Did Anyone Believe in the Trinity Before Nicea?
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- Опубликовано: 5 янв 2023
- Recommended Reading - "The Forgotten Trinity" by James White: amzn.to/3Rls3bi (affiliate)
A charge that I have encountered in my comments is that nobody believed in the doctrine of the Trinity prior to the Council of Nicea. There is a half-truth to this in that, in the early days of the Church, the language of Trinitarian doctrine - namely, 1 God in 3 Persons, etc. - was not fully developed yet.
The linguistic understanding of the Trinity that Christians hold today comes largely from the Cappadocian Fathers - Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa and Gregory of Nazianzus - who lived around the latter half of the fourth century. Piggybacking off of the work of Athanasius, the great defender of Christ’s deity in the wake of Nicea, the Cappadocian Fathers would give the most detailed expression of what Trinitarianism affirms, that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three co-equal, co-eternal divine Persons with one common being, substance or nature - that being of God.
It would be anachronistic to look for the fully articulated language of the doctrine of the Trinity prior to the ministry of these men. Nonetheless, what we can look for in early Church is the teaching of the core principles of Trinitarianism; that there is only one God, that Jesus is truly God as the Father is along with the Holy Spirit, but is nevertheless distinct from the Father & Spirit in His Personhood.
One of the preeminent early Church fathers was Ignatius, bishop of Antioch and a student of the apostle John. Ignatius wrote many letters before he was martyred in Rome in the year 107AD. In his letter to the church of Ephesus, Ignatius states in his opening, “…by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God…” This statement is proof of two things: 1) Ignatius believed Jesus was truly God and 2) Ignatius believed that Jesus was distinct from the Father. He makes a similar statement in chapter 18, while also referring to Jesus as, “the Son of God who was begotten before time began, and established all things according to the will of the Father…” In addition to overtly stating his belief in the deity of Christ, Ignatius also ascribes eternality and Creatorship to Him - these two attributes being ones that are only found in God. In chapter 19, he goes so far as to describe Jesus as, “…God being manifested as a man…”
Ignatius reenforces these beliefs in his letter to the Romans:
“…to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that willeth all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God…I also salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father…who are filled inseparably with the grace of God, and are purified from every strange taint, abundance of happiness unblameably, in Jesus Christ our God… to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High God the Father, and of Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is sanctified and enlightened by the will of God, who formed all things that are according to the faith and love of Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour..."
These statements again affirm that Ignatius is a monotheist (he believes in only one God) while attributing that one essence of God to both the Father & the Son and, at the same time, maintaining a distinction between the Father & Son. This is Trinitarianian belief before the advent of the term Trinity.
“For our God, Jesus Christ, now that He is with the Father, is all the more revealed.”
“There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible, -- even Jesus Christ our Lord…our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin.”
In this single statement Ignatius affirms: that Christ is truly God, that Christ’s unique office in the Godhead is as the Son and, simultaneously, that Christ is truly man. All of these beliefs are at the core of the Christian faith through the present day.
The Trinity is not a doctrine invented by men or a corrupt Church. It is the clear, consistent teaching of the entirety of the Christian scriptures and it was affirmed as such by the earliest generations of the Church.
For more info on the Trinity, you can watch my lecture on the doctrine here: ruclips.net/video/hQF2oI-LJiU/видео.html
Thank you for your viewpoint , I agree . I made the mistake of thinking your viewpoint was against the deity of Christ , my mistake , God Bless You !
Greetings!
It's interesting that everything you quoted supports Oneness doctrine.
Until Christ is fully formed in us all
-james
Sir with no disrespect respect to you there is no such thing as trinity.
Read kjv bible do what it say and God will reveal his truth to you.
ruclips.net/video/Ryabm9IpjI0/видео.htmlsi=Hfq_nJQTKQLi66VV
1 Timothy 2 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
⁵ For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
⁶ Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Before Isaac Newton formulated the theory of gravity, people used to float up into the air.
Good One:)
Funnily enough Isaac Newton studied theology all throughout his life and rejected the trinity doctrine completely. He was inherently unitarian.
@@maciiol2 Yeah well, his theory of gravity was also wrong so...
@@KFish-bw1om Ever read the New catholic encyclopedia?
Vol. 14, p299 admits that the trinity doctrine is bs.
Newton seemed to be clever enough to also understand this in his time.
@@maciiol2 Never read it. Not a Catholic. Wouldn't be surprised by any nonsense the RCC says, as they teach a false gospel anyway. Your argument has no weight whatsoever. The trinity is clearly represented in scripture, and was understood by the early church, long before Rome ever started making up nonsense about Mary or selling indulgences. The best argument you have is also the dumbest. "wElL tHe wOrD iSn'T iN tHe Bible!". Yeah, that's because it's a descriptive label applied by people to summarize the nature of God that has been clearly revealed to us in the Bible.
The Didache of the Apostles, one of the earliest Christian books (albeit very small) does mention Father-Son and Holy Spirit and that everything should be done in their Name!
You believe that the Didache is authentic and unaltered?
@@MichaelTheophilus906 Unless one can prove otherwise, then yes, I do! This applies to whatever we consider "Scripture". The Didache is a very small book and considered authentic (it even made it into the Canon in the early Church but was later removed). It does give us a very good idea of early Church practices.
@@pantelispanopoulos It's already been proven that it is from the late 3rd century. Obviously never seen by the Apostles.
@@hargisP2 Wikipedia says otherwise! I copy paste: The Didache (/ˈdɪdəkeɪ, -ki/; Greek: Διδαχή, translit. Didakhé, lit. "Teaching"),[1] also known as The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations (Διδαχὴ Κυρίου διὰ τῶν δώδεκα ἀποστόλων τοῖς ἔθνεσιν), is a brief anonymous early Christian treatise (ancient church order) written in Koine Greek, dated by modern scholars to the first[2] or (less commonly) second century AD.[3] (This was taken from the Britannica Encyclopedia). If you still disagree, then I rest my case. God bless!
That isn’t the Bible, not found in the Bible nothing needs to supplement the Bible…..do not add nor take away……father son and Holy Spirit are titles and functions…..nothing in the matthew 28:19……. “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things WHATSOEVER I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
Matthew 28:19-20 KJVAAE
Why can’t you just believe in one God like Jesus himself believed.
We do believe in one God. Your mistunderstanding about trinity make you think we dont
@@tyowongndesothat's a lie yall worship 3 persons and the three are gods so yall have 3 gods
Unfortunately Christianity adopted pagan polytheism from Egypt, greece and rome.
because Thomas worshipped him in John 20 and He let Him...
ruclips.net/video/Ryabm9IpjI0/видео.htmlsi=Hfq_nJQTKQLi66VV
Go forth and baptise all nations in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.
Baptized at Pentecost all were filled with Holy Spirit it is obviously a force or power emanating from God. Nowhere in scripture except the spurious text added 1John5:7 says the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one and the same.
@@johnhamilton2914 No they are not the same....there are 3 persons in ONE GOD
@@johnfrancis4401 yeah ok you mean like Shiva Vishnu Krishna? Or Isis, Osiris and Ra? Why do you want to mix pagan origin teachings with Christianity? Jesus warned of this apostasy and it flourished after the death of the last Apostle John. Don't bother quoting from any second century writer as if they were teaching truth.
@@johnhamilton2914 In Gen. 1:26, who is "us"?
@IBenZik you know who Prov8:30. Master worker helper to the Father. El Shaddai and El Gibbor working together. What does that have to do with the trinity?
Thank you this is excellent
Wrong information.
@@hargisP2 If you prefer to live in ignorance
Great info! Thank you!
His information is wrong. Ignatius believed ONE GOD. He reads like a westerner, instead of middle eastern. And failing to consult the Greek.
The Father is the only true God.
ruclips.net/video/W-MtU207Pcc/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/hQF2oI-LJiU/видео.html
AND JESUS CHRIST WHOM HE HAS SENT. Finish the verse
@@tongakhan230 you clearly don't understand the tri-unity of God then. Jesus can be God (because the bible says He is) and be Sent by God because the doctrine of the Trinity affirms the Jesus is NOT the Father, (Cos scripture already makes that clear too). If scripture affirms both things, how can we reconcile it? Answer: Trinity
@@SamC_182 Yep
@@tongakhan230 The Holy scriptures , old and new are about Jesus
God the Father, the Son of God and the Spirit **OF** God, perfectly Biblical.
God, God the Son and God the Spirit, is an added philosophical concept, with No supportive Bible scripture.
Try and explain this philosophy to the Jews who understood that the Father is the source of all Life and therfore He is referred to as the only true God unto this day. 1Cor 8:6.
Scripture can be misused to ALLUDE to many false teaching like the Trinity. Where in scripture is there a "Thus saith the LORD" for any of the Trinitarian assumptions like three persons forming a singular God, Christ being Co-Eternal with His Father (unlogical ) or Christ being referred to as "God the Son" etc. NO Scripture to back it up.
There is only one Jesus, and He cannot be divided into a pre and post incarnate Christ. He simply continued His life as the incarnate Christ with both Human and Divine nature, where as before he had only a Divine Nature.
Jesus a Jew by human nature, and God by Divine Nature also states that His Father is the Only true God, Jhn 17:3 because He is the source of all Life, and that He Himself received Life from His Father. (Jhn 5:26) When did He receive life from His Father? Not at His incarnation because that would mean He did not have life before. Proverbs 8 states that it was before all creation.
Jhn 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: (The Father is The God of Israel, not a Trinity)
Jhn 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said....3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (The Father is the only True God according to Jesus)
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Through Solomon Christ declared concerning Himself as the Wisdom of God: Proverbs 8:22- "The Lord possessed Me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was set up from everlasting,...When there were no depths, I was brought forth;..before the hills was I brought forth....I was by Him, as one brought up with Him; and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him."
*Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: *
Thank you very much for that!
Oh, so many doctrines and practices in the church(es) nowadays (and for a loooong time now) that are completely unbiblical - one might say: intentionally fabricated to destroy the true faith.
The Ignatius quotes are (mostly) consistent with arianis,m.
Scholars have said there are Ignatian writing which are forgeries, even by arians.
It doesn't establish Jesus is God in a trinitarian way.
This is fringe nonsense.
Each of the seven genuine letters also has a shorter and longer version, but only the shorter versions are considered authentic. In addition, there are several spurious epistles attributed to Ignatius, including three that exist only in Latin and six forgeries in Greek versions.
Where in those statements from Ignatuis do you get the quote Jesus is the Most High God, and where does Ignatuis show the holy spirit as the third person?
Obviously, you did not understand what you read!!
@adriandalanon474 You are the one who doesn't understand.
G-d talked to , led , blessed Abraham , Issac and Jacob , and He became their G-d , but he never told them his name . Centuries later , He told Moses His Name , I am . G-d has revealed Himself gradually over thousands of years .
Jesus is the exact Image of The Invisible G-d
Yes Jesus is The Image of God@@tongakhan230
Actually... You're incorrect. God did not say that His name was "I am". You stopped reading one verse too early. God made a declaration of existence to Moses in Exodus 3:14. "Am" means "existing" or "a state of being". This is opposed to all of the gods Moses was exposed to in Egypt.
God actually tells Moses His real name in the next verse... Exodus 3:15. Unfortunately most English translations do not put in the name, they use "Lord God" instead. This happens like 6,800 times in the KJV. Except in a few verses, like Exodus 6:3, where they insert the most popular guess as to what the name is.
When God's name is in the bible, it's called the tetragrammaton. It's 4 Hebrew letters... with letter(s) missing. That's why some say Jehovah or Yahweh... they're just guesses, but the tetragrammaton is God's actual name... that He certainly told Moses.
And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God (
@@kevin8360 actually…..my point is that Jesus is the Name of The Father , Son ,and Holy Spirit
Matthew 28:19
baptizing them in the NAME of The Father ,and of The Son , and The Holy Spirit ……..
Jesus said to do it this way , but you will not find anyone baptized into any other name than the name of Jesus , the only name given under Heaven by which man might be saved
Jesus is the name above all names , according to the Bible
@@jwsanders1214 Ahhh… the Acts 2:38 misunderstanding! Gotcha!
What does baptize mean? Hint, they did it to dishes in Mark 7:4. The Greek literally means to immerse, but is used for washing or cleansing. That’s what John the Baptist was doing… “washing” people of their dirty ways.
What does “in the name of” mean?
If an army goes to battle, in the name of the king… they’re representing the king. They fight for the king.
If your lawyer goes to court, they’re going in your name… they represent you. They can speak for you.
So who were they talking to in Acts 2? Jews, there for Pentecost.
And what does the second half of Acts 2:38 say? They’ll receive the Holy Spirit!
So the command is to wash or cleanse representing the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit… nothing to do with the actual names, its representation!
Again, they were talking to Jews… who were there to celebrate Pentecost. They were already “washed” by the Father. They knew the laws.
They were introduced and taught Jesus as Messiah… and “washed” by what they learned.
And finally, they would receive the Holy Spirit… which would lead, guide, teach… and “wash” them.
All 3 are there! And again, talking to Jews… and Peter mentioned both Jesus and the Holy Spirit. 1+1+1=3
And it’s pretty clear (not 100%) that Jesus name was Yeshua (Joshua)… since him and Joshua of the Old Testament are iesus in the New Testament Greek… so why was the name Jehovah/Yahweh used in the Old Testament? Why wasn’t it the same as Joshua in the Old Testament? He had a sudden name change?
And seriously, don’t you think information that important would have been told to the disciples by Jesus? And possibly recorded in the scriptures, other than by one single verse that would be extremely unclear at best, if that was actually the case!
I love how people have these “amazing mysteries that are necessary for salvation”, but no one just comes out and says it in the scriptures!
The New testament itself does not directly state the trinitarian doctrine. In fact the word Trinity is not found anywhere in the New testament. However the New testament does allude to the fact that the father is God the son is God the holy spirit is God three persons one being. God allows us to discover him over time. By the end of the Nicene council it was well understood that God is three persons one being and that Jesus is fully God and fully man, two natures one person. The trinitarian doctrine is fully embraced by the entire Catholic Church Orthodox church and Protestant church.
I do not disagree with the majority of your comment but I would make one simple request .Please be careful referring to a number of churches as the protestants church .In this issue for example most churches including mine believe in the trinity .Jehovah's witnesses and the church of latter day saints I believe do not !!!.
"By the end of the Nicene council it was well understood that God is three persons".
No, at the time only the issues about the Father and the son were debated. The issue about the holy spirit came up and the council of Constantinople was presided by Theodosius in 381 AD after the death of Constantine. After that council Theodosius issued an edict that those (other christians groups including the followers of Jesus' disciples) that won't recognize the trinity and everything that were agreed upon in those councils would be branded "heretics" and would be banned/killed.
Those councils were presided by pagan Emperors Constantine and Theodosius.
What would result? Pagan doctrines.
@@davidmccarroll8274 Unitarians as well.
Yes they all fully embrace all pagan origin teachings trinity, hellfire, celebrate Christmas and Halloween...yes all fully embraced paganism following in the footsteps of the apostate, pseudo Christian church. Well done! Maybe it would be good do obey Jesus words to be no part of the world as he is no part of the world. Paganism fully embraced and true Christians are persecuted just as our Lord said.
@@benbenwards9999 you are aware that I have the notes of all the councils from the fourth century to the 9th century? You're aware of that right? As far as the council of nicea and other councils bringing in paganism that is absolutely false. If anything they reinforced the teachings of scripture. I've studied the council's off and on for many years. Nice try though.
One major problem the early church did not teach tithing either! They didn’t teach Trinity because over 500 people were at the baptism of Jesus where they clearly heard the voice of God cry out this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased and also witness a white dove descend from above in which many believed was a sign of the Holy Spirit descending on Jesus
All of the things we believe today were not taught by the first Christians. Ignatius and the orthodox scum's bootlicking led to severe persecution of fellow Christians. They killed off their opponents. They did not pray them away. A little homework on the worldwide church will open your eyes.
its called development of Doctrine, even though the seed is there in Scripture, look up Cardinal John Henry Newman
Okay soo, is orthodoxy/orthodox christians in line with these teachings or na??
Yes, the Orthodox teachings are the ones before the medieval times brother.
Sister & okay I was just wondering.. because I thought they were from my studies. I'm considering becoming Orthodox.
Yes, orthodoxy belives in the trinity.
Hi, brother. I believe you are on the right path. As the matter of fact, only the Orthodox Church preserved the original church teaching and only Ortodox Church still follows all the decisions of all Great Councils and the Holy Fathers who participated in them.
Unfortunately for Catholic Christians(under the Pope), the filioque clause was added to the Creed recited at the Roman Mass (Latin Rite) by Pope Benedict VIII (1024). The addition of the Filioque to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed was condemned as heretical by many important fathers and saints of the Eastern Orthodox Church, including Photius I of Constantinople, Gregory Palamas, and Marcus of Ephesus, sometimes called the Three Pillars of Orthodoxy. You will research it yourself, but I just wanted to write the basic difference between the Orthodox and other churches.
The essence of the faith of Orthodox Christians is reinforced and summarized precisely in the Symbol of Faith or Nicene Creed (whenever I had a doubt like you now I would repeat it to myself) which was established at the First Council in Nicaea:
"
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He arose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; Who spoke by the prophets.
In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
"
All the best
@@bolence85The first Christians were actually jews and their gentile converts, who were more than likely noahides/god fearers. The religion itself wasn't even called Christianity, rather, it was called " The Way"
People were saved in christ before the orthodox church or Catholicism was even dreamed of. THIS is the path I wish to follow. The orthodox church is just a cesspool of ethnonationalism/racism.
Philo of Alexandria wrote about the concept that the Jewish God is three Persons in one God before the birth of Jesus.
Valentinius (c. AD 100 - c. 180) was the first one who successfully promoted the 3 in 1 concept to the early Christian church. According to Tertullian, Valentinius was a candidate for bishop in Rome. His teachings permeated the early church, especially in the western part of the Roman Empire. It was arguing against Valentinius that prompted Tertullian to come up with the term "trinitus" or trintiy in English. Valentinius could have very possibly been influenced by Philo. He is probably considered one of the church fathers for Christian Gnosticism. Only if he had not been criticized by Tertullian and Origen he could have probably be the main church father and proof of precedence for the Trinitarians.
@scotvessell9716
Are you able to provide a citation or quote to support your claim about Philo?
@@moosa86 I don't know about Scot finding any citations but from my studies I can confirm Philo of Alexandria did have a very similar trinitarian idea. However the trinity concept was something familiar to all the religions which had leaders who were heavenly influenced by Platonism. The Jews, The Gnostics, The Christians. But not the Muslims, they had their own philosophies. Descendants from Ismael they had more of an Abrahamic faith.
@jdwagman
I would love it someone could provide some quotes from Philo supporting the Trinity. I agree with you Platonism, Neo-Platonism, and a 3rd century CE philosopher named Plotinus all had a heavy influence on how some in those communities (unfortunately even Islam) chose to interpret their scriptures.
From my understanding Philo was known as a “Hellenized” Jew who likely leaned in a “less than traditional” direction when trying to relay his ancestors’ writings to his contemporaries.
Yeah a concept. Why is anyone making a concept out of it in the first place, you should be able to read the Bible and understand but it's mistranslated and added to in places for this doctrine. John 1 being mistranslated how it is people could never sway for that "concept" if they don't branch out and understand earlier texts didn't contain these verses to bolster the "concept".
Funny that Ignatius never mentioned that Holy Spirit as a separate sentient being or mentioned it in his greetings as Paul did in all Pauline epistles...
How can you say that Ignatius believe trinity.
He believes that Jesus is God, which is true, but never mentioned that the Holy Spirit is part of Godhead...
so where is the trinity there?
He didn't need to mention it, because the discussion wasn't about the Holy Spirit, but about whether Jesus was God or just a simple man. The Holy Spirit is mentioned in the Old Testament many, many times, and there's a passage in the Gospel of Matthew that has Jesus saying all nations should be baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Every sane Christian believed in the Trinity even before the word for it was invented.
@@aliceinwonderland4395holy trinity is mentioned in the Old Testament? LOL what a joke. Moses never preached it. Abraham never preached it. Noah didn’t preach it. There’s literally a verse in the Bible where Jesus says the father is the ONLY true God. There’s a literal verse that invalidates ALL of the other vague verses that all of you Christian’s like to twist. You are a joke.
Good point. For first 3 centuries no one belived in Trinity. Then came Athanasius from Alexandria, introduced ancient egyptian trinity into Christian faith.
@@aliceinwonderland4395 Baptising in the name of Father, Son, Holy spirit is just a symbolic reference to how a person enters into the path of salvation by believing in Jesus. His sins are forgiven by Jesus's sacrifice on cross. He will be led by Spirit of God. He will worship God and follow his commandments sent through Jesus. That is it. I can't think anything more to it. If there is more to it, Jesus would have explicitly stated that in many places. He would not have left it as buzzle to solve for later generation. You are correct, Holy spirit was active in Old testament. Even Jesus was active in old testament. But, you will never see Old testament prophets used the word "Trinity".
@@KKJ0214 "It's just symbolic" and yet Jesus refers to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit multiple times throughout all 4 gospels and everyone seems to understand this except you. Being ignorant of the Trinity is your fault, because it's much simpler than whatever bullshit you said in that comment.
How can you prove Ignatius was a disciple of the apostle John?
I think there is a error here. Ignatius is the disciple of Polycarp, who is the disciple of John.
The disciples are not selected in private or in secret. There were entire communities "Churches" with them.
@@onyxstone4618
My problem is with their writings. They are filled with error and contradictions. They also believed in fables, which the apostles told us would come after them. They were also antisemitic. Ignatius introduced some weird doctrines and traditions.
What about Gregory Thaumaturgus? He articulated the Trinity very well.
I don't remember him in the names of the Apostles. You are being like the Pharisees having their extra biblical oral traditions.
@@hargisP2Then you believe that the Church of Christ that died long time ago when Jesus and the apostles left the world. That's why Sola Scriptura is completely wrong, it denies the survival of the original Church stablished by Christ. It reeplaces the infinite Christ authority with finite human interpretation authority instead of Fides receptus. There weren't early christians that believe such a thing like "Sola Scriptura". Even the original Scripturas were lost long Time ago. Scripturas we've today were totally preservad and canonized by Church's tradition.
Beautifully said
Diana (Artemis) also came to be viewed as a trinity of three goddesses in one, which were viewed as distinct aspects of a single divine being
Anti-trinitarians are a dividing spirit not from God.
Amen
PROUD "ANTI-trinitarian" here who loves Allah SWT and HIS MESSIAH Jesus. Worship the one who SENDS (Allah) and not the one who is SENT (Jesus).
@@hassanmuhammad2799
Pride cometh before the fall.
@@hassanmuhammad2799 Allah is not YAHWEH.
Trinitarians are not from the one true God. John 17.3, John 20.17, Rev 1.5-6, Rev 3.12.
If the Apostle Paul didn't mention the Trinity concept, and he clearly does not, that should get everyone's attention. Paul's letters are the earliest Christian documents we have. And the Holy Spirit wasn't officially added to the Trinity until the First Council of Constantinople in 381... 56 years after the Council of Nicaea, the Roman bishops were still making up new stuff.
1 Corinthians 11:3 - "But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God." 👈
are father , son and Holy Spirit Titles ?
No, not like "Christ" which is a title meaning "the anointed one". Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each refer to distinct persons within the godhead. They are not titles that conceivably could be conferred on different persons, but names of actual persons in a similar way that your name refers to you uniquely.
@@davidscholtz3242 Yes , I agree 100% . You must be a Christian
Nobody even heard of a rapture until a few decades ago.
Go to revelation chapter 4 verses 1 and 2.The rapture is clearly described but the word rapture is not used .In our modern day culture we have a habit of finding a way of reducing things to a label for easy reference !!!
@@davidmccarroll8274 The 'rapture" is supposedly a physical thing, but scientific and natural laws prevent physical bodies to float to outer space. And since God is the author of all laws, God will not break them. God said the physical body will return to earth while the spirit goes to the spirit world to live forever.
150 years ago
Because knowledge increased after K J V was available.
@@Stanbott If you are referring to the rapture only being heard of 150 years ago then go to revelation chapter 4 verses 1 and 2.The rapture is clearly described without using the word rapture .Nowadays we have grown into a habit of giving things a label to simplify and give easy reference !!!
My brother in Christ, I thank the Holy Spirit and you who have been moved by Him to make this video. I will be speaking to some Mormons next week and this video is an ENORMOUS help to show them that doctrines such as the Trinity, hypostatic nature of Christ, the true divinity of Christ, are found in the Church prior to the 1st Century (100 AD onwards). 100 AD is a MAJOR milestone for Mormons as they claim this is when the early Church went into Apostasy, this proves them wrong utterly and truly. May God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit bless you and motivate you to continue your ministry, for it is NOT in vain.
Thank you for the feedback! May the Lord bless your witness to your Mormon friends.
Holy Spirit the person is here in this world to support a believer right
after the Glory of Lord Jesus Christ
soon after the Resurrection
some 1991 years back.(may be
AD33)
Disgusting... I'm in Africa to hear such its idolatry and abomination to God of Abraham and Moses .. we all spirit being created in the image of God.. we all have God in us ... that's does not make us little gods .. so fellow human being... study the hebrew scriptures, your eyes will be opened... catholics have doctored idolatry religion called Christianity to messy up the world ...
2:19 context? Attributes Only God?
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Revelation Chapter 22
18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
The book being, the book of Revelation.
Beautifully presented ..Gbu brother 😊Shalom from India 🇮🇳 ✝️ 😊
What the fuck
Man gets himself in trouble when he tries to put labels on things that are not in God’s word. The Bible is clear about God Jesus and the Holy Spirit. God explained it quite well. But man is not satisfied and must add their own labels or descriptions to simple scripture, this creates confusion.
True, they invented a three-headed god, like the pagans.
I concur. We end up adding to scripture when we introduce our own labels. We should stick to the terms/titles the bible uses.
It’s also extremely dangerous to accept the writings of Ignatius as inspired of God especially when they go beyond what was written in God‘s word.
@@TheCriscantu The "Church Fathers" were the first apostates. Jesus, Peter, and Paul warned us about these people.
You said ignatius was a student of the apostle john. How true is that? Any proof of evidence?
It was polycarp @@d-digital3612
“Please forgive me”Ignatius of Antioch is regarded as one of the first Orthodox saints, his devotion laid the path for what is to come…. have you heard of Saint Paisios of Mt Athos, he is said to have touch the heart of god himself with his devotion to him and his mother, the one who suffered the most watch her son get murdered for our sins….
God has sent a message for us through him..
god bless you good man.
If Jesus is God (or equal to God the father), why did he call our God and Father his God and Father at John 20:17?
ruclips.net/video/hQF2oI-LJiU/видео.html
Because Jesus has two natures: human nature and God nature. In that time, man nature was speaking. 👌
@@jezreelbatistapalmero699
Jesus also called our God his God when he was in heaven.
Rev 3:12 “The one who conquers-I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.”
@@jezreelbatistapalmero699 And what scriptural evidence for this do you have? Please note that we don't care what some old catholic said...
Where exactly in the bible does it say Jesus had more than one nature?
Amen .. we're lead by evil people with twisted minds like catholics.. they are evil.. they did not end there they created white marry and Jesus.. they pray through Mary to Jesus.. idolatry at its best ... I love Hebrew Bible there's no such twisted doctrine
Excellent, the first century church were already worshiping in Trinitarian terms, affirming the fullness and the richness of the Deity of the Father and Son who is the Kurios ( Lord of All things seen and unseen).
Show me the money lol
Give historical accounts please not just a statement
@@gabrielrocha560 Why does everyone on the internet always expect that everyone else on the internet must provide them with a dissertation containing a full account of every piece of historical evidence that supports any statement they make about anything?
Two days from now someone else can make the same statement in a completely different thread somewhere, and you'll ask for the exact same evidence again, whether you already got it or not.
You are responsible for typing your own search queries into Google. All of the writings of the early church fathers are available for free in multiple places on the internet.
Dead wrong. OMG where to start here...
what! Nicea! Trinity! why this confusion when Jesus made belief in the Trinity abundantly clear in so much of His teaching
How can that be true? Jesus literally says, Baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is very plain. Anyone who denies the Son does not have the Father.
Does Jesus say that we should pray in the name of the Father , Son and Holy Spirit
U can believe the father the son and the holy no problem that's correct but not mention trinity it is unbiblical the Gospel forbidden or forbid adding or subtracting the scripture just focus what is written have respect our God the creator ..even the early christian the apostles didn't mention trinity ..trinity is a man made doctrine came from nacea council ..u need to study more thank u
@@limjerry2735 The word trinity means triune. Jesus said baptize in the name of the triune God. I will obey Jesus.
Much of Ignatius is dodgy. There are 3 variant documents, long, middle, and short. We don't know which ones are valid. Either way, there was obviously disagreement in the early church. Many different beliefs. To take one and simply say that was just the mainstream view is just wrong. The winners write history. The Trinitarians ended up winning and were able to write the history. But they couldn't completely hide the truth.
What's the truth?
@BoucherRaphael Certainly not the Trinity. Scholars call "Dynamic Monarchianism". One monarch, one God, who just is the Father. Now we're called Biblical Unitarians or Socinian Unitarians. That's the truth of Christianity.
I've always wondered what you unitarians believe Jesus is, if he isn't God in the flesh. Is he a separate god? Is he just a man? Was there nothing special about his birth or death? Did his flesh not resurrect in 3 days? What was the point of Jesus?
And if unitarianism is the truth, then what happens to the Holy Spirit? Does it just fizzle out of existence? Do you deny that it is God? Do you believe it's a separate force or a separate god?
And what is the Father? Why is God called the Father? Why does God only have one prosopon, according to you?
Or do you unitarians believe that all 3 of these prosopons *are* God, but you just have an allergic reaction to the word Trinity because of bad history?
I always see unitarians denying the Trinity and debunking it as "fake" but I've never seen a single unitarian back up their arguments. Most unitarians end up converting to Islam and leave Christianity behind altogether, because they can never explain what Jesus meant in the gospels.
@@aliceinwonderland4395dale tuggy, Anthony buzzard, and Sean Finnegan all have videos directly and clearly explaining their views. You can find them there. Also I would love evidence that “most Unitarians” end up becoming Muslims. Where did you get that from?
@@aliceinwonderland4395 It's not that hard to find the answer to all of those questions. Just go listen to some Unitarians. Dale Tuggy, Sean Finnegan, etc.
But a super quick rundown: Some Unitarians believe Jesus preexisted as an angel or divine being, but we all agree that he was a real human being and definitely not the one true God.
There's a variety of views on the atonement, but we believe that his death saves us from sin and death in some way. We also believe in the virgin birth.
He was definitely resurrected by God after 3 days. The point of Jesus was to bring the kingdom of God to earth and to bring repentance to all people. His death was also part of this.
The fact that you asked that about the Holy Spirit shows you really don't care about learning about us. Anyway, we believe that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father which he gives to Jesus, and in turn Jesus gives to believers. It is the power and influence of God. (Also I find it interesting that you called it and "it")
The Father is the Only True God, Yahweh, Creator, Almighty, etc. He is called the Father because we are His children. Adam was son of God, and we are sons of Adam. Jesus is the new Adam, creating a new humanity, making the title of Father much more important.
We don't believe in multiple prosopons or hypostases or persons or whatever word you want to use in God.
We have plenty of arguments, but it's clear you've spent absolutely no time to learn the arguments. So before you criticize us, learn what we actually believe.
The cult members gather to show off their costumes and debate which beliefs they will sell to their pious congregations.
So glad my brain awakened 50 years ago and began to see the contradictions in holy scripture.
Jesus Christ said,,make Disciples!!!! O how we need Mature Fathers Mothers, and growing in the Faith from so many wonderful resorses that the Holy Spirit has given to the church. Love to All.
Matthew 26:19 makes it crystal clear: “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Jesus could’ve simply said to baptise them in the name of Elohim, but He chose to make the distinction to his disciples one last time….it seemed to have worked as when the Holy Spirit came upon them, they never doubted again!
Matthew 28:19 mentions the Father, Son and holy spirit in the same verse, but it does not say that they exist in one divine essence as the Trinity doctrine says. It does not say that they are three persons in one God, all co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial. The doctrine of the Trinity as taught in churches is not stated anywhere in the Bible.
What is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? I have never heard that name. God's name is Jehovah (YHWH), the son's name is Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father.
This does not say anything about the Trinity.
@@cariboubearmalachy1174 That is because the trinity does not exist. The trinity was conjured-up in the imaginations of pagan catholic priests.
@@MichaelTheophilus906 "Pagan Catholic priests". Sure, man. 😆
The CONCEPT of the Trinity was from the beginning, before the bible was created. The Dogma of the Trinity was during the council of Nicaea. Christ during His lifetime was talking of The Father and Him being ONE in many instances and the Holy Spirit (The spirit of God) was mentioned many times . The Father , the Son who is the Word of the Father ,and the Holy Spirit were all three mentioned many times during the Lifetime of Christ. To give a name to that, came later. The Council of nicea had to be called in order to put this straight once and for all because of the rise of Arianism which was trying to destroy the church.
Councils were always called to put something straight which was already believed and settled .
@@Ayybee101 Artemis (Diana) was a goddess amongst the thousands of goddesses which the pagan world had. These goddesses were manmade inventions. Artemis is the goddess of wild animals, the hunt, vegetation, chastity and childbirth. The pagans have a god or goddess (male and female) for every single thing. The Romans (pagans) identified her with Diana. Arthemis was the daughter of Zeus and Leto (also 2 manmade invented gods) and she was the twin sister of Apollo. Also a manmade god.
How in the world can you even describe her as a Trinity ? First of all she is not GOD who revealed Himself to Humanity which HE CREATED. He does not procreate , he is not male or female for the simple reason that if you are Spirit , you do not procreate. Gender is for procreation nothing more. Christ who is called The SON of God is not a biological Son. He is the WORD of God , incarnated into the flesh, the physical world which God created himself. All those other manmade gods , since they were manmade (invented in other words) never created anything.
God is not like the gods who marry and divorce, have sisters and brothers, make war against other gods . They even die and get killed.
There is so much nonsensical stuff going around , don't believe everything you read just because you want it to be true. The devil is having a party because he can indoctrinate so many people with his lies.
@@ilonkastille2993
Anti-trinitarians are a dividing spirit not of God. The triune nature of the Godhead can be found throughout the OT and in the Jewish passover seder.
Yes the dividing spirit is Satan . He wants us away from God and he is the father of lies.
@@BaronBoar which "sentiment" are you referring about?
@@BaronBoar it was from the beginning . The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs His Apostles:” Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
The parallelism of the Father, son and Holy Spirit is not unique to Matthews’s gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today- that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are Three divine persons ( not beings) who are ONE divine Being. God.
Arianism which was causing a lot of harm , made it necessary to call for a Council in order to make it a doctrine and that was at Nicea in the fourth century.
According to Tertullian (father of trinitarianism) in his writings "AGAINST PRAXEAS" (c.200AD), the oneness belief was still what the majority of Christians believed.
language is NOT a barrier if you’ve known the doctrine. These aren’t kids learning to speak and not know words.. these are grown as men who are trying to fit a belief based on scriptures that contradict their own teaching but they want to still put it together….
There is ONLY ONE GOD! HE has NO partners!
HIS sovereignty over all!
FOR him is all gratitude!
HIS power DOMINATES ALL.
No eye has seen HIM,
HE is Eternal and Self Sufficient.
He Depends on No one.
He is not physical , never has been!
GOD is one &only one not Subdivided into 3 parts call it 3 persons ,,,,JESUS is just human being not a god nor a son of GOD just one of Great prophets not greater than Abraham nor Moses. . . . . .
@@mustafaisa2096 Then ice, liquid water and steam are not H2O! They are three different substances!!!
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
John 1:1, 3 ESV
The Word is reference to Jesus Christ
@@russelaitkenhead Seems rather like conjecture to me, since there are quite a few other parts in John that would contradict this conclusion.
@@robertd9965 Which other verses in John’s gospel seem to contradict this?
See also Hebrews 1:2 “but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.”
(ESV)
Wouldn’t Ignatius be presenting a primitive binitarian view rather than a trinitarian view? It’s all non biblical but the focus on the Son and Father in this video presentation is saying it’s trinity but evidence is binitarian
Factz
Just anything to deny trinity. My goodness ya are demonized
@@FlockOfYahwehI hear your insult but I’m hoping you have more substance than that. Are you saying that this video was using content about the trinity? To me it seemed more binitarian. If you disagree provide substance not insults.
Also it’s not that I’m a binitarian myself because the bible reveals a Unitarian God, not a trinity. John 17:3, 1 Cor 8:6
@@johnniemack2440 exactly. I was spot on. The Holy Spirit is also God or else Peter woulda insinuated he himself is God, which he clearly didn’t mean.
@@johnniemack2440 exactly. I was spot on. The Holy Spirit is also God or else Peter woulda insinuated he himself is God, which he clearly didn’t mean.
“No man has beheld G-d at any time”-John the Disciples words, not mine!
You quote both Ignatius and Athanasius who's writing clearly proclaim that Jesus is the father in the flesh, that as the Bible clearly states, the fullness of the God head dwelled bodily in Christ, then you turn around and preach Arianism which is the trinity as you know it. You teach the heresy they were fighting
" men have gone to opposite extremes in the discussion of the trinity. Some have made Christ a mere man....others.....have made him the 'God and Father' of himself....
I would simply advise all that love our Lord and saviour, Jesus, Christ, to believe all that the bible says of him, and no more. Then you will have the truth, and not occupy either of these extremes".
Roswell. F. Cottrell, review and herald, july 06, 1869, p.11.1.
1 cor 8 v 6❤
I really like your videos but please open your heart and make a good research about the Trinity it’s 100% Unbiblical Shalom!
See this video: ruclips.net/video/hQF2oI-LJiU/видео.html
Non-Christians: "[Biblical Doctrine] has no evidence!!1!1"
This man: *Gives evidence*
Non-Christians: ". . . Okay but deez lies!!! We truth, may you know the truth!!1 We are not wrong at all1!!1"
Also Non-Christians: *No evidence or debunked "evidence", conspiracy theories that blaspheme God.*
May you get to know God of Salvation (Jesus) The Saviour (Christ)
if u look at clement of rome which is an early church father. (he’s even mentioned in the bible and got taught under paul) the trinity is true
And the holly spirit ?
That's just at christmas
I am glad I have the Holy Spirit within me and that I know Jesus Christ personally, fully God, fully man, son of the almighty Father. I may come back to this site when I have more time and comment further. Praise to God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
JESUS CHRIST SAVES!
Dear friend, have you been saved?
If you are like most people in the world today,
you would probably say yes, but there are still
doubts in your mind.
What does the Holy Bible say about salvation?
Jesus said, “Verily verily, I say unto thee, except
a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he
cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John
3:5)
How can we be born of water and of the Spirit?
Peter preached, “Repent, and be baptized every
one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the
remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of
the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and
to your children, and to all that are afar off, even
as many as the Lord our God shall call”
(Acts 2:38,39)
The problem is, that the churches of today (Catholic
and Protestant alike) do not preach this
gospel, as the apostles of Jesus Christ preached it.
And the Bible says,
“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the
doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in
the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and
the Son.” Period. (2 John 1:9)
Who shall we believe, then? The churches, or the
word of God? Jesus Christ is coming soon to judge
the world in righteousness. Are you sure that you’re
ready?
Let’s go back to the BIBLE!
To see and hear teachings according to the truth of
the Holy Bible, visit:
WWW.SWORDOFTHEVALIANT.COM
RUclips: TheWordprophet
The Bible has been teaching the Holy Trinity ever since the beginning. It may not have the literal word "Trinity" in it (the one coined by the forefathers), but the evidence of the 3 personalities of God is everywhere in the Bible, even from the Old Testament.
Peace and Blessings!
I disagree, as the OT is Jewish & I’m not aware of such a poorly defined concept in Jewish thought,
Are you ?
@@Folkstone1957 If you're willing, kindly give your insights regarding the following:
1. The word for God in Hebrew is ELOHIM. A grammatically plural in form and yet often used with a singular meaning. Why did Moses or the Hebrews use ELOHIM instead of ELOAH (it's singular form) if this has no special meaning? ELOAH appears 70 times in Tanakh but why still used ELOHIM to refer to God?
2. In Genesis 1:26, When God said "Let Us make mankind in Our image, according to Our likeness;", who was He talking to? that has the same creative power (e.g. co-creator) as He does and has the same image and likeness as He is?... Surely, not the Angels for angels don't have creative power as God does and don't have the same likeness and image of God for they have wings, some have many eyes.
3. In Isaiah 6:3, Why would the angels surrounding God praise Him as being "holy, holy, holy." Why the threefold repetition? Why not 1 or 4?
Peace and Blessings!
The best statement in the video: the concept was not defined berore well after the 3rd century. Meaning = it is human development. Every clear doctrine is clearly revealed and held in the bible. The Trinity requieres mental gymnastics it is not held in the ole testament and only inferred in the new testament. It is human conjecture
You're confusing a the naming of a particular idea with the teaching of a particular idea. The Trinity did not have it's name doctrinal name proper until the Cappadocian Fathers. However, the recognition of the co-equal, co-eternal nature of the Father, Son and Spirit as the one God (YHWH) is taught in scripture and was also taught in the early Church: ruclips.net/video/hQF2oI-LJiU/видео.html
@@AChristianGuy The bible clearly states 1 Cor 8:6 there is but one God, the father. Paul, when using a similar formula to mathew 28:19 lists: God, christ and the Spirit. Identifying the father as God. Christ sits at the right hand of God (is he sitting at the right hand of himself?). The terminology required to conceptualize the trinity is not early in church history. Moreover, the spirit Of god is his personal presence, or are there any other biblical examples in which the spirit is separate from the person? (marys spirit rejoiced, so we conclude marys spirit is separate from mary? Nonsense) 1 cor 2:11 the spirit of god is a different person from god just as your spirit is a different person form you, now, is your spirit different from you? NO! Therefore Gods spirit is not different from himself, it has personal attributes because it belongs to a person. and it is not my argument, it is pauls in 1 cor 2. In contrary to the plain and clear texts i have given, trinitarian texts always need to make an implicit reference, or extrapolate a personality from an attribute. If the personhood of the HS is as important (or even biblical) why is it not clearly stated. We have to take the bible as it reads and not assume things into the text.
@@carlosandresmejiagomez1112 The angel/messenger of the lord also clearly states that HE IS GOD in the bible in Genesis 22: "Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from ME your son". He is talking in first person, referring to himself of god. Yet he is the angel of the lord and not god, the father.
Now what, how else are you going to explain that without the trinity?
Easy, just take the Bible as it reads. The Angel of the Lord to my understanding is the Son of God. The same Michael (The one like god). Just as a son you have is human because you are human, Jesus is God by inheritance: hebrews 1 he inherited the name, the father gave him to have life in himself (Jhon 5:26), He was LIKE God Philip 2:6-11 (Why Like god and not god?). After his resurrection and being glorified he sits at the right hand of god. God taught this through creating Adam and Eve Thats why He said lets make man in our image: He made 2 people, not 3. In fact adam was created first, Eve was taken our from adam, and She inherited Adams name (Gen 5:2). Just like Jesus was beggotten from the father (Proverbs 8:22-30, Micah 5:2) and inherited his name. The Father is the ine true God of the Bible, and His Son, his ONLY BEGGOTTEN SON, Jesus is God by birth, It is his wright, the brightness of his glory, given for God to us, By God the father. God is a Person (he has bodily parts and we were made in his image) once we understand that principle, the divinity of christ is based on his sonship.
@@carlosandresmejiagomez1112 that is one hell of a conspiracy theory when the obvious reading is that the angel simply refers to himself as god. You're claiming Jesus is called god while not being god, do you not realize how absurd that is?
❤❤ The African church Fathers fought against heresy but many people are not aware. The Roman empire was persecuting Africans, Asian and European Christians. Its a fascinating history. It's all ours. Our history through the Fathers is wonderful. As Protestants we need to recognize our story before Martin Luther.
It doesn't appear that Jesus and the apostles taught this and, in fact, warned of new deceptive teachings cropping up. Still, I realize I am an ignorant sinner and I hope God will teach me (and others) what I need to know.
Whats with the nontrinitarians in the comments? Your far from Christian. The trinity is indirectly shown many times in the scriptures.
yes , amen
@@tongakhan230 Well yes , this gets very tiresome , but the concept of the Trinity was already understood before the second century .
@@tongakhan230 it was in the Old Testament, as with anything the more time that passes the better something is interpreted.
@@tongakhan230 JESUS WAS BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD , I’m sure you know all the verses that tell us that , so I won’t list them all , but here are 2
John17:5
John 1:1
John tells us that Jesus is Ton theos , the same essence as Ho theos , the Father
John tells us that Jesus is The Creator of the universe
John was empowered by The Holy Spirit with total recall of all the words and events of his time with Jesus
Jesus is the living Word that existed before anything existed And he BECAME flesh
This is about Jesus , not The Father Colossians Ch 1 : 15 "The Son is the exact image of the Invisible God , the first born over a ll creation for in him all things were created , things visible and invisible............17 He is before all things and by him all things hold together . "
Do you comprehend what this is saying ? Jesus is God . Yes he was a Jew , yes he was a man , made of a woman , not a man and a woman , The Holy Spirit was his father . Have you ever thought about His DNA , RNA ? 26 from your Father , 26 from your Mom @@tongakhan230
Jesus did not even KNOW what a trinity is supposed to be!
1. The four gospels definitely disclose ONLY ONE "Father - Son" relatioship.
As concerns the Trinity, the most qualified Person to give information is Jesus, who dozens of times reiterates to be ONLY WITH THE FATHER! Jesus is NEVER with TWO divine Persons, nor a SECOND relationship with an alleged third divine person of a trinity exists. Thus there is no doubt that neither a THIRD divine person, nor a trinity exists.
2. Jesus sometimes even EXPLICITLY states to be only with the Father: "I am not ALONE because the Father is with me" i.e. just Father and Son.
3. Jesus states that the Father is a spirit "God is a spirit" (Jn. 4:23,24)
4. Thus Jesus is ONLY with the FATHER WHO IS A SPIRIT.
5. This means that only TWO blasphemies exist: either 1. against the Son or 2. against the "Father who is a spirit"
6. Those TWO blasphemies were discussed by Jesus: blasphemy against the "Father who is a spirit" (called "Holy Spirit" by Jesus") will not forgiven, neither in this world, nor in the future world.
7. To recap, ONLY ONE (divine) SPIRIT exists: He is the Father.
ruclips.net/video/hQF2oI-LJiU/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/dBzM46Jv-LM/видео.html
@@AChristianGuy
The Trinity is just a CONVENTIONAL doctrine, an invention of the councils of the fourth century. It has nothing to do with reality.
Not bad reasoning, but no.
The holy spirit is not the father himself just a power he uses to accomplish his will.
@@bobbycecere1037
Yes, it's like that, but the way of thinking 2000 years ago was very different and Jesus had to somehow be in agreement with that way of thinking. "Remote communication" was unknown, in its place you could talk of a spirit of the missing person being present next to you. This is what happens with God.
God is AWAY, this is the reason why no one has ever seen him ("No man has seen God at any time"). INVISIBILITY has nothing to do with that! ONLY THE SON saw the Father. That is, God is ABSENT, He is not here, He is AWAY in a different (temporal) dimension from ours ("before the foundation of the world, (Jn. 17, 24-26)"). However, even though absent "the world has not known you", the almighty God is able to hear and respond to us from that distant dimension and to PERFORM ACTIONS HERE. That is to say, God is able to be here in practice, but only VIRTUALLY since actually NOBODY is present. You could thus say that God is "in a spirit form" among us, He is the "Spirit of God" AKA "Holy Spirit". This is fully confirmed by Jesus "God is a Spirit." God therefore has a dual presence: the 1. "Spirit of God" is HERE, who is a kind of "EXTENSION" of 2. the FATHER who is DISTANT from us. The Father can thus SEND HIS EXTENSION - his Spirit - inside selected persons. .Of course everything is decided only by the distant Father.
@@claudiozanella256
Well yes, scripture indicates that the god of the Hebrews IS in another dimension called heaven. But so is every other Spirit creature. He's definitely not alone. Christ must have been speaking metaphorically when he said only he has seen the father. Because we know that's not true. Satan has seen the father when he entered in among the Angelic choirs to discuss Job. So the angels have also "seen him"
There is essentially only 1 or 2 verses that push the trinity. Everything else can easily be explained by Jesus being the son of God and existing before time and the holy spirit simply being the spirit of God existing before time.
Can someone explain how Jesus can properly be God's Son if he's only playing the "role" of son? This is a serious, serious issue. He's either a true son, or he's not. Please someone help me here
Some like Eve are taught by another spirit to doubt and disobey while some experirnce through Trinity entering into Christ, drowning in the Spirit in the knowledge of the ever joyful and life guving I am . Spend your time on the open minded. Not the calloused in heart
Funny that God would not clearly state such an allegedly important doctrine in His Word. It took centuries of imperfect men to sub out the language of that doctrine and the further in time from the apostles you get the more complex the thought. Kinda like it was all from the thoughts of man alone.
Ya and I know these mere men are nothing but liars. The apostle who were with Jesus didn't even know the person they were with was God almighty and Jesus if this was true and so important, didn't even mention it to them so we can all keep it and remember it. Just bunch of liars. I believe in God the one true God who is ONE. the one who doesn't have some other people with him. Jesus is his name
The faith was practiced without the expressions needed to be so secular explained. Heresies were the reason the doctrines needed to be declared and the doctrines established.
If you don't believe God actually has a Son, you are still in your sins, when you say Jesus always existed then you are saying you don't actually believe God has a son.
Ill take st. Ignatius' word for it over all the modern keyboard warrior 'theologians' going at it in the comment sections. After all he was a student of st. John, the beloved. Came straight from the source. And he believed in his faith so strongly that he willingly was martyred for it.
There were church traditions and teachings such as these before the bible.was even complied as a book that someone could own and speculate over. Once you know the original teachings then read the Gospels and the writings of the apostles and their students it all falls right into place. I literally dont see how modernist bible interpreters can over complicate it as much based on their own opinion and shut it down the way they do. It's all there clear as day. People acting like these church traditions and teachings didn't exist or something, when they actually predated the release of the Bible. Its important not to be narrow minded about this
Ah....i see, but im interested in comments section😂 i see this is most controversial argument, but mostly on the WEST. Eastern churches has more than 2k copies about their dogma and stored in their library, but not ALL of them ofc. Did west know about a book called DIDACHE? It was written about earliest century and they used "Father, son, and holy spirit in a simple way before council on nicene that makes a full explaination way"
1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Amen to those words from Ignatius about every law of wickedness vanished away that is a fulfilling and bringing to pass of what God speaks of in 1 John 3:8.
Jesus said “I must go so that those that believe and put their trust in me will receive the Holy Spirit from above”. This is the gift from the Father and comes only through the Son.
The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one person, not three persons as Nicean Romanism would want people to believe! You can't a person without a personality, my people!!!
See? How can we have a concept that blood spilling gives assurance of salvation? What are we being saved from? Reality is our physical experience on earth , not some illusive deity somewhere in space
Yes, the Didache In the late first century mentions the Trinity and instructs to baptize in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit.
Hardly anyone knew about the trinity until well AFTER the Council of Nicea.
Tertullian 155-220 coined the phrase. Well BEFORE the council of Nicea.
You should look at Sean Finnegan's The Trinity Before Nicea, and respond to it.
Very good ministry. Upload more videos. Whether one agrees or not trinity was true, is and will be true. Before its named it was true. Father, son and Holy Spirit are true. ☦️☦️
What does your inner law of conscience tell you
As a child did you think of 3 beings or only 1 being
Before indoctrination , I only understood that there is only 1 god and Jesus is him
I was just about to write almost exactly that comment - thank you!
Yes, exactly: one should read the Bible with an open mind and an open heart, not with preconceived notions and concepts that only blur understanding and make a rational exercise out of it.
the doctrine of the trinity is clearly revealed in the new testament. it is a mystery understood by the word and the spirit, and cannot be defined by the words of man. "all authority in heaven and on earth is given to me....go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy spirit"
Trinity did not just suddenly appear at Nicaea. What a ridiculous notion! That's not how doctrine comes about.
The Bible says that Jesus is the son of God. It doesn’t say that Jesus is anybody’s god.. ignatius was tripping
I only counted 2 in the video, not a 3. A twoitty
Almost 300 yrs after the death of Jesus, Galatians 1:8-9 but even if we, or an angel from heaven , preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Written 55-57 ad. Saving Gospel was already known. Who cares what the cappadocean fathers say 300 yrs later, want to know Gospel read acts. But we prefer something that came about hundreds of years later
I am a trinitarian.
But i don't pretend it was a dotrine held by Jesus or the Apostles....cause, well, i believe in being honest about what the bible and extrabiblical sources say.
I remember asking a Biblical archeologist why do people argue with Ken Ham about Biology and Nature, when they could easily defeat him with Biblical archeology. The Biblical archeologist said, "No Biblical scholar takes Ken Ham seriously; He's an idiot!" The majority at Nicea did not agree with the idea of trinitarianism. There was not a majority on either side and there was a huge group of undecideds, which, knowing how things work in real life, they were probably given some promises by the patriarch of Rome in back room deals. The idea of the trinity probably originated in Rome or Greece. The title "Son of God" was supposedly given to Hebrew Kings in ancient times and in Jesus's time did not mean literally. It just meant you were a prophet of the messiah. Read Evan Moffic's What Every Christian Needs to Know About the Jewishness of Jesus. Watch Bart Ehrman videos on RUclips, James Tabor, Religion For Breakfast and many scholars through Myth Vision.
I’m going to disagree, they may not have used the word, Trinity, but God in three persons existed in God‘s word even in the Old Testament before the Messiah was even born. The Trinity existed in the Old Testament. The word Trinity may not have been used to describe God, and the nature of God until then, but God in three persons has always existed and has always been in God‘s word even in Old Testament scriptures, Jesus was the fulfillment of these prophecies and God‘s word but he’s always existed Godfather, the son and the spirit or what we now call the Trinity, but it’s always existed Come the language may have changed, but the premise has been the same from the beginning and existed even before creation because it is God. Just because some in the church may have gotten it wrong before then doesn’t mean it didn’t exist until then, and the trinity has always been taught. It is part of Judaism before Christianity modern who deny their Messiah, and these parts of God‘s word may tell you different. It was always there and it’s still there, John summed it up pretty well in the beginning. There was the word and the word was with him, Jesus is the word and existed during the creation and before that and that is God‘s nature. Man just doesn’t always get it because they tried for themselves on God and think that God is just like a human being, bound by the same constraints that they are, and try to hold him to position of being within the same physical confines as they are as a human body. If you read your Bible, it’s in everything even an atom how we were created in his image, flash spirit, and soul. You have to be careful with this because when you talk about the language, somebody uses the video almost implies that this is just something that somebody made up a few hundred years later or created that didn’t exist before. This is what the apostles and Jesus himself taught this is what Judaism taught. It is the nature of God and always has been, they just give it a modern translation until that time but it’s not a new concept. It’s not something that was created. Then that was just when they started using this specific word. If you turned 28 years old and got a job as a police officer and I called you officer that doesn’t mean you started to exist on that day you existed for 28 years before that that’s just the word we use to describe you at some point, and if they change that to constable 12 years and people start calling you constable that doesn’t mean you weren’t doing the same thing before that the word was just changed. The Trinity has always existed. It’s not a theological concept that somebody made up. It is the nature of God and reality.
I go to St. Ignatius Orthodox Christian Church in Arizona. Become Orthodox Christian my brothers and sisters!
how could have be one god if the son is distinct from the father
that is clearly saying that two persons are not one but two.
if the basis of trinity is being the nature or essence of god...we can also say that there is only one man on earth though we are billions on the basis of nature and essence
that is human.
Hinduism believes that God became man as Rama, Krishna, even Buddha, also he became a Fish, a boar and Tortoise. There is Hindu Trinity as well, who are 3 but still one, each performing a different and distinct function. Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Sustainer and Mahesh Shiva the Destroyer. Hinduism and Christianity believe in a Trinity 3 parts of God.
People believed in the Trinity back in 3000 BCE (Canaanite polytheism, of which eventually led to Yahwism, judaism, and then Christianity.) They just called it "the tripartite" back then.
God The Father, Lord Anu. God The son, Lord Enki. And God the Holy Spirit, High Lord Enlil.
High Lord Enlil ruled over Heaven in the Golden City built upon the Red Stone, as he hovers over all things. Lord Anu ruled over the Deep Void of the sky from within the Silver City. And Lord Enki ruled over the Earth in the city of steel and Earth.
Acts 20:
25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Colossians 2
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204&version=KJV
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2043&version=KJV
Thankfully we should follow God/his word and not men's ideas 🙏
John did he believed the father the word and the Holy Ghost first John chapter 5
That first was inserted and not even in the copy.
since people cant realy describe adequatly explain the trinity .. for Christs sakes i just go to 1 John ch 5 vs 7 Three that bear record in heaven, the father the word and the holy ghost, and these three are one.. save my self time make it simple thye did it for us already ...that should be good enough... Thank God oh thats from King James bible... some of the other versions dont say it ....
I can't adequately explain aliens or unicorns either... Why do you think that is? They don't exist.
You should do a little research into 1 John 5:7... aka: Johannine Comma. It doesn't exist in any Greek manuscript, until well over a thousand years after Jesus. It first appears as a marginal note over 700 years after Jesus, then is found in the actual text in later manuscripts.
In short... That verse was inserted later, much later.
It was pretty sloppy. In Greek, every time the ' spirit' is mentioned, it is associated with feminine names: spirit of Alethea; spirit of Sophia; ... Irene, Zoe, ... There is quite a few. It's quite hilarious that when Christians pray for truth and wisdom they pray to a male.
People, people, read the gospels, the Words of Christ, all the answers are there we nead just to obey.
THE SPIRIT HOVERED OVER THE FACE OF THE DEEP. I’m pretty sure that the Holy Spirit was accepted as God long before Christ became flesh. Whether they knew what it meant they certainly agreed to it. The only question is what does it mean. And to me it’s like well, multidimensional distinct aspects of God. As far as the full understanding that I do not have. The idea this is outside the realm of possibility is silly though. Or that it has no logic to it. Also silly.
There was NOT one mention of the Holy Spirit….All I heard was 2 gods…no trinity…only a duoty 😂
It's literally in the Bible.
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" - Matt 28:19
The word "Trinity", is simply a label for the very clear triune formula that Jesus used to describe the personage of God.
That passage doesn't prove trinitarianism as a doctrine.
@@langreeves6419 In context of the rest of scripture, yes it does. To pretend that this passage exists on its own, separate and apart from all the rest of scripture, and that no doctrine can be formed from the whole deposit of scripture, is itself an incoherent doctrine.
Either the trinity is true, and this passage is clearly depicting the trinity, or the Bible is incoherent. Pick whichever position you'd like to take on that, but it's one or the other.
@@KFish-bw1om You want context lol, how about this;
The sovereign God of co-equal parts couldn't do nothing by himself, only by the will of himself he could (John 5:30)
Then God impregnated a woman, with himself so that he could be born as himself in the flesh, to become part of his own creation and give further praise to himself (John 11:14, Mt 11:25)
God then got baptised and he descended himself
from heaven & himself, like a dove, and he himself spoke to himself, and declared himself his son the beloved
(Matt 3:16-17)
God enjoyed talking to himself and strengthening himself because he loves himself
(John 14:31, Lu 22:43)
Therefore God prayed to himself and glorified himself repeatedly
(Lu 22:42, John 12:28)
The sovereign God of co-equal parts himself proclaim, how he himself is greater than himself
(John 14:28)
God says that nobody has seen him but himself
(John 6:46)
- And then whomever has seen him, has then seen God himself
(John 14:9)
God explains how he had not come to practice
his own will but rather that of himself
(John 6:38)
The sovereign all knowing God explains that no one, not even he himself knows the day nor the hour, but that only he himself does
(Mt 24:36)
God allowed his angel satan to tempt him
so that he could prove to himself that he could not sin against himself
(Jas 1:13-15)
God wanted to be more of himself than just three in one of himself (John 10:30)
(1 Jn 5:7 johannine comma KJV) so he added more of himself ;
"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one of us: that the world may believe that thou has sent me"
(John 17:21)
The sovereign God says that he himself will go to himself, his God in heaven
(John 20:17)
Later, God cried out to himself , if he had forsaken himself in his sacrifice to himself, by proving his love for mankind (himself)
to himself
(Mt 27:46)
While dead, God resurrected himself so he could exhalt himself to the right hand of himself above himself so that he could once more be his sovereign self
(Psa 110:1, John 17:5, Rev 3:12)
With satans forces defeated, God would turn his kingdom over to himself so that all things would become everything to himself;
"24 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.
28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (1 Cor 15:24,28)
God needed to do all of this for himself to prove to everyone that the statement he made about himself, that he is the one and only true God, means that he had to correct the inspired statement saying;
- "Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Yahweh our God is one Yahweh," 30 and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
(Mark 12:29,30) (Deu 6:4)
That's 17 oxymorons of the trinity.
What you trinitarians have left is; John 1:1, John 8:58, & Gen 19:24
All three which can easily be dismantled.
John 1:1 -
Koine greek only has definite articles, not indefinite articles.
There's another language just as old that does.
Sahidic coptic 200 Ad;
ϨΝ ΤЄϨΟΥЄΙΤЄ ΝЄϤϢΟΟΠ ΝϬΙ ΠϢΑϪЄ ΑΥШ ΠϢΑϪЄ ΝЄϤϢΟΟΠ ΝΝΑϨΡΜ ΠΝΟΥΤЄ ΑΥШ ΝЄΥΝΟΥΤΕ ΠЄ ΠϢΑϪЄ
ΠΝΟΥΤЄ (definite article) God
ΝЄΥΝΟΥΤΕ (indefinite article) a god
John 1:1c And a god was the word.
John 8:58
About Jesus saying "I am"
[ἐγώ εἰμι, ego eimi] or [אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה , ehyeh]
Besides Jesus it was in hebrew said by;
Jephthah (Jdg 11:9), Ruth (Ruth 2:13), David (1 Sam 18:18), Jonathan, (1 Sam 23:17),Hushai (2 Sam 16:18), Job (Job 12:4) and many others use it to refer to themselves.
Then in greek said by;
Judas (Matt 26:25), Gabriel (Luke 1:19), the blind man (John 9:9), Peter (Acts 10:21) and Paul (Acts 22:3, 26:29, Rom 11:13, 1 Tim 1:15), always to refer to themselves. This matches the use in Greek outside the NT also.
The Septuagint uses “I am” (ἐγώ εἰμι) in very normal ways. God uses the phrase often, but so does Jacob (Gen 27:32), Deborah (Jdg 5:3), Gideon (Jdg 6:15) and others.
This means that the use of those words does not refer to sovereignty.
ἐγώ εἰμι, ego eimi] or [אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה , ehyeh] ≠ יהוה (YHWH)
About Gen 19:24 and the two YHWH's.
Jacob is said to have wrestled with God, yet it was an angelic
individual working alongside the holy spirit of God, not literally God himself. It means that God can influence whatever outcome he desires, and can thus always take credit for the work of his angels. (Gen 32:28, Hos 12:3-5)
Now, the holy spirit also guided and spoke through the three angels whom took part in the destruction of Sodom & gommorah. So it can be said that Yahweh was in two places at once. Even making an argument for it being God himself, one would also have to remember that a trait of true sovereignty is Omni-presence. God being able to be in more than one place at a time, does not make him a compound unity. It is clearly stated as the very first & uttermost command;
Shema yisrael, Yahweh eloheinu Yahweh echad
Deu 6:4
As a very last desperate atempt at an argument you will claim that Echad can mean a compound unity, but that is false as that already exist in another word [Yachad].
Gen 42:11 "We are all sons of one man [ish echad]."
Ps 133:1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is For brethren to dwell together in unity [gam yachad]!
That is the correct way of using those hebrew words.
The closest [echad] can be to a unity, is a 'one in purpose', like the marriage covenant in Gen 2:24, or one in pupose like in John 17:21
Now tell me again how the trinity makes sense in the bible lol.
Here is whom Jesus actually is;
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation
the firstborn of all creation - πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως. This is a partitive genitive, thus, it teaches that the first-born is OF creation, that he is a part of, or a member of, the group called creation. A subordinate partitive would have the word 'over' rather than 'of' in the text, but it doesn't.
So Jesus is the firstborn creature, and along with the sovereign father he created everything else in creation.
In this Arius was correct and the church wrong.
@@maciiol2 I never asked you for "context", because I don't care what perverted attempt to exegete scripture gave you the false gospel you're preaching. Even Satan quotes scripture, and tries to set it against itself just as you do. Thus, I'm not going to waste my time reading any of your worthless vomit, because nothing you say is relevant. You've already proven your nature by denying the clear teaching of scripture, and pushing a doctrine of demons that denies the revealed nature of God.
@@KFish-bw1om Your loss lol.
I address your pity arguments with the ancient languages themselves.
John 1:1, John 8:58 and many many others. You've got nothing but ad hominem. Weak
There are some similar stories in mythology, virgin births etc. Three-pronged God head is a tough sell but did get enough votes to pass.
nobody denies the divinity of Jesus, neither the divinity of the holy angels, it does not prove any triune God, since they are all part of the creation, the son being the first one made ; besides the holy spirit cannot be proved to be a person without throwing away metaphorical speech from a book full of metaphores. Jehovah is one alone.
AMIN
1:02 is a depiction of modalism, not trinitarianism
Modalism teaches that the Father, Son & Spirit are the same person. Trinitarianism teaches that the Father, Son & Spirit are distinct Persons with a common nature or essence (God).
@@AChristianGuy Modalism actually teaches that there is one person of God manifested into three different modes at different times, however, each mode is still distinct from another mode making it real close to what many call the Trinity. In fact, the Trinity diagram popularly used could be described as simultaneous modalism. However one spins it, that diagram does portray modalism.
I do not know of a sect that actually teaches modalism.
@@StripedCheeseBread Yeah... the diagram should've been more different.
The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are three seperate persons, with links showing that they are not each other... however all three are linked to the middle big circle which says that He is the one God, one nature. One God, all eternal.
Where is the Holy Spirit? Sounds more Binitarian to me.
The triune God can be found in the OT and In the Passover seder.
John 14:28 - "I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."
How does that fit with the trinity if they're all supposed to be equal?