So he gave an alternative name he last used when he was 12, which made it more difficult for people who knew him to tie him to the case when they read the paper, and he took a while before he turned up to give his testimony, when most people would have wanted to help or have their fifteen minutes in the spotlight. Also, I seem to remember from another video that none of his descendants were aware that great-great-granddad had almost come face to face with JTR, which seems like the sort of story that would have been handed down in the family, given that we are still speculating about the whole thing even from abroad. So he likely didn’t go visit his mother and daughter and say “you’re not going to believe what happened to me on my way to work”, and if they read the newspaper they probably didn’t think he was this Cross guy, particularly when he had mentioned nothing… He’s either guilty as sin or deeply socially atypical.
A good point. An innocent bystander would struggle to keep quiet about their involvement in such a notorious crime. Maybe not bragging to strangers but at least confiding in family and friends and, if innocent expressing compassion and sympathy for the victim. Lechmere presumably stayed silent for the rest of his life. Guilty as sin.
Yes, to me that's one of the biggest red flags about him. It would be totally unnatural for him as an innocent witness to not tell his family, friends, and closest workmates. Yet he obviously didn't, and even went as far as giving a false name at the inquest to conceal to them his connection to the case. Sure, some people generally like to keep things to themselves, but such a degree of secrecy, under those circumstances, is highly suspicious.
@@iancavon7125 True but also consider this: Lechmere did also give the name 'Cross' at a previous inquest where he was involved in an accident where a boy died. However, he was completely innocent of any crime on that occasion and had no reason to obscure his identity. And yet, he gave the name 'Cross' when he was innocent. Therefore, we cannot presume that when he does this a second time at the Nicolls inquest this then makes him guilty. If he has form for using an alias when innocent, then doing this a second time does not prove anything. The only reasons I can think of that he would give the name Cross at both inquests is that he didn't want his family to find out about either or that he was known as Cross at work and was volunteering a name that would help him to be found by investigators later on if required.
I have had to block no less than three outraged protesters for this video. One under his third identity, and one who is trying to get this channel closed down as he doesn't approve of the content. I don't like deleting or removing people as I like to encourage all debate and its very complex and time consuming working out how to block people on RUclips!
@@billmcdermott9647 Nah, he can't stand when someone shows him how daft he is & he is Deleting everything that is said to Him whilst leaving what He has said in retort. As he has done to me. Unless one is praising him up & agreeing with his crap, one is not Allowed to comment about this loon 'theory' that holds no water At All. Go down the thread, you should be able to work it out.
@@thehouseoflechmere9407 . Why anyone should want the video removed is beyond my understanding. The only time I come across this is in the academic world especially with historians who may have a vested interest in suppressing other theories. Whilst I an not one hundred percent convinced by your theory I found your reasoning and presentation of the mainly circumstantial evidence in each murder plausible. Far more plausible than some. My son in law is a detective and we have both watched your videos. His comment was that your man would be high up on suspect list even after the first murder. His actions would make any modern police officer suspicious.
From the moment I first saw Christer Holmgren's interview and the subsequent work done on this channel it's been clear to me that Lechmere is far and away the likeliest perpetrator. Merely by considering his actions when discovered alone with the body: As a psychopath he is able to keep his emotions/stress under control. He chose to stay by the body and his subsequent actions are clearly in the service of plausible deniability. 1.He enlists help - by stopping and telling Paul what he has seen he creates a template of himself as 'discoverer/observer' a passive agent, rather than 'perpetrator/suspect' an active agent. Once this role is established and unwittingly corroborated by Paul it is never challenged. 2.He shows concern for the victim but not so much that he looks to be faking it (like Paul he mentions that he's late for work and anxious to get moving, introducing a realistic quantum of self-interest). 3. He leaves the crime scene with another witness which confers upon Lechmere an appearance of unwitting and innocent observer interchangeable with Paul. This enhances Lechmere's credibility as a passive observer caught up in a murder rather than as a perpetrator looking to deflect or deny guilt. 10 or so minutes after the murder he is hiding in plain sight. He's able to disguise his escape from the murder scene as an offer of help. Simple and completely effective. 4. He engages with law enforcement (P.C. Mizen) and makes a point of volunteering information to the police, telling Mizen he's wanted in Buck's Row and simultaneously creating in Mizen's mind the implication that he (Lechmere) has already had contact with law enforcement at the crime scene and been cleared of immediate suspicion and told to go and find another beat constable. This is really the crux of the 'Mizen Scam'. As luck would have it P.C.Neil is with the body when Mizen arrives at the crime scene. His delay in going immediately and continuing to knock up residents works to Lechmere's advantage. Lechmere has further underlined his role as co-operator whilst at the same time staying passive and 'dis-interested'. He subsequently fades from view until his appearance at the inquest. 5. Passive and dis-interested. Lechmere does nothing to 'take charge' or arouse suspicion that he is controlling events when he is with Paul at the body. We know why he's reluctant to touch Polly (her injuries will quickly become evident if she's moved) but he's able to play his motives off as fear and/or queasiness. This helps to establish a picture of a man who is sheepish, repulsed by violence and the results of violence and thus essentially non-violent by nature. A brilliant distancing strategy, cementing notions of 'weakness', deference to authority and a lack of masculinity. All of these traits are contrary to standard Victorian notions of how a killer thinks and acts. Lechmere wants to be seen as 'soft' in the tough East End.
It never ceases to amaze me how Victorian police surgeons apparently got to the scene so quickly given someone has to get to their house, knock up a servant, summon the master, explain what they want, wait for them to get dressed, grab their bag and run to the scene of the crime. They were never that quick for me even 100 years later with the benefit of telephones and the internal combustion engine!
If Charles wasn't Jack the Ripper then he was the one who disturbed Jack the Ripper, we know Jack covered Polly and did not leave her on display. Yet it is hard to find evidence that Charles was the one who disturbed Jack the Ripper. Charles was found by Paul near the body around the time of the murder. Paul was only 30 or 40 metres away when he first noticed Charles and was not aware of him when he was walking down Bucks Row, despite being on his guard because he knew the area could be dangerous. That means when Paul entered Bucks Row, Charles was already with the body, and it would be another minute before Paul noticed Charles. What was Charles doing during that time? So if Charles was innocent we have him alone with the body for at least a minute (probably longer) doing what?
Paul comes through Bucks row trying to get to work. A stranger compels him to observe a woman laying on the ground. Paul checks her out and pulls down her dress not knowing the damage that has been done. He doesn’t realize she’s nearly been decapitated. So he suggests helping her up. Why then would Charles refuse to touch her if he was the agent that demanded Paul get involved in the first place? It makes no sense unless Charles knew what would happen if they did try to sit her up. He heard Paul coming when he entered Bucks Row. He had 20-30 seconds to hide his knife and pull down her dress and lift it up to cover her neck. He did what a psychopath would do. Go into manipulation mode.
@@davesmith7432 That makes the most sense to me. Psychopaths are able to think far more clearly than a 'normal' person under stressful and chaotic conditions, even if that person is a criminal.
A couple of minutes isn't long during a dramatic event such as finding a body. I don't think we should place too much credence in someone's behaviour, stress and shock can have a great effect. She may of been murdered at 3:30 or 3:40 we simply don't know. It could be Cross and Paul or nether. Either way nobody heard anything, yet someone did it or placed her there around that time but it was missed. That we do know, but why if so many were awake...they'd rather not get involved?
@@rob5944 It was dark and there was no sound heard, therefore, even if "so many were awake" as you asserted, and they were looking outside at that time they wouldn't have necessarily seen anything. The fact that PC Mizen is "knocking up" people's houses tells me that most people were still asleep and only those who had an early start were already awake or waking up. Given the timings of Paul and Lechmere , estimated time of death of Nichols and PC Neil's beat I don't see anyone other than Lechmere being responsible for her murder. Paul wouldn't have mentioned the other carman (Lechmere / Cross ) let alone given a newspaper interview, if he was responsible for her death or in cahoots with Lechmere.
A couple of minutes is a long time if you are supposedly doing nothing, and we have no idea how long he was alone with Polly. If Paul sees Lechmere before Lechmere sees the body that would clear him, but he didn't so he is a logical suspect.@@rob5944
Yes I agree entirely..these videos are excellent Edward..well filmed and explained. I'm surprised you haven't got as many views as you should have on these videos
Nothing changes ~ about 20 years ago in the early hours of the night I heard a panicked man running from the scene of a murder, twice tried to report this to police the next day only to be told a door to door enquiry had already been completed, then with gloved hand shoved in my face “if it’s relevant an officer will call at your door” I tried to explain which door but the cop became enraged and shouted the same sentence repeatedly each time louder. I can only assume they’d already decided to call it a suicide which needs a lot less paperwork.
Three things come to mind: 1. If the goods train was running late it would change things and he may even have coincided killing her with the sound of the train to mask the noise. He is after all an opportunist even though the murders were pre-meditated. 2.Lechmere may have met Polly there or elsewhere and even been in the street with her slightly earlier but may have been waiting to be certain the coast was clear before killing her. So we cannot assume he killed Polly the moment they arrived at the scene of death, not with the police having a regular patrol that Lechmere would have known about. I think he would have waited if he'd known those times or targeted a time when he knew the patrols were not going past the end of the street. This was a regular route for him. He didn't ever get caught so he wasn't out of control, though he did take risks. He may have shagged her before killing her which would've placed him there even earlier, but i somehow doubt it since it would appear that the killing is his main prerogative and he would've needed to keep his eyes and ears open to comings and goings, which he couldn't have done if he was shagging her. The less time he was with her the better for him. So he wouldn't have trawled all over London with her before killing her because it would have increased the likelihood of witnesses. So the initial meeting spot would've most likely been there or quite close by i would've thought. I do wonder how many other women had narrow escapes at his hands as on those occasions there were sudden witnesses, causing him to abort the plan. 3.Lechmere's stated time of leaving home is already under question as he was not seen walking to the street by Robert Paul which he would have been if his stated time was the truth. You already addressed this thoroughly several times. We know what time Paul arrived so his time of leaving home is more verifiable. So just by that alone we know Lechmere was lying/mistaken about his time of leaving plus he then lied/diminished the facts by not telling the police there was a dead woman in the street so he could make a quicker getaway, plus he lied when giving a false name at the inquest. So there's 3 lies already before we debate which neighbour to believe. Harriet hearing something like a cry but not bothering to go to look suggests that it wasn't that big a deal. It could've been someone having sex with a woman up against a wall, and not necessarily Polly and not necessarily Lechmere. So even if she's telling the truth it doesn't tie it to the deceased strongly enough. Plus, If she'd really heard something disturbing, why wait a week to tell anyone? Plus we don't know if she was a drinker, a natural born liar, an attention-seeker, etc. In the Yorkshire ripper case, the number of people giving worthless testimony meant the floor needed reinforcing due to the weight of bs coming from the public. However, mixed in with the bs was everything they needed to get Sutcliffe, but it was buried under all the false accusations and misleading testimonies. Personally it's pretty clear that Polly died in that street and when she died, as i don't think Lechmere would have risked dragging a body through empty streets that were regularly patrolled by police, just to place her in that spot. Plus as you said, there would've been a blood trail unless she was strangled 1st then dragged to the stabbing point. But what would've been the point in that? There would have been far less risky places to dump a body. Also i don't believe the blood would've flowed like it did when the police arrived if she had been killed prior to being stabbed. So we know where she died, how she died, and it's pretty clear when she died. However, he could easily have picked her up elsewhere and then walked with her, stalling, until he got to a time and a place where he felt it was now or never. You can see from the night where he killed 2 women that this is a guy who was on the lookout for that window of opportunity, however slight, and as soon as he got it, he struck. Thanks for another excellent video
A good post! Imo Lechmere may have met Polly sleeping in buck's row and attacked there right away OR met her in Whitechapel Road and moved on with her to bucks row from there (Polly thinking she got a client)
Eyewitnesz arent reliable I know first hand. My wife and i were pulled over by police and told we matched description of shotting suspects. Id just gotten of work and we had proof and we allowed pol8ce to search our vehicle and the found nothing. The police made me stand behind my truck and had the witness/victims of shooting pull up across the road to see if they could identify me. They of course said it was me but the police seeing the proof i had been at work and finding no weapon let us go after writting our statements. Couldve been way different with aggressive police. Now any tv or movie using eyewitnessez makes me cringe so bad to put any weight on it
Thank you Edward, so pleased to see another video, I love how you investigate so thoroughly and loved the visuals and Lechmere in colour and as a younger man, looking forward to your next video aleady.
Interesting counter argument, good job. I grew up in London in the 80s. On a typical Friday night you have the pubs emptying between 11-12pm and the streets could be quite busy. The clubs kicked out around 2am but the dispersal of clubbers by taxi and in different directions meant the 2am streets were nothing like the streets at midnight. Do you know what the situation was like in 1888? How busy were the main streets in the early hours of a Saturday morning? When did it quieten down sufficiently that it small crowds disappeared to be replaced by single pedestrains?
I find it all very interesting. It's great we have archives with so much relevant information, although much has been lost. I sometimes wonder, if JTR was a sailor, and there are similar crimes before or after in Rio, Cape Town, Marseille etc, there's a world of ports, would we know if there were murders in say Bolivia, Haiti, China, Kenya? I wonder if anyone has looked around 5 years either way, for a similar spate of killings. It is possible in theory that JTR is a known convicted killer in another country, and no-one made the connection.
That stainless steel monstrosity on Durward St ought to be faced with Victorian railway brick at once - it's the second biggest crime that happened on that thoroughfare.
London has been systematically destroyed for years by corporate greed and property developers. They have no regard for culture or heritage. .The last time i visited the murder sites in 2007, The original cobblestones of Mitre square have been ripped up and Dorset street has been completely obliterated. When i visited Dorset street, you could still see the old entrance on the curb to Millers court. Im so glad i took the opportunity to visit these sites when i did.
Not being anything but a causal viewer of the subject, it's clear to me (from this and the 5 guilt videos) that Lechmere is either the murder of Nicolls or the discoverer of the body. There seems to be nothing definitive (nor is there likely to be) other than that. He should certainly have been investigated by the Police. I have to say, given the way he came forward to the other witness and then to the Coroner, it's understandable why 1888 Police would have viewed him as a suspect. It's the wrong sort of behaviour (although conversely we know it's exactly the sort of behaviour we might expect of a serial killer based on modern evidence and understanding of the psychology). The interview here is far from definitive as its not clear when the train is heard vis a vis the "murder" sounds or when those noises were actually heard. The voices could have been the Lechmere or the Police discovering the body, but again there's no definitive linked to the "murder" sounds in terms of elapsed time. When a person drifting into or out of sleep many minutes may go by in an "instant" from the witnesses perspective. The murder sounds were clearly quite quiet and not obviously threatening/worrying when they were heard. It is also possible that the sounds were exaggerated. It strikes me that the lack of blood on the Body at discovery by Lechmere and then PC Neil some 5 ? minuted later is suggestive that Lechmere found the body very very soon after the murder happened (enough to be the guilty party) and that Nichols was probably strangled during being restrained (forearm around the neck from behind ?) and already dead when the wounds were made. It's hard to believe Lechmere didnt disturb the murder and see/hear Jack if it want him. I'm not clear just how dark it was (certainly dark compared to modern cities), but it seems Lechmere was visible at least as a shape from some distance away (40 to 50 metres ?). It is surprising that Robert Paul didnt see him previously given the apparent distance and their common passage. However, it is possible that Lechmere did "freeze" from shock for many seconds perhaps minutes before he decided to examine her. Clearly he and Paul decided not to get involved (it's hard to believe they didnt consider her to be dead). Its a shame we dont have more information from Paul on their conversation before and after meeting PC Mizen.
@@susanclapp1721 circumstantial maybe, but no hard evidence. He’s by far the most likely out of the known suspects, but it could well be an unknown perpetrator. Unlikely given all the facts at hand, however. . So he would need to be ruled out, certainly, but it cannot be ascertained if he was definitely responsible. Yet.
@@Dude0000absolutely. But while there's been a few serial killers that have been convicted on just circumstantial evidence but with no hard evidence... like the latest serial baby killer nurse Lucy Letby. And this is with today's technology and CCTV.. back then there was nothing but just swearing on the Bible and taking someone's word for it. If there's to much circumstantial evidence it can add up and musn'tbe overlooked. And also back then no one followed the case up. So I'd say untill that person was fully investigated by the authorities the finger points in Lechmere's direction. That just my personal opinion.
Whether by design or accident, the animated 3d model of Lechmere is incredibly unsettling. More so when one takes into consideration this may have been the last face the victims saw... Even the real life photo of him as an elderly gent' seems to have a deadness to the eyes.
Good episode Ed! What amazes me still today is that another Edward Stow will be trying to solve this mystery in 135 years time even though the finger still points to Lechmere with all the findings! Great to be an investigator tho, keep up the good work Mr Stow! 👏👏
I'm amazed the way this particular video has sent some of the anti Lechmere's in a complete meltdown. If the likes of Mathew Lawton and his 'many disguises' are so against the idea of Lechmere being the perfect suspect...then why bother coming on here arguing the toss....Insulting and using bad language, and trying to get this channel unsuccessfully shut down. It clearly shows the strength of Lechmere being JtR. Edward Stows video's are sending these people in a frantic frenzied explosion of overload. They need to get a life and get outdoors more.
There has to be more to it other than just disaggreing. You disaggre, you say your peace and that should be that - but not with Lawton. He goes into a mad frenzy when you mention Lechmere as the potential killer. There must be another reason.
@@PEMBYSGAMINGWORLD Mathew Lawton may have the same mental issues of that as a serial killer? Maybe thats the next thing on his agenda ha. Just for the record if some think I'm serious...its a joke.
Firstly, there is No evidence let alone Proof, that Cross lived at that address & so, no Proof that Cross is Lechmere. An inquest document online - Chas. Andrew Cross. The fact of the matter is - no killer, let alone a Knife killer, would approach a witness who has Seen him now, then walks away chatting with him & then makes himself Known to the Cops. Then, continues skulking around the streets in the early morning hours when Many people know he was on the scene of that victim & he is Known to More of the cops because he did go to the inquest. Even if Cross is actually Lechmere, who lived in Whitechapel his whole life & worked at Pickfords for over 20 years, then he is Well Known to loads of locals & work colleagues & as a carman, also business associates. A couple of Morons make a doc & fooltube videos putting about that - he continued walking the streets in the black early morning hours for Weeks & carried on approaching prostitutes In Front of people & did the killings with the same & much worse MO. LOL. Really?? All the jibber jabber about 'times' for 3 cops & 2 other men is boring as all hell Childish friggin Bunk, nobody will Ever get it sorted. 5 men have No Idea what time they were where. End of. Each one says a time, each newspaper states various times & Christer made up His own time to suit his stupidass 'theory' about a guy by the name of Charles A. Cross & Christer does Not Know his home address. Putting modern font on a page with 1888 newspaper headers above, is Not proof of Cross' home address. The professional hypnotist Stealthy Eddy Stow has made up His own 'times' to suit His mind numbing Gobshite & repeats it all over & over as his Brainwashing tactic. LOL. There most certainly Were other males who came across other of the bodies. Cross sure Did raise the alarm Straight Away, he did Not keep walking on down the road. It is very understandable considering the Times & the conditions for that area in 1888, that when he saw a woman who lay prone on the ground, his thoughts went to someone who had maybe been attacked & as there were lots of prostitutes who roamed around in the early morning hours, he was very well aware that would be the case & as they were known to Drink, his first thoughts did not turn to murder. If I was a male back then in Whitechapel, I sure as hell would Not have wanted to be the male to try & wake her up at 3.30 a.m., all by myself, at the very least, in whatever state, she could have just started screaming. He did Nothing wrong. I do Not believe the Rubbish from Holmgren or Stow, both dopes who think they are smarter than all the police involved including Inspector Abberline from Scotland Yard who was brought in after the murder of Mary Ann Nichols, as he knew Whitechapel very well. And BTW - in regards to Nichols, there were Two cuts to her throat plus 2 stabs to the vagina, several stabs & cuts to the abdomen causing the Bowels to Protrude through the abdomen. Now you are Informed of the basics, pleease don't carry on as if there would have been no blood on that friggin Knife, or anywhere else. In the black of night down that road with high buildings both sides, the killer would Not have Known about blood on his person, clothes or shoes. End of. And FYI - Mary Ann had bruises on her face And on her hands, meaning, she put up a Fight. And people are drinking the Kool-Aid no matter the lunacy of the dumb as dog doo ‘reasoning’ behind the blather. Jeez.
"I then woke my husband, and said to him, 'I don't know what possesses me, but I cannot sleep tonight.'" "Yes," growled my husband. "I know the bloody feeling..."
Interesting that the people in the houses within a few feet, of the place of the murder, some who slept very lightly, never heard Paul talking to Lechmere Cross, or light murmuring to each other, footsteps when he walked towards Paul, to stop and tell him about a woman laying on the floor, in the street. Later the Police in the area with the lanterns flashing about all up and down the street, you would have imagined. But only knew about, what had occurred, when the door's were knocked on, later by the Police. No one heard, not even Paul or Cross Lechmere saying one word to each other, at a stressful time for any normal person, to be confronted with, at such an early hour in the morning. You would think, the persons would have been somewhat agitated, in an excitable condition, or were they just so cool about it all, that they never even raised one hair on the back of their neck, after seeing what was before them at such an early hour.
She gave the account one week later. I don't know about you guys, but I can't accurately state events affecting me two days ago. 😄 I'm sure, like most witnesses, she meant well, but it all serms a bit 'built on quicksand'
There is a lot of circumstantial evidence concerning Charles and I understand that people have been convicted on circumstantial evidence alone . What do you consider the most damning evidence ?
So...days after the story came out, all of a sudden everyone has a story. These simple people wanted to feel important and possibly helpful, so they embellished their 'witness' statements.
I think it was him,he knew the area well,he lived or worked near to all the murder sites,he was found leaning over the body of one of the victims while blood was still flowing.He worked in a local meat market so blood stained clothing was normal for him
Firstly, there is No evidence let alone Proof, that Cross is Lechmere. The fact of the matter is - no killer, let alone a Knife killer, would approach a witness who has Seen him now, then walks away chatting with him & then makes himself Known to the Cops. Then, continues skulking around the streets in the early morning hours for Weeks when Many people know he was at the scene for that victim & he is Known to more of the Cops because he did go to the inquest. Even if Cross is actually Lechmere, who lived in Whitechapel his whole life & worked at Pickfords for over 20 years, then he is Well Known to loads of locals & work colleagues & as a carman, also business associates. Yet this moron says he continued walking the streets & carried on approaching prostitutes In Front of people & did the killings with the same & much worse MO. And people are drinking the cool aid like a pack of Idiots.
If Harriet Lilley was correct, we know that Polly was looking for a customer - perhaps Lechmere was a client and that's what the gasps were (3:30am). I think one of the policemen went down Buck's Row between then and the murder but Polly, as well as Lechmere, would have been keen to hide from any police. So he didn't kill her until just before 3:40am. And Paul turned up, etc. This is just my thoughts on how Mrs Lilley AND all the other evidence could be right! She probably dreamt it though!
I'm fascinated by JTR. And this channnel is brilliant. But this debate seems to rely on totally accepting the eye witness accounts of those who support a certain theory and ignoring those which don't. ie believing those who heard nothing, ignoring those who heard something. Also the obsession with a ten minute time period - at a time when few had access to watches and clocks etc.
If they rely on this woman’s testimony to discredit Chuck, there goes the idea of jtr running away in his noisy boots after hearing Lechmere coming his way.
Firstly, there is No evidence let alone Proof, that Cross is Lechmere. The fact of the matter is - no killer, let alone a Knife killer, would approach a witness who has Seen him now, then walks away chatting with him & then makes himself Known to the Cops. Then, continues skulking around the streets in the early morning hours for Weeks when Many people know he was at the scene for that victim & he is Known to more of the Cops because he did go to the inquest. Even if Cross is actually Lechmere, who lived in Whitechapel his whole life & worked at Pickfords for over 20 years, then he is Well Known to loads of locals & work colleagues & as a carman, also business associates. Yet this moron says he continued walking the streets & carried on approaching prostitutes In Front of people & did the killings with the same & much worse MO. And people are drinking the cool aid like a pack of Idiots.
None of the men who lived in Whitechapel were definitively cleared. This includes and is not limited to Lechmere. Some the police interviewed but as we have seen from many other murder cases, it is not uncommon for the police to interview the murderer at some point in the investigation and perhaps buy into his alibi or not have enough evidence to hold the suspect.
I wonder why the police didn’t interview Lechmere after the murder of Annie. If they wanted Paul, why not? And why wouldn’t Paul ask them? If for any reason to pass the heat back on Lechmere. This has been an interesting video, mrs Lillys account although flawed, reminds me of how brazen this murder was. Thanks for helping clarify her testimony, good video!
Because the police were not quite on the ball. Just like nearly a hundred years later in Yorkshire when there was another delivery driver Ripper going around.
Your videos are excellent! I'm currently writing a novel from JTRs perspective and Lechmere is my killer. In my book... Lechmere killed Nicholas on his way to work and in his mind he was almost caught. He wouldn't make that mistake again. After that murder he would take off work or just wouldn't show up. I sure would love to talk to you in person... some of the details are beyond shocking. Imagine coming home to your wife with a kidney in your pocket?! Keep those videos coming!
Thanks for the new video! Just a thought, Lechmere could first have strangled Polly to unconsciousness (but not to death yet), next made the abdominal rippings, then strangled more so that the heart stopped and last cut the throat which finally killed her. That would fit better with the fact no blood had came out yet as Robert Paul arrived to the scene
You can believe whatever dumb, ridiculous fantasy you want pal but the FACTS say otherwise. There is literally NO evidence against Lechmere whatsoever, NOTHING!!!!.....On the other hand, there is quite a bit of evidence against Kosminski@@masan7452
Mr Stow, I wonder if you could adress a couple of points in evidence that I find rather odd. 1. Lechmere is reported as wearing a carter’s apron when giving evidence at the inquest. It seems unusual that he would do so, or alternatively that the paper would comment on it. Have you read of the like in other inquests from the period? Could Lechmere have been attempting to emphasise that he had a reason to be at the murder scene? 2. It also strikes me as odd that the scrap of apron discovered by PC Long after the murder of Eddowes was recognised as related to the murder. Do you know if anyone commented on this at the time? Was it drawn to his notice due to its proximity to the graffito? Surely blood-stained scraps of linen would have been quote common in the East End streets and tenements ?
Point 1. I think Lechmere wore his apron in the witness box to emphasise his irrelevance as a harmless bystander. People tended to dress up when they appeared in court, not dress down. Point 2. The bloody apron was only noticed to be part of Catherine Eddowes apron later on. I doubt there were many bloody rags randomly left around the East End.
I think that the PC noticed the bloody apron piece before he then noticed the graffiti. He looked into the entrance doorway, noticed the rag, inspected it and then noticed the graffiti. As we know, the graffiti may have had nothing to do with the murders and been entirely coincidental.
All this confusion over times, if Mizen had looked to his right going to the murder scene from behind the Board school, he would have seen the hospital clock (still visible today from the same place). Had to be illuminated surely?
Surly tests could be done to see how long it would take for the blood in the saturated clothing to reach the floor.And if her heart was still faintly pumping ,this would assist the flow of blood,that is until she expired. Perhaps Only one of the two men knew that there was blood on the body & that is why he didn't want to touch it.
Why are all these women awake 11:59 at 4am pacing the floor, but they claim to have heard nothing. Contradiction! I think they may have been afraid the killer would come for them if they divulged what they witnessed.
Agreed. Since the papers give the addresses of those who make statements, they likely thought it might have been gang violence and didn't want to get involved. Or they didn't want to get pulled into the inquest and possibly miss work. This was before the case was made famous, and the name Jack the Ripper was coined. There may have been others who heard or saw something...and they chose to keep it to themselves for the same reasons.
If the Ripper murders occurred today, would the police fare any better than they did in 1888? I doubt it. Look how long the Yorkshire Ripper was active, and that was in the 1970s-80s. Catching a serial killer is the most difficult task a police force is faced with. But Lechmere is the most favourable suspect, in my opinion, and I’ve read lots of books, including Dan Farson’s, which was my first back in the 1970s. But l can’t quite get my head around Lechmere being the Thames’ Torso murderer. The MO is completely different. Does a Leopard ever change its spots?
Regarding eye witness testimoney - i was once picked out in a police line-up. I had simply been asked on the street by police earlier that day to attend the line-up, because i looked like a suspect they already had in custody. I proved my whereabouts, we laughed.
When the carotid artery is cut there is an arterial spray of blood. The killer would most likely have been bloodstained to a degree. If the wound was that fresh it doesn't explain how the blood seeped slowly. I cant quite get to grips with this part of the evidence
They think he strangled them first due to lack of arterial spray at the crime scenes. If heart is stopped before the throat is cut it wouldn't spray much
Only if the victim's heart is beating. She was strangled first so, there would be no blood pressure to cause a spray. Please watch the video before making these types of comments.
To be less gracious about Harriet Lilley, is it likely that the press would pay alleged witnesses for an interview back then? If so that could be a big incentive for her to lie or at least embellish her story. Also, I assume they would probably pay a bit more to someone who had more of a story to tell, as opposed to someone saying they heard nothing. Or am I just too cynical?
Judging by the lack of blood at the crime scene and Robert Pauls belief that Polly Nicholls chest was moving, he did not think at the time of being found that she was dead. Also the coroners time of death indicates that this was a very recent kill. The coroner estimated around 03:40 to 03:45. Any earlier time frame, the blood loss would have been evident. Given that Lechmere and Paul were both in close proximity to the deceased, they could not have failed to see the blood loss. Although Bucks row was in darkness and shadow at that time of the morning, Lechmere was still able to make out what he stated as a tarpaulin lying in the stable yard entrance from across the street if this statement is to be taken as truth? PC Neal who arrived on scene minutes later noticed the blood loss immediately albeit by his lamp light. Poor Polly Nicholls probably brought her killer to the spot where she was murdered. She was probably plying her trade on the Whitechapel road so yes, Lechmere probably left home earlier than he said in search of a victim.
Yes it's very possible, just like it's very possible he didnt really think the lump lying there might be a useful tarpaulin. That makes no sense whatsoever. He could get hold of a tarpaulin at Pickfords any time. And what was he going to do with it? Lug it all the way to work? Take it home making him 20 minutes or so late?
@KingBritish So you think its impossible that Lechmere actually left earlier than he said... depending on what time you think he said as two distinct reports had him saying 3.20
@@thehouseoflechmere9407 Maybe another reason for turning up at the inquest was to also stave off any door knocking police enquiries where his wife might remember that he left for work earlier that morning.
You would think that the police would have focused in more on the first person to witness the body. When you take into account the times mentioned by Lechmere/Cross, Paul, PC Niel and PC Mizen, you're talking minutes or even seconds. Just this very narrow time frame alone does leave a huge red flag over Lechmere/Cross. And the police never even considered him. No wonder the true identity of JTR remains a mystery because the police failed to follow him up. We're talking the FIRST person to witness the body here. Sometimes the obvious can be staring you right in the face. We will never know for sure who JTR was, but Lechmere/Cross would be of huge interest.
Firstly, there is No evidence let alone Proof, that Cross is Lechmere. Next - you kids are soo easily led down the yellow brick road, you don't even Know that Cross was Not the only male to come across one of the bodies. Jeez. The fact of the matter is - no killer, let alone a Knife killer, would approach a witness who has Seen him now, then walks away chatting with him & then makes himself Known to the Cops. Then, continues skulking around the streets in the early morning hours when Many people know he was on the scene of that victim & he is Known to More of the cops because he did go to the inquest. Even if Cross is actually Lechmere, who lived in Whitechapel his whole life & worked at Pickfords for over 20 years, then he is Well Known to loads of locals & work colleagues & as a carman, also business associates. A couple of Morons make a doc & fooltube videos putting about that - he continued walking the streets in the black early morning hours for Weeks & carried on approaching prostitutes In Front of people & did the killings with the same & much worse MO. And people are drinking the cool aid like a pack of Idiots. LMAO.
LOL His theory consists of nothing more than circumstantial evidence that could be said of about 1000 other men, who were around there at that time...Quite a bit of evidence for Kosminski being JTR. Literally NOTHING for Lechmere
@jimlewis2395 Circumstantial evidence can convict. You will be interested in mu next film - lol. Also I recommend you watchbmy series 'The Evidence for Guilt'.
OK. Then the circumstantial evidence will also have to "convict" those 1000 other men too and not just Lechmere....Zero REAL evidence against Lechmere and quite a bit of it against Kaminsky@@thehouseoflechmere9407
@jimlewis2395 your obviously a complete buffoon. All that exists on the ripper case circumstantial evidence just more points to lechmere than any of the other suspects. Like Bruce Hornsbey and the range once said " That's just the way it is" unfortunately nothing you or your little band of bummers can do to change it. It's history lechmere walked those routes at those times and was seen over a suspect looking suspicious you can't change that it happened get over it. It's obvious it makes your blood boil you sad little being
If people are outside my house in the early morning talking I would not hear them as I would be asleep! Plus these people are used to the noises of the night and would sleep through anything after the hard labour they would be doing during the day, and their bedroom might be at the rear.
Robert Paul mentioned about the locality Buck's Row that many been knocked down there as there's horrible gangs there at the spot, obviously referring either the Buck's Row as a whole or that end of Bucks'Row. The locals maybe were used to hear odd sounds on regular bases at night
@@KingBritish When the police arrived and there was all that commotion, why didn't Lilley just go outside and say "ya know I heard a painful moan and whispers around 3.30 just as the train came along"? I'll give you a likely answer. Because she hadn't yet made up her story. Took her a week to think it up.
Outstanding work as usual! I am reading Sugden's complete history of JTR and there was something I immediately noticed, for the Annie Chapman murder the coroner, iirc, set the time at an hour that would have been too late for Lechmere to be on his way to work, how do you explain this? Is it possible that he didn't go that day, or sneaked away while waiting to load his cart, or that the coroner was wrong? Thank you!!!
The coroner actually gave an earlier time for Chapman to have been killed, based on 4 points. This supports Lechmere killing her on his way to work. JTR didnt kill in daylight. He used darkness.
@@thehouseoflechmere9407 I think so too. I can't see 'Jack' killing in the morning light, as people are up and going about their business with windows looking down on the back yard, now in light. I'm certain he killed Annie at the earlier time.
Train times weren't and in this video I mainly discuss relative times. Eg that polly had been dead for half an hour and it can be gauged, irrespective of the o'clock time, that this coincided with Lechmere seeing Paul. Also there were clocks such as the one at the nearby brewery. Time wasn't a vague concept in 1888 due to a lack of wristwatches.
As ever, I'm more in concurrence with lines of enquiry than points of elimination. The vital quotient is that you're always an interesting listen, Edward.
I don't see why the killer might of been with the body for up to ten minutes. This makes it feasible for Cross to have been seen by Paul at 3:40. Ten minutes is not that long to subdue, kill and mutilate and celebrate in his actions. However the other potential witnesses may of been asleep or dozing when the noises are alleged to of occurred. Furthermore a low moan and hushed voices wouldn't have disturbed them, just because one person sees or hears something doesn't necessarily mean everyone in a particular vicinity will. I think it's important to keep that in mind.
Firstly, there is No evidence let alone Proof, that Cross is Lechmere. The fact of the matter is - no killer, let alone a Knife killer, would approach a witness who has Seen him now, then walks away chatting with him & then makes himself Known to the Cops. Then, continues skulking around the streets in the early morning hours for Weeks when Many people know he was at the scene for that victim & he is Known to more of the Cops because he did go to the inquest. Even if Cross is actually Lechmere, who lived in Whitechapel his whole life & worked at Pickfords for over 20 years, then he is Well Known to loads of locals & work colleagues & as a carman, also business associates. Yet this moron says he continued walking the streets & carried on approaching prostitutes In Front of people & did the killings with the same & much worse MO. And people are drinking the cool aid like a pack of Idiots.
Not really as it would not make sense that he would have been hanging around for ten or fifteen minutes after the murder. It would have taken less than perhaps four minutes to commit then he'd be gone, no waiting around. Based on the timings available, it would have been committed shortly before 3.45am or we might say between 3.40 and 3.45. If we suggest the murder took place at 3.30 exactly, that would exonerate Lechmere.
@@huckleberry10ful ,Hi again, I think I made that comment after reading about the Heart. General research claims the heart can continue beating for between 15 to 40 minutes after brain death. - Of course Lechmere is still No.1 suspect
Although Im firmly in the Lechmere camp, I cant help thinking whether the killer would have silenced Paul as initially he couldn't have known what he'd seen. Paul would've presumably died quickly - No fast response London Ambulance service in the 1880s. Its just niggling at me would he not have tried to silence a potential witness who'd seen his face rather than bluff it out. Either way when they both went off in search of help and Lechmere approached PC Mizen - if he was the killer he would have had nerves of steel as he must of had the murder weapon on him, as it was never found at the site of the murder.
Paul had his guard up (not in a physical boxing sense) and would’ve been a harder target than a woman with her guard down after presumingly ready to “service her client”.
@@andrewleah1983 Firstly, there is No evidence let alone Proof, that Cross is Lechmere. The fact of the matter is - no killer, let alone a Knife killer, would approach a witness who has Seen him now, then walks away chatting with him & then makes himself Known to the Cops. Then, continues skulking around the streets in the early morning hours for Weeks when Many people know he was at the scene for that victim & he is Known to more of the Cops because he did go to the inquest. Even if Cross is actually Lechmere, who lived in Whitechapel his whole life & worked at Pickfords for over 20 years, then he is Well Known to loads of locals & work colleagues & as a carman, also business associates. Yet this moron says he continued walking the streets & carried on approaching prostitutes In Front of people & did the killings with the same & much worse MO. And people are drinking the cool aid like a pack of Idiots.
Excellent episode Edward. Ive long thought the Harriet Lilley account was probably made up to get a bit of attention and, as you said, to connect herself to the murders. Its not unheard of. If I thought I'd heard somebody in trouble ("painful moan") I wouldn't go back to bed. Id be out the front telling the police when they arrived and there was all the commotion. Bit odd that a supposed ear witness didnt bother to do any of that. Just stayed inside, despite not being able to sleep? Hmmm.
I have been wondering since Paul and "Cross", supposedly didn't hear each other, were they in it together, or was a person in the Police Force in on it?
Always enjoy your information and I am with you on the suspect being Mr. Lechmere. As far as Lilley's testimony as a grand juror and I had been in the states for almost a year due to the covid period, I would have discounted her testimony for reason you had stated in your video. I would also have thought that if she heard moans and voices and being in the home facing the road that she would have looked out that window to see what is going on, as many of us would be curious to see in our own neighborhood any wrong doing. Been to London and had taken two tours of the area, I have a keen interest in this and being near my home the Lizzie Borden case as well. Keep up the good work sir ! Catch you on the next one !
JTR could not afford to have his victim scream. The area of the the murder was densely populated & someone was sure to wake up. He stifled the victim’s screams while strangling her, but how? IMO there were no screams. I also believe it was Lechemere.
Unless she'd been strangled before the throat was cut, lessening blood flow, making a 3:30 attack entirely possible. Nobody wanted to get involved, thats why they heard nothing. Yet somebody killed her, either in Bucks Row or elsewhere. Are we to believe it was done in total silence?
It takes a Long time to strangle someone to death so that is not likely. Think of something else that would kill & then the rest happened. And so, no splurge of blood from any of the severe injuries. Unfortunately no records survived from J ward so the various stories are from some newspaper articles that differ about the details.
@@rob5944 Nobody knows for sure, unless witnessed, no coroner can ever state an exact time of death. The records from J ward didn't survive, the 'times' in relation to Paul, Cross & the 3 cops talked about are made up by this con man channel operator. Various newspaper articles from back then differed with the info about times & who said what.
I do agree that Charles was the killer but why do you think he stopped as time went on? Or did it continue on a smaller scale? I would love to know what you think
@@thehouseoflechmere9407 You continue to put up on screen, that Fake newspaper clip that has Charles Allen Lechmere, his Name, as if from a newspaper article from back at that time. Yet you State that the witness's name was known to be Cross for over 100 years & Lechmere being him was Not Known About til recently. LMAO. You're not very bright are you pal.
@@thehouseoflechmere9407 Again, another banal retort. Listen up peoples - it's about the value of Praise for the Ego, for a start, but first & foremost, it's all about the Dollar. Be honest, for a change. You asked for it, there you go, you got it. And, you're welcome.
You're a character Ed. These videos on location need to continue.. It could be groundhog day but the 3.07 out of new cross is genius.. Average 27 minutes off passenger trains in the 1880s take 4 for stops in between and there's the approximate time of arrival at Bucks Row of about 3.30.. Regardless of each theory
@@thehouseoflechmere9407 me neither... I took it from the old 1885 timetables from the passenger trains in that era.. From the old London transport museum archives.. And most were 27 minute journeys.. With four stops in between.. But there was nothing for the overnight goods!
So he gave an alternative name he last used when he was 12, which made it more difficult for people who knew him to tie him to the case when they read the paper, and he took a while before he turned up to give his testimony, when most people would have wanted to help or have their fifteen minutes in the spotlight. Also, I seem to remember from another video that none of his descendants were aware that great-great-granddad had almost come face to face with JTR, which seems like the sort of story that would have been handed down in the family, given that we are still speculating about the whole thing even from abroad. So he likely didn’t go visit his mother and daughter and say “you’re not going to believe what happened to me on my way to work”, and if they read the newspaper they probably didn’t think he was this Cross guy, particularly when he had mentioned nothing… He’s either guilty as sin or deeply socially atypical.
A good point. An innocent bystander would struggle to keep quiet about their involvement in such a notorious crime. Maybe not bragging to strangers but at least confiding in family and friends and, if innocent expressing compassion and sympathy for the victim. Lechmere presumably stayed silent for the rest of his life. Guilty as sin.
Yes, to me that's one of the biggest red flags about him. It would be totally unnatural for him as an innocent witness to not tell his family, friends, and closest workmates. Yet he obviously didn't, and even went as far as giving a false name at the inquest to conceal to them his connection to the case. Sure, some people generally like to keep things to themselves, but such a degree of secrecy, under those circumstances, is highly suspicious.
@@iancavon7125 If he had nothing to hide, why hide??
@@iancavon7125 True but also consider this: Lechmere did also give the name 'Cross' at a previous inquest where he was involved in an accident where a boy died. However, he was completely innocent of any crime on that occasion and had no reason to obscure his identity. And yet, he gave the name 'Cross' when he was innocent. Therefore, we cannot presume that when he does this a second time at the Nicolls inquest this then makes him guilty. If he has form for using an alias when innocent, then doing this a second time does not prove anything. The only reasons I can think of that he would give the name Cross at both inquests is that he didn't want his family to find out about either or that he was known as Cross at work and was volunteering a name that would help him to be found by investigators later on if required.
I have had to block no less than three outraged protesters for this video.
One under his third identity, and one who is trying to get this channel closed down as he doesn't approve of the content.
I don't like deleting or removing people as I like to encourage all debate and its very complex and time consuming working out how to block people on RUclips!
You should take it as a sign…even if you are wrong and it’s not Charles …people are obviously threatened by your argument
Of course!
@@billmcdermott9647 Nah, he can't stand when someone shows him how daft he is & he is Deleting everything that is said to Him whilst leaving what He has said in retort. As he has done to me. Unless one is praising him up & agreeing with his crap, one is not Allowed to comment about this loon 'theory' that holds no water At All. Go down the thread, you should be able to work it out.
@@thehouseoflechmere9407 . Why anyone should want the video removed is beyond my understanding. The only time I come across this is in the academic world especially with historians who may have a vested interest in suppressing other theories. Whilst I an not one hundred percent convinced by your theory I found your reasoning and presentation of the mainly circumstantial evidence in each murder plausible. Far more plausible than some. My son in law is a detective and we have both watched your videos. His comment was that your man would be high up on suspect list even after the first murder. His actions would make any modern police officer suspicious.
From the moment I first saw Christer Holmgren's interview and the subsequent work done on this channel it's been clear to me that Lechmere is far and away the likeliest perpetrator. Merely by considering his actions when discovered alone with the body:
As a psychopath he is able to keep his emotions/stress under control. He chose to stay by the body and his subsequent actions are clearly in the service of plausible deniability.
1.He enlists help - by stopping and telling Paul what he has seen he creates a template of himself as 'discoverer/observer' a passive agent, rather than 'perpetrator/suspect' an active agent. Once this role is established and unwittingly corroborated by Paul it is never challenged.
2.He shows concern for the victim but not so much that he looks to be faking it (like Paul he mentions that he's late for work and anxious to get moving, introducing a realistic quantum of self-interest).
3. He leaves the crime scene with another witness which confers upon Lechmere an appearance of unwitting and innocent observer interchangeable with Paul. This enhances Lechmere's credibility as a passive observer caught up in a murder rather than as a perpetrator looking to deflect or deny guilt. 10 or so minutes after the murder he is hiding in plain sight. He's able to disguise his escape from the murder scene as an offer of help. Simple and completely effective.
4. He engages with law enforcement (P.C. Mizen) and makes a point of volunteering information to the police, telling Mizen he's wanted in Buck's Row and simultaneously creating in Mizen's mind the implication that he (Lechmere) has already had contact with law enforcement at the crime scene and been cleared of immediate suspicion and told to go and find another beat constable. This is really the crux of the 'Mizen Scam'. As luck would have it P.C.Neil is with the body when Mizen arrives at the crime scene. His delay in going immediately and continuing to knock up residents works to Lechmere's advantage. Lechmere has further underlined his role as co-operator whilst at the same time staying passive and 'dis-interested'.
He subsequently fades from view until his appearance at the inquest.
5. Passive and dis-interested. Lechmere does nothing to 'take charge' or arouse suspicion that he is controlling events when he is with Paul at the body. We know why he's reluctant to touch Polly (her injuries will quickly become evident if she's moved) but he's able to play his motives off as fear and/or queasiness. This helps to establish a picture of a man who is sheepish, repulsed by violence and the results of violence and thus essentially non-violent by nature. A brilliant distancing strategy, cementing notions of 'weakness', deference to authority and a lack of masculinity. All of these traits are contrary to standard Victorian notions of how a killer thinks and acts. Lechmere wants to be seen as 'soft' in the tough East End.
Very good observations
Excellent and very insightful post 👏
Harriet Lilly cant sleep and hears voices outside her window at 330.
Sleeps through hubbub of the discovery 15 min later.
Thanks for all the hard work your putting in Ed 👏
That’s exactly how I imagined Lechmere would look. Pretty kick ass animation.
Yes those images are excellent
It never ceases to amaze me how Victorian police surgeons apparently got to the scene so quickly given someone has to get to their house, knock up a servant, summon the master, explain what they want, wait for them to get dressed, grab their bag and run to the scene of the crime. They were never that quick for me even 100 years later with the benefit of telephones and the internal combustion engine!
If Charles wasn't Jack the Ripper then he was the one who disturbed Jack the Ripper, we know Jack covered Polly and did not leave her on display. Yet it is hard to find evidence that Charles was the one who disturbed Jack the Ripper. Charles was found by Paul near the body around the time of the murder. Paul was only 30 or 40 metres away when he first noticed Charles and was not aware of him when he was walking down Bucks Row, despite being on his guard because he knew the area could be dangerous. That means when Paul entered Bucks Row, Charles was already with the body, and it would be another minute before Paul noticed Charles. What was Charles doing during that time? So if Charles was innocent we have him alone with the body for at least a minute (probably longer) doing what?
Paul comes through Bucks row trying to get to work. A stranger compels him to observe a woman laying on the ground. Paul checks her out and pulls down her dress not knowing the damage that has been done. He doesn’t realize she’s nearly been decapitated. So he suggests helping her up. Why then would Charles refuse to touch her if he was the agent that demanded Paul get involved in the first place? It makes no sense unless Charles knew what would happen if they did try to sit her up.
He heard Paul coming when he entered Bucks Row. He had 20-30 seconds to hide his knife and pull down her dress and lift it up to cover her neck. He did what a psychopath would do. Go into manipulation mode.
@@davesmith7432 That makes the most sense to me. Psychopaths are able to think far more clearly than a 'normal' person under stressful and chaotic conditions, even if that person is a criminal.
A couple of minutes isn't long during a dramatic event such as finding a body. I don't think we should place too much credence in someone's behaviour, stress and shock can have a great effect. She may of been murdered at 3:30 or 3:40 we simply don't know. It could be Cross and Paul or nether. Either way nobody heard anything, yet someone did it or placed her there around that time but it was missed. That we do know, but why if so many were awake...they'd rather not get involved?
@@rob5944 It was dark and there was no sound heard, therefore, even if "so many were awake" as you asserted, and they were looking outside at that time they wouldn't have necessarily seen anything.
The fact that PC Mizen is "knocking up" people's houses tells me that most people were still asleep and only those who had an early start were already awake or waking up.
Given the timings of Paul and Lechmere , estimated time of death of Nichols and PC Neil's beat I don't see anyone other than Lechmere being responsible for her murder. Paul wouldn't have mentioned the other carman (Lechmere / Cross ) let alone given a newspaper interview, if he was responsible for her death or in cahoots with Lechmere.
A couple of minutes is a long time if you are supposedly doing nothing, and we have no idea how long he was alone with Polly. If Paul sees Lechmere before Lechmere sees the body that would clear him, but he didn't so he is a logical suspect.@@rob5944
Your videos are the best on this topic!!
Glad you like them!
Yes I agree entirely..these videos are excellent Edward..well filmed and explained. I'm surprised you haven't got as many views as you should have on these videos
Many thanks!
Brilliant stuff as always
Nothing changes ~ about 20 years ago in the early hours of the night I heard a panicked man running from the scene of a murder, twice tried to report this to police the next day only to be told a door to door enquiry had already been completed, then with gloved hand shoved in my face “if it’s relevant an officer will call at your door” I tried to explain which door but the cop became enraged and shouted the same sentence repeatedly each time louder. I can only assume they’d already decided to call it a suicide which needs a lot less paperwork.
Too many cops try to do the bare minimum at their jobs. I suppose that's not uncommon elsewhere.
Three things come to mind: 1. If the goods train was running late it would change things and he may even have coincided killing her with the sound of the train to mask the noise. He is after all an opportunist even though the murders were pre-meditated. 2.Lechmere may have met Polly there or elsewhere and even been in the street with her slightly earlier but may have been waiting to be certain the coast was clear before killing her. So we cannot assume he killed Polly the moment they arrived at the scene of death, not with the police having a regular patrol that Lechmere would have known about. I think he would have waited if he'd known those times or targeted a time when he knew the patrols were not going past the end of the street. This was a regular route for him. He didn't ever get caught so he wasn't out of control, though he did take risks. He may have shagged her before killing her which would've placed him there even earlier, but i somehow doubt it since it would appear that the killing is his main prerogative and he would've needed to keep his eyes and ears open to comings and goings, which he couldn't have done if he was shagging her. The less time he was with her the better for him. So he wouldn't have trawled all over London with her before killing her because it would have increased the likelihood of witnesses. So the initial meeting spot would've most likely been there or quite close by i would've thought. I do wonder how many other women had narrow escapes at his hands as on those occasions there were sudden witnesses, causing him to abort the plan. 3.Lechmere's stated time of leaving home is already under question as he was not seen walking to the street by Robert Paul which he would have been if his stated time was the truth. You already addressed this thoroughly several times. We know what time Paul arrived so his time of leaving home is more verifiable. So just by that alone we know Lechmere was lying/mistaken about his time of leaving plus he then lied/diminished the facts by not telling the police there was a dead woman in the street so he could make a quicker getaway, plus he lied when giving a false name at the inquest. So there's 3 lies already before we debate which neighbour to believe. Harriet hearing something like a cry but not bothering to go to look suggests that it wasn't that big a deal. It could've been someone having sex with a woman up against a wall, and not necessarily Polly and not necessarily Lechmere. So even if she's telling the truth it doesn't tie it to the deceased strongly enough. Plus, If she'd really heard something disturbing, why wait a week to tell anyone? Plus we don't know if she was a drinker, a natural born liar, an attention-seeker, etc. In the Yorkshire ripper case, the number of people giving worthless testimony meant the floor needed reinforcing due to the weight of bs coming from the public. However, mixed in with the bs was everything they needed to get Sutcliffe, but it was buried under all the false accusations and misleading testimonies. Personally it's pretty clear that Polly died in that street and when she died, as i don't think Lechmere would have risked dragging a body through empty streets that were regularly patrolled by police, just to place her in that spot. Plus as you said, there would've been a blood trail unless she was strangled 1st then dragged to the stabbing point. But what would've been the point in that? There would have been far less risky places to dump a body. Also i don't believe the blood would've flowed like it did when the police arrived if she had been killed prior to being stabbed. So we know where she died, how she died, and it's pretty clear when she died. However, he could easily have picked her up elsewhere and then walked with her, stalling, until he got to a time and a place where he felt it was now or never. You can see from the night where he killed 2 women that this is a guy who was on the lookout for that window of opportunity, however slight, and as soon as he got it, he struck. Thanks for another excellent video
A good post! Imo Lechmere may have met Polly sleeping in buck's row and attacked there right away OR met her in Whitechapel Road and moved on with her to bucks row from there (Polly thinking she got a client)
@@masan7452 yes she could've been sleeping or drunk or both and it would've made his job much easier
Fantastic video! I always get excited when a new one is posted.
Absolutely Amazing. Thank You So Much for this Video
So nice of you
Eyewitnesz arent reliable I know first hand. My wife and i were pulled over by police and told we matched description of shotting suspects. Id just gotten of work and we had proof and we allowed pol8ce to search our vehicle and the found nothing. The police made me stand behind my truck and had the witness/victims of shooting pull up across the road to see if they could identify me. They of course said it was me but the police seeing the proof i had been at work and finding no weapon let us go after writting our statements. Couldve been way different with aggressive police. Now any tv or movie using eyewitnessez makes me cringe so bad to put any weight on it
Good point
Thank you Edward, so pleased to see another video, I love how you investigate so thoroughly and loved the visuals and Lechmere in colour and as a younger man, looking forward to your next video aleady.
Glad you enjoyed it!
excellent Edward, great visuals, another excellent episode.
Thanks
Brilliant video, Ed. Thank you for sharing.
I'm glad you physically demonstrated the precise locations as they would of been in Bucks Row, that helps a lot.
Great video. Very informative.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I find your videos fascinating! I really enjoyed this one! 😃👍
Thank you very much!
Interesting counter argument, good job.
I grew up in London in the 80s. On a typical Friday night you have the pubs emptying between 11-12pm and the streets could be quite busy. The clubs kicked out around 2am but the dispersal of clubbers by taxi and in different directions meant the 2am streets were nothing like the streets at midnight.
Do you know what the situation was like in 1888? How busy were the main streets in the early hours of a Saturday morning? When did it quieten down sufficiently that it small crowds disappeared to be replaced by single pedestrains?
It was Friday morning. Whitechapel Road was still reasonably busy. The back streets were deserted.
I find it all very interesting. It's great we have archives with so much relevant information, although much has been lost. I sometimes wonder, if JTR was a sailor, and there are similar crimes before or after in Rio, Cape Town, Marseille etc, there's a world of ports, would we know if there were murders in say Bolivia, Haiti, China, Kenya? I wonder if anyone has looked around 5 years either way, for a similar spate of killings. It is possible in theory that JTR is a known convicted killer in another country, and no-one made the connection.
That stainless steel monstrosity on Durward St ought to be faced with Victorian railway brick at once - it's the second biggest crime that happened on that thoroughfare.
London has been systematically destroyed for years by corporate greed and property developers. They have no regard for culture or heritage. .The last time i visited the murder sites in 2007, The original cobblestones of Mitre square have been ripped up and Dorset street has been completely obliterated. When i visited Dorset street, you could still see the old entrance on the curb to Millers court. Im so glad i took the opportunity to visit these sites when i did.
Love your videos
Thanks
Brilliant Ed. Thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it
I love this channel👍 Thank you for all your effort ❤
Glad you enjoy it!
Not being anything but a causal viewer of the subject, it's clear to me (from this and the 5 guilt videos) that Lechmere is either the murder of Nicolls or the discoverer of the body. There seems to be nothing definitive (nor is there likely to be) other than that. He should certainly have been investigated by the Police. I have to say, given the way he came forward to the other witness and then to the Coroner, it's understandable why 1888 Police would have viewed him as a suspect. It's the wrong sort of behaviour (although conversely we know it's exactly the sort of behaviour we might expect of a serial killer based on modern evidence and understanding of the psychology).
The interview here is far from definitive as its not clear when the train is heard vis a vis the "murder" sounds or when those noises were actually heard. The voices could have been the Lechmere or the Police discovering the body, but again there's no definitive linked to the "murder" sounds in terms of elapsed time. When a person drifting into or out of sleep many minutes may go by in an "instant" from the witnesses perspective. The murder sounds were clearly quite quiet and not obviously threatening/worrying when they were heard. It is also possible that the sounds were exaggerated.
It strikes me that the lack of blood on the Body at discovery by Lechmere and then PC Neil some 5 ? minuted later is suggestive that Lechmere found the body very very soon after the murder happened (enough to be the guilty party) and that Nichols was probably strangled during being restrained (forearm around the neck from behind ?) and already dead when the wounds were made. It's hard to believe Lechmere didnt disturb the murder and see/hear Jack if it want him.
I'm not clear just how dark it was (certainly dark compared to modern cities), but it seems Lechmere was visible at least as a shape from some distance away (40 to 50 metres ?). It is surprising that Robert Paul didnt see him previously given the apparent distance and their common passage. However, it is possible that Lechmere did "freeze" from shock for many seconds perhaps minutes before he decided to examine her.
Clearly he and Paul decided not to get involved (it's hard to believe they didnt consider her to be dead). Its a shame we dont have more information from Paul on their conversation before and after meeting PC Mizen.
A lot of good points
charles lechmere sounds like a name for a edgar allan poe villain which of course he was in my opinion the RIPPER
Yes!
There is literally NO evidence whatsoever for Lechmere being the Ripper NOTHING!!!!!
@@jimlewis2395Ohh yes there is.
@@susanclapp1721 circumstantial maybe, but no hard evidence. He’s by far the most likely out of the known suspects, but it could well be an unknown perpetrator. Unlikely given all the facts at hand, however. . So he would need to be ruled out, certainly, but it cannot be ascertained if he was definitely responsible. Yet.
@@Dude0000absolutely. But while there's been a few serial killers that have been convicted on just circumstantial evidence but with no hard evidence... like the latest serial baby killer nurse Lucy Letby. And this is with today's technology and CCTV.. back then there was nothing but just swearing on the Bible and taking someone's word for it. If there's to much circumstantial evidence it can add up and musn'tbe overlooked. And also back then no one followed the case up. So I'd say untill that person was fully investigated by the authorities the finger points in Lechmere's direction. That just my personal opinion.
Whether by design or accident, the animated 3d model of Lechmere is incredibly unsettling. More so when one takes into consideration this may have been the last face the victims saw... Even the real life photo of him as an elderly gent' seems to have a deadness to the eyes.
I think the creator of it did it by design - he is talented in that field
You're bang on with your assessment of Lilley's account. Wholly unreliable.
Good episode Ed! What amazes me still today is that another Edward Stow will be trying to solve this mystery in 135 years time even though the finger still points to Lechmere with all the findings! Great to be an investigator tho, keep up the good work Mr Stow! 👏👏
You are a lunatic There is literally NO evidence whatsoever against Lechmere. Zero, NOTHING!!!!
I'm amazed the way this particular video has sent some of the anti Lechmere's in a complete meltdown. If the likes of Mathew Lawton and his 'many disguises' are so against the idea of Lechmere being the perfect suspect...then why bother coming on here arguing the toss....Insulting and using bad language, and trying to get this channel unsuccessfully shut down. It clearly shows the strength of Lechmere being JtR. Edward Stows video's are sending these people in a frantic frenzied explosion of overload. They need to get a life and get outdoors more.
There has to be more to it other than just disaggreing. You disaggre, you say your peace and that should be that - but not with Lawton. He goes into a mad frenzy when you mention Lechmere as the potential killer. There must be another reason.
@@PEMBYSGAMINGWORLD
Mathew Lawton may have the same mental issues of that as a serial killer? Maybe thats the next thing on his agenda ha.
Just for the record if some think I'm serious...its a joke.
Who has been trying to shut the channel down?
Someone who used to comment. He went on a Facebook group announcing his intention
Firstly, there is No evidence let alone Proof, that Cross lived at that address & so, no Proof that Cross is Lechmere. An inquest document online - Chas. Andrew Cross. The fact of the matter is - no killer, let alone a Knife killer, would approach a witness who has Seen him now, then walks away chatting with him & then makes himself Known to the Cops. Then, continues skulking around the streets in the early morning hours when Many people know he was on the scene of that victim & he is Known to More of the cops because he did go to the inquest. Even if Cross is actually Lechmere, who lived in Whitechapel his whole life & worked at Pickfords for over 20 years, then he is Well Known to loads of locals & work colleagues & as a carman, also business associates. A couple of Morons make a doc & fooltube videos putting about that - he continued walking the streets in the black early morning hours for Weeks & carried on approaching prostitutes In Front of people & did the killings with the same & much worse MO. LOL. Really??
All the jibber jabber about 'times' for 3 cops & 2 other men is boring as all hell Childish friggin Bunk, nobody will Ever get it sorted. 5 men have No Idea what time they were where. End of. Each one says a time, each newspaper states various times & Christer made up His own time to suit his stupidass 'theory' about a guy by the name of Charles A. Cross & Christer does Not Know his home address. Putting modern font on a page with 1888 newspaper headers above, is Not proof of Cross' home address.
The professional hypnotist Stealthy Eddy Stow has made up His own 'times' to suit His mind numbing Gobshite & repeats it all over & over as his Brainwashing tactic. LOL.
There most certainly Were other males who came across other of the bodies.
Cross sure Did raise the alarm Straight Away, he did Not keep walking on down the road. It is very understandable considering the Times & the conditions for that area in 1888, that when he saw a woman who lay prone on the ground, his thoughts went to someone who had maybe been attacked & as there were lots of prostitutes who roamed around in the early morning hours, he was very well aware that would be the case & as they were known to Drink, his first thoughts did not turn to murder. If I was a male back then in Whitechapel, I sure as hell would Not have wanted to be the male to try & wake her up at 3.30 a.m., all by myself, at the very least, in whatever state, she could have just started screaming. He did Nothing wrong.
I do Not believe the Rubbish from Holmgren or Stow, both dopes who think they are smarter than all the police involved including Inspector Abberline from Scotland Yard who was brought in after the murder of Mary Ann Nichols, as he knew Whitechapel very well.
And BTW - in regards to Nichols, there were Two cuts to her throat plus 2 stabs to the vagina, several stabs & cuts to the abdomen causing the Bowels to Protrude through the abdomen. Now you are Informed of the basics, pleease don't carry on as if there would have been no blood on that friggin Knife, or anywhere else. In the black of night down that road with high buildings both sides, the killer would Not have Known about blood on his person, clothes or shoes. End of.
And FYI - Mary Ann had bruises on her face And on her hands, meaning, she put up a Fight.
And people are drinking the Kool-Aid no matter the lunacy of the dumb as dog doo ‘reasoning’ behind the blather. Jeez.
Another interesting video thanks ❤
Thanks
"I then woke my husband, and said to him, 'I don't know what possesses me, but I cannot sleep tonight.'"
"Yes," growled my husband. "I know the bloody feeling..."
Ha!
It seems Victorians stayed up late and got up early or just didn't sleep at all. I don't just base that on this video, it always come across that way.
Interesting that the people in the houses within a few feet, of the place of the murder, some who slept very lightly, never heard Paul talking to Lechmere Cross, or light murmuring to each other, footsteps when he walked towards Paul, to stop and tell him about a woman laying on the floor, in the street.
Later the Police in the area with the lanterns flashing about all up and down the street, you would have imagined.
But only knew about, what had occurred, when the door's were knocked on, later by the Police.
No one heard, not even Paul or Cross Lechmere saying one word to each other, at a stressful time for any normal person, to be confronted with, at such an early hour in the morning.
You would think, the persons would have been somewhat agitated, in an excitable condition, or were they just so cool about it all, that they never even raised one hair on the back of their neck, after seeing what was before them at such an early hour.
She gave the account one week later. I don't know about you guys, but I can't accurately state events affecting me two days ago. 😄 I'm sure, like most witnesses, she meant well, but it all serms a bit 'built on quicksand'
Another excellent video! 💯
Another load of mind numbing Nonsense from a Moron actually.
There is a lot of circumstantial evidence concerning Charles and I understand that people have been convicted on circumstantial evidence alone . What do you consider the most damning evidence ?
The nature of this case is cumulative
So...days after the story came out, all of a sudden everyone has a story. These simple people wanted to feel important and possibly helpful, so they embellished their 'witness' statements.
I think it was him,he knew the area well,he lived or worked near to all the murder sites,he was found leaning over the body of one of the victims while blood was still flowing.He worked in a local meat market so blood stained clothing was normal for him
Firstly, there is No evidence let alone Proof, that Cross is Lechmere. The fact of the matter is - no killer, let alone a Knife killer, would approach a witness who has Seen him now, then walks away chatting with him & then makes himself Known to the Cops. Then, continues skulking around the streets in the early morning hours for Weeks when Many people know he was at the scene for that victim & he is Known to more of the Cops because he did go to the inquest. Even if Cross is actually Lechmere, who lived in Whitechapel his whole life & worked at Pickfords for over 20 years, then he is Well Known to loads of locals & work colleagues & as a carman, also business associates. Yet this moron says he continued walking the streets & carried on approaching prostitutes In Front of people & did the killings with the same & much worse MO. And people are drinking the cool aid like a pack of Idiots.
Mrs. Lilley woke her husband up to tell him she couldn't sleep. I wonder if Mr. Lilley regretted his vows in that moment like I would.
Ha
Imagine waking him up but not telling him what you’ve supposedly heard either.
If Harriet Lilley was correct, we know that Polly was looking for a customer - perhaps Lechmere was a client and that's what the gasps were (3:30am).
I think one of the policemen went down Buck's Row between then and the murder but Polly, as well as Lechmere, would have been keen to hide from any police.
So he didn't kill her until just before 3:40am. And Paul turned up, etc.
This is just my thoughts on how Mrs Lilley AND all the other evidence could be right!
She probably dreamt it though!
I'm fascinated by JTR. And this channnel is brilliant. But this debate seems to rely on totally accepting the eye witness accounts of those who support a certain theory and ignoring those which don't. ie believing those who heard nothing, ignoring those who heard something. Also the obsession with a ten minute time period - at a time when few had access to watches and clocks etc.
Excellent, will watch this tonight 👍
Hope you enjoy it!
If they rely on this woman’s testimony to discredit Chuck, there goes the idea of jtr running away in his noisy boots after hearing Lechmere coming his way.
Good point!
The CGI imagery of Lechmere in Bucks Row is spooky
Very creepy.
Timestamp?
So true - it's really freaky! 🫣
@@harcomou8395 starts @ 25:52 😱
dont forget the victims ❤ rest east precious sisters ❤
Marvelous logic. Another well worked out piece to the Ripper puzzle.
Firstly, there is No evidence let alone Proof, that Cross is Lechmere. The fact of the matter is - no killer, let alone a Knife killer, would approach a witness who has Seen him now, then walks away chatting with him & then makes himself Known to the Cops. Then, continues skulking around the streets in the early morning hours for Weeks when Many people know he was at the scene for that victim & he is Known to more of the Cops because he did go to the inquest. Even if Cross is actually Lechmere, who lived in Whitechapel his whole life & worked at Pickfords for over 20 years, then he is Well Known to loads of locals & work colleagues & as a carman, also business associates. Yet this moron says he continued walking the streets & carried on approaching prostitutes In Front of people & did the killings with the same & much worse MO. And people are drinking the cool aid like a pack of Idiots.
A very interesting theory ,fantastic work
Thanks!
None of the men who lived in Whitechapel were definitively cleared. This includes and is not limited to Lechmere. Some the police interviewed but as we have seen from many other murder cases, it is not uncommon for the police to interview the murderer at some point in the investigation and perhaps buy into his alibi or not have enough evidence to hold the suspect.
I wonder why the police didn’t interview Lechmere after the murder of Annie. If they wanted Paul, why not? And why wouldn’t Paul ask them? If for any reason to pass the heat back on Lechmere. This has been an interesting video, mrs Lillys account although flawed, reminds me of how brazen this murder was. Thanks for helping clarify her testimony, good video!
Because the police were not quite on the ball. Just like nearly a hundred years later in Yorkshire when there was another delivery driver Ripper going around.
Your videos are excellent! I'm currently writing a novel from JTRs perspective and Lechmere is my killer.
In my book... Lechmere killed Nicholas on his way to work and in his mind he was almost caught. He wouldn't make that mistake again. After that murder he would take off work or just wouldn't show up.
I sure would love to talk to you in person... some of the details are beyond shocking. Imagine coming home to your wife with a kidney in your pocket?!
Keep those videos coming!
A Uterus my dear fellow! - or a minge!
@PEMBYSGAMINGWORLD that's not what JTR would have called it. My book is very graphic as it should be!
@@sciencefirst7880 Can you save your profanities for your book?
Spoiler alert.
Thanks for the new video! Just a thought, Lechmere could first have strangled Polly to unconsciousness (but not to death yet), next made the abdominal rippings, then strangled more so that the heart stopped and last cut the throat which finally killed her. That would fit better with the fact no blood had came out yet as Robert Paul arrived to the scene
Lechmere NOT the Ripper Stop believing the BS from these liars
@@jimlewis2395 You are not in the position to tell what anybody should believe or not. Instead you yourself are free to believe what you want.
You can believe whatever dumb, ridiculous fantasy you want pal but the FACTS say otherwise. There is literally NO evidence against Lechmere whatsoever, NOTHING!!!!.....On the other hand, there is quite a bit of evidence against Kosminski@@masan7452
Mr Stow, I wonder if you could adress a couple of points in evidence that I find rather odd.
1. Lechmere is reported as wearing a carter’s apron when giving evidence at the inquest. It seems unusual that he would do so, or alternatively that the paper would comment on it. Have you read of the like in other inquests from the period? Could Lechmere have been attempting to emphasise that he had a reason to be at the murder scene?
2. It also strikes me as odd that the scrap of apron discovered by PC Long after the murder of Eddowes was recognised as related to the murder. Do you know if anyone commented on this at the time? Was it drawn to his notice due to its proximity to the graffito? Surely blood-stained scraps of linen would have been quote common in the East End streets and tenements ?
Point 1. I think Lechmere wore his apron in the witness box to emphasise his irrelevance as a harmless bystander. People tended to dress up when they appeared in court, not dress down.
Point 2. The bloody apron was only noticed to be part of Catherine Eddowes apron later on. I doubt there were many bloody rags randomly left around the East End.
I think that the PC noticed the bloody apron piece before he then noticed the graffiti. He looked into the entrance doorway, noticed the rag, inspected it and then noticed the graffiti. As we know, the graffiti may have had nothing to do with the murders and been entirely coincidental.
@@thehouseoflechmere9407 Sorry to be tasteless, but wouldn’t one assume it was a menstrual rag?
@@thehouseoflechmere9407 Thanks for replying.
@@davethebrahman9870
It was far too large
Highly interesting. Good vid.
Oh and "ascertained"?
Asser-tained
Would the people on the street be hesitant to say what they actually observed in case the murderer went after them?
All this confusion over times, if Mizen had looked to his right going to the murder scene from behind the Board school, he would have seen the hospital clock (still visible today from the same place). Had to be illuminated surely?
Well done. Informative. So often just assume that the police would just do the door to door work.
Most folks back then as now did not want to get involved and probably denied any knowledge of the crime .
Obviously Lechmere knew how to quietly kill someone.
You are right it is him and he was involved with the torso murders too do not second guess it it was him right
She sleeped in front of the house? In late autumn? Why?
@wasserungeheuer-918 Because Jack was about!
That means the bedroom was located at the front of the house.
@@Liz-sn1mm thanks for telling me that. English is not my native language
@@wasserungeheuer-918 it's old English too, they spoke differently to now, just as in German at the same time as to now
Surly tests could be done to see how long it would take for the blood in the saturated clothing to reach the floor.And if her heart was still faintly pumping ,this would assist the flow of blood,that is until she expired. Perhaps Only one of the two men knew that there was blood on the body & that is why he didn't want to touch it.
Read Cutting Point by Christer Holmgren. It does exactly that
Excellent, thank you Edward
You are very welcome
Why are all these women awake 11:59 at 4am pacing the floor, but they claim to have heard nothing. Contradiction! I think they may have been afraid the killer would come for them if they divulged what they witnessed.
Agreed. Since the papers give the addresses of those who make statements, they likely thought it might have been gang violence and didn't want to get involved. Or they didn't want to get pulled into the inquest and possibly miss work. This was before the case was made famous, and the name Jack the Ripper was coined. There may have been others who heard or saw something...and they chose to keep it to themselves for the same reasons.
Exactly, she didn't get there in total silence, whoever did it.
Is the image at 1:15 a real photo or is it an artists impression created from his photo as the older man 0:34 ?
It's an AI image - check the description under the video!
@@thehouseoflechmere9407Thank you!
If the Ripper murders occurred today, would the police fare any better than they did in 1888? I doubt it. Look how long the Yorkshire Ripper was active, and that was in the 1970s-80s. Catching a serial killer is the most difficult task a police force is faced with. But Lechmere is the most favourable suspect, in my opinion, and I’ve read lots of books, including Dan Farson’s, which was my first back in the 1970s. But l can’t quite get my head around Lechmere being the Thames’ Torso murderer. The MO is completely different. Does a Leopard ever change its spots?
Regarding eye witness testimoney - i was once picked out in a police line-up. I had simply been asked on the street by police earlier that day to attend the line-up, because i looked like a suspect they already had in custody. I proved my whereabouts, we laughed.
Have you watched my film on the first murder
@@thehouseoflechmere9407
I think I've watched all of them, Edward - the reason I believe you have uncovered the identity of JTR.
@Jack-hy1zq good!
I assume Mrs Lilley was paid for her story by the newspaper
Probably
When the carotid artery is cut there is an arterial spray of blood. The killer would most likely have been bloodstained to a degree. If the wound was that fresh it doesn't explain how the blood seeped slowly. I cant quite get to grips with this part of the evidence
They think he strangled them first due to lack of arterial spray at the crime scenes. If heart is stopped before the throat is cut it wouldn't spray much
Only if the victim's heart is beating. She was strangled first so, there would be no blood pressure to cause a spray. Please watch the video before making these types of comments.
Strangulation.
To be less gracious about Harriet Lilley, is it likely that the press would pay alleged witnesses for an interview back then? If so that could be a big incentive for her to lie or at least embellish her story. Also, I assume they would probably pay a bit more to someone who had more of a story to tell, as opposed to someone saying they heard nothing.
Or am I just too cynical?
Is it possible that Lechmere left his home much sooner than he said?
Very possible
Judging by the lack of blood at the crime scene and Robert Pauls belief that Polly Nicholls chest was moving, he did not think at the time of being found that she was dead. Also the coroners time of death indicates that this was a very recent kill. The coroner estimated around 03:40 to 03:45. Any earlier time frame, the blood loss would have been evident. Given that Lechmere and Paul were both in close proximity to the deceased, they could not have failed to see the blood loss. Although Bucks row was in darkness and shadow at that time of the morning, Lechmere was still able to make out what he stated as a tarpaulin lying in the stable yard entrance from across the street if this statement is to be taken as truth? PC Neal who arrived on scene minutes later noticed the blood loss immediately albeit by his lamp light.
Poor Polly Nicholls probably brought her killer to the spot where she was murdered. She was probably plying her trade on the Whitechapel road so yes, Lechmere probably left home earlier than he said in search of a victim.
Yes it's very possible, just like it's very possible he didnt really think the lump lying there might be a useful tarpaulin. That makes no sense whatsoever. He could get hold of a tarpaulin at Pickfords any time. And what was he going to do with it? Lug it all the way to work? Take it home making him 20 minutes or so late?
@KingBritish
So you think its impossible that Lechmere actually left earlier than he said... depending on what time you think he said as two distinct reports had him saying 3.20
@@thehouseoflechmere9407
Maybe another reason for turning up at the inquest was to also stave off any door knocking police enquiries where his wife might remember that he left for work earlier that morning.
You would think that the police would have focused in more on the first person to witness the body.
When you take into account the times mentioned by Lechmere/Cross, Paul, PC Niel and PC Mizen, you're talking minutes or even seconds.
Just this very narrow time frame alone does leave a huge red flag over Lechmere/Cross.
And the police never even considered him.
No wonder the true identity of JTR remains a mystery because the police failed to follow him up.
We're talking the FIRST person to witness the body here.
Sometimes the obvious can be staring you right in the face.
We will never know for sure who JTR was, but Lechmere/Cross would be of huge interest.
Firstly, there is No evidence let alone Proof, that Cross is Lechmere. Next - you kids are soo easily led down the yellow brick road, you don't even Know that Cross was Not the only male to come across one of the bodies. Jeez. The fact of the matter is - no killer, let alone a Knife killer, would approach a witness who has Seen him now, then walks away chatting with him & then makes himself Known to the Cops. Then, continues skulking around the streets in the early morning hours when Many people know he was on the scene of that victim & he is Known to More of the cops because he did go to the inquest. Even if Cross is actually Lechmere, who lived in Whitechapel his whole life & worked at Pickfords for over 20 years, then he is Well Known to loads of locals & work colleagues & as a carman, also business associates. A couple of Morons make a doc & fooltube videos putting about that - he continued walking the streets in the black early morning hours for Weeks & carried on approaching prostitutes In Front of people & did the killings with the same & much worse MO. And people are drinking the cool aid like a pack of Idiots. LMAO.
Calm down
@@thehouseoflechmere9407 Listen up lovey, I hate to tell you this, but you are not some sort of God. Bye.
As Adrian Monk always says "He's the Guy"
Absolutely Ludicrous indeed. @@darrellharmsworth5418
Excellent video! and love how you definitively defend your theory using facts and criminal science!
Thanks
LOL His theory consists of nothing more than circumstantial evidence that could be said of about 1000 other men, who were around there at that time...Quite a bit of evidence for Kosminski being JTR. Literally NOTHING for Lechmere
@jimlewis2395
Circumstantial evidence can convict. You will be interested in mu next film - lol.
Also I recommend you watchbmy series 'The Evidence for Guilt'.
OK. Then the circumstantial evidence will also have to "convict" those 1000 other men too and not just Lechmere....Zero REAL evidence against Lechmere and quite a bit of it against Kaminsky@@thehouseoflechmere9407
@jimlewis2395 your obviously a complete buffoon. All that exists on the ripper case circumstantial evidence just more points to lechmere than any of the other suspects. Like Bruce Hornsbey and the range once said " That's just the way it is" unfortunately nothing you or your little band of bummers can do to change it. It's history lechmere walked those routes at those times and was seen over a suspect looking suspicious you can't change that it happened get over it. It's obvious it makes your blood boil you sad little being
I find it a bit odd that none of the neighbors heard the 2 men speaking over the body.
Whispers probably
They were asleep
If people are outside my house in the early morning talking I would not hear them as I would be asleep! Plus these people are used to the noises of the night and would sleep through anything after the hard labour they would be doing during the day, and their bedroom might be at the rear.
Robert Paul mentioned about the locality Buck's Row that many been knocked down there as there's horrible gangs there at the spot, obviously referring either the Buck's Row as a whole or that end of Bucks'Row. The locals maybe were used to hear odd sounds on regular bases at night
@@KingBritish
When the police arrived and there was all that commotion, why didn't Lilley just go outside and say "ya know I heard a painful moan and whispers around 3.30 just as the train came along"?
I'll give you a likely answer. Because she hadn't yet made up her story. Took her a week to think it up.
No, this doesn't get Lechmare off the hook. Good episode though.
?
@@kevinkenny6975 I was answering the question posed in the video.
Well done.
Excellent.
Many thanks!
Outstanding work as usual! I am reading Sugden's complete history of JTR and there was something I immediately noticed, for the Annie Chapman murder the coroner, iirc, set the time at an hour that would have been too late for Lechmere to be on his way to work, how do you explain this? Is it possible that he didn't go that day, or sneaked away while waiting to load his cart, or that the coroner was wrong? Thank you!!!
I have discussed this in several previous videos... check out the back catalogue!
The coroner actually gave an earlier time for Chapman to have been killed, based on 4 points. This supports Lechmere killing her on his way to work.
JTR didnt kill in daylight. He used darkness.
@lyndoncmp5751
Yes that is more likely
@@thehouseoflechmere9407
I think so too. I can't see 'Jack' killing in the morning light, as people are up and going about their business with windows looking down on the back yard, now in light. I'm certain he killed Annie at the earlier time.
I believe Harriet Charles and Robert were just two bloke's that found polly
as hardly anybody had a watch in those days the times are just guesswork mostly
Train times weren't and in this video I mainly discuss relative times. Eg that polly had been dead for half an hour and it can be gauged, irrespective of the o'clock time, that this coincided with Lechmere seeing Paul.
Also there were clocks such as the one at the nearby brewery. Time wasn't a vague concept in 1888 due to a lack of wristwatches.
As ever, I'm more in concurrence with lines of enquiry than points of elimination. The vital quotient is that you're always an interesting listen, Edward.
I don't see why the killer might of been with the body for up to ten minutes. This makes it feasible for Cross to have been seen by Paul at 3:40. Ten minutes is not that long to subdue, kill and mutilate and celebrate in his actions. However the other potential witnesses may of been asleep or dozing when the noises are alleged to of occurred. Furthermore a low moan and hushed voices wouldn't have disturbed them, just because one person sees or hears something doesn't necessarily mean everyone in a particular vicinity will. I think it's important to keep that in mind.
Firstly, there is No evidence let alone Proof, that Cross is Lechmere. The fact of the matter is - no killer, let alone a Knife killer, would approach a witness who has Seen him now, then walks away chatting with him & then makes himself Known to the Cops. Then, continues skulking around the streets in the early morning hours for Weeks when Many people know he was at the scene for that victim & he is Known to more of the Cops because he did go to the inquest. Even if Cross is actually Lechmere, who lived in Whitechapel his whole life & worked at Pickfords for over 20 years, then he is Well Known to loads of locals & work colleagues & as a carman, also business associates. Yet this moron says he continued walking the streets & carried on approaching prostitutes In Front of people & did the killings with the same & much worse MO. And people are drinking the cool aid like a pack of Idiots.
If the train actually passed 10 mins earlier doesn't that help the Lechmere case?
Not really as it would not make sense that he would have been hanging around for ten or fifteen minutes after the murder. It would have taken less than perhaps four minutes to commit then he'd be gone, no waiting around. Based on the timings available, it would have been committed shortly before 3.45am or we might say between 3.40 and 3.45. If we suggest the murder took place at 3.30 exactly, that would exonerate Lechmere.
@@huckleberry10ful can't remember my own comment - but a quick think- train 3.20 -so you may have inadvertantly cleared Lech
@@huckleberry10ful ,Hi again, I think I made that comment after reading about the Heart. General research claims the heart can continue beating for between 15 to 40 minutes after brain death. - Of course Lechmere is still No.1 suspect
Did he rely on the loud train to mask any noise?
Although Im firmly in the Lechmere camp, I cant help thinking whether the killer would have silenced Paul as initially he couldn't have known what he'd seen. Paul would've presumably died quickly - No fast response London Ambulance service in the 1880s. Its just niggling at me would he not have tried to silence a potential witness who'd seen his face rather than bluff it out. Either way when they both went off in search of help and Lechmere approached PC Mizen - if he was the killer he would have had nerves of steel as he must of had the murder weapon on him, as it was never found at the site of the murder.
To attack another man is very different to attacking a woman one would think. More risks to oneself involved
Paul had his guard up (not in a physical boxing sense) and would’ve been a harder target than a woman with her guard down after presumingly ready to “service her client”.
@@andrewleah1983 Firstly, there is No evidence let alone Proof, that Cross is Lechmere. The fact of the matter is - no killer, let alone a Knife killer, would approach a witness who has Seen him now, then walks away chatting with him & then makes himself Known to the Cops. Then, continues skulking around the streets in the early morning hours for Weeks when Many people know he was at the scene for that victim & he is Known to more of the Cops because he did go to the inquest. Even if Cross is actually Lechmere, who lived in Whitechapel his whole life & worked at Pickfords for over 20 years, then he is Well Known to loads of locals & work colleagues & as a carman, also business associates. Yet this moron says he continued walking the streets & carried on approaching prostitutes In Front of people & did the killings with the same & much worse MO. And people are drinking the cool aid like a pack of Idiots.
Excellent episode Edward. Ive long thought the Harriet Lilley account was probably made up to get a bit of attention and, as you said, to connect herself to the murders. Its not unheard of.
If I thought I'd heard somebody in trouble ("painful moan") I wouldn't go back to bed. Id be out the front telling the police when they arrived and there was all the commotion. Bit odd that a supposed ear witness didnt bother to do any of that. Just stayed inside, despite not being able to sleep? Hmmm.
Good points
@@thehouseoflechmere9407
✌🥃
I've wondered if anyone suspected a police officer?
I have been wondering since Paul and "Cross", supposedly didn't hear each other, were they in it together, or was a person in the Police Force in on it?
Always enjoy your information and I am with you on the suspect being Mr. Lechmere. As far as Lilley's testimony as a grand juror and I had been in the states for almost a year due to the covid period, I would have discounted her testimony for reason you had stated in your video. I would also have thought that if she heard moans and voices and being in the home facing the road that she would have looked out that window to see what is going on, as many of us would be curious to see in our own neighborhood any wrong doing. Been to London and had taken two tours of the area, I have a keen interest in this and being near my home the Lizzie Borden case as well. Keep up the good work sir ! Catch you on the next one !
JTR could not afford to have his victim scream. The area of the the murder was densely populated & someone was sure to wake up. He stifled the victim’s screams while strangling her, but how? IMO there were no screams. I also believe it was Lechemere.
ZERO evidence against Lechmere.. NOTHING!!!!
Unless she'd been strangled before the throat was cut, lessening blood flow, making a 3:30 attack entirely possible. Nobody wanted to get involved, thats why they heard nothing. Yet somebody killed her, either in Bucks Row or elsewhere. Are we to believe it was done in total silence?
It takes a Long time to strangle someone to death so that is not likely. Think of something else that would kill & then the rest happened. And so, no splurge of blood from any of the severe injuries. Unfortunately no records survived from J ward so the various stories are from some newspaper articles that differ about the details.
@@bethryan9077 how long?
@@rob5944 Brain death, about 4 - 5 minutes.
@@bethryan9077 so dead by 3:35?
@@rob5944 Nobody knows for sure, unless witnessed, no coroner can ever state an exact time of death. The records from J ward didn't survive, the 'times' in relation to Paul, Cross & the 3 cops talked about are made up by this con man channel operator. Various newspaper articles from back then differed with the info about times & who said what.
Outstanding work Edward.
Since Mary Nichols was strangled first I doubt anyone would have heard anything
Exactly
Yep, what I was thinking too. Don't know why the residents were obsessed with screams?
I do agree that Charles was the killer but why do you think he stopped as time went on? Or did it continue on a smaller scale? I would love to know what you think
He carried on for some time
Why do people watch a TV show & believe it all?
@@thehouseoflechmere9407 You continue to put up on screen, that Fake newspaper clip that has Charles Allen Lechmere, his Name, as if from a newspaper article from back at that time. Yet you State that the witness's name was known to be Cross for over 100 years & Lechmere being him was Not Known About til recently. LMAO. You're not very bright are you pal.
@@bethryan9077
I don't know, tell us.
@@thehouseoflechmere9407 Again, another banal retort. Listen up peoples - it's about the value of Praise for the Ego, for a start, but first & foremost, it's all about the Dollar. Be honest, for a change. You asked for it, there you go, you got it. And, you're welcome.
The woman who paced until 04.30am never heard anything. So she didn't hear Lechmere or Paul then?? None did it seems!
You're a character Ed. These videos on location need to continue.. It could be groundhog day but the 3.07 out of new cross is genius.. Average 27 minutes off passenger trains in the 1880s take 4 for stops in between and there's the approximate time of arrival at Bucks Row of about 3.30.. Regardless of each theory
I'm not sure about your maths!
@@thehouseoflechmere9407 me neither... I took it from the old 1885 timetables from the passenger trains in that era.. From the old London transport museum archives.. And most were 27 minute journeys.. With four stops in between.. But there was nothing for the overnight goods!
@peteclarke9416
You made me check and its usually 15 minutes with 4 stops.
@@thehouseoflechmere9407 No it's 27 minutes. I've got it right in front of me.
@@peteclarke9416 timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer.php?token=f3d00eb5-7cbc-4bde-827d-523ff9012f53
Amazing that no blood was noticed on Lechmere.
Constant adverts makes this impossible to watch or follow. Gave up,
Don't blame you. What's your browser? There are a lot of free ad blockers.
Btw, YT puts in the ads, not the creator.
OK thanks for the heads up.
All RUclips films have adverts. These films have no more adverts than any other RUclips film