Which TT models SHOULD Hornby Make? | Sam's 5 Year Plan
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- Опубликовано: 11 июл 2024
- There's been a lot of talk about Hornby's choice of models in their TT scale, so here are some of my thoughts on it!
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0:00 Intro
2:18 Hornby's Strategy
4:04 My Strategy
5:46 Year 1
11:56 Year 2
16:24 Year 3
21:09 Year 4
25:02 Year 5
27:54 The Future 
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Hello Sam,
Some interesting ideas but I think there are considerations you have missed.
Hornby were looking to build a new market and attract a new type of customer. This was the driving factor in the models they announced first. I suspect they find, as we do, that only a relatively small sector of the market care about distinct eras or areas. Many are happy to run their Flying Scotsman on a rake of Mk3 coaches or put lots of colourful private owner wagons behind a Class 66. Like you, they just like model trains. So they'll buy Flying Scotsman *and* a HST.
But let's accept you have launched a range of LNER TT:120 models in Year 1. To make money your models will need to sell through in relatively short order. But by focussing on LNER you are immediately limiting your potential pool of customers, and on top of that you're asking them to commit to four locos and rakes of coaches and wagons in year 1. This would be a lot of money for most of us. Our experience is that customers appreciate gaps in the schedule so they can save.
Also, Hornby do not operate in a vacuum. Following your plan, and not announcing a Class 66 until year whenever, would enable a rival to jump in and produce it. The same goes for the HST, Class 37, Mk2 + Mk3 coaches and the HAA coal wagon. I am surprised they did a Class 50 ahead of a 47 or 37, but this was probably because they'd already produced a OO model relatively recently and had the research package available.
You have given yourself four locos per year. Honestly, I would be surprised if any model company could manage this and maintain a decent schedule of OO releases too. Frankly, I am amazed they have achieved what they have.
Personally I think Hornby have done really well here; the range is balanced, with something for everyone, and the products are good. This is what has prompted my company, Revolution Trains, to offer our first product in TT:120 - a modern box wagon we have already done in N and OO to go with the upcoming Class 66.
Ben Ando, Revolution Trains.
Very cool to get the opinion of a rival manufacturer involved, thanks for taking the time. Would you say there is a general view within the industry that Hornby have done really well with TT 1:120? I see a lot of grumbling on forums but usually dismiss most of it as being typical pensioners with 0 perspective and a painfully narrow view of the world doing their thing, but it's still nice to hear from you that Revolution Trains have decided to get involved because you've been impressed by Hornby!
I think I'd start with modern image, for the simple reason that TT:120 is an established scale in Europe, and with the Channel Tunnel, there's a lot of potential for British modellers to take advantage of already-existing rolling stock and for Hornby to sell models overseas. For instance, they could sell a Eurostar train as part of the Hornby range in Britain and the Jouef range in France.
Agree that modern may have been the ideal starting point Jago. As things stand the range is very similar to what you can get in OO, but just smaller and with no offerings from other manufacturers.
Hi Sam,
A fun video, but personally I disagree with some of your choices and think Hornby's make more sense. They have clearly been chosen for the following reasons:
1) They picked their biggest sellers in OO.
2) Models where one tooling covers a range of eras and liveries.
3) Large models since the extra room makes it easier to design and quicker to produce in TT.
4) Models which sell well as part of a set.
With the above in mind all Hornby's choices make perfect sense. Many of your choices make more sense in a second or third phase, NOT the initial launch. And in fact many of the models you suggest are in the pipeline for phases 3 and 4.
A1/A3s and A4s HAVE to be the first choice, followed by HSTs. 08s are the perfect choice for a first shunter. Coronations also sell very well. The class 66 makes sense as they open up the European TT market and again are big and have a huge range of liveries.
Goods engines don't sell as well and don't tend to have a good range of liveries mainly black, plus perhaps BR green and one other.
Consequently choosing a goods engine in the first wave is poor strategy. Much better in the second wave with the Black 5 being the obvious choice as everyone loves them. Also an 08 goods set which I suspect may appear soon.
One thing I would have changed was I'd have picked the class 37 as my first diesel as again they are very popular, cover many eras and liveries including steam with the class 47 next. It's possible Hornby intended to do this but perhaps there were delays and so the class 50 came out first, though that's speculation on my part.
There is an argument that for coaches teaks should have been part of the first wave, but Pullmans and Mk1s make an awful lot of sense too.
Another thing you're forgetting is Hornby are at the mercy of third parties and world events which can delay production and clearly did with TT.
They were very unlucky with their launch being badly affected by covid shut downs in China, plus materials shortages. They clearly wanted to get more models out more quickly but were prevented from doing so. Perhaps they should have postponed the launch for another year, but things had probably progressed so far that wasn't a viable option.
Crikey, there’s some negative people in the comments, do people moan at PECO or is it just popular to moan at Hornby? There’s a lot of assumptions with no factual evidence regarding how TT is doing. It’s a new scale, a full range is not going to appear over night and requires significant investment, something a lot of people certainly need reminding of. I look forward to the future of TT and will be coming back to this hobby in the true to scale gauge that is TT120.
@45degreesmodelling people hate change and new.
TT look like going strong. Revolution trains are about TT
Sen it all before .... there's nothing new going on here. You should've seen the letters pages in MRC and Railway Modeller back in the 60s and 70s. Even RM's legendary editor at the time, Cyril Freezer couldn't keep all of 'em from going hammer and tongs at each other.
@@TheHoveHeretic Funny you should mention that. I’ve recently subscribed to RM and with it comes the full back catalogue in a digital format. I’ve read some of those letters you speak of lol.
Its not a new scale, TT 120 was invented in 1947 in Hartford City Indiana
@@mattsmocs3281 you’re correct, sorry I was referring to the modern U.K. market. I know Triang had some sets in the 50s/60s and it’s already popular in Europe!
TT120 needs a Southern Railway loco and Great Western locos its all LNER or LMS.
No restaurant coaches or blue and grey MK1 coaches.
Absolutely! Lots of gaps to fill!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Not catering for southern or lms in 6 years is absurd@@SamsTrains
In the 8th year one of the Bulleid Pacifics and/or the Q1
@paolomargini7904 I hope not but it probably will be.😢
If i could get a new Southern engine from Hornby
I would love either a Brighton Mogul (K Class) or a Brighton C2x 0-6-0
I had a model railway as a kid, but then many, many years away from the hobby.
TT brought me back. I think your suggested line up would have worked better for getting existing fans of the hobby to consider TT, but I think Hornby’s strategy was aimed at bringing new people in, and it certainly worked for me.
I really like having a broad (although limited) range to help me try and find the right era or region I want to commit to.
It worked for me too, just people love moaning because there’s a new scale.
@@tommyb0887 I’m sure it’s just a small (but vocal) minority, but I have encountered people who make their hatred for it very clear.
Everyone is allowed an opinion, not saying they shouldn’t be allowed to dislike it, but as someone new / returning after a very long time away, it doesn’t always feel the most welcoming of places.
Us TT folk will just have to stick together!
@ChrisReader1989 the only problem with TT is a lack of a goods locomotive.
@@gamerfan8445 yeah, it is taking a while for the range to be built up, but I understand why it takes so long.
The way I see it though, TT has many years ahead of brand new tools and releases where ever announcement is something to get excited about, rather than what seems to happen a lot with other scales where some of the ‘big’ announcements are just rereleases with a different paint job
If you look at the initial launch of locomotives they all shared the same body, just different chassis. Makes complete sense since they are learning how to produce as well. Only one body to test and get working. Then going after their best sellers? Going after new customers, so the sets are the starting point. Made a lot of sense. Not trying to go after the experienced modeler, most likely already into OO or N.
Class 37 - Almost a universal loco on regions, use and lifespan. The coaches are there. Wagons are no problem and you could expand them with more specific designs tying in each years liveries. Once you have the chassis you then have many years and livery variations (The same reasoning used for A1s,A3s and A4s). Easier to get mechanically sound - great weight, large motor and 12 pick ups - Also very popular with modellers (TT market is a blank sheet, OO market for Class 37s may be a little busy now).
I think class 37 and 47 are kinda interchangeable in Sam's strategy. For the same reasons you state. Not sure which one I would prefer.
@@andrewjames1190 Yes - Both are relatively easy to achieve with work already done and licenses in place for OO- I wouldn't say it was one or the other - the Class 50 surprised me but seems to be going OK for them.
Overall I think this is a good plan. Unfortunately in my experience, product line ups, even more than individual products, generally suffer from "design by committee" and can lack an overall unified vision.
Geez, I'll be dead in 10 years. Happy with what Hornby have done. A bit of variety and not just old steam.
the 16 ton mineral wagon and the Palvan would be my suggestions
Good suggestions!! The 16t makes sense!
Given younger people are buying smaller houses I wonder whether more emphasis on modern traction to attract younger enthusiasts who would find TT easier to accommodate than OO
I think this was going to be my comment. Steam has a certain romance, however are today's younger generation of modellers going to want to make a train set from an era even their grandparents might not remember well, you might they be more interested in items they can see out of the window now? As such might you be better doing a 66, container wagons, Pendalino, HST and Class 150/153/156/158 Sprinter family, for example.
Younger person (44) here. I bought a small house despite two children because there is literally no alternative. Actually I’ve been trying to buy a larger house for a few years and had a few offers accepted but it’s seemingly impossible. Modern trains are boring. Sorry. Boring shapes, ugly liveries, flat, corporate branding, and no visible moving parts.
Love all my TT models so far and I’ve got to say Sam. Hornbys plan so far beats yours 😂. Class 50 08s hst and a4s are cracking models in TT
Make some simple locos into kits to save on production costs. Or some simple chassis that people can put their own bodies on.
BR wagons could include conflats, steel open mineral wagons, flatbed wagons, and maybe some GUV or PMV vans
Class 47 should have been prioritised over the Class 50 imho. The Class 47 was a genuine multiple traffic vehicle for the best part of fifty years and several remain cleared for main service today,
Indeed I’d say the 47 was more versatile than the modellers (and manufacturers ) favourite Class 37 - Do we really nead a dozen differing makes of those in every scale known to man/women; honestly really ? i know the scale remains an infant but in steam a 3/4PF class is of urgent demand so why so many Pacific’s (other than ease of manufacturing processes)
I think Hornby should make A GWR hall for TT scale Sam, it would be a nice addition as a mixed traffic locomotive.
Cheers Jasper & Willow
Hogwarts Castle as well 😊
agree totally, Jack of all trades loco and is my favorite ✅
A hall ,14xx Prairie Pannier Auto coach and collect coaches .Toad and coal wagons would be my Choice.
It’s an interesting plan but you’re not privy to all the market research and what actually sells. What’s funny, even if Hornby had gone with your plan there’d be people complaining!
I doubt Horny did any market research, haha.
I would gone for modern locos . As that what kids and teenagers see . Who are you got in mind your target buys . If you don't want to take poeple out of the 00 market . Do you want new poeple or just same old ones
Yeah I doubt that will work.
Very interesting video as ever Sam, enjoyed hearing your thoughts.
My one criticism is that you approached the question solely from the perspective of an experienced rail enthusiast, whereas Hornby have stated that TT 1:120 is aimed at newer hobbyists. With that in mind, and speaking as someone who's just recently dipped their toes back into the hobby after many years, I think they've mainly nailed it so far. They've gone with famous locomotives, big sellers from their existing ranges, and in the cases of the steam locos with prototypes easily recognisable to the most casual of rail enthusiasts; an approach which I think makes perfect sense being consistent with their need to recoup as much of their investment into the scale as quickly as possible.
I'd very much like to see a DMU, but other than that I can't fault their choices so far.
i think anything gwr or lswr would be much appreciated, i would certainly buy it
not biased because i live in cornwall, promise
Other manufacturers entering the scale...more will follow
Agreed. Hornby (and some of the others) need to accept that brand loyalty/tribalism isn't really a thing in the hobby... and in my book that's a feature, not a bug.
Emu's and multiple units, size is the main issue why people can't run these kinds of trains in 00, ergo they don't sell well in 00. You just have to look at the amount of emu/dmu's available in N scale to show proof of concept. Third rail traction especially is a huge hole across the range currently.
I would argue that the reason why EMUs and multiple units are not as popular isn’t because no one has the space for them on a layout but the cost that they come in at for same, many people are just not willing to pay the high prices that they’re sold for and I have evidence for it, a few years ago a model shop owner told me that bachmann were going to retool their class 220/221 voyager models and bring them more up to date with things like a DCC socket and electronic couplings between the coaches, I’m sure there were other things but the main ones mentioned to me were the dcc socket and electronic couplings but when potential buyers were told how much the model would likely cost which would be in the region of £600 they all said that they were not willing to pay that just for a retool of the model so in the end bachmann immediately dropped the project and didn’t proceed with the retool of the 220/221 voyager units, take a look at the Revolution class 180 for example, currently I have paid £175 to secure myself one of those but the overall price is in the region of £300, the new 802s 5 car sets from hornby are around £500 but it is to be remembered that each company has different circumstances and In terms of Revolution trains they are a smaller company compared to hornby plus with Revolution it’s a crowd fund to get models produced so the £175 I have paid for my 180 is going towards getting the model made, another example of a model os the upcoming dapol class 323, it’s a smaller multiple unit but it’s still going to cost people around £350 for dcc ready.
@davidstrains4910 I model 00 gauge and DMU'S are my thing.
I am currently in the early development stages of a DMU servicing depot layout. I would love there to be more 00 DMU models and looking forward to the Revolution Trains 180 which I have ordered 2. However, big bug bare is the Bachmann and Hornby pricing of their DMU offering which is ridiculous. £300 plus for a 2 car unit for example. I am not interested in electronic couplings etc.
Please Accurascale can you produce some DMU'S so I have a choice and don't have to held ransom to them. A Class 185 TPE please that would be the icing on the cake.
@@jonathanmillar1975 Interesting how you don’t care about electronic couplings, first off I should have called them conductive couplings, on multiple units they make it so you only have to have 1 DCC decoder for the whole train instead of having to buy multiple and then program them, the vast majority of people, when buying a multiple unit model will look for conductive couplings if they intend to go DCC, conductive couplings also allow things like interior lighting and extra electrical pickups for the motor, hornby and bachmanns pricing for their multiple units is a bit ridiculous I agree but the price of models is determined by whats happening in the world and the status of the company that makes it from what I have heard, it would be nice to see accurascale produce a multiple unit for the UK but it would be quite a high price, while they may not be doing a British multiple unit right now but under their Irish Manufacturer IRM they are producing a class 22000, a 3 car unit DC that is coming in at £302, a 4 car is coming in at £371 and a 6 car is coming in at £501 so again we have quite high prices here for models of a multiple unit which as I say I think,is a bit of a barrier for other manufacturers who are possibly thinking of producing a multiple unit.
@@davidstrains4910 forgot to mention I don't model in DCC hence I am not bothered about that kind of stuff. Front and rear directional lighting is sufficient for my needs at present. The problem I have is that the cost to convert my collection and time it would take I cannot justify. Been collecting on and off for nearly 40 years so have a mix of models. I still have some Lima models which I still run on my layout. Last count I was on 40+ DMU'S and 100+ diesel locomotives as well as wagons and coaching stock. I do some clever wiring and cab control just digital stuff does not interest me in the least.
@@jonathanmillar1975 That’s fine if you don’t do DCC Jonathan, I can understand your preference of not wanting it, I used to be the same with this whole DCC stuff but recently I have been fitting some to my locos, even sound ones and I’m enjoying it, we’re all different in this hobby after all but if you were to go dcc and you had a multiple unit you really wanted to do but it didn’t have conductive couplings it means to just get the directional lights working properly you would have to buy 2 dcc decoders and then program them, this has been shown to be quite unpopular with many railway modellers, a good example is when hornby released their new APT one thing they were criticised for was having to buy about 3 dcc chips in order for it to be used on a DCC system, the APT alone is around the £500 mark so having to add to that the price of 3 dcc decoders if that’s what the person has it’s going to get more expensive very quickly and it depends on what decoders that person goes with, the upcoming Stadler FLIRT models that hornby are currently making now where you need multiple decoders for those on DCC whereas you look at bachmann with their recent Southern region EMUs they have a conductive coupling system which means you only need one dcc decoder to get the model ready for running on a dcc system, I can understand your preference of not wanting dcc or these conductive couplings but we are all different in this hobby.
I think Hornby's big mistake was not going for BR Steam.
BR Steam has almost as wide an appeal as the "try to cater to everyone" approach while also having the benefit of "focussing" on one range/era.
BR Steam would have allowed for Hornby to produce all of the BR Standards and a huge variety of the Big 4 locos, with only a small number of rolling stock designs needed to cover all of them initially. From a rolling stock point of view, Mk 1 coaches, 12t Vans and 16t Mineral Wagons plus a suitable Break Van would be enough. Maybe not the most thrilling selection, but a simple range that does the job.
For the locos, you can still knock out the A3 or A4, and then chuck in a Standard 5, one of the large LMS Pacifics, a GWR King or Castle and a Bulleid Light Pacific.
In the second year, expand the range with earlier liveries, a Standard 4 Tank, Pannier etc etc.
I cant help feeling TT was Hornby's desperate roll of the dice to return to profitability. For a company that has not made a profit in almost a decade it was a very brave move. I wish them well. But I guess the question is would the large development and tooling costs have been better devoted to raising the quality of their OO range? Hornby has shown it can match Accurascale sometimes but its overall range is very patchy in quality. As a marketing strategy I cant see how TT will ever succeed. The investment required to make and manufacture TT locos vs OO would be almost identical. I am a rusted on Hornby buyer but every time I look at their share price (and now an increase in their borrowings) I wonder how long they have to live in their current organisational structure.
New scale, new market, new era.
I would go 100% bright and colourful current EMUs - SWR 444/455 etc, Southern 377, Virgin Voyager etc. Then current era locos in the brightest colours possible - GBRf 66, Freightliner 59. DMUs like East Midlands 222
No steam at all - all modern era to appeal to the kids. Zero nostalgia. Cut down on detail, market it as a bright toy that will fit in their bedroom.
Enthusiasts already have O, HO/OO, N, Z, T plus all the narrow gauge options. TT could be the cheap introduction kids need. Oh, and don't let Hornby anywhere near it :P
I think you are correct. Plus those Hitachi things fake-GWR have are just four/five car sets bolted together for full length trains as they are not too long for a small layout. HST sets have to have at least seven cars to look any good.
Hello Sam's Trains. Today is my Birthday 🎂 I'm a huge fan of yours🎉 I love watching your videos.
I'm more than happy with what the Hornby experts have done and are doing !
Good stuff! Fingers crossed it’s making them some money - their financial report should be out soon!
I know Hornby is a British company, but even so, I just want to see more models of Irish engines and rolling stock.
10:32 I always thought the Toad Brakevans had one opening, or whatever it's called.
Id like to see you make a attempt at making your own 3D Printed TT locomotives.
It would be worth a shot.
I''d love that too! If I can find some wheels I could give that a go :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains Finding wheel sets in TT gauge shouldn't be as complicated as it may seem. Just google for Peho TT (they also have turned brass axle bearings in their range), Haedl TT, Mueller-TT, or browse through the spare parts range of Roco (yes, they are back in TT scale), Piko, or Tillig.
@@SamsTrains
Try 3smr they do TT wheels
interesting plan. now revolution trains now going to produce ready to run wagons too the range is getting better. caroline
Awesome video Sam's trains 🚆
Hsts used MK3 coaches not MK2s. Wouldn't buy it your way I'm giving it another year if no Southern I'll stop it. I would have done a loco from each region see which sold the best then concentrate on that region for a while.with no competition hornby can do what they like .
What models should Hornby make?
TT is still fairly new but for steam they could do with a Castle and a Pannier for GWR, the LMS definitely needs Black 5 because I’m sure most of us had one growing up and for Southern a Bullied (Light) Pacific would be awesome and an M7 perhaps?
6:12 You see, Sam is smart. I mean, I agree with him.
I won't lie that I've been thinking on one day making a TT:120 Gordon.
Some interesting ideas here, but my main takeaway is that my toolbox is missing an era-spanner.
Totally modern era with cameras in the cab, easy bluetooth pairing, lights, speakers and DCC out of the box. The trains should work with Alexa home automation things too. Opening range would include those Hitachi things because they work as five car sets.
I would have a phone app that enables a remote connection, so you can invite a friend to play trains without them having to be in the room, to run scheduled services as a game.
I would also partner with TESCO to do a TESCO train at a bargain price, this would have the 66 and lots of wagons with the basic oval to get people started. This would get to be on sale in TESCO with value range wagons that are fine for a five year old but not for the boomer. The value range trains would be the 'gateway drug'.
I think their choises of the Flying Scotsman and Mallard were good first models- locomotives that all sorts of people will recognize. The HST and 08 shunters are also iconic and have been in service for 50+ years. The class 50s can be suitable to pull a wide variety of rolling stock, but the Class 66s are limited to being suitable with modern era rolling stock. The J50 was a good compliment to the LNER pacifics and goods wagons available. Hornby did offer matching coaches for the Duchess locos, but I do hope they make streamlined versions in the near future as they use the same chassis.
I agree the next TT locomotives Hornby should make are those that can span multiple eras and companies, like the Robinson O4 you mentioned. The LBSC Terriers, LMS 8F, Midland compound, industrial tank engines, Class 37, Class 47, SECR N class or S15, and a Southern Reigon EMU are other examples.
Other locos I think should be next steps in TT are the GWR Hall Class which can be the Hogwarts Express, GWR 57xx Pannier tank, LMS Jinty, LMS black 5, BR 9F, Fowler 4F, BR Standard 4 tank, Southern Bullied Pacifics, a 1950s DMU, Pacer, Sprinter, Electrostar, and Hitachi Azuma which would fill in the gaps that Hornby have created in TT.
I do agree that the Gresley teak coaches should've been announced at the start of Hornby TT. For rolling stock, I'll just suggest whatever suits the currently available and currently planned offerings of locomotives.
Ultimately, what would be ideal is that another manufacturer produce TT trains to compliment what Hornby has done and take the strain off them.
One thing you didn't mention is if you would allow competition to take place or if a rival announced a model would you rush to make it before them?
It depends - if work has already started on the model, then it’s in your interest to release it first. If not, I’d cancel it and do something else… there’s so much else that needs doing!
Well, of course the question was directed to Sam, but would it not be more wise working together instead of competing hard in an already small business. For example, in Germany both PIKO and Märklin/Trix worked on their respective ICE-4 at the same time and launch at around the same time in case of H0. This is common practice amongst German manufacturers.
There is no rush to who is first. Both brands have their pro and cons. PIKO committed to higher roof details, whilst Märklin/Trix committed on innovation of functions such as dimmable internal lighting and adjustable colour temperatures, had some other details modelled better, etc. Both brands sold equally well, but not in a toxic way.
@@lindaoffenbachI think something similar is going on with the US market as well.
Hi Sam, I always appreciate your videos and comments, but this time I definitely prefer Hornby's plan. As a TT modeller from Germany I only knew Mallard, Flying Scotsman, Class 66, the Intercity 125 and - oh wow - they all suddenly were in Hornby's catalogue :-)! Just waiting for the Hogwarts Express and some Downton Abbey trains... But seriously: They got me with their programme and it was really fascinating to learn more about the railways in UK, also by watching your channel. On the other hand, starting with a lot of steam locos only as you proposed would not have attracted me in that way. And so it might also be about people in UK coming or returning to the hobby, probably Hornby's primary targets...
A nice class 47 maybe an AC electric emu/loco and a DMU of some kind 😊
Hi Sam, I'm not keen on TT just for the reason I like era's and rolling stok that took ages to appear in OO and it will take ages, if not forever to see them appear in TT.
But I've been following the scene and it seems the biggest argument is the les space it takes to have a layout, a lot of elder people are moving from a house into an apartment, so I understand the need for that.
To most of these people, an A3 or an A4 was the first loco's most of them got first, so I understand the nostalgia in that.
I think most TT collectors are aware that the choice would be limited, and that patience would be something taken in consideration, and I hope for them they can bring up that patience.
To me an open question would be, was it not better to start with BR diesels instead of steam?
Visiting shows, I think there is a huge shift from steam to diesel and modern rolling stock.
I see more and more diesel layout gain territory over steam, totally different now than lets say 10 years ago.
So I understand your love for steam, but I think steam will be a minority in the future…
15:34 I say some type of cattle van and a 1-plank or a flatbed.
Don’t forget that the original plan for the reintroduction of this scale was to cater for people who wanted a small shelf layout as well as the main line oval style layout. An ex LMS or a Standard 2-6-2 Mickey Mouse tank engine and an ex-LMS push-pull set would be popular. Also an ex-GWR B-Set to go with a pannier tank would sell. I’d also bring out a Hall instead of the Star class loco.
I’m expecting Hornby to sign you up shortly, great plan👍🏻
With all due respect, I think that you may have missed the whole point of Hornby having launched specifically TT 120. Utilizing Arnold, Hornby has finally given hobbyists, and collectors alike the opportunity to run the fabulous trains synonymous with British rail along side other famous European trains. Same gauge, same track. It is my opinion, that if Hornby expands the range, like they are doing withe the container wagons, and diesels, and hopefully the “Euro Star”, they will endeavour to succeed. By concentrating solely on British models, with the only consideration of wooing OO modellers away from their scale especially after investing a ton of money into their hobby would surely be a receipt for disaster. If Hornby is going to succeed, it will definitely need to entice modellers from around the world. If not in HO gauge, why not TT 120. Personally, I would have liked to see Hornby launch a Line of British models in HO scale under the Rivarossi or Lima name plate. OO gauge has a very limited market, which may shrinking each year. I’m an avid follower. Keep up the good work. Cheers!
15:56 for your br wagons i would go the route of 21/16T mineral wagons and Ex-GWR cattle vans
I want a tt120 shunter with full dcc. This could get me into modelling again for sure.
Interesting. Perhaps H is doing the best they actually can for the moment with limited resources. Starting with a specific region wouldn't cover ground and would limit the scope of interest for buyers (hence sales which H can not afford). Not sure if that would be wise from a commerce point of view. H needs to cover ground from a wide perspective and just grow on that. What they should be worried about is that their total quality, fidelity and innovation are to be on par with continental competition in the range of TT. They are already lagging behind from what we've seen... Cheerio.
Interesting video Sam...I think you missed a trick with your no. Of Strategies, I think there is a 3rd. Which Hornby have followed....build in TT the locos that are the best sellers from 00....that therefore entices the 'collectors' who don't model a particular era .. you know someone like yourself 😮😅. ( or me..!) I rotate my collection of locos every 4-6 weeks on the layout between The Big Four, BR steam and BR diesel. I do wonder how many modellers are strictly era/region/company limited...or are their more who dabble in a bit of everything. ??? Thus Hornby building 'bestsellers' makes business sense...but not to the outside world at large....
Nice selections. One correction; the GWR 57XX was not auto-fitted. The 64XX and 16XX were, and would be more suitable for running with an autocoach, not requiring running round at branch termini as would be the case with the 57XX.
The goods wagon would be the 16 ton steel mineral wagon, the perfect thing to run behind 9f and also being introduced in the war can be run behind big 4 freight locomotives. Sell to go with it a coal load with a magnet so you can load and unload your train.
Seems like you put a lot of thought into your plan Sam!
Hi Sam, I have not had a train set since childhood and don`t intend to buy one now, but i do enjoy following your programs. Very well thought out presentations with integrity intact.
Suppose Sam’s idea ain’t bad. Tbf I got not much interest in TT scale but seeing that it’s new it’s good for the start couple years if hornby ever does anything new to the range.
However what I would like in the future for any range and for what hornby should do. DO MODERN DAY EMUs. I am honestly unsure does anybody interested in more modern day EMUs something like electrostar, desiro trains, and or the BR era ones running ran in borrowed time like class 313, class 319, class 507 etc. Seriously I find absolutely no company making modern EMUs and only class 91 and HST etc etc as much as how popular as they are.
Hornby TT will get there. We finally have another manufacturer joiningn
who?
@@sleepyren_ revolution trains
Don’t forget we already had Peco, in fact they started it!
You could even argue that Bachmann are involved, given that they are producing some Scenecraft buildings in TT120 soon
@gregmacdonald927 I wouldnt be surprised if Farish or Bachmann do join. But they need a couple years. Building I bet are faster.
excited to watch
Hi Sam thanks for another great video. You're strategy for TT is a good one the only thing i would change is introducing the SR at the sametime as BR. The idea being to release SR locomotives but also do BR version's aswell so the BR era is still covered.
TBH, if TT had a better range across the manufacturers I would have bought in. I like OO but like many space is at a premium. N isn't for me but Chandwell is a stand out of how amazing this scale can be. I salute Hornby for trying to relaunch TT in the UK. They are hitting & missing as usual, however as a critic of their OO performance I do commend them. I agree with you Sam, maybe an express & a suburban for the big 4. Cheers
The keithley and worth valley railway also has a 2mt in preservation so you could in the future do some up specially for that loco number to attract some attention to the model as it ages
Another great video from Sam. I do not agree though with his ideas on TT production. I think Hornby have achieved a miracle and have done a lot of intelligent planning. I think TRIANG and KITMASTER were so clever in their launch of the original TT for the period they lived in. I run both 3mm and 120 and these new models are brilliant, however the size of 3mm is visually superior particularly for aging eyesight. I love stripping down the old robust mechanisms and bringing them back to life ... I am not sure if many could do this for the 120 mechanisms ? I follow Ebay sales and it is alarming to see the number of second hand 120 scale items that people had bought and are so quickly dumping. I am amused by some of the 120 conversions that look cruder than many models in the 3mm membership. Putting spoked wheels on TRIANG 3mm loco's helps transform them. The spaces in spoked wheels on 120 locos are so close that it isn't really that obvious as little light passes through them. I hope we have articles how to utilise 120 items/ mechanisms in the 3mm fraternity.
One problem Hornby has had in spades is that stuff in Year 1 was selling out faster than Hornby were able to produce it. This in turn took production slots away from later items. The O4 is in Bachmann's stable so Hornby would have to start from measuring and there will be nothing in the archives. Hornby do the O1 but that isn't a good enough seller.
Hi Sam , I just would like you to have added some Bogie Goods wagon’s ! The variety is great and various in this range. Regards from Ron 🚂
I would suggest the 3F jinty's as they were LMS, lasted until BR, has done passengers & freight
It’s an interesting feature…
I think you’ll lose a lot of interest not getting that HST out early, so maybe year one have that as an option, I’d also knock one of your 4 new tooling a year out and replace it with your diesel set up, one a year coming out, mooching off your existing rolling stock, but supporting your HST fans, look at the amount of companies (west hill, good wood, cavelex etc.) plus amount of companies that do solely diesel tops/pre-tops stuff, it’ll help you spread out initial fan base and have one fan base buying constantly each year
I’d possibly do your mineral wagons as your BR steam stage wagon
Sam you always give an interesting show, and this one got a lot of people thinking, which is always good for the hobby
Anecdotal, but from what we can glean Hornby are really pleased with how the new scale has sold. The train sets have sold out whenever available. As Sam did say, a huge investment is involved, but one factor not mentioned is how long before other manufacturers join in. Peco we know about, but it was rumoured that Heljan cancelled an intention to produce a TT loco - presumably to see whether the scale would succeed. I therefore expect other manufacturers to be looking at developing locos and rolling stock in the new scale. It is, after all, inconceivable that others would simply leave Hornby alone to cash in on a new market. So I think the range of products available could well expand more quickly once Dapol, Heljan, Accurascale et al get their acts together.
The problem as I see it is that if you are limited to 3 or 4 models per year, would it not have been better to start with the more modern eras?
Firstly, there are far fewer variants to need to cover. You get quite a decent looking modrn era layout with maybe just a 66 (albeit in a few different liveries), a multiple unit such as a 156 or 158, a voyager and perhaps a 47. These would probably also be far more relevant to the beginner as that is what they'll be most familiar with.
Another era that would easily be covered by relatively few models would be 70's through to the 90's.
For this you could cover most bases with the addition of a 20, 25 and 37. Coaching stock need only be some Mk 1's and maybe three types of wagon.
Later on, adding in a 1st gen DMU, a 125 and an 08 would cover most areas of the UK from mid 60's up to the present day. I would avoid anything too area specific such as Westerns or Deltics.
From there you could expand into 50's and 60's steam era.
Just my take on it.😊
Great plan Sam! I’d certainly be interested in TT if this was the way it was done!!!
Rolling stock recommendations for phase 2;
1. Br standard 12t panel van, useful for multiple future phases and tons of derivations possible
2. Br conflat wagon. In addition to visual appeal, gives subtle teasers to modellers about gwr and br metrovicks/class 24s/black 5s for condor sets
Phase 4 recommendation: br mk1 suburbans for further consist and suburban variation. Also gives hope for a class 31 from modellers
Being from South Wales there has to be a class 37 or as we called them a "68", some 21 ton mineral VB`s and coke hoppers or iron ore hoppers (ex footplate Ebbw Valley)
Hi Sam, Instead of the Star Class I may have chosen the Saint Class as when the modern era models start coming out you can then produce the new build locomotives 'Tornado' (although this may be a Peppercorn A1 rather than a Gresley one but I don't know what the differences are) and 'Lady of Legend'.
One glaring omission in my opinion is the hunslet austerity tank.
-It would use the same underframe and running gear of your other 0.6.0 locos
- it would cover BR and LNER eras and liveries
- opens the door for industrial modellers using the huge variety of industrial and even military users of the loco
Hornby should hire you Sam. You’ve got a fantastic 5-year plan for what to produce in TT.
Very interesting video today Sam if hornby did that I would be shocked
Personally Year 1 I'd have
Flying Scotsman
( passenger loco)
Terrier ( Tank engine)
Black 5 ( Freight Loco)
If you wanted a 4th I'd say the 08 shunter.
This not only covers 3 of the Big Four it also covers the bases. Also all of these locos have been in hornbys range for years and they sell well.
I think this would be a good start to bring people into the new scale. Having the popular locos first would help generate a steady income to keep the scale going.
Year 2 would have to be
City class (specifically City of Truro)
9 F
Deltic
And that optional 4th would probably be a Pannier tank.
Year 3 would have to start with Mallard
Ruston shunter
Hunslet Austerity
And for that optional 4th
Standard class 2
Year 4
Coronation Scot
Battle of Britain class
101 DMU
And for that 4th
Class 43 (HST)
Year 5 is when id probably start to experiment a little more.
Lion (if it was possible in a smaller scale)
King class
J70 Tram
And finally for the 4th
The Stirling single
I think this covers most areas. Pre grouping, big four, BR and industrial.
Great plan, but what about including an industrial steam loco of some sort? It could be produced in lots of real and fictitious Private owner liveries, would be a range-spanner as many of them worked well into the '70s, and work alongside all the other eras planned so far
Living in the States, I'm bemused at the popularity of "classic rock" radio. Stuff from decades ago, played endlessly, day after day. Stairway to Heaven, Dust in the Wind, most of Dark Side of the Moon, the entirety of Rumours.
Model railways sometimes feel a bit like that. Here's a scale that's been reinvented and it's new and exciting. And.... A1s, A4s, Class 25 diesels that left service in the 1980s and now are found only on heritage railways. Should we have a Bulleid? Should we have a Castle class?
I'm just as guilty, I'm building a N gauge layout and my most recent purchases are a Warship and a Hymek. Museum pieces. But then I'm not far from being a museum piece, myself.
I just wonder if the hobby is too stuck in the greatest hits era? To have seen a Warship in actual service you have to be well into your 50s.
Of course there's a place for the classics. But with this new (or rediscovered) scale, and the chance to start more or less afresh, I honestly wonder whether younger people wouldn't be more enthused by a range or today's modern trains than Great-Grandpa's A4, and other new versions of stuff that has existed in OO for decades.
This is a brilliant idea! Perhaps any manufacturer considering a new scale or range should consult more widely among the modelling fraternity!
An alternative for a new range would be to pick a prototype where the range of 'real' items is not very wide. 00n9 would be an example of this, but if Hornby had picked, say, the fascinating Rodopi mountain railway in Bulgaria (many youtube videos - this is a real railway, operating 4/5 times every day over 78 miles of track, stopping at the highest station in the Balkans), they could have done it in one year: two loco types (one steam, one diesel), one coach (in 3 or 4 liveries) and a few goods wagon types, plus some simple 10mm gauge track (useful also for other Eastern European 760mm 'Bosnian gauge' railways, or the Welshpool & Llanfair).
Again, if you have only a budget for, say, three locomotives your plan for four locos each year can't work. And again (my comment somehow disappeared), Piko should make an austerity they also can use on the continent to make the TT market a bit more interesting. And, again, congrats to your new haircut!
Great video Sam! I would love to see a video like this but for 009 if you would be willing to do that.
For the BR wagon period 5 to today or close, I would choose the MGR Hopper, a real signature wagon from the era 6 to the era 9. Not complicated, covers a broad range of time, and was widely used (it killed off all the previous types of coal wagons). Certainly a must-do if you are going towards the diesel side of the rail force.
Good marketing strategy you made here Sam, hope Hornby would listen...Their offer in TT is a little bit all over the place, and no one YET had come forward to plug the gaps. Hope that might change soon...
I can understand why hornby released A1, A3 and A4 together as they all share the same wheel set and probably the same Chassis. So develope 1 chassis or 2 very similar chassis which can be used with 3 bodies.
a few things GWR Stars are not Mixed Traffic loco, 2 5700 were not auto fitted
Ah yes - I probably needed the 64xx for an auto pannier, though the Stars did haul freight, despite being mainly for passengers!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Some 57xx Class were auto fitted but classed as 8750's
what a great C. V. If you was applying for a job at hornbys , but why lower your standards , keep up your great videos and maybe one day the big model train companies my start to listen and understand its reliability and good testing of all items before foisting sub standard models on us. I include all the model makers thanks again for your videos john
I think their biggest mistake was not bringing in a tank engine in year 1. Ideally a Black 5, class 37 and a GWR pannier tank should all be brought in earlier than locos like the 66. But I’m impressed so far with the range.
It's always a difficult one to decide where to start. Wouldn't a good area be BR Standards and then early diesels in first 2 years. You can then cover late steam, dieselisation and BR blue era quite quickly
TT120 fantastic scale and amazing job done by Hornby, Peco and West hill Wagon Works and lots of other small manufactures. More to come from other companies like Revolution Trains. The scale has a great future.
The biggest cock up I think Hornby made is not having a more diverse range upon release. In terms of models released anyway. If I recall the first two were an A1 and an A4? Two express engines and nothing else. If I were to do it (Just the launch mind you.) I would have gone for One large, One Medium (Either small tender or large tank engine.) and One Small steam engine, and one large diesel and one small diesel 5 locos in the first wave with a good range, I would have stuck them all in a BR livery (Though maybe different colours?) and tried to mix up the sources a bit. (I'm not a diesel guy so will leave those out.) But for the loco's say an A1/3 for the large steam engine and representing the LNER, in Ivatt class 2 (Tender or Tank.) as the middle ground and repping the LMS and lastly a GWR Pannier for the GWR. And as I said 2 diesel locos. One large and one small (With the smaller being something like a class 08. which could in theory use the same chassis (Or at least an awful lot of the same development work.) For the Pannier tank. I'd have two starter sets. One with the A1/3 as Steam passenger, and one with the large diesel with goods stock. I'd make the rolling stock in the starter sets share moulds with the things that were up for sale out side of a starter set, but not the same paint scheme (IE maybe the coaches in the set are Teak and the ones for individual sale are Red?) Once the first wave had landed then I would work on what they have. Start working on other liveries and what not. As the main development and cost going forwards would be Loco development, I would try to get it to 6 new Locos a year. One per big 4 company (one big two medium and one small loco, trying to change up what company's got the big and small loco's each year. (Maybe putting a southern loco in the next starter set to make up for its absence the first year?) , and 2 diesel, so that in theory there would be one Diesel and one Steam Starter set per year, alternating between Freight and Passenger to mix it up a little. With a large or medium Loco each time and keeping the rolling stock as unique as possible in the starter sets as an incentive to buy them. (Of course I don't expect the 'Exclusive' liveries to remain exclusive for ever. Maybe for a year and then its released in the next year for individual purchase?) But I would continue with the idea of all the liveries produced would be limited to BR's ones at first, and then maybe diversify 6 months later. Maybe they could even go back to doing unique sets every now and then as a bonus (Not replacing a starter set. But maybe a Break down train set, or even a 2 engine set, or of course a harry potter set maybe every other year? or even a big one. One of the big American War Tender Engines (That I have completely forgotten the name of.) with some flat beds with tanks on it?) As it would give an excuse to produce things that may not fit in to the standard plan? Ultra Modern Sets, Vintage sets (Virgin High Speed Trains and Stephenson's Rocket.) Things that wouldn't fit in to the basic set of 'Six BR Engines a year' format.
I know its not perfect but that's how I would have done it. May have been a bit expensive upfront, but theoretically once sale's picked up you have a system you can churn out each year with only real development costs being on locomotives. (And even then after a while You'll be able to use the chassis over and over again. Especially for things like 0-6-0 tank engines and Diesel locomotives.) It should also in theory that everybody would want to buy something each year. Even if it is just a loco from their chosen region. I knew a few people who arnt even looking at TT120 till they produce something southern or western. Also the reason I would go with BR liveries for the initial release of every loco, is simply because that means everything, could theoretically, run on a layout together right out of the box. As its a simple case of, to those that care and sit there saying 'I cant run early GWR badged locos next to BR branded Eastern region stock' may be sated if everything, upon initial release represents a comparable time period, and those that don't care. Well they don't care. But those who do care and don't care, can still buy everything on day one release and run it on their layout with out issue. And of course 6 to 12 months later. Regional and more diverse liveries and paint schemes will be released. (Of course I would be doing the same with rolling stock whilst trying to keep things exclusive at least for 12 months or so. )
Over all the idea would be 24 locomotives by the end of the first 4 years. Which I know is a little heavy, but it would keep people interested in the line, and again after a while you can start reusing your R&D costs. (I mean how much would it really cost to make an A4 is you already have an A1 or A3 or any 0-6-0 (Tender or tank engine) Once you have the basis of a Pannier out of the way?) Plus you'd have a good small fleet per region, as well as a good mix of BR diesel loco's with a wide range of rolling stock. (Of course your going to have a lot of repeats (Many, many repaints of 5 plank wagons.) but a lot of diversity too (A chance to get a GWR clerestory rake of coaches in there, Along side a LMS, Southern and LNER stock along side Pullmans and BR Mk1's) . The same way Sam seams to have lined up his product line.)
Also completely off topic of TT-120 but that could be applied is the idea of alternate numbers for wagon and coach packs.
Would it not be possible for them to do an A and B (And possibly even C set.) With the basic idea of it being that all packs (A, B and C.) Are the same (two open wagons, one box van and one tanker.) But each set has a different series of running numbers. to keep it really simple. the wagons in set A would 010 and 011, the van would be 212 and the tanker could be 308, and then the identical models in set be would be 012 and 013 the van as 213 and the tanker as 309 and of course set C would continue the numbers. At least in my mind this wont effect anybody that would buy just one wagon set, and may even encourage people to buy even more.
Another alternative would be to just leave the numbers off the wagons and include stickers the user could put on themselves. Maybe with a little diagram to show where they are intended to go?
Given that you can build so much in a small space, surely some Southern early gen' electrics would sell well to those who like busy suburban layouts?
19:20 57xx Panniers weren't auto-fitted, so while you can run an autocoach with a 57xx, it cannot run as a typical GWR auto-train, ie. running with the coach leading.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head in terms of Hornby using quite a few heavy hitters early on. Currently you can model Doncaster works and not much else unless you don’t mind duplicate locos
I think, in the ideal world, like Sam said a while ago, it would have been 100% times smarter on Hornby's part to go in TT with several different manufacturers.
Then, I think Sam's plan would work here. Have Hornby go hard on LNER and BR for the first two years, with maybe Heljan going for modern engines and Oxford for GWR and pre grouping or something. Like have some sort of agreement, "we're making models together, but we're not going to step on toes for the first couple years."
That avoids the problems Sam pointed out in this video of diesel fan starving until year 4 or LNER fans having to wait 4 years for new models.
Sam the small prairie was auto fitted too
Interesting video Sam, but you’d bankrupt Hornby wth your choices.
First phase purely LNER liveried would not sell huge except for Flying Scotsman. This period is no longer a big seller, and I would doubt LNER is the most popular of the big 4. People only buy Flying Scotsman and Mallards as they see them in preservation. V3 tank loco is not LNER wide and never been a big seller for Bachmann in 00. Big black freight locos would not shift quickly either to get your money back. J50 is a dud choice and I think Hornby themselves have dropped one here with that selection. You need the A4 if you’re doing LNER only.
Second phase BR standards is also flawed. Britannia and 9F I can understand, but the 78xxx has really limited appeal.
Third phase GWR is not the route I would have done. If you’re going to start with LNER, then next you go with LMS to offer some cross-region possibilities. You can’t do that with LNER/GWR. Star class really odd choice. Castle would be the one to go for. The GWR ROD will not sell.
To leave Diesels until 4th phase is suicide. Diesels sell more than general steam now. Only express steamers are dead certs.
In the fifth phase, to have a standard 5 rather than an LMS black 5 is bizarre. Nobody just models just standards in the BR period. To ignore the LMS completely (the largest of the big 4) is not the way to go.
I would do more or less what Hornby have already done. Big steam passenger locos that you people see on steam specials in real life today (A3,A4, Duchess, Bulleid pacific, Castle, Britannia, plus a Black 5 would be in my 5 year plan) with a broad diesel selection. The big steamers could all run with mk 1s either in a steam/diesel crossover 1960s era or as preserved steam specials to the modern day. Probably a have a class 47 rather than a 50 for wide cross region appeal, plus a 37. No point in producing pre-grouping small wagons and have an Austerity tank rather than an early extinct J50 as austerity could cover industrial steam even into the early 80s. Ignore all the other steam possibilities until the diesel range is maximised.
Ask a retailer what sells best. Run of the mill steam locos, especially non-descript black freighters don’t sell and hang around on shelves forever, even after discounting. Express passenger steamers are popular as you can still see them on the network today. Any diesel, especially TOPS blue era from 70s to 90s sells, and sells well, plus modern freight diesels.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts - who says that diesels outsell steamers out of interest? From my experience, steam is still dramatically more popular in terms of video views (which I realise is not the same thing), and this translates to referrals sales too. Some steamer certainly have been left on the shelves in the past in OO, but this doesn’t necessarily prove their unpopularity.
What were they thinking of with those old private owner wagons?
do you think Hornby will ever let any other brands like Bachmann or Walthers sell tt scale and if so, do you think Bachmann will make Thomas characters because they have the license
It’s not any question of Hornby ‘telling” others join. It’s entirely up to them. Nothing Hornby can do to stop it. Hornby have said before they’d consider it a compliment if others joined.
Arguably Heljan were going to beat Hornby to UK TT120. I was thinking TT is a bit small for young children to handle but they do make HO/OO9 Talyllyn Railway based Thomas series models.
Br 16 ton mineral wagon would be good in year 2
Also, I somehow found a Bachman loco that's dcc equipped for only 136.24. I'm thinking of buying it because i have a friend named sam and hes giving me an old bachmann dcc controller and some old atlas code 83 or 100 track
I would only be interested if Southern engines were brought out earlier, under sams plans its being ignored. I think it could put off a lot of people.