It's good to see that NIJ 1 and NIJ 2A are going away. 1 was always useless outside of training and NIJ 2A was bargain-basement minimum requirement even 20 years ago. HG2 should be the go-to level of issued protection for patrol officers today.
I can honestly see a use for IIA soft armor, but pretty much only if it's being used in addition to rifle rated plates just to provide some extra coverage or as a plate backer, or perhaps as protection from military type fragmentation threats. For example, a "Shooter" or SAPI cut IIA plate backer behind a "Swimmer" cut plate or very full cut SPEAR/BALCS type stuff. But even then with how thin and light regular Level II is/was, eh...Only IIA if weight is a super concern.
@@larrythorn4715 These days you can get IIIA that's no thicker than a comic book. It's pricey but beats the protection and more than matches the thinness of the old II/IIA.
I bought my first vest back in the Dark Ages--1978, a Second Chance Hardcorps II. I was a Marine avionics tech and wasn't issued armorer other than an M1 steel helmet. I used that vest for military duties (sometimes with the K-47 plate, sometimes without) and for security work until I replaced it in 1986. When I retired from the military in 2010 rifle-proof armor was almost universally issued. Thanks for keeping me updated on the new protection standards. Second Chance started off making up its own standards for Model X and Model Y. Then NIJ had two generations of armor ratings. For me, armor was for when I fouled up selecting and using cover. Police have different work environments--mostly--and a patrol car is ALMOST protection from buckshot and pistol bullets. When rifles, belt-fed machine guns, and grenade launchers are in the mix (think drug cartels) the patrol cruiser is little more than a bullet magnet.
Love these new standards, makes it way easier to cross reference different manufacturers plates and whether or not I should stock more m855A1. I need a 22” ar upper soon
@@syntaxerrorsix3137 there’s about 4 different sites I know of selling it for between 2.5-3$ a round. War pig armory is one I can remember. I’m pretty sure the nij will have special ratings for m855a1 like they did in the previous set of standards.
@@CheeseBurgerXJ That was my experience. Too little gain for $3 a round. I'll just stick to 193. Special threat plates almost never fall within NIJ as they don't do everything their classification says they will do. For instance the Hesco L210. They'll stop M855 but not 7.62x51 so they don't count as level III. They did test well against M855A1 but they aren't rated for it even by the maker. I think the best advise for most is to use whatever plate that can stop the ammo you carry. No one wants to carry more than they need, it just sucks.
I do to and thank you for your service! I am not leo however I have carried for 40 years as a law abiding citizen and never had to pull my revolver out once,except on deer season my old 586 Smith has take a few. Stay safe!
5.7 is not really a real concern, the AP ammo is scare at best, the commercial ammo almost entirely sucks. And even when you do have it the AP ammo is kinda pathetic.
I like the exterior plate carriers, but I hate the ones that are made to look like your uniform button up, those just make it look like you’re overweight, they always look wrinkled and just don’t have that good look that regular plate carriers have
I have three levels of body armor. 1. Soft Kevlar that can be worn under shirt, tie, and suit. 2. Thicker, soft Kevlar that is worn over clothing. Also has a small pocket for a small steel or ceramic chest plate. 3. Front, back, and side ¼ inch AR500 heavy steel plate armor that is worn over clothing. I have no idea how my armor fits into the new standards.
@@NarsuitusI don’t know much about this, I know it happens, has happened, and injuries and deaths have occurred… I’m not 100% sure how anti spalling sprays work, either… or their effectiveness. I would like to see tests tho, and like to see actual studies done. Armor isn’t cheap, and if it can be safer- more the better!
@@aandyherr817 I have not tried anti-spalling sprays. I have, however, tried anti-spalling Kevlar and/or anti-spalling polycarbonate plastic materials in front of my steel plates and they work very well.
Effectively unless someone is loading AP .30 cal bullets in 300 BLK, the subsonic bullets typically are covered by IIIA, but then again there are so many variations it's hard to account for that, and likely why it's not included in a standard. Manufacturers can easily have special rifle threats / pistol threats added to their product testing, but then we get into the same gray areas we had with people adding the "+" to threat profiles.. 8.6 BLK is another obscure threat, but I've found in testing that the long copper and brass solids are defeating IIIA and even some types of III/III+ panels due to their length and robustness over a typically jacket/lead core round. I've found while RF3 plates are no inclusive in the NIJ's eyes to lesser threats, really have minimal issues with a majority of hunting rounds including 6.5 CM and 300 WM. Awhile back I shot 338 RUM at 400 yards COM to a lower quality NIJ 04 plate. The backface was only 22mm. .338 Lapua at the NIJ testing distance though can be an issue for penetration as well as backface, although in the real world CQB shots of 338LM aren't a thing. You mentioned 5.7 showing up more frequently in homicides, are you able to mention what rounds have been recovered/used in those?
@@thomasmarchese2808the various testing I’ve done would say otherwise. 8.6 BLK subsonic solids defeat soft armor. 5.7 subsonics defeat IIIa soft and rigid. Bullet construction plays a big role. If the round doesn’t easily deform it has a good chance of going through.
@@thomasmarchese2808 specifically 8.6 BLK is designed to retain energy even at subsonic speeds equivalent to supersonic rounds, they do this by imparting more rotational energy with a higher rifling twist rate with a powder load that would normally make the cartridge supersonic.
@@thomasmarchese2808 If its something you're interested in, check out Russian 9x39 SP-6 & 7N12 cartridges. Comparable to the American 8.6 BLK but with tungsten or steel cores. not saying its a current threat on the streets of the US but there are definitely subs with AP capability.
8.6 Blackout uses the .338LM bullet. Yes it loses a lot of energy due to low velocity but the projectile itself will cause more back face deformation than you'd expect due to the sectional density.
When i worked as armed security guard i worn no body armor for years till i started working convoys and executive protection in other countries after working in that arena, and i returned to working as armed security guard few years later i worn my level 4 plates. I wouldnt want to wear soft body armor, today. My preference will always be level 4/rf3 as a dumb civilian
Hard plates for security is retarded for most US work unless your doing something like a nuke guard, all the guys we get in that don't know shit and run amazon gear typically are the ones running plate carriers and not soft vests, why armor up against rifles when that's used less than 3% of all armed crimes? Unnecessary weight is all it is, overseas 100% tho
@wompy-ru especially if that added weight comes at the cost of less coverage via a plate carrier or similar where the entire side is left open and exposed
@@wompy-ruI see plates being used by people who, simply can’t afford higher end soft armor… so, a piece of metal that will likely be more effective than nothing at a cheaper price, is very appealing. It atleast provides limited protection, more than none, and some cases can protect against rifle rounds too in addition to all other ammunition you’re gonna see as a guard All that to say, I’d recommend soft armor that’s gonna stop the ammunition you’re gonna encounter, and if you’re scared of rifles or anything that can pierce your armor, get plates on top of that armor … which is unlikely to occur. It’s a safety blanket for the most part.
I'm also curious about testing standards for shotguns. In my experience (just mine, so largely an opinion) shotguns have been the second most encountered firearm type after pistols. I personally know a number of people who aren't interested in guns in general, but have some old handed down shotgun in a closet. Not to mention as far as new guns go, you can't get anything much less expensive than a single shot or pump shotgun. I feel like there are a lot of them out in the wild and there's a really high probability of encountering a threat armed with one.
Both HG standards will stop your shotguns HG1 will stop all your buckshot and lead soft core slugs HG2 wil defeat MOST FMJ, sabot, and metalloid style slug
@@FenrisulfrSkarr Generally yes, but some handgun armor fails, especially in backface deformation when multiple pellets hit close together simultaneously. The energy from a bullet is partially dissipated as heat and it takes the fibers a certain amount of time (in milliseconds) to recover from each hit.
Thanks for the video! Overall, I gave up on NIJ and "NIJ Certification" and the "NIJ Approved List" when it became much less prestigious thanks to NIJ allowing tons and tons of Chinese and overseas manufacturers that were super sketchy on the "approved" list. This very much stopped being a seal of approval for quality control or some resemblance of safety. IMHO, it's like a way better sign to have an ISO certification then a NIJ certification, because what we really need in armor is the highest consistency and quality controls. Certainly Xinjing Armor Company ain't it, even if they can send in samples to get NIJ approval. Looking at the 3,964 approved products they've removed all of the Chinese manufacturers (there's still a few overseas), but of the probably 100 product makers, the NIJ needs to really look into ensuring they have the highest standards of manufacturing. Just because an American company is on the list doesn't mean they're not shady. Hopefully whomever is buying for the agency is doing some due diligence into a vendor who actually makes quality products and not just looking at a checkbox. I feel like there's a huge proliferation of armor in the last 10 years, with many are targeting tacti-cool civilians and they care more about the fashion/instagram than QA/QC. I agree with extending this to include more practical threats, such as a SovCit is likely to have a 16" barrel shooting M855. Does RF1 cover that? .300 blackout and 5.7 are real and not going away, and there's now super-spicy 9mm, and more 10mm than ever before.
My very first test was in 1989, and it was a level 3 A with titanium striker plates front and rear. I do remember that vest being a little heavy. In 1995, I got a new vest, also level 3 A with Composite striker plates front and rear. The last best I ended up with was in 2000, and it was still level 3 A.
My thought is that common hunting calibers including 6.5 creed, .270 and .300 win mag should be covered in RF 3 but when you start getting up to .338 lapua and other magnum hunting calibers these need to be their own level of protection. Most current level iv plates will stop them but to meet those back face deformation standards with something designed to down an elephant or big bear in one hit you’re going to have a much bulkier and heavier plate that is unnecessary for most applications
270, 6.5 will be stopped most likely by RF2 But all 3 of the listed ones will easily be stopped by NIJ-IV The BFD requirement should be taken with a grain of salt. There are very few, and none from post 2000s, known instances of hospitalizations or surgeries from back face deformations. People are built different dramatically from animals.
This is why I'm a fan of alumina-PE plates. Will stop .308AP and are much lighter than steel. They are a little bulkier though. Should also stop a regular .338 LM bullet but an AP round would be pressing your luck. Even if it doesn't fully penetrate, it is gonna hurt you. Could still be fatal.
Great overview, thanks. I find it quite weird that larger handgun calibers, like .50AE are still not in there somewhere. Just as I find the rifle rating very strange. I would have expected RF1 to go mainly for the so called "Assault Rifle" calibers (7.62x39, 5.56 Nato, 300 Blackout, etc.), RF2 for the full rifle cartridges (308 Win, 300 WinMag, 7.62x51, etc) and finally have RF3 "upgraded" for all the high power calibers (30.06AP/30MK2 AP, 338 LM, 375 SwissP, etc.)
Good morning from Greece. I am a LEO over here. I see that between HG2 and RF1 there is no part about ahotguns.... 410 and 12 gauge could be used on my country because the law doesn't allow to own a rifle caliber gun for hunting, only for sport shooting, so there are more shotguns around than rifles. Could you please make a statement about this part of body armour. Great video, keep on brother in blue.
All the HG ratings can stop shotguns HG1 will stop all buckshot youll encounter and lead slugs HG2 will reliably stop MOST metalloid, FMJ, and sabot style slugs
I’ve been trying to educate myself on body armor and it was definitely more complicated than necessary under the old standards. Can’t see myself needing anything more than R1 under the new standards. Im not a cop or anything but don’t think most would need more than H1 normally and if you did H2 probably wouldn’t be enough
@@Shieldel DHS armed contract PSO are issued minimum NIJ level II vests. When I was on contract, I wore my own Point Blank level IIIa vest with front and rear Point Blank 10x12 level IV ceramic/aramid plates (Add-on, not SAPI) which weighed 17 pounds total. It was a left side opening design which was actually pretty comfortable as long as you didn't do much bending. It didn't show that bad under the uniform blouse.
Theres level 1 ballistic clothing like shirts thetes a clothing manufacturer company that makes it for vip etc and a suit vest thats level 2 and a suit jacket thats level 3 A or close to it , basically idea is you layer it and they a suit vest thats level 3 A as well just thicker more noticeable but easly hidden under the suit jacket . Covert armor while still looking good expensive as hell usually bought by politicans people like that VIP etc
Any stab requirements? Even if not a requirement, I'd like to see stab and cut resistance. RF3 is probably not going to do well on 6.5 creedmoor or 300 winmag or 338 lapua. There is an interesting subsonic round with 338 bullet in a necked up 6.5 CM case that would be interesting (think 300 blackout but with heavier round and better BC). It's 8.6 BO is subsonic, suppressed, accurate, flat and effective to 600 yards at least. Probably not a threat to armor but very difficult to locate. Much more of a threat than 300 BO.
Slash and spike rating is a different rating system entirely, and the plates for that are built a little different. Ballistic vests do offer a good amount of slash and spike resistance but they are not made for that threat so they are not rated for it. Multithreat vests that offer both ballistic and spike rating often have two panels paired together. The ballistic panel, and a thinner spike panel. They get put together and put into the same carrier.
@@Jay-ho9io 300 BO is largely equivalent to a 230gr .45. Not long range. 8.6BO has rifle ranges and accuracy with subsonic suppression. It's an interesting threat because of its range and suppression capability. Much more of a threat than the 300BO.
There is NIJ-IV/RF3 plates that can reliably stop all those rounds listed, with no injury to the user, but theyre too expensive for any police department Plus those threats are super super rare in the police world, so its not a focus.
If you want to make a comprehensive standard, it really needs to incorporate the most common, non-hand loads. Its fine to do the standard NATO stuff. But any body armor company wanting to really set the standard needs to break down the entire math picture and include distances measured. Just within 5.56 you have... 45 gr copper, 55 gr frangible, 63 gr soft point (hunting), 70 gr AP (jacketed tungsten), 70 gr solid copper, 77 gr Sierra OTM... and thats not even trying. Then add all the "new" 6mm ARC stuff... its pretty much the same as 5.56 but longer ranges... mostly. Then add 6.5... And 6.8, especially the 6.8 blackout at 1:2 twist. All your .30 calibers (this includes 7.62) and 7mm... And if you want to stop there, thats fine. But thats mid chart. Not even close to a comprehensive test. And in the last 5 years 45-70 has also made a comback because its just a fun gun to own and rated for trexs (thanks chris pratt). So, yeah. Id like a solid lineup, with every caliber, and have them list ammo type and manufacture, gun specs (including twist and barrel lengths), distance, and then move through testing. Would likely be around 30-50 different rounds tested, at every angle, to include wet and or dry. And list shots until avg failure. Will it stop one 5.56 greentip round? Two? Fifteen? Why is this important? Sometimes you're stuck. Seatbelt, in car, some guy walks up and unloads. Sometimes you're guarding something. Someone drives up and unloads. You can easily sustain 5-10 hits before even reaction times kick in and get you moving. Thats the whole point, can armor protect you so you have a chance at surviving to return fire or get away? If no? You're not wearing high enough rated armor.
Im of the opinion that bodyarmor is rated for handguns first, rifles ... distant second. If it stops a rifle round, you're lucky. And my understanding is that most armor is not really tested for shotguns. Esp 12ga solid slug or some of the nasty penetration rounds. Probably because its so easy to homemake shotgun ammo.
Have to agree especially about the rifle ratings at the top. 30-06AP is so rare, and so few people have access to both. Plus it's all Army surplus which is pretty mediocre in weight/velocity compared to more modern hunting loads. For sure have stuff rated for it, but if someone grabs their deer rifle to shoot at someone, there's a better chance it's 300WinMag than that it is 30-06AP/300WinMag and just because the armor can stop a 30-06AP from peneteration doesn't mean the 300WinMag won't potentially do severe blackface deformation.
I would think that 300 BLK would be an easy test process, especially to include 5.7 (.22 cal spicier cousin) to be linked in with the new NIJ ballistic testing. Especially, with some of the popular hunting/anti-material cartridges .338 Lapua, .300 WIN MAG, and of course 6.5 CMR. If they switched their studies to pistol carbines for some of their testing, then they should have testing additional calibers as well. The other part of this would be grabbing the heads and sitting at the round table spit-balling ideas to include, but I wonder if that might be the reason. Not to include too much data so that it won't give "evil people" ideas perhaps. Unless most agencies are sporting IIIA or IV for everyday carry in uniform, I'm sure their plain clothes aren't sporting that (IMHO). But if they need testers to go through these rigorous procedures, I would be more than gladly fire their ammunition and firearms for empirical data. Just saying..... just provide room, board, drinking money, and internet. That's all I ask lol. I got some free time.
Had several shootings from 300blk where I work. We caught the guy and he had a mag full of 5 7 rounds. No gun in the car but at some point he did have it. First time seeing that round in the wild
Dude, I just saw your, "Law Enforcement only" green tip short video. And all I can do is laugh. I may or may not have a few myself. Not to mention "things" Law Enforcement can only wish they had.
@JavierTorres-py6rp Another successful shorts video trolling in the books. FN marks the boxes "law enforcement only" but I bought that ammo on lucky gunner with nothing more than $35 and a smile. The FN green tip "law enforcement only" ammo is just lead free ammo with a little extra velocity. As such it does a bit better against level 2 and some older level 3A vests than the other "consumer spec" or "sporting" 5.7 ammo.
Back in rhe 90's I knew a CHP Officer friend who was the Range Master who quailfied his Officers. When he went out in the Field he ALWAYS wore 2 -3A Vests because he knew how painful the BFT was!!!
Ok so i just bought level 111a+ and icw rifle plates the plates with 3a+ gets me level 4. But i still thing they could do better in testing to cover the more used ammo, 6.5, 338, 243, 6mm, 7mm, 300win mag. I hope what i just bought will last a while.
Question to @free field training, etc. I own a number of plate carriers and plates from steel to ceramics+.. I also happened to purchase a bunch of SafeLife 3A+ soft armor for my family less than 3 months before the pandemic kicked off.. Ironic, right? I went with SL 3A+ soft due to sharp objects like shanks and compound bolts.. It is a bit bulky, but I tell you what.. I didn't purchase anything of it to be stealthy.. I'm in Texas.. We don't have to.. That being said, I really like the fit of what you are wearing in this video... I'm rusty with body armor.. That isn't FRAS, is it? Definite new Sub and like.. Great info on the first video I have watched.. Off to the next..
If you're a civilian looking for bargains right now, you might be able to snap up some deals on armor that passed the old standards but fail the new standards.
Looks like all they’ve done is eliminate the lowest (useless) ratings and added minimal protections. If you were buying reasonable cheap armor (3A or 3) I don’t see how this would have price impact if you get HG2 or RF1.
Problem is even if you stop a .300 winmag from penetrating, the brute force from a round that hot will shatter the bones behind it and cause internal bleeding or organ damage at the least. If you get hit mid sternum, that much force on your heart in an instant can actually cause it to stop. Yes, you can stop it from going into your body, but the thousands of pounds of energy from a round that hot still has to go somewhere, right?
That's why you need a plate to stop that caliber. However, one thing I think the industry has overlooked is the potential for inclusion of relatively thin and somewhat flexible composite panel on the backface of an otherwise soft vest. Would greatly cut down on internal injuries by helping to spread out the force when hit with a round on the upper end of what the vest can stop. Also the potential of honeycomb material as an impact absorber is similarly being overlooked.
@@Lurch-Bot idk, .300 winmag is an awful lot to stop within say ~100 yards. Even if you do stop it, it’s still imparting several thousand ft/lbs of energy, which will surely knock you down and break bones or damage internal organs/cause internal bleeding through the impact alone. I sure wouldn’t wanna be on the receiving end of it either way haha
Nope, theres quite a bit of plates that fall in the 44mm guideline that stop those. While the 44mm bfd is outdated, and back face deformation injuries are EXTRAORDINARILY RARE (only 5 recorded before 2010) As long as its in those limits, its not an issue.
@FenrisulfrSkarr I would say a lot of variables would matter in that context, and even if it doesn't penetrate, I would think that individual would be out of the fight either way 🤷
It really depends. If a round if deflected, then only a portion of the energy needs to be absorbed. Also, the energy which is absorbed is spread across the area of the plate and then further dissipated by the carrier in a plate and jacket system. A 220 grain 300 Win mag bullet hitting a 6# plate is about a 1:300 ratio and if the hit is at a 30 degree angle, then it is more like a 1:450 ratio. That roughly equates to the equivalent to being hit by a 570# motorcycle at 5 mph or being hit by a 250# NFL player at 8mph. The 338 would be like that motorcycle hitting you at about 10 mph. Shooting the rifle doesn't take the shooter's shoulder off.
I had a vest stop (more accurately, a deflection) wearing a III+ vest during an attempted home invasion. The bullet and casing were never found but I have reason to believe it was 5.7 FN. I never saw the person who shot me but that appeared to be what their accomplices were carrying. I had a very serious kidney injury. The kidney was minimally functional for quite some time. Took about 3 years to recover to the point it is now functioning at maybe 90% of its original flow rate. Because of all this, I suspect they were using AP rounds and if I had been wearing a lighter vest, I probably would not be able to make this comment. While it couldn't be conclusively determined via inspection, I am fairly certain the bullet penetrated some of the layers of the vest. Funny thing is, I didn't even notice I'd been hit until it was all over and took off the vest. I had a large bruise and a red streak across my side that looked just like rugburn.
Of course I have no way of knowing, but I suspect fairly few knucklehead door kicker burglers are running 5.7 FN. Those guns run around $1,500. With no casing found I'd tend to suspect a revolver and from the wallop it packed maybe a magnum.
This is excellent information and thank you for the video. Pardon my skeptic nature, but the FED's have a nasty tendency to avoid posting information above Level IV ~ RF 3. Why, I can only speculate. From my perspective it would be relevant for industry standardization and marketing for safety construction. People (let's assume affluent) want safety rooms, resistant vehicle, etc etc etc. They tend to be focused on data and finance. How do you assure them if you don't have the facts to back up your claims?
You can get great deals on body armour. You can make your own using excellent everyday materials that stop bullets for those that have low to no income
Look bossman 5.7 was designed for operators to shoot other more Russian operators. If anybody designs soft armor that stops it especially proper AP quite frankly the material patent will be the next big thing since Kevlar.
A III+ vest saved my life when I was hit with a 5.7 FN AP round in an attempted home invasion. I had a serious kidney injury though because the AP bullet made the impact force concentrated in a smaller area than it would be with a standard bullet. I also think some of the outer layers of Kevlar were penetrated but you couldn't really be sure by looking at the vest. Cops never returned it so I couldn't send it back to the MFG for inspection.
Majority of steel core 7.62x39 including Chinese surplus is just mild steel, barely more penetration then regular lead fmj, any lvl4 should easily be enough
@@Ryan-cv9ww I have ceramic level IV plates in my plate carrier. It would be nice if there was something between level III and level IV, rated to defeat that steel-core 7.62x39, so that I didn't have to carry level IV plates.
@@DortonFarb that’s what special threat or 3+ plates are for, just look and make sure it’s a reputable company and they specifically say it’s rated for steel core 7.62x39, if you’re concerned about weight they have some really light lvl 4s that are lighter then 3s but they are too pricey for me. If anything buy an extra plate same make and model you already have and test it yourself, you’d be surprised at what some things can stop, I had a groin plate that was only lvl 3 and I hit it with 7.62x54r api and it actually stopped it. You’re balls would be mush from deformation but still there
Keep it simple and get safelife... It covers the most and the best compared to "better" armor... The 3a+lvl4 plate can stop a 50bmg... You might die from the impact but the fact it can stop a 50
Not sure. The standard specifies regular 855 at 61.8 ± 1.5 grain at 3115 ft/s. The exact performance parameters of the A1 seems a bit hard to come by. It may require RF3 to reliably stop.
Depends on the material and design more than anything with slugs HG2 will defeat all your common day to day slugs, including self defense loads HG1 can defeat lead cores typically.
Copper tends to be easily stoppable, because its a softer metal. Its only slightly harder than lead, but is normally used for its wind deflection and ballistic coefficient contribution
@FenrisulfrSkarr I dont know, Id still be interested to see. Most of the tests Ive seen shot copper rounds penetrating deeper. If you have some examples of this being tested Id be interested to take a look. I would think, especially with something like the Lehigh defense penetrator round, youd have very little buĺlet deformation, and that might lead to better armor penetration.
Been a long time since we had inventors willing to put their own life on the line to test their product in general. You don't see Elon going up on one of his rockets. I don't count the Ocean Gate dude. He was just an idiot.
Armor is a life limited product. You throw it away when it gets to a certain age and buy a new one, which will be specified by the manufacturer. Same as an old motorcycle helmet because performance will degrade substantially with age.
@@Lurch-Bot Armor that is cared for well and especially lightly to rarely ever worn like tends to happen with prepper civilians will last way beyond its official warranty date. I would have no qualms about using soft armor 10 years beyond its date and for properly maintained plates 20 or more. The reality is unless you buy armor when you are still pretty young, you're going to expire before that armor will. If you wear it all day for a security or LE job in all kinds of heat and weather, then you've got to be more mindful of condition and wear. Even then I'd be loath to throw it out upon replacement. Still good for backups, training etc. Even a truly old vest that is somewhat sub-par is still vastly better than none if you're in a pinch.
i didnt know what m855 was, but now i learned! its 5.56 AP, and im a semantic asshole so i gotta say, 7.62x51mm is essentially .308, so things like your grandpas hunting rifle; the FAL, etc all in all a great video! im more of a gun newbie than anything, and i learned a bunch! i like that the new standards simplify it to HG- Handgun and RF- Rifle instead of those numbered plates, its easier to remember
Nope. M855 is the standard military style of 556. It has a steel core which does increase penetration but not ridiculously so. It’s been largely replaced in military service with m855a1. In other nato countries it’s called ss109
I understand that Civilizations feel the need to wear Body Armor to protect themselves against Intruders and Muggers! I feel for those Honest people who need the protection. Unfortunately what the Armor Companies don't tell you and Police are Aware that the Blunt Force Trauma is VERY Painful!!! Officers that were shot (on RUclips)where the bullets impact caused Broken Surface Skin by the bullet! I developed a Trauma Reduction Insert Panel and Unfortunately when I loaned it to another Company they stole my Sample and intend to take credit for it!!!! Many will notice that outdoor testing is done with Rubber Manicins and NOT Ballistic Clay??
I was wearing IIA soft armor when I was shot in '94. It did the job against 20 gauge birdshot. I was very grateful to have had it. It still hurt like a son of a bitch. These days I have a plate carrier with class IV plates, which I wear over I!A soft armor. I'll probably get shot in the face.
Mostly undershirt body armor for undercover officers and such. Its not exactly entirely outdated, because it does stop your common 9mm threats, 380, small carry pistols, etc, but it is definitely the lowest demoninator that should be tolerated for modern police.
Lmao dudes will still buy steel plates and Non-NIJ'd plates, lol most of them dont even realize you can just lookup companies on the NIJ CPL to see model status or if it even has one
Imagine being part of a profession that has abused people so much, that they have to wear body armor every day. Says an awful lot. It starts from the top, and it will never change unless Law Enforcement makes the first step toward repairing their perception.
@@edwardvanduzer4284 If you don't know then you don't know, leading you to make ignorant comments about "alphabet agency bullshit". 🤷 Feel free to be more articulate by actually making an argument, using the Internet that was originally created by the US DOD. 😅😂🤣
@@edwardvanduzer4284 Got it. You have no actual argument. So, yes, ignorance is bliss, since you seem to have no idea about the standards for body armor and why the NIJ is defining them. 🤦
I believe that Body Armor should ONLY be sold to Law Enforcement Officers! Security Officers and Security Guards. TOO many Civilians own Armor and that can be Dangerous to L.E.O.s!!!!!?
No more dangerous than the possibility of civilians waking around with concealed firearms, a thing that is perfectly legal in most places in the US, sometimes with no license requirement. Please share with us how you feel about that.
It's good to see that NIJ 1 and NIJ 2A are going away. 1 was always useless outside of training and NIJ 2A was bargain-basement minimum requirement even 20 years ago. HG2 should be the go-to level of issued protection for patrol officers today.
It should be, but sadly alot of local sheriffs do not have that kind of budget, and many stick to surplus outdated vests.
I can honestly see a use for IIA soft armor, but pretty much only if it's being used in addition to rifle rated plates just to provide some extra coverage or as a plate backer, or perhaps as protection from military type fragmentation threats. For example, a "Shooter" or SAPI cut IIA plate backer behind a "Swimmer" cut plate or very full cut SPEAR/BALCS type stuff. But even then with how thin and light regular Level II is/was, eh...Only IIA if weight is a super concern.
@@larrythorn4715 These days you can get IIIA that's no thicker than a comic book. It's pricey but beats the protection and more than matches the thinness of the old II/IIA.
@kenofken9458 that's true but you can get quality level 2 stuff that's thinner still
@larrythorn4715 huh
I bought my first vest back in the Dark Ages--1978, a Second Chance Hardcorps II. I was a Marine avionics tech and wasn't issued armorer other than an M1 steel helmet. I used that vest for military duties (sometimes with the K-47 plate, sometimes without) and for security work until I replaced it in 1986. When I retired from the military in 2010 rifle-proof armor was almost universally issued.
Thanks for keeping me updated on the new protection standards. Second Chance started off making up its own standards for Model X and Model Y. Then NIJ had two generations of armor ratings. For me, armor was for when I fouled up selecting and using cover. Police have different work environments--mostly--and a patrol car is ALMOST protection from buckshot and pistol bullets. When rifles, belt-fed machine guns, and grenade launchers are in the mix (think drug cartels) the patrol cruiser is little more than a bullet magnet.
For future reference, the green ink on the left is a bit difficult to see on my screen.
And for color blind people...
Hear hear I second this.
I and IIA are the manifestation of DBZ Abridged Vegeta yelling "Why are you even here!"
Love these new standards, makes it way easier to cross reference different manufacturers plates and whether or not I should stock more m855A1. I need a 22” ar upper soon
Where are you getting stock on M855A1? The plate reference is for regular green tip M855 not A1.
@@syntaxerrorsix3137 there’s about 4 different sites I know of selling it for between 2.5-3$ a round. War pig armory is one I can remember. I’m pretty sure the nij will have special ratings for m855a1 like they did in the previous set of standards.
@@CheeseBurgerXJ That was my experience. Too little gain for $3 a round. I'll just stick to 193. Special threat plates almost never fall within NIJ as they don't do everything their classification says they will do.
For instance the Hesco L210. They'll stop M855 but not 7.62x51 so they don't count as level III. They did test well against M855A1 but they aren't rated for it even by the maker.
I think the best advise for most is to use whatever plate that can stop the ammo you carry.
No one wants to carry more than they need, it just sucks.
@@syntaxerrorsix3137lake city doesnt do service with the public BUT lastshotaz has m855a1 10 round stripper clips for sale for 29.99 for 10
@@CheeseBurgerXJ I remember when you could get a whole box of Czech SS109 for $3.
I remember the days when many LEOs never used their gun in an entire career! I am 66 years old.
Most still don't, but few do lots
I do to and thank you for your service! I am not leo however I have carried for 40 years as a law abiding citizen and never had to pull my revolver out once,except on deer season my old 586 Smith has take a few. Stay safe!
Great update explaining the new standards. I didn't realize they were changing them and it's about time they do. You did a great job and gained a sub.
A Handgun 2+ rating straight from NIJ for 50gr 9mm at 2000fps and 5.7 at 2000fps would've been cool.
5.7 is not really a real concern, the AP ammo is scare at best, the commercial ammo almost entirely sucks. And even when you do have it the AP ammo is kinda pathetic.
I like the exterior plate carriers, but I hate the ones that are made to look like your uniform button up, those just make it look like you’re overweight, they always look wrinkled and just don’t have that good look that regular plate carriers have
I have three levels of body armor.
1. Soft Kevlar that can be worn under shirt, tie, and suit.
2. Thicker, soft Kevlar that is worn over clothing. Also has a small pocket for a small steel or ceramic chest plate.
3. Front, back, and side ¼ inch AR500 heavy steel plate armor that is worn over clothing.
I have no idea how my armor fits into the new standards.
I’ve heard the spalling from those steel plates is deadly if it catches a round.
@@ndude101
Yes, that is why I cover my front plate with an anti-spalling material.
@@NarsuitusI don’t know much about this, I know it happens, has happened, and injuries and deaths have occurred…
I’m not 100% sure how anti spalling sprays work, either… or their effectiveness.
I would like to see tests tho, and like to see actual studies done. Armor isn’t cheap, and if it can be safer- more the better!
@@aandyherr817
I have not tried anti-spalling sprays.
I have, however, tried anti-spalling Kevlar and/or anti-spalling polycarbonate plastic materials in front of my steel plates and they work very well.
In addition a plate carrier’s fabric helps slow any fragments not completely caught by anti-spalling…
Effectively unless someone is loading AP .30 cal bullets in 300 BLK, the subsonic bullets typically are covered by IIIA, but then again there are so many variations it's hard to account for that, and likely why it's not included in a standard. Manufacturers can easily have special rifle threats / pistol threats added to their product testing, but then we get into the same gray areas we had with people adding the "+" to threat profiles..
8.6 BLK is another obscure threat, but I've found in testing that the long copper and brass solids are defeating IIIA and even some types of III/III+ panels due to their length and robustness over a typically jacket/lead core round.
I've found while RF3 plates are no inclusive in the NIJ's eyes to lesser threats, really have minimal issues with a majority of hunting rounds including 6.5 CM and 300 WM. Awhile back I shot 338 RUM at 400 yards COM to a lower quality NIJ 04 plate. The backface was only 22mm. .338 Lapua at the NIJ testing distance though can be an issue for penetration as well as backface, although in the real world CQB shots of 338LM aren't a thing.
You mentioned 5.7 showing up more frequently in homicides, are you able to mention what rounds have been recovered/used in those?
You’re not getting AP sub sonic anything 😂 you need speed and mass to defeat armour.
@@thomasmarchese2808the various testing I’ve done would say otherwise. 8.6 BLK subsonic solids defeat soft armor. 5.7 subsonics defeat IIIa soft and rigid. Bullet construction plays a big role. If the round doesn’t easily deform it has a good chance of going through.
@@thomasmarchese2808 specifically 8.6 BLK is designed to retain energy even at subsonic speeds equivalent to supersonic rounds, they do this by imparting more rotational energy with a higher rifling twist rate with a powder load that would normally make the cartridge supersonic.
@@thomasmarchese2808 If its something you're interested in, check out Russian 9x39 SP-6 & 7N12 cartridges. Comparable to the American 8.6 BLK but with tungsten or steel cores. not saying its a current threat on the streets of the US but there are definitely subs with AP capability.
8.6 Blackout uses the .338LM bullet. Yes it loses a lot of energy due to low velocity but the projectile itself will cause more back face deformation than you'd expect due to the sectional density.
When i worked as armed security guard i worn no body armor for years till i started working convoys and executive protection in other countries after working in that arena, and i returned to working as armed security guard few years later i worn my level 4 plates. I wouldnt want to wear soft body armor, today. My preference will always be level 4/rf3 as a dumb civilian
Hard plates for security is retarded for most US work unless your doing something like a nuke guard, all the guys we get in that don't know shit and run amazon gear typically are the ones running plate carriers and not soft vests, why armor up against rifles when that's used less than 3% of all armed crimes? Unnecessary weight is all it is, overseas 100% tho
@wompy-ru especially if that added weight comes at the cost of less coverage via a plate carrier or similar where the entire side is left open and exposed
@@wompy-ruI see plates being used by people who, simply can’t afford higher end soft armor… so, a piece of metal that will likely be more effective than nothing at a cheaper price, is very appealing.
It atleast provides limited protection, more than none, and some cases can protect against rifle rounds too in addition to all other ammunition you’re gonna see as a guard
All that to say, I’d recommend soft armor that’s gonna stop the ammunition you’re gonna encounter, and if you’re scared of rifles or anything that can pierce your armor, get plates on top of that armor … which is unlikely to occur.
It’s a safety blanket for the most part.
@@aandyherr817 lmao steel plates are worse than nothing
@@wompy-ru that's the type of security I also did d.o.e. nuke guard lol
I'm also curious about testing standards for shotguns. In my experience (just mine, so largely an opinion) shotguns have been the second most encountered firearm type after pistols. I personally know a number of people who aren't interested in guns in general, but have some old handed down shotgun in a closet. Not to mention as far as new guns go, you can't get anything much less expensive than a single shot or pump shotgun. I feel like there are a lot of them out in the wild and there's a really high probability of encountering a threat armed with one.
Both HG standards will stop your shotguns
HG1 will stop all your buckshot and lead soft core slugs
HG2 wil defeat MOST FMJ, sabot, and metalloid style slug
@@FenrisulfrSkarr Generally yes, but some handgun armor fails, especially in backface deformation when multiple pellets hit close together simultaneously. The energy from a bullet is partially dissipated as heat and it takes the fibers a certain amount of time (in milliseconds) to recover from each hit.
Thanks for the video! Overall, I gave up on NIJ and "NIJ Certification" and the "NIJ Approved List" when it became much less prestigious thanks to NIJ allowing tons and tons of Chinese and overseas manufacturers that were super sketchy on the "approved" list. This very much stopped being a seal of approval for quality control or some resemblance of safety. IMHO, it's like a way better sign to have an ISO certification then a NIJ certification, because what we really need in armor is the highest consistency and quality controls. Certainly Xinjing Armor Company ain't it, even if they can send in samples to get NIJ approval.
Looking at the 3,964 approved products they've removed all of the Chinese manufacturers (there's still a few overseas), but of the probably 100 product makers, the NIJ needs to really look into ensuring they have the highest standards of manufacturing. Just because an American company is on the list doesn't mean they're not shady.
Hopefully whomever is buying for the agency is doing some due diligence into a vendor who actually makes quality products and not just looking at a checkbox. I feel like there's a huge proliferation of armor in the last 10 years, with many are targeting tacti-cool civilians and they care more about the fashion/instagram than QA/QC.
I agree with extending this to include more practical threats, such as a SovCit is likely to have a 16" barrel shooting M855. Does RF1 cover that? .300 blackout and 5.7 are real and not going away, and there's now super-spicy 9mm, and more 10mm than ever before.
I stock up on m1152 9mm 115gr flat nose, 1300 fps from a 4” barrel. It still won’t go through 3a but I was thinking about getting a 357 sig for that
interesting that they've standardised the III+ that was heavily advertised as a manufacturer spec now.
My very first test was in 1989, and it was a level 3 A with titanium striker plates front and rear. I do remember that vest being a little heavy. In 1995, I got a new vest, also level 3 A with Composite striker plates front and rear. The last best I ended up with was in 2000, and it was still level 3 A.
My thought is that common hunting calibers including 6.5 creed, .270 and .300 win mag should be covered in RF 3 but when you start getting up to .338 lapua and other magnum hunting calibers these need to be their own level of protection. Most current level iv plates will stop them but to meet those back face deformation standards with something designed to down an elephant or big bear in one hit you’re going to have a much bulkier and heavier plate that is unnecessary for most applications
270, 6.5 will be stopped most likely by RF2
But all 3 of the listed ones will easily be stopped by NIJ-IV
The BFD requirement should be taken with a grain of salt.
There are very few, and none from post 2000s, known instances of hospitalizations or surgeries from back face deformations.
People are built different dramatically from animals.
Hard to test those rifles would very likely be used at long range where velocity is declining
This is why I'm a fan of alumina-PE plates. Will stop .308AP and are much lighter than steel. They are a little bulkier though. Should also stop a regular .338 LM bullet but an AP round would be pressing your luck. Even if it doesn't fully penetrate, it is gonna hurt you. Could still be fatal.
Great overview, thanks. I find it quite weird that larger handgun calibers, like .50AE are still not in there somewhere. Just as I find the rifle rating very strange. I would have expected RF1 to go mainly for the so called "Assault Rifle" calibers (7.62x39, 5.56 Nato, 300 Blackout, etc.), RF2 for the full rifle cartridges (308 Win, 300 WinMag, 7.62x51, etc) and finally have RF3 "upgraded" for all the high power calibers (30.06AP/30MK2 AP, 338 LM, 375 SwissP, etc.)
Hey baby, nice non-planar area.
You've transposed the numbers for HG1 and HG2 357 Magnum, from 1340 to 1430.
Good info and well explained.
Wow! That can be a bit confusing. Thanks for all that info, great video.
Good info! This is the first I've heard of this change in standards.
Great info Thanks! Being involved with the academy, I get quite a few questions about what ballistic vest to buy.
Good morning from Greece. I am a LEO over here. I see that between HG2 and RF1 there is no part about ahotguns.... 410 and 12 gauge could be used on my country because the law doesn't allow to own a rifle caliber gun for hunting, only for sport shooting, so there are more shotguns around than rifles. Could you please make a statement about this part of body armour. Great video, keep on brother in blue.
All the HG ratings can stop shotguns
HG1 will stop all buckshot youll encounter and lead slugs
HG2 will reliably stop MOST metalloid, FMJ, and sabot style slugs
@FenrisulfrSkarr Thanks for the answer my friend and your time!
I’ve been trying to educate myself on body armor and it was definitely more complicated than necessary under the old standards. Can’t see myself needing anything more than R1 under the new standards. Im not a cop or anything but don’t think most would need more than H1 normally and if you did H2 probably wouldn’t be enough
Love how they have not tested M855A1 which you can get via Army surplus already
The two A standard still being issued to some security officers on government contracts
“Security”
Contract govt security aren’t issued vests.
@@Shieldel depends on the contract
@@Shieldel DHS armed contract PSO are issued minimum NIJ level II vests. When I was on contract, I wore my own Point Blank level IIIa vest with front and rear Point Blank 10x12 level IV ceramic/aramid plates (Add-on, not SAPI) which weighed 17 pounds total. It was a left side opening design which was actually pretty comfortable as long as you didn't do much bending. It didn't show that bad under the uniform blouse.
@@946towguy2 that’s cool, we didn’t get crap on the FAA DOT contract
Theres level 1 ballistic clothing like shirts thetes a clothing manufacturer company that makes it for vip etc and a suit vest thats level 2 and a suit jacket thats level 3 A or close to it , basically idea is you layer it and they a suit vest thats level 3 A as well just thicker more noticeable but easly hidden under the suit jacket . Covert armor while still looking good expensive as hell usually bought by politicans people like that VIP etc
My first vest was a 1988 Safariland mass produced level 2. My newest one from Point blank custom fitted level 3 2019
Any stab requirements? Even if not a requirement, I'd like to see stab and cut resistance.
RF3 is probably not going to do well on 6.5 creedmoor or 300 winmag or 338 lapua. There is an interesting subsonic round with 338 bullet in a necked up 6.5 CM case that would be interesting (think 300 blackout but with heavier round and better BC). It's 8.6 BO is subsonic, suppressed, accurate, flat and effective to 600 yards at least. Probably not a threat to armor but very difficult to locate. Much more of a threat than 300 BO.
Do you have any case studies of real world use of 300 blackout versus law enforcement much less that super boutique round you're talking about?
Slash and spike rating is a different rating system entirely, and the plates for that are built a little different. Ballistic vests do offer a good amount of slash and spike resistance but they are not made for that threat so they are not rated for it.
Multithreat vests that offer both ballistic and spike rating often have two panels paired together. The ballistic panel, and a thinner spike panel. They get put together and put into the same carrier.
@@Jay-ho9io 300 BO is largely equivalent to a 230gr .45. Not long range. 8.6BO has rifle ranges and accuracy with subsonic suppression. It's an interesting threat because of its range and suppression capability. Much more of a threat than the 300BO.
There is NIJ-IV/RF3 plates that can reliably stop all those rounds listed, with no injury to the user, but theyre too expensive for any police department
Plus those threats are super super rare in the police world, so its not a focus.
@@FenrisulfrSkarrwhat manufacturers?
We need more info on dual threat armour and stab.
If you want to make a comprehensive standard, it really needs to incorporate the most common, non-hand loads.
Its fine to do the standard NATO stuff. But any body armor company wanting to really set the standard needs to break down the entire math picture and include distances measured.
Just within 5.56 you have...
45 gr copper, 55 gr frangible, 63 gr soft point (hunting), 70 gr AP (jacketed tungsten), 70 gr solid copper, 77 gr Sierra OTM... and thats not even trying.
Then add all the "new" 6mm ARC stuff... its pretty much the same as 5.56 but longer ranges... mostly.
Then add 6.5...
And 6.8, especially the 6.8 blackout at 1:2 twist.
All your .30 calibers (this includes 7.62) and
7mm...
And if you want to stop there, thats fine.
But thats mid chart. Not even close to a comprehensive test. And in the last 5 years 45-70 has also made a comback because its just a fun gun to own and rated for trexs (thanks chris pratt).
So, yeah. Id like a solid lineup, with every caliber, and have them list ammo type and manufacture, gun specs (including twist and barrel lengths), distance, and then move through testing. Would likely be around 30-50 different rounds tested, at every angle, to include wet and or dry. And list shots until avg failure.
Will it stop one 5.56 greentip round? Two? Fifteen?
Why is this important? Sometimes you're stuck. Seatbelt, in car, some guy walks up and unloads. Sometimes you're guarding something. Someone drives up and unloads. You can easily sustain 5-10 hits before even reaction times kick in and get you moving.
Thats the whole point, can armor protect you so you have a chance at surviving to return fire or get away? If no? You're not wearing high enough rated armor.
Im of the opinion that bodyarmor is rated for handguns first, rifles ... distant second. If it stops a rifle round, you're lucky.
And my understanding is that most armor is not really tested for shotguns. Esp 12ga solid slug or some of the nasty penetration rounds. Probably because its so easy to homemake shotgun ammo.
Have to agree especially about the rifle ratings at the top.
30-06AP is so rare, and so few people have access to both. Plus it's all Army surplus which is pretty mediocre in weight/velocity compared to more modern hunting loads. For sure have stuff rated for it, but if someone grabs their deer rifle to shoot at someone, there's a better chance it's 300WinMag than that it is 30-06AP/300WinMag and just because the armor can stop a 30-06AP from peneteration doesn't mean the 300WinMag won't potentially do severe blackface deformation.
We finally got vests. 2A but spike 2 as well which fits our needs. I don't love that our patrol guys still rock 2A though.
I would think that 300 BLK would be an easy test process, especially to include 5.7 (.22 cal spicier cousin) to be linked in with the new NIJ ballistic testing. Especially, with some of the popular hunting/anti-material cartridges .338 Lapua, .300 WIN MAG, and of course 6.5 CMR. If they switched their studies to pistol carbines for some of their testing, then they should have testing additional calibers as well. The other part of this would be grabbing the heads and sitting at the round table spit-balling ideas to include, but I wonder if that might be the reason. Not to include too much data so that it won't give "evil people" ideas perhaps. Unless most agencies are sporting IIIA or IV for everyday carry in uniform, I'm sure their plain clothes aren't sporting that (IMHO). But if they need testers to go through these rigorous procedures, I would be more than gladly fire their ammunition and firearms for empirical data. Just saying..... just provide room, board, drinking money, and internet. That's all I ask lol. I got some free time.
Thanks for information
No one uses round nose lead..however in 2008 we were required to still use round nose lead at brinks armored
Had several shootings from 300blk where I work. We caught the guy and he had a mag full of 5 7 rounds. No gun in the car but at some point he did have it. First time seeing that round in the wild
Very useful summary, thank you!
Dude, I just saw your, "Law Enforcement only" green tip short video. And all I can do is laugh. I may or may not have a few myself. Not to mention "things" Law Enforcement can only wish they had.
@JavierTorres-py6rp Another successful shorts video trolling in the books. FN marks the boxes "law enforcement only" but I bought that ammo on lucky gunner with nothing more than $35 and a smile. The FN green tip "law enforcement only" ammo is just lead free ammo with a little extra velocity. As such it does a bit better against level 2 and some older level 3A vests than the other "consumer spec" or "sporting" 5.7 ammo.
Good stuff, Tommy.
Back in rhe 90's I knew a CHP Officer friend who was the Range Master who quailfied his Officers. When he went out in the Field he ALWAYS wore 2 -3A Vests because he knew how painful the BFT was!!!
Ok so i just bought level 111a+ and icw rifle plates the plates with 3a+ gets me level 4. But i still thing they could do better in testing to cover the more used ammo, 6.5, 338, 243, 6mm, 7mm, 300win mag. I hope what i just bought will last a while.
Question to @free field training, etc. I own a number of plate carriers and plates from steel to ceramics+.. I also happened to purchase a bunch of SafeLife 3A+ soft armor for my family less than 3 months before the pandemic kicked off.. Ironic, right? I went with SL 3A+ soft due to sharp objects like shanks and compound bolts.. It is a bit bulky, but I tell you what.. I didn't purchase anything of it to be stealthy.. I'm in Texas.. We don't have to.. That being said, I really like the fit of what you are wearing in this video... I'm rusty with body armor.. That isn't FRAS, is it? Definite new Sub and like.. Great info on the first video I have watched.. Off to the next..
Thanks for the information man, and thanks for your service to your community!
I agree I and IIa are useless.
Is safe lite up to date with these new requirements?
So instead of creating new categories, we're gonna make body armor too expensive for poor depts and civilians. Vast improvement.🙄
If you're a civilian looking for bargains right now, you might be able to snap up some deals on armor that passed the old standards but fail the new standards.
Looks like all they’ve done is eliminate the lowest (useless) ratings and added minimal protections. If you were buying reasonable cheap armor (3A or 3) I don’t see how this would have price impact if you get HG2 or RF1.
Uh, no. We DID create new categories and nothing has suggested that it was going to be priced out of the market. What video did you watch?
Weren't the I and II designed for primary threat of a knife?
No. Stab armor is a separate category.
Thanks for the info
Problem is even if you stop a .300 winmag from penetrating, the brute force from a round that hot will shatter the bones behind it and cause internal bleeding or organ damage at the least. If you get hit mid sternum, that much force on your heart in an instant can actually cause it to stop. Yes, you can stop it from going into your body, but the thousands of pounds of energy from a round that hot still has to go somewhere, right?
That's why you need a plate to stop that caliber. However, one thing I think the industry has overlooked is the potential for inclusion of relatively thin and somewhat flexible composite panel on the backface of an otherwise soft vest. Would greatly cut down on internal injuries by helping to spread out the force when hit with a round on the upper end of what the vest can stop. Also the potential of honeycomb material as an impact absorber is similarly being overlooked.
@@Lurch-Bot idk, .300 winmag is an awful lot to stop within say ~100 yards. Even if you do stop it, it’s still imparting several thousand ft/lbs of energy, which will surely knock you down and break bones or damage internal organs/cause internal bleeding through the impact alone. I sure wouldn’t wanna be on the receiving end of it either way haha
Is armor really going to help with 300 win mag or 338 lapua? Wouldn't the energy alone be enough more than likely?
Nope, theres quite a bit of plates that fall in the 44mm guideline that stop those.
While the 44mm bfd is outdated, and back face deformation injuries are EXTRAORDINARILY RARE (only 5 recorded before 2010)
As long as its in those limits, its not an issue.
@FenrisulfrSkarr I would say a lot of variables would matter in that context, and even if it doesn't penetrate, I would think that individual would be out of the fight either way 🤷
It really depends. If a round if deflected, then only a portion of the energy needs to be absorbed. Also, the energy which is absorbed is spread across the area of the plate and then further dissipated by the carrier in a plate and jacket system. A 220 grain 300 Win mag bullet hitting a 6# plate is about a 1:300 ratio and if the hit is at a 30 degree angle, then it is more like a 1:450 ratio. That roughly equates to the equivalent to being hit by a 570# motorcycle at 5 mph or being hit by a 250# NFL player at 8mph. The 338 would be like that motorcycle hitting you at about 10 mph. Shooting the rifle doesn't take the shooter's shoulder off.
I had a vest stop (more accurately, a deflection) wearing a III+ vest during an attempted home invasion. The bullet and casing were never found but I have reason to believe it was 5.7 FN. I never saw the person who shot me but that appeared to be what their accomplices were carrying.
I had a very serious kidney injury. The kidney was minimally functional for quite some time. Took about 3 years to recover to the point it is now functioning at maybe 90% of its original flow rate.
Because of all this, I suspect they were using AP rounds and if I had been wearing a lighter vest, I probably would not be able to make this comment. While it couldn't be conclusively determined via inspection, I am fairly certain the bullet penetrated some of the layers of the vest.
Funny thing is, I didn't even notice I'd been hit until it was all over and took off the vest. I had a large bruise and a red streak across my side that looked just like rugburn.
Of course I have no way of knowing, but I suspect fairly few knucklehead door kicker burglers are running 5.7 FN. Those guns run around $1,500.
With no casing found I'd tend to suspect a revolver and from the wallop it packed maybe a magnum.
I imagine some of the lag is just testing. It takes a while to develop and then certify a new product
If my reading is correct the 300 black out and the 5.8 were developed to defeat soft body armor
Well... Your reading is incorrect.
@@212caboose please more information
No special rounds were needed to defeat soft armor. Not in rifle calibers. Pretty much any centerfire rifle round will defeat soft armor.
Subsonic 300AAC has about the same energy as a .45ACP with a better coefficient. It's not defeating soft armor.
@@syntaxerrorsix3137 interesting to know that, thank you
What about level 3+ from safe life defense??
This is excellent information and thank you for the video. Pardon my skeptic nature, but the FED's have a nasty tendency to avoid posting information above Level IV ~ RF 3. Why, I can only speculate. From my perspective it would be relevant for industry standardization and marketing for safety construction. People (let's assume affluent) want safety rooms, resistant vehicle, etc etc etc. They tend to be focused on data and finance. How do you assure them if you don't have the facts to back up your claims?
I remember when even the bad guys respected LEOs. Wear your vest each and every time. Be safe!
May not get killed directly by backface deformation but I'd imagine its pretty hard to shoot back with a rib through your lung.
You can get great deals on body armour. You can make your own using excellent everyday materials that stop bullets for those that have low to no income
Would have been nice to show the different types
Look bossman 5.7 was designed for operators to shoot other more Russian operators. If anybody designs soft armor that stops it especially proper AP quite frankly the material patent will be the next big thing since Kevlar.
A III+ vest saved my life when I was hit with a 5.7 FN AP round in an attempted home invasion. I had a serious kidney injury though because the AP bullet made the impact force concentrated in a smaller area than it would be with a standard bullet. I also think some of the outer layers of Kevlar were penetrated but you couldn't really be sure by looking at the vest. Cops never returned it so I couldn't send it back to the MFG for inspection.
Back about 6 years ago, CW Armor had (has?) The thinnest level III armor.
Can't read the green on your whiteboard, video. Could be half the length if you didn't go off on so many tangents
Armor should protect against your own weapon. That's also how they designed battleship armor protection back in the day.
Make Roman chest armor plates great again!
What about level 3+ from safe life defense?? 18:24
I remember nobody wore body armor. Good ole days. 😂
Back when they were held accountable...
I'm curious what the vest is in the thumbnail.
What about all that Chinese-surplus steel-cored 7.62x39? What's it going to take to defeat that?
Majority of steel core 7.62x39 including Chinese surplus is just mild steel, barely more penetration then regular lead fmj, any lvl4 should easily be enough
@@Ryan-cv9ww I have ceramic level IV plates in my plate carrier. It would be nice if there was something between level III and level IV, rated to defeat that steel-core 7.62x39, so that I didn't have to carry level IV plates.
@@DortonFarb that’s what special threat or 3+ plates are for, just look and make sure it’s a reputable company and they specifically say it’s rated for steel core 7.62x39, if you’re concerned about weight they have some really light lvl 4s that are lighter then 3s but they are too pricey for me. If anything buy an extra plate same make and model you already have and test it yourself, you’d be surprised at what some things can stop, I had a groin plate that was only lvl 3 and I hit it with 7.62x54r api and it actually stopped it. You’re balls would be mush from deformation but still there
@@Ryan-cv9ww Level III+ would stop that. You're going to have injuries but it will likely save your life.
Keep it simple and get safelife... It covers the most and the best compared to "better" armor... The 3a+lvl4 plate can stop a 50bmg... You might die from the impact but the fact it can stop a 50
I can recommend Bullet Safe. Their III+ soft vest stopped 5.7 AP during an attempted home invasion.
.308 ball, 12 gauge 00 buck, 12 gauge slug ?
What about m855a1?
Will the new RF2 also stop m855A1?
Not sure. The standard specifies regular 855 at 61.8 ± 1.5 grain at 3115 ft/s.
The exact performance parameters of the A1 seems a bit hard to come by. It may require RF3 to reliably stop.
You'd think that the 5.7 and 300 blackout have been around long enough they'd have tested it by now.
Media - as RUclips is now international can we get Source Country.
So can HG2 still stop 12 gauge 1 oz slug?
Depends on the material and design more than anything with slugs
HG2 will defeat all your common day to day slugs, including self defense loads
HG1 can defeat lead cores typically.
Id also like to see testing against monolithic copper bullets, like your Leigh defense / barnes ttsx type stuff
Copper tends to be easily stoppable, because its a softer metal.
Its only slightly harder than lead, but is normally used for its wind deflection and ballistic coefficient contribution
@FenrisulfrSkarr I dont know, Id still be interested to see. Most of the tests Ive seen shot copper rounds penetrating deeper. If you have some examples of this being tested Id be interested to take a look. I would think, especially with something like the Lehigh defense penetrator round, youd have very little buĺlet deformation, and that might lead to better armor penetration.
great vid! wear Hyperline also
Nice, as with everything change occurs with time - been a long time since Rich Davis was shooting himself to sell his product.
Been a long time since we had inventors willing to put their own life on the line to test their product in general. You don't see Elon going up on one of his rockets. I don't count the Ocean Gate dude. He was just an idiot.
The 220 SWIFT and 22-250 ammo can reach 4150 FPS.
Good explanation
What do people do with old armor? Donate it?
Armor is a life limited product. You throw it away when it gets to a certain age and buy a new one, which will be specified by the manufacturer. Same as an old motorcycle helmet because performance will degrade substantially with age.
@@Lurch-Bot Armor that is cared for well and especially lightly to rarely ever worn like tends to happen with prepper civilians will last way beyond its official warranty date.
I would have no qualms about using soft armor 10 years beyond its date and for properly maintained plates 20 or more.
The reality is unless you buy armor when you are still pretty young, you're going to expire before that armor will.
If you wear it all day for a security or LE job in all kinds of heat and weather, then you've got to be more mindful of condition and wear. Even then I'd be loath to throw it out upon replacement. Still good for backups, training etc.
Even a truly old vest that is somewhat sub-par is still vastly better than none if you're in a pinch.
i didnt know what m855 was, but now i learned! its 5.56 AP, and im a semantic asshole so i gotta say, 7.62x51mm is essentially .308, so things like your grandpas hunting rifle; the FAL, etc
all in all a great video! im more of a gun newbie than anything, and i learned a bunch! i like that the new standards simplify it to HG- Handgun and RF- Rifle instead of those numbered plates, its easier to remember
5.56 AP is M993, or black tip.
Nope. M855 is the standard military style of 556. It has a steel core which does increase penetration but not ridiculously so. It’s been largely replaced in military service with m855a1. In other nato countries it’s called ss109
416 Rigby ftw
Do you think you can do a inclement and extreme weather video? Natural disasters. Floods. Ice. Snow. Tornados
I understand that Civilizations feel the need to wear Body Armor to protect themselves against Intruders and Muggers! I feel for those Honest people who need the protection. Unfortunately what the Armor Companies don't tell you and Police are Aware that the Blunt Force Trauma is VERY Painful!!! Officers that were shot (on RUclips)where the bullets impact caused Broken Surface Skin by the bullet! I developed a Trauma Reduction Insert Panel and Unfortunately when I loaned it to another Company they stole my Sample and intend to take credit for it!!!! Many will notice that outdoor testing is done with Rubber Manicins and NOT Ballistic Clay??
Considering I independently had this idea years ago after experiencing a vest stop, it would have occurred to lots of people.
I was wearing IIA soft armor when I was shot in '94. It did the job against 20 gauge birdshot. I was very grateful to have had it.
It still hurt like a son of a bitch. These days I have a plate carrier with class IV plates, which I wear over I!A soft armor.
I'll probably get shot in the face.
Level IIA is probably still made to protect against shrapnel.
Mostly undershirt body armor for undercover officers and such.
Its not exactly entirely outdated, because it does stop your common 9mm threats, 380, small carry pistols, etc, but it is definitely the lowest demoninator that should be tolerated for modern police.
👍👍
914 Miller Lane
Lmao dudes will still buy steel plates and Non-NIJ'd plates, lol most of them dont even realize you can just lookup companies on the NIJ CPL to see model status or if it even has one
Imagine being part of a profession that has abused people so much, that they have to wear body armor every day. Says an awful lot.
It starts from the top, and it will never change unless Law Enforcement makes the first step toward repairing their perception.
There All useless. 30.06.
@@MichaelGranger-z3w
Yes, especially 30-06 armor piercing.
More alphabet agency bullshit
Ignorance is bliss!
@@charliefoxtrot5001Very articulate 😂
@@edwardvanduzer4284 If you don't know then you don't know, leading you to make ignorant comments about "alphabet agency bullshit". 🤷
Feel free to be more articulate by actually making an argument, using the Internet that was originally created by the US DOD. 😅😂🤣
@@charliefoxtrot5001 nothing ignorant about me or my comments. But you keep talking , Im sure someone out there really cares 😊
@@edwardvanduzer4284 Got it. You have no actual argument. So, yes, ignorance is bliss, since you seem to have no idea about the standards for body armor and why the NIJ is defining them. 🤦
I believe that Body Armor should ONLY be sold to Law Enforcement Officers! Security Officers and Security Guards. TOO many Civilians own Armor and that can be Dangerous to L.E.O.s!!!!!?
We have the right to buy it but it’s useless for civs
How is wearing armour endangering LEO's?
@@gusjeazerstopping people wearing it.
No more dangerous than the possibility of civilians waking around with concealed firearms, a thing that is perfectly legal in most places in the US, sometimes with no license requirement. Please share with us how you feel about that.
@@Jay-ho9io ?
They want to take this away from you.
What about level 3+ from safe life defense?? 18:24
What about level 3+ from safe life defense?? 18:24