *thy holy Spirit* from me. {Psalm 51:11} (The holy Spirit is omnipresent) Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. {Psalm 139:7-10} Then was *Jesus led up of the Spirit* into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. {Matthew 4:1} “And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: *but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him* neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” {Matthew 12:32} (Mark 3:28-29) “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you *another* [of the same kind] Comforter that he may abide with you for ever; Even *the Spirit of truth* whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; *for he dwelleth with you* and shall be in you.” {John 14:16-17} "But the Comforter, which is *the Holy Ghost* whom the Father will send in my name, *he shall teach you* all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever *I have said* unto you.” {John 14:26} “But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, *he shall testify* of me:” {John 15:26-27} “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, *the Comforter* will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when *he* is come, *he* will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:” {John 16:7-8} (This is why grieving the holy Spirit cannot be forgiven if we do not allow him to convict us of our unrighteousness.) (The holy Spirit is omniscient) “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, *he will guide you into all truth* for *he shall not speak of himself* but whatsoever *he shall hear* that *shall he speak* and *he will shew you* things to come.” {John 16:13} And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, *as the Spirit gave them utterance* {Acts 2:4} (read verses 1-3 also for context) (The holy Spirit is omnipotent) But Peter said, Ananias, why hath satan filled thine heart *to lie to the Holy Ghost* and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? *thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God* And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. {Acts 5:3-5} [Steven] Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, *ye do always resist the Holy Ghost* as your fathers did, so do ye. {Acts 7:51} Then *the Spirit said unto Philip* Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. {Acts 8:29} While Peter thought on the vision, *the Spirit said unto him* Behold, three men seek thee. Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: *for I have sent them* {Acts 10:19-20} As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, *the Holy Ghost said* Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. {Acts 13:2} For *it seemed good to the Holy Ghost* and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; {Acts 15:28} Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, *and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia* After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: *but the Spirit suffered them not* {Acts 16:7-8} *The Spirit itself* beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: {Romans 8:16} Likewise *the Spirit* also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but *the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us* with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints *according to the will of God* {Romans 8:26-27} Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, *and for the love of the Spirit* that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me; {Romans 15:30} And *grieve not the holy Spirit of God whereby ye are sealed* unto the day of redemption. {Ephesians 4:30} But God hath revealed them unto us *by his Spirit* for *the Spirit searcheth all things* yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, *but the Spirit of God* {1 Corinthians 2:10-11} But all these worketh that *one and the selfsame Spirit* dividing to every man severally *as he will* For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For *by one Spirit* are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into *one Spirit* {1 Corinthians 12:11-13} Now *the Spirit speaketh expressly* that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; {1 Timothy 4:1} Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. {Hebrews 3:7-9} How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through *the eternal Spirit* offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? {Hebrews 9:14} Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? {Hebrews 10:29} “He that hath an ear, let him hear what *the Spirit* saith unto the churches.” {Revelation 2:7; 2:11; 2:17; 2:29; 3:6; 3:13; 3:22} And *the Spirit* and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. {Revelation 22:17}
@Mifsud-hj8ok" Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus" "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" He is not part of a Godhead, aka Trinity, the Godhead dwelleth within him. There is a difference. Strong’s Definitions θεότης theótēs, theh-ot'-ace; from G2316; divinity (abstractly):-godhead. KJV Translation Count - Total: 1x The KJV translates Strong's G2320 in the following manner: Godhead (1x).
Genesis 1:27 KJV - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 2:21-23 KJV - And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Peace brother 🙏
Satan can breathe His Spirit upon Christains who are left in the Holy place. Does that mean there are two of Him? Maybe this subject is a salvation issue, and it keeps us still in the Holy place, we need to get into the Most Holy to be saved. There Jesus will fill us with His Spirit.
Right. It is blasphemy to call the Holy Spirit the spirit of Satan. Those who go this far run the risk of the unpardonable sin. Be sure that what you teach is actually biblical.
He’s referring to Ellen White Vision: “And I saw a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, and angels were all around it as it came where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the Holiest where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, standing before the Father, a great High Priest. On the hem of his garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. *And I saw those who rose up with Jesus send up their faith to him in the Holiest, and pray-my Father give us thy Spirit. Then Jesus would breathe upon them the Holy Ghost. In the breath was light, power, and much love, joy and peace* . Then I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne and pray, *Father give us thy Spirit; then Satan would breathe upon them an unholy influence; in it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy and peace. Satan's object was to keep them deceived, and to draw back and deceive God's children.* ” ExV 43.1
@@pilgrimsprogress6797 right. They believed the spirit had no personality and was only a force. No love, joy, or peace, attributes that point to personality.
That’s the characteristics of Christ character which is love, joy and peace. And Satan’s is no love, no joy, and no peace. This is what bradthomas was saying, if you make the Spirit of God a seperate being from Him, that would mean the spirit of Satan is a seperate being from Satan.
"Those who come in contact with Sabbath-keepers should be the better for their association; for if they live out the commandments of God, they are representatives of the Father and the Son." (RH January 15, 1895, par. 1)
“ *As a personal being, God has revealed Himself in His Son. The outshining of the Father's glory, “and the express image of His person* ,” Jesus, as a personal Saviour, came to the world. As a personal Saviour He ascended on high. As a personal Saviour He intercedes in the heavenly courts. Before the throne of God in our behalf ministers “One like unto the Son of man.” Hebrews 1:3; Revelation 1:13. MH 418.4
“Nature is not God nor ever was God. God is in nature; the voice of nature testifies of God; but nature is not God. It but bears a testimony of God’s power, as His created works. *There is a personal God, the Father; there is a personal Christ, the Son* . “God, who at sundry times and in diverse manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.” [Hebrews 1:1-3.] *Here the Son of God is referred to, “who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power* .” John declares, “The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory (glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full or grace and truth.” [John 1:14.] {13LtMs, Ms 86, 1898, par. 11}
So, sounds like you haven’t looked back in our history what our beliefs were concerning who is God. In Fact, we believed there was one absolute God (with body and parts) which is the Father, and not that there’s 3 persons each called “God” which makes no distinction in the one God, thus the Trinity destroys the personality of God and of Christ. Denying that the God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is denying our past teaching. “The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.” (2 Corinthians 11:31) “For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and *denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ* .” (Jude 1:4)
Thank you for that clarity, but who shall understand? Steve Wohlberg has chosen to be narrow and dogmatic. The purpose of Bible study in the SDA Church is to come back to the set beliefs of the church and not to challenge them if they don't align with scripture. False teachings have crept in through deception and the watchmen are blind.
This is what is so frustrating is that Adventist don’t even know what Catholics believe about the Godhead. I looked up the quote you stated from catholic answers. It’s clearly there saying that he actively and eternally generates the son is disgusting and as Adventist we do not believe that nonsense. But yet because the Catholic Church mentions three persons we are labeled as apostate! Wake up and study. The Bible is clear and so is SOP.
Pastor Steve please study harder , if God showed me God you show you this truth . Jeuss is coming and pastos are teaching error and heresy that is not in the Bible 😢
John 8:24 I (Jesus speaking) said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Please note that “he” is not in the original Greek and is italicized to indicate that it was supplied by the translators. Therefore, what Jesus really said here was “I AM,” therefore making it another declaration of his Godhood that he is a divine, eternal, pre-existent, infinite, perfect Being. Christ is Israel’s God. See Exodus 3:14 and under John 8:58). Thus the correct translation of Jesus' words. John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.
A Part Of Himself Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1 John 4:10. "The Eternal Father, the unchangeable one, gave his only begotten Son, tore from his bosom Him who was made in the express image of his person. and sent him down to earth to reveal how greatly he loved mankind." RH July 9, 1895, par. 13 "A complete offering has been made;for "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son," - not a son by creation as were the angels, nor a son by adoption, as is the forgiven sinner, but a Son begotten in the express image of the Father's person, and in all the brightness of his majesty and glory, one equal with God in authority, dignity, and divine perfection." ST May 30, 1895, par. 3 God's love for the world was not manifest because He sent His Son, but because He loved the world He sent His Son into the world that divinity clothed with humanity might touch humanity, while divinity lays hold of divinity. Though sin had produced a gulf between man and his God, a divine benevolence provided a plan to bridge that gulf. And what material did He use? A part of Himself. The brightness of the Father's glory came to a world all seared and marred with the curse, and in His own divine character, in His own divine body, bridged the gulf.... The windows of heaven were opened and the showers of heavenly grace in healing streams came to our benighted world.... Had God given us less we could not have been saved. But He gave to our world so abundantly that it could not be said that He could love us more. Then how foolish is the position taken that there is to be a second probation after the first is exhausted. God has exhausted His benevolence ... in pouring out all heaven to man in one great gift. Only in comprehending the value of this offering can we comprehend infinity. O the breadth and height and depth of the love of God! Who of finite beings can comprehend it? ... God claims the whole of the affections of man, the whole heart, the whole soul, the whole mind, the whole strength. He lays claim to all that there is of man, because He has poured out the whole treasure of heaven by giving us His all at once, reserving nothing greater that heaven can do.... When I commence writing on this subject, I go on and on, and try to get beyond the outer edge, but I fail. When we shall reach the mansions above, Jesus will Himself lead the white-robed ones, made white in the blood of the Lamb, to the Father. “Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.” Revelation 7:15.11 Letter 36a, 1890. From Our High Calling - Page 12 Daniel 7:9 KJV - I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. Daniel 7:13-14 KJV - I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. The reason why the churches are weak and sickly and ready to die, is that the enemy has brought influences of a discouraging nature to bear upon trembling souls. He has sought to shut Jesus from their view as the Comforter, as one who reproves, who warns, who admonishes them, saying, "This is the way, walk ye in it." Christ has all power in heaven and in earth, and he can strengthen the wavering, and set right the erring. He can inspire with confidence, with hope in God; and confidence in God always results in creating confidence in one another. RH August 26, 1890, par. 10 Romans 8:9-10 KJV - But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Romans 8:26 KJV - Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Romans 8:34 KJV - Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. John 14:18 KJV - I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 2 Corinthians 3:17-18 KJV - Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. Peace brother, John
This IS the present truth for many non trinitarians. However, note the moderation of James White: James White(1876): "The principal difference between the two bodies is the immortality question. The S. D. Adventists hold the divinity of Christ so nearly with the trinitarian, that we apprehend no trial here. . . . " Seventh-day Adventists and Seventh Day Baptists cannot afford a controversy on doctrines which neither regard as tests of Christian character." (Review and Herald, October 12, 1876, p. 116, col. 2.)
And the LORD said, *My Spirit shall not always strive with man* for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. {Genesis 6:3} They angered him also at the waters of strife, so that it went ill with Moses for their sakes: *Because they provoked his Spirit* so that he spake unadvisedly with his lips. {Psalm 106:33} In all their affliction he was afflicted, and *the angel of his presence* saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, *and vexed his holy Spirit* therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. {Isaiah 63:9-10} (Ps 78:40-41) *The Spirit of God hath made me* and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. {Job 33:4} Cast me [David] not away *from thy presence* and take not *thy holy Spirit* from me. {Psalm 51:11} (The holy Spirit is omnipresent) Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. {Psalm 139:7-10} Then was *Jesus led up of the Spirit* into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. {Matthew 4:1} “And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: *but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him* neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” {Matthew 12:32} (Mark 3:28-29) “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you *another* [of the same kind] Comforter that he may abide with you for ever; Even *the Spirit of truth* whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; *for he dwelleth with you* and shall be in you.” {John 14:16-17} "But the Comforter, which is *the Holy Ghost* whom the Father will send in my name, *he shall teach you* all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever *I have said* unto you.” {John 14:26} “But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, *he shall testify* of me:” {John 15:26-27} “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, *the Comforter* will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when *he* is come, *he* will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:” {John 16:7-8} (This is why grieving the holy Spirit cannot be forgiven if we do not allow him to convict us of our unrighteousness.) (The holy Spirit is omniscient) “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, *he will guide you into all truth* for *he shall not speak of himself* but whatsoever *he shall hear* that *shall he speak* and *he will shew you* things to come.” {John 16:13} And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, *as the Spirit gave them utterance* {Acts 2:4} (read verses 1-3 also for context) (The holy Spirit is omnipotent) But Peter said, Ananias, why hath satan filled thine heart *to lie to the Holy Ghost* and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? *thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God* And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. {Acts 5:3-5} [Steven] Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, *ye do always resist the Holy Ghost* as your fathers did, so do ye. {Acts 7:51} Then *the Spirit said unto Philip* Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. {Acts 8:29} While Peter thought on the vision, *the Spirit said unto him* Behold, three men seek thee. Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: *for I have sent them* {Acts 10:19-20} As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, *the Holy Ghost said* Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. {Acts 13:2} For *it seemed good to the Holy Ghost* and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; {Acts 15:28} Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, *and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia* After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: *but the Spirit suffered them not* {Acts 16:7-8} *The Spirit itself* beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: {Romans 8:16} Likewise *the Spirit* also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but *the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us* with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints *according to the will of God* {Romans 8:26-27} Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, *and for the love of the Spirit* that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me; {Romans 15:30} And *grieve not the holy Spirit of God whereby ye are sealed* unto the day of redemption. {Ephesians 4:30} But God hath revealed them unto us *by his Spirit* for *the Spirit searcheth all things* yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, *but the Spirit of God* {1 Corinthians 2:10-11} But all these worketh that *one and the selfsame Spirit* dividing to every man severally *as he will* For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For *by one Spirit* are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into *one Spirit* {1 Corinthians 12:11-13} Now *the Spirit speaketh expressly* that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; {1 Timothy 4:1} Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. {Hebrews 3:7-9} How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through *the eternal Spirit* offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? {Hebrews 9:14} Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? {Hebrews 10:29} “He that hath an ear, let him hear what *the Spirit* saith unto the churches.” {Revelation 2:7; 2:11; 2:17; 2:29; 3:6; 3:13; 3:22} And *the Spirit* and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. {Revelation 22:17}
Isaiah 6:3 "And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.” Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. “Did you catch that? That’s one “holy” for each person of the Godhead!“ You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling. 7MR 267.2
We need to look at the creation of man to understand the God head... Man was made in God's image.. male and female..2.. Adam was first then Adam "begot" Eve.. both the same age but one was before the other.. the father begot a real son in eternity past but the father was before the son... We have to understand the the son is Devine because his father is Devine... The Trinity is more important to the beast than Sunday... Sunday is their day because of the God they worship is this pagan triune god..
@@BgSkyGrl hey.. do you think that these guys are somehow blinded by this trinitarian thing...? The Bible to me seems pretty clear that it is Father and Son, the son having the spirit of the Father... I know these aren't the only Adventists on the trinitarian side but I'm seeing a lot of Adventists believe in the Father and Son.. it seems to be a stunning block . Jesus said walk while ye have the light less darkness come up on you and ye stumble... That he said to disciples so this stoping and keeping beast doctrine seems pretty bad .
I think most of us understand in John 1:1 were phrase "the Word" is used it's speaking of Jesus. So just replace the words "the Word" with the name Jesus. Then verse one would read "1 In the beginning was “Jesus”, and “Jesus” was with God, and “Jesus” was God." Verse 14 would read "14 And "Jesus" became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
Thanks for making these videos, the devil is out there telling so many lies to confuse others because they themselves are confused. & even among us who we think or thought was our own are workibg against God.
You are saying the Whites, and the founders of this church, were liars? Have you really studied the underhanded way the trinity doctrine was brought into the church? You are calling your fellow SDA members liars? Those who hold to the Fundemental principles that grew this protestant church? A protestant church that now belongs to the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, a catholic council working on Christian ecumenical Unity. The first move was to adopt the trinity doctrine so as to join the World Council of Churches, who also have a trinity requirement. The SDA church proudly joined the world, with NO biblical thus saith the Lord, SDA (the people of the Bible) doctrine without biblical support. The other doctrinal change that has to go hand-in-hand is the literal Sonship of Jesus. The church stand is that is just a metaphor. Denying the Son of God. The trinity doesn't stand with many of the pillars of our faith - the 3 angels messages, the 10 commandments, the death and resurrection of Christ, and more. Revelation is all about Worship, not only when, but primarily WHO. Who do you worship? I worship The Lord, God Almighty, Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgement has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of waters. (Singular His, Him) Who created all things? By the Father through His Son Jesus. Sad for Steve, he can't see that the Father through His Son created all things, as in "Let us", God the source of everything, and through the Son. Jesus came from Heaven to declare the Father claiming nothing for Himself, giving all the glory to the one who sent Him, Almighty God.
@powerofthelamb can you please explain to me, why every time Jesus had an encounter with devils (possessed persons) the devils told always the same thing: we know who you are: the Son of God. So, my question is, why no devil said : you are God?
Who was speaking to Abraham in the verse below? Jesus or the Father? Genesis 17:1 (KJV) And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, 👉I [am] the Almighty God;👈walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Can Jesus represent the Father and speak His words as the “Angel of the Lord”? Didn’t the Father tell the angels in the Spirit of Prophecy that “the presence of his Son was as his own presence?”
“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. *Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him* . *But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak* ; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.” (Exodus 23:20-23) “The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that he might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon his Son. The Son was seated on the throne with the Father, and the heavenly throng of holy angels was gathered around them. *The Father then made known that it was ordained by himself that Christ, his Son, should be equal with himself; so that wherever was the presence of his Son, it was as his own presence* . The word of the Son was to be obeyed as readily as the word of the Father. His Son he had invested with authority to command the heavenly host. Especially was his Son to work in union with himself in the anticipated creation of the earth and every living thing that should exist upon the earth. *His Son would carry out his will and his purposes, but would do nothing of himself alone. The Father's will would be fulfilled in him* .” {1SP 17.2}
He gave his son, not another co-equal god. Is your son less important that you? Would it be easier for you to give someone equal to you or your own son?
In John 10:30, the context of the discussion of this statement has nothing to do with who God is, but what God does. Jesus was simply stating that they are working on the same team, doing the same thing. They are one in their actions, in purpose, in what they do. If a Mormon or a Jehovah Witness were to use a text out of context like that, we would accuse them of a deliberate misuse of a phrase out of context. We should not have a lower standard for ourselves than what we apply to them. Consider other similar verses about being one, which get conveniently ignored: “…Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.” Jn. 17:11 NASB “That they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.” John 17:21-23 NASB “Now he who plants and he who waters are one.” 1 Corinthians 3:8
@SteveWohlberg7 why don’t you use the word trinity as stated in the #2 28 FB? The definition of the trinity is met in the belief statement. All authority came from the Father to the Son. God the Father is the creator of all things. Let us make is God the Creator, through the Son. This was together, but nothing is created without God.
Be careful. Just because the nature of God doesn’t “make sense” to you doesn’t mean it is error. “It is a masterpiece of Satan's deceptions to keep the minds of men searching and conjecturing in regard to that which God has not made known and which He does not intend that we shall understand. It was thus that Lucifer lost his place in heaven. He became dissatisfied because all the secrets of God's purposes were not confided to him, and he entirely disregarded that which was revealed concerning his own work in the lofty position assigned him. By arousing the same discontent in the angels under his command, he caused their fall. Now he seeks to imbue the minds of men with the same spirit and to lead them also to disregard the direct commands of God. . DD 9.2
All this talk/claims of 3 persons in the Godhead. I do believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, but I dont need to add to scripture to teach about them. There are zero bible texts saying the Godhead is defined that way, that is not even the meaning of the 3 greek words translated as " Godhead' in the 3 times that it is found in the New testament. What about do not add to or take away from Gods word is not being understoood here?
He did obscure the fact Jesus is the only begotten Son. Nothing takes away from the Father and his Son than denying that Jesus is the only literal born Son.John writes of how severe this is in 1 John 2:22
James White(1876): "The principal difference between the two bodies is the immortality question. The S. D. Adventists hold the divinity of Christ so nearly with the trinitarian, that we apprehend no trial here. . . . " Seventh-day Adventists and Seventh Day Baptists cannot afford a controversy on doctrines which neither regard as tests of Christian character." (Review and Herald, October 12, 1876, p. 116, col. 2.)
1 john 5: 7 -8 absent from all text prior to the 16th century, acknowledged by erroneous by most scholars esp early Advent teachings. The Messiah never claimed to be God, but God's Son. Not role playing, he is divine that's where you go off because the term God instead of divine. Royalty is not lower the king's son is of the same substance but not the same person. Messiah never claimed to be coequal, co-anything. He said the Father is greater and that he inherited all things from the Father.
What is truly consistent in all of scripture is they are THREE. Period. The difference is when we try to create positions. Sounds like an old technique of Satan and his personal desires to create mass confusion.
Jesus Emmanuel is God with us. He is the Almighty God. Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
To all the Non-trinitarians on this board, let's settle this rigjt now. Show a specific quote, FROM ELLEN WHITE HERSELF, where she clearly and emphatically states that Christ is NOT Eternal or Everlasting as the Father, and that the Holy Spirit is NOT a separate and distinct 3rd Being. Make sure it is from Ellen White, make sure she is specifically saying those things, ... ...and don't even bother trying to pass off a Waggoner quote as a Spirit of Prophecy quote as some of you try to do. Go ahead, show us the quotes.
She always pointed to scripture, so maybe use the Bible instead... The Son received everything from the Father, His inheritance, being the Son of God. However, over and over, the Bible states, He was begotten, brought forth, from God. I believe the Bible, rather than the SDA church who deniesbthe Son of God, saying this is just a metaphor, so we can understand without finite human brains. God created us, it is vitally important to Him that we understand Who He is, and He has made it very clear in His words to us, so that we can understand. Revelation is all about Worship, about when, but mainly about WHO. The Son came to Glorify the Father, not Himself. The first angel says Fear God and give glory to HIM for the hour of HIS judgement has come, and WORSHIP HIM that MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, and the sea and springs of water. Who made all things, God the Father, through Christ the Son. ❤
@BgSkyGrl then believe the Bible when it says this: John 1:1-3, 14- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, AND THE WORD WAS GOD, THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Revelation 1:17-18- And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying unto me, "Fear not; I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST: I am He that liveth, AND WAS DEAD; AND BEHOLD, I AM ALIVE FOR EVERMORE, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." John 8:58- Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I AM." Micah 5:2- But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; WHOSE GOINGS FORTH HAVE BEEN FROM OF OLD, FROM EVERLASTING. ISAIAH 9:6- For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: And the government shall be upon His shoulder: And His name shall be called, Wonderful, Counselor, THE MIGHY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, THE PRINCE OF PEACE. Proverbs 8:22-31- The Lord POSSESSED ME IN THE BEGINNING OF HIS WAY, BEFORE HIS WORKS OF OLD. I WAS SET UP FROM EVERLASTING, FROM THE BEGINNING, IR EVER THE EARTH WAS. When there were no depths I was BROUGHT FORTH; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills WAS I BROUGHT FORTH: While as yet He had not made the Earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I WAS THERE: When He set a compass upon the face of the depth: When He established the clouds above: When He strengthened the fountains of the deep: When He gave to the sea His decree, that the waters should not pass His Commandment: When He appointed the foundations of the Earth: Then I was by Him, AS ONE BROUGHT UP WITH HIM: And I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him; rejoicing in the habitable part of His earth; and my delights were with the sons of me. Psalms 90:1-2- (A Prayer of Moses the man of God.) Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, EVEN FROM EVERLASTING TO EVERLASTING, THOU ART GOD.
1 Timothy 2:5 KJV For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; If you believe the concept of the trinity this verses is confusing. The Father is God Jesus Chris is His actual biological Son of God The Holy Spirit is The Father: God is Spirit and God is Holy, hence Holy Spirit. The Father said this is my beloved son. IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED. The Comforter is Jesus Chris whom the Father dwells within. Jesus Chris is God-Like hence his Pre, incarnation name Michael, but He is not God himself. As a Son He is Royal and Divine and worthy of worship and one in spirit with his Father but He is not the God of the Bible. John 20:17 KJV Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Yes because people don't realize the word Begotten means Holy; just like Hollowed & the Bible Scriptures says the God Head 3 In One are equal & are one God in 3 Persons, they all have there part to play that works our for the plan of Salvation from Him Who made all things.
And they say “AT’s do wordplays”, why don’t they look at themselves in the mirror? They deny what’s already been defined 👇🏼 Monogenes (only begotten) - Greek Strong’s Dictionary 3439. μονογενής monogenes, mon-og-en-ace´; from 3441 and 1096; only-born, i.e. sole: - only (begotten, child). Monos= only genos from 1096 ginomai = born. Example: “And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child.” (Luke 9:38 KJV) But in the Greek it’s suppose to read as “only born child” “Behold, a man from the crowd called out, saying, “Teacher, I beg you to look at my son, for he is my only born child.” Luke 9:38 WEB Hence, the only born child that the father fathered who had no other sons.
Colossians 2:9 - "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." The "fullness of the Godhead" could not be expressed by anything or anyone who was not "equal" with GOD. Furthermore, the "self-existent" GOD, as Jesus is described as possessing life "original, unborrowed, and underived," could not have been "eternally generated" nor "begotten" if we are to maintain consistency of language and logic. Any philosophy that denigrates the exalted position of the Second Person of the Godhead, whom the Bible speaks of as "the Son of GOD," AND as "the Son of Man," and who is spoken of as simply and powerfully "GOD" by the Father Himself, and whom the SPIRIT of GOD said through Paul, the HE is "equal" with the Father, cannot be given as much time as its adherents are demanding. This is a diversion of Satan. The Spirit of Prophecy observes that by the nature of the eternal GOD, the past, the present, and the future are all now. The Scriptures state that GOD speaks of things that have not yet occurred as if they had already occurred. The Godhead does not always, when speaking of its own thoughts and purposes, speak in a linear fashion; the Godhead does not exist in linear time. Herein is a chance for us to become confused if we insist on the GODHEAD existing and moving linearly in time as we do. The GODHEAD's multi-dimensional eternality and "foreknowledge" is what enabled It to say of Christ that He was "slain from the foundation of the world." This, what I call "multi-dimensional eternality," is what enables YHWH say to Moses, "I AM that I AM. Tell them that the I AM has sent you" - the self-existent, multi-dimensionally eternal, self-sufficient GOD, an eternally social BEING in mysterious community of LOVE with each OTHER , each PERSON of the GODHEAD. Now, we know that this eternal GODHEAD from "eternity past" (again, this is linear thinking) counselled together to once and for all remedy the sin problem (once it came into existence - linear thinking again) by ONE of THEM taking on human nature (perhaps, some have suggested, angelic nature as well "before" sin was brought to earth - i.e. in the form of Michael the Arc-Angel - I say this only by permission, not by inspiration), becoming the "last Adam", a Substitute and Surety who would become the new head of the human family after Adam's fall, who would as a human take on the penalty of mankind's sin (eternal separation from GOD), demonstrating the depth of the LOVE that the GODHEAD IS. The SECOND PERSON of the GODHEAD (not in rank or importance or GOD-ness, but only in order - the FIRST PERSON of the GODHEAD, "the Father", "sent" or "gave" HIS SON (in linear time, JESUS "became" a Son, begotten of, conceived of the HOLY SPIRIT), the SON sent the THIRD PERSON of the GODHEAD, the HOLY SPIRIT) came into humanity, into linear time, having been "begotten of the Father," and dwelt among us - desiring for HIS character of LOVE to be indwelt in us by the HOLY GHOST (a ghost in the sense that HE has no form that we can conceive of). So, for us to properly understand Psalm 2:7, or Acts 13:33, or Hebrews 1:5, or Hebrews 5:5 when they quote the Father saying, "Today have I begotten Thee," we must see this in light of the nature of the multi-dimensional eternality of GODHEAD. When did GOD say this, and of what event? Was it some "coming forth from the bosom of the Father" in "eternity past," or was it of Jesus' birth through Mary after she had conceived of the HOLY GHOST. Philippians 2:5-11 (NLT) 5 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. 6 Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. 7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form, 8 he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross. 9 Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue declare that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
If God had wanted us to understand that He was a Trinity, He would have used a different image than that of a Father and Son, an image that men understand well and easily. Similarly, this would have been demonstrated in the creation of Adam and Eve. Yet God brings Eve out of Adam's womb, as if to tell us that she takes her origin from Adam. They are two, they create two beings. And they are united in spirit. Why complicate the simple? It says in the presentation that to say Jesus is the literal son of God is to diminish him, and that the controversy in heaven was about whether he really is God. Is that the truth? The revolt of Korah (Num 16) clarifies this point. Just as in that revolt, Satan declares in heaven that we are all sons of God, why should Jesus prevail over us? Simple answer. Because he is the only begotten son of God, he has the same characteristics as his Father. And who reaffirms his position? The one with the greatest authority in heaven, the one from whom the son derives his origin, his Father, the Most High, also called the Great Creator. See HR 11;2 SR13.2. And what kind of life did Jesus receive? The same life his Father possessed. Original life, unborrowed, underived. In other words, eternal life. John 5:26. And this original, unborrowed, underived life we can obtain through Christ. See 1SM 296.2. Dear pastors, you're missing the point.
So let’s simply the matter. Only two you say and the example is Adam and Eve. They both have a spirit. Their spirit ls did not make a third person neither did they share their spirit. My spirit is not a third person. My spirit is not a distinct being from myself unless of course you are coming to believe the error that human spirit is separate living entity from the person. So Is there a third person in the Godhead or no? Simplify this for me. Secondly, was there a time that God became a Father? Asked differently, tell me if there was a time when he did not have a Son. Finally, it seems that Korah’s rebellion is truly repeating and the authority God has given to the shepherds of his flock to guide the flock is routinely disregarded. “Pastors, ye take too much upon yourselves. Adventist church leaders, ye take too much upon yourselves.” The fear of touching the Lords anointed is certainly gone as ATs appear to feel that their authority supersedes that of the church at large.
@@powerofthelamb Thank you for your reply. First of all, questioning a teaching is not questioning your authority. But it is a biblical principle: 1 Thes 5:21 « Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. » and also Act 17:11 If I didn't question the Catholic teaching I received and if I didn't seek the truth, I certainly wouldn't be an Adventist today. If the pastors had considered Rachel Oakes' message a denial of authority, the Adventist church would never have accepted the Sabbath! When I wrote that they are one in spirit, I was referring first and foremost to the Father and his Son. This unity between Adam and Eve will be manifested in the formation of a single being of the same nature. But to make a new human being, a man and a woman must agree (united in spirit), otherwise it's a crime. The Bible doesn't teach that someone's spirit is a being. But it does teach that one's spirit is one's inner being (one's breath, one's character, one's motivations, in short, one's identity) Ro 7:22; 2Co 4:16; Ep 3:16. When we die, our spirit ascends to God, and when we are resurrected, God gives us back what makes us who we are. But the church confuses "person" with "being". To answer your question, and this is also what I wrote in my long comment, the Bible says that there is a Father, a Son and a Spirit. The Bible clearly states that the spirit belongs to God, and I would even go so far as to say that the spirit belongs to the Godhead (God and his Son) Rom 8:9-10. It's not a question of defining what it is, but of understanding who it is. The Spirit of the Godhead is the means by which God and his Son manifest themselves ( John 14:21). And if we want to go further, the Spirit is the life of God. Hence the need for someone who had received this life - Christ - to pass it on! John 5:26; John 10:17, 1 John 5:19-11. His death is not simply a ransom. But through his death, he also gives us his life, in other words, his Spirit. Gal 4:6. So we(those who believe) become partakers of the divine nature. The third person of the Godhead is the expression used by EGW and she specifies that it is the spirit of Christ. By using the term "person", she rejects any idea of force or essence. It allows us to understand that we really benefit from someone's presence. Likewise, she says that while Jesus ministers in the sanctuary above, he is still by his Spirit the minister of the church on earth . DA 166.2 To the question: Was there ever a time when God became a father? I answer: was there ever a time when God lacked wisdom? Let's stick to what the Bible reveals. The Bible declares that before the creation of all things, Jesus was born. And we know that creation began with Jesus. This means that the Son of God is not inferior to God, since he has the same attributes as his Father. Does this mean that a son of man is less human than his father? No. So why say so when it comes to divinity? Jesus is divine because he is the only begotten son of God. The Spirit is divine because it is the Spirit of divinity! If the Spirit is another being, then Jesus is the son of God the Holy Spirit. Luke1:35. The only "unity of three beings" taught in the Bible is that taught in John 17:23;26. The Babylonian churches accused the Adventist church of rejecting Jesus' divinity in EGW's day precisely because it believed that Jesus really is the Son of God. And it's sad today to hear the same argument from our pastors. If you believe in three distinct "beings" you are bound to contradict the Bible! That's why Adventist trinity advocates transform the one God into the united God. They do away with hierarchy in favor of equality. They do away with the real sonship of Jesus and redefine the term "Son". In this way, they give the impression of being in line with the Bible and the spirit of prophecy! Dear brothers, who promised to be with us every day until the end of the world? Who walks unseen among the seven churches? Who knocks at the door of your heart? God the Holy Spirit or Jesus? Trinitarians must logically answer that it is God the Holy Spirit. Who actually diminishes Christ? The one who thinks he's been given all the power and can therefore be with us and in us, or the one who thinks Jesus is so busy in the sanctuary that he sends us a colleague? How many beings share God's throne in Revelation 22:3-4 Who is God and who is the lamb? Whose face will the redeemed see? If you believe in three distinct "beings" you are bound to contradict the Bible! That's why Adventist trinity advocates transform the one God into the united God. They do away with hierarchy in favor of equality. They do away with the real sonship of Jesus and redefine the term "Son". In this way, they give the impression of being in line with the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy ! My role is simply to show you that this doctrine does not pass the test of the Bible without contradicting it. Your fate is in God's hands. The Adventist church has received many calls to return to its foundations, but its answer is Jeremiah 6:16 (KJV) 16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein. God bless
@@robertrochemont1658 First, the issue is not in questioning my authority but if you believe the SDA is the remnant church and that God has led and continues to lead it in truth. Going against the church doctrinal is basically to declare the church is part of Babylon. Is this what you are declaring? Next, you said, “The Bible doesn't teach that someone's spirit is a being. But it does teach that one's spirit is one's inner being (one's breath, one's character, one's motivations, in short, one's identity) Ro 7:22; 2Co 4:16; Ep 3:16. When we die, our spirit ascends to God, and when we are resurrected, God gives us back what makes us who we are. But the church confuses "person" with "being".” Please give a bible verse that uses the word “being” and then show biblically how a "being" is different from a "person." You are trying to establish a definition for the word "being" to nullify how Ellen White used it to refer to the Spirit. Why not go to the 1828 Webster's dictionary term for "being" and "person"? BE'ING, participle present tense [See Be.] Existing in a certain state. 1. A particular state or condition. [This is hardly a different sense.] 2. A person existing; applied to the human race. 3. An immaterial, intelligent existence, or spirit. Here is the definition for person. PERSON, noun per'sn. [Latin persona; said to be compounded of per, through or by, and sonus, sound; a Latin word signifying primarily a mask used by actors on the stage.] 1. An individual human being consisting of body and soul. We apply the word to living beings only, possessed of a rational nature; the body when dead is not called a person It is applied alike to a man, woman or child. A person is a thinking intelligent being. 2. A man, woman or child, considered as opposed to things, or distinct from them. A zeal for persons is far more easy to be perverted, than a zeal for things. 3. A human being, considered with respect to the living body or corporeal existence only. The form of her person is elegant. Ellen White uses the term “person” 17,128 times. Are you ready to say that she never used the word “person” interchangeably with “being”? Are you sure you want to go this route? The distinction between being and person is extremely arbitrary, and is non- existent in the Bible. Again, please show a verse where the word “being” is used and how we are supposed to distinguish this from a “person”. Next, the third person of the Godhead cannot merely be Jesus “spirit.” This is not a third person, or third being in any way. Jesus Spirit cannot be called a third person as that would make no logical, no divine and no common sense. The Spirit is Christ’s “representative” and as such, stands for Christ, but is a third distinct person hence part of a “heavenly trio.” To explain away “trio” as actually meaning duo just doesn’t “add up”. You said, “To the question: Was there ever a time when God became a father? I answer: was there ever a time when God lacked wisdom? Let's stick to what the Bible reveals. The Bible declares that before the creation of all things, Jesus was born.” 1. The answer to both questions is no. There was never a time that God was without wisdom meaning Proverbs 8 is poor example of using a poetical chapter and book to try to declare literal realities. Wisdom is personified as a woman. Is Jesus a woman. Proverbs 8 says nothing about “Jesus” being born. The bible nowhere in its 66 books “declares that before creation of all things, Jesus was born.” Here is my challenge to you. Provide the text that says this. I will wait here for this answer before address the rest of your response. One text that says Jesus was begotten before his incarnation.
@@powerofthelamb Ok in my long comment, i gave you the texts.But I see you don't want to answer my questions. My translation "iner being" is incorrect but you had the texts: Romans 7:22 (KJV) 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 2 Corinthians 4:16 (KJV) 16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. Ephesians 3:16 (KJV) 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; You make statements and you don't present any Bible verses that contradict me or any verses that support your statements. Is there a single verse in the Bible that describes the Holy Spirit as identical to the Father and the Son? Show me. Is there a single verse where we see the Holy Spirit talking with the Father or talking with the Son of God? Show me too. You said :« Going against the church doctrinal is basically to declare the church is a part of Babylon. Is this what you are declaring? ». I know this quote from 1896 and it is correct at that time. Babylon means confusion. If you can answer my questions without contradicting the Bible, you'll have the answer to your own question. I'm not saying that the church is Babylon, I'm not accusing my brothers even though the church doesn't consider me a brother. And no doctrine can save a man. You said: You are trying to establish a definition for the word "being" to nullify how Ellen White used it to refer to the Spirit. Why not go to the 1828 Webster's dictionary term for "being" and "person"? Ellen White uses the term "person" 17,128 times. Are you ready to say that she never used the word "person" interchangeably with "being"? Are you sure you want to go this route? So let's get to it! But if we don't agree on the Bible we won't agree on EGW's writings either. I know Ellen White used the term "third being" in Sermons and talks, and I also know she specified who she was talking about. Are you sure the 17128 times were used to describe God? Are you sure she never said that the third person is Christ? She was very careful with the word when she wrote. Are you sure she used the phrase "third being" more times than "third person" or interchangeably? When you read "third person" in DA, keep reading the paragraph! You've used Webster's dictionary and I accept those definitions. However, allow me a simple illustration: you are pastor, father, husband and brother all at once. All these titles represent persons in the eyes of those who associate with you, but you are one being. And all those who know you see the same being. What I mean is that a being can be represented differently by its functions. So I say that the "person" represents "a being". So in Luke 1:35 (KJV) 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. The Spirit then represents God the Father. It is by this means that he has manifested his presence. If the Holy Spirit is a "being", then there is a third source of life in heaven, and Jesus is the Son of God the Holy Spirit! Other text: Exodus 25:22 (KJV) 22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel. Who manifests himself to Israel: God the Holy Spirit? This person who is a being was poured out at Pentecost and does not share the throne in Revelation 22:2-3? Show me one verse that says God the Holy Spirit and one verse that says God the Son! Does the cat of Mike mean the same thing as Mike the cat? No. And yet that's what you do with the Bible! Concerning wisdom, you said : 1. The answer to both questions is no. There was never a time that God was without wisdom meaning Proverbs 8 is poor example of using a poetical chapter and book to try to declare literal realities. Wisdom is personified as a woman. Is Jesus a woman. Proverbs 8 says nothing about "Jesus" being born. The bible nowhere in its 66 books "declares that before creation of all things, Jesus was born." Here is my challenge to you. Provide the text that says this. I will wait here for this answer before address the rest of your response. One text that says Jesus was begotten before his incarnation. Apart from denying an obvious text, you have proved nothing. « Wisdom is personified as a woman. Is Jesus a woman. » When Jesus spoke in a parable in John 15:5 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Is Jesus a tree? That's not an argument. But Jesus the faithful witness himself says that he is the wisdom. Compare Matthew 23:34 and Luke 11:49 Matthew 23:34 (KJV) 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: Luke 11:49 (KJV) 49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: Jesus clearly refers to himself as the wisdom of God. And the apostle Paul confirms this in 1 Corinthians 1:22-24. Here's what EGW has to say on the subject: « Study carefully the first chapter in Patriarchs and Prophets. From this chapter, I quote: 21LtMs, Lt 256, 1906, par. 7 “The Sovereign of the universe was not alone in His work of beneficence. He had an associate-a co-worker who could appreciate His purposes, and could share His joy in giving happiness to created beings. ‘In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.’ [John 1:1, 2.] Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father-one in nature, in character, in purpose, the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. ‘His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of peace.’ [Isaiah 9:6.] His ‘goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.’ [Micah 5:2.] And the Son of God declares concerning Himself: ‘The Lord possessed Me in the beginning of His way, before the works of old. I was set up from everlasting. ... When He appointed the foundations of the earth, then was I with Him, as one brought up with Him; and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him.’ [Proverbs 8:22, 23, 29, 30.] 21LtMs, Lt 256, 1906, par. 8 Well, well, she quotes Isaiah 9:6 and Proverbs 8! Jesus is the only being? This quote dates from 1906! Do any verses say that Jesus is the Spirit? Of course there are! To begin with, John 17:23;26 How ? By His Spirit. John 14:21 (KJV) 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Paul clearly distinguishes God from Christ his Lord: 1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Identifying the Lord, he said: 2 Corinthians 3:17 (KJV) 17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Corinthians 13:5 (KJV) 5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? Galatians 2:20 (KJV) 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. How can Christ live in me if not by His Spirit? Galatians 4:6 (KJV) 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Sure, we disagree, but at least you have my texts. However, you still haven't presented me with a single verse that supports your assertions! And you haven't answered any of my questions.
@@robertrochemont1658what you wrote was very long and I read every word and you are spot on! How anyone can twist the scriptures and make it a trinity and believe it is beyond me! The Bible says that God will let a strong delusion come upon to believe a lie because they rejected truth! When you have to twist the scriptures to try to prove your point you are deceiving yourself, the scriptures are so plain that a child can understand!
This was not a debate. Please don’t deceive people thinking they will see something just to try to indoctrinate them with the doctrine that came from Rome. It would have been a debate if you would have invited a true none-trinitarian on your space.
@@pilgrimsprogress6797 It is not up to me to expose my viewers to error. You may not like the representations but they are not misrepresentations. They are conclusions you may choose to deny as the reality of your position sounds jarring, but it is the truth. You are denoting Jesus, denying the third person of the Godhead. I have no reason to lie to my viewers.
Pastor ivor myers, can you explain what is meant by what ellen white says here The Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father, is truly God in infinity, but not in personality. Ellen G. White, Ms. 116, 1905, Dec. 19. I really hope these pastors will give an answer to this
“Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. (There are the two personalities, but God and Christ are one in perfection of character.) . 20LtMs, Ms 116, 1905, par. 15
@powerofthelamb ok so the perfection of character is the truly God of infinity (trying to make the connection to the quote I shared) but what about the personality part. To me this is saying that the name God belongs to the Father, while not so much the Son. I know there are verses that calls Jesus God but I'm wondering if the Norm is that the Father is referred to as God. I'm not trying to diminish the fact that Jesus is God just wanted to state that
@@powerofthelamb Either way, the distinction is: “The Scriptures clearly indicate the relation between God and Christ, and they bring to view as clearly the personality and individuality of each. (Hebrews 1:1-5 quoted) God is the Father of Christ; Christ is the Son of God. To Christ has been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father. All the counsels of God are opened to His Son.” - Testimonies, vol. 8, p. 268 Making Jesus into a co-eternal twin God who takes a role as a functioning son, makes no distinction that He is the literal Son of God.
He is God in Infinity, meaning Eternity and Equality (in His Preincarnate state)... ...but not in Personality, meaning not the Same Person. They are Separate and Distinct, but still have the prerogatives of God.
@fredaregeokongo3135 The man who refuses to have his understanding quickened by the Spirit of God is in a state of blindness. He cannot appreciate the beauties of holiness, neither can he discern the deformity of sin. What a dreadful thing is willful spiritual blindness. Those who are spiritually blind, claim to be able to lead the blind; but they have closed their eyes to the light which has been graciously given them of God to show them the way to heaven, and in place of traveling the royal path cast up for the ransomed of the Lord to walk in, they follow another leader, even Satan. ST November 6, 1893, par. 3
23:52 this is what the Jews Meant John 19:7 KJV The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
Genesis 1:26 does not tell us who was there, but we know from Job 38:7 that angels were present at creation. Humans are made in the image of God, yet they are a little lower than the angels (Psalm 8:5). It is therefore reasonable to conclude that angels are made more in the image of God than humans. If this is so, then it makes sense for God to request the assistance of angels in the creation of man. God is still the creator, the angels were merely assisting, like a team of nurses may help the surgeon, yet the surgeon is said to have performed the surgery. Most likely God was speaking to angelic beings who also have human characteristics of language, reason, judgment, music, and ability to choose, meaning we have a similar image to angels. Granted, the text does not state that God spoke to angelic beings, but it makes simple logical sense. There are multiple problems with using John 8:58 to say Jesus is claiming to be God: 1. Earlier in this same conversation Jesus explicitly told them that he is a man: “you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.” John 8:40 NASB 2. In verse 42 Jesus again reinforces that God is someone else, and he has only been sent by God. Jesus said, “I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.” NASB 3. Jesus is answering the question that was raised in verse 53, “Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died?" The answer Jesus gave them was an explanation over multiple verses which meant “Yes, I am greater than Abraham” (because he is God's Messiah). 4. The translation of verse 58 itself is a problem. A more correct translation would say something like, “…I am before Abraham was.” Many teach that Jesus is claiming to be the “I AM”. However, even though it can be said to be based on Exodus, the Jews did not use this as a name for God, and the Greek words were simply “ego eimi”, meaning “I am the one” or “it is me”. Even the man healed from blindness used this exact “ego eimi” statement a few verses later, in John 9:9. Nobody thought the blind man claimed to be God because he said “ego eimi”/I am. We also have Judas (Matt 26:25), Gabriel (Luke 1:19), Peter (Acts 10:21) and Paul (Acts 22:3, 26:29, Rom 11:13, 1 Tim 1:15) refering to themselves as "ego eimi." Jesus himself, in John chapter 8, several times used “ego eimi” (8:12,16,18,23,24,28), but none of the Jews during this prior discussion ever supposed Jesus was referring to the divine name of God. For example, when Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I am you will die in your sins," the Jews did not respond by supposing that Jesus was claiming to be Yahweh. If the Jews had understood Jesus at any time to have claimed to be God Himself, they would have used this against Him in His trial. But their question to Him was “Are you then the Son of God?” (Luke 22:70, Mat. 26:63-65), and they declared his positive response of sonship a blasphemy. The claim that the leadership was super-zealous for God is false. The true reason they wanted Jesus dead was due to their envy (Mat. 27:18, Mark 15:10). Furthermore, the Devil himself, in the temptation said, “If you are the Son of God...” (Mat. 4:3,6). The stoning: Chapter 8 is a continuation of chapter 7 in which we read, “...Jesus was walking in Galilee, for He was unwilling to walk in Judea because the Jews were seeking to kill Him” (7:1). “Why do you seek to kill Me?" (7:19). “Some of the people of Jerusalem were saying, "Is this not the man whom they are seeking to kill?” (7:25). “The chief priests and the Pharisees sent officers to seize Him” (7:32). In chapter 8 we also read Jesus saying, “you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you” (8:37). To ignore this background and instead claim that the intention to stone was because he claimed to be God is baseless, as that was their intention all along. The Jewish leaders knew that if Jesus truly was the Messiah they would have to bow to Him in obedience and submission. This was revolting to their proud hearts. Just claiming to be greater than Abraham was enough to anger them. Steven was stoned for less than this! Even Paul said that he had formerly been a blasphemer, but it is highly unlikely that Paul had ever claimed to be God, so the blasphemy charge cannot be evidence of an actual claim of Jesus being God.
My husband explains it like this… That at some point God somehow took a piece of Himself in order to supply the Sacrifice. It’s hard for us to wrap our heads around that, but this gives us an easier way to understand.what God has done in order to create beings that are given an ability to choose… so beautiful This is why they are separate, yet they are ONE…
@@Cryaloud There are three parts of the Godhead. The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. We will be looking into this subject for all eternity I believe. I’m not going to worry about it. Just going to pray every day to know my God better and be thankful for Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross that washes my sins and wipes my slate clean, PTL! 🙏☝️🙌
@@DeborahSnow-id6io Study the scriptures and accept nothing but a plain "Thus sayeth the Lord". Godhead is not the same as Trinity. Also, we all believe there is the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit , that's biblical. What is not biblical is to claim Almighty God is made up of three persons namely Father, Son, and Holy Spirit..that's unscriptural. The Bible makes it plain that Almighty God is the Father and the Father has the only begotten Son who is divine and received all the powers, glory and dominion from the Father to be equal with God, the Father.
If God consists of three entities, then He cannot be independent or indivisible. A God composed of multiple entities suggests that each entity is insufficient on its own. If one entity is powerful enough, why would we need three?
"The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the three holy dignitaries of heaven, have declared that they will strengthen men to overcome the powers of darkness. All the facilities of heaven are pledged to those who by their baptismal vows have entered into a covenant with God.”-5 Bible Commentary, 1110. (Manuscript 92,1901). Are you suggesting that the Godhead is insufficient?
@@User-f2f2v I am unsure if the Godhead is sufficient. The very idea of needing a pantheon of three entities raises the question of whether three is enough. In other words, if one entity is not enough, it is uncertain how many are needed for the pantheon to be self-sufficient.
@@powerofthelamb What I have shown is that the depiction of God as Three entities is no different than the polytheistic Gods of the Romans, or the ancient Greeks. Each of these ancient Gods by themselves were weak and incomplete, and therefore relied on the strength of the pantheon for completeness.
SDA vs Catholic vs Anti-trinitarian CATHOLIC TRINITY The Trinity of the Catholic Church is derived from Greek philosophy and teaches that it is the Father who eternally generates the Son. The Son is seen as having been derived/begotten by the Father while the Holy Spirit proceeds from both. This implies that the generation of the Son depends on the Father theologically and that the Father is the only one without origin. The Catholic Church affirms the eternal subordination of the Son. ANTI-TRINITARIANS Anti-Trinitarians have substantial similarities to the Roman Catholic Church’s concept of the trinity. They seem to have inherited the Roman Catholic Church’s understanding of God with the Son in subordination to the Father having been begotten in a birthing event deriving his existence from the Father. This similarity is also seen in the procession of the Holy Spirit from both the Father and Son. SDA GODHEAD The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one Godhead or one God with three co-eternal, co-equal divine Persons each God, in perfect unity though distinct from one another, None is the origin of the others. The anti-trinitarians in reality are expounding Roman Catholic trinity doctrine and it is possible that Rome herself is at the head of their movement and has them deceived.
After Christ was born in heaven (John 5:26) "there was never a time when the SON and FATHER where not together." Not in eternity, but from eternity Proverbs 8:25 says "Before the mountains were settle , before the hills was I brought Fourth (to give birth). The FATHER was ALONE In one point in eternity!!!
Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting Christ always existed. He is God.
So at what point he was not a Father? John 5:26 says nothing about Jesus being born in heaven. Jesus was born on earth. Proverbs 8:25? It's a proverb. It's not literal.
@@unknowngod5533 We all believe He is the Son of God. What is the argument? Why are you posting verses as if we don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God?
@@powerofthelamb If we all believe He is the Son of God, why then does Angel Manuel Rodriguez writes the following :“The term “Son” is used metaphorically when applied to the Godhead” (Angel Rodriguez, “A Question of Sonship” BRI article) ?
We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we forget God's leading and His teaching in our past history. Contend for the faith once delivered to the apostles and hold fast to that which is true.
"If a brother differs with you on some points of truth, do not stoop to ridicule; do not place him in a false light or misconstrue his words, making sport of them; do not misinterpret his words and wrest them of their true meaning. This is not conscientious argument. Do not present him before others as a heretic, when you have not with him investigated his positions, taking the Scriptures text by text in the spirit of Christ to show him what is truth. You do not yourself really know the evidence he has for his faith, and you cannot clearly define your own position. Take your Bible, and in a kindly spirit weigh every argument that he presents and show him by the Scriptures if he is in error. When you do this without unkind feelings, you will do only that which is your duty and the duty of every minister of Jesus Christ." (Lt21-1888)
Amen.
Pray for the Holy Spirit, not to the Holy Spirit - "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" - Luke 11:13
If there is only one being was Jesus praying to himself in Gethsemane😢
I believe in the God-head. I believe that God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and God the Father are distinct individuals and yet are one in action, word and thought.
WHY do we FLIP - adding or removing BIBLE MEANING ?
SON OF GOD
to
GOD THE SON
and why does a PASTOR GIVE THE A HEARTED REPLY
@@Simon-Simon-Simon The Son of God is Almighty God or God the Son.
@@Patel-ce4vcwhy can’t people believe the Bible and SOP which says there is ONE God and no other?
@@bobbi2235The Godhead is one God. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost
@@User-f2f2vyou don’t understand because you don’t want to, when Jesus was baptized He was out of the water but He spoke from heaven and said, This is MY SON? That was 2 places!
Are we not misrepresenting the people on this topic? Is it helpful to discuss this topic when both panel members have the same views? Have we tried to approach one of the leading voices of this one true God movement to a discussion and they refused? I would like to hear from both sides rather than having a one dimensional conversation which is not solving any problem
None of them would ever do it; It seems no one will touch it and instead strawmen are constructed to be torn down.
‘The Godhead’ as EGW used it means divinity not a number or an amalgamation of persons.
The Heavenly trio then, if you prefer.
"...as to the Being of God,-the Godhead,-Divinity as revealed in the Father, the Word (the Son), and the Holy Spirit, we [SDAs] believe and teach just what the Bible says, and nothing else. No man can by searching find out God. No creature can understand the Almighty to perfection. The finite mind cannot comprehend infinity..."
---E. J. Waggoner, The Present Truth for 1902 - Vol. 18 - No. 06, pg. 83)
“YOU ASK WHAT WE TEACH ABOUT THE TRINITY. INASMUCH AS WE FIND NO SUCH EXPRESSION IN THE SCRIPTURE, WE DO NOT TEACH ANYTHING ABOUT IT. BUT as to the Being of God,-the Godhead,-Divinity as revealed in the Father, the Word (the Son), and the Holy Spirit, we believe and teach just what the Bible says, and nothing else. No man can by searching find out God. No creature can understand the Almighty to perfection. The finite mind cannot comprehend infinity. THEREFORE, IN DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE TRINITY, ABOUT THE NATURE OF GOD, CHRIST AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, ARE MANIFESTATIONS OF GROSS PRESUMPTION. (E.J. Waggoner “”The Editor’s Private Corner. The Spirit that Witnesses” The Present Truth 18, 6. 1902)
@@pilgrimsprogress6797 nothing to disagree with here.
It’s not a disagreement, it’s just showing what Chris left out.
What a hard time Wohlberg had trying to tear down the clear testimony of Scripture in John 17:3. A typical interpreter of the law.
How are we to be one as The Father and Son are one as Jesus prayed in John 17 if they are One being? That is weird. I do not think there is any other biblical definition of being one given except that and the answer and fulfillment of Jesus' prayer in Acts 1, and 2 and throughout the new testament in regards to Jesus'Church.
We are not to take away from or add to the scriptures, we are warned severely about that. But teaching the Trinity always seems to involve both.
The original Ellen White notes for the three persons Quote says 3 personalities fwiw...
How do we understand these verses in contrast to what wolberg said about John 17:3 ???
Jesus speaking again:
Message to the Church in Philadelphia
7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
****12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.***
There was never a time when Christ was not in close fellowship with the Father. True. Did time always exist? I'm just asking because I believe time itself was created.
There should not be an either or dilemma between believing Jesus is truly God's son and him being fully divine and God . He is the fully Divine Son of God, actually called the Mighty God by the Almighty God. in Isaiah 9:6 and other verses. He identified himself to Moses like this: I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God...13And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations"
And Moses, Joshua and the Elders saw the God of Israel in Exodus 24.
Never the less Jesus refers to his Father as " My God" and always does what pleases his Father...
The Father and Son are equal but have different roles. Jesus sits at the right hand of his Father, not vice versa. I don't understand why that's so hard to comprehend?
BEWARE THAT WE DO NOT MISS THE ISSUES
1. The issue is not that Jesus is not God. Jesus is God by nature - same nature and character as His Father. But Jesus has a God who begot Him (John 1:14). Jesus has a God who anoints Him (Heb.1:9). Jesus has a God who appoints Him (Heb. 1:2). Jesus has a God who sends Him (John 17:18). Jesus has a God whose will He does (John 6:38). Jesus has a God who reveals things to Him (John 5:20). Jesus has a God who gives Him power (1 Cor. 15:27). There is concern that Jesus is being diminished. Really? It is the Father who is being diminished. He dwells in light that no man can approach unto (1 Tim. 6:16). No one anoints Him. No one appoints Him. No one sends Him. No one reveals anything to Him. No one instructs Him (Isa. 40:13). He does the will of no one but His own will. No one gives Him power. He can swear by none greater than Himself (Heb. 6:13). It is His name that the saved will have written in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1). The entire family in heaven and in earth is named after Him (Eph. 3:15).
2. The issue is not that the Father and Son are not one in the sense of being united. Jesus and His Father are one in the same sense that Jesus prayed that His disciples should be one - “that they may be one, even as we are one” (John 17:22). The Father and Son are one in the sense of being united, but they are not one in the sense of being one God. We are one with Christ and through Christ we will be one with the Father - “I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one” (John 17:23), but we will never be one God with the Father.
3. The issue is not that the Holy Spirit is not a person separate from God and Christ. Rather, it is that The Holy Spirit is sent by God and not a co-equal with God; and there is no biblical precedent of anyone worshipping the Holy Spirit.
4. God gave His only begotten Son to die for us. It was not an eternal God who cannot die, who simply came and appeared to die but, in reality, cannot die.
5. The Trinity concept is not simply that there is a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit who are united. The Trinity concept is that the three are the one God. The Bible does not teach that the one God is three persons. Rather the Bible teaches that there is one supreme Being who is above all, and whose will governs the universe - One God and Father of all, who is above all” (Eph. 4:6). The relationship between Pharaoh and Joseph illustrates the relationship between God and Christ - one is the supreme ruler and the other is like the Prime Minister - “And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See, I have set thee over all the land of Egypt. And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck; And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee: and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt. And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I am Pharaoh, and without thee shall no man lift up his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.” (Gen. 41:41-44). Joseph was not Pharaoh, but he was like Pharaoh, with similar authority because Pharaoh so determined. Likewise, God is the Supreme Being, with Jesus being Michael - the one who is like God, because God, his Father has so appointed Him.
The pioneers had it right, the apostles had it right, the Jews had it right - that there was one supreme Being, who sent His Son into the world. Why should God’s people today abandon the pioneers, the apostles and the Jews and embrace the popular view of paganism, Catholism and apostate Protestantism? We have a choice to come to the Father through Christ or we can do otherwise to our own confusion and peril. The choice is ours.
But although Christ's divine glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man. The human did not take the place of the divine, nor the divine of the human. This is the mystery of godliness.
The two expressions "human" and "divine" were, in Christ, closely and inseparably one, and yet they had a distinct individuality.{5BC 1129.3}
Your statements are in the context of Christ's incarnation.
@@Patel-ce4vc Not quite. The Father "anointed" His Son before the incarnation - "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows" (Heb.1:8, 9). Even as God, the Son has a God who anoints Him.
Because He has His Father’s name by inheritance.
@@ElijahAndMosesJesus was anointed at his baptism. So the context was his incarnation .
In A.D. 27, Jesus at His baptism received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, and soon afterward began His yyministry. Then the message was proclaimed, “The time is fulfilled.” The Desire of Ages, 232-234.
Amen!
In the future @Ivor Myers, is there a way your team could increase the volume? I rather have to turn down the volume cause too much rather than trying to find ways to hear cause volume is too low.
Please and thank you 💝💝💝.
We need to go back to round table Bible studybon this issue in all our churches to understand truth. Then we will be more aligned. Scripture cannot be broken.
"The world was made by him, “and without him was not anything made that was made.” If Christ made all things, he existed before all things. The words spoken in regard to this are so decisive that no one need be left in doubt. Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense." {RH April 5, 1906, par. 6}
Christ Jehovah is eternal.
Amen
Two beloved brothers! We appreciate you for all the good work you have and are doing. In this discussion you say many good things that true hearted disciples of Jesus and students of the Bible do agree on together. But often throughout you take turns sounding like scratching nails on a chalk board! So wrong! May the spirit of Jesus (1 Peter 1:11) correct you sooner rather than later.🙏
Amen! The majority of Adventist will be shaken out, they think it will be nontrinitarians, we are not the majority and will never be! Jesus said they will put you out of the Synagogue, I was put out a few weeks ago for speaking against the trinity. No one will listen, pastors or congregations.
Out of interest sake, where were the nails scratching? I'd like to investigate the matter for myself🙏
The context is Godhead...3 distinct, individuals...one in Unity, purpose and execution...the Oneness is not numerical... according to the Hebrew word " Ahad. "...Blessings family...good work ☺️☺️
There is no such definition of Godhead in the Bible. The term is used to mean Trinity but that's not what the Bible teaches.
Please check with your Bible again the true meaning of Godhood/ Godheid/Godhead.
Some anti-trinity folk claim to be Seventh-day Adventist yet will not accept Ellen White's definition of the Godhead.
The eternal Godhead-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost-is involved in the action required to make assurance to the human agent.”-Upward Look, 148.
@Mandy-yv4sf What an oxymoron. You are very close to the truth now. Are you aware that the Trinity is the central doctrine of the Catholic Church? Are you aware that ever since the Trinity doctrine was introduced in the fourth century it was the primary source of great schisms and persecutions, merciless massacres of those who held to the bible teaching of One true God and one Lord? Those who rejected the Trinity were enemies of Rome and remain so today. So let no man deceive you, Rome is behind the Trinity doctrine and against antitrinitarians not the other way round.
@@User-f2f2v that's not Ellen White's definition. That's Leroy Froom's definition. Do not be deceived. It is clear you don't study all Ellen White's writings without blinkers. Besides, it is not Ellen White's definition that counts but Bible definition. The word Godhead does not come from Ellen White but from the Bible so if not clear just refer back to the bible and let the bible be its own expositor. It is clear you are not aware that Ellen White warned about men who will write books in her name and change her writings.
Peace is quoted out of convenience. Jesus said also I came not to bring peace but a sword (the word that pierces...unto joint and marrow). How can we reject the Catholics ecumenical movement if we as a church are accepting of every belief and doctrine? There has to be dispute when there is error in the church. God told EGW to meet the error of Kellogg. We must meet the error and not keep silent.
We are TAKING PART in the Pontifs ecumenical movement! Our world church is a member of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. A church must be trinitarian to even get close to that, as it's a catholic organization. We are also a member of the World Council of Churches, who's membership also requires a trinitarian doctrine. That was actually one of LeRoy Frooms goals in bringing in the trinity.
Check out Adventist Review online, October 9, 2015, an article about the UN and ecumenical meetings.
This is the Omega. We must meet it. This is spiritualism
Which it is being said by false prophets “it never happened we progressed and moved forward.”
This anti-trinity doctrine in the SDA church is the Omega in verity.
Look back at our past history, before jumping to conclusions.
In Genesis the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. That is enough for me. The incidence with Ananias and his wife lying to the Holy Spirit, is more than enough for me
You probably didn't read Genesis chapter 6. Please visit it.
If you read Genesis 6, it can be read both ways.
@@Cryaloud what cult do you belong to? the catholic church??
@@Cryaloud did you not read the Bible?
What is enough for you in saying the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters? If you think that's evidence of triune God when the Bible plainly says God is the Father then seal yourself with half truth which is not truth.
My hope in leaving this comment is to edify the church and shine a light on a perspective that I think is inadvertently swept under the rug which is liberty of conscience.
The Adventist church was founded on sola scriptura. That is what I love about it and that is what the Lord intended to raise up in the midst of multiple counterfeit churches. When our fundamental beliefs were first established they stated: “Seventh-day Adventists have no creed but the Bible.” So all our doctrine is based on our understanding of the scriptures.
Now when the church leadership starts to impose beliefs that go contrary to what the Bible says then we need to ask ourselves who do we follow? I’ll give you an example when it comes to the subject of the Godhead and what has been said:
1. They chose roles
2. The word Son is a metaphor
3. To be God you must have no beginning
4. They are 1 but they are really 3, but no they are really 1
5. The Holy Spirit is not the Spirit of Christ yet its the Spirit of God
These are all points made by church leadership. But I can’t just blindly accept these as facts as they are not clearly defined and laid out in Spirit of Prophecy or scripture. Instead I should be allowed liberty of conscience.
I listened to a conference SDA pastor speak publicly on the “Godhead” issue that was dividing the church and he had the best reaction to the division it was causing. He quoted from the book of Acts:
Acts 5:38-39 (KJV) 38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
In 2020 my local SDA church leadership had a closed session and voted to not give me any leadership positions or allow me to speak in church because I started to study the subject of the Godhead and did not come to the same conclusions as the church. They did this without ever visiting my house, calling me or taking the time to sit with me. I look back and what I’m most saddened about is that a church is supposed to be a family. But when an establishment is threatened you are no longer viewed as family but as disposable.
With that being said, we need to study the word, we need to be led by the Spirit, we need to have oil in our lamps! Probation is closing soon, our focus should not be on 1, 2 or 3. Our focus should be is HOW DOES CHRIST ABIDE IN MY HEART? Because the oil is what will keep us out. If you focus on that, you will come to an understanding that surpasses any doctrine that may be laid out by finite man.
Blessings all🙏🏼
Many assumptions here that what you are calling error is actually error.
@@powerofthelamb I understand that these things were said because the persons that said it believe it to be true. And there are many things said by different religions that they believe to be true and they will even use scripture to prove that they are true. But we know we must use the whole Bible to establish truth, precept upon precept, line upon line. The points that I referenced cannot be found in scripture, they cannot be found in spirit of prophecy. They are conclusions made based on a preconceived understanding. Because of this, I should be allowed to study the Bible and have liberty of conscience to see if I agree with these statements.
The gospel has to be so clearly defined that even a child can understand it. When I was first studying this topic, I was still on the fence. I was open for the truth no matter what it was. I love my Church and I always will. There was a girl about ten years old who asked me out of nowhere how is Jesus God? She was a young girl who loved to study and would preach in the church. And instead of giving her the answer I said, you know the answer. She paused for a second, with wide eyes and an excited face she said to me “ah yes because he’s the son of God.”
Out of the mouth of babes, Pastor.
You are right, I had said a few things to some in the church and they told the pastor, so the pastor and elders held a meeting and decided that I needed to go, they are in the process of disfellowshipping me! I stand for truth and pray that I will never go back!🙏🏼
@@deer.7304
Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins *but God* only?
{Mark 2:7}
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, *God with us*
{Matthew 1:23}
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: *God* was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
{1 Timothy 3:16}
“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.”
{John 10:11}
...
“I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”
{John 10:14}
The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want...
{Psalm 23:1a}
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no Saviour.
{Isaiah 43:11}
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
{John 20:28}
Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
{Isaiah 48:12}
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; "I am the first and the last:
I am he that liveth, *and was dead* and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”
{Revelation 1:18}
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
{Philippians 2:5-6}
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
{Colossians 1:16-19}
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, *from everlasting*
{Micah 5:2}
@@deer.7304
And the LORD said, *My Spirit shall not always strive with man* for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
{Genesis 6:3}
They angered him also at the waters of strife, so that it went ill with Moses for their sakes:
*Because they provoked his Spirit* so that he spake unadvisedly with his lips.
{Psalm 106:33}
In all their affliction he was afflicted, and *the angel of his presence* saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
But they rebelled, *and vexed his holy Spirit* therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
{Isaiah 63:9-10} (Ps 78:40-41)
*The Spirit of God hath made me* and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
{Job 33:4}
Cast me [David] not away *from thy presence* and take not *thy holy Spirit* from me.
{Psalm 51:11}
(The holy Spirit is omnipresent)
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
{Psalm 139:7-10}
Then was *Jesus led up of the Spirit* into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
{Matthew 4:1}
“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: *but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him* neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”
{Matthew 12:32} (Mark 3:28-29)
“And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you *another* [of the same kind] Comforter that he may abide with you for ever;
Even *the Spirit of truth* whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; *for he dwelleth with you* and shall be in you.”
{John 14:16-17}
"But the Comforter, which is *the Holy Ghost* whom the Father will send in my name, *he shall teach you* all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever *I have said* unto you.”
{John 14:26}
“But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, *he shall testify* of me:”
{John 15:26-27}
“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, *the Comforter* will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
And when *he* is come, *he* will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:”
{John 16:7-8}
(This is why grieving the holy Spirit cannot be forgiven if we do not allow him to convict us of our unrighteousness.)
(The holy Spirit is omniscient)
“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, *he will guide you into all truth* for *he shall not speak of himself* but whatsoever *he shall hear* that *shall he speak* and *he will shew you* things to come.”
{John 16:13}
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, *as the Spirit gave them utterance*
{Acts 2:4} (read verses 1-3 also for context)
(The holy Spirit is omnipotent)
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath satan filled thine heart *to lie to the Holy Ghost* and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? *thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God*
And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
{Acts 5:3-5}
[Steven] Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, *ye do always resist the Holy Ghost* as your fathers did, so do ye.
{Acts 7:51}
Then *the Spirit said unto Philip* Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
{Acts 8:29}
While Peter thought on the vision, *the Spirit said unto him* Behold, three men seek thee.
Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: *for I have sent them*
{Acts 10:19-20}
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, *the Holy Ghost said* Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
{Acts 13:2}
For *it seemed good to the Holy Ghost* and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
{Acts 15:28}
Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, *and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia*
After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: *but the Spirit suffered them not*
{Acts 16:7-8}
*The Spirit itself* beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
{Romans 8:16}
Likewise *the Spirit* also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but *the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us* with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints *according to the will of God*
{Romans 8:26-27}
Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, *and for the love of the Spirit* that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;
{Romans 15:30}
And *grieve not the holy Spirit of God whereby ye are sealed* unto the day of redemption.
{Ephesians 4:30}
But God hath revealed them unto us *by his Spirit* for *the Spirit searcheth all things* yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, *but the Spirit of God*
{1 Corinthians 2:10-11}
But all these worketh that *one and the selfsame Spirit* dividing to every man severally *as he will*
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For *by one Spirit* are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into *one Spirit*
{1 Corinthians 12:11-13}
Now *the Spirit speaketh expressly* that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
{1 Timothy 4:1}
Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
{Hebrews 3:7-9}
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through *the eternal Spirit* offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
{Hebrews 9:14}
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
{Hebrews 10:29}
“He that hath an ear, let him hear what *the Spirit* saith unto the churches.”
{Revelation 2:7; 2:11; 2:17; 2:29; 3:6; 3:13; 3:22}
And *the Spirit* and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
{Revelation 22:17}
I appreciate the attempt to have this very complex topic clarified. Most times, I realize pastors and scholars try to use theology and human reasoning to understand the Godhead. We also try to use the Spirit of Prophecy books to clarify certain topics. However, I believe certain scriptural passages are written for a reason. Firstly, if scripture is written without the guide of the Holy Spirit, then the devil would have calculated God's plan of redemption and destroy it. 1 Corinthians 2.8 says, "None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." One of the most important components to understand God is to have His Spirit - the Holy Spirit. See Apostle Paul and John and other Holy men were driven by the Holy Spirit to write the scripture. I asked each one of us to ask for the Holy spirit in the name of Jesus Christ so we can understand these things. "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side has made Him known." John 1.18.
The narrative got out of hand, but that doesn't make Christianity untrue...
Clement trained by Peter,
recognized in Philippians 4:3
By Paul, ran the first church in Rome
60-90AD
1 Clement 59:4.
"Let all the Gentiles know that
🫱Thou art the God alone, and
✌️Jesus Christ is Thy Son.
Irenaeus~ Against Heresies 3.9.1 (180-200AD)
The Lord Himself handing down to His disciples, that He, the Father, is the
🫱only God and Lord, who
alone is "God and ruler of all"…
Two separate individuals
just like King Charles and Prince William.
200-400 years AFTER the apostles, new converts imposed the Pre-flood Hindu mystery Trinity, without Apostolic procession or a Biblical framework to match.
BTW🇺🇲 America's Only been a country 247 Years, and we definitely are
NOT "early Americans"?!
So true
I thought a debate was to present both sides so people could make an informed decision. This was not a debate. As the late Neal Wilson said, "SDA church is the next great Catholic church". A man at the head, trinity, commanding to abstain from meats meant to be received(clean).
I believe this would be better received, if there was the opposition belief to debate with. The pioneers prayed earnestly and had discussion’s with each other to reach their conclusions led by the spirit. No discussion with one another means no progress for those who may or may not be misled, god loves all and died for all.
I agree that both sides should be presented and the leaders of the one true God side have offered and are willing but so far no Trinity leader has offered to come forward. Let's be careful on saying who died . It was the Son of God who was indeed both Devine and human who died. God the Father cannot die.
@@godschurch8332 🙏
AMEN. EXCELLENT AND GREAT STUDY. ❤❤❤❤
We got to be careful of calling the spirit of God a third person because we have a problem with how many spirits are there?...
King James Bible
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.....John 6:63-70
King James Version
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Acts 7:59 "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." --- Stephen was calling upon Lord Jesus his God
"I entreat every one to be clear and firm regarding the certain truths that we have heard and received and advocated. The statements of God's Word are plain.
Plant your feet firmly on the platform of etemal truth.
Reject every phase of error, even though it be covered with a semblance of reality, which denies the personality of God and of Christ .” Ellen G. White, RH, August 31, 1905
SDAs don’t deny the personalities of any of the three persons of the Godhead.
Three personalities; and these three personalities are the pledged power from God that His people shall have, if they have been baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 21LtMs, Ms 139, 1906, par. 15
What about non trinitarians, do they believe in the above statement? Or do they often baptize in the name of Jesus only and claim that the threefold name which comprises the three living persons of the Trio is NOT the name that we should be baptized in?
There you have it folks. The denial is that there is no distinction of there being one who is the true living God and denying Jesus own words in John 17:3 That the Father is the one true God by saying “what about Jesus, He is the true living God.” This is the denial Chris. The Father says He has a Son, but man make it to say he didn’t have Son but a co-eternal twin that has the title or role of a son which makes God a liar.
“If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: *he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son* . (1 John 5:9-10)
Be careful in the way you walk because this was the way of Kellogg, who used Ellen White to justify his own erroneous theories. The context is baptism not the personality of God and of Christ.
Chris, she still believed in a personal God. Not in today’s belief in God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
“Before he left them, Christ gave his followers a positive promise that after his ascension he would send them the Holy Spirit. “ *Go ye therefore,” he said, “and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father [a personal God,] and of the Son [a personal Prince and Saviour], and of the Holy Ghost [sent from heaven to represent Christ* ]: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, *lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.* ” HM July 1, 1897, Art. A, par. 16
This is how she understood the Heavenly Trio:
“Let them be thankful to God for His manifold mercies and be kind to one another. *They have one God and one Saviour; and one Spirit-the Spirit of Christ* -is to bring unity into their ranks.” SpTB04 23.3
@@pilgrimsprogress6797 we believe that God the Father is a distinct person from God the Son and God the Holy Spirit as well. When we say God in three persons it is referring to the fact that the Godhead is just one Godhead comprised of three persons. Note that even the authors that anti trinitarians profess to revere would agree on this point:
“MC Wilcox on "one God": "Deut. 6:4 is simply an expression of the unity of the Godhead : "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." Many times, when mention is made of God, it simply implies the Godhead. Of course, there is absolute unity in that, just as truly as though there were but one Person; and therefore it is spoken of as one."
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: Deuteronomy 6:4
This union between the Father and the Son does not detract from either, but strengthens both. Through it, in connection with the Holy Spirit, we have all of DEITY. Uriah Smith {1898 UrS, LUJ 17.1}
The Holy Spirit united with the Father and the Son to create the world, as He still unites with them to save each soul,-three glorious persons in one only God over all, blessed for ever.” L Gaussen Present Truth 6/28/1900
@@pilgrimsprogress6797 what’s wrong w coeternal? Doesn’t Inspiration teach that all three dignitaries are eternal?
The eternal heavenly dignitaries-God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit-arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, ... would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.-Manuscript 130, 1901. Ev 616.4
Could we get either Pastor Ivor or Pastor Steve to give us a biblical definition of what being one means?
1. Does God change?
Malachi 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever.
2. Can God lie?
Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, that thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3. Jesus says that the testimony of the FATHER is true.
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
John 5:36 But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
4. What is the testimony of GOD THE FATHER?
1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
5. GOD THE FATHER said Jesus is His beloved Son.
Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Luke 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
Romans 1:3 Concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
6. What were the chosen disciples to be witnesses of?
They were the chosen repositories of the truth of God. They were witnesses of the Father’s acknowledgment of Jesus as the Son of God. At the baptism of Christ they had heard the voice of the Father proclaiming: “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” On the mount of transfiguration they had beheld the excellent glory clothing the Saviour with the brightness of the sun. They had seen the Heavenly messengers conversing with the Saviour, and heard again the voice of God declare: “This is my beloved Son, hear him.” In the temple, only a few hours before, they had again heard the Father exalt and glorify his Son. That which these favored disciples had seen and felt and heard in regard to the Redeemer they were commissioned to testify for the benefit of humanity through all time. And, by living faith, men must lay hold of Christ through the evidence of these chosen witnesses of his divinity, and power unto salvation. {ST January 24, 1878, par. 10}
1st. (Baptism - Matthew 3:17 “And lo a voice from heaven, saying, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”)
2nd. (Transfiguration - Matthew 17:5 “While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.” Luke 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, this is my beloved Son: hear him.)
3rd. (Temple - John 12:28 “Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, [saying], I have both glorified [it], and will glorify [it] again.”)
The testimony of Almighty God having been given, the cloud lifted and scattered in the heavens. The visible communion between the Father and the Son was ended for that time. {3SP 78.3}
Some solemnly declared their faith in Jesus as the Son of God, while others tried to explain away the remarkable scene they had just witnessed. {3SP 79.1}
The voice of God had been heard at the baptism of Jesus at the commencement of his ministry, and again at his transfiguration on the mount; and now, at the close of his ministry, it was heard for the third time, and on this occasion by a larger number of persons and under peculiar circumstances. He had just uttered the most solemn truths regarding the condition of the Jews. He had made his last appeal, and pronounced their doom. The wall of partition between Jew and Gentile was tottering and ready to fall at the death of Christ. {3SP 79.2}
7. King Nebuchadnezzar declared he saw the Son of God.
Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. 26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the Most High God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.
8. The apostles believed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God and they taught it.
Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
Mark 8:29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
Luke 9:20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.
John 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
John 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, we have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Peter had expressed the faith of the twelve. {DA 412.1} The truth which Peter had confessed is the foundation of the believer’s faith. {DA 412.3}
Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
John 4:29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
John 4:42 And said unto the woman, now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
John 7:41 Others said, this is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?
Acts 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
2 Corinthians 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, [even] by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
9. Martha believed that Jesus was the Son of God.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
10. The eunuch was not hindered (prevented) to be baptized for he confessed and believed Jesus Christ as the Son of God.
Acts 8:36 And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
11. The fallen angels said Jesus was the Son of God.
Matthew 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, what have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
At the name of Christ, even the devils believe, and tremble. They acknowledge that He is the Son of God, and yet they are devils still, and how greatly this increases their condemnation! {Lt 32, 1903, par. 5}
Mark 3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.
Mark 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, what have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
Luke 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, what have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God Most High? I beseech thee, torment me not.
Luke 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking [them] suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
Amen and Amen to this writ Wally.
You can’t give more teatemonies than that that jeuss is the son of the living father ♥️
This is such a deception by the enemy of our souls to cause such CONFUSION and distraction. All we have to do is believe what the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy says on this topic of the Holy Spirit and not try to overthink and take out context what the word of God says. Whatever the Lord did not reveal regarding the Holy Spirit leave it alone. Can you figure God out? The answer is No, so just accept what the Bible and what the pen of inspiration says. You are treading on dangerous grounds if you are even listening to the error. Jesus is truly coming when we see all these erroneous teachings out there. And the sad thing is they don’t even see their error nor humble enough to recant their errors. May the Lord help us all to know what we believe from the word of God. Saints of God do not listen to error especially if you are a new believer or if you are not settled into the foundational truth that we believe as SDA’s. Ask God to show you who’s speaking, if it’s Christ or the devil. Resist the devil,and he will flee from you. The pioneers listened and accepted correction when they were wrong and humbled themselves and stood corrected. So I don’t understand why our brethren in error don’t humble themselves and do the same. Let’s pray for those in error as they are our dear brothers and friends that are getting caught up in these errors. 🙏🏻 one thing I see that happen to some who has gotten caught up in error is that they eventually leave the faith or give up on God. 😢 if you don’t believe that the Holy Spirit is a person then How can He help you when the Bible says that He’s our comforter and helper?Mercy. Why not teach people how to have victory over sin and to be like Jesus rather than running around trying to convince the entire church into believing what you think is truth when if you think about it, you could be committing blasphemy. If anyone who once believed that the Holy Spirit is a person and has turned away from this belief Please Listen to your brethren that’s sharing this message on this video and don’t let pride stop you from returning back to the truth. 🙏🏻Jesus loves you and says come now let us reason saith the Lord. But come with open mind and hearts to hear the voice of the Lord. He truly loves you and don’t want you to be lost. All I want is to know the Lord more. I’m not going to get caught up in this because we have no time to waste on debates. Jesus is coming let’s get ready, be ready and stay ready. Maranatha. Be faithful! Thank you pastors for sharing this message, I pray that it save many souls from falling into the snare of satan.
Wow! The enemy does not want this message to get out.
The enemy doesn't want the old truth to be revealed. The truth established by God through the pioneers in fundamental principles of 1872 remains the biblical truth of the apostles. It never changes. The Trinity came as apostasy and we must expose it for what it is. Let's go back to our true Adventists position which is the biblical position: the non- trinitarian position.
@@Cryaloud
You do nor know the truth, because you do not know God.
@@Cryaloud Amen and very true.
The adversary strives to 'keep it buried'.
Our heavenly Father declares 'It will be resurrected.' Mal 4:5
@@larrybedouin2921 knowing God is knowing the Father and the Son, that the Father is the only true God and Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who came in the flesh to save that which was lost, in accordance to the scriptures. It is unbelievable that with all the evidence given in the scriptures, Adventists would see things in the same light with papists.
@@Cryaloud
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of *the great God* and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
{Titus 2:13}
καὶ σωτήρ < "and Savior" is a conjunction/cumulative to the great God...
You have the spirit of antichrist.
Temple of God the Holy Ghost
Compare
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
With
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Conclusion: The Holy Ghost is the living God.
the bible doesn't teach trinity, that is the founding doctrine (wine) of Babylon Catholic church
“For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;”
Colossians 2:9
Sir how can you read these quotes from EG White of the fall of Lucifer and not realize the Holy Spirit is nowhere to be found.
"The HOLY SPIRIT is the SPIRIT of CHRIST, which is sent to all men to give them sufficiency,” - MR 14, p. 84
“We want the HOLY SPIRIT, which is JESUS CHRIST.” - Letter 66, April 10, 1894
“but it is the leaven of the SPIRIT of JESUS CHRIST, which is sent down from heaven, called the HOLY GHOST,” - Manuscript 36-1891
@@lesirterholland5186 ❤️ these quotes, keep it going that all may truly see Sister White understanding of who the Comforter is
@@lesirterholland5186Amen, exactly 🙏🏼
@@lesirterholland5186If you don't believe in the Holy Spirit you cannot be saved and off you are not saved you are lost and just being used by the devil!!!
@@lesirterholland5186The Holy Spirit personifies Christ. He is Christ's representative but a different Person.
The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, in Christ’s name. He personifies Christ, yet is a distinct personality. We may have the Holy Spirit if we ask for it and make it [a] habit to turn to and trust in God rather than in any finite human agent who may make mistakes. Ms93.1893.8
We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.-Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616.5}
The title of this video presentation is disingenuous. This was not a debate, but rather two men agreeing with each other's point of view. Ivor and Steve, if you are really honest men arrange a real debate or a symposium where One True God proponents are invited to participate.
I agree, but I'd add that the discussion/debate/Q&A should be open to everyone as Trinity vs OTG is a false dichotomy of philosophical theories that reject the simple truth that God is a spirit.
My aoplogy. I did not intend for this to be understood as a debate between me and Steve but as us addressing the debate going on in the church.
There is no debate in the church, just like there is no debate in the OTG movement. SDAism has become a closed system of divisive dogmatic belief and creed rather than a fellowship of the holy spirit.
@powerofthelamb Respectfully, if you really want to address the ongoing debate within the church, a symposium should be arranged as prescribed in the Spirit of Prophecy.
If a brother differs with you on some points of truth, do not stoop to ridicule; do not place him in a false light or misconstrue his words, making sport of them; do not misinterpret his words and wrest them of their true meaning. This is not conscientious argument. Do not present him before others as a heretic, when you have not with him investigated his positions, taking the Scriptures text by text in the spirit of Christ to show him what is truth. You do not yourself really know the evidence he has for his faith, and you cannot clearly define your own position. Take your Bible, and in a kindly spirit weigh every argument that he presents and show him by the Scriptures if he is in error. When you do this without unkind feelings, you will do only that which is your duty and the duty of every minister of Jesus Christ. Letter 21 1888 par 28.
There is no Trinity, Father has always been, Jesus has a beginning, proverbs 8
"The doctrine of the trinity is true when rightly understood [or taught in the true way]."
--Stephen N. Haskell (SDA pioneer), The Bible Training School, Feb. 1906, pg. 156
@@chrischung2365
The narrative got out of hand but it doesn't make Christianity untrue....
G💡D, "did not" come down AND get "tempted",
from a creature "he made",
with everything he ALREADY OWNS?
God doesn't grow in favor, "with God".
God doesn't "anoint" God.
🙄Watch ISAIAH 53 FALL FLAT:
According to Isaiah chapter 53,
YaH Rewards Yeshua, The Suffering-Son-of-Man Servant, With Spoils, wait what?
Does God reward "himself" a great name & spoils?
Make it make sense, we've repackaged God's son to be the maker of heaven and Earth over God are we serious?
John 20:17 Jesus said Iam ascending to🫴My Father" and
👉"Your Father", and to
🫴My God AND
👉your God.
John 17:3
"Now this is eternal life, that they may know
You, the 🫴only true God,
👉and Jesus Christ,
whom You have sent."
Also count 2 Separate Thrones👇
Rev 3:21 KJV Jesus says..
To him that overcomith ,
will I grant to sit with me on
🤴🏻"My Throne"; even as I also overcame,
and set down with
👑"my father" on his throne.
2 Separate Thrones.
@@chrischung2365If that is so please show scripture of the Holy Spirit existed before creation with the Father and the Son
Please explain how all things were made by Jesus Christ if He didn't always exist. John 1 states this, as well as Paul. Jesus is the Creator of all things. He is the God Genesis 1 speaks of. The Father is not the Jehovah of the Old Testament. Jesus is. That is why He said "before Abraham was I AM".
Let me show you the parallels in the Old and New Testament that gives ZERO doubt as to whether or not Jesus is God.
ISAIAH 48:12-13
[12] Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the FIRST, I also am the LAST. [13] Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
REVELATION 1:8
[8] I am ALPHA and OMEGA, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the ALMIGHTY.
JOHN 1:3 KJV
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jesus is Jehovah in the Old Testament. He is the Almighty. Jesus, in Revelation, was requoting what He told Isaiah. Nobody else can say they are the first and last except God Himself. He is the Creator of all things in the universe. That is why John starts off the book speaking about Jesus in a parallel to Genesis 1:1. He is the God who made heaven and Earth. He is the Word made flesh. He can only be the Word of God if He is the one who spoke it. Every word spoken by God in the Old Testament, was spoken by Jesus.
He is only the Lord of the Sabbath because He is the Creator of the Sabbath itself. The Greek word for Lord means "lord, master, guardian, OWNER". You cannot be the owner or master of the Sabbath if you did not make it to begin with.
MICAH 5:2 KJV
[2] But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of OLD, from EVERLASTING.
This is the prophecy about Jesus being born in Bethlehem. It says days are Everlasting, meaning, without beginning or end.
ISAIAH 48:17 KJV
[17] Thus saith the LORD, thy REDEEMER, the HOLY ONE of ISRAEL; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
Who is the Holy One of Israel? Who is the REDEEMER? It is only Jesus who has redeemed us from sin. He is the Holy One of Israel. Jesus Himself is speaking here as LORD which means in Hebrew, Jehovah or Yahweh.
LUKE 4:34 KJV
[34] saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the HOLY ONE of GOD.
Even the demons recognize that Jesus was the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah says in chapter 9 that the child born to save us is the MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER. Paul says in Philipians 2:6 that Jesus was the very nature of God and it was not robbery to be considered God since He was God.
In Hebrews, Paul describes Melchisedec as having neither beginning of days nor end of life, neither having descent or father or mother. He says that He is like the Son of God because of all this. If Jesus is the Son of God, and has neither beginning of days nor father, how can He not be God?
Just because Jesus is called the Son of God, does not mean He was created by the Father. He is also the Son of David. Does this mean He is now less than David? NO! Like Brother Meyers said, the Jesus was not the Son of God until He was born as a baby. He was considered the Son of God then because He had to take Adam's place who was also called the Son of God. Jesus was conceived by God, therefore, His human incarnation makes Him the Son of God, the same way that David's blood runs through His veins, making Him the Son of David.
Before the incarnation, Jesus was not the Son of God. That is only a term that applied to Jesus being our Savior and Messiah through His incarnation. That is why Nebuchadnezzar said the Son of God was in the furnace. Daniel had told Him about the Messiah. Adam and Eve were told that Jesus would be born to save them. Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world, meaning He had planned His death before creating the world. In this sense, and in this sense only, He was called the Son of God before coming down. The sacrifice He made by becoming one of us is the only reason why Jesus is called the Son of God.
Remember how the prophecy for the new temple to be built after the destruction by Babylon stated that the glory of the new would be greater than the glory of the old? Why do you think that is? The old temple had the Ark with the Shekina. The new one did not have an Ark. How was it greater? It is because God Himself with us (Immanuel) walked its halls. There was no need for the Shekina when God was literally there as a person. That is why the veil was rent when Jesus died. He had fulfilled everything that the temple stood for because He was the temple.
To say He is not God is to literally deny the God of the Old Testament because He was the God in the burning bush. He was the God on Mt. Sinai. He was the Shekina glory over the Ark. I don't know what greater proof anyone needs that Jesus is God. It is directly stated by Jesus Himself in the Old and New Testaments with the exact same wording and descriptors to let you know it is the REDEEMER of Israel speaking.
As for Proverbs 8, that is a gross misinterpretation to say that Solomon is talking about Jesus when it is clearly him speaking of Wisdom. He made Wisdom a person to poetically speak of it. Chapters 8 and 9 personify two different things: Wisdom and Folly. They are both shown as women. To say Jesus is a woman is blasphemous. Jesus is never, ever represented by a women. The church is. These two women are not to represent actual human beings. Solomon merely used metaphorical language here to personify two things men can choose. They can get Wisdom or Folly.
Crazy how we will push the "pioneers" until the pioneers disagree with us.
God is one person ♥️♥️
Oh Trinity, the Triune God who are thee and where dwelleth thee? Do you even exist?
Those who entered the sanctuary did not find you. The heavens were opened and thrones were revealed, but you were not seen.
In you, oh Trinity, there is no absolute truth, all things are relatively mysterious. Those who teach about you claim you can not be understood for you are a mystery. You are worshipped by many in different ways, for you are a social justice legend. You nullified God's perpetual law and those who worship you talk of liberty. In you all sides are equal, there is no male nor female
The new age spiritualism is cherished in you and all religions and cultures are embraced as true and relevant. You are the epitomy of Ecumenism and in you there is one rule; "Do as thou wilt". Those who worship you become gods and law unto themselves.
But who are you Trinity and where did you come from?
From everlasting to everlasting none speaks of you. From the beginning to the end none reveals you.
Did the patriarchs and prophets forget to testify about you?
Did he who came in flesh forget his mission to speak plainly about you?
Where were you when God begat a Son? Where were you when the Father sent his Son on earth. Howbeit he taught us all things, about his one personal father as God Almighty. He revealed the mystery of the Kingdom of God and His Spirit made all things plain. Did he mention that he is the second person of the three-in-one God?
Where did the inspired writers record it?
He spoke nothing in secret,
From the beginning he revealed all mystery to His people and declared Him who is the only true God. Did he forget to mention you, Did he not reveal the mystery of the Trinity? Are you not declared as the mystery of Babylon?
Where can I find you, Trinity, and who can declare you but spiritualists? I asked the prophets and they declared the throne revealed in heaven, even the sanctuary above, but you were not there.
Daniel the prophet saw the Ancient of Days sitting on the throne, are you the one referred here Trinity? Or maybe you are the Son of man seen by Daniel, do you change from three to one being? Does God change?
John the Revelator saw what other prophets saw in Heaven, sadly you were not seen. For He saw him who sat on the throne, not three beings. If the three were now one how come he saw at the same time the Son of man, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, like a Lamb that was slain, standing before the Him who sat on the throne.?
Where were you when the Ancient of Days sat down on the throne while the begotten Son stood up at the centre of the throne? Oh Trinity, were you there when the Son of man, the Lamb of God received dominion, and glory, and a kingdom from Him who sat on the throne? Did the Son not receive all things and made equal and to be worshipped like His Father the Almighty God? If so, then where do you fit yourself in this Heavenly Kingdom and as who?
Did Stephen declare the Trinity when the heavens were opened before him?
“Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” Was the God seen here the Triune God without Christ? For the Son was standing besides his Father. Trinity, are you the Father of Christ? Am I wrong to conclude you have given yourself God's position when you are not God the Father but three-in-one God?
Did the apostles who witnessed all things that were declared and revealed about God and his Son speak boldly about these things ? They did teach and encourage others about what they saw and what they heard. Unfortunately, Oh Trinity, they declared, "truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."
Where were you when God and his Son created all things? Should we listen to you or the command: "Fear God and give Glory to him for his hour of judgement has come"? Should we worship you or him who made heaven and earth and the sea and the fountains of waters?
Who are you trinity?
Are you not the mystery of iniquity, the confusion of Babylon?
Are you not Lucifer himself, that old arch deceiver cast down from heaven for strife to be co-equal with the only begotten Son of God, and to exalt yourself to be the eternal one worshipped like God ?
Were you not created by hands of the sons of man? Howbeit the whole world unites in your name to worship you the mystery of Babylon. Are you not an idol made of hands of the stone cutters and ready to be destroyed by a stone cut out without hands?
Will you be able to save them who worship you as if you are the Creator? Are they not sons of disobedience who worship a god who is not the Creator? Where were you when God the Father created all things by his Son Jesus Christ?
How have you managed to deceive them who are ready to perish with you? By mixing truth with error, in subtilty you have corrupted their minds that they have lost sight of the simplicity of Christ. In fatal disobedience they rejected the light and chose another light of their delusion.
Now God will not hold them guiltless; for they knew the true God but chose to worship the creature and imaginations of their minds. Now they destroy the God-given order in the house of the Lord and become like pagans, filling Gods house with false doctrines, with uncleanness, with all creeping things.
Are they not raising crosses in their churches casting a cloth unto your likeness the old witty serpent? Are they not ordaining women in the likeness of pagan priestesses, of Ashtoreth, Artemis and all forms of the Queen of Heaven?
Oh Trinity, are you not the central doctrine of the Babylonians? Are you not the god of sun worshippers, the very god of Easter and Sunday?
The whole ancient world is filled with blood of saints who refused to worship you, the unholy "most holy" Trinity. Three tribes of Rome were destroyed because of you Trinity, and the little horn replaced them in the name of triple power of trinity, the Vicar of Christ.
Do we not hear rumblings of Nicaean creed returning in our day? Is it not a call for unity under the trinity? Are they not consolidating power to mercilessly punish them who speak ill against their order? Will history not repeat itself?
Yet even so, should commandment-keeping remnant worship the trinity in disobedience to their one true God? Are they not uniting under trinity in disobedience to the command, "Come out of her my people"?
Are they not keeping their eyes on Sunday Law and forgetting that God of the Sabbath is the Creator? Like the Jews who rejected Christ and claimed to be keeping the law of God, today they claim to have accepted Christ while rejecting the law.
Have they not rejected their one true God and declared their allegiance to the Kings of this world and the god of this world? Will God remain silent with this great apostasy?
The Trinity and its connection to Sunday and Easter, echoes the persecutions that followed creeds, decrees and edicts starting from AD 321 and AD 325 by Roman Emperor Constantine. It is indeed part of the mystery religion of Babylon, the sun worship which is the worst apostasy and idolatry that kindles God's wrath. History repeats itself.
"You are therefore called to conform your lives more and more to the person and message of Jesus Christ. And never forget that the precise goal of all apostolic service is to lead all people to communion with the Most Holy Trinity." Pope John Paul II, 12 Sept 1987.
"Consequently, 'when we contemplate with wonder the universe in all its grandeur and beauty, we must praise the whole Trinity'....Everything is interconnected, and this invites us to develop a spirituality of that global solidarity which flows from the mystery of the Trinity. viii. queen of all Creation 241. Mary, the Mother who cared for Jesus, now cares with maternal affection and pain for this wounded world. Just as her pierced heart mourned the death of Jesus, so now she grieves for the sufferings of the crucified poor and for the creatures of this world laid waste by human power. Completely transfigured, she now lives with Jesus, and all creatures sing of her fairness. She is the Woman, “clothed in the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (Rev 12:1). Carried up into heaven, she is the Mother and Queen of all creation. In her glorif ied body, together with the Risen Christ, part of creation has reached the fullness of its beauty." Pope Francis, 24 May, 2015.
A standing ovation right here....WOW!! WOW!!
Copy and paste theology. Too long. Spam.
@@Patel-ce4vc look for the primary source where it was copied from. It's simple. Prove all things. Don't settle for spam.
This is so true! May God bless you🙏🏼❤️
@@susaneverblest5354it was great!!
Why don't you read John 1:1
Do we really need to go to the Catholic Church to understand the godhead or Trinity
That is a strawman and disingenuous statement.
Thier veiw of the trinity is not the same as our view.
@@larrybedouin2921 yet it is
Amen our church preach Catholicism now 😭Jesus is not a literal son and God is not the God of the Bible and the holy spiirt is another being !😭
Wonderful conversation. I agree the word Trinity should not be used by SDA's because it is not Biblical. Godhead is what should be used as stated in the Bible. Anything that is generated by the Catholic church that is not biblical should be shunned!! Many are called, few are chosen. Study, study, study to show thyself approved!
@@user-sr9cc2rb9c I don't think that's the position advocated. We have words like medical missionary, health reform, investigative judgement, historicism, etc which are not in the Bible. We can't take the position that these words should not be used because they are extra-biblical
Godhead means divine nature look it up, it does not consist of three called the trinity. John 3:16 clearly reveal how many consist of God spoken by Jesus.
Of course. This doesn't negate the fact that are three in the Godhead.
@@powerofthelamb Father and Son only has divine nature the Holy Spirit has a separate divine individual does not exist. How worship must match Heaven there’s not a single verse in the Bible especially in Revelation of the Angels worshipping a Triune God it’s only the one who sits on the throne and the lamb and no one else.
@@powerofthelambwhat does FB #2 say? Pull out a copy and read, pondering each word carefully, and then #3, and #4, and 14 too. This is a trinitarian church, regardless of all their discussions on the godhead. It is deceptive when they say that the Godhead is under attack. They aren't being honest, that it is the F Belief #2 and on, that are the issue.
@@DonjohnsonBG So there is no third person of the Godhead?
@@powerofthelamb There is a third person but not a literal third person like many believe, we as Adventist like to use the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy so here you go; the Disciples understood who the Comforter/ Holy Ghost was (identity of the Spirit) they didn’t understand how it will be manifested unto them and not unto the world(nature of the Spirit,which is a mystery) notice:John 14:20-23 KJV
“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. [21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I WILL LOVE HIM, AND MANIFEST MYSELF TO HIM. [22] Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, LORD, HOW IS IT THAT THOU(You) WILT MANIFEST THYSELF(YOURSELF) UNTO US, AND NOT UNTO THE WORLD? [23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and MY FATHER will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him.” Father and Son because the Father Spirit dwells in Christ.(John 14:10) When Christ said He will pray to the Father for the Comforter/ Holy Ghost John 17 is that prayer; he was praying for his humanity to be glorified like it was before the world was(John 17:5) that he may dwell in his Disciples by his Spirit like the Father dwelt in him by his Spirit notice: John 17:20-23 KJV “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; [21] That they all may be one; as thou(you), Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they(disciples) also may be one in us(Father and Son): that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. [22] And the glory which thou(you) gavest me I have given them(disciples); that they may be one, even as we are one: [23] I in them, and thou(you)in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou (you)hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou(you) hast loved me.” Christ often spoke in the third person so the “HE” in reference to the Comforter/ Spirit of Truth was referring to himself that’s why Judas Iscariot responded that way. Son of Man, Is it not Christ? Yet he always said HE. Christ is the only one that carry many names and Comforter/Holy Ghost is one of them. Spirit of Prophecy Sister White says in Desire of Ages same book same chapter in reference to the Comforter said; “The disciples still failed to understand Christ's words in their SPIRITUAL SENSE, and again He explained His meaning. By the Spirit, He said, HE would Manifest Himself to them. “The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things.” DA p. 670.1 The Spirit is Christ notice very carefully: “Sin could be RESISTED AND OVERCOME only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead” Only means One Person or Individual; a few sentences later she said this “Christ has given HIS SPIRIT as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil” How can this not be Christ Spirit? This is how I know the Spirit is Christ, Sister White says in DA page 674.2 “The Saviour had been explaining to His disciples His mission to the world, and the SPIRITUAL RELATION to Him which they were to sustain. Now He illustrates the lesson” “But Jesus says, I am the real Vine. Think not that through a connection with Israel you may become partakers of the life of God, and inheritors of His promise. Through Me ALONE is SPIRITUAL LIFE received” DA p.675.1 “The branch becomes a part of the living vine. The communication of life, strength, and fruitfulness from the root to the branches is unobstructed and constant. Separated from the vine, the branch cannot live. No more, said Jesus, can you live apart from Me. The life you have received from Me can be preserved only by continual communion. Without Me you cannot OVERCOME one SIN, or RESIST one TEMPTATION. DA p. 676.1 “Abide in Me, and I in you.” Abiding in Christ means a constant receiving of HIS SPIRIT, a life of unreserved surrender to His service.” Overcome and Resist is the same two words she said for the third person of the Godhead so how can it be someone else who represents him? Lastly she says the Holy Spirit is Christ Omnipresence Spirit which when the Father glorified his humanity he received notice: "Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is HIMSELF, divested of the personality of humanity, and independent thereof. He would represent HIMSELF as present in all places by HIS HOLY SPIRIT, as the OMNIPRESENT." - (E.G. White, Lt119, February 18, 1895) “That Christ should MANIFEST HIMSELF to them, and yet be invisible to the world, was a mystery to the disciples. They could not understand the words of Christ in their SPIRITUAL SENSE. THEY WERE THINKING OF THE 'OUTWARD VISIBLE MANIFESTATION. They could not take in the fact that they could have the PRESENCE OF CHRIST WITH THEM, and YET HE BE UNSEEN BY THE WORLD. They did not understand the meaning of a 'SPIRITUAL MANIFESTATION. THE SOUTHERN WORK, SEPT.13, 1898 The Spirit of Antichrist in these last days is to deny the Holy Spirit is Christ and believe it’s Someone else which Paul clearly says: 2 Corinthians 3:17 KJV
“Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” Who is the Lord who is that Spirit? Paul says in the next chapter 2 Corinthians 4:5 KJV
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus THE LORD; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.”
The darkness comprehended it not. What did John write?
John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
The bible is clear about the identity of God. There is only 1 God.(Deuteronomy 6:4) and that God beget a Son.(Hebrews 1:5).
Strange considering that's not what Deuteronomy 6:4 says.
It says there is only ONE LORD.
Who is the Lord?
John 20:28- And Thomas answered and said unto Him (Jesus), My Lord and my God.
“MC Wilcox on "one God": "Deut. 6:4 is simply an expression of the unity of the Godhead : "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." Many times, when mention is made of God, it simply implies the Godhead. Of course, there is absolute unity in that, just as truly as though there were but one Person; and therefore it is spoken of as one."
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: Deuteronomy 6:4
@7th-Day the word translated as LORD in Deuteronomy is "Yehovah" which is not the name of Yeshua. The word translated as Lord in John is "kurios" meaning ruler,controller,authority which is not subject to a Devine being only,even humans can carry that title.Remember also that the word God "theos" meaning a deity especially of divinity,is a title.Yeshua can carry that title as he is divine because he is begotten by the Father. Yeshua is not the Supreme deity of the universe as he has a God too and is subject to a God too. 1 Corinthians 15:28 and Hebrews 1:8 and 9. That God is Yahweh the Supreme deity of the universe.
@chrischung2365 the expression godhead does mean divinity and the 3 times it appears in the new testament it never carries numerical value,go check your concordance as to the meaning of that word
@@kanyohoho7449He is NOT the Supreme Deity?
So when Philippians 2:5-6 says He was equal with God in His Preincarnate state, Scripture is lying?
I just have 2 questions no one ever answers. 1. Is Jesus the Son of the Holy Ghost?
"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."
And How many are sitting on the throne in heaven according to the bible?
Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins *but God* only?
{Mark 2:7}
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, *God with us*
{Matthew 1:23}
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: *God* was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
{1 Timothy 3:16}
“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.”
{John 10:11}
...
“I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”
{John 10:14}
The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want...
{Psalm 23:1a}
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no Saviour.
{Isaiah 43:11}
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
{John 20:28}
Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
{Isaiah 48:12}
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; "I am the first and the last:
I am he that liveth, *and was dead* and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”
{Revelation 1:18}
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
{Philippians 2:5-6}
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
{Colossians 1:16-19}
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, *from everlasting*
{Micah 5:2}
*@larrybedouin2921:* - *Here’s a Trinitarian conundrum:.* - *Jesus prayed to the Father [John 17:1],* - *but His mother Mary was pregnant with Him as a result of the Holy Spirit:* “She was found with child of the Holy Spirit” [Matthew 1:18]. *That would make the Holy Spirit the “father” of Jesus.*
*This confusion is quite easily avoidable* - *by realizing that the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is not a person *but the divine power and manifestation by which the Father gave human life to Jesus in the womb of Mary.*
It is true. We are told what the Holy Spirit does, not who the Holy Spirit is. And we should accept what the bible does say and neither add to it or take away from it, and pray for the Holy Spirit which leads to all truth, and represents Jesus on earth etc. But the question I have also is why did Jesus say this, as quoted in John 16?
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."
Can they not be in the same place? What does this mean? Why is it expedient for Jesus to go back to heaven before the Holy Spirit could come?
The Holy Ghost is Jehovah
Compare
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (Jehovah): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD ( Jehovah ): for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
With
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Conclusion. The Holy Ghost is Jehovah
The Holy Ghost is Jehovah's spirit.
@@canadiancontrarian3668The Holy Ghost is Jehovah Himself.
Compare
Exo 17:2 Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD (Jehovah)?
With
Heb 3:7 Wherefore as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Conclusion: The Holy Ghost is Jehovah Himself.
@@Patel-ce4vc Yes...God speaking by his own Spirit.
@@canadiancontrarian3668It does not say that the Father is speaking through the Holy Ghost. That's only your interpretation.
The Holy Ghost is God.
Compare
Psa 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
Psa 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Psa 95:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
Psa 95:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.
With
Heb 3:7 Wherefore as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Conclusion. The Holy Ghost Himself is speaking therefore The Holy Ghost is God.
I think it would have been helpful to define your position from the Bible, so it is clear what position in the bible is being uplifted. This has been an entire study refuting a position that wasn't defined either.
That is it exactly. If you can only defend your position by trying to attack or discredit another's instead of proving your own it's because you can't. And you need to go back and pray and study until you have a positive way to teach with the word of God. It's not about You're wrong I'm right. It's about what does God say? Come let us reason together.
@@Cindy-vv2ex Amen!
ONE AFTER ANOTHER ASKED HIM THE QUESTION, “ART THOU THE SON OF GOD?” TO ALL CAME THE ANSWER AS TO CAIAPHAS, “I AM.” (MATTHEW 27:40-43; MARK 14:61-64; LUKE 22:66-71; JOHN 19:7) IN THE TRUTH OF HIS WORDS, JESUS PROCLAIMED HIMSELF AS THE SON OF GOD.
The Jewish rulers said of Christ, “We have a law, and by our law He ought to die” [John 19:7]. Christ, who made the laws governing the Temple service, might have said to Caiaphas as he rent his robe, “You have transgressed the law of the God of heaven.” {12MR 401.3}
Every word of Christ’s reply was an arrow aimed by no uncertain hand. The judges rose up and confronted Christ, and with angry vehemence one after another asked Him the question, “Art Thou the Son of God?” To all came the answer as to Caiaphas, “I AM.” (Matthew 27:40-43; Mark 14:61-64; Luke 22:66-71; John 19:7) Oh, will not the dignity revealed in that pale face bring discernment to these men? Will not His bearing impress them with the truth of His words? On this occasion impressions were made that were never effaced. The actors in the scene went from place to place, hoping to find relief, but never did they gain the peace and quietude they sought. {12MR 401.4}
The rulers did not yield to the conviction, but decided the matter as Satan hoped they would. They condemned Christ as a blasphemer. But Christ was not cowed or intimidated by their anger. With patience and without retaliation, He bore dishonor and shameful abuse. He looked forward to the time when their positions would be reversed, when He would sit on the right hand of God, clothed with power, when all-Pilate, Caiaphas, and those who mocked and derided Him-would stand before Him. When He comes in the clouds of heaven, the whole world will be cited before Him. Those who pierced Him will look upon Him. The sentence will be passed on those who have not received Him. {12MR 402.1}
This is one of the times when Christ publicly confessed His claim to be the Messiah, the One for whom the Jews had long looked. Weighted with such great results, it was to Christ one of the most wonderful moments of His life. He realized that all disguise must be swept away. The declaration that He was one with God must be openly made. His judges looked upon Him as only a man, and they thought Him guilty of blasphemous presumption. But He proclaimed Himself as the Son of God. He fully asserted His divine character before the dignitaries who had arraigned Him before their earthly tribunal. His words, spoken calmly, yet with conscious power, showed that He claimed for Himself the prerogatives of the Son of God. {12MR 402.2}
At this time, none of the disciples dared open their lips to acknowledge Christ as the Messiah so long expected. When asked if he was one of the disciples, Peter denied, and when again charged with being Christ’s follower, he denied with cursing and swearing. On one occasion Jesus asked His disciples, “Whom say ye that I am?” The light of the Saviour’s glory flooded Peter’s soul, and with inspired earnestness, he broke out into no prosaic acknowledgment, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Christ commended him, saying, “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven” [Matthew 16:15-17]. Is this the same Peter that now denies his Lord with cursing? {12MR 403.1}
CHRIST SHOULD ANNOUNCE HIMSELF AS THE SON OF GOD.
The Jews, because their understanding was darkened by selfish prejudice, could not harmonize the strange power and authority of Christ’s convicting words, with his humble life and appearance. They did not appreciate the fact that real greatness can afford to go without display. This man’s poverty and humility seemed wholly inconsistent with his claims to the great honor and power of the Messiah. That he should announce himself as the Son of God, they deemed intolerable blasphemy. They questioned, if he were the Messiah, why was he so unpretending? What would become of their nation if he were satisfied to be without the force of arms? When and how would the glory and power, so long anticipated, bring the nations as subjects to the city of the Jews? Had not the priests taught that they were to bear rule over all the earth? and could it be possible that the great religious teachers were in error? The Lord had answered their query through Isaiah: “O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.” {RH February 7, 1888, par. 11} {RH July 6, 1911, par. 11}
“Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore
it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father,
and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself
divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would
represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent.”
Manuscript Releases (1993). (Vol. 14, p. 23). (MR NO. 1084. Feb. 19, 1895)
In fact lets consider the ",comforter" who is this comforter that the father sent after Jesus left? Well of course its claimed that a third person was sent... But where do we turn to find comfort? Would we say "the word"? Who is the word? Would we say we just pray to a third person called the holy spirit? I say its babylonian confusion creeping in..
I like what 2 Corinthians 3:17 says:
"Now the Lord is THAT Spirit".
🙏🙏🙏
@@sidneyachia1909 Amen... 1 spirit..
So there is no third person?
@@powerofthelamb let us consider who the spirit belongs to...GENESIS 6:3
KJ21
And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for he also is flesh; yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years
@@powerofthelamb let's consider mans creation in God's image... How many? Male and female 2 persons...
Its very ironic that there is an echo when contextually pastor Ivor was echoing the views of Steve Wolhberg.
Steve came up with these views?
@@powerofthelamb Good morning Pastor, I'm aware these views are shared widely throughout the SDA church. The intention was to highlight that the session was called a The Godhead Debate so I was expecting a talk with at least one person to represent each view in a given amount of time. I kno you both covered opposing views and respect your vast knowledge of the Bible but it seemed biased as you both share the same views and it didn't seem like a debate but more of a review or a discussion. As someone who doesn't believe in the Trinity it is not my intention to blaspheme and demote Christ but to follow scripture how it reads and to have the correct inspired understanding. I don't claim to kno all and am still a student and someone in need of salvation and Christ blaspheming Christ is not my intention.
The Trinity views in essence worship 3 Gods which is blasphemy (Deut 6:4, Isaiah 45:6 and Isaiah 45:21) or Worships 1 God composed of 3 distinctive beings, what happened when Jesus died on the cross then? Did the Triune God cease to be God?
It would be good if you could invite someone on to your platform that has an opposing view and conduct a Trinity Vs Non Trinity debate.
Thanks again for responding
@@christopherbunbury2156 I realize that calling this the Godhead debate actually led some people to believe that Steve and Zo would be debating each other. My title was meant to address the debate. So I understand how this could have been misunderstood.
Maybe try to have one. Not really like a debate by comparing both positions from the Scriptures.
"If a brother differs with you on some points of truth, do not stoop to ridicule; do not place him in a false light or misconstrue his words, making sport of them; do not misinterpret his words and wrest them of their true meaning. This is not conscientious argument. Do not present him before others as a heretic, when you have not with him investigated his positions, taking the Scriptures text by text in the spirit of Christ to show him what is truth. You do not yourself really know the evidence he has for his faith, and you cannot clearly define your own position. Take your Bible, and in a kindly spirit weigh every argument that he presents and show him by the Scriptures if he is in error. When you do this without unkind feelings, you will do only that which is your duty and the duty of every minister of Jesus Christ." (Lt21-1888)
It is not Godhead debate. Let's call it what it is. It's Trinity Debate. Steve is doing exactly what apostate men like Kellogg, Froom and Desmond Ford did to this church. Now it is time for true watchmen to cry louder. This is spiritualism of highest order. Godhead is not synonymous with Trinity
Nothing is new under the sun, our history repeats.
The Godhead is the Trinity.
Anti-trinitarians are a spirit of division in the body of Christ.
And the LORD said, *My Spirit shall not always strive with man* for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
{Genesis 6:3}
They angered him also at the waters of strife, so that it went ill with Moses for their sakes:
*Because they provoked his Spirit* so that he spake unadvisedly with his lips.
{Psalm 106:33}
In all their affliction he was afflicted, and *the angel of his presence* saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
But they rebelled, *and vexed his holy Spirit* therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
{Isaiah 63:9-10} (Ps 78:40-41)
*The Spirit of God hath made me* and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
{Job 33:4}
Cast me [David] not away *from thy presence* and take not *thy holy Spirit* from me.
{Psalm 51:11}
(The holy Spirit is omnipresent)
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
{Psalm 139:7-10}
Then was *Jesus led up of the Spirit* into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
{Matthew 4:1}
“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: *but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him* neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”
{Matthew 12:32} (Mark 3:28-29)
“And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you *another* [of the same kind] Comforter that he may abide with you for ever;
Even *the Spirit of truth* whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; *for he dwelleth with you* and shall be in you.”
{John 14:16-17}
"But the Comforter, which is *the Holy Ghost* whom the Father will send in my name, *he shall teach you* all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever *I have said* unto you.”
{John 14:26}
“But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, *he shall testify* of me:”
{John 15:26-27}
“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, *the Comforter* will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
And when *he* is come, *he* will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:”
{John 16:7-8}
(This is why grieving the holy Spirit cannot be forgiven if we do not allow him to convict us of our unrighteousness.)
(The holy Spirit is omniscient)
“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, *he will guide you into all truth* for *he shall not speak of himself* but whatsoever *he shall hear* that *shall he speak* and *he will shew you* things to come.”
{John 16:13}
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, *as the Spirit gave them utterance*
{Acts 2:4} (read verses 1-3 also for context)
(The holy Spirit is omnipotent)
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath satan filled thine heart *to lie to the Holy Ghost* and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? *thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God*
And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
{Acts 5:3-5}
[Steven] Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, *ye do always resist the Holy Ghost* as your fathers did, so do ye.
{Acts 7:51}
Then *the Spirit said unto Philip* Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
{Acts 8:29}
While Peter thought on the vision, *the Spirit said unto him* Behold, three men seek thee.
Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: *for I have sent them*
{Acts 10:19-20}
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, *the Holy Ghost said* Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
{Acts 13:2}
For *it seemed good to the Holy Ghost* and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
{Acts 15:28}
Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, *and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia*
After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: *but the Spirit suffered them not*
{Acts 16:7-8}
*The Spirit itself* beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
{Romans 8:16}
Likewise *the Spirit* also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but *the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us* with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints *according to the will of God*
{Romans 8:26-27}
Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, *and for the love of the Spirit* that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;
{Romans 15:30}
And *grieve not the holy Spirit of God whereby ye are sealed* unto the day of redemption.
{Ephesians 4:30}
But God hath revealed them unto us *by his Spirit* for *the Spirit searcheth all things* yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, *but the Spirit of God*
{1 Corinthians 2:10-11}
But all these worketh that *one and the selfsame Spirit* dividing to every man severally *as he will*
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For *by one Spirit* are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into *one Spirit*
{1 Corinthians 12:11-13}
Now *the Spirit speaketh expressly* that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
{1 Timothy 4:1}
Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
{Hebrews 3:7-9}
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through *the eternal Spirit* offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
{Hebrews 9:14}
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
{Hebrews 10:29}
“He that hath an ear, let him hear what *the Spirit* saith unto the churches.”
{Revelation 2:7; 2:11; 2:17; 2:29; 3:6; 3:13; 3:22}
And *the Spirit* and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
{Revelation 22:17}
@@Patel-ce4vc The godhead means divinity it is not synonym for the trinity or three etc
@Mifsud-hj8ok"
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus"
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
- For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily"
He is not part of a Godhead, aka Trinity, the Godhead dwelleth within him. There is a difference.
Strong’s Definitions
θεότης theótēs, theh-ot'-ace; from G2316; divinity (abstractly):-godhead.
KJV Translation Count - Total: 1x
The KJV translates Strong's G2320 in the following manner: Godhead (1x).
Genesis 1:27 KJV - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 2:21-23 KJV - And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Peace brother 🙏
Satan can breathe His Spirit upon Christains who are left in the Holy place. Does that mean there are two of Him? Maybe this subject is a salvation issue, and it keeps us still in the Holy place, we need to get into the Most Holy to be saved. There Jesus will fill us with His Spirit.
Right. It is blasphemy to call the Holy Spirit the spirit of Satan. Those who go this far run the risk of the unpardonable sin. Be sure that what you teach is actually biblical.
He’s referring to Ellen White Vision:
“And I saw a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, and angels were all around it as it came where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the Holiest where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, standing before the Father, a great High Priest. On the hem of his garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. *And I saw those who rose up with Jesus send up their faith to him in the Holiest, and pray-my Father give us thy Spirit. Then Jesus would breathe upon them the Holy Ghost. In the breath was light, power, and much love, joy and peace* . Then I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne and pray, *Father give us thy Spirit; then Satan would breathe upon them an unholy influence; in it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy and peace. Satan's object was to keep them deceived, and to draw back and deceive God's children.* ” ExV 43.1
@@pilgrimsprogress6797 right. They believed the spirit had no personality and was only a force. No love, joy, or peace, attributes that point to personality.
That’s the characteristics of Christ character which is love, joy and peace. And Satan’s is no love, no joy, and no peace. This is what bradthomas was saying, if you make the Spirit of God a seperate being from Him, that would mean the spirit of Satan is a seperate being from Satan.
@@pilgrimsprogress6797 again. No third person. Dangerous theology. Attributing the spirit to Satan. Dangerous business.
Audio echos because Steve is not using headphones to listen to your feed. It creates an audio loop into his mic.
"Those who come in contact with Sabbath-keepers should be the better for their association; for if they live out the commandments of God, they are representatives of the Father and the Son." (RH
January 15, 1895, par. 1)
Sounds like they’re representatives of a Heavenly Duo instead of the full Heavenly Trio.
“ *As a personal being, God has revealed Himself in His Son. The outshining of the Father's glory, “and the express image of His person* ,” Jesus, as a personal Saviour, came to the world. As a personal Saviour He ascended on high. As a personal Saviour He intercedes in the heavenly courts. Before the throne of God in our behalf ministers “One like unto the Son of man.” Hebrews 1:3; Revelation 1:13. MH 418.4
“Nature is not God nor ever was God. God is in nature; the voice of nature testifies of God; but nature is not God. It but bears a testimony of God’s power, as His created works. *There is a personal God, the Father; there is a personal Christ, the Son* . “God, who at sundry times and in diverse manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.” [Hebrews 1:1-3.] *Here the Son of God is referred to, “who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power* .” John declares, “The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory (glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full or grace and truth.” [John 1:14.]
{13LtMs, Ms 86, 1898, par. 11}
So, sounds like you haven’t looked back in our history what our beliefs were concerning who is God. In Fact, we believed there was one absolute God (with body and parts) which is the Father, and not that there’s 3 persons each called “God” which makes no distinction in the one God, thus the Trinity destroys the personality of God and of Christ. Denying that the God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is denying our past teaching.
“The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.” (2 Corinthians 11:31)
“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and *denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ* .” (Jude 1:4)
Thank you for that clarity, but who shall understand? Steve Wohlberg has chosen to be narrow and dogmatic. The purpose of Bible study in the SDA Church is to come back to the set beliefs of the church and not to challenge them if they don't align with scripture. False teachings have crept in through deception and the watchmen are blind.
This is what is so frustrating is that Adventist don’t even know what Catholics believe about the Godhead. I looked up the quote you stated from catholic answers. It’s clearly there saying that he actively and eternally generates the son is disgusting and as Adventist we do not believe that nonsense. But yet because the Catholic Church mentions three persons we are labeled as apostate! Wake up and study. The Bible is clear and so is SOP.
Satan will do everything he can to corrupt truth to the point we throw the baby out with the bath water.
Pastor Steve please study harder , if God showed me God you show you this truth . Jeuss is coming and pastos are teaching error and heresy that is not in the Bible 😢
It’s a pretty proud statement to claim that God showed you the truth but isn’t shown Steve the truth. The spirit of Korah is running rampant.
@@powerofthelambgod can show you too . We only have to take the trinity c
Glasses off then we see😊
@@lucianacleaningservices2229 I guess I need to buy me a bible and start studying! :)
John 8:24 I (Jesus speaking) said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Please note that “he” is not in the original Greek and is italicized to indicate that it was supplied by the translators.
Therefore, what Jesus really said here was “I AM,” therefore making it another declaration of his Godhood that he is a divine, eternal, pre-existent, infinite, perfect Being. Christ is Israel’s God. See Exodus 3:14 and under John 8:58).
Thus the correct translation of Jesus' words.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.
Amen
A Part Of Himself
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1 John 4:10.
"The Eternal Father, the unchangeable one, gave his only begotten Son, tore from his bosom Him who was made in the express image of his person. and sent him down to earth to reveal how greatly he loved mankind."
RH July 9, 1895, par. 13
"A complete offering has been made;for "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son," - not a son by creation as were the angels, nor a son by adoption, as is the forgiven sinner, but a Son begotten in the express image of the Father's person, and in all the brightness of his majesty and glory, one equal with God in authority, dignity, and divine perfection."
ST May 30, 1895, par. 3
God's love for the world was not manifest because He sent His Son, but because He loved the world He sent His Son into the world that divinity clothed with humanity might touch humanity, while divinity lays hold of divinity. Though sin had produced a gulf between man and his God, a divine benevolence provided a plan to bridge that gulf. And what material did He use? A part of Himself. The brightness of the Father's glory came to a world all seared and marred with the curse, and in His own divine character, in His own divine body, bridged the gulf.... The windows of heaven were opened and the showers of heavenly grace in healing streams came to our benighted world....
Had God given us less we could not have been saved. But He gave to our world so abundantly that it could not be said that He could love us more. Then how foolish is the position taken that there is to be a second probation after the first is exhausted. God has exhausted His benevolence ... in pouring out all heaven to man in one great gift. Only in comprehending the value of this offering can we comprehend infinity. O the breadth and height and depth of the love of God! Who of finite beings can comprehend it? ...
God claims the whole of the affections of man, the whole heart, the whole soul, the whole mind, the whole strength. He lays claim to all that there is of man, because He has poured out the whole treasure of heaven by giving us His all at once, reserving nothing greater that heaven can do....
When I commence writing on this subject, I go on and on, and try to get beyond the outer edge, but I fail. When we shall reach the mansions above, Jesus will Himself lead the white-robed ones, made white in the blood of the Lamb, to the Father. “Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.” Revelation 7:15.11
Letter 36a, 1890.
From Our High Calling - Page 12
Daniel 7:9 KJV - I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Daniel 7:13-14 KJV - I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
The reason why the churches are weak and sickly and ready to die, is that the enemy has brought influences of a discouraging nature to bear upon trembling souls. He has sought to shut Jesus from their view as the Comforter, as one who reproves, who warns, who admonishes them, saying, "This is the way, walk ye in it." Christ has all power in heaven and in earth, and he can strengthen the wavering, and set right the erring. He can inspire with confidence, with hope in God; and confidence in God always results in creating confidence in one another. RH August 26, 1890, par. 10
Romans 8:9-10 KJV - But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Romans 8:26 KJV - Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Romans 8:34 KJV - Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
John 14:18 KJV - I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 KJV - Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Peace brother, John
This IS the present truth for many non trinitarians. However, note the moderation of James White:
James White(1876): "The principal difference between the two bodies is the immortality question. The S. D. Adventists hold the divinity of Christ so nearly with the trinitarian, that we apprehend no trial here. . . . "
Seventh-day Adventists and Seventh Day Baptists cannot afford a controversy on doctrines which neither regard as tests of Christian character." (Review and Herald, October 12, 1876, p. 116, col. 2.)
So plain! Praise God!
Amen and Amen again brother John!🙏🏼
And the LORD said, *My Spirit shall not always strive with man* for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
{Genesis 6:3}
They angered him also at the waters of strife, so that it went ill with Moses for their sakes:
*Because they provoked his Spirit* so that he spake unadvisedly with his lips.
{Psalm 106:33}
In all their affliction he was afflicted, and *the angel of his presence* saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
But they rebelled, *and vexed his holy Spirit* therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
{Isaiah 63:9-10} (Ps 78:40-41)
*The Spirit of God hath made me* and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
{Job 33:4}
Cast me [David] not away *from thy presence* and take not *thy holy Spirit* from me.
{Psalm 51:11}
(The holy Spirit is omnipresent)
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
{Psalm 139:7-10}
Then was *Jesus led up of the Spirit* into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
{Matthew 4:1}
“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: *but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him* neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”
{Matthew 12:32} (Mark 3:28-29)
“And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you *another* [of the same kind] Comforter that he may abide with you for ever;
Even *the Spirit of truth* whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; *for he dwelleth with you* and shall be in you.”
{John 14:16-17}
"But the Comforter, which is *the Holy Ghost* whom the Father will send in my name, *he shall teach you* all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever *I have said* unto you.”
{John 14:26}
“But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, *he shall testify* of me:”
{John 15:26-27}
“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, *the Comforter* will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
And when *he* is come, *he* will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:”
{John 16:7-8}
(This is why grieving the holy Spirit cannot be forgiven if we do not allow him to convict us of our unrighteousness.)
(The holy Spirit is omniscient)
“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, *he will guide you into all truth* for *he shall not speak of himself* but whatsoever *he shall hear* that *shall he speak* and *he will shew you* things to come.”
{John 16:13}
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, *as the Spirit gave them utterance*
{Acts 2:4} (read verses 1-3 also for context)
(The holy Spirit is omnipotent)
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath satan filled thine heart *to lie to the Holy Ghost* and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? *thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God*
And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
{Acts 5:3-5}
[Steven] Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, *ye do always resist the Holy Ghost* as your fathers did, so do ye.
{Acts 7:51}
Then *the Spirit said unto Philip* Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
{Acts 8:29}
While Peter thought on the vision, *the Spirit said unto him* Behold, three men seek thee.
Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: *for I have sent them*
{Acts 10:19-20}
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, *the Holy Ghost said* Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
{Acts 13:2}
For *it seemed good to the Holy Ghost* and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
{Acts 15:28}
Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, *and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia*
After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: *but the Spirit suffered them not*
{Acts 16:7-8}
*The Spirit itself* beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
{Romans 8:16}
Likewise *the Spirit* also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but *the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us* with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints *according to the will of God*
{Romans 8:26-27}
Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, *and for the love of the Spirit* that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;
{Romans 15:30}
And *grieve not the holy Spirit of God whereby ye are sealed* unto the day of redemption.
{Ephesians 4:30}
But God hath revealed them unto us *by his Spirit* for *the Spirit searcheth all things* yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, *but the Spirit of God*
{1 Corinthians 2:10-11}
But all these worketh that *one and the selfsame Spirit* dividing to every man severally *as he will*
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For *by one Spirit* are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into *one Spirit*
{1 Corinthians 12:11-13}
Now *the Spirit speaketh expressly* that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
{1 Timothy 4:1}
Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
{Hebrews 3:7-9}
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through *the eternal Spirit* offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
{Hebrews 9:14}
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
{Hebrews 10:29}
“He that hath an ear, let him hear what *the Spirit* saith unto the churches.”
{Revelation 2:7; 2:11; 2:17; 2:29; 3:6; 3:13; 3:22}
And *the Spirit* and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
{Revelation 22:17}
Isaiah 6:3 "And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.”
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
“Did you catch that? That’s one “holy” for each person of the Godhead!“
You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling. 7MR 267.2
Can we have more volume please?
We need to look at the creation of man to understand the God head... Man was made in God's image.. male and female..2.. Adam was first then Adam "begot" Eve.. both the same age but one was before the other.. the father begot a real son in eternity past but the father was before the son... We have to understand the the son is Devine because his father is Devine... The Trinity is more important to the beast than Sunday... Sunday is their day because of the God they worship is this pagan triune god..
Thank you John. Yes, the sun god, worshiped on Sunday. 👍🏼
@@BgSkyGrl hey.. do you think that these guys are somehow blinded by this trinitarian thing...? The Bible to me seems pretty clear that it is Father and Son, the son having the spirit of the Father... I know these aren't the only Adventists on the trinitarian side but I'm seeing a lot of Adventists believe in the Father and Son.. it seems to be a stunning block . Jesus said walk while ye have the light less darkness come up on you and ye stumble... That he said to disciples so this stoping and keeping beast doctrine seems pretty bad .
That probably doesn't sound coherent but trying to help . Lol
Froom changed the writings to trinitarian
John 3:16 says the father gave his son, that was a son he already had not one born a man
I think most of us understand in John 1:1 were phrase "the Word" is used it's speaking of Jesus. So just replace the words "the Word" with the name Jesus. Then verse one would read "1 In the beginning was “Jesus”, and “Jesus” was with God, and “Jesus” was God." Verse 14 would read "14 And "Jesus" became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
It is thru Christ alone! that we understand who God is(identity) not his nature Sister White says the nature of God is a mystery.
Thanks for making these videos, the devil is out there telling so many lies to confuse others because they themselves are confused. & even among us who we think or thought was our own are workibg against God.
You are saying the Whites, and the founders of this church, were liars? Have you really studied the underhanded way the trinity doctrine was brought into the church? You are calling your fellow SDA members liars? Those who hold to the Fundemental principles that grew this protestant church? A protestant church that now belongs to the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, a catholic council working on Christian ecumenical Unity. The first move was to adopt the trinity doctrine so as to join the World Council of Churches, who also have a trinity requirement. The SDA church proudly joined the world, with NO biblical thus saith the Lord, SDA (the people of the Bible) doctrine without biblical support. The other doctrinal change that has to go hand-in-hand is the literal Sonship of Jesus. The church stand is that is just a metaphor.
Denying the Son of God.
The trinity doesn't stand with many of the pillars of our faith - the 3 angels messages, the 10 commandments, the death and resurrection of Christ, and more.
Revelation is all about Worship, not only when, but primarily WHO. Who do you worship? I worship The Lord, God Almighty, Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgement has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of waters. (Singular His, Him)
Who created all things? By the Father through His Son Jesus.
Sad for Steve, he can't see that the Father through His Son created all things, as in "Let us", God the source of everything, and through the Son. Jesus came from Heaven to declare the Father claiming nothing for Himself, giving all the glory to the one who sent Him, Almighty God.
@powerofthelamb can you please explain to me, why every time Jesus had an encounter with devils (possessed persons) the devils told always the same thing: we know who you are: the Son of God. So, my question is, why no devil said : you are God?
Who was speaking to Abraham in the verse below? Jesus or the Father?
Genesis 17:1 (KJV) And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, 👉I [am] the Almighty God;👈walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Can Jesus represent the Father and speak His words as the “Angel of the Lord”? Didn’t the Father tell the angels in the Spirit of Prophecy that “the presence of his Son was as his own presence?”
“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. *Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him* . *But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak* ; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.” (Exodus 23:20-23)
“The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that he might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon his Son. The Son was seated on the throne with the Father, and the heavenly throng of holy angels was gathered around them. *The Father then made known that it was ordained by himself that Christ, his Son, should be equal with himself; so that wherever was the presence of his Son, it was as his own presence* . The word of the Son was to be obeyed as readily as the word of the Father. His Son he had invested with authority to command the heavenly host. Especially was his Son to work in union with himself in the anticipated creation of the earth and every living thing that should exist upon the earth. *His Son would carry out his will and his purposes, but would do nothing of himself alone. The Father's will would be fulfilled in him* .” {1SP 17.2}
How many wrong prophecies is allowed to pass the prophet test?
this is life eternal that they might know Thee the only True God and Jesus Christ whom he sent Jn 17:3
He gave his son, not another co-equal god. Is your son less important that you? Would it be easier for you to give someone equal to you or your own son?
In John 10:30, the context of the discussion of this statement has nothing to do with who God is, but what God does. Jesus was simply stating that they are working on the same team, doing the same thing. They are one in their actions, in purpose, in what they do. If a Mormon or a Jehovah Witness were to use a text out of context like that, we would accuse them of a deliberate misuse of a phrase out of context. We should not have a lower standard for ourselves than what we apply to them.
Consider other similar verses about being one, which get conveniently ignored:
“…Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.” Jn. 17:11 NASB
“That they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.” John 17:21-23 NASB
“Now he who plants and he who waters are one.” 1 Corinthians 3:8
@SteveWohlberg7 why don’t you use the word trinity as stated in the #2 28 FB? The definition of the trinity is met in the belief statement.
All authority came from the Father to the Son. God the Father is the creator of all things. Let us make is God the Creator, through the Son. This was together, but nothing is created without God.
I tried but this makes no sense all i can say is read for yourself people
Be careful. Just because the nature of God doesn’t “make sense” to you doesn’t mean it is error. “It is a masterpiece of Satan's deceptions to keep the minds of men searching and conjecturing in regard to that which God has not made known and which He does not intend that we shall understand. It was thus that Lucifer lost his place in heaven. He became dissatisfied because all the secrets of God's purposes were not confided to him, and he entirely disregarded that which was revealed concerning his own work in the lofty position assigned him. By arousing the same discontent in the angels under his command, he caused their fall. Now he seeks to imbue the minds of men with the same spirit and to lead them also to disregard the direct commands of God. . DD 9.2
All this talk/claims of 3 persons in the Godhead. I do believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, but I dont need to add to scripture to teach about them. There are zero bible texts saying the Godhead is defined that way, that is not even the meaning of the 3 greek words translated as " Godhead' in the 3 times that it is found in the New testament.
What about do not add to or take away from Gods word is not being understoood here?
He did obscure the fact Jesus is the only begotten Son. Nothing takes away from the Father and his Son than denying that Jesus is the only literal born Son.John writes of how severe this is in 1 John 2:22
James White(1876): "The principal difference between the two bodies is the immortality question. The S. D. Adventists hold the divinity of Christ so nearly with the trinitarian, that we apprehend no trial here. . . . "
Seventh-day Adventists and Seventh Day Baptists cannot afford a controversy on doctrines which neither regard as tests of Christian character." (Review and Herald, October 12, 1876, p. 116, col. 2.)
The eco is fron Pstr. Myers. Maybe you shoul keep the cell phones away from your equipment. Move them away from your microphones and mikes
1 john 5: 7 -8 absent from all text prior to the 16th century, acknowledged by erroneous by most scholars esp early Advent teachings. The Messiah never claimed to be God, but God's Son. Not role playing, he is divine that's where you go off because the term God instead of divine. Royalty is not lower the king's son is of the same substance but not the same person. Messiah never claimed to be coequal, co-anything. He said the Father is greater and that he inherited all things from the Father.
What is truly consistent in all of scripture is they are THREE. Period. The difference is when we try to create positions. Sounds like an old technique of Satan and his personal desires to create mass confusion.
Jesus Emmanuel is God with us. He is the Almighty God.
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
To all the Non-trinitarians on this board, let's settle this rigjt now.
Show a specific quote, FROM ELLEN WHITE HERSELF, where she clearly and emphatically states that Christ is NOT Eternal or Everlasting as the Father, and that the Holy Spirit is NOT a separate and distinct 3rd Being.
Make sure it is from Ellen White, make sure she is specifically saying those things, ...
...and don't even bother trying to pass off a Waggoner quote as a Spirit of Prophecy quote as some of you try to do.
Go ahead, show us the quotes.
She always pointed to scripture, so maybe use the Bible instead...
The Son received everything from the Father, His inheritance, being the Son of God. However, over and over, the Bible states, He was begotten, brought forth, from God. I believe the Bible, rather than the SDA church who deniesbthe Son of God, saying this is just a metaphor, so we can understand without finite human brains.
God created us, it is vitally important to Him that we understand Who He is, and He has made it very clear in His words to us, so that we can understand.
Revelation is all about Worship, about when, but mainly about WHO. The Son came to Glorify the Father, not Himself. The first angel says Fear God and give glory to HIM for the hour of HIS judgement has come, and WORSHIP HIM that MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, and the sea and springs of water.
Who made all things, God the Father, through Christ the Son. ❤
@BgSkyGrl then believe the Bible when it says this:
John 1:1-3, 14- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, AND THE WORD WAS GOD, THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Revelation 1:17-18- And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying unto me, "Fear not; I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST: I am He that liveth, AND WAS DEAD; AND BEHOLD, I AM ALIVE FOR EVERMORE, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."
John 8:58- Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I AM."
Micah 5:2- But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; WHOSE GOINGS FORTH HAVE BEEN FROM OF OLD, FROM EVERLASTING.
ISAIAH 9:6- For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: And the government shall be upon His shoulder: And His name shall be called, Wonderful, Counselor, THE MIGHY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, THE PRINCE OF PEACE.
Proverbs 8:22-31- The Lord POSSESSED ME IN THE BEGINNING OF HIS WAY, BEFORE HIS WORKS OF OLD. I WAS SET UP FROM EVERLASTING, FROM THE BEGINNING, IR EVER THE EARTH WAS. When there were no depths I was BROUGHT FORTH; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills WAS I BROUGHT FORTH: While as yet He had not made the Earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I WAS THERE: When He set a compass upon the face of the depth: When He established the clouds above: When He strengthened the fountains of the deep: When He gave to the sea His decree, that the waters should not pass His Commandment: When He appointed the foundations of the Earth: Then I was by Him, AS ONE BROUGHT UP WITH HIM: And I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him; rejoicing in the habitable part of His earth; and my delights were with the sons of me.
Psalms 90:1-2- (A Prayer of Moses the man of God.) Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, EVEN FROM EVERLASTING TO EVERLASTING, THOU ART GOD.
Allow me to add this too: John 17:3 KJV
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 Timothy 2:5 KJV
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
If you believe the concept of the trinity this verses is confusing.
The Father is God
Jesus Chris is His actual biological Son of God
The Holy Spirit is The Father: God is Spirit and God is Holy, hence Holy Spirit.
The Father said this is my beloved son. IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED.
The Comforter is Jesus Chris whom the Father dwells within.
Jesus Chris is God-Like hence his Pre, incarnation name Michael, but He is not God himself. As a Son He is Royal and Divine and worthy of worship and one in spirit with his Father but He is not the God of the Bible.
John 20:17 KJV
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
You won't get a straight answer from any of these.
Yes because people don't realize the word Begotten means Holy; just like Hollowed & the Bible Scriptures says the God Head 3 In One are equal & are one God in 3 Persons, they all have there part to play that works our for the plan of Salvation from Him Who made all things.
Please quote your source for Begotten, and for the Godhead 3 in one scripture.
And they say “AT’s do wordplays”, why don’t they look at themselves in the mirror?
They deny what’s already been defined 👇🏼
Monogenes (only begotten)
- Greek Strong’s Dictionary
3439. μονογενής monogenes, mon-og-en-ace´; from 3441 and 1096; only-born, i.e. sole: - only (begotten, child).
Monos= only
genos from 1096 ginomai = born.
Example:
“And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child.” (Luke 9:38 KJV)
But in the Greek it’s suppose to read as “only born child”
“Behold, a man from the crowd called out, saying, “Teacher, I beg you to look at my son, for he is my only born child.” Luke 9:38 WEB
Hence, the only born child that the father fathered who had no other sons.
Colossians 2:9 - "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
The "fullness of the Godhead" could not be expressed by anything or anyone who was not "equal" with GOD.
Furthermore, the "self-existent" GOD, as Jesus is described as possessing life "original, unborrowed, and underived," could not have been "eternally generated" nor "begotten" if we are to maintain consistency of language and logic.
Any philosophy that denigrates the exalted position of the Second Person of the Godhead, whom the Bible speaks of as "the Son of GOD," AND as "the Son of Man," and who is spoken of as simply and powerfully "GOD" by the Father Himself, and whom the SPIRIT of GOD said through Paul, the HE is "equal" with the Father, cannot be given as much time as its adherents are demanding. This is a diversion of Satan.
The Spirit of Prophecy observes that by the nature of the eternal GOD, the past, the present, and the future are all now. The Scriptures state that GOD speaks of things that have not yet occurred as if they had already occurred. The Godhead does not always, when speaking of its own thoughts and purposes, speak in a linear fashion; the Godhead does not exist in linear time.
Herein is a chance for us to become confused if we insist on the GODHEAD existing and moving linearly in time as we do. The GODHEAD's multi-dimensional eternality and "foreknowledge" is what enabled It to say of Christ that He was "slain from the foundation of the world." This, what I call "multi-dimensional eternality," is what enables YHWH say to Moses, "I AM that I AM. Tell them that the I AM has sent you" - the self-existent, multi-dimensionally eternal, self-sufficient GOD, an eternally social BEING in mysterious community of LOVE with each OTHER , each PERSON of the GODHEAD.
Now, we know that this eternal GODHEAD from "eternity past" (again, this is linear thinking) counselled together to once and for all remedy the sin problem (once it came into existence - linear thinking again) by ONE of THEM taking on human nature (perhaps, some have suggested, angelic nature as well "before" sin was brought to earth - i.e. in the form of Michael the Arc-Angel - I say this only by permission, not by inspiration), becoming the "last Adam", a Substitute and Surety who would become the new head of the human family after Adam's fall, who would as a human take on the penalty of mankind's sin (eternal separation from GOD), demonstrating the depth of the LOVE that the GODHEAD IS.
The SECOND PERSON of the GODHEAD (not in rank or importance or GOD-ness, but only in order - the FIRST PERSON of the GODHEAD, "the Father", "sent" or "gave" HIS SON (in linear time, JESUS "became" a Son, begotten of, conceived of the HOLY SPIRIT), the SON sent the THIRD PERSON of the GODHEAD, the HOLY SPIRIT) came into humanity, into linear time, having been "begotten of the Father," and dwelt among us - desiring for HIS character of LOVE to be indwelt in us by the HOLY GHOST (a ghost in the sense that HE has no form that we can conceive of).
So, for us to properly understand Psalm 2:7, or Acts 13:33, or Hebrews 1:5, or Hebrews 5:5 when they quote the Father saying, "Today have I begotten Thee," we must see this in light of the nature of the multi-dimensional eternality of GODHEAD. When did GOD say this, and of what event? Was it some "coming forth from the bosom of the Father" in "eternity past," or was it of Jesus' birth through Mary after she had conceived of the HOLY GHOST.
Philippians 2:5-11 (NLT)
5 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. 6 Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. 7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form, 8 he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross. 9 Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue declare that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
If God had wanted us to understand that He was a Trinity, He would have used a different image than that of a Father and Son, an image that men understand well and easily. Similarly, this would have been demonstrated in the creation of Adam and Eve. Yet God brings Eve out of Adam's womb, as if to tell us that she takes her origin from Adam. They are two, they create two beings. And they are united in spirit. Why complicate the simple?
It says in the presentation that to say Jesus is the literal son of God is to diminish him, and that the controversy in heaven was about whether he really is God. Is that the truth?
The revolt of Korah (Num 16) clarifies this point. Just as in that revolt, Satan declares in heaven that we are all sons of God, why should Jesus prevail over us? Simple answer. Because he is the only begotten son of God, he has the same characteristics as his Father. And who reaffirms his position? The one with the greatest authority in heaven, the one from whom the son derives his origin, his Father, the Most High, also called the Great Creator. See HR 11;2 SR13.2.
And what kind of life did Jesus receive? The same life his Father possessed. Original life, unborrowed, underived. In other words, eternal life. John 5:26. And this original, unborrowed, underived life we can obtain through Christ. See 1SM 296.2.
Dear pastors, you're missing the point.
So let’s simply the matter. Only two you say and the example is Adam and Eve. They both have a spirit. Their spirit ls did not make a third person neither did they share their spirit. My spirit is not a third person. My spirit is not a distinct being from myself unless of course you are coming to believe the error that human spirit is separate living entity from the person. So Is there a third person in the Godhead or no? Simplify this for me. Secondly, was there a time that God became a Father? Asked differently, tell me if there was a time when he did not have a Son. Finally, it seems that Korah’s rebellion is truly repeating and the authority God has given to the shepherds of his flock to guide the flock is routinely disregarded. “Pastors, ye take too much upon yourselves. Adventist church leaders, ye take too much upon yourselves.” The fear of touching the Lords anointed is certainly gone as ATs appear to feel that their authority supersedes that of the church at large.
@@powerofthelamb Thank you for your reply.
First of all, questioning a teaching is not questioning your authority. But it is a biblical principle:
1 Thes 5:21 « Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. » and also Act 17:11
If I didn't question the Catholic teaching I received and if I didn't seek the truth, I certainly wouldn't be an Adventist today. If the pastors had considered Rachel Oakes' message a denial of authority, the Adventist church would never have accepted the Sabbath!
When I wrote that they are one in spirit, I was referring first and foremost to the Father and his Son. This unity between Adam and Eve will be manifested in the formation of a single being of the same nature. But to make a new human being, a man and a woman must agree (united in spirit), otherwise it's a crime.
The Bible doesn't teach that someone's spirit is a being. But it does teach that one's spirit is one's inner being (one's breath, one's character, one's motivations, in short, one's identity) Ro 7:22; 2Co 4:16; Ep 3:16. When we die, our spirit ascends to God, and when we are resurrected, God gives us back what makes us who we are. But the church confuses "person" with "being".
To answer your question, and this is also what I wrote in my long comment, the Bible says that there is a Father, a Son and a Spirit. The Bible clearly states that the spirit belongs to God, and I would even go so far as to say that the spirit belongs to the Godhead (God and his Son) Rom 8:9-10. It's not a question of defining what it is, but of understanding who it is. The Spirit of the Godhead is the means by which God and his Son manifest themselves ( John 14:21). And if we want to go further, the Spirit is the life of God. Hence the need for someone who had received this life - Christ - to pass it on! John 5:26; John 10:17, 1 John 5:19-11. His death is not simply a ransom. But through his death, he also gives us his life, in other words, his Spirit. Gal 4:6. So we(those who believe) become partakers of the divine nature.
The third person of the Godhead is the expression used by EGW and she specifies that it is the spirit of Christ. By using the term "person", she rejects any idea of force or essence. It allows us to understand that we really benefit from someone's presence. Likewise, she says that while Jesus ministers in the sanctuary above, he is still by his Spirit the minister of the church on earth . DA 166.2
To the question: Was there ever a time when God became a father? I answer: was there ever a time when God lacked wisdom? Let's stick to what the Bible reveals. The Bible declares that before the creation of all things, Jesus was born. And we know that creation began with Jesus. This means that the Son of God is not inferior to God, since he has the same attributes as his Father. Does this mean that a son of man is less human than his father? No. So why say so when it comes to divinity? Jesus is divine because he is the only begotten son of God. The Spirit is divine because it is the Spirit of divinity! If the Spirit is another being, then Jesus is the son of God the Holy Spirit. Luke1:35.
The only "unity of three beings" taught in the Bible is that taught in John 17:23;26.
The Babylonian churches accused the Adventist church of rejecting Jesus' divinity in EGW's day precisely because it believed that Jesus really is the Son of God. And it's sad today to hear the same argument from our pastors.
If you believe in three distinct "beings" you are bound to contradict the Bible! That's why Adventist trinity advocates transform the one God into the united God. They do away with hierarchy in favor of equality. They do away with the real sonship of Jesus and redefine the term "Son". In this way, they give the impression of being in line with the Bible and the spirit of prophecy!
Dear brothers, who promised to be with us every day until the end of the world? Who walks unseen among the seven churches? Who knocks at the door of your heart? God the Holy Spirit or Jesus? Trinitarians must logically answer that it is God the Holy Spirit.
Who actually diminishes Christ? The one who thinks he's been given all the power and can therefore be with us and in us, or the one who thinks Jesus is so busy in the sanctuary that he sends us a colleague?
How many beings share God's throne in Revelation 22:3-4
Who is God and who is the lamb? Whose face will the redeemed see?
If you believe in three distinct "beings" you are bound to contradict the Bible! That's why Adventist trinity advocates transform the one God into the united God. They do away with hierarchy in favor of equality. They do away with the real sonship of Jesus and redefine the term "Son". In this way, they give the impression of being in line with the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy !
My role is simply to show you that this doctrine does not pass the test of the Bible without contradicting it. Your fate is in God's hands. The Adventist church has received many calls to return to its foundations, but its answer is
Jeremiah 6:16 (KJV)
16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
God bless
@@robertrochemont1658 First, the issue is not in questioning my authority but if you believe the SDA is the remnant church and that God has led and continues to lead it in truth. Going against the church doctrinal is basically to declare the church is part of Babylon. Is this what you are declaring?
Next, you said, “The Bible doesn't teach that someone's spirit is a being. But it does teach that one's spirit is one's inner being (one's breath, one's character, one's motivations, in short, one's identity) Ro 7:22; 2Co 4:16; Ep 3:16. When we die, our spirit ascends to God, and when we are resurrected, God gives us back what makes us who we are. But the church confuses "person" with "being".”
Please give a bible verse that uses the word “being” and then show biblically how a "being" is different from a "person."
You are trying to establish a definition for the word "being" to nullify how Ellen White used it to refer to the Spirit. Why not go to the 1828 Webster's dictionary term for "being" and "person"?
BE'ING, participle present tense [See Be.] Existing in a certain state.
1. A particular state or condition. [This is hardly a different sense.]
2. A person existing; applied to the human race.
3. An immaterial, intelligent existence, or spirit.
Here is the definition for person.
PERSON, noun per'sn. [Latin persona; said to be compounded of per, through or by, and sonus, sound; a Latin word signifying primarily a mask used by actors on the stage.]
1. An individual human being consisting of body and soul. We apply the word to living beings only, possessed of a rational nature; the body when dead is not called a person It is applied alike to a man, woman or child.
A person is a thinking intelligent being.
2. A man, woman or child, considered as opposed to things, or distinct from them.
A zeal for persons is far more easy to be perverted, than a zeal for things.
3. A human being, considered with respect to the living body or corporeal existence only. The form of her person is elegant.
Ellen White uses the term “person” 17,128 times. Are you ready to say that she never used the word “person” interchangeably with “being”? Are you sure you want to go this route?
The distinction between being and person is extremely arbitrary, and is non- existent in the Bible. Again, please show a verse where the word “being” is used and how we are supposed to distinguish this from a “person”.
Next, the third person of the Godhead cannot merely be Jesus “spirit.” This is not a third person, or third being in any way. Jesus Spirit cannot be called a third person as that would make no logical, no divine and no common sense. The Spirit is Christ’s “representative” and as such, stands for Christ, but is a third distinct person hence part of a “heavenly trio.” To explain away “trio” as actually meaning duo just doesn’t “add up”.
You said, “To the question: Was there ever a time when God became a father? I answer: was there ever a time when God lacked wisdom? Let's stick to what the Bible reveals. The Bible declares that before the creation of all things, Jesus was born.”
1. The answer to both questions is no. There was never a time that God was without wisdom meaning Proverbs 8 is poor example of using a poetical chapter and book to try to declare literal realities. Wisdom is personified as a woman. Is Jesus a woman. Proverbs 8 says nothing about “Jesus” being born. The bible nowhere in its 66 books “declares that before creation of all things, Jesus was born.” Here is my challenge to you. Provide the text that says this. I will wait here for this answer before address the rest of your response. One text that says Jesus was begotten before his incarnation.
@@powerofthelamb Ok in my long comment, i gave you the texts.But I see you don't want to answer my questions. My translation "iner being" is incorrect but you had the texts:
Romans 7:22 (KJV)
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
2 Corinthians 4:16 (KJV)
16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
Ephesians 3:16 (KJV)
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
You make statements and you don't present any Bible verses that contradict me or any verses that support your statements.
Is there a single verse in the Bible that describes the Holy Spirit as identical to the Father and the Son? Show me.
Is there a single verse where we see the Holy Spirit talking with the Father or talking with the Son of God? Show me too.
You said :« Going against the church doctrinal is basically to declare the church is a part of Babylon. Is this what you are declaring? ».
I know this quote from 1896 and it is correct at that time. Babylon means confusion. If you can answer my questions without contradicting the Bible, you'll have the answer to your own question. I'm not saying that the church is Babylon, I'm not accusing my brothers even though the church doesn't consider me a brother. And no doctrine can save a man.
You said:
You are trying to establish a definition for the word "being" to nullify how Ellen White used it to refer to the Spirit. Why not go to the 1828 Webster's dictionary term for "being" and
"person"?
Ellen White uses the term "person" 17,128 times.
Are you ready to say that she never used the word "person" interchangeably with "being"? Are you sure you want to go this route?
So let's get to it! But if we don't agree on the Bible we won't agree on EGW's writings either.
I know Ellen White used the term "third being" in Sermons and talks, and I also know she specified who she was talking about. Are you sure the 17128 times were used to describe God? Are you sure she never said that the third person is Christ?
She was very careful with the word when she wrote. Are you sure she used the phrase "third being" more times than "third person" or interchangeably? When you read "third person" in DA, keep reading the paragraph!
You've used Webster's dictionary and I accept those definitions. However, allow me a simple illustration: you are pastor, father, husband and brother all at once. All these titles represent persons in the eyes of those who associate with you, but you are one being. And all those who know you see the same being. What I mean is that a being can be represented differently by its functions. So I say that the "person" represents "a being".
So in Luke 1:35 (KJV)
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
The Spirit then represents God the Father. It is by this means that he has manifested his presence.
If the Holy Spirit is a "being", then there is a third source of life in heaven, and Jesus is the Son of God the Holy Spirit!
Other text:
Exodus 25:22 (KJV)
22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
Who manifests himself to Israel: God the Holy Spirit?
This person who is a being was poured out at Pentecost and does not share the throne in Revelation 22:2-3?
Show me one verse that says God the Holy Spirit and one verse that says God the Son!
Does the cat of Mike mean the same thing as Mike the cat? No. And yet that's what you do with the Bible!
Concerning wisdom, you said :
1. The answer to both questions is no. There was never a time that God was without wisdom meaning Proverbs 8 is poor example of using a poetical chapter and book to try to declare literal realities. Wisdom is personified as a woman. Is Jesus a woman. Proverbs 8 says nothing about
"Jesus" being born. The bible nowhere in its 66 books "declares that before creation of all things, Jesus was born." Here is my challenge to you. Provide the text that says this. I will wait here for this answer before address the rest of your response. One text that says Jesus was begotten before his incarnation.
Apart from denying an obvious text, you have proved nothing.
« Wisdom is personified as a woman. Is Jesus a woman. »
When Jesus spoke in a parable in John 15:5
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Is Jesus a tree? That's not an argument.
But Jesus the faithful witness himself says that he is the wisdom. Compare Matthew 23:34 and Luke 11:49
Matthew 23:34 (KJV)
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Luke 11:49 (KJV)
49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
Jesus clearly refers to himself as the wisdom of God. And the apostle Paul confirms this in 1 Corinthians 1:22-24.
Here's what EGW has to say on the subject:
« Study carefully the first chapter in Patriarchs and Prophets. From this chapter, I quote: 21LtMs, Lt 256, 1906, par. 7
“The Sovereign of the universe was not alone in His work of beneficence. He had an associate-a co-worker who could appreciate His purposes, and could share His joy in giving happiness to created beings. ‘In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.’ [John 1:1, 2.] Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father-one in nature, in character, in purpose, the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. ‘His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of peace.’ [Isaiah 9:6.] His ‘goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.’ [Micah 5:2.] And the Son of God declares concerning Himself: ‘The Lord possessed Me in the beginning of His way, before the works of old. I was set up from everlasting. ... When He appointed the foundations of the earth, then was I with Him, as one brought up with Him; and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him.’ [Proverbs 8:22, 23, 29, 30.] 21LtMs, Lt 256, 1906, par. 8
Well, well, she quotes Isaiah 9:6 and Proverbs 8! Jesus is the only being? This quote dates from 1906!
Do any verses say that Jesus is the Spirit? Of course there are!
To begin with, John 17:23;26
How ? By His Spirit. John 14:21 (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Paul clearly distinguishes God from Christ his Lord: 1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Identifying the Lord, he said:
2 Corinthians 3:17 (KJV)
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2 Corinthians 13:5 (KJV)
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Galatians 2:20 (KJV)
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
How can Christ live in me if not by His Spirit?
Galatians 4:6 (KJV)
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Sure, we disagree, but at least you have my texts. However, you still haven't presented me with a single verse that supports your assertions! And you haven't answered any of my questions.
@@robertrochemont1658what you wrote was very long and I read every word and you are spot on! How anyone can twist the scriptures and make it a trinity and believe it is beyond me! The Bible says that God will let a strong delusion come upon to believe a lie because they rejected truth! When you have to twist the scriptures to try to prove your point you are deceiving yourself, the scriptures are so plain that a child can understand!
This was not a debate. Please don’t deceive people thinking they will see something just to try to indoctrinate them with the doctrine that came from Rome. It would have been a debate if you would have invited a true none-trinitarian on your space.
I was taking about the Godhead debate in general. Don’t accuse people. Thats the work of the adversary.
@@powerofthelambpastor please invite a non trinitarian rather than misrepresenting them like you did with the other pastor.
@@newrez2391 I’ve debated enough ATs to know that we have not misrepresented them in the least.
I have seen a few misrepresentations. Please be honest with yourself Pastor Myers and show your viewers both sides of the coin, if you’re willing.
@@pilgrimsprogress6797 It is not up to me to expose my viewers to error. You may not like the representations but they are not misrepresentations. They are conclusions you may choose to deny as the reality of your position sounds jarring, but it is the truth. You are denoting Jesus, denying the third person of the Godhead. I have no reason to lie to my viewers.
Pastor ivor myers, can you explain what is meant by what ellen white says here
The Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father, is truly God in infinity, but not in personality. Ellen G. White, Ms. 116, 1905, Dec. 19.
I really hope these pastors will give an answer to this
“Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. (There are the two personalities, but God and Christ are one in perfection of character.) . 20LtMs, Ms 116, 1905, par. 15
@powerofthelamb ok so the perfection of character is the truly God of infinity (trying to make the connection to the quote I shared) but what about the personality part. To me this is saying that the name God belongs to the Father, while not so much the Son. I know there are verses that calls Jesus God but I'm wondering if the Norm is that the Father is referred to as God. I'm not trying to diminish the fact that Jesus is God just wanted to state that
@@1888gospelpreacher She is saying that the Father and the Son are two different persons. They are not the same person. (Oneness error)
@@powerofthelamb Either way, the distinction is:
“The Scriptures clearly indicate the relation between God and Christ, and they bring to view as clearly the personality and individuality of each. (Hebrews 1:1-5 quoted) God is the Father of Christ; Christ is the Son of God. To Christ has been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father. All the counsels of God are opened to His Son.” - Testimonies, vol. 8, p. 268
Making Jesus into a co-eternal twin God who takes a role as a functioning son, makes no distinction that He is the literal Son of God.
He is God in Infinity, meaning Eternity and Equality (in His Preincarnate state)...
...but not in Personality, meaning not the Same Person. They are Separate and Distinct, but still have the prerogatives of God.
Very clear, someone can still be AT by their own arrogance and blindness
@fredaregeokongo3135 The man who refuses to have his understanding quickened by the Spirit of God is in a state of blindness. He cannot appreciate the beauties of holiness, neither can he discern the deformity of sin. What a dreadful thing is willful spiritual blindness. Those who are spiritually blind, claim to be able to lead the blind; but they have closed their eyes to the light which has been graciously given them of God to show them the way to heaven, and in place of traveling the royal path cast up for the ransomed of the Lord to walk in, they follow another leader, even Satan. ST November 6, 1893, par. 3
The sound is too low. Should be a little louder
23:52 this is what the Jews Meant
John 19:7 KJV
The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
Genesis 1:26 does not tell us who was there, but we know from Job 38:7 that angels were present at creation. Humans are made in the image of God, yet they are a little lower than the angels (Psalm 8:5). It is therefore reasonable to conclude that angels are made more in the image of God than humans. If this is so, then it makes sense for God to request the assistance of angels in the creation of man. God is still the creator, the angels were merely assisting, like a team of nurses may help the surgeon, yet the surgeon is said to have performed the surgery. Most likely God was speaking to angelic beings who also have human characteristics of language, reason, judgment, music, and ability to choose, meaning we have a similar image to angels. Granted, the text does not state that God spoke to angelic beings, but it makes simple logical sense.
There are multiple problems with using John 8:58 to say Jesus is claiming to be God:
1. Earlier in this same conversation Jesus explicitly told them that he is a man: “you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.” John 8:40 NASB
2. In verse 42 Jesus again reinforces that God is someone else, and he has only been sent by God. Jesus said, “I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.” NASB
3. Jesus is answering the question that was raised in verse 53, “Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died?" The answer Jesus gave them was an explanation over multiple verses which meant “Yes, I am greater than Abraham” (because he is God's Messiah).
4. The translation of verse 58 itself is a problem. A more correct translation would say something like, “…I am before Abraham was.”
Many teach that Jesus is claiming to be the “I AM”. However, even though it can be said to be based on Exodus, the Jews did not use this as a name for God, and the Greek words were simply “ego eimi”, meaning “I am the one” or “it is me”. Even the man healed from blindness used this exact “ego eimi” statement a few verses later, in John 9:9. Nobody thought the blind man claimed to be God because he said “ego eimi”/I am. We also have Judas (Matt 26:25), Gabriel (Luke 1:19), Peter (Acts 10:21) and Paul (Acts 22:3, 26:29, Rom 11:13, 1 Tim 1:15) refering to themselves as "ego eimi."
Jesus himself, in John chapter 8, several times used “ego eimi” (8:12,16,18,23,24,28), but none of the Jews during this prior discussion ever supposed Jesus was referring to the divine name of God. For example, when Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I am you will die in your sins," the Jews did not respond by supposing that Jesus was claiming to be Yahweh.
If the Jews had understood Jesus at any time to have claimed to be God Himself, they would have used this against Him in His trial. But their question to Him was “Are you then the Son of God?” (Luke 22:70, Mat. 26:63-65), and they declared his positive response of sonship a blasphemy. The claim that the leadership was super-zealous for God is false. The true reason they wanted Jesus dead was due to their envy (Mat. 27:18, Mark 15:10). Furthermore, the Devil himself, in the temptation said, “If you are the Son of God...” (Mat. 4:3,6).
The stoning:
Chapter 8 is a continuation of chapter 7 in which we read, “...Jesus was walking in Galilee, for He was unwilling to walk in Judea because the Jews were seeking to kill Him” (7:1). “Why do you seek to kill Me?" (7:19). “Some of the people of Jerusalem were saying, "Is this not the man whom they are seeking to kill?” (7:25). “The chief priests and the Pharisees sent officers to seize Him” (7:32). In chapter 8 we also read Jesus saying, “you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you” (8:37). To ignore this background and instead claim that the intention to stone was because he claimed to be God is baseless, as that was their intention all along.
The Jewish leaders knew that if Jesus truly was the Messiah they would have to bow to Him in obedience and submission. This was revolting to their proud hearts. Just claiming to be greater than Abraham was enough to anger them. Steven was stoned for less than this! Even Paul said that he had formerly been a blasphemer, but it is highly unlikely that Paul had ever claimed to be God, so the blasphemy charge cannot be evidence of an actual claim of Jesus being God.
My husband explains it like this… That at some point God somehow took a piece of Himself in order to supply the Sacrifice. It’s hard for us to wrap our heads around that, but this gives us an easier way to understand.what God has done in order to create beings that are given an ability to choose… so beautiful This is why they are separate, yet they are ONE…
How many are one here, two or three?
@@Cryaloud There are three parts of the Godhead. The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. We will be looking into this subject for all eternity I believe. I’m not going to worry about it. Just going to pray every day to know my God better and be thankful for Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross that washes my sins and wipes my slate clean, PTL! 🙏☝️🙌
@@DeborahSnow-id6io Study the scriptures and accept nothing but a plain "Thus sayeth the Lord". Godhead is not the same as Trinity. Also, we all believe there is the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit , that's biblical. What is not biblical is to claim Almighty God is made up of three persons namely Father, Son, and Holy Spirit..that's unscriptural. The Bible makes it plain that Almighty God is the Father and the Father has the only begotten Son who is divine and received all the powers, glory and dominion from the Father to be equal with God, the Father.
@@Cryaloud1 John 5:7 KJV
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
If God consists of three entities, then He cannot be independent or indivisible. A God composed of multiple entities suggests that each entity is insufficient on its own. If one entity is powerful enough, why would we need three?
So is not God then?
"The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the three holy dignitaries of heaven, have declared that they will strengthen men to overcome the powers of darkness. All the facilities of heaven are pledged to those who by their baptismal vows have entered into a covenant with God.”-5 Bible Commentary, 1110. (Manuscript 92,1901).
Are you suggesting that the Godhead is insufficient?
@@User-f2f2v I am unsure if the Godhead is sufficient. The very idea of needing a pantheon of three entities raises the question of whether three is enough. In other words, if one entity is not enough, it is uncertain how many are needed for the pantheon to be self-sufficient.
@@powerofthelamb What I have shown is that the depiction of God as Three entities is no different than the polytheistic Gods of the Romans, or the ancient Greeks.
Each of these ancient Gods by themselves were weak and incomplete, and therefore relied on the strength of the pantheon for completeness.
@@JohnSpencer90 so Jesus is not God?
SDA vs Catholic vs Anti-trinitarian
CATHOLIC TRINITY
The Trinity of the Catholic Church is derived from Greek philosophy and teaches that it is the Father who eternally generates the Son. The Son is seen as having been derived/begotten by the Father while the Holy Spirit proceeds from both. This implies that the generation of the Son depends on the Father theologically and that the Father is the only one without origin. The Catholic Church affirms the eternal subordination of the Son.
ANTI-TRINITARIANS
Anti-Trinitarians have substantial similarities to the Roman Catholic Church’s concept of the trinity. They seem to have inherited the Roman Catholic Church’s understanding of God
with the Son in subordination to the Father having been begotten in a birthing event deriving his existence from the Father. This similarity is also seen in the procession of the Holy Spirit from both the Father and Son.
SDA GODHEAD
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one Godhead or one God with three co-eternal, co-equal divine Persons each God, in perfect unity though distinct from one another, None is the origin of the others.
The anti-trinitarians in reality are expounding Roman Catholic trinity doctrine and it is possible that Rome herself is at the head of their movement and has them deceived.
There's an echo coming through
After Christ was born in heaven (John 5:26) "there was never a time when the SON and FATHER where not together." Not in eternity, but from eternity Proverbs 8:25 says "Before the mountains were settle , before the hills was I brought Fourth (to give birth). The FATHER was ALONE In one point in eternity!!!
Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting
Christ always existed. He is God.
So at what point he was not a Father? John 5:26 says nothing about Jesus being born in heaven. Jesus was born on earth. Proverbs 8:25? It's a proverb. It's not literal.
@@powerofthelamb Micah 5:2. Also John 11:27 Martha says to Jesus "I believe that you are the CHRIST, the SON OF GOD, which should come into the world.
@@unknowngod5533 We all believe He is the Son of God. What is the argument? Why are you posting verses as if we don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God?
@@powerofthelamb If we all believe He is the Son of God, why then does Angel Manuel Rodriguez writes the following :“The term “Son” is used metaphorically when applied to the Godhead” (Angel Rodriguez, “A Question of Sonship” BRI article) ?
Please do again with correct audio.
Praise God! The echo was fixed