Why OW2's PvE Fails, But TF2's MvM Succeeds
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- Опубликовано: 18 май 2024
- It's come to this. Talking about OW's shortcomings...again...If only we hadn't been promised promising things for YEARS, only to have the rug pulled out from under us 3 months before the release of OW2's PvE...
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Footage used:
• Overwatch 2 - FULL Rev...
• Overwatch 2's PvE Hero...
• BlizzCon 2019 | Overwa...
• Overwatch 2 | Rio de J...
• Overwatch 2: Creating ...
• [SFM] Genius of a Film...
• OVERWATCH 2: INVASION ...
0:00 - 1:07 - Cold Open
1:08 - 3:00 - Introduction
3:01 - 3:34 - What is PvE?
3:35 - 6:13 - OW2's PvE & TF2 MvM
6:14 - 7:03 - Topic Clarification
7:04 - 7:22 - What makes a PvE Replayable?
7:23 - 13:15 - Variety
13:16 - 19:00 - Rewarding
19:01 - 21:09 - Accessibility
21:10 - 23:23 - Conclusion 
Игры
Mistake Acknowledgement:
- Oil Spill was not the first Mann Up tour, it was Steel Trap.
I also completely forgot Destiny 2 was *technically* F2P. Probably because they have several $30 expansions and I always associated the series with having an entry price tag.
Thank you!😊
potato, tomato. bing bong i still go two cities.
how can you make this video when ow2 pve doesnt even exist
@@user-qb9pf5jo6l two cities is fine, but i don't understand players who play it all the time. i usually try to play different missions each time. my favoutite one is wave 666.
@@dabmasterars my respect to the mighty players of Zombie Wave.. I tip my Gibus to you
Mostly because tf2 players doesnt need to wait 2+years for them to announce we are being lied to about every promise they made
Can't break promises to the players if you never make them. (because you ignore the players)
I rather them stop promising anything and drop all news after an update over being lead on
......save tf2
Also because there is a lot more unique stuff to be done in MvM compared to OW2 PVE
Also the music slaps
This is the first time ever i see that the tf2 community just stops, looks at ow2 and goes "i feel you mann"
tf2 gets mvm and community workshop. ow2 doesnt have either so not really.
@@areaxisthegurkha so it be more like
‘First time?’
@@areaxisthegurkha id say ow2 has the edating custom game modes but i forgot the erp scene of tf2 is just in another league
TF2 is in a pretty good place, they gave us a lot of the things we asked for and more.
The only problem is that it just stopped. No more changes to improve the game, but also no more changes to ruin the game; we are in eternal limbo
@@Drebolaskan yeah i love tf2 but i left tf2 for ow2 because i didnt want to waste another 5 years of my life waiting for the heavy update when i could play a game that gets updated every 9 weeks
Imagine those two people who are still working at TF2 after 16 years those guys must be so dedicated
The janitor and his plant
There's no one working at tf2 unless you consider pot plants people. It's just some random ass dude or two who pop into the office once every once in a while to clean the dust in the room and check if servers are still running.
@@Saulgoodman67677that plant is a spy
In reality they give a guy (probably the genitor) 30 minutes a week to work on tf2.
Alternativt they could be full of dread and wishing for the game to end already.
Valve is unmotivated and takes forever to deliver new content but when they deliver they actually put effort into it.
Relatable except the effort part
When they actually make something themselves. They kinda use the "Community Update" set up as an excise to be lazy about it.
But at least Valve has some respect when it comes to microtransactions. Mainly that the current Creates and Mann Up tickes are enough and they don't need to add a Battle pass or anything.
Update I stand corrected they tecihnally added a battle pass, but contracts unlike the usual battle passes don't use fomo with time limted missions, you by the ticket and you have as long as you want to do them.
They don't really make games out of an obligation to make money. They make them because they are passionate. When they aren't feeling as passionate, they don't cheapen it by pushing out shit anyway. When they DO feel passionate though, the whole fucking world feels it.
- Back 4 Blood proves Valve carried Left 4 Dead
Prett good video.
Man Blizzard being so bad at their job that they bring Skymin back from the dead is truly incredible.
Blizzard is so bad am still waiting 2nd part of Warcraft
We still left on a cliffhanger
at least diablo 4 is good
@@tox9809 No it isn't.
@@Archedgar i like it and that is subjective. you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine.
@@Simbylewhat does that even mean?
The funniest thing is that both modes took about the same amount of time to develop, but MvM was eventually released
Valve was also SMART enough to tease the mode prior to release by having numerous easter eggs hidden in the background of the maps as well as the trailers leading up to mode's release. From Foundry having that guarded room behind BLU spawn if I remember correctly, to seeing the carrier off in the distance on some of the maps like 2fort.
Acutally I think it's far worse than that, the original Overwatch had coop at a certain point but I cannot remember if it was removed or not, but it was when OW 2 came and decided to overtake OW 1 where you cannot play the original anymore now. TF2 may have been neglected over time, but at least MvM got released, fleshed out as needed, and probably hasn't been revisited in years.
And MVM is just better than OW2 in every way
MVM was never good wtf are you on
@@cursedhawkins1305 mvm had entire ARG
9:13 "By allowing creativity you instantly gain replayability" i really really liked this sentence, its so true and today's AAA developers don't realize this imo
It's why Skyrim has lasted for so long if you have access to mods.
This explains why Multiversus got neutered, mods were amazing but they had to install the anticheat...
ngl this is kinda why i love horde shooters like payday 2 that just give you freedom to make some insane builds using perks that just allows for so much replay value that allows tons of fun with just experimenting around making some dumbass build
Don't forget, MvM has charity events every couple of months run by the community, with community made maps, and community made challenge. It's something OW2 can NEVER have because they just don't care about community.
Those community made events rock man.
@@scantyerespecially the April Fools missions
it's as DougDoug said in his video on OW vs TF2 explained with food
TF2 dropped and they're like "see something not on the menu you want? kitchen's open, go ham"
so we get shit like x10 stats, Saxtone Hale (which iirc became official recently), Tall maps, and jump courses
meanwhile Overwatch is just;
"what if we could-" "Here's a durian"
LoL and DOTA2 exist today because Blizzard bungled the bag and gave players access to make their own maps -
since losing billions they are gun shy about giving players the ability to make their own anything - Star Craft allowed you to, but don't expect that in OW.
OW2 main mechanic is the cash shop.
Winning because you're winning.
As a TF2 player who never got into overwatch, I feel bad for the overwatch community. We might never get updates, but at least we aren't promised updates that then get ripped away from us. That sounds like it hurts about ten times more
the heavy update, rip
@@lilwintery6434 Never actually promised
@@lilwintery6434 didnt play tf2 back when heavy vs pyro was around but from what ive seen wasn't pyro like incredibly bugged where flame particles didn't actually hit player at the right distance
@@lirehsa just like comic 7
edit: fr tho they did say the loser of the pyro vs heavy would still get an update and the purpose of the event was to see who would get the update first
@@1twasmeBarry That was just pyro's flamethrower in general prior to getting patched. His flame particles were wonky and were capable of hitting at strange distances, resulting in pyro unintentionally having a much larger range on said flamethrower than he does now.
Not saying it will happen but imagine the universe where Valve used this as a chance to release MVM content just to poke the bear.
Or hell, any competent studio or company releases that promised PvE mode. Of course, without the Overwatch coat of paint.
Valve releases the summer update they promised
Volvo making an update to mvm just to mock OW2 feels like a dream, I know it's not real but I wanna keep dreaming
@@OrionDawn15 Battleborn had story mode and PVE and PVP on launch.
@@drivanradosivic1357 Yeah, I saw that. Wanted to play it for myself but it was just a tad too hard for me at the time. And at the time, the game was practically dead too. A damn shame, I bet it was a blast.
I think something Valve always does amazingly is promise nothing and you’ll always over-deliver. The only time I feel like they put something in a commercial or cinematic is when they’ve already developed it or it’s something that’s easy to commit to. Anytime they scrap or change something they completely swing in the opposite direction so even though we never got the hyper realistic gritty tf2 we were initially promised the goofy game we got is still extremely influential and a great game.
Underrated comment. Valve def keeps its cards close to its vest and when it drops something it’s usually already very polished. They know what’s going to work before they publicly recognize it. When HL:Alex was announced it was practically right around the time the game was going to go retail. Wild.
If you want gritty play tfc
Damn. The ending actually made me a mixture of sad and nostalgic. Haven’t played TF2 seriously in a while, but every single point you made was perfect. Great video
Seems like you’ll have to start playing it soon then mate
PLEASE PLAY IT. YOU WON'T REGRET IT!!!
just watch out for the aimbots
@@bungus5774 I have returned to the game. Been playing almost everyday now!
@@pizzamaster-su3bh they are indeed a pain. :(
Man, Blizzard just keeps killing OW2, every other week, we hear about their latest blunder or cheap marketing tactic that blew up in the exec's faces.
Where as valve have only given MvM three updates in total, including it's introduction, and it's still considered better by most sane people.
I think that's why I personally stay as far away from overwatch as I can. I understand why people don't like painting Valve as a saint, but they're atleast they know when to just leave a game alone. It is night and day how much better they are then most videogame companies. Lets just hope that hardware division is profitable enough they don't decide to fuck around with steam.
@@plantain.1739 Doesn't Valve also WELCOME user generated content? Unlike Hacktivision who abhor it to the point of fucking over people that made quality of life mods for THEIR broken games?
LGBT people will keep it alive because they swallow all lazy crap they drop happily
@@brendanboomhour7606 You can straight-up sell total conversion/new campaign mods of their games on Steam as separate games. So... ye. (also they include user-created content in TF2 as well as a way to support specifically the original community developers who made it)
@@brendanboomhour7606 I mean, 2/3 of the Orange box trilogy was made by former mod teams, and Dota. Plus, Steam is debatably *too* accepting of user generated content.
Yes, they are lazy, but considering how big steam is, I prefer they stay lazy instead of fucking anything up. Though, they should probably assign people to TF2. Like, just give them better pay or something, idk.
Sad thing is is that we have seen what the OW2 PvE would have been like through Deep Rock Galactic, it literally contains everything that was promised for the original PvE and it is amazing. it shows that if they had put more focus onto it then we could have gotten that original vision.
Funni dorfs> Blizzard
@@670HP-Package-NOWi rock and stone to that
WE'RE RICH
WE'RE RICH
It all leads back to rock and stone…
Good devs and no obnoxious greed make Deep Rock even more special. If you want to put money in it, you always get cool shit for it
I think the main issue that people forgot when it came to OW2 was that it was supposed to be a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAME. It was not supposed to override the $60 OW1 with a free to play, pay-to-win, gutted out bastardization of what the original was.
This is unfortunately why I will never return. It just makes no sense to get treated worse than ever in the game I bought like 8 years ago.
I thought PvE meant Player vs enemy or Player vs evil but hearing that it's called player vs environment makes much more sense
Skymin's RUclips career is still more alive than Overwatch 2.
That's how you know you fucked up.
@@SkyminSlash I mean this video kinda popped off maybe you ain't dead yet
💀💀💀💀💀
@@SkyminSlash 💀💀💀💀
Snowball Mei is a symbol of everything we wanted, everything lost and a stark reminder of the absolute pittance that was gained. So long my precious rolly angel, you were too good for this industry.
F -- from a Mei main
Sad rolly hours
Funny thing is that rolly Mei already exists in Heroes of the Storm.
holy shang chi
I remember being really hyped for OW2 when it was first announced because I played the first game obsessively. I eventually got frustrated with it and stopped following the news until OW2 released, and I decided to download it blindly. My sheer astonishment when I saw that this was the exact same game with a couple more maps and an obnoxious way to access cosmetics... they didn't only not deliver on the game they promised, they also completely ruined OW1. I was a completionist who had almost every cosmetic for every character from just playing, never bought lootboxes. Now it's impossible. And now they demand more money for PVE, while the game is free, except if you paid 60 bucks for it at release. And that's without even mentioning all the Blizzard scandals. Just... ugh. They turned the most popular game in the world for a while into one of the worst ones.
And yet with all this said, people still play it. Isn't that wonderful? :)
Overwatch PVE: Heroes fighting evil robots to save the world from doom
TF2 PVE: Ragtag bunch of mercenaries beating up robots for the money they drop and because some half naked guy on a TV told them to
Yeah, TF2 sounds way more interesting due to how hilarious it is, no wonder why MVM is better!
the robots drop (burnt) money because it's their fuel
tiny little detail to add about MVM's accessibility: MVM tickets are not considered "spent" by the game untill you have fully completed a MANN UP mission succsessfully
Even better - you can replay same mission repeatedly, as long as it doesn't end tour and you spent ticket on it before.
Thank God valve is not a greedy company because of their steam money
@@tonivoul1971 Nah, they're greedy. They just do it at a different point of contact and at least do it at a point of contact that isn't required for you to interact with in theory, or at least the paywall was minimal (that is, buying the Cloak and Dagger to gain the P2P version of TF2 and not the F2P version).
@@SoupCanMafiawdym by buying the cloak and dagger, exactly? Sorry if I'm confused or anything, but you were saying you got the premium version of the game by buying that specific item or?
@@Void-by4yn no just any. i'm guessing they prefer the cloak and dagger :^
I truly hope there is a class action suit against blizzard for the constant lies and failures to deliver on top of their aggressive monetization and borderline scams in their games
unless the laws regarding this sort of problem change, that won't happen, sadly
like that would do anything.
The main issue is the free to play model typically prevents law suits like that cause you can't really claim damages from a "free to play" game and most judges would rule, paying for the cosmetics to be not necessary.
@@dannybeane2069 Not to mention the Terms Of Service of pretty much every game typically have a line that goes like "the Game is provided on an 'as is' and 'as available' basis", completely shutting down any possible claim. And you have to accept them to play.
It's nearly impossible to sue a corporation of any kind unless you have serious capital backing you. They can just throw counterclaims in return and bog down your lawyers until you bankrupt yourself. And the laws surrounding these issues will NEVER be fixed, because those same corporations line the pockets of whoever they have to, to keep it that way.
on the topic of cutscenes, this is one of the few times where Halo infnite actually had an amzing approach to them (even if they have been cancelled, big sad). The multiplayer story cutscenes featured your own custom spartan, OC's are a big thing in the halo community and it was honestly incredibly cool see my own character interacting and playing part in the larger story with the other characters. Furthermore they made 2 scenes per event, last one unlocking when you complete the event.
They basically countered youtube by giving you personal investment, and putting a buffer on the upload time making it just as fast to play the game yourself than just waiting for an upload. Still a big shame they were cancelled though :(
They went with the "if your custom character appears in a cutscene" meme and made it a feature.
Holy shit Skymin is finally getting the views she deserves again, it's about damn time!
@@Simbyle Are you okay? What the hell are you talking about?
@@BustyCatbotit's chronically online behavior sadly, that person is sick so I recommend ignoring them
@@baldgagits2107 I can't even comprehend what the hell was going through that person's head, I'm legitimately concerned for their mental health.
@@BustyCatbot They have Main Character syndrome, the only thing that matters is what they personally do, so if they stop watching a RUclips channel it stops existing, like how a toddler without object permanence sees the world
@@BustyCatbotseems like a quote referencing something
There is one extra thing I want to highlight from MVM's Mann Up and its an important detail.
You know how you need a ticket to play the mode?
The ticket doesn't get used until THE MISSION is completed.
Did your server of players decide "F-ck this im out?" Well good news your ticket is still there. Losing the match or squad rage quitting doesn't steal money from your wallet. It just cost maybe an hour of your time wasted trying to keep your team ali- WHY DID YOU JUMP INTO THE HORDES?
-cough- sorry... had a... moment... but yes the Tour of Duty ticket you bought doesn't vanish unless the mission is completed.
Wait what. The only reason I haven't used my tickets is because I'm afraid that I'd have to leave partway through.
@@conservativedemocracyenjoyer
Yup, the tickets you buy aren't consumed until you complete the mission. If you fail, or leave during it, then you'll get to keep the ticket.
@@conservativedemocracyenjoyer there used to be this huge Toxicity problem where Trader players who were SUPER GOOD at the game would troll newer players by playing with them to the last wave and then quit when the wave began. Dropping players into a solo battle against waves made to fight full teams.
Or also booting the new player from the match because they could handle things themselves
While this does still happen, now atleast the new player isn't down a dollar each run.
My original script had a mention of the fact your ticket only gets used on any missions you've not completed in that tour loop, so you could replay any missions in Mann Up that you've got marked off indefinitely, so long as you had a ticket to offer.
I'm not sure why it didn't make it into the video...
@@SkyminSlash You mentioned your older past scripts were alot more negative towards Overwatch when compared to TF2.
Also TO BE FAIR, You were judging MVM based on when it came out, and at the time tickets got used when the mode began. The change to "Used at Completion." Happened later
Why OW2 PVE fails: it doesn't exists
Why TF2 MVM suceeds: different gameplay style from the casual mode, exiting boss battles, solidifies the need of team work, the trailer just hits hard even if not a single word is spoken, you can play the MVM theme on the character selection screen (its true)
Another huge plus for MVM, gambling. By spending time and money to get a chance to get killstreak weapons or if you are lucky, an Australium and if Lady Luck is smiling on you, you are blessed by the ownership of the golden frying Pan.
Not to mention the custom community campaigns adding a bunch of crazy new rules, robots, and mechanics to regular MVM.
But let's not forget that mvm has toxic players that will make sure you get kicked on the last wave or kick you for using the gas passer.
It has one word
"YEEEAAAAAAAAHH"
@@High-Pie_Chop oh yeah, we don’t talk about them. If you have seen the mvm cheating videos by Wheezy, cheaters are like a parasite that ruins the gamemode, but luckily they are so little in number
It sounds like overwatch's main issue is the quantity of characters. If there were 9 characters like tf2 then giving them all skill trees would have been WAAAAY easier.
I point at another blizzard game called Heroes of the Storm.
It has way more characters with 2 ultimates each and talent trees as you level.
They could've just scaled down the skill trees. Maybe even have some shared skills. If you have 30+ characters, giving each of them 40 unique skills is a lot of work. But if each gets 10, you instantly reduce the time needed.
@HappyBeezerStudios Yeah I mean heck most of the upgrades in tf2's MvM aren't unique. Stuff like firing speed, reload speed, projectile speed etc are all basic upgrades basically everyone can use. There are SOME unique ones. For example medic and engineer given they're different roles and damage output get unique healing based upgrades and building upgrades respectively. Some get unique upgrades like snipers explosive headshot, bit yes a lot of them are the same
0:50 what's even more taunting is the fact in the first story mission he actually does that move with his shield
The fact they knew the pve was getting scaled down before OW2 even released and just didn't tell anyone is what really makes it sting.
Scaled down implies that what we got/will get is different then what we previously had. Considering we had this already in OW1 before they removed our access...
@@dpray96 it's a scale down from what they promised. no need to be a smart-ass
That must count as false advertising lmao.
@@JetFuelSE you would think. Not like they will suffer any legal recorse for it.
idk why people are suprised that they would do something like this. They obviously wanted to wait till the game actually got popular before they kick the hornets nest, rather than letting us know that this game would be a dissapointment before we wasted time/money (for skins that are overprised) on it. This is activision blizzard after all.
I honestly can't help, but feel extra sorry for OW2 players.
Just like them, I was invested in PvE. The only true reason why I wanted to stick around at all, after Blizz pulled the plug on OW1.
Now, what's the point? It's just another ruined by greed money sucker, and that's just sad.
And unlike TF2, where community keeps it alive, Blizzard ain't giving the fans such freedom. Which doesn't help the game at all. If anything, further sealing the poor fate of what could've been a good game.
Only way is to ditch that game into dust. Maybe they'll try to pick up the shambles and actually do something with it. If not, then at least it'll finally be put to rest. Well, that'd be true if there weren't actual buffoons still supporting that game n Blizzard
I don't feel bad for ow2 players, they knew exactly what kinda company and what kinda game they were dealing with
@@sandraswan9008 that is such an inflammatory statement tf. how is the playerbase supposed to know the shady actions inside a company when said company is hardly transparent about their intentions? people are allowed to enjoy a game jeez
@@sandraswan9008 Tbf, when the first OW came out Blizzard still had lots of good rep as the "WoW creators" and such.
It's been 11 years since MVM and it's still the best PVE gamemode I've ever played in a first person shooter. Oh well
I have 2000 hours on tf2 and most of them were spent on Bootcamp
Let's just not forget that people were saying Overwatch was going to be the TF2 killer.
The mood the first minute of this video was actually me... Not paying 15 dollars for about 1 Hour of story gameplay. When I can actually pay 15 dollars for a different game with more variety and replayability. My god they dropped the ball so fricken hard.
And here I thought about paying $3.00 to $4.00 to get a small chance to get a golden/Australinum weapon was somewhat ridiculous
@@starmaker75 I mean, if you are like, super lucky, and you get something like a rare australium or golden pan, then you can sell that shit for several times its original price, that alone created a huge trade community in TF2, and that alone made the mode even more prominent if possible
here are a couple titles you might recognize, which you could buy for $15:
undertale
stardew valley
phasmophobia
don't starve together
terraria
iracing
Gmod
L4D (2)
portal (2)
...
Or you could buy 3 story missions in OW2
@@potatoes5829 left out deep rock galactic, one of the best pve games out there
@@potatoes5829 Those are all probally about a several months worth of fun (a far greater amount of fun for gmod, L4D, terraria considering how much content people have made for those and they're multiplayer) and far more valuable that 3 story mission that you'll finish in an hour, and replay once or twice
Blizzard: We're squeezing as much money out of the customers, cut the developer budget.
Valve: Send in the Seal.
This video has been in my feed since it came out and I’m kinda glad I watched it now.
I’ve gotten into mvm now and finally experienced the tf2 community firsthand during this time and I can say for sure this video really hits the spot
For reasons like This, Is why Tf2 is (if you forgive me to say it):
*A timeless Masterpiece*
MVM was never good wtf are you on
@@dragon_ball_sucks_video MVM is Optional, The 12v12, Highlanders, 6v6 and LITERALLY EVERY OTHER GAMEMODE (created by Valve or the Comunitty) is 10 times Better than Overwatch.
¿And you know why?: because they're are FUN
@@aquilesgarciaperez5918 ah yes, free labor again
@@dragon_ball_sucks_video dude admit it, Overwatch is not Fun anymore (not even the first one after playing it by 2 years), at least Valve and the tf community has a Better Social Image than Blizzard.
@@aquilesgarciaperez5918 Dude admit it, you're biased, and you enjoy being dicked by Valve for years now + tf2 is overrated
It's pretty wild to me how MvM has been neglected since 2 cities and it STILL has more content than the product of a big budget studio, even putting aside how much more extensive community server MvM gets, the base game still has more than OW2 is offering,
MVM was never good wtf are you on
@@dragon_ball_sucks_video _That_ would be your _mother._
@@Mordecai02 you are getting pegged by my mother?
@@dragon_ball_sucks_video I think Mordecai is saying your mother is never good in bed
@@dragon_ball_sucks_videoYour opinion isn't that important buddy, just because you don't like it, doesn't make it a bad gamemode.
And no, replying with "your opinion is also not important" doesn't make you any original.
Skymin i just wanna say you're really one of the best youtubers when it comes to explaining why somethin is flawed/good. I know ur not posting this type of video much but i love that.
The absurdity of industrial robots built in the 60’s-70’s, have money as their power source, is much more appealing to me then standard technological hacked robots in the distant future
I think a big reason why MvM was as successful as it was is because Valve iterated on feedback. MvM when it first came out was still pretty good, but wasn't nearly as good as it was today. The Mecha Engie update adding in bot variety and new maps, as well as the 2-cities update basically giving medic an entirely new mechanic and expanded upon the existing content perfectly, as well as adding new maps and killstreak kits. MvM also wasn't teased as a reason to make a new game. Valve didn't say "hey guys, we need to make a brand new game and stop giving you TF2 content entirely because we want to make a PvE mode!" No, Valve released that as a FREE update to the game then continued to iterate upon it.
OW2 was teased as the reason for needing a new game. Whatever, the engine they used for OW1 was probably bloated af and they didn't want to bloat it, plus they fixed up the big issues with the PvP side of the game alongside that which is nice. Where they failed wasn't that they got to ambitious over it, it was that they refused to even put in the same amount of effort that made MvM so successful in the first place. They scrapped everything about it that even made it interesting and unique in favor of being able to go "hey, we technically still delivered our promise, but with MORE micro-transactions" as well as setting a precedent that you'll have to PAY for future PvE content in the game. Another $15 every season just to get the new PvE content for something so bare bones.
Honestly though I feel like if they released MVM as a new TF game it could be better because if I remember correctly TF2 has insane spaghetti code
@@destroyer4929 Yeah, TF2's source code is a lot of spaghetti. But Valve wouldn't say the reason for a new game is just because they want to add better PvE content, then force you to pay for new content every few months.
If anything, TF2 would get a remake to update it to source 2, and thats about it, otherwise valve probably wouldn't spend resources on making a new game.
Another point that I thought of when watching this video: if the lore is locked behind a paid service, will it ever have a satisfying ending, like a real story? Would they have multiple campaigns to never stop making missions? Or would the main campaign just be really long and (probably) boring until it ends to bring back people?...
It won't. Just look at Destiny 2 -- it's got this story that just goes on and on and on and on. Every few months they come out with a new season, and every few months its some new dialogue or story or whatever. Since the devs are being paid to continue a story, they have a financial reason to not end the story.
Stories are good when they *end.* It's a paradox of what they want, and what everyone else wants.
I’m here from post overwatch pve launch, and it’s just a bunch of shoot robot, grab thing, and then wait until you need to grab another thing
I’m over a week late, but thanks for using my Momocon pic of your Cabana Ana cosplay! I felt super giddy seeing it again after so long.
I really need to put it back together! The gun has broken in multiple places and I never got around to replacing the top so it actually matched the pants.
1:18 In case anyone's curious, here's that list:
- F2P model that requires you to spend a lot of time or spend money for new heroes in a game that’s about counter switching
- Downgraded user interface/experience
- Features taken out from OW1 that rally had no reason to be
- Inconsistent matchmaking throughout its current life
- Rank rework that made little sense and messed up the system as well as players perception of rank > skill
- Removal of loot boxes (which were easily earnable for free) replaced with an overpriced shop
- The time to grind the currency for a legendary skin takes entirely too long, almost like they want you to buy their stupid premium currency
- Sense of progression erased. Progression is now tied to a seasonal battle pass that’s wiped at the end instead of a player level that would reward you with a loot box
- Half assed balancing and reworks at the beginning of OW2’s life resulted in several heroes feeling out of place or worthless
- New heroes are over-kitted, as their new philosophy is supposedly to make heroes more generalist and somewhat interchangeable as opposed to specialists for certain situations. Best seen with Ramattra being a master of none and lifeweaver having way too much in his kit
- Kiriko immediately contradicts this philosophy due to the absurd utility of Suzu Cleanse making her a must pick in many situations. Ana constantly nading your team? Kiriko. Mei ccing your team? Kiriko. Any hero that has applicable status effects or kill combos? Suzu. Counter an entire ultimate? Suzu.
- Push fucking sucks ass to play. It’s super snowbally and absolute agony for immobile heroes (Ana, Zen, Mei, etc.). The matchmaking makes this mode worse than it should be with uneven team skill levels.
- The Blizzard polish is gone. This game has had an insane number of bugs, both visually, minor, and game breaking, that shouldn’t occur from a triple A developer whose reputation used to be “polish”.
- Game altering bugs can be unresolved for months, but as soon as there’s an issue related to the shop and money, it’s fixed as fast as possible
- There’s no simulator for Baptiste to sell me life insurance
- I’m serious, Bap could sell me life insurance all day and I’d be content with OW2
- They gave Mercy a Karen haircut
- They don’t arbitrarily nerf Genji every patch
- We still don’t have speedo skin Roadhog
- Not enough gay
- Too much gay
- We still haven’t seen Kiriko on her bike
- I actually hate Kiriko
- Like, burning passion hate everything about Kiriko from a visual design and character standpoint
- Again, why isn’t Baptiste selling me life insurance?!
Hey, you beat me to it. Thanks man, you're doing Saxton's work.
You dont spend shit to unlock characters. Interface is the same. Ranked is better. G
"Grinding" is better then playing 1k for an ugly particle effect. Slander about new heros. Tf2 has no Bugs at all, and is perfectly bot free. Tf2 isnt gay at all. Genji isn't op, just Play Moira, Winston, Zaria, or just dont shoot him when he's reflecting. And you're not funny + MVM was never good wtf are you on
Speedo roadhog.
Aight working on that fan art.
Gonna put skymin there as well.
Gonna be honest no loot boxes is better
@@Rookie417 wtf
It's more of a Valve vs Blizzard issue
Valve basically lets employees work where they want, and as long as it's making some money they're good
Blizzard is more of a "traditional" business, you work where you're TOLD, and maximizing the profit is the main goal
The issue for Blizzard is that they're willing to put people on projects who don't love their game, they'll cut out content to save money, and they'll lock things behind paywalls to maximize the cash flow
Valve's issue is that flashy new games and projects are more likely to get a larger staff group working on it, while old games like TF2 are left with a skeleton crew because they're old
Both have problems but between the two, TF2 was made with love and for enjoyment which is why it is still standing today.... OW was designed as a way to separate they player from their money and will wither and die when Blizz makes a new game to push
Valve has that indie spirit
The first and only MVM tour I did when it originally came out gave me a Bot killer Minigun, I was so damn hyped I got something for one of my favorite characters I never bought another MVM ticket again. And now I get to still enjoy my Bot killer gun with the summer update, it feels great!
Haven't seen you in awhile good to know your still here nice vid 👌
It's nice to know that there's someone else who's aware that there's more to competition than just aiming.
It helps tho
Movement, communication, positioning and situational awareness are more important but aiming really does help.
Unfortunately the current iteration of Overwatch enforces and rewards exactly that: solo performance and mechanical skill over teamwork (which used to be necessary in 1). OW2 puts far greater emphasis on personal performance with 1 tank, lack of barriers and healers fending for themselves
This is one thing Skymin got wrong: we're not taught to learn more than aiming in OW2, *we're forced to learn aiming regardless of role*
Blizzard Activision making moves so bad it brought Skymin back.
Keep doing it Blizzard Activision.
The Activision half isn’t much better
I love that jose.gonzalez.2007 is still a meme in the tf2ber community all these years later
Did you ever consider that jose.gonzalez.2007 is incapable of remembering a pre-TF2 world? We merely adopted the sickness, but he was born in it. Molded by it.
It's been almost a year since this "sequel" has been out and we still don't have pve
I remember when OW was touted as the TF2 killer. Here I am watching this with a giant smile on my face @ how the tables have turned 😂
Tbh as a tf2 + OW fan it was definitely possible. Blizzard just mismanaged the heck out of it. The game was on track to be huge and then they made horrible owl decisions and balancing decisions that pushed away so many people to make OWL more exciting to watch.
@@mjrobo1795 Who would have thought that ignoring your game would actually save it from destructing itself. Both funny and sad for TF2
@@Laza721 it was possible that overwatch would have killed tf2.
All they needed to do was make overwatch 2 keeping everything they promised IN THE GAME. That would have 100% killed tf2. But due to how bad blizzard is at keeping games alive, well they lied to their community and made many overwatch fan move to tf2.
When was OW ever considered a TF2 killer? Jeff said it himself that OW will never kill TF2 back in 2016.
Given the money people have pumped into their tf2 accounts, I doubt tf2 would ever die
I'm glad RUclips recommended this video to me, it's been nice to see you again, considering you were one of the main people who got me into TF2.
Great to see you again Skymin :D
Ninjala has a story mode that's locked behind a paywall
Bruh imagine buying a game, and then basically having to buy it *again* to experience the main selling point.
ea
@@1twasmeBarry As far as I know, EA hasn't tried that... yet.
@@OrionDawn15 nah i remember og battlefront from 2016 (i was 10) and they made all these op characters just dlc and locked so i guess pay to win. on second thought you are right I can't remember ea locking the primary function behind a pay wall
I honestly hope that we get more MvM stuff at some point. I think I almost fell off my chair when I saw that they were going to end up charging for PvE
What do you mean end up charging for pve?
@@tonivoul1971 charging as in money required to use
@@sovietunion7643 thanks
Don't MvM tours cost money to get into
@@diggyrobinson5859 it's like 1$ to buy this doesn't not compare to the cost overwatch will make you pay
The difference is, TF2 is actually fun and not some bare bones cashgrab that is more cash shop then game
TF2 at its core, just has alot more passion and heart put into it. And the dedication of the playerbase shows it in return
Bro how are crates and keys not cash grabs
@@radishinglad998 You aren't obligated to buy crates and keys. Most of the weapons are given for free by playing the game. Crates are mainly just for cosmetic items, you can also get free crates overtime. Majority of crates and keys are rather cheap plus the cosmetics you can get are actually well made. Don't forget you can scrap items that the game gives you to make different items making it so you don't actually have to buy crates and keys at all.
@@radishinglad998 and to be fair, with a lot of grinding and patience you can turn all of the weapons found in drops into your first ever hat for 1 ref. atleast back in the day idk about now...
Hearing pve decompressed as "player versus environment" rather than "player versus enemy" gave me whiplash.
You didn't know what it was before? Player versus Enemy can have a pretty broad meaning, it can apply to both players and AI. So it wouldn't make sense to make it mean that.
im in the same boat, always thoght it was enemy, tbh I think engine as in game engine would make more sense cos enemey could mean human players and environment sounds like its a survival game
...Isn't PVE short for Player vs. Entity and not Enemy or Environment?
@@hexagonrz7813 Nope, you can search it up. "Player vs. Environment" is what it is.
@@OrionDawn15 spreading misinformation based
Not sure it it quite fits the model, but Salmon Run, the PvE mode from Splatoon 3, seems to meet most of the points you were making, it’s a team of four matchmaking mode in which you fight off hordes of salmonids and taking out bosses in order to collect eggs you bring to the basket at spawn before time runs out to clear the wave. There are three waves per shift (with an extra boss fight wave occasionally happening) which can each have a different tide level and gimmick. And your weapons are randomized from a pool for your team. It’s got a lot of variety, it’s the best way to make money in the game, and it’s accessible as soon as you reach lv 4 (which you get after about an hour of play in the main game mode, alongside all other shops). I know it’s not F2P, but I think it qualifies as a good PvE mode based on the criteria presented here
Splatoon is definitely not F2P though, you need Nintendo Online to even play its online game modes. Not knocking on it, I love Salmon Run more than the pvp mode now.
Salmon Run is goated
I hecking love Salmon Run
I haven’t watched a skymin video in like 4 years
LOVE THIS! JUST SUBSCRIBED!
Imagine being so mad over discontinued promises to the point that you made your script about a detailed rant about it speaks so much.
Keep up the good work bud, hope you dont get a wave full of Überbots
11:27 Soldier's ability to carry around his healing station was shown off in the trailer I think. I remember some content creators calling it out specifically thinking that the april fools was going to be a preview of the upcoming pve content. I guess it was more "let's recycle what we have"
18:55 Most card games have their story mode locked behind either a paywall (usually $15-$20) or an in-game currency grind-wall. (Usually takes 1.5-3 weeks to grind out, low end is TESL, high end is HS) These modes usually provide unique cards as reward, alongside the story missions. Hearthstone's are sort of unique, because they gave up on the story missions at some point and the older story missions can only be purchased with the premium cash currency now. The monetization is very similar to how hearthstone's. (3 act story mission for $15)
The card games I play are rogue-lite, soooo I definitely have no knowledge of PvP card games like Hearthstone and Magic.
Also him having biotic field attached to him was in the April Fool's patch.
Gwents story mode fucking slaps.
I Played it in Polish and i fucking loved characters and the story.
@@SkyminSlash Magic doesn't have a story mode. They sell physical books or post the story online for free (they flip flop between the two every 5 years or so). Digital card games (Hearthstone, Elder Scrolls: Legends, Eternal Card Game, etc., etc.) have a story mode in game that usually sells unique cards and solo pve content.
Meanwhile Legends of Runeterra puts Path of Champions in for free. So free that you physically cannot pay for it, in fact.
Imagine having worse monetisation than RIOT effing GAMES.
OW 2 is the definition of "If OW was owned by EA" into reality
They are almost there, they're owned by Activision.
1:10 oooh, celeste music. IIRC thats the piece from the haunted hotel, right?
I love how 8 years later TF2 is stll helping to give you content! It has outlived so many EA and Ubisoft titles!
OW2 co-op being canceled bummed me out so much, it genuinely got me hyped to play some casual, campaign-style overwatch 2 with some friends.
But we instead got the worst rug pull I've ever seen for a video game.
Another pemperton sighting
Aye same here but without the friends part...
I was looking forward to hammering down on some robots, or doing something like what Genji did in the trailer...
@@justatankwithinternetacces8338he’s every where
Afaik the coop isn't cancelled? In fact, you can only play the pve with other players?
At this point, we might as well go play DRG
I do wish we would get an MVM update. Much of the new content is from the workshop, so i don't see the harm in map makers uploading custom MVM maps/campaigns to the workshop and maybe us getting a couple of new maps and another tour per year. Perhaps a few new Australium weapons could become available, or MVM exclusive war paints/unusualifiers
I always thought PVE was player vs enemy
They should have taken only 5 or 6 heroes, given them fully fleshed out kits and made levels arund. Then added more heroes over time and tweaked things if needed. Doing it for 30+ heroes feels like massive scope creep.
also should note that mvm botkillers were a big reason to play, alongside it being really cheap to play, you were guranteed 1 botkiller that could come in a variety of variants, even today blood, diamond, silver, gold, basically any botkiller other than rust hold up really well and still look beautiful
Only issue is actually getting into tours that give botkillers because everybody plays two cities just to get horrible killstreak kits hoping for a professional fabricator, just for it to be rigged to give you professionals for bad melee weapons 90% of the time.
@@RobbertRobbert12345 Collectors Professional Killstreak Unusual Warp Paint Haunted Australium Minigun!
(Price: *~14,000,000 keys* )
Oh hey Skymin, first time I've seen one of your vids since that channel update 7 months ago, great video btw!
Wow skymin its been a long time since I've seen ya upload. Nice to see ya
I think what's worse is that, IT EAS CANCELLED WAY EARLIED THAN WAS TOLD... and I got that feeling that Diablo Immortal's Abhorrent Microtransaction System succeeding somehow influenced the higher ups of **Activision-Blizzard** to scrap the PVE for something that is a shell of its former self, one of many reasons why it is what is for OW 0.5
Once again, I ask, is it Overwatch 2, or 1.2?
@@Kalmaro4152 Overwatch 2, but like, because they managed to CUT content, the fans call it that
Considering they removed access to the previous version, and removed (At launch and even then they still drag/dragged their feet) earning rewards through gameplay without additional payment required...
i mean... thats how cancellations tend to work.
I think leaving the community made work for tf2 entirely is actually unfair. I totally get setting it aside because we want to focus on the on release specefic content. but even just on release tf2 having the ABILITY for community to develop and engage with the game in that way simply doesnt exist in Overwatch. technically overwatch has a mode that lets you change a couple numbers but the actuall creation of new models maps modes content doesnt exist at all not to mention overwatch traps you into using there built in restrictive system and to my knowledge you cant combine it with the pve stuff anyways. my point is that so much of the games industry has moved away from giving communities any level of control over the games they engage with and consume instead only being locked in to the forcefed (and payed for) systems that the industry delivers to the players, they literally dont allow for community tools because they DONT WANT TO COMPETE. This should be on the face of it ridiculous and so tf2 even having that OPTION even before anything gets made is a HUUUGE point in tf2s favor and so removing it entirely from the discussion is foing tf2 a disservice (not that it needs it lol).
You seem to understand why I left it out in the first place, so I don't have to reiterate that.
I did initially have a small portion of the video where I mentioned the community servers, but it was intertwined with a misunderstanding on a portion of information, so I ended up just cutting it entirely, because it was only like 2 sentences. You can see where I cut it because there's an abrupt mention about OW2's custom games in regards to previous seasonal PvE.
I think we can have this discussion if or when you can play the PvE parts in custom games, so you can alter them in the Workshop, then we could compare community made MvM vs Overwatch Workshop PvE.
3:35 that is one sus reload
If I remember correctly (I don't know if it's still the same now) you could use more or less 9-12 refined (from the scrap you made by recycling your weapons) to buy the ticket for MvM
MvM ticket prices are at 38 ref rn. The value of refined metal crashed a while ago.
i just got back to playing tf2 and i was visiting the tf2 youtubers i used to watch to see if they are still doing content. i almost tought u dissapeared after i saw that the last video was posted 5 months ago. thank god ur still here
You pretty much put in words my feelings about Overwatch 2 PvE... Something I can't do because I'm so frustrated with the news. Feels bad.
It saddens me even more knowing this PvE business model is probably going to work since people are stupid and just buy anything thrown at their face if it has "SKINS" written on the front.
That feeling when a video is better than a topic discussed in the video itself
Hi. Than´k you for the video. This helps me understand why many of my friends and family are still playing L4D/tf2 and other pve games. Great explanations.
I suspect that all of this is due to Activision/Blizzard having poor retention of their dev staff and the recent mandated "return to office" making more leave the company which resulted pausbile in the downscaling/cancellation of OW2 pve.
One big part is that the gameplay is good. That makes people stick with a game. CS is also still played, despite CS:GO having pretty much exactly the same gameplay as CS 1.6 back then 20+ years ago.
And one big thing with coop and PvE is that you can play with your friends without having to deal with some random pro level player on the other team.
At 13:17 if anyone wants to know how to fix this issue, you just have to use the console command hud_reloadscheme (I use the command as i enter the game to make sure it works)
An angel dropped from the heavens, thank you.
TF2: You pay us to play PVE, but you could make a profit back. You need lots of tickets as well, yeah, but you can choose to play the free one if you'd like. Oh, and it's customizable, not to mention that you can also -*the list goes on and on*
OW2: We take the thing we promised you for free, turn it down, take it back up, and make you pay for it again! You can't play it on solo as well! Ha ha, more skins! More BP! We fired more good members of the game dev as well! Cause screw you! We are Blizzard! We can't make a skill tree cause it's too hard, yet we made something like Heroes of the Storms! Diablo!
Edit: Yes, the long run isn't gonna be profitable unless you got a really good item like the comments told me. RNG reward system was mentioned 8n the video. Also, for the OW2 free part, I thought the PVE was supposed to be included from the first purchase and come later as an update. Which was the first and main reason why people buy OW2, get the PVE.
pve was never going to be free
Big emphasis on "can make a profit back".
Remember, the house always wins.
@@vivelespatat2670 fr, the only way youd make a profit would be if you got something really valiable in your first few tours
But the longer you go the less profitable it becomes in the long run
Gonna echo this yet again, because some people need to hear it:
MVM IS NOT “PROFITABLE”, IT IS AN ADDICTIVE RANDOMIZED GAMBLING FORM, AND JUST LIKE ALL OTHER GAMBLING: YOU WILL LOOSE MORE MONEY THAN YOU WIN.
Otherwise, we’ll said.
and we’re ignoring the part where you can play mvm without spending a single dollar, if you dont feel like gambling
3:20 the Forest music in the background of A Hat In Time xD i love it XD
Love the intro ❤👍
I feel your frustration 🫠
Destiny 2 forcing people that want to actually play a story to shell out even more cash every update is always a fun one
Excellent use of the Port Ormos theme I must say.
This video and a community event earlier this year have gotten me interested in community MvM maps in a way I haven't been before.
YOOOOO I MISSED THIS VIDEOS SO MUCHHHH
Team Fortress 2's Summer Update for this year is having it's submissions on the workshop locked in on May 1st, I'd love to see you cover some of the items submitted and also maybe give your thoughts on what an update for TF2 could look like after all this time without one
They could have tried something like heroes of the storm's leveling system, it was fun, allowed for variety of play and testing for different ways to play and made me want to try as many characters as possible. I mean they made that game so they probably still had people who knew how to make this limited compared the 40-50 skills but still something that would have been appreciated and better than what we got.
Would that they did, but ActiBlizzKing tends to have high turnover and low desire to return after one works for the company, so even if the people who did the base design for HotS' levelling system were still around, which is unlikely after they shuttered further development, it would be highly improbable that they would have been kept in positions that would have fostered their creativity further, and instead more likely relegated to more menial roles.
@@rayhatesu More reason why modern blizzard sucks.
3:26 hey hey no unlocking core memories like that out of nowhere.
while I wasn't too big into overwatch, it was fun for me at release when things were much more casual and nobody has any idea of what they were doing, leading to chaotic dumb fun.
overwatch's pve was what really would have gotten me into the game. it's so unfortunate where it's all ended up.
If you want something like what the OW PVE mode would have been, try vermintide 2, upgrades that persist, a vague story, characters that interact, the works
I've always bounced between the two games but find myself playing TF2 more often, this video pretty much summarized my general feelings on Overwatch 2's PVE but I have my own gripes with MvM which are the ridiculous bugs (of which won't ever be patched) which consist of rocks that bots physically won't attack you on if you are on top of them until they reach a certain point, entire waves sometimes refusing to spawn, whatever the hell backstab hitboxes are on the bots, and several others. At the very least if Overwatch 2's PvE could salvage anything at this point, it would be a functional mode that's not entirely bogged down by bugs that can make the mode feel like a joke, or just outright unplayable.
The biggest reason why MvM succeeds where OW2 fails is that MvM was actually released.
I love the designs of the OW characters and I want to play the game. I just feel like it's so hostile to the players now.
It's cool seeing you do video essays again Skymin! But try not to burn yourself out. Hope you're doing well. Much love!