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I use a 804 lab sweet at home and for espresso, I leave the hopper detached, so when the grinding ends, I use a bellows to purge the 1-1.5g that stays in the rubber connecting the inner chamber to the exit. This retention occurs to any grinding setting below 4 (it’s 1-12), for espresso I use 2.1 - 2.8.
Hi Michael, I have a theory on the cast burrs I'd love to hear your thoughts on. From what I understand, the simplistic theory has been that uniformity is better for brew and the longer tail of fines is important for espresso. Perhaps the cast burr produces a wider peak in the distribution curve, with short tails (some variety in size with very fewer particles way off the average). This allows it produce more complex brew without the bitterness of fines, and then when grinding finer (shifting the curve left), still produce a mixture of fine grind and fines for espresso. Did I explain that okay? Does the idea sound plausible?
I'll probably get this slightly wrong but here goes. I think the most interesting part of the story of these burrs was related during a story or video about the development of the Peak when after trying to come up with a proper burr for the grinder, someone decided to try every burr in their collection of discontinued burrs and the best burr they tested was this old cast burr they'd forgotten about.
There might be a way to compare cast burrs vs. non-cast burrs: The Mahlkönig E80S is available with two type of burrs that - judging from the images - appear to have the same geometry but made from different materials (cast and non-cast). The more expensive option is the cast version used also in the MK Peak and the Ditting 804/807.
What do you think of the 83mm Conical burrs used in Grinders such as the Key and HG-1 Prime etc. ? I thought they were also really versatile where they work well with coarser brew methods and espresso. Also works well for light or medium roasts. I'm hoping this Lab Sweet / Cast style burr geometry ends up being very similar in the new 64mm variety coming out by SSP and Option-O (Lagom) soon!
Two questions: 1.are all of the versions 804 the same "in the cup"? 2. Is there really nothing you;d recommend between the Ode and the Ditting and/or EK43 price level of grinders just for filter coffee? -- Diminishing returns aside, what would you consider betwwen these 'goalposts'? I enjoy your perspective, btw.
2. Baratza Vario with steel burr upgrade or Baratza Forte BG fit into the gap. If you don't mind hand grinding the Orphan Espresso Apex would produce a grind that is indistinguishable to the EK43 for ~$500
Hi ,,if casting is a good thing ( and it seems that it might be ) does that not mean that the inconsistencies of casting would contribute to sets of burrs producing different results in the cup even though cast in the same mold ?? Would that not cause a nightmare scenario in trying to find the ideal burr set??
@Marco Mathies Thanks for the info. What is the impact of different grind chamber size? Are the 804 and 807 positioned differently? Eg the one more focused on espresso and the other more on pour-over?
Hello Michael, Hope you are well and love your video (you are a real analyst). 1. I heard you mention Pennsylvania in one of your videos. I live in PA as well. What region do you live it. (East Central Here) 2. Do you know of any available roller mills for producing almost completely uniform particle distributions or which grinder would be the closest? Looking forward to your responce, Rhys
I feel like there are two things at play with cast burrs. If we think of these big cast burrs as three phases: prebreakers, second cut, and the finishing section around the edges, with cast burrs the second section is cut with round wheels where machined burrs are cut like knife blades. Even with the same median grind size there's probably some particle shaping differences going on. The second is that cast iron/cast steel has lower coefficient of friction than tool steel, because the metal is more porous and "rough" on top of just the metallurgy. Add to that, the majority of the burr is rough except for the machined finishing section, so in essence I think that the design of cast burrs make the edges of the burr do more/most of the work. So a cast burr comparatively probably has less friction and heat going on compared to a machined burr. That's especially the case when you're talking an uncoated cast burr vs a coated machined or cast burr, where almost every coating has more friction than raw metal on it's own.
SUBSCRIBING is the best way to support the channel if you want to see more like this.
Business Inquiries- michael.j.fabian.bus@gmail.com
www.patreon.com/michael_j_fabian
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Really enjoying the no nonsense purist format and esoteric knowledge. Keep em coming!
Appreciate it!
I use a 804 lab sweet at home and for espresso, I leave the hopper detached, so when the grinding ends, I use a bellows to purge the 1-1.5g that stays in the rubber connecting the inner chamber to the exit. This retention occurs to any grinding setting below 4 (it’s 1-12), for espresso I use 2.1 - 2.8.
Hi Michael, I have a theory on the cast burrs I'd love to hear your thoughts on. From what I understand, the simplistic theory has been that uniformity is better for brew and the longer tail of fines is important for espresso. Perhaps the cast burr produces a wider peak in the distribution curve, with short tails (some variety in size with very fewer particles way off the average). This allows it produce more complex brew without the bitterness of fines, and then when grinding finer (shifting the curve left), still produce a mixture of fine grind and fines for espresso. Did I explain that okay? Does the idea sound plausible?
I'll probably get this slightly wrong but here goes. I think the most interesting part of the story of these burrs was related during a story or video about the development of the Peak when after trying to come up with a proper burr for the grinder, someone decided to try every burr in their collection of discontinued burrs and the best burr they tested was this old cast burr they'd forgotten about.
Another great video! You deserve way more attention and subscribers!
There might be a way to compare cast burrs vs. non-cast burrs: The Mahlkönig E80S is available with two type of burrs that - judging from the images - appear to have the same geometry but made from different materials (cast and non-cast). The more expensive option is the cast version used also in the MK Peak and the Ditting 804/807.
What do you think of the 83mm Conical burrs used in Grinders such as the Key and HG-1 Prime etc. ? I thought they were also really versatile where they work well with coarser brew methods and espresso. Also works well for light or medium roasts.
I'm hoping this Lab Sweet / Cast style burr geometry ends up being very similar in the new 64mm variety coming out by SSP and Option-O (Lagom) soon!
Got a chance to buy this grinder. Is there any better one today?
Two questions:
1.are all of the versions 804 the same "in the cup"?
2. Is there really nothing you;d recommend between the Ode and the Ditting and/or EK43 price level of grinders just for filter coffee? -- Diminishing returns aside, what would you consider betwwen these 'goalposts'?
I enjoy your perspective, btw.
2. Baratza Vario with steel burr upgrade or Baratza Forte BG fit into the gap.
If you don't mind hand grinding the Orphan Espresso Apex would produce a grind that is indistinguishable to the EK43 for ~$500
Hi ,,if casting is a good thing ( and it seems that it might be ) does that not mean that the inconsistencies of casting would contribute to sets of burrs producing different results in the cup even though cast in the same mold ?? Would that not cause a nightmare scenario in trying to find the ideal burr set??
Right? Would love answers
@@michael_j_fabian Answers ??? I thought you would know them?? ,
Are these burs the same as the new 807 lab sweet cast burs?
@Marco Mathies 👍
@Marco Mathies Thanks for the info. What is the impact of different grind chamber size? Are the 804 and 807 positioned differently? Eg the one more focused on espresso and the other more on pour-over?
whats the difference between the 804 and the 807? Not really familiar with either
Same burrs
I bet, look and workflow. Same burrs...
Do you have experience with the Comandante C40? Does it play in the same class as a Niche or the even higher priced grinders you tested?
Haven’t used one
I think Commandante and similarly 1zpresso K series hand grinders are more high clarity (for a conical) and maybe a bit lower body vs the Niche.
Hello Michael,
Hope you are well and love your video (you are a real analyst).
1. I heard you mention Pennsylvania in one of your videos. I live in PA as well. What region do you live it. (East Central Here)
2. Do you know of any available roller mills for producing almost completely uniform particle distributions or which grinder would be the closest?
Looking forward to your responce,
Rhys
I feel like there are two things at play with cast burrs.
If we think of these big cast burrs as three phases: prebreakers, second cut, and the finishing section around the edges, with cast burrs the second section is cut with round wheels where machined burrs are cut like knife blades. Even with the same median grind size there's probably some particle shaping differences going on.
The second is that cast iron/cast steel has lower coefficient of friction than tool steel, because the metal is more porous and "rough" on top of just the metallurgy. Add to that, the majority of the burr is rough except for the machined finishing section, so in essence I think that the design of cast burrs make the edges of the burr do more/most of the work.
So a cast burr comparatively probably has less friction and heat going on compared to a machined burr. That's especially the case when you're talking an uncoated cast burr vs a coated machined or cast burr, where almost every coating has more friction than raw metal on it's own.
Pfff I want to put these burrs into the weber EG-1
Which burrs do you have on your eg-1 and what are you missing? Just curious question.
Can I get a hallelujah 🙌
It would really help your videos to show more footage of equipment instead of too much talking