TF2: Does Pyro ACTUALLY Need Airblast? (Experiment)
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- Опубликовано: 27 дек 2022
- Airblast has always remained a pretty controversial mechanic within team fortress 2. From back when it wasn't even free 2 play to post jungle inferno. With how polarizing airblast is to casual and competitive players alike, I wanted to try out playing pyro without airblast. That is what I do within this video.
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• Pyro main doing pyro t...
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If I had a nickel for every time a TF2 RUclipsr tried to justify a reason why they needed to use the phlog for an extended period of time out of two nickels, which isn’t a lot but it’s weird that it happened twice
If I could've used anything else I would've.
I used phlog because most players with a brain will know that I can't reflect anything. (Sure casual players don't think about it but still worth thinking about)
Also would've been lame to just use stock and unbind mouse2. Especially when I needed mouse2 for the detonator.
elmaxo moment
sure dude
@@champion99999 ????????
@@champion99999 ????????
"If your bad, your bad, if your good, everybody complains about it"
- airblast in a nutshell
YOU'RE*
@@isitonathroneofmethadone6563 noice
@@isitonathroneofmethadone6563 shut
This applies to everything in tf2
High damage in any game.
Fun Fact: Air Blast was added to the Pyro so he could have more counter play and it wasn't in his kit original.
True
It hasn't always been a feature
You know unusual sandwich could've just unbound right click for the flamethrowers and he would've ACTUALLY been able to judge all the flamethrowers!
@@vintagememelord8168 unbinding M2 would have also handicapped the Detonator and Manmelter though?
@@vintagememelord8168 well he had to use the phlog so that the enemy team knew he couldn't airblast. The experiment was to simulate Pyro not having airblast, and if he was the only one who knew he couldn't airblast it wouldn't be an accurate representation.
Another fun fact is that the air blast was actually supposed to be a fire missile instead of the air blast. It Was in old Tf2 Footage showcasing the game.
Airblast is a post-release addition into the game that I consider to be mandatory for the identity of TF2 as a unique game. Much like Heavy's sandvich and the payload gamemode, airblast is a core component of TF2.
Every other FPS with a flame thrower is just press m1 to torch dudes, meanwhile tf2's pyro has the ability to say "No, Fuck YOU!" To attackers with projectiles and unskilled uber pushes.
A pyro can be shut down by timing your shots well, playing a little half-second game of chicken, waiting for him to airblast, and then releasing a rocket or pipe. As for uber pushes, just (and bear with me here, this is controversial) shooting the pyro before focusing on the sentry nest you want to take out.
On the other hand, if you want to play with a flamethrower and set people on fire and just feel like you're in Meet the Pyro... the flamethrower tends to feel like a glorified leaf blower because of how focused on Airblast it is.
A lot of the time I still have no idea why would I ever use my primary fire if I have a shotgun.
You know unusual sandwich could've just unbound right click for the flamethrowers and he would've ACTUALLY been able to judge all the flamethrowers!
@@kubaGR8 there’s also the issue where no opponent that’s aware of your existence will let you get in range to use the flamethrower so all the flamethrower flamethrowers aren’t really useful as a primary damage damage option except maybe on defense in indoor maps where the opponent is forced to push into your range so your secondary becomes the primary damage dealer and your primary is a defensive utility ( or useless in phlog’s case) like legitimately with the whole scorch shot phlog setup people say makes phlog usable you should really just never use the phlog and just keep spamming scorch shot ( and if you really wanna max out your damage on defense on maps where the enemies are forced to push into you it’s outdamaged by degreaser panic attack pyro anyway lol) Mobility secondaries help some but they either are very limited in distance or how much you can use them so anything that isn’t heavy should still be able to evade you can’t avoid their detection. Luckily the dragon’s fury exist so there is one primary that actually functions as a primary
@@ultimaterecoil1136 this is unrealistic unless you're exclusively playing on something like cp_orange. Every other map has enclosed spaces and flanks that pyro excels at utilizing for ambushes. There's only so much that a skilled player can predict.
@@dank6554 even in such cases most of the flamethrowers will lose out in a one vs one or at best you kill them post mortem with afterburn in most cases if you exclusively use flamethrowers for damage . Pyro’s secondaries are their primary form of damage. If you just hold a flamethrower on even an engineer even they can win one vs one if they hit their shots. Though that’s more an issue with sustained fire weapons in general in this game. Even when a opponent’s unaware sometimes pyro would still lose if you just use the flamethrowers. That’s because effectively the stock flamethrower is a utility and pyro’s secondary is effectively their primary for damage. Those corners you are using to ambush will simultaneously be used to cut your damage by only allowing you to get in damage while being hit at the same time and the burst damage weapons win out in this situation ( so like most other classes primaries for example) heck I’ve beaten pyros who foolishly only use their primary as a medic with this since even point blank crossbow has significantly higher burst damage. The only flamethrower who is ok in this situation is the one who doesn’t need to ambush. Pyro’s primary slot is not gonna be most your damage it’s gonna be your secondary ( or rarely even your melee) with the primary slot serving as a utility/defensive slot. Taking away air blast takes away the whole point of most flamethrowers on pyro leaving only dragon’s fury as the only viable option as it’s the only viable primary in terms of being your primary form of damage
this is like saying "does engineer ACTUALLY need to be able to move buildings" they add it for a reasona and it makes the class need&have much MUCH more fun and effectiveness and it adds a layer of skill to playing that class
and yet yes it is annoying but fighting a competent pyro is as annoying as fighting any other competent player and unless you're fighting a sniper main you can still play the game
@@Soapromancer that's not a Sniper nerf, that's anti-bot measures
@@Soapromancer vac medic shuts down literally any single player. It's pulling out 1/3 of an uber built in 1/3 of the time it would normally take to just walk all over a lone person.
@@Soapromancer Not melee lmao
@@TidalFang me when I go caber knight and I 1 crit their vacc medic
@@totallynotdsl8507 if i had a nickel for everytime that my caber didn't explode i would be a millionaire now
I feel like this is similar to asking "Does Soldier need rocket jumping?" or "Does Demo need sticky spamming?". Short answer is no, but it takes away a huge component of the class. Additionally, removing air blast would just be a buff to Soldier and Demo in that it removes what little counter play those two classes face. It probably wouldn't be obvious in this video because you're just 1 Pyro not using air blast, but imagine all the other Pyros not using it either. The Short Circuit would be the only defense against projectile spam.
“Pyro is so boring, it’s just W+m1”
*pyro gets airblast*
“Airblast needs to be removed, it’s too punishing for soldiers and demos who can’t just spam you to death”
I'd even dare say airblast needs a buff specifically against demo because the way it affects stickies currently is... not great, and the fact that even facing airblast demo still has as much freedom as he does to spam stickies I think makes a good example of how he and soldier could operate with any blast gun were airblast not there to at least require they sometimes adapt to an environment that isn't as open to that playstyle.
They do run a fairly generalist kit that can do many things with its imposing damage power, and as a result they're just good across the board. I'd even call it contradictory to tf2 itself, given how there are plenty of scenarios where specific weapons or even classes entirely like engineer or scout (and even pyro) can struggle to function as well in the general setting of a match - pyro won't do well in a wide open map or against many engineers, engi won't do well on offense (at least as normal defense focused engi) if his team can't push defense back to give him setup cover, etc. Soldier and demo face this a lot less; outside of demoknight and trolldier they often won't even need to swap weapon loadouts due to how well their weapons serve multiple purposes, making them rarely lose strength outside of particular cases (like a scottish res demo trying to play offensively and push, as scottish res sacrifices some capability to push to hold areas far better) airblast offers more cases where they can't just mindlessly do that, potentially even needing to swap kit items (soldier shotgun) to ensure options on a pyro that are less threatening to themself. It won't always be the case - airblast is hit or miss and takes a lot of timing and reflex control due to how incorrect visuals often seem.
It just seems that most longtime players of the classes are so used to the class seeing little resistance in general that on the rare occasions a pyro either has lucky timing or is actually practiced enough to challenge their mindless spam, they flip the hell out and act like the victim, like they have no way of counterplay. Pyro as a class has less he can do to counter an enemy sniper than a soldier does to counter an enemy pyro.
I had some godrank soldier try spamming me down when we were alone for a moment on sunshine and after 3 reflects in a row (he had spent rocket 4 jumping into a health kit where I found him) he just instantly drops a bind about pyro complaining, like - sure dude, you act like you're not using the original and gunboats like some dime a dozen sweat and just can't fathom being outplayed when going meta, but whatever.
The only thing i think is a bit excessive is the mini-crits
I really disagree, I do think Pyro needs airblast without it at every range his dps is lower than almost everyone, but he also has a range where he can't do anything unless you take a secondary that means that if you fight a Pyro with a shotgun your practically a free kill, Pyro is crippled with low range but doesn't really get much for it, outside of airblast, it's really telling that to valve triple damage with no falloff is considered a fair trade for no airblast, and the dragons fury getting a shitty airblast for the chance to 2 tap people at close range, if Pyro lost airblast he would need something really significant to make up for it otherwise outside of people that are sick of the spy that stabbed then in there face 5 times in a row no one would play pyro and gamemodes like payload will essentially becomes shoot rockets down range on a dispenser because the enemt physically can't dodge that many rockets, and they just can't deal with them
meanwhile solarlight and raw crying in the corner that pyro can counter demoknight and spy:
There's a reason trading airblast is worth full crits, it's literally the best part of his toolkit and I can definitely say I wouldn't main pyro without it.
I can't help teammates, deny uber pushes, clear sticky traps (As easily), melee combos are neutered, can't deal with sentries or demoknights well, and overall survivability drops.
Don't forget no airblast means you also become less tanky not getting heals from extinguishing players, and your no longer able to put out burning players unless you use the gas passer, the jetpack, or the man melter, and even then the jetpack barely works for extinguishing players in good conditions let alone ones that matter
Giving pyro full cries on exchange for air blast is not a good idea. Perma-phlog? Oh god…
@@TJ-hg6op They meant how the phlog works. Not giving pyro 3x damage.
People who want Airblast removed or think unironically nerfing Pyro (or engineer and spy for that matter) is a good idea complete astound me
I say airblast is fine until they push back targets, specifically ubered targets. Airblast should be a middle finger to Kritzkrieg and a foot on Vaccinator, but Quickfix and Medigun are snubbed by it. Quick Fix nulls knockback, but reduces uber healrate to 54 hp a second if constantly on fire, and medigun itself gets shafted because knockback delays a push and thus limits time.
@@Spiffyo the Pyro however is taking a significant risk by trying to go toe to toe with an ubered player that can easily kill them to try and stuff it. It fits Pyro’s current role of being a class that can easily protect teammates
@@supermudkipz Oh it makes sense why its allowed and I'm fine with it stuffing 2 uber types, but ping ponging the stock medigun's medic/target and dampening the overall effectiveness of another, just feels wrong for whats made to push through a harsh defense or flip off an offensive push.
my 2 cents is that pyro is the weakest class in the game without airblast that isn't spy. without airblast, he's only slightly better than other power classes in his effective range and nigh useless outside of it. without airblast, pyro loses his array of utilities like weakening projectile spam and putting out burning teammates. how could anyone be so angry that they want to make one of the best supportive classes lose his niches
@@grammajam3682 people tryna paint pyro as a purely offensive class... the stock flamethrower and half of their non primary unlocks are support oriented
soldier mains are straight up NPCs dude they'll feed 4 rockets in a row into me from across the map, pull out a shotgun and do only 3 damage 6 times because theyre at max range, and then shoot another rocket die to the reflect and act like its the games fault
i saw a video where a guy was playing soldier and he was crying about airblast midway through, then started praising the battalions because "he could stop the brainless airblasting pyros"
if the pyro is airblasting all of the rockets brainlessly than you're firing brainlessly
@HeHedron
Airblasting requires: perfect timing, perfect positioning, aiming quickly, memorizing projectile hitbox sizes
Rockets require: left click on enemy legs
@@DannyCheezits well clearly youtube said it so it must be right
also he actually ran into unusualsandwich in that video and got clipped lol
Yes. Yes the Pyro does need it.
Source: I have a Grizzled Veteran and played Pyro for hundreds of hours before airblast was in the game. They need it.
understandble
He*
@@Iron_Soil why is it a he?
@@Iron_Soil
Why are you trying to call the gender ambiguous gas masked pyromaniac who thinks he spreading love and joy to babies but he’s actually committing crimes against humanity a man, does that really matter in this conversation?
@@Iron_Soil They*
Never confirmed anywhere they were either. Quit with your political bullshit.
Next Up: Does Spy Actually Need Cloak
turns out? actually they don't, if the cloak is compensated with speed instead
Next video: Does Spy actually need backstabs? No becuase if you change spies primaries to a slightly larger gun with a scope amd guaranteed crits on headshot, and let him have that use at any range, he becomes very fun and unique. I feel like I’m forgetting something, I just don’t know what it is?
*Next Up:* Should Spy get a new sapper unlock?
The answer is yes, but the solution is no
@@agiantw6890 isn't that just sniper?
@@mikonson4091 thats the joke
Yes.
Yes he does, I don't even need to watch the video to know that.
Owls need HUGS
Mini-crits for reflect projectiles is extremely necessary. Its an reward for reflecting an projectile back at an opponent (which doesn't sound hard on paper but is much more complicated in practice) and because damage falloff exist, reflect projectiles damage would be laughable miniscule without the effect of mini-crits ignoring damage fall-off.
Fall-off is based on distance to the player who shot it and not the total distance travelled, unless you're reflecting a rocket to the other side of the map, the fall-off wouldn't matter much
pyro isn't an air blast class, the whole point of air blast is to reflect projectiles away from you, others, and building that get in the way of projectiles. I don't think it makes sense to reward extra damage to a class that does amazing on its own at face range. Air blast is more of a utility and does not need to inflict minicrits on projectiles because it shouldn't be used as a way to do reliable damage when the rest of pyro's intended loadout does that exact thing if not much better.
@@sauce1492 reliable? what fucking reliability? its practically the oposite of reliablity, its entirely dependant on the enemy player shooting when they know pyro has airblast
@@sauce1492 The thing is, it's much easier to aim rockets or pipes as a soldier/demo than it is reflecting them as a pyro. Also, airblasting can chew through a pyro's ammo a lot faster than the enemy shooting at you
@@sauce1492 cranky because your rocket got airblasted, arentcha
**I KNOW I DIDN'T USE THE RESERVE SHOOTER, I FIRMLY BELIEVE IT SHOULD BE A SOLDIER-ONLY SECONDARY**
**PLEASE DO NOT READ THIS UNTIL THE VIDEO IS OVER**
This video certainly wasn't the best thing I've produced but it was at least interesting.
I know my results were a bit complicated so I'll go a little more into it via a comment.
Overall I do believe pyro needs airblast. I can't deny how helpful it is for yourself and your team. The amount of times I've saved a teammate from being annihilated by a rocket are practically endless. Plus I believe everything should be able to be countered by something, airblast serves to counter projectiles (if you can time it well). As much as it's unfun to fight, it adds a lot to pyro and I personally wouldn't want it removed. But it could definitely be tweaked for balance (expect a video eventually)
I said no for casual settings since I was doing relatively well regardless of the weapons I was using. I've played the game long enough to know my way around maps and with that can easily take advantage of certain spots or avenues. That's something that you NEED if you choose to play without airblast, It's certainly more difficult than just playing pyro, but it is far from being impossible (in casual).
Of course it is necessary in comp settings, highlander pyro would be pathetic without airblast, when most classes can out-speed, deal more damage, and easily counter pyro. There is no way to be effective against fully-aware opponents when you have such little options. You would simply just be dead weight for your team and that sucks.
pyro tf2 (real)
Was I the only one who saw the hidden Mario?
You haven't lived until you've lined up an airblast juggle into RS minicrit. Seriously, the RS has niche utility on Pyro
interesting how saying "been playing for almost 6 years" means "since 2017". I remember how someone that had been playing for 6 or 7 years used to meant 2011, 2012. The passage of time sure is brutal.
Also, the little teaser at the end was very cinematic. Good job, made me excited to see that video
I honestly feel like only really salty and highly inexperienced players would whine about the airblast like that. It's a very risky and precise action that is rather difficult to pull off and master - and when it comes to shooting at a pyro who uses airblast, you can easily counter it by switching to a hitscan weapon or just by making unpredictable intervals between your shots. I'm tired of brainless soldiers that play with the left mouse click held by default and then complain that pyro is OP.
Pyro mains need to be cut some slack fr, if I get reflected that's my L and a skill W for the pyro
Man, players this days are just complaining about everything that can kill them. Soldier tryhard with medic girlfriend, spies, sometimes engies and even other pyros are whining about airblast altering their playstyle and easy countering some parts of their kit. And in the next minutes they are playing darwin danger shield snipers, so stupid
@@agnos9884 As my experience shows, spamming the airblast is useless until you're extra lucky. You're forgetting that TF2 is an extremely fast-paced game. 1 second of internal between airblasts is A LOT. It takes about half a second for a rocket or any other projectile to reach you within the close-medium range so this interval actually makes a pyro pretty vulnerable.
I didn't even mention stickies that are pushed away very slowly and unreliably so a demo can keep brainlessly spamming them everywhere and more than half of a time, a pyro won't be able to stop it.
So, overall, my statement still stays - airblast DOES take skill to use it reliably.
@@agnos9884 The pushing part of airblast is already balanced by the very fact that pyro needs to get very close to their enemy and use airblast in the right direction instead of just using the fire. It requires very strong positioning skill and good map knowledge (yes, it's easier to do on some ledges but it still requires the right angle or otherwise your enemy will be pushed just a couple of meters).
Not knowing the right angles of the airblast can easily lead to pyro dying very quickly when trying to push someone because the most important push targets can deal a boatload of damage when being so close to you and the weaker targets like engineers, medics, and snipers would die to a quick fire spray anyway so pushing them away is very extra and sometimes might accidentally save them from pyro
@Agnos can u all shut up about hitbox already, they doubled the height of it in jungle inferno. That's nowhere near as impactful as increasing the width or length would be
and in general the first couple of points just demonstrate that u've never played pyro against soldier (or god forbid demo) with brains
Pyro's whole purpose is area denial. He denies opponets from closing in with his flames and projectiles with airblast. Without airblast, you take away Pyro's ability to deny area and massively buff soldiers and demos into just spamming into oblivion. Airblast forces the explosive classes to be more careful and smart about how they go about their attack.
i didn't even know there was an extinguishing reward with jarate and mad milk until now, that's how weak the reward is lol
Considering how broken jarate is as a secondary it's not like it needs one
I dont get how 20% recharge is weak honestly, one fifth of something isnt that low
@@AncientFire because if your at 100% charge with jarate/mad milk & you extinguish someone your now on 20% which is less. if i didnt think jarate was op id suggest adding the 20 hp restored on extinguish but like jarate is op & it needs a nerf not a buff
@@artifactU 20
@@AncientFire ok but why extinguish someone if the reward isnt as good as just not extinguishing someone
as a soldier i’m surprised there’s people who hate airblast, i don’t mind having a matchup where i have to think because i feel so powerful vs literally anyone else
it’s not even that hard to play around it because of the cooldown and worst case scenario u just have to start using shotgun
Or be extra based and switch to Gardening
A small tip from extensive research is that you can hold down right click with the detonator and do a detonator jump for MAXIMUM JUMP. Since as soon as the flare spawns in; it will detonate almost instantaneously since you are holding right click, this will result the flare exploding closer to the center of your hit box.
I just think their should be more options for every class, not removing them.
I really dont get the anti-airblast debate, it punishes over zealous reactions and gives an otherwise boring, terrible class something interesting
actually true, i like fighting pyros as soldier coz that's no "spam ground/actually hit target until they die" scenario
Its probaly only certain soldier/demo mains that want it gone because they cannot handle using their brain.
@@benismann More like "Shit my main weapon is useless and if I'm using anything other than a shotgun I'm dead" That's what always happens to me anyway, I'm forced into putting away the tool that benefits my entire team the most in exchange for a more selfish playstyle just to off some dumb cunt with a flamethrower so I can keep providing for the team. Either that or pray to god someone with hitscan weapons can kill the pyro so I can resume my role.
I personally play pyro way too aggressive and whenever i use the phlog i die so much more just because i dont have airblast. Also from my experience without airblast pyro because this a poke like character where he doesnt do too much dmg but rather hurts u a bit for his teamates but with airblast their soldier and demos can be a liability for their own team plus u can stop an entire uber which isnt fun but its what pyro does
Edit:
I wanted to add upon ur videos that some of the videos have lacking parts which is a shame as ur editing skills is quite good. I want to hear more in-depth research about topics like this and also the script felt a bit too heavy in the ending rather then a somewhat evenly made script i would recommend to try to summarise the topic then cutting it into segments then spreading them throughout the video to makes the overall video much more easier to understand than condensing most of it in the end
If Pyro didn't have the airblast you would just be asking them to do more w+m1 spam and you do not want that
The editing in this one was especially slick. Great work, Sandwich!
I love the transitions used for each day in this video. Really cool and creative.
Your videos are so comfy to watch, great work... Already looking forward to the (new) bullet spread video!
This was really worth the wait. Love the editing as always (especially the transitions!).
This is a pretty deep topic to TF2's balance, so I personally believe it could be put more in-depth. For me, I think mini-crit damage for reflecting rockets is a bit unnecessary (unless you're already reflecting a critical rocket). Being able to keep the team safe from incoming enemy fire, including Uber pushes, is just too useful on its own. I'd also be willing to bet, that not having/using airblast in other areas such as Uncletopia would get you ridiculed.
Glad I found your videos this year. Hope you continue to enjoy making them, and playing TF2 in general! Great work!
(Also, holidays at work are a bitch)
I wanted this video to be lighter on the balance talk. Just wanted to make something simple regarding airblast.
I will definitely make a video on the balance of airblast but that's far down the line right now.
imo minicrit is fair since soldier has 200 hp and can tank a normal rocket it is kinda bullshit that soldier can just kill you by going "hurrrdurrrgonna kill the pyro" though
oh yeah also idk if this is true but apparently direct hit gets normal splash if reflect
@@HeDronHeDronHedron some dude made video about it, can't remember his channel sadly
Reflected rockets counts as pyros own, so, it doesn't have downsides for some reason. Damage and speed are still buffed, but it never affects splash
I said it in another comments replies here but I think the main reason airblast gets called out so much is that the players it counters just aren't used to it. It's rare for a pyro to successfully airblast consistently, and even at nearly 3000 hours collectively with pyro at my 3rd most played I still struggle due to deceptive hitreg. The thing is that hitting reflects is about as hit or miss as hitting pipes with demo. Sometimes the pyro can get every reflect. The players this counters just aren't used to a pyro successfully countering them fully - they're already fairly generalist with easy to use weapons that provide a lot of pressure to enemies - airblast is one of the few things that CAN and not even ALWAYS threaten that jack of all trades playstyle. As a result they just generally don't expect the playstyle to be countered so directly. The sad thing is that rather than adapt to a competent reflecting pyro these they will just complain about it like literal man children, and then proceed to win not changing playstyle at all anyway because a medic glues himself to their ass and the same pyro doesn't get all his reflects again due to its inconsistency.
Soldier can easily use a shotgun and demo can literally play optimally and spam stickies since they don't even reflect well, but every top soldier is just too addicted to gunboats + original that they feel like the victim any time a player punishes them with counterplay to that kit and complain instead of realizing "THIS IS A CLASS BASED UNLOCK HEAVY SHOOTER WHERE SOME PLAYSTYLES COUNTER OTHERS"
Airblast is one of those things that feels necessary simply for the fact that it gives variety to the playstyle. Just like every Equalizer Soldier, KGB Heavy, ninja Spy, and Demoknight that has come before and after, it turns out that playing a class whose primary means of doing damage requires getting close to your opponent in a First-Person SHOOTER game, makes the experience very difficult. Y'know, on account of the fact that everyone else can just shoot you before you get to them.
But as every Magic: the Gathering player could tell you, it's also not fun to play against someone with a reloadable "No" button, be it for projectiles, players, or entire Ubers. I could completely understand a nerf to how far it can push players, if at all (especially since Jungle Inferno's fix lets you basically Direct Hit rocket-bounce people and then launch them while they're in mid-air), but losing that counter to Ubercharge that isn't just running another Uber (now that Sandman Scout doesn't work on them anymore, a different topic) just completely upsets things in a different direction. It has to keep its projectile deflection so Pyro can simply survive projectile weapons, extinguishing teammates is a good effect, and both clearly help not just the Pyro but also the team. But then there's the Uber-ignoring push effect, the fact it can be fired as often as it can be, and that reflected projectiles (often explosives) mini-crit, where it can turn from intelligent counterplay to W+M2 and really blurs the line between what helps the team, and makes Pyro an unfun opponent.
I'd set airblast to the following:
>reflects projectiles as they are, no boost
>extinguishes teammates for HP
>distance enemy players are moved is halved if they're on the ground
This way, reflecting a single rocket doesn't delete a Medic, Engineer, and Scout, you can still put out teammates, and moving players is a counterplay to airborne opponents/hop-spammers instead of launching someone off a cliff from spawn. It also keeps a little bit of movement deterrence without completely invalidating invincibility that needs nearly a whole minute of charging (or a measly four Ubersaw hits) to fill up.
keep the mini crit boost... much harder to reflect a rocket than it is to just spam at the floor
@Lag Incarnate
that would make reflecting projectiles MUCH less rewarding and down right pointless in some situations ,and your nerf is nothing but a nerf which WILL promote projectile spamming and make pyro a over all worse class.
and with no buff to balance out the nerf you are making an already weak class even weaker , and lowing their skill celling as well.
As a huge fan of the Dragon's Fury it bothers me that it wasn't factored in at all and only mentioned once for it's increased airblast delay and nothing else since it would have been perfect for this as it's the best for it's high damage and pairs really well with both the Detonator and Manmelter.
So long story short: yes. I totally agree. Sure in casual, usually you don’t need it too much, but if you want to expand your skill and kill projectile based classes easier, airblast is essential. I really agree. I don’t get why people want it removed, because since it was added, it’s become such an important and essential part of pyro’s kit.
My only problem with airblast is that blasting at your own feet doesn't send you into the air.
that would be pretty insane ngl, make it only able to push as 70% of Detonator or less, or else Pyro would be rather... busted.
Love your editing style. You're an underrated tftuber
I’ve never heard anyone complain about airblast as a mechanic so this is very strange to see a full length video talking about it. Also I feel a better way to have tested this would be to take it to a dedicated community server with a plug-in that outright disables airblast, technically the enemy pyro having airblast would in some way muddy up results, I’d ask shounic to do a follow up test, I’m sure he’d want to do a partnered experiment
As someone with no pc but the original version of tf2 (through the Xbox360 orange box), Soldier and demoman are *extremely* broken without someone to counter them. Really, what counters a rocket or sticky? Uber and air blast. That’s it.
Agreed. As someone who mainly plays Soldier/Medic, yes, Pyro needs airblast so Pyro players can assist the team (I've had many games where Pyros on my team deflected incoming crockets, sticky spam, you name it). What, people who play Soldier should want airblast removed? Well my friend, Soldiers also have a shotgun. And shotguns are hitscan weapons that can't be airblast deflected. And yes, random bullet spread needs to be removed, so I'm looking forward to seeing that video!
there is a video about random shotgun bullet spread that i agree with, to sum it up: shotgun random bullet spread only really affects you at ranges where shotguns are not as effective
@@ruimario.productions what is the advantage of having that mechanic vs not having it
@@Leo.23232 not really any, but if you are going to complain about a rng mechanic go complain about crits or something because shotgun random bullet spread really doesnt matter that much
@@ruimario.productions if theres no advantage to having it, and there's a very marginal disadvantage to having it, then it shouldn't exist
@@Leo.23232 im going to say pretty much the same thing i said before so just pretend that i did
I got my own two cents in this topic
Airblast was a post launch addition to the game. It was added for a reason and outright removing Airblast just puts us back at square one and leaves us with the problems that airblast solved as Problems again.
Removing airblast is like removing Soldier's Rocket Jumping or Heavy's Sandvich. Sure they Don't need them on a fundamental level but why would you ever remove these? these things make these classes fun and interesting to play. Not to mention adding a layer of depth to their playstyle.
loved the video man, keep up the good work
Great video man! Watching this video alone though made me feel my skill regress
Does Medic actually need healing? Does Scout actually need a high base movement speed? Does Heavy actually need lots of health? Does Spy actually need cloak? Does Engie actually need to build stuff?
Its exactly as a parry in Dark souls.
you need a perfect timing or try to predict to do that.
and the enemy can bait you to fail that parry and you're dead.
the Dragon's fury is perfect for that: you can airblast, but if you fail you cant do anything and just die.
also next time you should try to play on some community servers, so you can test it on players with a medium skill level.
Airblast was added to give Pyro more counterplay options, since they were arguably the weakest class in the first release of TF2 due to their short range and middling damage output. Pyro has since gotten so many weapon options that nowadays Pyro is still viable without Airblast. Even if we ignore the Phlog and the Dragon's Fury, the flare guns give you a lot more opportunities to do damage without needing airblast. However, even with all the options Pyro has now, I think removing Airblast would remove one of the coolest mechanics from all of TF2 and it would kinda ruin Pyro.
Wow, I've watched your other videos and you're seriously one of the best TF2 youtubers I've watched. You seriously deserve more subscribers.
You should've tried the Backburner at one point tbh. Now that would've been some classic gameplay. I remember back in the early days when there were only 2 flamethrowers the Backburner couldn't airblast but its damage was super boosted.
Owls need HUGS
Well then peoplenwould think he could airblast
I can tell this video is extremely well made and much time was put into it. I commend you.
good vid my g. no need for excuses when youre working, gotta do what you gotta.
thanks 4 the ralsei cam i now understand the Live Ralsei Reaction of playing pyro without the pre-nerf degreaser and that that made me switch from pyro main to demo main is a truly correct course of action after it makes your're glasses fall off
I love how the classes that the Pyro can airblast are two of the most mobile and versatile classes in the game, capable of doing highly punishing ambushes on every class they fight against, and are extremely strong on their own, and yet the people who play those classes decide to go fight head on and hold M1 against an experienced Pyro, instead of using their classes to the maximum in other to counter them.
Yes, Pyro needs airblast, it helps your team just as much as it fucks the enemy's, and only brainless Demo/Soldier tryhards complain about it.
How in the world is airblast in anyway controversial? I don't think I've ever heard a single player complain about it.
It's not that airblast itself is controversial
It's whether or not the Pyro playstyle as a whole still needs adjustment
TF2 steam discussions are a nightmare
charming video with the themed transitions
out of all the videos you have made this is one of them for sure
I would give Pyro 25 extra health but increase cooldown between airblasts by a bit, and fix hitbox so it's not a giant cube that can even reflect stuff that's behind you. Great video 👍
It doesn't feel like a giant cube because ping evens it out
the airblast fire rate matches the fire rate of the rocket launcher by design, so soldiers can't just hold m1 against a competent pyro
have u ever played pyro? the hitbox is just fine. Ask urself a question - how much time a rocket needs to travel through that hitbox
The only frustration I have with airblast is how easy it is to completely mess up other players movement, force them into a corner making combos much easier, and if you airblast an airborn enemy they can’t airstrafe at all, the projectile reflection is skill & timing based with legitimate counter play, but airblasting a player is so easy and can mess them up in so many ways
you have to think, though: a soldier would just close the distance to make reflects not humanly possible, and the pyro wouldn't be able to do much if anything without being able to push him back.
Soldiers and demo can also mess up player movements just by shooting their legs, the force of nature can also do that as well and all they have to do is just shoot the player, Sniper can hold done a sightline making it hard for player to move in a certain area. You just need to learn how to play around this stuff, if a pyro keeps putting you in a corner, then make it so that he cant do that by changing your playstyle.
@@craig7415 demo especially with the loose cannon... i've seen ubered players get launched back to their backline on multiple occasions by a demo with good timing.
so the takeaway here probably is moreso knockback sucks to deal with
but like with Damage over Time effects, Pyro can inflict it pretty damn easily, so I say that's why Pyro draws the most ire
i really thought this video was gonna be an "i ran a server with pyro's airblast disabled" situation, but it ended up being a "i'm gonna use the phlog for 2 weeks" situation
i almost choked to death when you changed your profile
already a great video
You want every pyro to exclusively use the phlog? That’s how you get every pyro to exclusively use the phlog.
And maybe the dragons fury occasionally
I think for this experiment to be viable, the person should just unbind their air last and use the other flamethrowers. This means they ACTUALLY are experiencing what would happen if airblast was removed
I think this falls under the same category of the spy’s revolver; you can just use your main weapon, but it offers alternative methods of engagement and has game changing uses when used correctly
Is quite interesting to see other's perspective when it comes to playing the same class. I'm a Pyro main and I don't enjoy combo Pyro as much because in my mind, is just not quite as efficient. I love airblasting as is an irreplaceable tool in a Pyro's kit, and is because of that that I specialize in applying constant afterburn to the opposite team and ambushing. With that being said, I found quite surprising that you mentioned that the termal thruster is a boring item because in my experience is one of the best tools for efficient kills.
Suddenly, the class that was meant to help bad wifi players was given an option that buffs them if the player has good reaction time.
I actually really like airblast for the reason people hate it
Having to have the self control to not instantly press m1 when you see a pyro adds an extra pinch of depth to the game that i enjoy.
i know he was thinking about pressing that alt fire button so badly throughout this video, wanting to release hell upon any players he comes across
great video btw!
Dude, i heard the hotel theme from fossil fighters and you just randomly spiked my nostalgia
Does a short range class need a tool to deal with 2/6 long ranged classes, which both have extremely high DPS and the ability to annalihate an entire team assuming no airblast is possible?
(ignoring scortch shot ofc)
when you factor in that these two classes without pyro's airblast, could easily curb stomp the pyro, with their range advantage. then yes, pyro should still have a range counter.
it's like a spy may seem like a counter to engineer. But the engineer still have means to defend himself against said spy. similiarly would be applied to the pyro
besides countering airblast's pyro as demo and soldier isn't the hardest imo, as long as you can time when they would use it or combo it with their stock secondaries. The shotgun for soldier and the sticky launcher for demo. since the shotguns is hitscan and the sticky bomb is harder to reflect not to mention, requires the demo to detonate.
My only question is, how. How did you come up with this concept? How did you write such a good script? And how did you edit this so fucking well? And how many hours did it take you to make this?
….Ok I know this is a TF2 Video
But I HEAR that Fossil Fighters music in the background and it makes me happy. A MAN OF QUALITY
Hearing that Petz Gameboy sound for a new day flooded me with nostalgia.
The claim that Engineer is overpowered, during the era of Sniper Hell, is a surprising one.
Play class wars and you'll realize that engineer is really freaking powerful
@Max Power okay but outside of a community-only game mode that has plenty more examples of overwhelming destruction (anything vs spy)...where else?
Almost any problem suffered from having engineers hyper-defending last is solved by ubering a Direct Hit Soldier or a Demoman with his monitor turned on.
@@iDarkLinkGraal Yeah, and then the engineer will either pull out his Wrangler or alternatively his Short Circuit and nullify most if not all of the combo's efforts.
Ever played a CTF map where the enemy team manages to take most of the map and secure it with sentries for extended periods of time?
And well, its no secret that Engineer is single handedly the most powerful class in MvM as well. And he's also extremely strong in Vs Saxton Hale, too.
@@M4x_P0w3r thats more an issue with the wranger just being OP
short circuit can be strong but drains your metal extremely quickly
engi is also very map dependant so he can seomtimes seem much stronger
@@M4x_P0w3r who even plays ctf?
Many people, myself included, consider that the class definitions for TF2 classes (offense, defense and support) don't perfectly describe their roles.
I'm a Pyro main and he's most definitely not just an offense class. His greatest offensive strength is found in ambushing opponents and comboing light classes. Spamming is potentially good, but Snipers should take care of that (the scorch shot doesn't always shut Snipers down, it's contextual).
Pyro's greatest strength in general is in defense. His close-range effectiveness is found in preying behind enemies running to his base and either taking them down, pushing them away or pushing them into their Engineer's nest.
This is why the Sun on a Stick sucks and the Homewrecker/Maul don't.
Scout and Pyro barely work together, while Pyro and Engineer do very well.
Reflected projectiles dealing mini-crits is not necessarily broken as Pyro is not as effective at range and it's the "person who decided it was a good idea to launch a reflectable projectile in the direction of a Pyro" 's fault for creating their own projectile of doom.
It's a punishing tool, and while I'm just a guy texting and you, my dear reader, may think this is a lie to defend Pyro and airblast, let me tell you that when I die from a reflected rocket, I don't fault the enemy Pyro, but the Soldier who thought it was a good idea to try the Pyro's airblast and possibly get his team killed.
He can still be spammed out and have his nest pushed, but he makes sure it takes more than a lone Spy sapping a building and a lone Soldier or Demo to pop the sentry, they can only win by working together, and you don't usually see Spies working with the team in casual, most of the time they only try to harrass the Engineer when the Pyro went off chasing an intruder or something.
That fruit jelly at the end made it a VERY "Unusual Sandwich"!
Good video, just kinda wish there had been a bit more effort in giving the other secondaries and melees equal opportunity to show their nuance, like how you did with the ManMelter. Also might've been nice to see you use the other primaries but with M2 unbound or something so you couldn't accidentally airblast.
the only change I'd really consider making to pyros is map a damage ramp up depending on the distance the rocket was airblasted from the soldier, but that's just because I'm salty about not being cautious while turning corners in a game where the Sniper, Heavy, Demoman and other soldiers exist
It's literally the reason pyro isn't the worst character In the game by far
it's flat out insane anyone would consider removing this ability.
it's more central to pyro's class identity than lighting people on fire, and the reason the phlog (a weapon that is a carbon copy of his primary with FREE crits on demand) is not the meta pick.
imagine if soldier had a rocket launcher with the phlog ability, the difference between that rocket launcher and the stock is exactly how valuable airblast is to pyro. also its probably the most fun ability in the game to get gud at. I got a reflect arrow kill the other day and I'm still chuffed about it days later.
I think the analysis lies more in what pyro needs changed to have the lack of airblast be "justified". Pyro is a close-range class with okay movement speed and a fair amount of health, but both of these fall into a "medium class" of sorts, effectively giving pyro a flanking arsenal without giving him the direct ability to flank enemies (more than other classes like sniper or medic, since they have a similarly basic mobility), creating a dissonance. If airblast was to be removed, pyro would suffer in its current state, but if pyro got better flanking inherent to the class itself instead of items, it could potentially justify itself by aligning pyro towards the scout's movement-based gameplay - which is why the detonator's mobility is so valued; pyro is a flanking class that can't flank with its stock items, unlike scout.
If airblast didn’t exist the balance for soldier and demo would be removed
It’s like if scout didn’t exist sniper wouldn’t have a balancer
Or heavy and spy
Everyone balances eachother
Sometimes not really but they essentially can with their abilities
1:40 to be fair, air blast is not a bodily fluid from the other classes
thank you for the video fish man, i enjoyed
The pyro didn’t have airblast initially, and they were terrible. It was added for a reason, and is a core part of the class. Although it could possibly use a small nerf.
As a soldier main on uncletopia I can confirm pyro NEEDS the airblast to have SOMETHING against projectile classes
Hell even with airblast it's hard for a pyro when the soldier just walks forward and waits for the airblast to happen before firing, my man needs his puffs
IS THAT KILL SOUND "OOOOOOOOOH! ANOTHER PIECE DROPPED" FROM JOEL'S SHAREWARE MADNESS? les go
UnusualSandwich ends the year by eating an unusual sandvich 😂
4:25 the ol' beef n' leave
Small TF2 RUclipsrs making the most interesting and well edited videos on the platform for no good reason
I once saw a pyro get a 41 killstreak in a 2fort server I was in the other day. Your killstreak reminded me of that so I thought I’d mention it
10:56 when the medic pops Uber on the fully charged phlogistinator pyro and they don't use the crits, just to die to an ullapool caber 5 kills later with a still full charge 💀
Lazypurple said that airblast is gives you a fighting chance, so i'm going with him
I literally only use thermal thruster on open maps like 2fort and harvest when I get too impatient to walk across the map and instead use 2 thrusts to fly all the way to the enemy backlines
this is a well put togeether vid hope u get moar ssubs yo
to upgrade the test you could make a server, bring a bunch of ppl who has different skill, ceiling, and class and just remove airblast and see what happen
would the soldier and demo dominate the server?
would anyone want to pick pyro ?
wich from deffence and attack side would be the most injured
God, seeing that Pikmin transition brought back memories to when I was just sitting in the basement way past my bedtime, raging and having fun while playing Pikmin 3 on my WiiU.
6:30 It is possible to parkour up and over that fence without the use of the detonator.
If any change would happen, I would suggest a change. Air Blast has 3 aspects, and there's 3 flamethrowers that can be described as "standard."
Give the Stock, Degreaser, and Backburner one of the 3 airblasts, leave the Dragon's Fury alone because it's punishing enough.
Honestly, I should make a video just discussing it, it's an interesting thought and conversation topic for sure.
Expected the shounic “I made a server with a plugin that..”
no way im the guy that got headshot at 22:34!1!!!!1!1!
On a serious note, this was a very interesting idea, and the editing was amazing, and overall, just a great video!
12:29 i was playing pikmin 2 while watching this video and this clip caught me so of guard
i LOVE fighting soldiers who have a brain with airblast
its a game of reactions and prediction
where the soldier has to time his rockets well
and the pyro has to predict when the soldier shoots
elmaxo and his content has been a detriment for tf2 youtube
You could've unblind your mb2 in the control settings so u cannot airblast at all and u will be with stock
Pyro would be far and away the worst class without the airblast. I agree with some other comments, and think the only people really complaining about it are newbies that don't understand how to play around it, or how difficult it can be to make work if you don't know what you're doing.